Design/Meetings/2013-05-25

Attendees

 * issa_
 * maggie
 * SteveBell

Topics

 * Current tasks
 * Community interaction
 * Design Wiki

Log
[19:15] <@maggie> hello [19:16] <@maggie> i almost left. thought it was cancelled for this week [19:16]  hi [19:16]  I have no clue either [19:16]  I was trying to remove the underscore beside my name :p [19:18]  I guess we shall wait and see if anyone else will join [19:19] <@maggie> haven't been participating for a long time but i want to get involved again [19:19]  welcome back :) [19:19]  I only joined the design team this year [19:22] <@maggie> pretty cool [19:22] <@maggie> how are you finding it? [19:22]  pretty fun and rewarding [19:26] <@maggie> I wanted to talk about the proposal to make badges for members [19:27] <@maggie> saw it on the mailing list but i dont' want to discuss until everyone is here [19:27]  ok [19:27]  now lets hope they are coming :( [19:30] <@maggie> i read the past two chat logs about the work on the color picker [19:31]  yes we were supposed to discuss it today [19:32] <@maggie> my old proposal is here: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Gsoc_color_picker_proposal.png [19:32] <@maggie> I understand that it's been archived and that you are almost done with the current one so there isn't much I can add or need to add there [19:33] <@maggie> just want to have a better idea of what has been done and what needs to be looked at [19:33]  I like that flower thingy, we need a good "digital" way of choosing colors [19:34] <@maggie> such as? [19:34]  I meant the flower thing is a good way [19:35]  I've always liked msoffice's color hexagon http://www.codeproject.com/KB/miscctrl/XColorHexagonCtrl/XColorHexagonCtrl1.png [19:35] <@maggie> it looks nice but I don't think it's practical [19:35] <@maggie> too big for the picker for one and i'm not sure how usable it would actually be [19:36]  the hexagon is very useful but in the "more colors" dialog, not the popover itself [19:36]  here's the proposal I've uploaded today https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:I_colorpicker.png [19:37]  I think the popover should stay simple and the custom colors should stay in a dialog [19:41] <@maggie> where would the color palette menu be located in your proposal? [19:41] <@maggie> it's not clear from what I'm looking at? [19:41] <@maggie> wait I get it now [19:42] <issa_> my description is a bit confusing, sorry about that [19:42] <@maggie> it works like Open Color Picker --> choose palettes --> pick palette type [19:42] <issa_> what do you mean type? [19:44] <@maggie> where it says Pallette in your first image. [19:44] <@maggie> the pallette options are next to it in a drop-down menu [19:44] <issa_> yes [19:45] <@maggie> okay, makes sense [19:45] <issa_> it's for choosing a palette [19:45] <@maggie> i like how the custom color dialog comes out to a seperate panel [19:45] <issa_> I'm thinking it would have several variations standard, pastel, neon etc as well as reds, greens, blues, etc. [19:45] <@maggie> grayscale too [19:46] <issa_> yeah that too [19:46] <issa_> the custom color dialog is already implemented in LibreOffice [19:47] <issa_> but you can only access it from tools > options, can't use the colors immediately [19:52] <@maggie> just looking at the current proposals for tentative design [19:52] <@maggie> i'm trying to think of a way how the colors could be used without having to go to tools > options [19:53] <@maggie> couldn't there be a shortcut button in the color picker to get to the custom colors? [19:53] <@maggie> I see that in all the proposals [19:53] <issa_> yes of course [19:53] <issa_> but since no one (developer) has worked on the color picker yet it's not there [19:54] <issa_> someone should work on it once we finish the design [19:54] <issa_> (assuming we will ever do :p) [19:55] <@maggie> looks like you are all doing fine on that front [19:56] <@maggie> I just saw the proposal for this : https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Font_Repository_Integration [19:56] <@maggie> I'm interested in working on it; i'll have some mockups done within 1 or 2 weeks [19:57] <issa_> cool, that one hasn't been update in a long time [19:57] <issa_> *updated [20:03] <@maggie> i'm impressed by what I saw in mirek's design [20:03] <@maggie> I don't think I've ever used an office program that asked to either provide alternatives or install missing fonts in the document [20:05] <@maggie> it