Design/Meetings/2012-06-02


 * Date/Time: 2012-06-02, 1600 UTC (the time below is 2 hours ahead of UTC)
 * Location: IRC, channel #libreoffice-design

Attendees

 * AlexanderW
 * Astron
 * Mirek2
 * spaetz
 * willubuntu

Tasks
Alex/Mirek2
 * Find authors of Gnome icons and put them up on this spreadsheet

Mirek2
 * Put up an About dialog whiteboard
 * Put up a Splash screen playground
 * Put up a design principles whiteboard
 * Watch the "Designing Firefox" video
 * Restructure the design wiki

Log
[17:59]  hi [17:59] == astron247 [~frootzowr@dslb-088-072-060-098.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #libreoffice-design [17:59] hello... [17:59] <@mirek2> hi [17:59]  Hello [18:00] <@mirek2> astron, any progress on icons? [18:00] ah,... [18:01] it does take longer than you'd think to make this stupid list of stuff that can be replaced (especially if ze frank has a new show)... so no, contrary to plan, i have not contacted lapo again [18:02] <@mirek2> :) okay [18:02] <@mirek2> you could publish what you have so far and we could work on it collaboratively [18:03] <@mirek2> if it's too much work [18:03] <@mirek2> what do you think? [18:04] http://bit.ly/LoaBvz [18:05] there's 14 more svg's to go... [18:05]  you convert them manually? [18:05] == willubuntu [~Will@82-212-132-215.teledisnet.be] has joined #libreoffice-design [18:06] <@mirek2> hi will [18:06] ah, no i check manually where to put the icons [18:06] the above is also only a list... [18:06] not a zip, like i sent you last time [18:08] <@mirek2> if you'd like to collaborate on this, perhaps we could upload the spreadsheet to Google Docs? [18:08] Hi mirek2 [18:08] anyway the fourteen svgs in question... [18:08] applications-accessories.svg          packages.svg [18:08] applications-development.svg  edit-delete.svg    paper-sheets.svg [18:08] applications-engineering.svg  insert-image.svg   preferences-system.svg [18:08] applications-office.svg      insert-link.svg [18:08] cabinets.svg                 insert-object.svg  x-office-presentation.svg [18:08] computers.svg [18:08] (assuming you have cloned gnome-icon-theme already and are in the src folder...) [18:09] oh sorry ... didn't see your answer there... [18:10] <@mirek2> Aren't "applications-" + something icons meant for application categories? [18:10]  Would that matter? [18:10] yes... still, there's no reason they can't be used another way, if they're generic enough, right? [18:11] i've still tried not to dilute the meanings of the icons too much, though [18:11] <@mirek2> Frankly, I'd prefer to keep one icon per meaning [18:11] <@mirek2> only allow this dilution in special cases [18:12] <@mirek2> do we need the accessories, development, engineering, and office icons? [18:12] they contain nice rulers etc., so they are mostly building blocks for other icons [18:12] the office icon might eg. give us the pen [18:13] <@mirek2> Lapo offered to make us some missing ones -- perhaps it'd be better than trying to extract the items from these SVGs? [18:13]  Otherwise there are only used in Kpackagekit, USC and alacarte etc. ,right? [18:13]  *they are [18:14] sure, but he probably doesn't want to start from scratch just because we didn't license them first [18:14]  If they fit, it would be nice to avoid further duplication of effort [18:14] <@mirek2> hold on -- I thought Lapo was the author here? [18:14] i've spoken to lapo too and he seemed pretty astonished at the "4000 image files per theme" stat i cited [18:14] lapo and jakub in most cases [18:15]  Who's lapo? [18:15] <@mirek2> I'm sure Lapo can get the permission to reuse some elements if he needs it [18:15] so, from a collaboration standpoint, what would make most sense is, if one of you could click his way through git.gnome.org [18:15]  the real name, I mean [18:15] <@mirek2> @alex: one of the main Gnome icon authors [18:15] and find out who they authors are. [18:15] lapo calamandrei [18:16]  ah, thanks [18:16] i.e. go here: http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-icon-theme/tree/src [18:16] and click on the logs of every individual file... [18:17] <@mirek2> wouldn't it be more productive if we knew which icons we want to use elements from? [18:18] ... so, yes, not every file, just the ones listed in the left column in my spreadsheet [18:18] + the 14 others i quoted above [18:18] <@mirek2> hold on -- do we really need the applications icons? [18:19] it seems like a good idea to me. [18:19]  agree [18:19] even if we do have them, the theme will still be spotty enough, so... [18:20] <@mirek2> ok [18:20] <@mirek2> mind if I upload icons.ods to Google Docs? [18:20] guess not, though sheet two is very much WIP, you might want to remove it for the moment [18:22] <@mirek2> sorry, my connection fell [18:22] <@mirek2> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvRBf0YVtxzkdHNFc21nUktwQmFaN1dWZkFKaHVHT0E [18:23] (continuing from above) ie. there's 4000 icons, we should be able to replace about 600–700 of them, maybe 1000 will be okay, but 2000 won't be [18:24] (hopefully only the long tail) [18:24] <@mirek2> we don't need to hurry -- just take care of the priority cases [18:24] <@mirek2> quality over quantity [18:24]  Should we try to use the same new gnome icons in cases where it's suitable? [18:25] <@mirek2> that's why I'm a bit skeptical about including icons that were made for different symbolism [18:25] <@mirek2> @alex: what do you mean? [18:26] @mirek: can give me edit access, please? [18:26] <@mirek2> sorry, forgot [18:26]  If LibO uses two different icons where a single Gnome icon would fit [18:26] thanks! [18:27] <@mirek2> @alex: