Design/Meetings/2012-04-21

General

 * Date/Time: 2012-04-21, 1600 GMT (supposed start time)
 * Location: IRC, freenode, channel #libreoffice-design

Attendees

 * Maggie
 * Android272
 * Mirek2
 * alexanderW
 * astron

Log
 [12:00] == Android272 [4bb965d7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.185.101.215] has joined #libreoffice-design [12:01] <@Maggie> Hello. [12:02]  Hi how is you :) [12:03]  so I like the color flower you made its cool. [12:06] == mirek2 [d5dcf47d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.220.244.125] has joined #libreoffice-design [12:07] hi everyone [12:07] I'm here just for a very short while [12:07]  I thought you could not make it? [12:07] will leave soon [12:07]  oh [12:07]  how is you? [12:07] good [12:08] Maggie, are you done with your proposal? [12:08] nothing to add? [12:09] (I'm asking so that we can move to the next phase.) [12:10]  Im done with mine. I like yours. [12:11] :) thanks. you mentioned that on the mailing list [12:11]  I know :) [12:11]  hay where is this hackfest going on? [12:12] I think it ended [12:12] <@Maggie> Yeah I'm done. [12:12] in any case, feel free to discuss the current proposals [12:12] <@Maggie> I put up about 15 minutes ago. [12:13] alright [12:13] <@Maggie> I'm actually not too fond of my color flower. It's more of a placeholder for now until I can figure out how to do a good gradient for a color wheel. [12:13]  then why did someone bring it up? I thought they where planing on maybe working on our proposals. [12:13] that's ok -- we'll pretend it's a color wheel for now [12:13] <@Maggie> I mean it is, but it doesn't look quite how I wanted it to. [12:14] == alexanderW [~alexander@dslb-188-101-000-054.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #libreoffice-design [12:14] hi alex [12:14]  Yah, I was trying to finure that out in inscape. I have no idea how to do it. [12:14]  hi [12:14]  hello [12:14]  an issue with inkscape? [12:14] @android, maggie: I don't think it's possible to make a good color wheel with inkscape gradients [12:14] it should be with the gradient meshes in the next version, though [12:15]  It is possible in the development builds [12:15]  still looks cool thouth. cool [12:15] <@Maggie> Ah didn't know that. [12:15] <@Maggie> Just started using Inkscape. [12:15] <@Maggie> Used it to clean up my initial proposal in Pencil. [12:15] :) [12:16] So, about https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Color_Handling [12:16] <Android272> so no one got back to any of my questions on the emailing list. [12:17] <Android272> oh sorry, we starting that. [12:17] which ones do you mean? I tried to answer your questions about my proposal on the description of mockups [12:17] <Android272> shouldnt we still be working on the icons while we do whiteboards? there may be more but cant remember. [12:18] <Android272> what about icons related to the color picker. [12:19] <Android272> just seems like we are never going to get an icon set if we are only working on the whiteboards. [12:19] I also raised this on the mailing list -- I think we need an experienced icon designer for the icon pack whiteboard [12:19] and a better idea of what style the icons should have [12:20] <Android272> oh [12:20] in any case, back to color handling: I'd like to add touch-support to the scope of the whiteboard [12:20] <Android272> did not see that, when you post that. [12:20] <Android272> I thought that was in there. [12:21] nope, not yet [12:21] touch support would mean having a smaller amount of colors per palette [12:21] <Android272> oh, well I tried to make my mockup as touch friendly, but I think it looks bad :( [12:22] but it would also ease compatibility with the Android version [12:22] <Android272> not necessarily, but I do like the ones with less colors. [12:22] <alexanderW> I must say I really dig Mireks mockup [12:22] and make LibreOffice work well with Gnome or Ubuntu or Windows 8 tablets [12:22] :) thanks [12:22] <alexanderW> Having too many colors at once makes it a bit overwhelming [12:23] <Android272> yah I stoped mine after you trumped me [12:23] I agree [12:23] about the colors [12:23] <alexanderW> and in most documents people will proabaly only need a few colors which look good together [12:23] exactly [12:24] actually, I think having a choice of fewer colors in a palette might increase consistency of a document [12:24] <Android272> I agree, you only really need three of reach color. light, middle and dark [12:24] <@Maggie> Then I went a bit too far with mine. I thought I didn't have enough colors. [12:24] sorry, guys, I have to go now [12:24] <alexanderW> alright, bye [12:24] <@Maggie> bye Mirek have a good afternoon [12:24] speak to you later [12:24] == mirek2 [d5dcf47d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.220.244.125] has quit [Quit: Page closed] [12:25] <alexanderW> I'm still unsure about how to edit colors. Should it be an additional dialog or embedded in that popover? [12:26] <Android272> no, well you have enough colors, just not all of them. if you where to keep the number but have more