Design/Meetings/2014-05-25

Attendees

 * astron
 * LLyaudet
 * mahfiaz
 * mirek

Topics

 * Sifr (repository GitHub vs. freedesktop or both, high-ppi version, etc.)
 * Design team organization (positions : visual design lead, user testing lead, UI design lead, projects leads, IRC chat moderator)
 * bug 78662 (start menu entries, libo start center entries, help menu entries)

Log
[13:57] hi guys [13:58] hi there [14:00] I'm in the middle of finals, so I still won't be very involved in the next few weeks, but I will hopefully have time afterwards [14:00]  hi mirek [14:00] I'd like to get the team organized a bit more [14:01] would be good to have some official positions and some official decision makers [14:01] (I think the democracy we have leads to bikeshedding and blurs the line between actual UX bugs and personal thoughts/ideas) [14:02] I'll post about that to the list when I have time [14:02] ok [14:02] so, what's new? [14:03] astron, any news from ESC calls? have you attended? [14:03]  sorry but what does bikeshedding means (not literraly) ? [14:04] LLyaudet: discussing about details instead of working [14:04] more or less [14:04]  thank you :) [14:04] LLyaudet: http://bikeshed.com/ [14:05] :) didn't know about that website [14:05] astron: any news? [14:06] right,... [14:06] ive attended a few, this week i completely forgot. [14:06] so, feature freeze for 4.3 was monday [14:07] (not esc-related but maybe good to know) [14:07] then,... [14:07] * weve discussed sifr a bit [14:07] ok [14:08] it would be great to have a high-ppi version of sifr etc. [14:08] so, there is a need to get all of the icons in the same place. [14:08] isn't that just a matter of exporting at a higher resolution? [14:09] hence, my mail on the ml [14:09] ok [14:09] right [14:09] it's high on my priority list [14:09] no one has answered to that so far ... not sure why [14:10] so, I still need to finish sorting the icons [14:10] (unfortunately) [14:11] hopefully, it won't take too long, as I think I'm most of the way there [14:11] mirek2: is this for the tango icons or sifr? [14:11] then the Sifr icon set can be rebased [14:11] it's for tango icons, but the same sheets should be used for both [14:12] ok, can you publish some kind of short status report/timeline on the ml? [14:12] can I post it once I'm done with finals? [14:13] I really can't guess at the timeline right now [14:13] soem status? [14:13] and I will need to coordinate with Ahmad and Reda for the Sifr icons [14:14] btw, reda is not a kacst student, right? [14:14] the status is whatever is on github [14:14] astron: afaik, no [14:14] he got in contact through Google+ [14:14] ok [14:15] as to moving to freedesktop.org, I'm not sure of the advantages [14:15] we'd still need a separate repo [14:15] why? [14:16] given that some of us use SparkleShare, which is very liberal with the number of commits it produces, I would think using the same repo would clutter up commit messages [14:17] (correct me if I'm wrong) [14:17] it's also nice to be able to handle access rights independently [14:18] and previews can come in handy [14:18] right [14:19] but the other issue is licensing & aligning with libo releases [14:19] explain, please :) [14:19] isn't GitHub better for that as well, given that we're using CC-by-sa for graphics? [14:20] (whereas LibO code is MPL licensed) [14:20] licensing -- normally, people are on file in the ml & on the wiki. since sifr is neither really inside of libo nor outside of it, i am not sure of the situation [14:21] aligning with releases -- someone would regularly have to copy the icos from github => fdo for every release [14:22] well, the icons will probably only be exported when one intends to push them to fdo [14:23] if we had a separate repo on fdo, would things be different? [14:24] right. [14:24] and if we used the same repo, would there be a way not to clutter up commit messages with SparkleShare pushes? [14:24] i guess not. [14:25] I think github is probably still the best option, then? [14:26] ok, i think the bottom line is that need some sort of build process (e.g. just a bash script that exports everything and then tars it) for repeatability/ [14:26] unless we don't use SparkleShare, but that would make the experience a lot less comfortable for me [14:26] sounds good [14:26] and