Design/Meetings/2012-05-12


 * Date/Time: 2012-05-12, 1400 UTC (the time below is 2 hours ahead of UTC)
 * Location: IRC, channel #libreoffice-design

Attendees

 * AlexanderW
 * Android272
 * Astron
 * Mirek2

Log
[15:54] hi [15:58] == astron247 [~frootzowr@dslb-088-074-230-005.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #libreoffice-design [15:59] hi astron [15:59] hi [15:59] hi guest, who are you? [16:01] == android272 [4bb965d7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.185.101.215] has joined #libreoffice-design [16:01] Hiii [16:01] hello [16:02] alex, are you guest 4942? [16:02] hello [16:03] shall we begin? [16:03] i guess... [16:03] astron, you said you're limited on time [16:03] is there a topic you'd like to discuss? [16:03] ah, yes. [16:04] pick a topic we should begin with [16:04] so, maybe discuss tango for five minutes [16:04] alright [16:04] I've posted the reply I've received from Lapo [16:05] things look good on that front [16:05] one of the things that i find odd is that lapo is always named as the author of all the icons... but while he does a lot, he certainly hasnt created all the icons. [16:05] where? [16:05] the authors file from the icon pack lists all the authors [16:05] right [16:06] you can get this per-file from git (and for pre-2009 histroy svn) [16:06] anyway, the big picture is that: [16:06] http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-icon-theme/log/src [16:06] yeah, the latest icons have been authored mainly by lapo and jakub [16:07] before we can include some of the new icons, we need to make a list of the icons we'd replace [16:07] right [16:07] we should also look at our current set and determine which icons look bad [16:08] and perhaps ask Lapo to redesign them [16:08] as he offered [16:08] more importantly, a list of icons that we cant replace right now [16:08] eg zoom icons: the new set only has in/out/100%/fit width/fit page [16:09] for draw, however, we'd also need fit object etc. [16:09] I think that list would be a lot longer and a lot harder to make [16:09] also, I don't think we need to look at the uncommon ones [16:09] <@Guest4942> oh sorry [16:09] <@Guest4942> hi [16:09] hi [16:09] i mean icons that we could replace with the new tango stuff but shouldnt because it would become awfully inconsistent [16:09] hi [16:10] who are you, guest? [16:10] == Guest4942 has changed nick to alexanderWilms [16:10] ok :) [16:10] @astron: we could ask Lapo to redesign some icons to fit the set [16:10] or tweak some ourselves [16:11] (I'm sure some would require just minor tweaks) [16:11] right [16:11] its great that lapo offered that. [16:11] yes [16:11] ill see where i can fit the icon list in, if you dont mind [16:11] ok [16:11] (or would you rather take the helm) [16:11] ? [16:11] <@alexanderWilms> So do we need anyone else to relicense the icons? [16:11] I would prefer if you took the helm [16:12] okay [16:12] @alex: that depends on the icons we want [16:12] right, i believe at least wed need permission from jimmac for sure [16:12] also, in the Gnome pack, a down arrow is used as a symbol for adding items [16:12] I'd prefer not to use that [16:13] i dont know, but maybe wed even need permission from hylke [16:13] <@alexanderWilms> I'm sure there's also a icon that would fit our purpose [16:13] first we need a list of the icons we could replace [16:13] wait, what down arrow are you speaking about? [16:13] ẗhen we can find the authors [16:13] see https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Screenshot_from_2012-05-02_13-23-36.png [16:14] take a look at the insert image and insert object icons [16:14] okay. [16:14] i dont find them so bad [16:14] what would you propose? [16:14] they're not bad [16:14] <@alexanderWilms> There's at least one icon for 'images' without that arrow [16:14] but they'd be inconsistent with other insertion icons [16:15] if we got permission, we could modify the icons ourselves [16:15] remove the arrow [16:15] <@alexanderWilms> I agree that they all should either have an arrow or not [16:15] i believe that we can agree to that yes. [16:15] how would you deal with drawing tools? [16:15] with an arrow, I mean? [16:15] add an arrow to them, yes [16:16] although your insert sidebar might make that superfluous [16:16] even to the many, many shapes in the shape picker? [16:16] if it's ever implemented... [16:17] shape picker... is that part of your proposal? [16:17] or the implemented picker for shapes? [16:17] no, the shape picker that we have now [16:17] or shape pickers [16:17] okay [16:17] the ones with smiley faces and arrows and stars and such [16:17] in any case, feel free to lead the project [16:18] long-term, these should become previews imo [16:18] <@alexanderWilms> Would we still have different buttons in the bar for each category of drawing? [16:18] what do you mean? [16:18] both astron and alex? [16:18] -? [16:18] okay... ill start [16:18] <@alexanderWilms> eg. Arrows, Speech bubbles etc [16:19] <@alexanderWilms> go ahead [16:19] okay [16:20] yes? [16:20] right now we have icons for every shape that is there, which isnt useful, because if you ever wanted to add a shape youd need to create a new icon. thus, the (inofficial) proposal to use somewhat larger, automatically generated "previews" of shapes [16:20] <@alexanderWilms> like in word? [16:20] probably... [16:21] <@alexanderWilms> I like that [16:21] ok [16:21] though I myself would prefer to integrate