Design/Meetings/2014-03-30

Attendees

 * mirek
 * abhra
 * mahfiaz

Topics

 * Styles UX (great advice collected by mirek from GDocs and Pages)

Log
[15:45:53] hi there [15:46:03] hi [15:46:22] what brings you to the chat? [15:46:22] is there a topic you'd like to discuss? [15:47:05] i always tried to attend this; unfortunately i never get the time of the chat right! :( [15:47:37] :) well, unfortunately, there have been no attendees lately [15:48:05] (and I myself have had very little time lately, so I'm not really active in the team ATM) [15:48:06] i guess mahfiaz is a bot!! [15:48:22] hi abhra [15:48:28] as he is the only one present here [15:48:28] no, it's a person :) [15:48:33] oh! [15:48:39] sorry mahfiaz [15:48:44] thanks for pinging me [15:49:04] anyway, anything you want to talk about? [15:49:12] I've been thinking about: [15:49:14] he was always present here. soi thought...... :) [15:49:23] he is, basically [15:49:29] abhra: Quassel IRC helps [15:49:48] a) holding this IRC chat monthly rather than weekly [15:50:02] b) assigning roles to design team members (long overdue, IMHO) [15:50:21] what's your area of interest, abhra ? [15:51:31] please define "area of interest" [15:52:02] in terms of the design team -- e.g. graphic design, interaction design, development, user testing, ... [15:55:05] basically, user testing mirek2 [15:55:34] however, i am not able to do for sometime now because of other pressures. [15:55:42] ok [15:56:20] actually, that's something that we should get rolling as well [15:57:21] trying to send a screenshot to you [15:57:37] mirek2, is it working? [15:57:46] never tried it before? [15:58:05] I'm chatting through the webchat.freenode.net website [15:58:16] have never tried it before [15:58:24] not sure if it's possible through the web interface [15:58:47] ok [15:58:58] any tips? [15:58:59] should I install xchat? [15:59:06] i will upload the image and share the file [15:59:13] thanks [15:59:43] using xchat since the time i started using linux! [16:00:03] :) [16:00:29] I'll install it anyway, then [16:02:55]  and now I'm on xchat [16:03:15] good! :) [16:03:30] wait, i will try the image sharing again then [16:05:56]  got it, thanks [16:06:21]  it'd be great if we had the style picker in the sidebar, if that's what you're getting at [16:06:28] ok,so it worked.good [16:06:32] exactly. [16:06:55] someone mentioned it in the mailing list as well [16:07:00] i am using libreoffice 4.1.3.2 with xubuntu 13.10 [16:07:23] i am not sure if its changed in the latest editions. [16:07:41] but i should be done to reduce mix ups [16:08:14]  I definitely agree [16:08:40] only if style option is present in the sidebar, the formatting toolbar could be removed. all other options are already present in sidebar [16:08:52]  see https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=73071 [16:09:13]  I'm not sure about removing the formatting toolbar, though [16:10:09]  (while the sidebar might be suitable for advanced formatting needs, the toolbar is great for small screens, quick edits, and those who need two windows side-by-side) [16:10:45] ok [16:11:34]  that's just my personal view, though [16:11:41]  would be good to test it [16:12:17]  translators use side-by-side windows a lot, would be good to test on them sometime [16:12:32] in a perfect world sidebar could be dragged to the top and look like toolbar [16:12:36] one other thing, will it be possible to keyboard shortcuts as a separate option in the sidebar. just like navigation,gallery,properties [16:12:58] mahfiaz, awesome idea! [16:13:25]  abhra, you mean a shortcut for opening/closing the sidebar? [16:13:35] then again to some it might resemble ribbon a lot [16:14:09] no mirek_2 .list of keyboard shortcuts [16:15:08]  as in, something like http://xlcalibre.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Alt-Keyboard-Shortcuts.png ? [16:17:13]  on toolbars vs sidebars -- I see the toolbar as a quick-access tool, whereas the sidebar is a much more powerful tool, hopefully replacing the formatting dialogs we have in the future [16:18:51] I like that better, but how about side-by-side workflow you mentioned earlier? [16:19:08]  e.g. formatting toolbar is to http://images.macworld.com/images/news/graphics/158689-byword-screen-386_original.jpg what the properties sidebar pane is to http://www.openlogic.com/Portals/172122/images/multi-purpose-paragraph-style-resized-600.png [16:20:36]  mahfiaz, all the commonly-used formatting tools should be in the toolbar (which should be user-customizable, btw), [16:21:00]  so the sidebar would be needed only for advanced formatting needs [16:21:24] actually, i like sidebar better! but its my personal choice [16:23:06] mirek_2: if the best UI for using styles is sidebar, then I wouldn't call it "advanced", since IMHO we should do everything to make using styles easier [16:23:34] <mirek_2> mahfiaz, I