Design/Meetings/2013-06-09

Cast (in order of appearance)

 * issa
 * astron
 * ahmd
 * mirek2
 * mahfiaz

Topics

 * Writer default template
 * Flat Icons

Log
[16:08] hello astron [16:10]  hello [16:10] hello ahmd [16:12] hi [16:13]  astron247: I was discussing with issa the default theme of Writer [16:13] oh ok [16:14]  I've noticed many wrong things in the paragraph spacing, default fonts, headings sizes [16:15]  it doesn't look professional [16:16]  and I believe this is an easy win for Writer if we got it right [16:16] ah ... we had this topic before. [16:17] so, for the default fonts, we can only do so much – it is supposed to always look right, and to this day i believe the only fonts that are always installed with libo are the liberation fonts [16:18]  yes, i agree with you [16:18] (because linux vendors like to package everything separately and tend to not ship the newer fonts weve added to libo) [16:18]  but what should be the default, sans-serif or serif? [16:19] that said, i think some things used to be hard-coded somewhere [16:19] ahmd_: well, i cant really say. its up to whoever does the default template [16:20] but the way it is, and the way many people still do it: you pick a sans for the headlines and a serif for the text [16:20] but theres not really a way to get it right in all circumstances [16:21] (ie screen text is often quite the opposite – because of the low resolution of most screens) [16:21]  i think sans is better to be the default [16:22]  because it works on the screen and on the paper [16:22]  not like sans-serif which look a bit noisy on screen [16:23]  sorry serif [16:23]  i can see most word processors now are using sans as default font [16:24] at the same time, it might only be two to three years until high resolution displays (think, retina macbooks, tablets) are widespread (at least in the western world) [16:27] so ... i dont really know [16:29]  what do you think, should we proceed and have sans as the default font for paragraphs? [16:30] ahmd_: i cant really tell you. although i believe liberation serif is quite robust in screen settings [16:31] and i can tell you that i like liberation sans even less than arial (which it is supposed to copy). [16:31]  issa? [16:31] issa: oh good [16:32] I prefer a serif font because it looks more elegant in both print and pdf documents [16:33] (and I'd say that's where you would encounter most documents produced by writer) [16:35] issa: liberation serif isnt really elegant, its more of a workhorse serif if you will... [16:36] well compared to liberation sans anyway [16:36] right [16:36] (I've never used them much tbh) [16:39] right. after all, they are replacement fonts for arial and times new roman, first and foremost [16:40]  ok, so do we leave the default paragraph font as serif? [16:41] i dont know. you may want to try both and put it on the list..? [16:42] btw: ahmd__, are you one of the kacst people? [16:43]  yes :) [16:43] ok. [16:45] is there actually any sort of sans/serif distinction in arabic? or anything that replaces it? [16:45] no proper distinction [16:45] ok [16:50] anyway, alexander wilms had started on a new default writer template before. [16:50] not sure if you already knew this [16:51] <ahmd__> did he finish it? [16:51] not really. [16:53] <ahmd__> regardless default font, there are other important issues [16:55] <ahmd__> paragraphs are not separated by default, headings,... [16:55] yes. [16:55] sorry. i tried to find alex's efforts, but wasnt lucky so far [16:55] <ahmd__> try heading2 and 3 [16:56] sorry for being so, so late [16:56] <ahmd__> hi mirek2 [16:56] given how many of you are here, I assume you've started? [16:56] hi everyone [16:57] <ahmd__> we are discussing the default Writer template [16:57] ok, cool [17:00] <ahmd__> do you know where can i find code for default template? [17:00] i think you could ask cedric... [17:01] but i think there was a way to just use a normal template instead of the hardcoded values [17:03] alex's efforts: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Are-you-okay-with-those-new-default-styles-td3989652.html [17:03] ah, thanks! [17:04] :) you're welcome [17:05] mind you, there were a few things, most people didn't like about it: [17:06] ahmd__: you're clearly motivated to make a new default template, so how about you send a proposal to the list and we'll judge it then? [17:06] a couple of rules, though: [17:06] * must be black-and-white, for printing purposes [17:07] * must use the Liberation fonts, for compatibility purposes [17:07] (the fonts have the same metrics as Arial, Times New Roman, and Courier so that the document layout is the same on every machine) [17:08] * in general, it must be print-friendly (e.g. no flashing text :) ) [17:09] <ahmd__> ok, i'll make two templates and send it to the design list [17:10] sounds