yes, I believe we should [18:27] <@mirek2> however, each icon should carry a single meaning, not several [18:28] okay... so what's with "next comment" v/ "next page"? [18:30] <@mirek2> where? [18:31] in libreoffice... there's some kind of comments toolbar and there's print preview [18:31] o wait that should read page preview [18:31] (regina educated us about that (mis)feature on ux-advise, if you want to know more) [18:32]  which mis-feature? [18:33] So now I'm really there :D [18:33] Who is behind LibO Design account on Google+ [18:33] ? [18:33] alx and mirek [18:33]  Hi [18:33] +e [18:33] (mostly) [18:33] but lets not get carried away here... [18:34] <@mirek2> @astron: I've invited you, but I guess you didn't accept the invitation? [18:34] right. [18:34] (i could though= [18:34] but im not too much of a socialite... [18:34] <@mirek2> if you don't want to take part, that's fine [18:34] <@mirek2> I just wanted to make sure you didn't accidentally miss it [18:35] <@mirek2> (since I sent it to your "heinzless spam" address...) [18:35] i hope thats okay with you... [18:35] I wanted to know if you're responsible for the new About... dialog GUI design. [18:35]  sure [18:35] andrew higginson... [18:35] <@mirek2> @astron: yes, that's ok [18:36] <@mirek2> @will: nope [18:36] <@mirek2> at least as far as I'm aware, the Design team wasn't involved [18:36] Ok nice. I found this new one especially ugly and heavy (concerning source code needed). [18:36] i am not too happy about it ... i think andrew had further plans, but he didnt follow up on his initial commit [18:37] I wanted to redesign it and integrate the Update Manager in it as Firefox and Google Chrome are doing. [18:37] well, he wanted to remove the window border, to make it look like one of those fancy adobe things, but it seemed that was hard to do within libo [18:37] <@mirek2> I would think that would be more trouble than it's worth [18:37] do you already have usable update code..? [18:38] Not yet. [18:38] I won't code if it isn't integrated. [18:38] <@mirek2> Could you post a sketch/mockup of your idea first? [18:38] if what isnt integrated? [18:38] New About... dialog. [18:39] i think i am misunderstanding you here... [18:40] you are trying to say that you wont code a new about dialog if it wont be integrated or that you wont code update functionality if that isnt integrated into about? [18:40] astron247: the second solution obviously :D [18:41] I know I have to provide some mockups before coding. [18:41] that would be very cool :) [18:41] But I wnated to know if it would be interesting to integrate update manager in the About dialog. [18:42] <@mirek2> You could post to the UX design mailing list to get some feedback from developers... [18:42] <@mirek2> https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise [18:42] astron247: You will understand me correctly when I will reboot on Arch Linux :d [18:43] mirek2: I'm already registered on Nabble [18:43] sorry, i am on ubuntu here... i can only guess what you meant by that... [18:44] anyway, [for windows/mac] i don't care so much, if it is in options or in about, as long as it automatically shows a notification and then downloads the (minimal) bits to update and then i don't have to do a full reinstallation [18:45] mirek2: Ok I'll do that. As the end of my exam are on June 22. I will provide some screenshot after this date. [18:45] As I'm involved in quite a lot of Open Source projects (FileZilla, UltraDefrag) I can't provide them earlier. [18:45] <@mirek2> ok, great [18:45] <@mirek2> it's not a pressing matter [18:45] cool :) [18:45] <@mirek2> btw, does LibreOffice update automatically on Mac/Windows now? [18:45] thanks! [18:45] no [18:46] mirek2: Not yet [18:46] you still have to download/install manually [18:46] <@mirek2> are there plans to do that? [18:46] which is a Major Point of Pain [18:46] Itis was I was looking for when I rebooted on Windows to update LibO to 3.5.4 [18:46] mirek2: Not yet. [18:47] <@mirek2> alright [18:47] phew... i guess you could ask christian lohmaier ..? [18:47] dunno for sure who should/could be working on this [18:47] I wanted to get involved as Gsoc this year to do it, but I registered too late and futhermore I've a student job during the summer. [18:48] <@mirek2> :/ too bad [18:48] <@mirek2> I see that you're working with MS -- just out of curiosity, what piece of software are you working on? [18:48] Now I've the answer to my first question, the second one now :D [18:49] <@mirek2> go ahead [18:51] will? you still there? [18:52] mirek2: I'm Microsoft Student Partner, but I have not been quite involved this year. MS wanted to show me how Kinect, Windows 8 Apps and so one are working ... I attended all the lectures, but refused to code for them (as lack of time, I've quite busy with school lately). (And Idon't like MS very much). [18:52] Maybe next year, they will force me to work on it to be still MSP [18:52] <@mirek2> ok [18:52] astron247: Yeah, I'm doing several things at a time [18:52] <@mirek2> go ahead with your question [18:52] mirek2: Ok. [18:53] I saw that Alexander already designed a cool LibO icon for the template repository. What are you waiting to integrate it? [18:54] <alexander_> I contacted Andreas Mantke (who coded the repository plugin) some time ago but didn't get a response [18:54] I know the guy behind the template and extensions repository isn't enough reactive... [18:54] <alexander_> Maybe I could email him again [18:54] alexander_: Yes it's the mainproblem [18:54] I sent some a emails to him but never answered me. [18:55] <@mirek2> alright [18:55] <@mirek2> any