maybe we should try to make sifr a proper external dependency? [14:27] (e.g. not directly in the source tree but rather tgz on dev-www.l.o) [14:27] ok, sounds good [14:27] not sure if that will sound as good to developers [14:28] it's worth a try [14:29] ok. [14:29] are we sure that we have all the icons in github, btw [14:29] ? [14:30] all the Sifr icons [14:30] ? [14:30] yes [14:30] no, at least I don't think so [14:30] I'll ask Ahmad where they all are [14:30] ok. [14:30] (I think at one point they just sent packages through e-mail -- yikes) [14:31] riiight. [14:32] I'll get on the icons once I have free time [14:32] actually, i cc'd my mail to the design list to ahmed etc. [14:33] I'll talk to him [14:33] ok, great. thanks [14:33] anything else from the ESC? [14:35] * you may have seen björns bug about start menu links to various libreoffice related websites [14:36] no [14:36] we discussed that a bit... [14:36] (its also ccd on ux-adv) [14:36] ok [14:37] not really sure about this, because björn wants to get away from people being "consumers" of libreoffice to people joining qa etc. [14:37] hold on -- do you mean the help menu entries? [14:38] not sure if links to all pages from the known libo universe are the best way to do this [14:38] well, there were several things discussed: [14:38] + start menu entries (only really applicable on windows 7 or below) [14:39] + libo start center entries [14:39] + help menu entries (björn found those too subtle) [14:41] just the "new features" and "recent fixes" entries, or are there more? [14:42] if you mean #79195, thats not it [14:42] it is https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=78662 [14:44] thanks for the link [14:44] I basically agree with what you said [14:48] undecided on the start screen page [14:49] anything else? [14:50] those should be the major things, but i am not sure. [14:50] (or at least the most discussed things) [14:51] oh, also i did not do anything regarding robinsons report from spinachcon (which is not so great of me) [14:51] ok [14:54] I need to get in contact with Nickkolas, get some testing going [14:54] nickkolas? [14:54] the person from FOSDEM [14:54] ok [14:54] Nicolas Goyer, to be precise [14:55] in the meantime, if we don't have any pressing topics (?), I'd like to talk about how to get the design team going again [14:56] as I mentioned, I'd really like to have some official team positions [14:57] right now, I'm thinking it'd be good to have: [14:57] * a visual design lead [14:57] * user testing lead [14:58] * UI design lead [14:58] not sure this is going to work [14:59] because of lack of people? [14:59] (who generally have a lack of time) [14:59] or some other concern? [15:00] yes, and those people would have to act like what they are supposed to be [15:00] what do you mean? [15:01] experience & the ability to defend good decisions... [15:03] I'm thinking these positions would be voted on, say, annually (does that sound good?), so bad decision makers should be weeded out [15:04]  I have one fear [15:04] in any case, what alternative is there? [15:04] yes? [15:04] phew... who is voting? [15:04]  who will have the time to really be a lead ? [15:05] I'd suggest any member of the LibreOffice community (again, how does that sound?) [15:05]  maybe we'll end up with only one posssibility [15:05] that's a valid concern [15:05]  and bad decision makers will not be weeded out [15:05] I think it'd be good to have nobody as a possible choice [15:06] in which case the community would democratically fill the role [15:06] (as it has been doing up till now) [15:07] also, people could only nominate themselves for the position, so it might turn out that there's nobody who wants to fill the role [15:07] LLyaudet: would having "nobody" as a possible choice alleviate your concerns? [15:08] btw, this would all be just within the scope of the design team [15:08]  partly I'm mainly embarrassed with the lack of time I (at least) can spend on LO [15:08] me too :) [15:09]  however if positions could motivate some people who have more time it may be a good opportunity [15:09] but I'm thinking there's a lot of time being wasted because jobs are not designated properly [15:09] I agree [15:10] i am not sure if it is really because of positions, really [15:10] time being