good :) [17:10] btw, ahmd__: what do you think is so wrong about the current h2 and h3? (not that i love them, but what sticks out to you?) [17:11] <ahmd__> astron247: you can't decide priority between them (which one is higher) [17:12] <ahmd__> actually h3 feels h2 and vice versa [17:12] ok. right [17:13] if one of them weren't bold, it would indeed help [17:13] especially because bold italics are a bit nasty anyway [17:14] <ahmd__> try to make h1: 24px bold, h2: 19px bold, h3: 16px bold, h4: 13px bold [17:14] <ahmd__> this is what i think about for headings [17:15] <ahmd__> and what about having 11 heading levels? there is nothing on Earth that uses 11 heading levels [17:18] I agree [17:19] <ahmd_> agree on? [17:19] if you look at the current state, though, the last few levels aren't differentiated in any way [17:19] agree that 11 may be a bit too many [17:20] on the other hand, though, you never know... [17:21] anyway, perhaps we should move to a different topic? [17:22] <ahmd_> ok [17:22] astron247: have you been attending ESC calls? [17:23] no [17:23] alright [17:23] but i should be next week [17:23] ok, sounds good [17:23] issa, how is the icon pack going? [17:24] have you asked about packaging it in unstable builds? [17:24] not yet [17:25] ok [17:25] I don't think anyone would refuse it tbh, but I'm just waiting for a more polished state [17:25] at least for the shapes [17:25] how are the shapes doing? [17:26] have they been updated from what I saw last? [17:26] no [17:26] ok [17:26] Norah needs more specific comments about each of them [17:26] I will need to go through them one by one soon [17:27] honestly, I might prefer to just tweak them myself [17:27] when/if I have time [17:28] (trying to explain exactly what my issues are with a certain icon often feels harder to me) [17:28] if you have time within the next two weeks or so that would be great [17:28] on the topic of icons, I don't suppose there's anyone who would like to pick up on the orphaned Tango testing icons [17:29] or at least encourage others to do so [17:29] the pack could be pushed in portion by portion [17:30] I was thinking we could get the shapes done first [17:30] as those should be the simplest in this case [17:31] I'm pretty full at the moment, and I'm not really fond of them [17:31] of the Tango testing icons in general, or just the shape icons? [17:31] the shape icons in particular are, imho, much better than the current set [17:32] the Tango testing icons [17:33] ok [17:33] I'm not fond of some of them either [17:34] but, then again, I'm not that fond of the current set [17:36] so, no takers for the task, I guess... [17:36] the shading on the icons containing letters in particular is bad [17:36] any other topics to cover? [17:36] while we are on icons.. [17:36] I did label the latest batch of icons I made for impress http://i.imgur.com/NbA8A35.png [17:37] the sizing seems a bit inconsistent [17:38] for example, compare undo/redo with some of the icons on the left [17:39] maybe that's just me, though... [17:39] other than that, they seem quite good :) [17:40] I don't like the line icon but didn't what else to use (far left) [17:41] yeah, you're right, that should be different [17:41] any suggestions? [17:41] (the icon looks good, but it should represent the pen tool, not the stroke) [17:42] (the icon looks good because it's straight from Inkscape :p) [17:42] :) [17:43] perhaps just a line? [17:43] with a wrench next to it? [17:44] (the wrench represents "options" in the Gnome icon set) [17:45] (for example, in the new Gnome PDF viewer, the Document options menu is represented by a document page and a wrench to the right of it) [17:45] I doubt it would look good, but I'll try [17:46] rather than next to it, perhaps I should have said overlaying it [17:46] take a look at the Document Options icon before doing the line icon [17:47] I did use these for the character and paragraph icons respectively http://i.imm.io/18MtG.png [17:48] the wrench you're using doesn't seem like gnome's [17:49] could you replace it for Gnome's? [17:49] also, perhaps the wrench could overlay the symbols? [17:50] mirek2: it already slightly overlays the "a" in the first version [17:50] i wouldnt overdo it so much that you cant recognise the a anymore [17:50] astron247: exactly [17:51] touché, though I would still say that it could be a bit higher [17:51] I actually wanted to add it to the line and area icons but they weren't recognizable anymore [17:51] the wrench is from gnome but it was part of another icon, didn't know about the one you are talking about [17:52] if you have the gnome-stencils.svg file from the gnome-icon-theme-symbolic github repo, the icon I'm talking about is at the end of the second row [17:54] I don't have it now but I'll check it later [17:54] btw, here's how Expression Design