several shapes into one tool [16:22] like the star/polygon tool in Inkscape [16:22] hm, no, word still seems to use icons: http://www.techtipsgeek.com/make-flowchart-word-2007/1352/ [16:22] I like Word's implementation though [16:22] <@alexanderWilms> Ah, I meant the way they display styles [16:22] I'm not sure how large previews would fit into the uI [16:23] in any case, this is for developers to solve in the future [16:23] you could just scale them based upon the screen size [16:23] well, the previews would be in a popup [16:23] <@alexanderWilms> yes [16:24] hm... I'd need to see it [16:24] (not directly in the toolbar. but i havent made a mockup of it either) [16:24] in any case, let's focus on the current stuff [16:24] okay [16:24] is the icon topic closed? [16:25] <@alexanderWilms> What#s the next step regarding icons? [16:25] astron should work on a list of icons we could replace along with a list of icons we could replace them with [16:25] okay. then ill write lapo, i guess... [16:25] <@alexanderWilms> thanks [16:26] ok. good [16:26] then we need another list of icons that would need to be tweaked to fit the new icon pack [16:26] and then we could send that to Lapo [16:26] sound good? [16:26] yup [16:26] <@alexanderWilms> yes [16:26] alright [16:26] next topic [16:27] astron, would you care to pick a GSoC whiteboard? [16:27] didnt you talk about some icons we can not implement? [16:27] <@alexanderWilms> I think he meant icons that are currently not in the gnome icon theme that we would need [16:27] that's solved by the list of icons we would need to tweak if we adopted the new icons [16:27] uhm... on to templates? [16:28] <@alexanderWilms> alright [16:28] <@alexanderWilms> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Call_for_Templates [16:28] template dialog or call for templates? [16:28] the latter is not as imminent [16:28] im going to work on some database templates :) [16:29] we NEED them bad [16:29] <@alexanderWilms> good [16:29] @android: I don't think that's possible, though [16:29] other wise its kinda hard to create your own database from scratch [16:29] afaik, Base doesn't support templates [16:29] or template files [16:29] <@alexanderWilms> I've never used that so I got no clue whether/how that would work [16:29] really ... access has templates [16:29] ? [16:30] isnt a template nothing more then a file that is made to be modified? [16:30] <@alexanderWilms> An odf template seems to be the same as a normal document wit a different file extension [16:30] <@alexanderWilms> *with [16:30] basically yes, but usually it is handled a bit differently by the software and has a different exstension [16:30] yes, exactly [16:30] -s [16:31] @astron: if that was a question then yes access has templates. [16:31] okay, thanks! [16:31] well then once the make it so that base has timplates the we will has some :) [16:32] alright [16:32] <@alexanderWilms> I want to use a texture from lostandtaken.com [16:32] not a priority right now, though [16:32] <@alexanderWilms> these are ther terms of use: Lost & Taken textures are made freely available for use in both personal and commercial projects including web templates, designs, and other materials intended for distribution. Attribution is appreciated, but not required. [16:32] sound good [16:32] <@alexanderWilms> They didn't give a certain license, though [16:32] @alex: for what? [16:32] <@alexanderWilms> Do we need a statement from them that it's cc0? [16:33] it'd be helpful, yes [16:33] <@alexanderWilms> @android: For use in te,plates [16:33] actually who came up with cc0? [16:33] michael [16:33] ok [16:33] well then [16:33] and why? [16:33] it's because we need to guarantee that people can use our templates for any purpose [16:34] even in commercial presentations [16:34] it makes since, why give people timplates they are not allowed to use modifie or make money off of [16:34] right [16:34] @alex: you should ask for the license [16:34] and mpl/lgpl are source code licenses, not licenses for creative works, i guess? [16:34] use both the contact form and the "Ask me anything" form [16:34] @astron: yes, basically [16:35] @ alex: if they say something about public domain, it should be fine [16:35] and those still require attribution [16:35] <@alexanderWilms> I already asked them on Deviantart and via their contact form today [16:35] <@alexanderWilms> nswerI hope I get an as [16:35] good [16:35] you just have to wait for a response [16:35] in any case, the GSoC projects really are a priority right now [16:35] have you talked to the ubuntu community guys any further? [16:35] let's discuss those [16:36] (alex?) [16:36] <@alexanderWilms> Well, I uploaded one template to that bzr repo, but there wasn't any other activity [16:36] <@alexanderWilms> tbh, I prefer submitting them directly to LO [16:37] you'll be able to [16:37] okay, sure, but they had this contest idea [16:37] isn't it better to just include it with LibO? [16:38] <@alexanderWilms> I can ask them whether there is some progress [16:38] Alex, Michael sent you an invitation to commit access on freedesktop [16:38] <@alexanderWilms> Yes, I now have commit access [16:38] good :) [16:38] awesome! [16:38] <@alexanderWilms> :) [16:38] you should just tell the Ubuntu guys what's going on [16:38] what have you done with it so far? [16:38] <@alexanderWilms> I'll [16:38] <@alexanderWilms> do [16:39] <@alexanderWilms> I'm not too experienced, though [16:39] <@alexanderWilms> I've