of the color while then it would be ok. [12:26] <alexanderW> ? [12:26] <Android272> I like how Mirek did it. I do not like extra dialogs. [12:27] <Android272> I was answering maggie [12:27] <alexanderW> ah [12:28] <@Maggie> Oh did not realize it was me you were talking to. -_-; [12:28] <Android272> sorry Ill @ you next time [12:28] <@Maggie> I took out the colors with "chart 1" and all that from the rows to make space for a row for current colors and one for colors recently selected. [12:29] <@Maggie> I was trying to account for the bug which complained about how Impress handled color selection. [12:29] <Android272> whats up with that? [12:29] <Android272> the bug [12:31] <@Maggie> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=36646 [12:32] <@Maggie> Tried out what this user said and I agreed. I also tried to arrange everything in a way where the user would ideally follow this order: select mode -->choose color on wheel or enter values -->click okay if done or cancel if you don't want the color [12:32] <@Maggie> Added a small preview panel so the user can look at how the color looks on text on a white or black background [12:33] <alexanderW> What about this: "this is compounded by the lack of indication of the current [12:33] <alexanderW> colour choice in the dropdown grid." [12:34] <alexanderW> Should documents colors always be visible? [12:34] <alexanderW> or only the selected palette? [12:35] <@Maggie> Do you mean the current colors already in the document? [12:36] <alexanderW> yes [12:36] <Android272> I think that it should. yes [12:36] <@Maggie> I would say yes. That way you don't have to keep going back to your doc. to check. [12:37] <@Maggie> I'm thinking something like a color list. That way it doesn't take up space on the pallette itself. [12:37] <Android272> or what if you are switching between palettes for some reason [12:37] <Android272> it does not take up that much space. [12:38] <Android272> I mean it could, if they use a lot of colors, but we could make a way of having many colors without taking too much space [12:40] <Android272> like arrows on eather side to get to more colors. but I do not see too many people having more then 12 colors(if we use Mirek's design). though then again you could use more colors in draw or impress. [12:41] <@Maggie> Would it be possible to have the program customize how many colors are available depending on which program it is? [12:41] <@Maggie> So there's 12 colors in writer, 24 in Impress, etc. [12:41] <alexanderW> We could create different palettes [12:41] <alexanderW> for each application [12:42] <alexanderW> Don't you think that would confuse the user? [12:42] <Android272> yah, though we could have it so that it just keeps appending its self. [12:43] <Android272> no point im showing 24 blank boxes if you only use two [12:43] <@Maggie> The boxes wouldn't need to be blank. It would just show the default colors, recent picked colors, and any custom colors you've already created. [12:44] <Android272> im talking about having a different section for the document colors like this https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/f/f1/Color_picker_1.PNG [12:46] <alexanderW> Yes, I think such a section should be used [12:46] <Android272> so then, should it just keep adding to the list. [12:47] <alexanderW> I think so [12:47] <@Maggie> So for each new color added to the document --> add to list? I would think so. [12:47] <Android272> I hope you notice the difference between the text color palette and the highlight text color palette. [12:48] <@Maggie> Yeah, that wasn't discussed much. What's going to be done with it? [12:48] <alexanderW> The absence of 'custom colors'? [12:49] <Android272> So I think that the highlight text color would not have the same colors as the text color. this would apply to any color palette used. [12:49] <Android272> +document colors [12:49] <alexanderW> Why not? [12:50] <Android272> if you have not highlighted anything why would there be a document color in the highlight color palette? [12:51] <Android272> it would only show colors that you have used for highlighting. [12:52] <alexanderW> Of course [12:53] <Android272> there could be a resently used color section. if I was to do this again I would not have the custom color section, that would be under a different palette like Mirek has, where you can change to a different palette. [12:53] <alexanderW> That would also be the case for the font color [12:53] <Android272> yes [12:53] <Android272> thats what I was trying to show there. but I guess I should have put the custom color in to show that better. [12:54] <Android272> its in the description though. [12:54] <alexanderW> Doeas anyone know whether .soc files support names for colors? [12:55] <Android272> so then, should there be a resent colors, document colors, and a color palette section. [12:55] <Android272> whats a .soc? [12:55] <alexanderW> A file containing a color palette [12:56] <@Maggie> Trying to look up the documentation for the .soc file extension [12:56] <Android272> it should have the hex name, unless we or