other questions? [18:55] A yes... concerning the templates proposal [18:56] wil you add some more fonts int LibreOffice ? [18:56] <alexander_> Not into 3.6 [18:56] <@mirek2> maybe in the future... [18:56] It would be great if Robotto, ,Open Sans and Droid Sans would be integrated. All by templated are based on it. [18:56] <alexander_> I talked to Björn Michaelsen and apparently that would cause some problems regarding the size of LibO [18:56] Do you now that the default font in LibO on Windows is still Times New Roman [18:56] <alexander_> ? [18:57] <alexander_> Not Liberation Sans? [18:57] It depends. Last time I checked it was still Times New Roman [18:57] <alexander_> Can we go on? [18:57] I will launch a new VM (from scratch) if you want [18:58] alexander_: Yes. [18:58] <@mirek2> I trust you [18:58] <@mirek2> should I contact the UX advise team about this? [18:59] mirek2: It's possible an old registry key was responsible of it. I'm checking. [18:59] <@mirek2> or perhaps it's because of compatibility? [18:59] mirek2: So wait before sending anything tp the UX advise team [18:59] mirek2: perhaps yes [18:59] nah, i think it's quite possible we're still using tnr/arial as defaults [19:00] these do have better hinting on win though [19:00] <@mirek2> do you think it's better to use them by default? [19:00] (ms's cleartype becomes dreadful when it hist upon fonts that weren't made especially for it) [19:00] == spaetz [~spaetz@2001:4b00:180:801:211:32ff:fe0d:ee0c] has joined #libreoffice-design [19:01] mmh, one hour too late, I suspect :) [19:01] dunno... but liberation sans at least looks even worse than arail to me [19:01] well, hi [19:01] hi :) [19:01] astron247: I made some tests. Liberation Sans is quite ugly on Windows. [19:01] <@mirek2> hi [19:01] <@mirek2> @spaetz: these meetings drag on for hours, so you're ok :) [19:01] this g+ thing does seem to have consequences... wow. [19:02] nice [19:02] <@mirek2> :D [19:03] astron247: The best font that looks like great on all platforms: Open Sans and Robotto designed by Google. Seems this latter made some work on it. [19:03] <@mirek2> what about Google's Tinos, Arimo, and Cousine? [19:03] mirek2: Never tried [19:03] <@mirek2> there was talk about adopting those as defaults... [19:04] <@mirek2> @will: could you? [19:04] I just tried fonts looking like Calibri (just to find a free alternative) [19:04] by the way, these fonts will be renamed to liberation soon, and then will get into libo [19:04] mirek2: I will try, but I haven't my macOS VM [19:05] to make some tests on this platform too. [19:05] <@mirek2> that's ok [19:05] i.e. redhat are replacing their liberation fonts with googles modified versions [19:05] <@mirek2> I have a friend with a Mac, so I can test it later [19:05] <@mirek2> @astron: what about Liberation Sans Narrow? [19:06] this one won't get replaced [19:06] <@mirek2> alright [19:06] but i think mmeeks said sth about having been automatically generated anyway... [19:06] <@mirek2> :D [19:06] <@mirek2> ok, any other questions? [19:09] okay... back to icons for another moment? [19:09] BTW, +1 for removing the "!"logo in the status bar for modified docs. It really does not add information. [19:09] (sorry will shut up until it's my turn) [19:09] ah, another person saying that... [19:09] okay... back to icons for another moment? [19:09] BTW, +1 for removing the "!"logo in the status bar for modified docs. It really does not add information. [19:09] (sorry will shut up until it's my turn) [19:09] ah, another person saying that... [19:11] <@mirek2> I'll ask Kendy about it on Tuesday [19:11] <@mirek2> what do you think would be a fitting alternative, though? [19:11] <@mirek2> The asterisk? [19:11] right, so "(modified)" in title [19:11] seems best to me [19:11] personally, I love the grayed out save button for unmodified docs [19:12] <@mirek2> Always, or only if the save icon is always enabled? [19:12] but an (unmodified) in the title would be good too [19:12] <@mirek2> @spaetz: there's a long discussion on the mailing list about this [19:12] yes, that's why I bring it up. I read it :) [19:12] so, you know you can have that already? [19:12] personally, I am not convinced that people want to "save" an .odt because they have changed the zoom level. [19:13] so the grayed out save button is ok, in my opinion. [19:13] right, me neither. [19:13] <@mirek2> one of the people on the mailing list uses it [19:13] or rather: i think the zoom level is a more personal setting [19:13] it should be saved, but not in the document. [19:13] <@mirek2> I've checked gedit -- comes with the same always-on save button [19:14] mirek2: ahh good to know, for consistency reasons. [19:14] Anyway, remove it from the status bar. :-) [19:14] <@mirek2> well, lxde's leafpad doesn't, so there's little consistency there [19:14] i see zero point in sending so. a file with my zoom level, when that person has a completely different screen [19:14] @lxde isn't really gnome [19:14] astron247: I am always annoyed about the feature. [19:14] @mirek: ... [19:15] <@mirek2> @astron: libreoffice isn't gnome [19:15] I collaborate with people and I always use "optimal" zoom. Whenever I get a doc from others, it has a weird zoom hardcoded [19:15] i should really bring this point up on the list... [19:15] Because my collaborators are weird and use a hardcoded zoom level :) [19:15] <@mirek2> is it just about zoom level, or about view settings in general? [19:15] view settings in general [19:16] mirek2: I'd have to think about it, but the "zoom level" really annoys me. [19:16] but zoom level is a prticular example [19:16] <@mirek2> as