reminds me of when you use Firefox and you visit a site using a different font site (ex. site using Spanish characters) and it offers to install that font for you if it's not on the computer [20:06] == SteveBell [~Adium@p548F5CAB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #libreoffice-design [20:08] <issa_> yes this would be really helpful once implemented [20:08] <issa_> hello SteveBell [20:09] <SteveBell> hey issa_ :) [20:09] <SteveBell> is the meeting still ongoing? [20:10] <SteveBell> or you're just hanging out here? [20:10] <issa_> I think it haven't started yet :p [20:10] <issa_> no one else came [20:10] <SteveBell> ah shoots [20:10] <@maggie> is there anything you want to discuss? [20:11] <@maggie> i haven't been here for a long time so I'm trying to do the best i can [20:11] <SteveBell> I basically came here by accident but there are plenty of open things and I have some time on my hands. [20:12] <SteveBell> would you two be interested in discussing and current tasks? [20:12] <SteveBell> or anything on your minds? [20:12] <issa_> we were supposed to chat about the color picker today [20:12] <@maggie> sure [20:12] <issa_> but I guess we should leave it for next week [20:12] * SteveBell heads over to the design wiki [20:12] <SteveBell> I've been a little active in QA lately [20:13] <issa_> maggie: you can update your proposal for next week if you'd like [20:13] <issa_> SteveBell: sorry, go on [20:13] <SteveBell> there are some structural things those guys are doing good that I think the design team could benefit from. but we can discuss taht later. not meaning to interrupt [20:13] <@maggie> which one? the color handler or the font repository? [20:14] <@maggie> ^ issa) [20:14] <issa_> the color handler since we were supposed decide on that this week [20:14] <@maggie> in that case I would go with what you have now [20:15] <@maggie> don't think there's anything else I could add there that hasn't already been covered by better designs than mine [20:15] <issa_> no problem [20:15] <issa_> SteveBell: let me check the QA [20:17] <SteveBell> stupid question: the flat icon set: is that for android or for the desktop version? [20:17] <issa_> desktop version [20:18] <SteveBell> wow that is nice [20:18] <SteveBell> how is that coming along? better icons are needed sooooo badly [20:18] <issa_> I've finished the standard toolbars for Writer and Calc [20:19] <issa_> the moment I finish Impress it should be included in the master [20:19] <SteveBell> yes. that is awesome news [20:19] <SteveBell> kudos to you!!! [20:19] <@maggie> very nice and well done [20:19] <SteveBell> I hope you know how much the world is waiting for this [20:20] <issa_> SteveBell: yeah I feel like I should hurry up [20:20] <SteveBell> everybody I talk to thinks LO is fine but the look is outdated. those icons are the stuff people look at mostly. and they will be welcome very much. [20:21] <issa_> SteveBell: lets go back to the qa [20:22] <SteveBell> yes, should I start my rambling? [20:22] <issa_> yes please [20:23] <SteveBell> ok, well I am noticing that the design team has tons of work on their plate but a very small team [20:23] <SteveBell> the same applies to the QA team [20:24] <SteveBell> but I'm noticing a slight difference in the way the team works [20:24] <SteveBell> this is many minor points and I'm not sure which can be useful to improve the situation design is in [20:24] <SteveBell> e.g. QA is making extensive use of IRC [20:24] <SteveBell> that does imo have several positive side effects [20:25] <issa_> such as? [20:25] <SteveBell> feedback can be given early on, on each step of going through an open task [20:26] <SteveBell> I think thats very important because work in wrong directions can be omitted (as in spending time on sth that might be rejected later) [20:26] <issa_> but we can't even stick to the meetings each week! [20:26] <@maggie> what are the differences? [20:27] <SteveBell> also (for me) it's great. the QA team is bigger but when triaging the feedback of some more experienced users can be very helpful [20:27] <SteveBell> should a new user interested in participating hit the channel by accident there's someone to answer initial questions [20:27] <SteveBell> and I like visiting their chan [20:28] <SteveBell> that might help to get peopel to return [20:28] <SteveBell> and further participate [20:28] <issa_> but we don't have people to always stick around [20:28] <SteveBell> I tried establishing that a