the user names it. [12:56] <Android272> but to answer the question, no I have no idea. [12:58] <Android272> you there? [12:59] <alexanderW> yes [12:59] <alexanderW> Well, I guess it's not that important [12:59] <@Maggie> you could ask the people working on OO about that [12:59] <Android272> I was just about to say that. [12:59] <@Maggie> I don't think they would mind [13:00] <Android272> I have a suggestion about something I want to tell the devs any way, but I really do not want to explain it agian. [13:01] <Android272> so again, should there be a resent colors, document colors, and a color palette section. [13:02] <alexanderW> Yes [13:02] <@Maggie> Agree. [13:03] <alexanderW> I just checked my standard.soc and yes, it supports names [13:03] <Android272> I think that the resent color section should spand across sessions. so the same colors that I used that last time I ran LO will still be there. [13:03] <alexanderW> yes [13:03] <@Maggie> Great idea. [13:04] <alexanderW> However, the color names in that file are English, but in the UI they are shown localized [13:04] <alexanderW> I don't know how that works [13:04] <Android272> well then it mite be better to just leave them with their hex names. [13:05] <alexanderW> Probably [13:06] <Android272> so I asked Mirek this in an email recently. what do you think about coming up with default palettes. like in his mockups he has the LibreOffice and android palette. should we have multiple palettes that look really good? [13:07] <Android272> this would also help down the line when we start working on themes and styles. [13:07] <@Maggie> Yes. I'm sure users have been asking for that. [13:08] <alexanderW> What do you think abou this: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:C-grad.png [13:08] <Android272> I have started a whiteboard but did not post it. are we still so posed to white to post ideas? [13:08] == astron5 [~bella@dslb-188-103-145-159.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #libreoffice-design [13:08] <alexanderW> Should that popover only be used for colors or also pictures and patterns? [13:08] heelo [13:08] <alexanderW> Hi [13:08] <@Maggie> howdy [13:09] <Android272> Hiiiiiii :) [13:09] sorry for being so late... what are you discussing? [13:09] <alexanderW> I think anything else than colors is unneccessary [13:10] <alexanderW> The color managment [13:10] <Android272> what? [13:10] oh... so youre discussing whether to show patterns, gradients, etc.? [13:10] <alexanderW> yes [13:10] <alexanderW> we agrred on showing custom colors and document colors along the selected palette [13:11] <Android272> and resent colors [13:11] <alexanderW> If neither custom colors or document coloors are used, both sections would be hidden [13:11] <Android272> yes [13:11] <alexanderW> they, too [13:12] <Android272> what where you talking about Alex "I think anything else than colors is unneccessary" [13:12] <alexanderW> In this mock-up: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:C-grad.png, Mirek also showed patterns and pictures to be part of that popover [13:13] <alexanderW> I think that makes it a bit overcrowded [13:13] <Android272> oh, no I like it. don't see what patterns we would use, or what the picture is. but I like the gradient. [13:14] <alexanderW> yeah, the gradient is fine [13:14] <Android272> think about big titles [13:14] <alexanderW> ? [13:14] <@Maggie> ? [13:15] <Android272> with the gradients, they would be horrible with small text. [13:15] == astron5 [~bella@dslb-188-103-145-159.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] [13:16] <alexanderW> Yes, but I think the users are able to decide whether they want a gradient or not [13:16] <Android272> but yes the other two do not make much seance, or at least ill have to see what Mirek is thinking. [13:16] <alexanderW> agree [13:17] == astron5 [~bella@dslb-188-106-197-183.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #libreoffice-design [13:17] <Android272> so what do you think about the different default palettes? [13:17] <alexanderW> I think 2 would be useful [13:18] <alexanderW> One rainbow-like with many colors and one with fewer colors which fit together [13:18] <@Maggie> Good idea. That way the user can have somewhere to start. [13:18] <Android272> go into writer [13:18] <Android272> and hit ctrl + F12 [13:19] <alexanderW> The table dialog? [13:19] <Android272> then click the autoformat button, and look at all the horrible table options. [13:19] <alexanderW> Ah, yes [13:20] <Android272> well there not all that bad, but they could be better. [13:20] <alexanderW> I made a whiteboard regarding that issue [13:20] <alexanderW> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboard/Table_styles [13:20] <Android272> yes, but it only salves how they are created, I want to make different palettes to choose form [13:20] <alexanderW> This could possibly replace those autoformat options [13:21] <alexanderW> So we would also need to create some table styles [13:21] <@Maggie> How would anyone create a new table style? [13:22] <Android272> I would like to have some default