don't think the best UI for using styles is a sidebar [16:23:51] no i dont either [16:24:19] <mirek_2> I really like what Google Docs is doing with style management [16:24:51] <mirek_2> and iWork Pages copies that behavior [16:25:06] what are they doing? [16:25:26] abhra: pretty much the same as writer's toolbar does right now, IMHO [16:25:52] ok [16:26:08] mirek_2: or did I miss something important? [16:26:16] <mirek_2> several things: [16:26:31] <mirek_2> a) each style has its own menu [16:26:44] <mirek_2> which allows quick style editing [16:27:15] <mirek_2> b) the menu also shows a keyboard shortcut for each style [16:27:35] <mirek_2> iWork Pages goes further and allows the user to set a shortcut from the menu [16:28:04] <mirek_2> keyboard shortcuts make using styles really efficient -- it's a huge advantage [16:28:48] <mirek_2> c) whenever you apply hard formatting to styled text, iWork offers a prominent button to change the style based on the edits made [16:29:31] <mirek_2> d) Pages allows creation of styles from the pop-over [16:29:54] <mirek_2> e) both Pages and Docs list all the styles available, not just a selection [16:30:05] <mirek_2> (they have a much narrower selection) [16:30:16] <mirek_2> f) some styles are context-aware [16:31:04] <mirek_2> e.g. if the highest level you're using in the document is Heading 3, the style list only offers you Headings 1-4 [16:31:17] <mirek_2> Heading 5 appears once Heading 4 is used [16:33:03] <mirek_2> I think that's all, at least in terms of paragraph styles [16:33:44] <mirek_2> (on a separate note, iWork is using the sidebar for formatting only) [16:34:09] I like all the points, these would definitely make work and learning styles go faster [16:34:19] <mirek_2> (bad wording: it's using only the sidebar for formatting) [16:35:07] <mirek_2> there's an easyhack about the menus here: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=62081 [16:35:11] <mirek_2> would be a start... [16:37:33] <mirek_2> tell me if you have some tips on how to get some developers hacking on this [16:39:48] hanging out in IRC, evangelizing, giving positive feedback early, giving recognition for things done [16:40:05] will probably take quite some time [16:42:37] <mirek_2> yup [16:43:13] <mirek_2> btw, if either of you want to reach out to devs, that'd be excellent [16:45:06] will it be possible to add a line in the startup page encouraging use of styles. [16:45:46] something like " do you productivity could be increased hugely by using styles for creation of documents" and then a link to the help page for styles [16:46:16] <mirek_2> ideally, styles should be self-explanatory [16:46:18] "do you 'know'..." [16:46:22] abhra: what you are talking about is "quick tips" startup dialog, which you probably are familiar with [16:46:41] mahfiaz, yes [16:46:52] I myself am not a fan of these, although I have found them to be useful at times, but mostly just annoying [16:47:20] actually i have seen people (including myself) unaware of styles [16:47:39] i am using libreoffice since its beginning [16:47:51] mirek_2: maybe renaming "Main text" style to "Normal text" and making it default style instead of default would be good (just as gdocs does it) [16:48:01] <mirek_2> yes, but that's a problem with the presentation of styles [16:48:14] however, i have never used styles (or rather nothing but the default style) until few months back [16:48:37] <mirek_2> there are a number of problems with the current LibO UI [16:48:50] "Default" means pretty much nothing but "Normal text" seems like something worth checking out [16:48:50] <mirek_2> styles are still much more of a hassle to use than hard formatting [16:49:00] <mirek_2> mahfiaz, I agree [16:49:12] since then i am finding the benefits of styles. [16:49:13] <mirek_2> we have text body, which is more fitting [16:49:49] <mirek_2> the solution here is to improve the style UX, not to force styles on users when working with them is a hassle [16:50:29] <mirek_2> once the style UX becomes superior to the hard formatting UX, people will switch over automatically [16:50:38] mirek_2: "Text body" would have to be default style for the dropdown to be selfguiding [16:50:47] mirek_2: agreed [16:51:32] <mirek_2> take a look at the styles in Pages 2014 sometime: http://gigaom2.