Design/Meetings/2013-10-27

Attendees

 * ahmd
 * mirek2

Topics

 * Default template
 * Fonts
 * Flat icons

Log
[12:20] <@ahmd> i'm working on the template code right now [12:21] excellent :) [12:21] on the code? [12:21] <@ahmd> yes [12:21] <@ahmd> it should be done in C++ [12:21] now I'm confused [12:22] what exactly are you working on? [12:22] <@ahmd> default template [12:23] <@ahmd> the templates i've done before were just to show how things will look [12:23] what part of that involves C++? [12:23] Isn't the template just an OTT file? [12:24] <@ahmd> yes, but we don't have mechanism right now to set an OTT file as a default template [12:24] <@ahmd> + loading a file will affect the start-up time of writer [12:25] oh, ok [12:26] have you made any edits to your proposal after my comments? [12:26] <@ahmd> no, not yet [12:27] you'll do that after you've played with the C++ code? [12:27] <@ahmd> yes [12:28] ok [12:28] <@ahmd> we need to update the wiki page [12:28] <@ahmd> regarding the 12pt size [12:28] <@ahmd> the default liberation family size is 11pt [12:28] <@ahmd> what do you think? [12:29] as I said in my mail, I'd prefer 12pt [12:29] that's been default for now and it's more legible [12:29] and it brings us closer to our goal of 2-3 alphabets per line [12:30] <@ahmd> yes, but most office suites use 11pt [12:30] <@ahmd> anyway, 12pt looks good [12:30] a) who cares what the others are doing [12:30] <@ahmd> you're right [12:31] b) is that really true? I think Mac:Office uses 12pt, need to check the others [12:31] <@ahmd> anyway i'll compare 11pt and 12pt on printed paper [12:31] abiword is using 12pt [12:31] openoffice is as well, of course [12:31] <@ahmd> old software uses 12pt [12:31] <@ahmd> but all the new ones use 11pt [12:31] <@ahmd> there is a reason for that? [12:32] I think that the most recent build of Mac Office uses 12pt [12:32] but I can't check right now [12:33] <@ahmd> i'll check it tomorrow, and i'll try to find why 11pt [12:33] <@ahmd> if there isn't a strong reason i'll go with 12pt [12:33] I think Pages might be using 12pt as well, though, again, can't check [12:35] From Butterick: "The average line length should be 45–90 char­ac­ters (in­clud­ing spaces)." [12:36] <@ahmd> what about the margins of the page? [12:36] <@ahmd> do you think we need to change them? [12:36] I would keep them as they are -- I don't see a need to change them, and the defaults have worked well [12:37] <@ahmd> ok good [12:37] but I wouldn't object to changing them if you wanted to and had reasons to [12:37] <@ahmd> no, i wanted to make sure [12:38] <@ahmd> for the headings, i've removed all the bold styling [12:38] <@ahmd> what do you think? [12:38] about margins: might be useful to read http://practicaltypography.com/page-margins.html [12:38] (I haven't done so yet, but will later) [12:39] ahmd: I gave you my opinion on the mailing list [12:39] <@ahmd> yes, i'm lazy to open the mail again :P [12:39] I'm afraid it will be harder to distinguish the different heading levels [12:39] especially when there's a lot of body text in between [12:40] ideally, some headings would be bold, some italic, some both, some neither [12:41] <@ahmd> I'll try to find the best balance, especially for small headings [12:41] <@ahmd> anyway, bold still looks good [12:44] <@ahmd> by the way,we'll contact the liberation font original designer this week [12:44] to help with further refinement? [12:45] <@ahmd> we want to merge Arabic font + to see what to improve for Latin [12:45] great :) [12:45] <@ahmd> yes :) [12:45] it might be good to contact Google's Dave Crossland as well [12:46] they've contributed to the font under the Tinos/Arimo/Cousine names [12:48] anyway, really happy to see work being done on those [12:48] too bad we're stuck with the fonts, though [12:48] <@ahmd> still we can improve them [12:49] definitely [12:49] any word on the Calibri/Cambria alternatives? [12:49] (Carlito and Caladea, I believe) [12:49] <@ahmd> i didn't look into that [12:50] <@ahmd> we can design a new metrically compatible font, but that needs time and resources [12:50] we don't have to design a font, they've already been designed [12:51] see the "Carlito + Caladea" thread on the mailing list [12:51] (I was just wondering if you heard anything new, given that you're looking into fonts) [12:52] I don't expect them to be nearly as good as the Liberation fonts given their maturity [12:53] so they're probably not fit for use in the default template yet [12:53] <@ahmd> good, I'll look into them and see how much work needed to improve them + if they lack Arabic alphabet [12:54] <@ahmd> regarding the styling system in LO [12:54] yes? [12:54] <@ahmd> is there any proposals? [12:55] on what exactly? [12:56] <@ahmd> first on the Style items on the Style list [12:56] as in, which styles to get rid of? [12:56] <@ahmd> for example we can replace Heading with Heading 1 [12:57] <@ahmd> reducing the number of headings to two main headings and two subheadings... [12:57] Heading as a style is useful to style all the headings [12:57] <@ahmd> yes, but we