while ago with suggesting a FB page and coordination posts on G+, FB and diaspora when a meeting took place. [20:28] <SteveBell> I know [20:29] <SteveBell> and I'm not trying to suggest it is one of our tasks to "be available" or sth like that [20:29] <SteveBell> but depending on your workflow hanging in the chan might help [20:29] <SteveBell> * it doesn't make the chan look idle [20:30] <SteveBell> * accidental users may get replies (as you say we can't guarantee that - but that's not my point) [20:30] <issa_> I think it would be the same as long as the channel isn't active [20:30] <SteveBell> isn't that a circular argument? [20:31] <issa_> what do you mean? [20:31] <SteveBell> well if we as core members don't use the chan how is it gonna be active at all?!? [20:32] <SteveBell> again, not attampting to push an 24h availability [20:32] <SteveBell> but e.g. when someone is working on sth LO related, why not hang in the chan [20:33] <SteveBell> someone *might* pass by or not but the channel is used / active and that's the first step and also requirement for the chan to become active [20:33] <issa_> sure I wouldn't mind hanging out here [20:33] <SteveBell> perfect. since it's not frequented a lot it wouldn't mean additional work. [20:34] <SteveBell> but it can serve as a community building thing [20:34] <SteveBell> I just talked to joel in QA. he told me he's going to visit europe. not LO related at all. but since I like the guy I care [20:35] <SteveBell> and after exchanging a couple of sentences we may or may not switch to a LO related thing [20:35] <SteveBell> you get the idea? [20:35] <SteveBell> then besides that imo being a good starting point to being open [20:35] <issa_> yeah, but I'm still not convinced it would work when we're only a handful of people [20:35] <issa_> take the meetings as an example, how many people attend these? [20:36] <SteveBell> who am I to guarantee. also does that matter? just keep adium open and maybe I'll hop on or someone else might [20:36] <SteveBell> for the meetings [20:36] <SteveBell> so we all agree we have a fresh blood problem? [20:36] <issa_> I guess [20:37] <SteveBell> since some social media things exist: let's make more usage of that. the few times we did that with mirec2 we had 3-4 new people hop on the meeting [20:37] <SteveBell> that might lead to noob questions, it might cause digression [20:37] <SteveBell> but how else are we gonna get more people interested? [20:37] <SteveBell> we did this once or twice [20:38] <SteveBell> then decided the time was not worth it or sth like that. [20:38] <SteveBell> imo we should do that [20:38] <SteveBell> post a msg 3-4h before the meeting and the 10 minutes before again [20:38] <SteveBell> let's see what happens [20:39] == maggie [6368baab@gateway/web/freenode/ip.99.104.186.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] [20:40] <SteveBell> what do you think? [20:40] == maggie [6368baab@gateway/web/freenode/ip.99.104.186.171] has joined #libreoffice-design [20:41] just got disconnected don't know why [20:41] <SteveBell> hey maggie [20:41] <SteveBell> welcome back [20:41] <SteveBell> what do you think about all that? [20:41] from what i was able to see it's appealing but there aren't many members of the design team [20:42] <SteveBell> hehe, that was my starting point [20:42] also we live in different time zones [20:42] <SteveBell> yes many obstacles but maybe better than nothing? [20:42] there needs to be a way to maybe get attention for LO so that people who want to help will be more likely to join in [20:42] i'm actually a noob at working on open source projects [20:43] but what i've noticed is that if you're not used to working in OS projects it can be a little intimidating at first [20:43] <SteveBell> I'm a noob at all of this. but that's not a problem [20:43] just my opinion [20:43] <SteveBell> yes, maybe [20:43] <SteveBell> that's why I named the QA as a positive example [20:43] <SteveBell> you are very right about intimiating [20:44] <SteveBell> over 8k bugs tones of priority levels, sometimes triaging can be confusing. but as a new guy you can get help in the irc [20:44] <SteveBell> or use the wiki as a msg board etc we just need to be creative [20:44] <SteveBell> getting more people involved is a point that needs to be addressed. QA has the problem as well [20:45] <SteveBell> their idea: doing a bug triaging contest [20:45] <SteveBell> I find that a good idea [20:45] <SteveBell> not applicable