I can see this might be useful for showing comments right away, showing characters, changes, ... [19:16] especially when exchanging docs with collaborators [19:16] <@mirek2> anyway, I'll talk to Kendy about this [19:16] thanks :) [19:17] <@mirek2> :) [19:17] <@mirek2> any other matters? [19:17] not from me. [19:17] okay... icons... [19:17] mirek, alex, would either of you be able to go through git gnome org? [19:18] <@mirek2> to find the authors? [19:18] yes [19:18] <alexander_> sure [19:18] (boring very much) [19:19] <@mirek2> we could both take care of it [19:19] <@mirek2> post them to https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvRBf0YVtxzkdHNFc21nUktwQmFaN1dWZkFKaHVHT0E#gid=0 [19:19] i think you don't need to care much about the pre-git era, and i think you can safely disregard benjamin berg auto-edits [19:20] <@mirek2> alright [19:20] oh, and because of (l)gpl source clause, the important files are the svgs [19:20] <@mirek2> yes [19:20] <@mirek2> is that all for icons? [19:20] <alexander_> Next topic? [19:20] cool [19:21] no... [19:21] there's the status bar icons thing. [19:21] <alexander_> Which icons? [19:21] <@mirek2> yes? [19:21] should i try to replace your (mirek's) new plu/minus things? [19:21] +s [19:21] probably not, right? [19:22] <@mirek2> if you have a better proposal, you can post it on the mailing list [19:22] <@mirek2> basically, I just wanted the icons to be minimal and out of the way [19:22] <alexander_> I like them [19:22] well, there's list-add, list-remove from gnome, but those arent minimal, they're blue [19:22] and beveled [19:23] <alexander_> I think it's preferable to not make them stand out too much [19:23] and we'd need to adapt them to 10x10 [19:23] <@mirek2> ideally, I believe we should use monochrome icons [19:23] <@mirek2> Gnome has a separate set for those [19:23] <alexander_> -symbolic [19:23] just for the status bar you mean? [19:23] <@mirek2> no, for monochrome icons [19:23] <alexander_> monochrome ones for status purposes [19:24] <@mirek2> symbolic icons, yes [19:25] i guess i dont quite follow ... anyway, keep your icons for now. [19:25] <@mirek2> so we're still consistent with Gnome in having some monochrome icons [19:25] gnome seems to shift increasingly towards (ugh) monochrome only ... see documents [19:26] <alexander_> Monochrome only? [19:26] <@mirek2> @astron: I don't think that's a bad thing, though [19:27] <@mirek2> both Holo and Metro use monochrome icons as well [19:27] i guess. all their new flagship apps seem (for now basically boxes and documents) use monochrome icons [19:27] <@mirek2> and Google Docs [19:27] i hope i don't hurt you hear, but already i cant stand google spreadsheets :) [19:27] dull icons are one part of it [19:28] <@mirek2> we have a very different view on this [19:28] create 2 themes :-) astron/mirek -theme [19:28] <@mirek2> I like it when the interface gets out of the way [19:29] we knew that before i think... but yeah if everyones moving towards monochrome stuff, we might want to go there too [19:29] <@mirek2> we'll need to create a monochrome theme for Android [19:29] @mirek: it just gets indecipherable [19:29] <@mirek2> one by one, though [19:29] colorful can get out of my way too, for the record. Too plain becomes often undistinguishable [19:29] <@mirek2> I agree [19:29] * spaetz ducks [19:30] <@mirek2> that's why I proposed using a second color to designate context [19:30] "metro" is out of the way, but probably also barely usable for document editing [19:30] mirek2: I like the color-for-context idea a lot, yes [19:30] read about it [19:31] <@mirek2> :) thanks [19:31] but that colour coding is helpful for you, not for users (at least unless they have an IQ of at least 120) [19:31] (or so) [19:31] <@mirek2> @astron: I don't think so [19:31] <@mirek2> they've caught on to blue for document, orange for presentations pretty quickly [19:32] <@mirek2> and if we're consistent with the color scheme, they'll catch on to "blue" for text, "yellow" for shapes as well [19:32] maybe ... but you had at least thirty colours in your proposal [19:33] (that might have been an inadvertent exaggeration9 [19:33] <alexander_> I think the hues stayed the same, right? [19:33] <@mirek2> yeah [19:33] <@mirek2> they did [19:33] <@mirek2> the saturation varied by hierarchy [19:33] <@mirek2> and lightness [19:33] <@mirek2> (i.e. paragraphs are superior to text, so they're darker) [19:34] <@mirek2> this is not really anything that has a chance of being implemented anytime soon, though [19:34] <@mirek2> perhaps we should get back to something more current [19:34] right... [19:34] <@mirek2> is there anything else about the icon theme we need to discuss? [19:34] not sure. [19:35] but we might as well go on to the splash screen [19:35] <@mirek2> could I post a Playground page for that? [19:35] yes, please! [19:35] i am happy to give away the work of announcing that! [19:36] <@mirek2> it seems more appropriate than a whiteboard, as it's something we could continually improve with ease [19:36] right. [19:36] <alexander_> What is the motivation change that? [19:36] <alexander_> using those motif triangles? [19:36] yes, mostly, i think [19:36] <alexander_> IIRC [19:37] it also looks bad together with our new about dialogue [19:37] argh... [19:37] <alexander_> argh? [19:38] mirek2: Did you received my PM? [19:38] <@mirek2> right, sorry [19:38] astron247: What's up with the about dialog [19:39] it doesnt fit in with our splash screen [19:39] astron247: It's the problem I wanted to solve [19:40] and it does at least have its own idiosynchrasies [19:40] how so? [19:40] take