can change the parent heading [12:58] <@ahmd> to heading 1 [12:58] but that would make things more complicated [12:58] as now you couldn't style Heading 1 individually [12:58] I'd keep the parent styles as they are [12:58] we could present them in a better way, though [12:58] <@ahmd> since i'm already on the code [12:59] and if we're getting rid of headings, I'd only get rid of 7-10 [12:59] <@ahmd> i'm looking at what others are doing [13:00] we definitely shouldn't have just 2 headings [13:01] what are others doing? [13:02] <@ahmd> iwork for example have two headings and two subheadings [13:02] <@ahmd> we'll still support other documents with as much headings [13:02] are you using iwork, or are you basing that on screenshots? [13:03] I think iWork shows styles based on context [13:03] <@ahmd> my flatmate has iworks on his ipad + macbook [13:03] so it shows headng sublevels only once you use the superior headings [13:04] being a user of styles, I would say that most styles we have are actually important to have [13:04] <@ahmd> i've tried the ipad one and it doesn't give me more than two headings! (i have to double check) [13:04] but that they should be visible only in certain circumstances [13:05] i.e. you don't need the Footer style if you don't have a footer [13:05] <@ahmd> i'll test it more and tell you my findings, if you've access to a new version of ipages that will be great [13:05] not right now [13:05] <@ahmd> anytime [13:06] and not a new version [13:06] only the old one [13:06] <@ahmd> i think it's free now [13:06] just with new computers and ipads [13:06] <@ahmd> aha [13:06] <@ahmd> :/ [13:06] I don't own any Apple device, btw [13:07] I also rely on loaners for this kind of testing [13:07] as for tablet/phone apps, I'm not sure that's a fair comparison, given that they tend to be quite limited compared to their desktop counterparts [13:07] <@ahmd> we've macbook pro at the office, i'll ask to buy iworks for it [13:08] you can download the demo [13:08] I mean, the 30-day trial [13:08] <@ahmd> ok good [13:08] <@ahmd> back to styles [13:09] <@ahmd> there are many things like Contents 1~10 [13:09] I also have lots of screenshots of iWork, should you need to check anything [13:09] <@ahmd> List1~10 [13:09] <@ahmd> Numbering 1~10 [13:10] <@ahmd> User Index 1~10 [13:10] never used those styles [13:10] <@ahmd> and most of them has exactly the same settings [13:10] not sure what they're for [13:10] I assume you mean the paragraph styles, not the list styles [13:10] <@ahmd> yes [13:11] and I assume they refer to the individual list levels [13:11] would be good to do some user research here [13:11] find out if these styles are being used [13:12] perhaps Bjorn Balazs might be willing to help? [13:12] <@ahmd> yes, but most of these have the same styling settings [13:13] sure, but they might be useful for people who want different styling settings [13:13] I imagine it would be quite laborious to define these styles by yourself [13:13] <@ahmd> yes, but the user can add anything he wants [13:14] <@ahmd> since for example Contents 1 ~ 10 are exactly the same [13:14] yes, but there's also the question of linking these styles to the individual items [13:15] not sure where that's done, btw [13:15] <@ahmd> ok, but we've to look at that when we finish the new templtae [13:16] is it even possible to link paragraph styles manually to list levels? [13:16] <@ahmd> i believe yes [13:17] ahmd: I wouldn't get rid of any styles for now [13:17] <@ahmd> OK, sure [13:17] ahmd: how? [13:18] <@ahmd> I'll not remove anything! [13:18] <@ahmd> until we get the new template out [13:18] <@ahmd> then we'll look together what should be done [13:19] == sveinki [~Thunderbi@212.30.246.130] has joined #libreoffice-design [13:19] <@ahmd> i'm not to take any step in this area alone ;) [13:19] by "new template", I hope you mean a revised version of the current template, not a new from-the-ground-up template [13:19] ahmd: great :) [13:19] <@ahmd> yes [13:20] <@ahmd> i'm leaving the office now [13:20] <@ahmd> is there anything else to discuss? [13:21] any progress on icons? [13:21] have the volunteers I directed to you made any contributions? [13:21] <@ahmd> yes [13:21] <@ahmd> :) [13:21] <@ahmd> they're doing great [13:22] excellent :) [13:22] <@ahmd> Also we've added more icons and improved others [13:22] how is export working, btw? [13:23] what's the mechanism for naming icons? [13:23] <@ahmd> you've to make an empty square over the icon's elements and group them together [13:24] <@ahmd> the square should be the exact size of the intended icon [13:24] <@ahmd> then right-click [13:24] <@ahmd> >Object Properties [13:24] <@ahmd> and in the ID field give it the exact name of the icon without the extention [13:24] you're welcome to use the tango-testing icon sheets [13:25] <@ahmd> thanks :) [13:25] they now include rectangles for all the icons from the cmd folder [13:25] the rectangles for exporting are on a separate layer [13:25] <@ahmd> nice idea :) [13:25] <@ahmd> we've them on the same layer [13:26] <@ahmd> OK, I think I've to go now