Design/Meetings/2013-06-02

Attendees

 * issa
 * mirek2
 * SteveBell

Topics

 * Color picker
 * Flat icons

Log
mirek2: hi issa issa: hello mirek2  SteveBell mirek2: hi Steve mirek2: @issa: I assume you want to talk about the color picker? issa: yes mirek2: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Color_Picker mirek2: should I start with my comments? issa: sure, go ahead mirek2: 1) "Recent colors" doesn't belong under "Theme colors", as per our previous discussions mirek2:  2) Standard colors should not have a separate top row mirek2: they should be displayed just like any other color palette mirek2: (up till now, the Standard palette was editable, and thus doesn't always fit a nice grid) issa: 1) would a seperator do the trick? mirek2:  nope issa:  2) I'm okay with either mirek2: as I said before, I don't want to encourage mixing theme colors and static colors mirek2: 3) Theme colors are presented as a palette mirek2:  they're not really a standard palette, though issa:  3) see the alternate option down (two tabs) mirek2: that bottom option seems way too complex for me, on the other hand mirek2: and still has issues 1 and 2 issa: as I said 2 can easily be removed/fixed mirek2: right issa: as for 1 I disagree, it has to be there issa: you can add a seperator or whatever, but it has to always be visible mirek2: ok mirek2:  I disagree, but I don't think it's something we'll ever resolve issa: agreed mirek2: so, when it comes to the implementation, I would leave it up to the dev SteveBell: hi guys, was away and am rather busy atm. but might read along mirek2: ok issa:  This is how MS Office does it by the way: http://i.imgur.com/wvvJJzc.png mirek2: I know mirek2: however, they present everything in one view mirek2: and don't support palettes mirek2: another thing I'm somewhat sad about is the workflow for people who change colors a lot mirek2: having to add color by color isn't really a pleasant experience, IMHO issa: we've been there before mirek2: I know issa: I guess we'd either need a third party to decide or do a poll mirek2: third party: yes SteveBell: can I function as a third party?!? mirek2: but a designer third party mirek2: someone who would analyze the thing – SteveBell hat sich abgemeldet (Excess Flood) – SteveBell hat den Raum betreten mirek2: a poll: no, at least not a poll based on preference issa: ok lets split the matter into the core questions mirek2: SteveBell: what are your thoughts on the matter? mirek2: issa: and it would also be good to consult the dev on this matter issa: 1) custom color: dialog or popver? issa:  2) recent colors: placement/visibility? mirek2: 2) Recent colors: on the same screen as theme colors? issa:  mirek2: but in my design it's always there, regardless whether it's theme or palettes SteveBell:  are there links? what you are referring to? SteveBell:  I#m on https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Color_Picker mirek2:  issa: sure, but my issue is with it being shown along with the theme mirek2:  I don't mind it being shown with palettes mirek2:  given that palettes are static as well mirek2:  whereas themes are variable mirek2:  SteveBell: yes, that's the page mirek2:  look under Proposals mirek2:  issa: we did something similar for the Impress Remote mirek2:  see https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Impress_remote -> Open Problems issa:  we could add a 3) theme colors and palettes: together or separate tabs? mirek2: I would vehemently oppose having theme colors presented as a palette issa: mirek2: and how was that decided on? mirek2: but I wouldn't oppose it if it was in the same drop-down as palettes if it was separated well mirek2: e.g. https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:C-menu.png issa: mirek2: what do you mean separated well? mirek2: imagine "Theme colors" being in its own section issa: sure that's perfect mirek2: and there wouldn't be a "Palette:" label issa: no problem at all mirek2: alright, good mirek2: back to your proposal: mirek2: 4) I'd prefer if "Custom color" would be associated with the Recent colors section issa:  but then the color names won't appear for custom colors mirek2:  5) I'd prefer if the color label appeared below everything and previewed the color issa: I disagree with previewing the colors since it's supposedly designed for people with vision issues mirek2: it's also for people who are color blind issa: having the colors as a name only would make sure it's visible and clear for everyone mirek2: but a color preview won't hurt them issa: mirek2: and? it still would identify the color issa: I think the way it is currently implemented looks perfect mirek2: so just a on-hover label, then? mirek2: that'd be fine by me issa:  no no issa:  not the hover the one in the bottom mirek2: the thing is, right now, you