to design but maybe we can find sth similar [20:45] <SteveBell> making bigger use of the social sites would be another approach [20:46] <SteveBell> e.g. I'm not sure if the new icons where mentioned at all [20:46] <SteveBell> let's start teasing the people [20:46] <SteveBell> they'll read and applaud and if we do it right maybe more will contribute [20:48] <SteveBell> as for getting more user involved maybe a contribute button can be brought to the splash screen?!? have to address that with QA [20:48] <SteveBell> also another point would be: so far I noticed very little cross team interaction [20:48] issa, do you know where the current member list for the Design team is at? [20:49] I checked the page for Design but it's not there anymore [20:49] <SteveBell> true. can't find that [20:50] <issa_> maggie: it is there but it's not updated [20:50] <SteveBell> in QA we keep touching spots that might be in the design departements field. I assume it goes the other way around as well? [20:50] <SteveBell> issa_ link? [20:51] <issa_> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Team [20:51] <SteveBell> ah thanks [20:52] <issa_> the new icons were mentioned in the social networks by people [20:52] <SteveBell> so I'd suggest to come by the QA chan if you want [20:52] <issa_> but since they mostly ask about when will they be available it won't be a good idea if we post about them [20:53] <issa_> as for a contribute button you should discuss it with the ux mailing list [20:53] <SteveBell> hmm, there is an easy answer to that "when they are done" and you shouldn't feel any pressure. that's not why were posting thre [20:53] <SteveBell> I'm on no mailing lists [20:54] <SteveBell> I don't even know who has access to the social sites [20:54] <SteveBell> maybe that should be specified somewehre on the wiki as well [20:54] <issa_> it is [20:54] <SteveBell> and again: IRC could come in handy. if mirek was here more often I could ask why not post this and that. etc pp [20:55] <issa_> you don't have to be on the mailing list to contact them, you could use nabble or ask them to cc you [20:55] <SteveBell> I know [20:55] <SteveBell> that info is not on the team site is it? [20:55] <issa_> I'm not sure [20:56] <SteveBell> ok some more specific things [20:56] <SteveBell> how do you like the new wiki feature that the current section is highlighted? [20:57] <issa_> it looks a bit ugly tbh [20:57] <SteveBell> hehe that's honest. [20:58] <SteveBell> well it's not a beauty but it's imo very useful [20:58] <SteveBell> we've done that in QA and received no feedback so far, that's why I'm asking [20:59] <SteveBell> issa_ do you have anything in mind how to improve or an alternative solution? [20:59] <SteveBell> maggie I'm talking about https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design [20:59] <issa_> wasn't it bolded before? [20:59] <SteveBell> the section highlighting in the top bar [20:59] <SteveBell> y [21:00] <SteveBell> you prefere that? [21:04] <issa_> yes, it's more aesthecally appealling [21:04] <SteveBell> your vote has been counted :) ok I'll tell that to colonelquibit when he shows up [21:04] <SteveBell> that's what I mean: just pop up in QA and tell them [21:04] been away for a minutes was checking on some work [21:05] <SteveBell> the better we communicate the better the end result [21:05] <SteveBell> welcome back maggie [21:05] <SteveBell> np [21:05] either one is fine, just so long as it shows which section you're in. [21:05] have no opinion on that [21:05] <SteveBell> ok, thanks for the feedback [21:07] <SteveBell> ok, let's move on [21:07] <SteveBell> I think I addressed that when the new wiki icons were choosen [21:07] <SteveBell> I'll re-address it now [21:07] <SteveBell> imo 5 icons on the wiki welcome page is one too many [21:07] <SteveBell> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design [21:08] <SteveBell> that is the welcome page of design. it should look great and have a clean structure and a nice welcoming to the user [21:08] <SteveBell> currently it's overwhelming [21:08] <SteveBell> no one will digest that information [21:08] <SteveBell> let's reduce and have more detailed info on the according sub pages. [21:08] <SteveBell> what do you think= [21:09] <SteveBell> ? [21:10] i think the five icons cover each section of the Design wiki [21:11] <SteveBell> true that, but do they need to? [21:11] <SteveBell> the sections are covered in the top menu bar, right? [21:11] they're