the TDF logo and pick up to the left (as Fireofx did) [19:40] and I took the LibreOffice logo I put to the top [19:40] do you have a patch screenshot at the ready? [19:41] astron247: I'm still on Win :D [19:41] if yes, then it might be possible to get this into 3.6 [19:41] astron247: Concerning the code. I've just to recalculate position and it's done [19:42] the background is determinating the dilog size [19:43] ok, but can you get that on the list before june 10? [19:43] astron247: With the complete code too? [19:43] yes. that's when the hard feature freeze starts. [19:44] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleasePlan/3.6 [19:44] ok astron247 it would be done [19:45] if you cant dont worry, but t would be cool if we had three thigns before shipping 3.6: [19:46] * a close button (for gnome 3 users ...) [19:46] * buttons below the copyright not above it [19:46] * removal of that weird bezel [19:46] sorry if i am pressuring much here... [19:46] <alexander_> @Mirek2: here's the folder for the template picker: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Templatefolder.png [19:46] <@mirek2> @astron: could you post a screenshot (don't have the version you're talking about installed) [19:47] https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=31022 [19:47] <@mirek2> @Alex: That's great for the desktop, though we might want something more Holo-themed for Android [19:47] thats the bug, screenshot upcoming [19:48] <alexander_> I thought we#d use the blueprint on android? [19:49] astron247: I'm completely against dialog bar disappearance. Indeed on some system like me (often I don't use desktop manager), the About dialog couldn't be closed :D [19:49] <@mirek2> oh, right; sorry, got confused [19:49] <@mirek2> @willubuntu: dialog bar? [19:50] <@mirek2> you mean title bar? [19:50] mirek2: Yes title bar [19:50] <@mirek2> me too [19:51] http://bit.ly/JCPynv [19:51] <@mirek2> what was wrong with the old About dialog? [19:51] <@mirek2> I liked that one much, much better. [19:52] <alexander_> I think it showed some unneccesary info [19:52] that and it apparently lacked pizzazz [19:52] <alexander_> that would be confusing for submitting bugs [19:52] <alexander_> pizzazz? [19:52] as you can read on the bug i linked to [19:52] <@mirek2> It showed more useful info than the new one [19:52] * spaetz prefers blue links to buttons for the three links in the new about dialog [19:53] *me-tooing_spaetz* [19:53] Gnome and xfce about dialogs have plain blue links too [19:53] <@mirek2> I bet everyone who installs LibreOffice knows that it's a productivity suite [19:53] mirek2: Me too and WAY faster... [19:53] it doesnt hurt having a short product desription there i think [19:53] * willubuntu is mockuping :D [19:53] mirek2: well, but that's the point of an "About" dialog :-). I don't thnk it's a bad or too long description [19:54] btw ... its apparently pizazz... one z only... [19:54] 1) button -> plain links. 2) a close button [19:54] <@mirek2> why was this never on the design or ux mailing list? [19:55] 3) remove weird bezel [19:55] <@mirek2> Firefox's about dialog: http://scripting.com/images/2011/08/18/firefoxAboutWindowV6.gif [19:55] <@mirek2> no product description, as user already knows that it's a browser [19:55] would have been a good idea of me to CC this list at some point i guess... [19:55] I actually like the copyright text _under_ the 3 links [19:56] mirek2: but Firefox is the product who wanted to remove versions numbers completely from their about dialog [19:56] <@mirek2> + useful info about the software build [19:56] so I would not take them as idol :) [19:56] <@mirek2> @spaetz: some people did [19:56] <@mirek2> but they decided against it [19:56] <@mirek2> so, yes, they're ones to follow, as they clearly pay attention to UX and make wise decisions in the end [19:56] after a community backlash, yes :) [19:56] @spaetz: but these are buttons, not links, buttons belong to the bottom (or top depending on philosophy) [19:57] astron247: but if you make them three plain links, they don't :) [19:57] see the firefox about screenshot [19:57] <@mirek2> ok, here's the Chrome about dialog: http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&safe=off&client=ubuntu&hs=f5Y&sa=X&channel=fs&biw=1280&bih=690&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=vwzTPnMbtfar3M:&imgrefurl=http://support.agilebits.com/discussions/1password-38-for-mac-from-agilebits-website/5583-chrome-issues&docid=WRMCTN0zviE5TM&imgurl=http://cdn.agilebits.com/kyle/ChromeAboutDialog.png&w=500&h=323&ei=61PKT9WTJYiF4gTS06TrDw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=196&vpy=347&dur=402&hovh=180&hovw=279&tx=11 [19:57] it has 3 links above the gray trademark blurb [19:57] <@mirek2> http://cdn.agilebits.com/kyle/ChromeAboutDialog.png, rather [19:57] which is just a single line [19:58] ours is three lines long [19:59] <@mirek2> would it be possible to redesign the About screen yet again? [19:59] <@mirek2> I feel like our current one is better, in many ways, than the new one... [20:00] astron247: right, the 3 lines is a bit excessive, but it's a really minor point [20:00] there is bigger fish to fry. [20:00]https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/index.php?title=Design/Meetings/2012-06-02&action=edit == spaetz [~spaetz@2001:4b00:180:801:211:32ff:fe0d:ee0c] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] [20:01] @mirek: surely, it would be, but youd have to find a dev to do that. [20:01] the next month they will all be fixing bugs left and right, so... [20:01] will is kind of a hope here :) [20:02] <@mirek2> what