options for people that are not that creative, and just want to implement a good looking style. [13:22] <alexanderW> Table properties [13:22] <alexanderW> then we'd have such a tab: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:TableStyle.jpg [13:22] <alexanderW> yes [13:23] right... so, colour palettes would help here, but i think were digressing... [13:23] ? [13:23] <Android272> what would checking some of the boxes do? would it show more color options like the even/odd colors? [13:24] <Android272> well only a bit, we have discussed the color picker already. [13:25] okay [13:25] <Android272> we are still talking about color ;) [13:26] <alexanderW> Can we all agree on that: [13:26] <alexanderW> A color managment based on Mirek's proposal [13:26] <alexanderW> - no option to define a pattern or a picture [13:26] <alexanderW> - the currently used color should be highlighted [13:26] <alexanderW> - recent and document colors are shown below the selected palette [13:26] <Android272> yesss :) [13:26] <alexanderW> - custom colors would either be shown like recent and document colors or as a seperate palette [13:27] i guess we can... [13:27] <Android272> at least lest see what Mirek had inminde but I do not see what he was thinking. [13:27] <alexanderW> I'll post this to the mailing list then. [13:28] <@Maggie> I think we should include a color wheel too. [13:28] <alexanderW> @ maggie: For selecting a custom color one has several tabs in the popover, one features a colorwheel [13:28] <@Maggie> Okay. [13:29] <alexanderW> Do we have something else that's important to discuss? Otherwise I'd leave because I still need to study a bit [13:29] one of the things that i think i as a user would be uncomfortable with is that everything is in a hover window though... [13:29] <alexanderW> ah [13:29] <Android272> I just sent him an email so he can get something ready. [13:29] because hover windows are somehow not "safe"... at least not like normal windows or sidebars are... [13:29] <alexanderW> I wasn't sure whether that popover or a dialog would be better [13:30] <Android272> what? [13:31] <Android272> hover window? [13:32] the current colour selector is hovering over the document... in mireks proposal this doesnt change, but there is just so much more functionality in the same little colour selctor [13:32] +e [13:32] <Android272> @alex the meeting should not go too much longer, you could just see it later when I or maggie post it. [13:33] <Android272> so, thats how its always been. [13:34] <Android272> do people have a problem with that, I would have a bigger problem with it being a popup dialog [13:34] <Android272> I do not understand [13:36] <alexanderW> Alright bye [13:36] <Android272> see ya [13:36] well, such a hovering window just closes if you click in the wrong spot (which is the rest of the window). thus, for actually adding colours and doing other.... [13:36] bye. [13:36] whos leaving... alex or andrew? [13:36] <Android272> alex [13:36] oh [13:37] <Android272> well I think that mite be what the x in the corner may be fore. https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:C-libre.png [13:37] hehe. [13:38] we cant know for sure. [13:38] but in any case i would never expect such a hovering palette to behave like a real window [13:38] <Android272> your right, for he did not say anything about it in the description, [13:39] == alexanderW [~alexander@dslb-188-101-000-054.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #libreoffice-design [] [13:39] <Android272> I still do not see the problem, the color picker has always been this way, are people having problems with it now? [13:39] (which has its advantages btw: you need just two clicks to select a colour currently; 1 click on the toolbar icon, then 1 click on the colour) [13:40] right, it makes sense that it is this way, as i said, 2 clicks. [13:40] <Android272> ok then whats the problem? there is also click to just add the last color you used. [13:41] however, defining a colour is more involving in and of itself and you dont want to lose that "work" just because you clicked somewhere else. [13:41] (accidentally perhaps) [13:41] <Android272> ohhhh, ok. well it could save what you where doing, but not change anything. what you think [13:41] <Android272> ? [13:42] not really. even if you do that it still frustrates people a bit. [13:43] <Android272> why, they still have what they where doing. [13:43] yes, but [13:43] 1. it seems lost at first [13:43] 2. the have to click open the palette again [13:44] <Android272> or it could, when you click it again it will popup what you were doing. [13:44] <Android272> this will only frustrate people until they realize that nothing has been lost. [13:44] ah no [13:45] it will frustrate them slightly every time because their flow has been broken [13:45] and even if, we dont want people to bwe frustrated when they just try out libo [13:45] -w [13:47] <Android272> experienced [13:47] <Android272> I see no way around frustrating people with their own stupidity, and getting frustrated with something they new was going