worked a bit with bazaar, but I'm not too sure where to put the files [16:39] go to Michael with any questions [16:39] okay... best to ask andras or michael probably [16:39] in any case, can we look at the GSoC whiteboards? [16:39] right [16:39] we have a little more than a week left [16:39] <@alexanderWilms> I did, ok lets go on [16:39] templates? [16:40] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Templates_and_documents_rework [16:40] <@alexanderWilms> picker, you mean? [16:40] yes [16:40] let's start picking through the open problems [16:40] Closing the folder overlay [16:40] I'm in favor of using a close button [16:41] and clicking outside the overlay [16:41] both of those [16:41] <@alexanderWilms> agree [16:41] yup [16:41] andrew? [16:41] do you agree? [16:42] wait ... folder overlay, what exactly is that? [16:42] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:T-fold.png [16:42] clicking away would be most appropriate for this scenario: [16:42] agree [16:42] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/archive/c/c1/20120510065933!T-fold.png [16:42] alright [16:42] Moving files from the folder overlay [16:43] <@alexanderWilms> Moving files from the folder overlay [16:43] I prefer the "to the toolbar" solution [16:43] <@alexanderWilms> This isn't very common on the desktop, is it? [16:43] though I'm not exactly sure what to call the superior folder [16:43] is this a dialog or the whole screen like the startup menu with all the different programs? [16:44] huh? [16:44] wait, can we stay on the folder overlay for a second..? [16:44] <@alexanderWilms> it is something like a modal dialog [16:44] @alex: Android does something similar when dragging icons [16:44] @astron: sure [16:44] is it a pop up dialog or the entire screen? [16:44] <@alexanderWilms> pop up [16:44] popup that covers most of the screen [16:44] okay, is it possible to have subfolders in a folder? [16:44] no [16:45] that's one of the reasons why it appears as a popup [16:45] so then what if the user clicks out of the dialog would the folder close? [16:45] yes [16:45] unless we choose to close the folder only by clicking the "X" icon [16:45] would the folder overlay be a real window? [16:45] would the dialog stay or would it disappear like some do annoyingly? [16:45] (ie window manager window?) [16:46] it would be an overlay [16:46] think Android dialogs [16:46] what does that mean? [16:46] mirek [16:46] or drop-down menus [16:46] but with a much bigger area [16:46] oh ok got ya [16:46] <@alexanderWilms> Maybe like this, but bigger: http://gnomeshell.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/modal-attached-window.png?w=540 [16:47] <@alexanderWilms> and not hiding the toolbar [16:47] ok so then you can not do anything until that is closed? [16:47] @alex: that's actually a modal window that doesnt close when clickng on its parent [16:47] +i [16:47] yeah, this dialog would close when clicking on the parent [16:47] but not when clicking on the toolbar [16:47] or above [16:47] <@alexanderWilms> alright [16:48] so we're all clear on this? [16:48] can you produce a realistic gtk+/windows/macOS looking mockup of this? [16:48] id love to see this in the flesh [16:49] <@alexanderWilms> Mirek? [16:49] if you mean the whole thing (not just the overlay), then sure, but on Thursday at best [16:49] though I'm not exactly sure what VCL's limitations are... [16:49] those might be a bit dampening [16:49] the folder overlay would look the same as in the mockup, though [16:49] @astron: wont we do that in the Shaping Tentative Design stage? [16:49] right, but a real desktop look would be good. [16:49] @andrew: yes [16:50] probably. [16:50] <@alexanderWilms> Would we have widescreen templates by default? [16:50] we should [16:50] ok so all that was not clear to me, what kind of dialog is it. [16:50] projectors are usually still 4:3 [16:50] the folder overlay is an overlay, not a dialog [16:51] it stays within the window, cannot be moved [16:51] can be closed by clicking on the parent or clicking the "X" button [16:51] whats the parent? [16:51] @alex: we should have both 4:3 and widescreen templates [16:51] @android: the thing above [16:51] <@alexanderWilms> Ok [16:52] wait the folder? [16:52] in the hierarchy [16:52] yes [16:52] or the dialog [16:52] oik [16:52] the dialogue [16:52] can we move on to moving files from the folder overlay? [16:52] ? [16:52] sorry [16:53] @android: basically, if you click out of the overlay inside the area below the toolbar, the overlay will close [16:53] can we move on to moving files from the folder overlay? [16:53] sure [16:53] ok [16:53] yes [16:53] I'm in favor of dragging to the toolbar [16:54] Android does something similar with homescreen icons [16:54] dragging what? do you mean from the app menu in android? [16:55] from the homescreen in Android [16:55] to where? [16:56] sorry I got it. [16:56] alright [16:56] see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvYf1DQOgF0 for clarification [16:57] where do i have to go in the video (minute?) [16:58] I had it a minute ago, now I can't find it [16:58] <@alexanderWilms> I now afk for some minutes, will be back very soon [16:58] okay. [16:58] anyway, how about a dedicated "save to disk" button? [16:59] 4:09 [16:59] okay [16:59] so how he deletes the clock [16:59] the remove button [16:59] yes [17:00] @astron: we discussed this last meeting and came to the conclusion that online templates would