concise in how they explain where they lead too [21:11] <SteveBell> no need to create entire duplicate structures [21:11] so i personally don't find them overwhelming [21:12] <SteveBell> they do match what they are meant to symbolize, yes [21:12] <SteveBell> but I just think the page in total is a little bit too much [21:12] <SteveBell> also did you already read the UX Principles or the guidelinse? [21:12] <SteveBell> *Guidelines [21:13] <SteveBell> issa_ any thoughts? [21:13] the menu and the icons are redundant [21:13] but the text in the menu is quite small [21:13] <issa_> what would you remove from them [21:14] <issa_> maggie: exactly, plus the icons are more attractive [21:14] <issa_> my original idea was to pair each one of these with a box (join, design, etc.) [21:15] <SteveBell> I would totally remove the User Experience Principles and the sub-link of that) because those are so very detailed. no new user will be interested in those. [21:15] <SteveBell> plus: most of them can be solved by applying a normal level of sanity [21:15] but what is defined as a normal level of sanity? [21:16] that differs from user to user, depending on experience [21:16] <SteveBell> I don't think the icons need to cover all menu items. they should bring the visitors attention to the most important points. in our case that is: current whiteboards, and meetings to get more participants [21:16] <SteveBell> sure, but we don't even have that problem right now do we? [21:17] <SteveBell> if we had 20 users working on stuff and offering work that is not consistend with the guidelines: sure put that on the front page. but in the situation we are currently in I have my doubts this is neccessary [21:18] <SteveBell> I'm not saying we should delete that wiki page. I'M arguing that we should focus on the most important things on the welcome page [21:18] i think the guidelines are there so that people who want to contribute who aren't too experienced with UI/UX work have an idea of what the team is looking for [21:19] I agree that the wiki page should focus on the most important things but mentioning the standards for UX that the team follows gives potential volunteers some idea of where to start. [21:19] <SteveBell> all true. but where are those people. and again, if someone is really willing to work on sth he'll show up in a meeting or IRC and we can talk and post the link [21:21] that's assuming that people will be on the IRC often enough for that to happen [21:21] social media I could see, but irc not sure [21:22] <SteveBell> or nabble or whatever [21:22] <SteveBell> that is imo a secondary question [21:22] <SteveBell> we'll get that covered somehow I think [21:23] <issa_> When I reworked the page it was meetings, whiteboards, archive and resources [21:23] <issa_> didn't we agree on the rest in a meeting? [21:24] <SteveBell> I disagreed [21:24] <SteveBell> ok well then I have one last point [21:24] <SteveBell> again wiki [21:25] <SteveBell> not sure who it was but someone used that rounded corners for the wiki [21:25] <SteveBell> I showed that to QA they did like it a lot [21:25] <SteveBell> is it somehow possible to make that a default for all boxes in the wiki? otherwise it's somehow rather inconsistent [21:27] <issa_> I'm not sure, I think you'd have to change all pages [21:27] <issa_> but I think I like it beter this way [21:27] <issa_> *better [21:28] <SteveBell> wow that would be a major task but again that might be an item both for QA and design [21:30] <SteveBell> so we all agree those rounded corners are nicer on the eyes? [21:30] <SteveBell> then I'll make that an idea for QA and we'll go from there. [21:32] <SteveBell> maggie do you have time on your hands? would you be willing to contribute to that? [21:32] sure [21:32] i'll just need to learn more about the wiki syntax [21:32] <SteveBell> I think we can get that sorted [21:33] are the rounded corners just for those boxes around Join, Share, etc [21:33] also, what's the deadline for that? [21:33] <SteveBell> hehe the tast might sound overwhelming but I think we are talking all boxes in the entire wiki [21:33] <SteveBell> no deadline. things get done when they get done [21:34] <SteveBell> and you don#t have to do that along [21:34] <SteveBell> but maybe we should start with the design section [21:34] <SteveBell> maggie do you already have a wiki account? [21:34] yes [21:34] <SteveBell> great. would you mind adding that item to the QA ideas