about simply taking the old one and replacing the text [20:02] astron247: It's exacly what I would like to do. [20:03] @mirek: i think its not an option to try to go back. you will seem like a blocker [20:03] Concerning the disposition more like the Firefox dialog [20:03] == spaetz [b02ee28d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.176.46.226.141] has joined #libreoffice-design [20:03] sorry, got disconnected [20:03] we saw... [20:04] with regard to 3 lines of copyright blurb. astron247: right, the 3 lines is a bit excessive, but it's a                 really minor point, there is bigger fish to fry. (I'd ditch the first line anyway) [20:04] <@mirek2> @astron: but it's not about what I seem like, it's about what has better quality [20:05] sure, but some people were really happy about how water-proof it is (there was an april 1 joke here) .. look it up on the dev-list [20:06] <@mirek2> @spaetz: you can see the stuff you missed on https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings/2012-06-02, if you'd like [20:07] live meeting notes... nice. [20:08] <@mirek2> @willubuntu: so you'd like to base your code on the old About dialog, not the new one? [20:08] mirek2 Yes on the old. But the final look will be exactly what Firefox provide [20:08] <@mirek2> everyone: could I start a whiteboard on the About dialog? [20:08] *+s [20:09] <@mirek2> @willubuntu: great [20:09] <@mirek2> you might want to take a look at http://elementaryos.org/journal/typography-gtk3 [20:09] <@mirek2> at the about dialog [20:10] not that it matters, but it would be politically better to base the code on the current code and evolve from there. [20:10] <alexander_> Yeah, elementary's about dialog is very nice [20:10] just a minor observation [20:10] <@mirek2> @spaetz: is the new code better somehow? [20:10] <@mirek2> politically, it's better to do the thing that's right for our users [20:11] Yes,it has been accepted by a contributor and discarding contributions is always worse then "evolving" based on them [20:11] <@mirek2> if a piece of new code is bad, we should scrap it, not keep it around because it's new [20:11] the piece of code is not bad, the looks are. [20:11] <@mirek2> but it seems as it's a lot more complicated than the old one [20:11] @ spaetz: yes, that's the point i am trying to make. [20:11] simplify it :) [20:11] <@mirek2> but we already have a simple version -- the old code [20:12] evolve, don't discard. [20:12] yes, it is... apparently it resizes based on your screen size etc. [20:12] <@mirek2> @spaetz: I disagree [20:12] @mirek we need the core devs in our boat [20:12] we agree to disagree then. I am simply speaking from a contributor community point of view. [20:12] otherwise theyll just disregard what we have to say. [20:13] <@mirek2> but we're making software for the user [20:13] <alexander_> mutations with a negative effect on an individuum tend to kill it in the end... [20:13] not directly, though [20:13] <@mirek2> the redesign of the About dialog should happen openly, not behind closed doors [20:13] <alexander_> as a metaphor :) [20:13] social darwinisim ... no, software darwinsim? [20:13] <alexander_> I guess [20:14] <alexander_> I think there have been studies on this regarding the debian repos [20:14] <@mirek2> and the developer implementing it should opt to base it on whatever code he deems most fit for the purpose [20:14] <alexander_> But thats quite off-topic [20:14] <@mirek2> he can even borrow code from other projects with a good license [20:14] <@mirek2> he certainly doesn't have to modify the newest version if it's not fit for the redesign [20:14] @alex: saw that on heise too [20:15] mirek2: it doesn't matter what he "should". This is about feelings of contributions being discarded/rejected/reverted. This is psychology, not technology. But I digress and will shut up [20:15] It was just an observation [20:15] <@mirek2> alright [20:15] <@mirek2> Is it ok if I put up a whiteboard for the about dialog? [20:16] +1 [20:16] yes, i think so. [20:16] sorry that i did not push this to design/ux-advise... [20:16] <@mirek2> willubuntu, would you be willing to code something decided on collaboratively? [20:16] <@mirek2> @astron: that's ok [20:17] mirek2: yes for sure [20:17] <@mirek2> alright, great [20:18] <@mirek2> about the splash screen, then [20:19] <@mirek2> are there certain constraints for the design? [20:19] mostly: [20:19] <@mirek2> should it be the same size as it is now? [20:19] <@mirek2> no transparency, I guess [20:19] probably, and probably [20:19] astron247: Yes LibO code can't reder PNG [20:19] @it does render PNG today [20:20] <@mirek2> ok, and the color of the progress indicator is tweakable [20:20] <@mirek2> (in case the green is hard to see on the proposed versions) [20:20] mirek2: Hey I won't code the update manager for June 10 [20:20] right ... id love to have some cool progress indicator as underline effect... [20:20] @will: thats cool [20:21] it'd be too much of a new feature this late in 3.6 anyway [20:21] <@mirek2> @willubuntu: would you be willing to code a restructured About dialog for 3.6, though? [20:21] astron247: Yes. Keep in mind. My contribution is just to avoid this ugly About dialog appearing in 3.6. [20:22] mirek2: Not for 3.6 It's quite too late today [20:22] <@mirek2> ok [20:22] I'm still under exam until June 22. [20:22] But for the release after the holiday I think it will be ready [20:22] anyway... musts for the new splash: motif, same logo (basic/modern) in both about and splash [20:23] <@mirek2> Is the motif really a must? [20:23] <@mirek2> I'd like to keep