Design/Meetings/2012-10-20

Attendees

 * Astron
 * Mirek2
 * usr_share

Topics

 * IRC chat process
 * Design wiki
 * Generic option analysis

Tasks

 * Ask developers about use-cases for some options.
 * Mirek2: Create Design wiki whiteboard

Log
[16:09] hi there [16:10] <@mirek2> hello [16:10] <@mirek2> I was afraid no one was going to show up [16:10] sorry. [16:10] <@mirek2> that's ok -- I'm glad someone did :) [16:11] since its just the two of us, i guess we can skip the esc topic..? [16:11] <@mirek2> yeah [16:11] okay. [16:11] <@mirek2> how about finishing up options analysis? [16:12] right. id like to get one simple idea out before we continue. [16:12] <@mirek2> sure, go ahead [16:14] i would like to make it a rule that our irc chats always have a length of 2 hrs maximum. the second thing is, i guess we should mandate that the person that was at the esc (ie usually me) have written up their notes already so we just need to copy them..? [16:14] <@mirek2> yeah, ok [16:15] also, maybe we should see that we get status updates from everyone and finish that in the first 15–30 mins [16:15] <@mirek2> or the person could just publish the design-relevant esc minutes on the design list [16:15] <@mirek2> astron247: agree with everything [16:15] <@mirek2> I was thinking we could have tasks written up in advance [16:15] okay, probably better for visibility of the notes, youre right [16:16] <@mirek2> see how we have tasks in the chat logs -- those could be written during the week [16:17] <@mirek2> also, I was thinking about streamlining the design page [16:17] okay, so the schedule would be: [16:17] * statuses (max 20 mins) [16:17] * esc discussion (ie questions to what is already on the list) [16:18] * discussion of tasks (max. 90mins) [16:18] <@mirek2> then listed topics + new topics from people who come [16:18] <@mirek2> ok [16:19] oh, and do we want one note taker? [16:19] <@mirek2> for what? [16:19] <@mirek2> you mean, for publishing the log and associated items? [16:19] for writing up tasks etc during the chat, so that we can present them at the top as you occassionally did [16:20] yes [16:20] but mainly for what i said. [16:20] <@mirek2> sure [16:20] <@mirek2> do you want to be one this week or should I? [16:20] i e make sure that whenever we reach consensus its written up in condensed form within seconds [16:21] <@mirek2> right [16:21] so, here we go and i will have to break one rule already: i will only be there until 1900 [16:21] <@mirek2> ok [16:21] <@mirek2> I'll post the log then [16:21] so, maybe you this time. [16:21] thanks! [16:22] okay. you speaking about streamlining the design page..? [16:22] <@mirek2> yeah, I think the list of tasks is a bit too daunting for a newbie [16:23] <@mirek2> maybe just have "contact the mailing list or show up at an irc meeting" for starters [16:23] do you mean the wiki page or the homepage? [16:23] <@mirek2> and maybe have what we're working on right on the front page [16:23] <@mirek2> the homepage [16:23] <@mirek2> of the Design wiki [16:24] oh. [16:24] <@mirek2> additionally, I don't think Playgrounds are working [16:25] <@mirek2> the only active playground is the template one, I guess, and we don't really have much use for it [16:25] <@mirek2> or for any of them, for that matter [16:26] hm, i dont find them so bad. and we could call them galleries or so but that would take the playfulness out of it [16:26] <@mirek2> I just think the wiki, as it is now, is bit of an overkill [16:26] what is true though is that we have too few graphical designers who want to be core [16:26] <@mirek2> and might be one of the reasons why people aren't joining [16:26] <@mirek2> it just doesn't look simple [16:27] i agree mostly. mailing lists are another thing that can seem daunting [16:27] <@mirek2> we could have a whiteboard for redesigning the design wiki [16:27] <@mirek2> what do you say? [16:27] <@mirek2> astron247: I agree, but I don't know of a good alternative [16:28] but i am not sure how you would make the wiki itself easier