have all the colors in the same section issa: the hover is a bit annoying when you're "browsing" colors mirek2: it's how MS Office implements it mirek2:  it's easy to find the selected color in the picker now, because there's no other place to look for it mirek2:  however, when you have various palettes, custom colors and theme colors, it's hard to find the current color issa: and why would you need to find it? mirek2: the picker might tell you that the current color is red, but you have no clue which red it is issa:  actually if the color is chosen that means you will most likely be on the same palette the color is in mirek2:  if you're opening an old document or someone else's, you might not be mirek2:  that's not the issue, though mirek2: what I was getting at is that it's harder to compare the current color with a new color when you don't have a preview issa: just a second mirek2: labels can be misleading issa: would the preview show the currently selected color or the color of the selected object? mirek2: it's your design, so you tell me mirek2:  I assumed you meant it to be like the current implementation issa: yes, mine shows the selected color mirek2: which shows the object's color until you hover over a color issa: if it's the selected color then %90 of the time you will be on the same palette issa: unless of course you chose a color then changed the palette (without choosing another color) mirek2: well, for one thing, the theme colors should not be labeled with color names, but with theme color names mirek2: e.g. "Accent 1" instead of "Red" mirek2: (Office does that, BTW) issa: it does both (Red, Accent 1) mirek2: on macOS, it seems to do just one mirek2: just "Accent 1" issa: oh, I'm on Windows mirek2: I'm on Linux, but I checked it out on my mom's laptop mirek2: and I'd prefer it to just show the theme color name issa: then that would ruin it for the color blind mirek2: no, as the person shouldn't care about the actual color mirek2: e.g. if he needs Red, then he needs to use a static color mirek2: if he wants a theme that uses red as an accent color, he should change the theme issa: I guess, but they could possibly make terribly mismatched themes issa: anyway back to the tooltips mirek2: themes use static colors, so when choosing theme colors, they would see the color names mirek2: I mean to say that themes are set with static colors mirek2: hopefully you understand what I mean issa: mirek2: yeah I get it now mirek2: anyway, I would assume that "Custom colors" would be the most frequent way to get a static color mirek2: though that's only an assumption issa: LibreOffice does the tooltips way too fast that they are annoying, in MS Office they only appear after a few seconds mirek2: since we're designing for the color-blind, I think they should appear instantly mirek2: LibreOffice's behavior never bothered me issa:  it bothers me mirek2:  and, in LibreOffice, it's more a label than a tooltip mirek2: oh, wait, just launched LibO and noticed that there' also an actual tooltip issa: yes that's what I'm talking about mirek2: which is strange, given that the label has the same info mirek2: yeah, I agree with you issa: exactly mirek2: I would keep one or the other issa: either keep the label or slowdown the tooltips mirek2: I would keep the label in the current implementation mirek2: anyway, given that "Recent colors" has a limited number of slots, sometimes the current color wouldn't be there at all mirek2: what do you think about previewing the color next to the color label? mirek2: simply showing a box next to the label issa: it's previewed on the toolbar button itself mirek2: right, but there it can be barely visible mirek2: but, ok, I guess I'd be fine with previewing the color at the bottom mirek2: I mean, with labels at the bottom mirek2: anyway, I guess I'd be fine with your design for the picker mirek2: I'd love for someone to do some user research, testing, ... mirek2: and I think we should probably discuss this further when we do find a developer issa: btw why are your palette colors fewer in quantity than the theme colors? mirek2: to fit snugly in a 10x10 grid, and simply because I don't think it's necessary to have 6 per color mirek2: a column-based layout isn't really possible -- every palette would have to have 10 colors then mirek2: and having some colors bleed into the next row is kind of... fugly issa: I see mirek2: anyway, I'd be fine with you labeling your proposal as the tentative design mirek2: as long as you remove the Palette: label mirek2: label theme colors with the theme color name mirek2: and present palettes in a grid issa: I'm modifying it as we're speaking mirek2: switching between theme colors and palettes could happen in the drop-down, so long as they're clearly separated mirek2: btw, recent colors: those would