creativity to the maximum [20:23] <@mirek2> some minimalistic designs might not want to use the motif [20:24] <@mirek2> (btw, I plan to post this as a Playground page, so there will be no deadline, as this is one of the things that can be improved continually) [20:24] creativity thrives when there are restrictions ;) [20:26] <@mirek2> frankly, I also believe that the About dialog would do better without the motif [20:27] <@mirek2> Could it at least be a recommendation rather than a restriction? [20:27] okay [20:28] <@mirek2> :) great [20:28] <@mirek2> move onto another topic? [20:29] okay. [20:29] <@mirek2> I'd like to talk about our design ethos [20:29] <@mirek2> http://bokardo.com/principles-of-user-interface-design/ [20:30] <@mirek2> I'd personally love for these design principles to become our design principles [20:30] <@mirek2> I believe we need some basic principles to guide our designs [20:30] hm... wouldnt it be better to define the product vision as björn proposed? [20:30] (first) [20:31] <alexander_> what would be the difference? [20:31] <@mirek2> there are several differences [20:31] <@mirek2> design principles concern all design [20:32] <@mirek2> the product vision concerns each individual piece of software separately [20:32] well the product vision defines what our product should become, while design principles guide our designs [20:32] the thing is though, that design principles can be contradictory and we will need to decide with which one to go [20:33] <@mirek2> i.e. "Impress remote control" is a product different from "LibreOffice", or at least that's how I understand it [20:33] and one way to do that is the product vision [20:33] @mirek: hm, maybe its a sub-product [20:33] with a slightly different target audience [20:33] <@mirek2> I feel like the product vision can be just too generic and dangerously misleading because of that [20:34] <@mirek2> I meant vague rather than generic [20:34] yes, product are always vague, but some more than others [20:34] +visions [20:34] <@mirek2> I also feel like certain parts of LibreOffice have completely different userbases [20:35] <@mirek2> compare "Draw" and "Math" and "Base" [20:35] <alexander_> Who uses math as a stand-alone app? [20:35] <@mirek2> yeah, exactly [20:35] i see that this is a problem, but ... still there should be an all-encompassing vision here [20:35] <@mirek2> such as? [20:36] oh... [20:36] * libreoffice is with you (starts up quickly, on all your devices) [20:36] * libreoffice is powerful without being overpowering [20:36] .... [20:37] would be the first two things that would come to midn [20:37] but really, we should discuss this at more length [20:37] <@mirek2> it would also be a lot more problematic trying to come up with a vision, as a vision concerns the whole of LibreOffice rather than just the design team [20:37] <@mirek2> the design principles apply to the design team only [20:38] yes. getting developers to do that is a bit of a problem [20:38] @mirek: no, they dont [20:38] developers will design all the time [20:38] (actually they do) [20:38] <@mirek2> yes, but, in that case, they're also designers [20:38] youd hope :) [20:39] anyway, it will be hard to get them to stick to our rules... [20:40] so these rules have to prove themselves first [20:40] <@mirek2> if a developer doesn't bother to design along with the design team, he probably won't bother to design according to set design rules [20:40] <@mirek2> the least a developer could do is check with the design team if his idea is good [20:40] <alexander_> so we should try to have very simple and few design rules? [20:41] probably. [20:41] <@mirek2> no, on the contrary [20:41] <@mirek2> well, not exactly the contrary [20:41] have you watched the video about firefox design i linked to on the list btw? [20:41] <@mirek2> we should have exactly enough design rules as to end up with the best possible design [20:41] <@mirek2> @astron: when did you link it? [20:42] <@mirek2> if it was recently, then I must have missed it [20:42] <@mirek2> could you post the link here? [20:42] http://blog.mozilla.org/faaborg/2011/11/01/talk-at-parc-designing-firefox/ [20:43] if you have an hour to spare, well worth watching [20:43] <@mirek2> will do [20:43] <@mirek2> anyway, what do you all think about http://bokardo.com/principles-of-user-interface-design/ ? [20:44] <alexander_> I've skipped over it and it all sounds pretty good [20:44] havent read all of it, but yes, sounds like it goes through many of the points that nielsen goes through too [20:46] <@mirek2> would you object to it formin the basis of our design guidelines? [20:47] i wouldnt want to say anything on that right now. please let me read it first. ill answer tomorrow or so. [20:47] <@mirek2> alright [20:47] <@mirek2> how would you propose we shape our guidelines? [20:47] <@mirek2> a whiteboard? [20:48] okay [20:48] <@mirek2> starting today? [20:49] <@mirek2> i.e. call for proposals ending next IRC chat? [20:49] <alexander_> ok+ [20:49] <alexander_> I think we can work on it corrabolatively [20:49] <@mirek2> yes [20:50] <@mirek2> alright -- next order of business [20:50] <@mirek2> GSoC? [20:50] <alexander_> Any progress on the file viewer? [20:51] <@mirek2> some [20:51] <@mirek2> I'm playing with designs [20:51] <@mirek2> for example, I want the background to be black [20:51] <@mirek2> rather than gray, so the user can focus on the content [20:52] uhm, sorry people, i will go offline now. [20:52] hope that's okay. [20:52] <@mirek2> alright, good night [20:52] <alexander_> ok, bye [20:53] night astron [20:53] thanks! [20:53] == astron247 [~frootzowr@dslb-088-072-060-098.