to use. [16:28] <@mirek2> I meant the content of the wiki, not the wiki itself [16:28] <@mirek2> sorry for being unclear [16:29] <@mirek2> anyway, I think it'd be good to get more people on the team [16:30] what more would you propose except slashing playgrounds? [16:30] <@mirek2> decreasing the amount of text on https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design [16:30] <@mirek2> the subscribe section is a bit too lengthy [16:31] <@mirek2> all that's needed is to tell the person to send a message to the mailing list [16:31] <@mirek2> or to at least subscribe and see how it works [16:31] <@mirek2> the "Find a project" category is a bit misleading, as we're only working on a select few projects [16:32] <@mirek2> we should tell the user which ones [16:33] okay. i agree. maybe we could add a link somwehere to a page dedicated to explaining how we work [16:33] (and remove this content from the design page itself [16:34] <@mirek2> there's not that much about how we work [16:34] <@mirek2> anyway, since your time is limited, it's probably better to create a whiteboard for this? [16:35] <@mirek2> is it ok if I make one? [16:37] okay. [16:38] meanwhile, ive edited the subscribe section a little [16:38] <@mirek2> alright, I'll get to that after the meeting [16:38] <@mirek2> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Analyses/Global_Options ? [16:39] yes [16:39] are we at email client? [16:39] <@mirek2> I suppose [16:40] <@mirek2> I would say either advanced or unnecessary, should use the system default [16:40] right. it should only be shown if the user doesnt use a desktop as such. windows/gnome provide this, i imagine kde and mac do this also [16:41] so maybe if an option cant be found in the system → provide this. otherwise AOP [16:43] <@mirek2> wait -- if it's not in your DE, what does LibreOffice use for opening e--mails? [16:43] for opening email? [16:44] <@mirek2> I mean, for sending documents as e-mails [16:45] not sure. i think a script called sensible-oomua is called by default and that might occasionally fail..? [16:46] <@mirek2> should I write down "ask a dev about use-case"? [16:48] <@mirek2> or just mark it as Advanced, just given the fact that a user without a desktop that knows that he has to set the e-mail manager by hand in the Options dialog is an advanced user? [16:49] maybe. but you should be very precise about us wanting to exclude the tinkerer use case and only including cases where this really _has_ to be set. [16:49] (that was re: your email idea) [16:50] <@mirek2> I'll write down "ask for use-cases" for now [16:50] oka [16:50] <@mirek2> Connections [16:50] y [16:51] i never use base [16:51] <@mirek2> hm, never used it, don't know how important it is [16:51] <@mirek2> your call [16:51] <@mirek2> ok, so "ask for use cases" as well, huh? [16:51] <@mirek2> for all the database stuff [16:51] but at least base doesnt have too many options ... id tend to keep whats there, i guess. i really have no idea [16:52] <@mirek2> yeah, I meant that's my knee-jerk reaction as well -- if I don't know what it's for, then just keep it [16:53] <@mirek2> Language: Languages [16:53] → advanced [16:54] <@mirek2> ok [16:54] <@mirek2> wait, no [16:54] <@mirek2> it should appear only when an additional lang pack or a multilang version is installed [16:54] <@mirek2> but it should be generic [16:55] whyß [16:55] ? [16:55] <@mirek2> possible use case: several people use a non-Ultimate version Windows, but still want to switch languages in as much of their software as possible [16:55] <@mirek2> nevermind the use-case, though [16:56] what does this have to do with nonultimate windows versions? [16:56] <@mirek2> the mere existence of additional lang packs and of a multilanguage version should tell us that this feature should appear when the user's using them [16:56] or was that about somethign else0 [16:56] <@mirek2> afaik, windows allows you to switch languages only in the Ultimate version [16:57] mirek2: i tend to disagree. some linux distros tend to