be global, I assume? mirek2: not document dependent? issa: yes mirek2: what's the difference between "Colors history" and "More recent colors"? issa: not just custom colors all colors from all palettes issa: should probably be replaced with document colors issa: (just a bad idea I quickly wrote down) mirek2: Recent colors wouldn't show colors from palettes? mirek2: if not, perhaps it should be called "Custom colors" or "Recent custom colors"? issa: should it show colors from palettes? mirek2: possibly... mirek2: if it doesn't, then I think it should be more tightly coupled with the "Custom colors" button issa: hmm issa: when I think about it would be useful for it to have the colors from other palettes issa: but then it would be silly to have the other palettes always available mirek2: Gnome does this: http://afaikblog.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/colour2.png?w=640 mirek2: it labels the section "Custom" and has a plus button for adding colors issa: I see mirek2: I personally really like that implementation mirek2: ... and it would save space issa: I don't like the idea of a plus button for something like that mirek2: why not? mirek2: I would think that it would be in line with ux-natural-mapping mirek2: given that "Recent colors" is where custom colors get added issa: well I don't necessarily have a logical reason :P mirek2: :) ok mirek2:  perhaps you're more comfortable with it because it's Office's design mirek2:  Google Drive has an interesting design as well, btw... mirek2:  http://www.google.com/help/hc/images/docs/docs_1696586_color_picker_en.gif mirek2:  "Custom..." is a button which launches the custom color picker mirek2:  that design also maps the recent colors to the custom color dialog mirek2:  also, clicking on the empty slots launches the dialog as well mirek2:  what do you think about that? mirek2:  (perhaps try it at first) issa:  ok now I get the Gnome design issa:  I didn't realize that the plus button was shaped like the colors! mirek2:  :) mirek2: do you still feel the same way about it? issa: it sounds a bit better issa: which program is that from btw? I use Gnome but I don't think I've ever ran into it mirek2: I remember running across the dialog when choosing a static color background mirek2: however, they seem to have changed that dialog and you can no longer choose a custom color, I believe issa: oh I see mirek2: I can't tell, though mirek2: running 3.8 on Ubuntu Gnome and it crashes when I try to pick a background color mirek2: if you have an older Gnome version, you might still have the dialog issa: btw is that what you meant by labeling the theme? http://i.imgur.com/tK0bVeI.png mirek2: I like the separator mirek2: don't like the ": LibreOffice", though issa: I thought that's what you meant mirek2: or the triangle on the right issa: you mentioned something about the theme name mirek2: I think I was talking about color labels issa: the triangle is because there is an arrow that shows interaction in the file I'm working on :P issa: oh alright then mirek2: labeling a color "Accent 1" instead of "Red" issa: http://i.imgur.com/3Drl2cH.png mirek2: the color picker still seems too separate mirek2: (e.g. background color, separator, ...) issa: the background color was supposed to denote selectable items mirek2: I don't understand mirek2: except for the labels, everything in the pop-over is selectable issa: true I guess mirek2: btw, as I said before, I don't think it'll be possible to have palettes presented in columns mirek2: also, it seems like you're missing a theme color mirek2: there should be 10 mirek2: (4 background/foreground and 6 accents, with hyperlink and followed hyperlink not offered) issa: you meant palettes should be in rows or unordered? mirek2: (unless I'm mistaken, palettes are simply a list of colors) mirek2: they're an ordered list, but not a categorized list issa: I don't think there's such a thing implemented mirek2: the colors are ordered as a sequence, not as a grid mirek2: I'm thinking we'll probably use an existing palette file, not invent our own mirek2: so that people can use their GIMP/Inkscape palettes in LibreOffice issa: I don't think MS Office has palettes, does it? mirek2: I don't know mirek2: but GIMP and Inkscape do mirek2:  I haven't checked out the file, though mirek2: perhaps GIMP palettes are organized into grids mirek2: hm, it seems like .gpl files really do have a "columns" setting mirek2: the pop-over should have a maximum column number mirek2: and it should have a fixed width, so tiles would either be bigger or smaller issa: you want the tiles to be dynamic? mirek2: no, but I can imagine palettes having different tile sizes mirek2: alternatively, palettes could have the same tile size mirek2: and just a lot of white space at the sides mirek2: (e.g. if a palette