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #libreoffice-design [] [20:54] <@mirek2> anyway, about the file viewer, I'll work on it some more [20:54] <@mirek2> but I'd prefer it to be democratic [20:54] <@mirek2> in other words, anyone can still submit designs, especially for the open problems on the wiki [20:55] <alexander_> ok [20:55] <@mirek2> has any developer spoken up on the dev list? [20:56] <@mirek2> I mean any GSoC student/mentor... [20:56] <alexander_> I don't think so [20:56] <@mirek2> what about the ESC call? [20:56] <@mirek2> did Tor happen to mention it? [20:56] <alexander_> ah, wait [20:57] <alexander_> Well, iain and marco cechetti post quite often [20:58] <alexander_> and astron mentioned that we'd like to get in contact with the sudents [20:58] <@mirek2> alright [20:59] <@mirek2> I still have to contact the template dialog people [20:59] <alexander_> * GSOC update (Cedric) [20:59] <alexander_>        + progressing nicely, check students are working, [20:59] <alexander_>          ping quiet ones [20:59] <alexander_> Cedric & Rafael [20:59] <@mirek2> that was on the ESC program [20:59] <@mirek2> but did it happen? [20:59] <alexander_> yes [21:00] <@mirek2> and? any word on the projects we've designed for? [21:00] <alexander_> you mean whether it was mentioned during the call? [21:00] <@mirek2> yes [21:01] <alexander_> yes [21:01] <@mirek2> and? [21:01] <alexander_> oh [21:02] <alexander_> Well, I guess Cedric and Tor will encourage his student to talk to us [21:02] <alexander_> *their *s [21:03] <alexander_> That would be the android port and the template picker. Did iain answer your mail? [21:04] <@mirek2> which one? [21:05] <@mirek2> I've only sent one, on the first of may, which he answered [21:05] <@mirek2> "I'd be happy to work with you and the design team." [21:05] == spaetz [b02ee28d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.176.46.226.141] has quit [Quit: Page closed] [21:06] <alexander_> wait a sec [21:06] <@mirek2> yes? [21:07] A mockup http://libreoffice.gathoye.be/LibO_2012-06-02_about_0001.png [21:07] I will add some text later [21:07] Inkscape is annoying me : I can't define underlined text [21:08] <alexander_> hm, I can't find it [21:08] <@mirek2> yeah, that annoyed me as well [21:08] <@mirek2> @willubuntu: could upload your mockup to the whiteboard, once I create it? [21:08] <@mirek2> you are on the design team mailing list, right? [21:09] <alexander_> Looks nice, I'd remove those shadows, though [21:09] <@mirek2> exactly what I was going to say [21:09] mirek2: I'm on nabble yes, but I don't receive the all design team mail [21:09] only when people answer me on threads I participated in [21:09] <@mirek2> alright -- I'll send an e-mail announcing the whiteboard [21:11] <@mirek2> @alex: what were you trying to find? [21:13] please refresh I uploaded it as real size [21:13] <alexander_> oh, i think I mixed that up with a mail to andrzej [21:13] <alexander_> and muthu [21:14] <@mirek2> @will: I'd still prefer it without the added shadows [21:15] <@mirek2> there should also be at least a license link [21:15] mirek2: I added some shadows on the LibreOffice logo [21:15] <@mirek2> yeah, that's the one I mean [21:15] <@mirek2> on both the logo and the logo type [21:17] <@mirek2> @alex: yes, it's on the team list titled "Impress remote: Tentative design" [21:17] mirek2: How do you remove this :D [21:18] <alexander_> I see, I thought i was about the android port of LibO [21:18] <@mirek2> @will: the official SVG shouldn't contain shadows: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Gallery_Logos [21:19] <@mirek2> I just remember one more thing I'd like to discuss [21:20] <alexander_> yes? [21:20] <@mirek2> I was thinking of making separate pages for contests, whiteboards, and playgrounds [21:20] <@mirek2> as the design homepage is growing, and it's not very novice-friendly anymore [21:20] <@mirek2> I'd also like to make the design homepage as novice-friendly as possible, more than it is now [21:21] <@mirek2> so that nobody feels like we need a section like https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Call_for_Templates#Help [21:22] <@mirek2> what do you think? [21:22] <alexander_> Maybe have a single page containing such advice [21:22] <alexander_> ? [21:22] <@mirek2> I was thinking of the homepage guiding novices through the process [21:22] <alexander_> ah [21:23] <@mirek2> then having separate contests, whiteboards, and playgrounds pages, listing current endeavors as well as explaining their respective workflows [21:23] <alexander_> sounds good [21:23] <@mirek2> basically, the homepage would be a nexus sending people to various sections of the design part of the wiki [21:24] <@mirek2> is it ok if I implement it, then? [21:24] <alexander_> Yes, go ahead [21:24] <@mirek2> great [21:24] <@mirek2> anything else we should discuss? [21:25] <alexander_> I think we're done [21:26] <alexander_> Do you need the svg of that folder? [21:26] <@mirek2> oh, about that folder [21:26] <@mirek2> I assume the four blank spaces are meant for template thumbnails [21:27] <@mirek2> or are those just symbolism for templates? [21:27] <@mirek2> in any case, yes, I'd like the SVG :) [21:27] <alexander_> thumbnails [21:27] <@mirek2> great, that' s what I thought [21:27] <@mirek2> will, anything you'd like to say before we end the chat? [21:28] <@mirek2> I assume that you're afk, then... :) [21:29] <@mirek2> alright, good night [21:29] <alexander_> no [21:29] <@mirek2> no? [21:29] <alexander_> Have a nice evening [21:29] <@mirek2> you too [21:29] <@mirek2> I'll put the log up