wasted? no, it's not just because of positions, but positions are a good first step toward a remedy, no? [15:11]  I agree Mirek [15:11] btw, any other suggestions are appreciated [15:12] it would also be good to have an IRC chat moderator [15:12]  It's easier with a position to say to the ML "We'll try to organize the work for the next months in this direction..." [15:13] wouldnt it be better to just let individual people take care of projects? [15:13] what projects? [15:13]  we can vote on a per project basis in that case [15:14] there can still be project leads, separate from the main leads [15:14] project ~ whiteboard [15:14] it's a good idea to have project leads [15:14] however, I think we need the leads I mentioned as well [15:16] if you look at mailing list and bug discussions, it'd be good to have a go-to person for each issue [15:16] hm... [15:17] and, in general, it's good to have a designated decision maker for a final say [15:17]  not necessarily [15:17]  the final say may be a vote [15:18] it may be [15:18]  but aleast someone must organize and structure the debate if any [15:18]  *at least [15:18] the developers are still free not to listen to the designer [15:19] LLyaudet: definitely [15:20] the lead should be responsible for allowing a discussion to take place before a big decision, for having the final say if it seems impossible to reach a consensus, and for backing up that final say [15:21] <LLyaudet> I agree [15:21] astron: your thoughts? [15:22] none [15:22] ok [15:22] I'll post to the ML about this later, then, and we'll see how it goes :) [15:23] LLyaudet, mahfiaz_ : since you both attend the IRC chat relatively frequently, would either of you like to be the IRC chat moderator? [15:23] im really just not sure about all the continued voting about who will be voting. [15:24] it would be an annual vote, and the leads won't be voting [15:25] <LLyaudet> I would be glad to help by being the IRC chat moderator however I'm not fast with english so I don't know if I'm the best candidate [15:26] well, I imagine the job to involve: [15:26] <LLyaudet> and so far I don't really what I would have to do [15:26] <LLyaudet> *really see [15:26] * sending an e-mail to the design ML announcing the chat and asking for topics that should be discussed [15:27] (you can use some of mine as a template, though do note that they've been written hastily and sometimes don't ask for topics) [15:28] I'm thinking it'd be good, from now on, to lay out what we want to get done and discussed in the chat before the chat starts [15:28] so, if we agree to do that, the job would involve: [15:30] <LLyaudet> I agree [15:30] * gathering a list of things that the IRC chat should accomplish [15:31] * trying to keep the discussion focused on those topics [15:31] * and, finally, uploading the log to the wiki [15:31] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings [15:31] <LLyaudet> ok [15:31] would you be willing to do that? [15:32] <LLyaudet> yes [15:32] great :) [15:33] <LLyaudet> I'll send a mail one week before each meeting asking for topics to be discussed to the next chat [15:33] yup, sounds good [15:34] also, please upload today's log (if you have all of it) [15:34] <LLyaudet> yes I'll do it :) [15:34] ok, thanks [15:35] any other thoughts on the design team structure, way of working, positions needed, etc. ? [15:36] hm, different topic: what is sophies Preparing 4.3.0 coordination mail about? [15:36] <LLyaudet> Should we formalize all this somewhere ? [15:37] the log is fine for now, I think [15:37] I hope to make a post to the mailing list soon [15:37] (probably not today, though) [15:38] about the team positions [15:38] astron: not sure; is the wiki page set up? [15:38] no idea [15:39] but the information in her mail is strangely unspecific [15:39] it is [15:39] I was hoping she'd post the link [15:40] your best bet is to just contact Sophie [15:41] hm. right [15:41] == mirek2_ [56311b91@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.49.27.145] has joined #libreoffice-design [15:42] <mirek2_> sorry guys, Firefox crashed for me [15:43] <mirek2_> if there are no other topics you'd like to discuss and no ideas as to how the team should work, let's end the chat [15:44] ok [15:44] bye then [15:44] <LLyaudet> ok see you all [15:44] <mirek2_> see you