specified 4 columns) mirek2: or LibreOffice could ignore the column setting issa: yes I think that would be the most logical use issa: after all I'd that most palettes will be created by us mirek2:  I would only include a single "Standard" palette by default and a Document colors palette issa: why not have fun with them? mirek2: because I don't want to add extra cruft mirek2: simple tends to be better issa: also I'd like to have a Reds/Greens/Blues palettes for a larger standard palette mirek2: and it's not like the picker is aimed at designers mirek2: so I don't see the point for a Reds/Greens/Blues palette mirek2: (if it was aimed at designers, custom colors would be more accessible) issa: well we don't have the color hexagon MS Office has mirek2: the primary use-case I see for palettes is e.g. a palette with corporate colors issa: I'd like to have some way to choose colors digitally from a large array issa: corporate colors should be themes :P mirek2: in most cases, yes mirek2: but you could have a complementary set of corporate colors for illustrations mirek2: a set that includes all the colors of the rainbow to complement your corporate color theme issa: how can I view palettes in GIMP? mirek2: they're a panel mirek2: "Window" > Panels ? > Palettes mirek2: (my OS is not in English, not sure what the menu names actually are) issa: ok thank you, I was look somewhere else issa: they are 16x16 mirek2: you mean the tile size? issa: no, the grid size mirek2: depends on the palette mirek2: you can set the number of columns at the bottom of the panel issa: but that's the default I guess mirek2: I suppose so issa:  so now which is better keeping the colors as columns or not? mirek2: I would adhere to the column number set in the palette if it was below 10 issa: so that means keeping the colors in columns, no? mirek2:  yes issa: http://i.imgur.com/HAcnV1C.png mirek2: all palettes should be in the same section mirek2: except for that, seems acceptable mirek2: still not completely happy with the way the picker is presented, but that's ok issa:  even document colors? mirek2: document colors should probably be separate mirek2: given that they're stored in the document and vary from doc to doc issa: ok one more question mirek2: go ahead issa: do you think it would be a good idea for the color picker to have something similar to MS Office color hexagon? mirek2: I've never liked the hexagon issa: hehe I loved it issa:  (mind you as a kid I used Power Point for everything but it's intended purpose) mirek2: :) mirek2:  I don't think PowerPoint works well even for its intended purpose issa:  I also would always pick digital over analog issa:  it gives you enough tools to work with mirek2:  oh, sure mirek2:  that was badly phrased mirek2:  I mean, PowerPoint is designed as a multi-purpose tool mirek2:  just as good at pumping out presentations as for crafting a simple game mirek2:  some people use Keynote for mockups mirek2:  and if you used PowerPoint as it encourages you to use it, you would have a lot of slides with bullet points, animations, ClipArt, WordArt, all of which I would say actually take away from a presentation issa:  word art I'd agree issa:  animations can be nice when subtle (fading, etc) issa:  bullet points are the essence of most presentations mirek2:  here's a good presentation on presentations: http://www.slideshare.net/HubSpot/what-would-steve-do-10-lessons-from-the-worlds-most-captivating-presenters issa: clip art are like stock images, terrible standards mirek2: exactly mirek2: from the presentation: "tip 7: Ditch the bullet points. Permanently." issa: you aren't always marketing things mirek2: this is about presenting, not about marketing mirek2: presentations should supplement your talk mirek2: they shouldn't duplicate what you're talking about issa: not when you are in a business meeting and you are showing boring data and numbers mirek2: and even when the presentation is the content, you can easily do without bullet points mirek2: just look at the presentation -- it doesn't use bullets mirek2: issa: if you're showing data, you should use graphs issa: it doesn't suit all sorts of data mirek2: example? issa: I don't know, random unrelated numbers mirek2: why would you use bullet points for those? mirek2: if they're unrelated, you should probably use a slide for each one mirek2: anyway... :) any other topics? issa:  they are related but can't exist in the same graph issa:  anyway most presentations I've made were about things I didn't believe in/care about :P mirek2:  I understand issa:  I have icons to show mirek2:  I know I made a ton of presentations for school which I basically read off the screen issa:  https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Flat_icon_set#Snapshots issa:  check Impress mirek2:  looking good mirek2:  