portrays fill/outline: http://www.grafika.cz/old-idif/grafika/images6/expression_web3_04.png [17:55] fill is a large filled rectangle while outline is an empty rectangle with a very thick stroke [17:57] but it's called "area" [17:57] isn't it the same thing, though? [17:57] just noticed Inkscape has icons for outline and fill as well [17:58] on its tabs [17:58] rectangles as well [17:59] I suppose, but I mean it's both fill and outline [18:00] "area" seems to only concern the fill [18:01] "line" seems to only concern the outline [18:01] they're just different names [18:01] or am I missing something? [18:03] right [18:04] ok makes sense [18:06] any comments about the icons from anyone else? [18:07] hm, the raster icon is weird, i think [18:07] (display gird) [18:08] it looks fuzzy and different from the others [18:10] I don't see it [18:10] it's different because it's the only one with single pixels [18:10] right [18:11] I like it [18:11] if you have a different vision for it, though, perhaps you could propose a different one? [18:12] how about using the lighter grey colour for the lines and the darker for the edges? [18:14] sure, will try that [18:14] just an idea [18:14] thanks [18:14] sounds good [18:15] anything else with the icons? [18:15] hm, i guess there is the issue with the zoom and search icon being the same..? [18:16] like this http://i.imm.io/18MFt.png [18:16] (I missed one pixel!) [18:17] hm, can you do solid instead of dashed lines? [18:18] (i mean for the lighter lines) [18:18] but the grid is actually dotted [18:18] ok. right. [18:19] still can you try? [18:23] (just tried it, though very inexactly, and it looks okayisher to me) [18:24] http://i.imm.io/18MIx.png [18:24] I don't like it [18:25] I prefer the previous one as well [18:26] ok. then im alone in this, i guess. [18:27] also, the inside (the compass needle) of the navigator icon looks too little like a triangle to me somehow [18:33] what do you propose? [18:34] not really sure here [18:34] just pointing out theres a legibility problem [18:35] an eyeglass with a + or a -? [18:35] a + seems to be most common: http://thenounproject.com/noun/zoom/#icon-No1669 [18:36] mirek2: we're talking about the navigator (the one left of zoom) [18:36] oh, sorry [18:36] seems like we skipped over the zoom icon, though [18:36] (but the zoom icon is another issue) [18:37] yes ... [18:37] I find the Navigator icon acceptable, but I agree it could use improvements [18:37] I'd leave it as is for now, though [18:37] and focus on the other icons [18:37] perhaps, in time, someone will come along and make it better [18:39] as for zoom metaphors, in sliders, Apple employs a small shape on one end and then a visibly larger one on the other [18:39] don't see a practical way of utilizing that metaphor in a square icon, though [18:40] hm, no. me neither [18:40] but the in the icon are actually a good idea [18:41] ok [18:41] issa: does that sound doable? [18:41] I didn't quite get it [18:41] (its from the the noun project page mirek linked to) [18:41] not my idea [18:43] you're saying this for the page width icon? [18:43] for the zoom icon [18:43] oh [18:44] I don't quite get it but it should be doable [18:44] well, the issue is, that the zoom and search icon would look the same otherwise [18:44] true [18:45] sorry all but I have to leave now [18:45] ok. [18:45] we should finish anyway, i think [18:45] you should possibly discuss the latest color picker [18:46] bye [18:46] hi mahfiaz [18:47] hi mirek2 [18:47] any topic that you'd like to discuss? [18:48] nope, I just came to see if you have already done for today [18:48] astron247: would you like to discuss the color picker? [18:48] personally, I'd like to put it off until issa is here [18:48] as he designed the latest tentative design [18:49] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Color_Picker [18:49] i havent really looked at it, so... [18:49] next week, then? [18:50] i suppose [18:50] ok [18:50] is Sunday good for you next week? [18:50] probably not. [18:50] and Saturday? [18:51] maybe [18:51] the thing is, I won't be able to attend Saturday... [18:51] ... but I don't like the chat being moved because of me [18:53] so if you're able to attend on Saturday, perhaps you could lead the chat next week? [18:53] ok. lets see [18:54] i can try to. [18:54] alright [18:55] could you announce on the list that the next chat will be on Saturday again? :) [18:55] lets tentatively do it saturday, if no one shows up, well do it sunday [18:55] alright [18:55] mirek2: ok [18:56] it seems like we're done for today [18:56] astron247: given that you've been here longest today, could you put up the log? [18:56] shall i put up the log? [18:56] ok... then [18:56] :) thanks [18:56] bye
 * colour – thats a bit expressive for the default template
 * too different headline sizes
 * etc.