add lots of language packs to your system [16:58] just because theyre there does not mean you need them [16:58] <@mirek2> I'm talking about Windows, since there's no easy way to switch languages in it, I believe [16:58] <@mirek2> unless you use the Ultimate version [16:58] <@mirek2> really? Linux distros install additional languages? [16:59] well, check if you have something like "en-ZA"/"en-CA" installed... [16:59] afaik in suse its worse, since they package all non-english lang packs together in one package [17:00] <@mirek2> in LibreOffice Options, I'm only shown English [17:01] <@mirek2> Locale setting gives me tons of options, on the other hand [17:01] <@mirek2> but that makes sense [17:01] okay, i retract my statement about suse from above [17:02] maybe they do that for some packages, but they dont do it for libreoffice [17:02] <@mirek2> hm... the Help text talks about a multi-language version, but I don't see it on the download page [17:03] thats only for windows [17:03] <@mirek2> where? [17:04] https://www.libreoffice.org/download/?type=win-x86&lang=cs&version=3.6.2 [17:05] note how i set czech as the language, but the installer remains the same 204 mb no matter whether you set english, czech ... [17:05] <@mirek2> yeah, but doesn't the installer only install the default language pack? [17:06] yes. it installs en-US and the system language by defualt [17:06] you can however add more languages during the installtion [17:06] <@mirek2> ok [17:07] ie. if you speak something other than english this means that you will always have two lang packs installed and the option is always shown [17:07] brilliant [17:08] <@mirek2> there it might make sense if the translation isn't complete [17:08] <@mirek2> or if it's just bad (as it sometimes can be) [17:08] <@mirek2> Czechs are pretty used to having software in English [17:09] sure, theres a couple of cases where the option makes sense, but i dont think everyone will need this option [17:09] <@mirek2> and there's a lot of cases when e.g. a question in a modal dialog is in English, but the reply buttons are in Czech [17:10] in libreoffice? [17:10] <@mirek2> so... I'd agree to remove this option as long as we also remove the additional languages part from the installation dialog [17:10] <@mirek2> astron247: there I have no idea -- I don't actually use a czech version of libreoffice [17:11] ah... just like me not using it in german and then noticing horrible translations on my parents laptop [17:11] <@mirek2> right [17:12] i would provide this option in two ways: [17:12] * advanced panel (for normal users) [17:12] * environment variable (fer developers to test) [17:13] <@mirek2> (by "remove this option", I meant "make it advanced", of course) [17:13] but i dont think it makes sense for people to download all these languages and then not being able to install them [17:14] <@mirek2> yeah, but I don't think it makes sense for them to install them and then not find them in Options [17:14] == usr_share [~usr_share@95-27-108-62.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #libreoffice-design [17:14] <@mirek2> hello [17:14]  oh, hi again :) [17:15] o hai... [17:15] <@mirek2> btw, I shared your "contextual menus" idea with Michael Meeks and he liked it [17:15]  :) [17:15] <@mirek2> it will, of course, take a while to get that rolling [17:17] go on? [17:17] <@mirek2> anyway, we were analyzing Options [17:17] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Analyses/Global_Options [17:17] <@mirek2> oh, Michael just said he liked the idea [17:18] <@mirek2> it's up to us, though, to figure out how it should be done [17:18] are you talking privately? [17:18] <@mirek2> at the conference [17:18] <@mirek2> I ran the idea by him [17:19] i men usr_share and you [17:19] +a [17:19] <@mirek2> no [17:19] ... okay then i am maybe just confuzzleed [17:20] == usr_share [~usr_share@95-27-108-62.