page? [21:34] <SteveBell> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/Projects/Ideas [21:36] <SteveBell> is that ok? else I can do that [21:37] SteveBell, what do you want the summary to be? [21:38] Something like "Rounded corners make the boxes look more consistent for the wiki as a whole. They are also more asthetic." [21:38] <issa_> SteveBell: I prefer sharp corners but it really doesn't matter [21:38] <SteveBell> Adjust design of boxes used in wiki to rounded corners. As discussed in QA  /design that was a preference. [21:39] <SteveBell> issa_ ah ok [21:39] <SteveBell> hmmm [21:39] <SteveBell> hm, why not add that item nonetheless [21:39] <SteveBell> it can be further discussed in QA to get more opinions on this [21:40] <SteveBell> maggie feel free to adjust the last sentence of summary accordingly [21:40] <issa_> not a big deal, but sure why not [21:40] <issa_> (I also think we've discussed this before in a meeting) [21:41] <SteveBell> issa_ should we add your name to the icon whiteboard page? currently it's not clear if someone is working on that [21:41] <SteveBell> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Flat_icon_set [21:42] <issa_> there is my name and the last update date at the end of the page [21:42] <SteveBell> that just says that the wiki was modified by you [21:42] <SteveBell> could be anybody [21:43] <SteveBell> I'm saying it would be helpful to maybe link to your wiki-username and add that at the top that you are at it [21:43] <SteveBell> no? [21:43] quick question: do you want the titles for the Ideas on the QA wiki to be title case or lowercase only? [21:44] <SteveBell> can you use just the same format as the idea above? just copy / paste or open in a second tab to have a look @maggie [21:44] <issa_> SteveBell: maybe I should add it like Markus here? https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Blueprints [21:45] <SteveBell> maybe both [21:45] <SteveBell> :) [21:45] okay then i'll stick with lower case [21:47] <SteveBell> issa_ https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Flat_icon_set [21:47] <SteveBell> ok? [21:47] <issa_> SteveBell: no, I think it should only be outside [21:48] <SteveBell> fine. [21:48] <SteveBell> it's gone [21:48] <SteveBell> can I can I also add Write / numbers done Impress to-be done [21:49] changed it; https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/Projects/Ideas [21:49] check idea 2.10 [21:49] <SteveBell> perfect thanks maggie [21:49] <issa_> SteveBell: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards [21:50] <SteveBell> maggie I added another empty line above to match the existing ideas [21:50] okay [21:50] so, when should I work on the rounded corners? [21:50] <SteveBell> perfect issa_ [21:50] <SteveBell> that would be all from my side [21:51] okay then [21:51] <SteveBell> ah issa_ what about the status? [21:51] <SteveBell> can I add taht info? [21:51] <SteveBell> to give more details where we're at? [21:53] <issa_> put it where? [21:53] <SteveBell> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Flat_icon_set under the status bar? [21:53] <issa_> the pictures show everything I made [21:54] <SteveBell> yes but it's not easy to understand where we're at in a first glance [21:55] <issa_> but there isn't a real estimate about how much is left [21:55] <issa_> I have no clue how many icons are there [21:55] == SteveBell [~Adium@p548F5CAB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Excess Flood] [21:56] == SteveBell [~Adium@p548F5CAB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #libreoffice-design [21:58] <issa_> [21:55] <issa_> but there isn't a real estimate about how much is left [21:58] <issa_> [21:55] <issa_> I have no clue how many icons are there [21:58] <SteveBell> hm, sure but why not list what's already done? [21:58] <SteveBell> but we don't have to of course [21:59] <issa_> it is listed, even better the work itself is there [22:00] <SteveBell> ok fine [22:03] <SteveBell> alright. is there more on the plate to be discussed? [22:04] <issa_> I have nothing [22:05] nope [22:05] has the log been copied? [22:05] I lost part of it when I got logged off [22:06] <issa_> maggie: it will be uploaded when we're done [22:06] alright [22:06] <issa_> are we done :p? [22:06] <SteveBell> we are :) [22:06] <SteveBell> issa_ maggie have a nice day. see you all soon... [22:07] :) [22:07] I will see you all later [22:07] <issa_> I will upload the log now [22:07] <issa_> see you later