I'm not sold on the look of the presentation mirek2:  the spacing seems uneven mirek2:  the roundness as well issa:  inside the presentation icon itself? mirek2:  I'm talking about the slide issa:  yes mirek2:  I'd probably prefer it if the rectangles weren't round at all mirek2:  given that the boxes inside a slide aren't round either mirek2:  and if the spacing between them was 1 or 2 px issa:  sure mirek2:  it'd be good to try the icons out, though mirek2: do you have commit access? mirek2: perhaps you could put the icons into unstable builds, just like with Tango testing mirek2: also, what's the progress on shapes? issa: I'm trying them myself on my machine issa: I'm hoping to add them just as the shapes finish to have a complete look for Writer, Calc and Impress issa: the shapes are supposedly progressing but I have not seen the latest update yet mirek2: ok issa:  I told Norah about the meeting today she probably couldn't make it mirek2:  alright mirek2: btw, I'm now a co-mentor of the "Improved toolbars" GSoC project issa: Goran wrote a script and a blog post explaining how to use the iconset http://blog.goranrakic.com/archives/2013/05/try_the_new_flat_icon_set_for_libreoffice.html mirek2: I'll announce it on the design list soon issa: did any student pick that? mirek2: yup issa: oh that's great mirek2: Prashant Pandey issa: I was planning on working on it in the upcoming hackfest! mirek2: on what exactly? mirek2: there's still plenty of tasks to choose from issa: the hidden item menu in particular, since kendy will be there mirek2: if you'd like to work on a specific thing, just say so mirek2:  Kendy gave him the task of allowing to set a different icon size per toolbar, inspired by http://spiceofdesign.deviantart.com/art/Writer-Concept-351501580 mirek2: the idea is to possibly have some toolbars use the symbolic set and some use the Tango set issa: yeah that seemed pretty weird to be honest issa: that concept does make sense though mirek2: yeah, I agree (with both) issa: although honestly I'm hoping for a one toolbar future issa: I think it can be achievable with the hidden item menu mirek2: yeah, I'm hoping for that, too mirek2: Kendy wasn't keen on that idea, though mirek2: at least that's what it seemed like to me issa:  any specific reason? mirek2: I think he's just used to the current toolbar layout issa: in anyway I think it needs a lot of work, and study mirek2: definitely issa: I mean while working on the icons I see a lot of weird choices mirek2: such as? issa: https://raw.github.com/libodesign/flat-icons/master/sw_small2.png issa: this is part of the toolbar that appears when selecting autoshapes mirek2: ok... issa: you have bring to front and bring to back (instead of the whole alignment selector button) issa: you also have the rightmost group and ungroup mirek2: hm, the symbolism isn't clear there, imho issa: which one in particular? mirek2: the group/ungroup issa: I picked these straight from Inkscape issa: they aren't perfect but I don't think I can think of better ones mirek2: ok issa:  also you'd usually choose these from a menu rather than an icon mirek2: I know issa: actually I would like to go over the new icons one by one if that's ok mirek2:  I'd prefer to do that when I can use them mirek2: they're much harder to judge without that context mirek2: also, I'd prefer it if there were more people issa: the thing is I don't want to commit things without discussing them first issa: because once comitted you would like to minimize changes issa: you could try the script I linked http://blog.goranrakic.com/archives/2013/05/try_the_new_flat_icon_set_for_libreoffice.html mirek2: the Tango testing icons aren't unchangeable mirek2: and they were committed nevertheless, although just for unstable builds issa: I know, but how we tackled most of the icons so far issa: *that's how we mirek2:  well, I'd still prefer if there were more people mirek2: I don't want the design to be based on how I'm feeling mirek2: especially since that has a habit of changing issa: maybe in next week's meeting then mirek2: ok, sounds good issa: technically we are discussing them in a meeting :P mirek2: perhaps we'll have the shape icons by then too mirek2: issa: sure, but I wouldn't say I't have a good eye for these things mirek2: - 't mirek2:  I guess we're done for today? issa: I think mirek2: do you want to post the log or should I? issa:  just a minute issa: shall I edit the color picker tentative design? issa: (upload mine instead of the current) mirek2: sure, go ahead :) issa:  ok great issa:  you can post the log if you'd like mirek2:  don't add it to the blueprints just yet, though issa:  yeah I know mirek2:  it'd be good to have more people take a look at it mirek2:  ok, I'll put it up issa:  I agree mirek2:  alright mirek2:  bye then issa:  bye :)