appear in separate folders [17:00] oh so just moving apps on the home screen [17:00] yes [17:00] sure but sometimes youd want to have an online template offline too, right? [17:00] but if we used the toolbar to move templates, a "Download to Home" button would replace the "Move Back Home" button [17:01] whats that for, actually? [17:01] I wasn't sure what to call the parent folder [17:01] okay [17:01] maybe "Move to Parent Folder" would be best? [17:01] Move up? [17:01] "Move to Superior Folder"? [17:02] but it uses the down arrow... [17:02] and the overlay is visually above the parent folder [17:02] well, using an up arrow shouldnt be a problem [17:02] ok, I guess we could have "Move Up" [17:03] good. [17:03] so "Download" would replace "Move Up" for online templates [17:03] ~dunno [17:03] yes [17:04] @astron: do you not think that would be a good idea? [17:04] would one more icon fit? [17:04] but one can't move or reorder online templates [17:04] as the list is managed online and continually changes [17:05] ouch [17:05] I believe it's best to keep online templates separate from offline templates [17:05] my misunderstanding. [17:05] why would move to the parent folder to only not be able to use it because you did not download it? [17:05] youre right then [17:05] alright [17:05] ill go off now... se you [17:05] + [17:05] e [17:05] ok, have fun [17:06] thanks a bunch [17:06] :) see you [17:06] == astron247 [~frootzowr@dslb-088-074-230-005.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #libreoffice-design [] [17:06] should we wait for alex? [17:07] is he still gone? [17:07] it seems so [17:07] let's wait for Alex [17:07] ok [17:07] at least I can have a snack before he comes back :) [17:07] :) [17:08] <@alexanderWilms> yeah,it'll take maybe half an hour? [17:09] <@alexanderWilms> We have some visitors [17:09] alright [17:09] should we expect you in half an hour then? [17:09] ok [17:09] <@alexanderWilms> yes [17:09] ok, let's take a break until 15:50 GMT [17:10] I meant 15:40 [17:10] ok [17:40] <@alexanderWilms> I'm back [17:40] me too [17:40] so... [17:41] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Templates_and_documents_rework#Moving_files_from_the_folder_overlay [17:41] what do you think? [17:41] which option is best? [17:41] IMHO, we should have both [17:42] except now we don't have to leave space at the bottom of the overlay [17:42] I mean, below the overlay [17:42] <@alexanderWilms> ? [17:42] <@alexanderWilms> Where else? [17:43] what do you mean? [17:43] <@alexanderWilms> you said that we don't need the space at the bottom [17:43] In "https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:T-drag.png", "Move back home" (which should be renamed "Move up") should do the same as dragging a thumbnail outside of the overlay [17:44] so we don't need the space at the bottom [17:44] if we go with showing the toolbar buttons when dragging a template [17:44] <@alexanderWilms> but the overlay must still be smaller than the parent window [17:44] only slightly [17:45] as in the mockup [17:45] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:T-drag.png [17:46] thoughts? comments? [17:46] <@alexanderWilms> could one click on 'Move up'? [17:46] no, it would only appear when dragging [17:46] <@alexanderWilms> simply selecting some templates and clicking that [17:47] Selecting some templates should give more options [17:47] <@alexanderWilms> Why not show it permanently (greyed out when no template is selected) [17:47] Because there are other items in the toolbar [17:47] sorry was not watching the time [17:47] I'd also discourage against using grayed-out buttons [17:48] <@alexanderWilms> alright, but allow both [17:48] A proposal for a selected item's toolbar: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:T-check.png [17:48] <@alexanderWilms> clicking the button and dragging templates onto the button [17:49] "Edit" and "Properties" don't make sense on the toolbar for dragging [17:49] but yes, there will also be buttons to click [17:50] So both solutions, then? [17:50] <@alexanderWilms> yes [17:50] <@alexanderWilms> isn't there some sort of secondary click on touch devices? [17:50] nope [17:50] <@alexanderWilms> So that we could put edit and properties in there [17:50] <@alexanderWilms> hm [17:51] just long-tap to select [17:51] ok I like both but if there is no space blow or any where else I don't know how people are going to know you can do that. [17:51] @andrew: they don't need to, the toolbar will suffice [17:52] can we move on to "Navigation between pages inside the thumbnail"? [17:52] then why would we have both then? [17:53] @andrew: being able to drag it below makes sense when you have a small overlay (on a big screen or when you have few templates in a folder) [17:53] it's just a nicety [17:53] moving on? [17:53] ok just don't see it being used. [17:54] yes [17:54] Navigation between pages inside the thumbnail [17:54] personally, I would have to vote for none [17:55] I don't think many people check out the various pages a template has [17:55] <@alexanderWilms> The thumbnails are not the ones saved within the odf file? [17:55] what do you mean? [17:55] ? [17:55] does each template file have a thumbnail saved within? [17:55] <@alexanderWilms> if you unzip an odf file an look into the thumnails folder ther's only one picture [17:55] <@alexanderWilms> yes [17:56] alright, I guess that solves it, then [17:56] no page preview, then [17:56] ok [17:56] any other problems we need to solve to craft the tentative design? [17:57] ok [17:57] <@alexanderWilms> no [17:57] alright [17:57] no [17:57] should I work on the tentative design? [17:58] <@alexanderWilms> If you wish [17:58] <@alexanderWilms> well, theres one problem [17:58] yah [17:58] yeah? [17:59] <@alexanderWilms> That#s the thumb of my Writer template: http://ubuntuone.com/3axvvOAh9EatAgPovRCWrt [17:59] <@alexanderWilms> It only shows the first page [17:59] ok... [17:59] <@alexanderWilms> So it might not always be the most representative page [18:00] In the majority of cases, it is [18:00] <@alexanderWilms> ok [18:00] if it isn't, it can be replaced manually, no? [18:00] <@alexanderWilms> it could [18:00] ok, good [18:00] so I'll flesh out the tentative design [18:01] I'll get to work on it on Thursday [18:01] I have a huge exam on Wednesday.... [18:01] <@alexanderWilms> good luck [18:01] thanks :) [18:01] moving on to https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Impress_remote ? [18:02] <@alexanderWilms> yes [18:02] or maybe we should discuss https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/File_Manager first, as it's designed like the template dialog [18:03] I talked to peoples from my church about this. they said basically the same thing I said all last meeting. let the user choose what to do. [18:03] the remote [18:03] <@alexanderWilms> you mean having different layouts/modes? [18:04] this isn't really about user choice -- of course we'll try to cover as broad a feature set as we can [18:04] yes [18:04] it's basically about the UI [18:04] which we should strive to make as simple as possible [18:05] (take a look at the LibreOffice Options dialog, which gives a lot of choice, but isn't really usable for anyone) [18:05] well if we have all the different preferences then we can design them. but if we keep fighting about what to make then we will never design them. [18:05] but we shouldn't design all the different UIs [18:06] why not? [18:06] that would be a lot of unnecessary coding and would make the UI so much more complex [18:06] again, just look at our Options dialog [18:06] it offers tons of options [18:06] but it's really not to the user's benefit [18:06] could we look at https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/File_Manager first, though? [18:07] as that's very closely related to the template dialog [18:07] in UI [18:07] we'll come back to the remote soon, though, I promise [18:07] ok all we need is: just slides, just remote, just notes, slides with notes, current and next slides... anything else? [18:08] ok [18:08] alright, thanks [18:08] we can move on. [18:08] great, thanks [18:08] we haven't really done much to analyze all the problems [18:08] <@alexanderWilms> overlays do not exist on android? [18:09] modal dialogs on Android are identical to overlays [18:09] except that they don't use the toolbar [18:09] our overlay would use the toolbar [18:09] <@alexanderWilms> ah [18:10] on the desktop, clicking the title of a thumbnail selects a template [18:10] however, this isn't standard on Android and might cause some confusion [18:10] are you talking about the templates in the file mannager? [18:10] basically, we've agreed the file manager would work just like the template manager [18:10] <@alexanderWilms> yes [18:11] yes [18:11] and similarly to the desktop version [18:11] on the desktop version, clicking the title of a thumbnail selects a template [18:11] but on Android, tapping the title launches the document [18:11] and selection is done purely through long-tapping [18:12] <@alexanderWilms> ok [18:12] should we follow the Android HIG and be inconsistent with the desktop version? [18:12] or should we do the same as on the desktop and be inconsistent with Android? [18:12] ok well thats normal on android, why do we need everything to be the same? [18:12] consistency [18:13] <@alexanderWilms> I think consistency with the platform is more important [18:13] alright [18:13] another option is changing the template dialog's behavior [18:13] I say it should be as close to each other as we can but users will understand what to do because of what internment they are in. [18:13] there can be some minor changes [18:14] having a selection mode in the desktop version would make things more consistent [18:14] such as how to select them [18:14] alright [18:14] alex, your thoughts? [18:15] alex, are you there? [18:15] <@alexanderWilms> one moment [18:15] <@alexanderWilms> So we don't neccesarily need the selection like it is don in Gnome on the desktop? [18:16] <@alexanderWilms> "on the desktop version, clicking the title of a thumbnail selects a template" [18:16] even if the user is new to tablets they will quickly realize that, that is the way it is through out the tablet is different from the descktop. [18:17] true, but Android might become a desktop OS too and Gnome might become a tablet OS too [18:17] the borders between the two are blurring [18:18] <@alexanderWilms> We'd have both options to select a template, then? [18:18] which options? [18:18] well then what if you are on the tablet in desktop mode and then it would act like the desktop LibreOffice do you think that would be too confusing? [18:19] the problem isn't that there's no selection mode on the desktop [18:19] the problem is that tapping the title below a thumbnail on a desktop selects the document [18:19] whereas on a tablet, it launches the document [18:19] in any case, do we agree that on Android, tapping the title below the thumbnail should launch the document? [18:20] <@alexanderWilms> Wouldn't tapping the preview do the same? [18:20] tapping the preview would launch [18:20] ok hold on, what are we talking about being different, one thing at a time please. [18:20] tapping the title below on Android would also launch, on the desktop it would select [18:21] <@alexanderWilms> I see [18:21] on the desktop clicking the preview does what, and on the android it does what? as it is currently. [18:22] it always launches [18:22] no difference there [18:22] ok and the title [18:22] <@alexanderWilms> the difference would be between clicking/tapping the title [18:22] tapping the title below on Android would also launch, on the desktop it would select [18:22] I do not see the difference [18:22] @alex: distros can't tell the difference [18:22] tapping = clicking on desktop OS's [18:23] why not have the gnome select on both? [18:23] @android: tapping the title below on Android would launch, on the desktop it would select [18:23] @android: we've decided against selection mode last meeting [18:23] or have clicking/taping the title select on both [18:23] <@alexanderWilms> @mirek: I meant the difference between android and a desktop os [18:24] @alex: desktop OS's will increasingly run on tablets, too [18:24] and vise versa [18:24] <@alexanderWilms> i know [18:24] and the next Android version might be suitable for keyboards/mouse [18:25] my phone may be able to use mouse... not sure im looking into it because I think it would be funny [18:25] in any case, do we agree that the Android version should follow the standard Android behavior? [18:25] yes [18:25] <@alexanderWilms> yes [18:25] ok [18:25] then do we change the desktop [18:26] we might [18:26] I'll have to talk to the GSoC student first [18:26] who was against the selection mode at first [18:26] moving on [18:27] I have to go... im going to be a zombie soon... not sleepy going to be in a video soon :) [18:27] has anyone given thought to how the template "folder" should look? [18:27] @andrew: alright, good night [18:27] as in overly? [18:27] you too [18:27] <@alexanderWilms> good night [18:27] == android272 [4bb965d7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.185.101.215] has quit [Quit: Page closed] [18:28] <@alexanderWilms> you mean the icon? [18:28] either icon or alexanderWilms a folder-ish kind of visual with template previews [18:28] either is fine [18:28] <@alexanderWilms> I don't think we need previews [18:28] alright [18:29] <@alexanderWilms> I had an idea, I'll just sketch iut [18:32] right now, or in the course of the week? [18:32] <@alexanderWilms> right now [18:32] <@alexanderWilms> done [18:33] <@alexanderWilms> http://ubuntuone.com/4QAn6x0YOcMZgSfP6pPObe [18:33] <@alexanderWilms> It's a bit cliché, though [18:34] I prefer your other icon: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Alexander_Wilms [18:34] this one seems more like "Downloads" to me [18:34] remember that templates don't have to be online [18:34] some may be authored by the user [18:34] the icon looks nice, though [18:35] <@alexanderWilms> Now I get it [18:35] <@alexanderWilms> One has a folder 'Templates' in the document manager [18:35] <@alexanderWilms> ? [18:35] it's not really a folder [18:36] <@alexanderWilms> it opens the templates view [18:36] it doesn't launch an overlay [18:36] exactly [18:36] <@alexanderWilms> I'd remove the puzzle piece [18:36] <@alexanderWilms> would that Tango-ish look fit? [18:36] yeah, probably [18:37] the problem might be that a) LibreOffice uses a notebook metaphor for templates [18:37] b) the "T" would have to be replaced with something international [18:38] I'm not really sure the ruler makes much sense there either [18:38] <@alexanderWilms> It is rather generic [18:38] <@alexanderWilms> T for text [18:38] we decided to use "A" for text [18:38] as that's a glyph that's available in the Cyrillic and Greek alphabets as well as the Latin one [18:38] <@alexanderWilms> ok [18:39] <@alexanderWilms> Well, rulers are often used to symbolize templates [18:39] it's a minor issue, though, and it's solveable anytime [18:39] such as? [18:40] which template icon uses a ruler? [18:41] afaik, template icons usually adhere to the "notebook" metaphor [18:41] alright, I've found some icons with a ruler [18:41] nevermind :) [18:41] in any case, this isn't a major issue [18:41] <@alexanderWilms> the gnome ones [18:42] <@alexanderWilms> i think apple uses them too [18:42] <@alexanderWilms> Should I upload the tweaked svg to the wiki and mail you the link? [18:42] sure [18:43] any other issues we need to take care of in the file manager? [18:43] <@alexanderWilms> I'm not aware of any [18:44] alright [18:44] <@alexanderWilms> I think we're done [18:44] 2 more whiteboards to go [18:44] or do you have to go? [18:44] would you like to take care of making the tentative design for the file manager? [18:45] <@alexanderWilms> you mean the file viewer [18:45] and the impress remote [18:45] which we skipped [18:45] <@alexanderWilms> ah [18:45] <@alexanderWilms> forgot about that [18:45] <@alexanderWilms> Yeah, i can do so [18:45] ok [18:45] I can send you my Inkscape file [18:46] <@alexanderWilms> ok [18:46] I'll do so later today [18:46] if that's ok [18:46] <@alexanderWilms> sure [18:46] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/File_Viewer [18:47] still needs