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] [17:21] <@mirek2> where? [17:21] <@mirek2> what's confusing? [17:21] oh that youre answering questions that seemingly werent asked [17:21] whatsoever... [17:22] okay. firefox p.ex provides these options via addons ... would that be an idea? [17:22] <@mirek2> I just wanted to tell usr_share the progress on his idea + catch him up on what we were doing [17:22] i know [17:22] <@mirek2> btw, I assume that whatever you needed to do at 19:00 you don't need to anymore? [17:23] well, no, but the deadline has been postponed to ~1945 [17:23] :) [17:24] <@mirek2> ok :) [17:24] <@mirek2> astron247: yes, I think it'd be good to present lang packs as add-ons, but it would also mean offering them on the extension site [17:24] <@mirek2> so it would mean some work for the developers [17:25] okay. then maybe keep the option. [17:26] <@mirek2> alright :) [17:26] == usr_share [~usr_share@95-27-108-62.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #libreoffice-design [17:26]  oh, sorry [17:27] <@mirek2> that's ok [17:27]  was trying out elementary daily PPA [17:27] <@mirek2> :) alright [17:27] <@mirek2> we're still analyzing options [17:27] <@mirek2> we're on "Locale setting" [17:28] <@mirek2> again, I think we should ask for use cases [17:28] <@mirek2> seems like something that we should take from the system [17:28] its pretty simple: people like to use software in english but want to write with it in their native language [17:28]  what about users who use an OS in one language yet want to have documents in the other? [17:29]  yeah, like astron247 said. [17:29] (thus they need native currency symbols etc. [17:29] <@mirek2> yes, I know [17:29] <@mirek2> but, again, this is something the OS usually handles [17:29] not always in this case. [17:30] <@mirek2> ok [17:30] (i think) [17:30] <@mirek2> then generic it is [17:30] sucks [17:30] but probably the best decision [17:30] <@mirek2> I guess [17:31] okay decimal separator key -- thsi one might make sense per document, but hardly as a generic option [17:31] ^hsi^his [17:31] <@mirek2> yeah, I don't think it's generic either [17:32] <@mirek2> advanced, then [17:32] contextual? [17:32] <@mirek2> how? [17:32] <@mirek2> where would you put it? [17:33] well, i think we should have a separation of document settings and programme settings like scribus has [17:34] <@mirek2> but this setting applies strictly to the numpad [17:35] <@mirek2> not sure if it makes that much sense to save it with the document [17:35] oh. [17:35] sorry i should have read better. [17:36] that sounds pretty useless then. keep it on, kill the option [17:36]  well, I don't think a _normal_ user would have an idea of putting a different separator [17:36] <@mirek2> I think it could be quite useful for some users [17:37] <@mirek2> I would probably keep it advanced [17:37] <@mirek2> makes sense when you buy a laptop or keyboard, then move to another country [17:37]  I guess [17:38] not really, your locale should remain the same..? [17:38] <@mirek2> I'm not sure myself -- that depends on how the OS handles the numpad [17:38] <@mirek2> and how LibreOffice works [17:39] <@mirek2> I mean, it says that if the setting isn't activated, then it uses "the character that your keyboard driver software provides is inserted." [17:40] <@mirek2> hm.... sorry, I'm probably not making much sense right now [17:40] <@mirek2> in any case, I suppose I wouldn't be against killing the option [17:40] id tend to say kill it and always take the character provided by the locale, but if you say advanced then... fine [17:41] <@mirek2> no, I guess I say kill it as well [17:41]  well, if we're killing extra settings, that one deserves it [17:41] come on, now its crying. [17:42] <@mirek2> :) [17:42] <@mirek2> Default currency [17:42]  "default currency" is definitely generic/advances, though -- imagine you're writing a doc in, say, Russian, that deals with international deals in, say, U.S. Dollars. [17:43]  (oops.. "deals with deals" : [17:43] wouldnt that make it document-specific [17:43] ? [17:43]  well, depends on whether there is someone who would do that on a regular basis [17:43] <@mirek2> the default is there just to make things faster, but it doesn't prevent you from using different currency [17:44] <@mirek2> it doesn't really make sense to set on a document basis [17:44] that really is what the locale is for, no? [17:44] <@mirek2> yes [17:44] <@mirek2> advanced or unnecessary? [17:45]  depends on whether the user will be able to set different parts of locale without this option [17:45]  if yes, then unnecessary [17:45] <@mirek2> so advanced, then :) [17:45] <@mirek2> astron? [17:45] advanced means somethign like mozilla's about:config panel [17:46] id go for unnecessary... as a tendency [17:46] <@mirek2> I would lean toward that as well [17:46] ill have to leave now. see you. [17:46] == astron247 [~frootzowr@dslb-088-074-230-105.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #libreoffice-design [] [17:46] <@mirek2> ok, see you [17:47] <@mirek2> usr_share: would you like to continue on with the options? [17:47] <@mirek2> or would you like to discuss another topic of your choice? [17:48]  let's go on [17:49] <@mirek2> btw, I'm marking this option as Unnecessary, and then we'll ask to see if anyone needs it [17:50] <@mirek2> ok... default language [17:51] <@mirek2> generic, I would say [17:51]  the different options for different writing systems are generic [17:51] <usr_share> but "For the current doc only" is a bit confusing [17:51] <usr_share> if it's for the current doc, why not move it to somewhere else? [17:51] <@mirek2> yeah, I think that one should go away [17:52] <@mirek2> since we have a Tools>Language>For all text entry [17:53] <@mirek2> actually, now that I look at it, it should be Contextual, as the tools menu doesn't yet include a CTL/Asian language entry [17:53] <@mirek2> do you agree? [17:55] <usr_share> well, for the default settings, they make sense [17:55] <usr_share> but on a per-document basis, I don't think every user would need separate settings for all three [17:56] <@mirek2> unfortunately, I've never used the Asian or CTL settings [17:57] <@mirek2> I assume there might be use-cases where part of a document uses Asian glyphs, part doesn't [17:59] <@mirek2> what do you think? [17:59] <@mirek2> is it ok if I mark it "Contextual"? [17:59] <@mirek2> or should I mark it "Ask for use cases"? [17:59] <usr_share> i guess ok [17:59] <usr_share> better mark then [17:59] <@mirek2> the former or the latter? [18:00] <usr_share> latter [18:00] <usr_share> ask for use cases [18:00] <@mirek2> ok [18:01] <@mirek2> enhanced language support: generic, I would say [18:01] <usr_share> i'd say so, too [18:01] <@mirek2> ok [18:01] <usr_share> especially since this option looks like it'll eat a lot of resources when enabled [18:02] <@mirek2> + it adds some menu items [18:02] <@mirek2> I'd also mark all the Asian language stuff generic [18:03] <usr_share> sorry, i'll have to quit for a little bit [18:03] == usr_share [~usr_share@95-27-108-62.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] [18:03] == usr_share [~usr_share@95-27-108-62.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #libreoffice-design [18:03] <usr_share> back [18:04] <usr_share> CTL stuff is generic too, then? [18:05] <@mirek2> yeah, I think so [18:06] <usr_share> writing aids then? [18:07] <@mirek2> hm, I think I'd leave it there for now, I don't really feel like getting into spellcheck options [18:07] <@mirek2> btw, have you subscribed to the mailing list? [18:07] <usr_share> I think these options are more in "user's comfort" area [18:07] <usr_share> not yet [18:07] <@mirek2> yeah, I guess [18:07] <@mirek2> I'd just like to leave them for next time [18:08] <@mirek2> btw, you can subscribe to the list without having to receive e-mail, if that'd be preferable for you [18:08] <@mirek2> (so you'd be able to post, just wouldn't receive anything) [18:09] <usr_share> i'll think about iy [18:09] <usr_share> *it [18:10] <usr_share> well, I have to go now [18:10] <usr_share> thanks, and bye [18:10] <@mirek2> ok, take care [18:10] <@mirek2> thank you