to happen, because they have experenced this many times before in many different places. [13:47] users arent stupid. by definition [13:48] users expect to be supported by the application they choose [13:48], though [13:48] <Android272> if you have a proposal to fix this then proposal it. [13:49] :) [13:49] <Android272> if not, then I still do not see a way around it. [13:50] you could have part in a palette, part in a normal window or sidebar (well sidebar wouldnt fit libo very well) [13:51] <Android272> a sidebar, like at the bottom of inkscape? [13:51] like that, yes [13:51] <Android272> not quite a sidebar but [13:51] <Android272> I do not like it, :) [13:51] you can position it at the side [13:51] <Android272> you can? I do not know I do not use that bar. [13:52] <Android272> or thats your proposal? [13:52] no, no, you can do that in inkscape and you can also drag it out, so it becomes a floating window [13:53] <Android272> gasp!!! you can!! how. I do not like it at the bottom. [13:53] oh... damn, no, i misunderstood you. [13:53] or maybe i didnt misunderstand you [13:54] <Android272> what did you/not misunderstand? [13:55] about the sidebar [13:56] <Android272> well I do not understand how that fixes the users frustration with the disappearing color picker while editing colors. [13:58] no, about inkscapes sidebar. [13:58] do you have is open? [13:58] <Android272> yah [13:58] <Android272> iv been trying to drag it out seance you said I could [13:59] <Android272> @maggie are you still here? [13:59] what you can drag out is eg the line and fill sidebar/window [13:59] you cant drag out the things that are at the bottom... [14:00] ie statusbar + palette [14:00] <@Maggie> Yeah. I'm just listening for now. [14:00] <Android272> ohhh, damn I thought you where talking about the bottom bar. I do not really like placing that in LO. [14:01] <Android272> ok [14:01] <@Maggie> I actually have a seperate whiteboard in mind but it's not about color handling so I'll wait. [14:01] ok [14:01] <Android272> will astron could you put this in a proposal and we could move on. [14:01] <Android272> ? [14:02] yeah... [14:02] i guess [14:02] <Android272> ok Maggie what you got? [14:02] <@Maggie> I'm thinking of a proposal for a minimal window mode. [14:02] <Android272> ok? [14:02] <Android272> like notepad? [14:03] <@Maggie> Not like notepad. [14:03] <Android272> perhaps like Mireks epitomy UI? http://clickortap.wordpress.com/epitomy-ui/ [14:04] <@Maggie> Yes. There was another writing program which did something like what i'm considering. [14:04] ...pages? [14:04] <@Maggie> ? [14:04] (from iwork) [14:04] <Android272> soo, then like switching to notepad? [14:04] <@Maggie> I've never used iWork so I can't say. [14:04] <Android272> me nether [14:05] never used it either but it has a nice immersive fullscreen mode [14:05] <@Maggie> More like having the bars temporarily go off screen when you're not using them. [14:05] <@Maggie> Reappear once you need them. Or have a launcher available to type in which commands you need. [14:05] <Android272> kinda like a full screen mode? or like how pages is on the ipad? [14:06] <@Maggie> Yes. [14:06] to what..? [14:06] <@Maggie> ? [14:06] "yes" to what, i meant [14:07] <@Maggie> To what Android272 replied with. [14:07] which contained two things. [14:08] <@Maggie> pages and full screen mode. [14:08] <@Maggie> I'm thinking more of the latter. [14:08] <Android272> well for the mobile app I think that it will be needed. but maybe this could be useful for netbooks. [14:10] <Android272> http://appchronicles.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/IMG_0678.png [14:10] <Android272> http://www.maclife.com/files/u53/iworkscreen2.jpg [14:10] <Android272> like that [14:11] <@Maggie> Ah. So go towards something like that? [14:11] <Android272> well could you make a proposal and post it somewhere? have we said whether we can make new whiteboards? [14:12] <@Maggie> I thought new whiteboards weren't allowed for now. [14:12] <Android272> your page? [14:12] <@Maggie> Something like this isn't an immediate concern but it's just something that's been in my head for a while. [14:13] right [14:13] <@Maggie> Oh user page? Certainly if I can do it. [14:13] <Android272> ok do we have anything else or are we done. [14:13] <Android272> ? [14:13] <@Maggie> Put my proposal on the user page. [14:13] <Android272> yes [14:13] <@Maggie> Other than that I'm done. [14:13] <Android272> ok, you astron? [14:13] i guess. [14:14] was mirek here? [14:14] <Android272> yah [14:14] <Android272> for a bit [14:14] oh. [14:14] <Android272> ill post it soon so you can read. [14:14] cool [14:15] <Android272> all right then we are done for the week. [14:16] so... then, bye... [14:16] <@Maggie> good-bye [14:16] <Android272> see ya [14:16] == astron5 [~bella@dslb-188-106-197-183.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #libreoffice-design [] [14:17] <Android272> where are these meeting notes placed? [14:18] <Android272> ok got it. [14:20] == Maggie [6368baab@gateway/web/freenode/ip.99.104.186.171] has quit [Quit: Page closed]