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/screen-shot-2013-10-24-at-7-01-47-pm.png?w=708&h=409 [16:52:13] <mirek_2> the implementation has its flaws, but styles are displayed prominently, they're simple to edit, can be applied with a keyboard shortcut, and in general just pleasant to use [16:52:44] mirek_2: is there anything other wrong with style UX other than numbered points above? (editing could be less cumbersome, as on the last screenshot) [16:53:24] <mirek_2> yes [16:53:29] (just trying to trick you into giving a detailed list) [16:53:31] <mirek_2> one problem I see has to do with themes [16:53:45] this is a real good implementation [16:53:57] <mirek_2> for example, I think the only reason we have a "Default" style is so that the user can theme all the other styles easily [16:54:29] <mirek_2> however, styles aren't really suited to take the place of themes as well [16:55:05] <mirek_2> (btw, for those not acquainted with themes, they're basically meta-styles) [16:55:24] <mirek_2> (you have theme colors, theme fonts, and theme effects) [16:56:12] <mirek_2> (basically, while styles are an abstraction of hard formatting, themes are an abstraction of styles) [16:56:40] <mirek_2> we don't have anything like themes in LibreOffice [16:57:07] mirek_2: templates do something similar [16:57:14] <mirek_2> which means that if you want to change your document's body font to a different one, you have to go through each style [16:57:25] <mirek_2> mahfiaz, well, templates are all hard-coded [16:57:28] the only problem is that you cannot apply change your template later [16:57:43] <mirek_2> you can import styles from templates, but that doesn't work nearly as well [16:58:05] <mirek_2> it's very messy because you have to deal with merging styles from the document with those from the template [16:58:52] (sidenote, that mess is no different from having themed stylesets, but that's not important) [16:58:52] <mirek_2> there's also no indicator as to what elements of the style are set and which ones are taken from the parent style or just from the defaults [16:59:31] <mirek_2> mahfiaz, with stylesheets, at least you know which elements are themed where [16:59:51] yup [17:00:08] <mirek_2> it's much easier to do a find and replace of a font-family than go through LibreOffice's formatting dialogs for each style separately [17:01:01] <mirek_2> it'd be nice if LibO allowed you to see your styles within a single document [17:01:11] +1 [17:01:17] <mirek_2> it would also be nice if styles used CSS as their format [17:01:29] <mirek_2> but that's just wishful thinking [17:02:03] <mirek_2> so, to give a list again: :) [17:02:28] <mirek_2> things missing from the theme UX: [17:02:29] <mirek_2> a) themes [17:02:38] <mirek_2> (style UX, sorry) [17:03:05] <mirek_2> b) indication of which properties are inherited, which aren't [17:04:04] <mirek_2> c) an overview of all themes, perhaps in the same manner as CSS stylesheets [17:05:19] <mirek_2> d) appropriate previews for different styles (e.g. page styles should provide previews) [17:05:53] <mirek_2> e) more style options (e.g. table styles) [17:06:21] <mirek_2> f) having the same style options across modules when appropriate [17:07:19] <mirek_2> (Impress currently uses "presentation styles" to theme everything from text to objects) [17:08:24] <mirek_2> g) less prominence given to hard formatting [17:08:58] <mirek_2> e.g. the font picker should not be as prominent as the style picker, given that one should only use 1-3 fonts in a document [17:10:32] like pages, either go for hard formatting or styles [17:10:35] <mirek_2> and it'd be nice if emphasis/"strong" replaced italic/bold in the formatting toolbar [17:10:40] i really like that approach [17:11:03] +1 [17:11:04] <mirek_2> the pages implementation is very style-oriented [17:11:52] <mirek_2> hard formatting is presented as a way to change the style rather than as a way to apply formatting directly [17:14:43] <mirek_2> one more thing: a simple UI for picking custom colors needs to be implemented [17:14:54] <mirek_2> that's very closely linked to themes and styles [17:15:06] <mirek_2> anyway, AFAIK, nobody is currently working on styles, colors, or themes [17:15:17] <mirek_2> you're both welcome to report further bugs and find devs [17:16:11] mirek_2: do all your reported related bugs have ux or some specific tag? [17:17:45] <mirek_2> the component tends to be UI, but it really depends on the bug [17:18:01] <mirek_2> here's a subset of UI bugs: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Blueprints [17:22:22] <mirek_2> anyway, should we end the chat? [17:22:33] <mirek_2> would one of you like to upload the log? [17:22:47] <mirek_2> (to https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings) [17:22:58] mirek_2, how to do that? [17:23:20] <mirek_2> create a page on https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings/2014-03-30 [17:23:45] <mirek_2> and copy over our discussion, using the same structure as https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings/2014-02-23 [17:24:15] <mirek_2> will you upload it, then? [17:31:54] <mirek_2> abhra: or should I take care of it? [17:32:13] i am reading the structure. [17:32:33] it might be better if you do it. less chance of mistake [17:32:48] <mirek_2> don't worry about it [17:33:06] <mirek_2> as long as the chat log is up there, it's fine [17:33:38] <mirek_2> I don't have the beginning of the conversation, so it'd be better if you could do it