some design [18:47] slide shows should probably work like on the desktop [18:47] <@alexanderWilms> yes [18:47] <@alexanderWilms> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:V-bar.png [18:47] sheets should probably be shown as tabs [18:47] <@alexanderWilms> That doesn't really look native [18:48] hold on [18:48] <@alexanderWilms> or is it possible to have such party hidden toolbars [18:48] <@alexanderWilms> *partly [18:49] I'm not sure, actually [18:50] <@alexanderWilms> I think it'd be good if we only used completely native widgets [18:50] I agree [18:52] I need to look at lights-out toolbars again [18:52] <@alexanderWilms> ? isn't that just another theme? [18:52] <@alexanderWilms> holo dark? [18:52] nope [18:53] lights-out mode is when the toolbar disappears unless you click on the screen [18:53] and the system buttons turn into dots [18:53] Google Books uses it [18:53] <@alexanderWilms> ah [18:54] <@alexanderWilms> So one can implement both modes for he same application? [18:54] <@alexanderWilms> If that's the case, why is it an open problem? [18:55] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FKc5zc3kn8&feature=related [18:55] 18:53 [18:55] but it's not a good showcase of it [18:55] @alex: it's just one mode [18:57] still looking for a good video [18:57] <@alexanderWilms> so we would need to decide whether we want this mode additionally to the normal mode? [18:58] we don't need a normal mode [18:58] you can show the toolbar by tapping the screen in lights-out mode [18:58] which you could sort of see on that video [19:00] <@alexanderWilms> would new icons be added to that bar for editing? [19:00] we wouldn't use the lights-out mode for editing [19:00] <@alexanderWilms> ah ok [19:00] it's more appropriate for reading, when you don't want to see the chrome most of the time [19:01] <@alexanderWilms> but whats the problem? [19:01] <@alexanderWilms> do we decide on using lights-out for the viewer? [19:02] yes [19:02] and I'm lookin at how lights-out mode handles toolbars [19:02] <@alexanderWilms> ok [19:03] I think they're overlaid [19:03] I'm not sure, though [19:04] hm, can't find it right now [19:05] what about the way the navigator works [19:05] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/File_Viewer [19:05] <@alexanderWilms> looks good [19:05] ok, thanks [19:06] I feel like the whiteboard is half-finished [19:06] <@alexanderWilms> the toolbar in that mock up, is that an overlay as described in the 'open problems' section [19:06] yes [19:06] I'd prefer it to be dark, though, as in https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:V-bar.png [19:07] how about we leave crafting the tentative design to next week? [19:07] I feel like we're about half-done with proposals... [19:08] what do you think? [19:08] <@alexanderWilms> I agree [19:08] <@alexanderWilms> Off-topic, but awesome: https://plus.google.com/107387848310635899060/posts/LRwJouvnFu5 [19:08] <@alexanderWilms> Well, relatively [19:08] :) [19:09] <@alexanderWilms> Sanity [19:09] yay, power off is back :D [19:09] <@alexanderWilms> remote control? [19:10] yes [19:10] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Impress_remote [19:10] let's go through the open problems [19:10] Presentation of Slide Notes [19:10] as I said before, I would prefer to present them along with the slide preview [19:11] in my mockups, you can even adjust the area the notes get, so you could have a view with just the notes or just the previews... [19:11] but it doesn't present the two as different views [19:11] what do you think? [19:12] <@alexanderWilms> What did we decide on showing the next slide? [19:12] <@alexanderWilms> Yeah, makes sense [19:12] <@alexanderWilms> It's probably easier for end users [19:12] so... solution A, then? [19:13] <@alexanderWilms> solution A [19:13] <@alexanderWilms> ? [19:13] ok, thanks [19:14] <@alexanderWilms> That was supposed to be a question [19:14] <@alexanderWilms> What is that solution A [19:14] the first solution mentioned [19:15] <@alexanderWilms> showing them at the same time? [19:15] having both in one view [19:15] <@alexanderWilms> yes [19:16] alright [19:16] advancement of slides [19:16] I feel like a gesture is most intuitive [19:16] <@alexanderWilms> simply sliding? [19:16] it's the same as moving through a photo slideshow [19:16] or through homescreens [19:16] or anything else that's paginated [19:17] <@alexanderWilms> alright [19:17] I think tapping the thumbnail would be good, too [19:17] maybe [19:17] or maybe not, nevermind [19:17] <@alexanderWilms> I'd expect that something opens [19:18] <@alexanderWilms> when tapping on it [19:18] ok, nevermind that then [19:18] so shall we use a sliding gesture, then? [19:18] <@alexanderWilms> yes [19:18] alright [19:19] Portrait vs. Landscape Mode [19:19] I feel like they should show the same info [19:19] especially as we won't have different views other than the slide browser [19:20] <@alexanderWilms> Is it possible to show a clock in the toolbar? [19:20] <@alexanderWilms> or only static icons? [19:21] hmph... [19:21] I would think it was possible [19:21] Apple's Keynote Remote shows the slide number [19:21] which is something that changes [19:21] but that's on iOS [19:22] I really think it's possible to show the clock there, though [19:22] <@alexanderWilms> ok [19:24] so we'll have similar views when switching orientations? [19:24] and put the clock in the action bar [19:24] (if possible) [19:24] <@alexanderWilms> yes [19:24] alright [19:24] screen blackout [19:25] I proposed to put it in the slide overview [19:25] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:P-slides.png [19:25] alternatively, it can be in the overflow menu [19:25] what do you think? [19:25] <@alexanderWilms> why not the overflow menu? [19:25] <@alexanderWilms> I think it's more intuitive that way [19:25] <@alexanderWilms> why should one need to change to the slide overview? [19:26] <@alexanderWilms> that was a rhetorical question [19:26] <@alexanderWilms> I think it is better to put it in the menu [19:27] I just feel like the "blackout screen" is a slide itself [19:27] and if you want to go to a slide, you go to the slide overview [19:27] plus you get a nice preview which you wouldn't get in the overflow menu [19:28] <@alexanderWilms> Well, on the desktop it isn't handled like another slide [19:28] <@alexanderWilms> and if one quickly needs to black out one doesn't need an obverview [19:28] it takes as many steps, though [19:28] but I see how it might be inconsistent with the desktop [19:29] so overflow menu, then [19:29] <@alexanderWilms> yeah, you're right regarding the number of steps [19:29] <@alexanderWilms> OK [19:29] alright [19:29] Auto-declining calls [19:30] overflow menu, if it becomes a feature [19:30] <@alexanderWilms> I didn't think of this, but it seems useful [19:30] or we could have a settings page [19:30] <@alexanderWilms> I hope not [19:30] it was a problem that a Keynote Remote reviewer brought up [19:30] ok, overflow menu it is, then :) [19:30] <@alexanderWilms> what exactly? [19:31] <@alexanderWilms> the problem [19:31] huh? [19:31] oh [19:31] that Keynote Remote didn't have an auto-decline calls feature [19:32] Landscape mode [19:32] <@alexanderWilms> Does it even make sense not to have this feature? [19:32] I'm not sure [19:32] <@alexanderWilms> auto-declining, I mean. Maybe we do'nt need the option to turn it on and off, but I'm not sure. [19:32] of course [19:32] I would keep it on [19:33] <@alexanderWilms> alright [19:33] I'm not sure, though [19:33] <@alexanderWilms> We don't want to end up like the gnome designers :) [19:33] what do you mean? [19:33] oversimplifying things? [19:33] <@alexanderWilms> Taking all the options away [19:33] I actually think they're doing a stand-up job [19:33] <@alexanderWilms> yes [19:34] except for the power off button [19:34] I don't really miss anything else in the UI [19:34] <@alexanderWilms> I think switching the icon theme and the gtk theme require gnome-tweaks-tool [19:34] sure [19:35] I see that as a plus for UI designers, though [19:35] they don't have to target a million looks and sizes and icon packs now [19:35] thank god [19:36] <@alexanderWilms> And the default looks are quite good, too [19:36] and Windows, macOS, Windows Phone, iOS, and webOS are the same [19:36] yeah, exactly [19:36] about the landscape mode [19:36] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:P-land.png ? [19:37] or something else? [19:37] also, should the separator be draggable in this case? [19:37] it might interfere a bit with scrolling [19:37] <@alexanderWilms> does dragging a seperator usually require a long tap? [19:37] though not much, as it's not that probably that your finger will land exactly on the separator handle [19:38] no, short tap, I believe [19:38] actually, drag, not tap [19:39] you have to tap the handle first [19:39] <@alexanderWilms> I think we should leave it that way [19:39] which is a pretty small circle in the middle of the screen [19:39] by "leave it that way", do you mean dragging the circle will change the area for notes and thumbnails? [19:40] <@alexanderWilms> yes [19:40] alright [19:41] switching clock modes [19:41] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Impress_remote#Switch_Clock_Modes [19:41] I feel like this is simpler than having buttons in the overflow menu [19:42] what do you think? [19:42] <@alexanderWilms> seems more intuitive to tap on the clock directly [19:42] <@alexanderWilms> instead of using the menu [19:42] I agree [19:43] so should we use my proposal as is? [19:43] or are there some problems that I've overlooked? [19:44] <@alexanderWilms> you're partly showing the next slide in a perspective [19:45] <@alexanderWilms> do we still want that? [19:45] I meant just with the clock, but we can talk about it in general [19:45] <@alexanderWilms> The clock is good so far [19:45] I would want it, yes [19:45] it doesn't take up much space [19:46] <@alexanderWilms> might be useful [19:46] and it previews the next slide, which could be helpful to some [19:46] <@alexanderWilms> would it use a nice coverflow animation (If the GSoC student has enogh time) [19:46] in landscape mode, if the note pane was hidden, it could show the next and previous slides with just a slide tilt [19:47] it should [19:48] <@alexanderWilms> how does one hide the note pane? [19:48] <@alexanderWilms> via the menu? [19:48] by dragging the separator [19:48] using the circular handle [19:48] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Press.png [19:48] <@alexanderWilms> so the seperator would still be visible? [19:49] yes [19:49] was it not supposed to? [19:49] <@alexanderWilms> I didn't think about it that much [19:50] alright [19:50] <@alexanderWilms> If one does [19:50] if one does? [19:51] what did you mean by that? [19:51] <@alexanderWilms> If one drags it down to the bottom in portrait mode, how does the size of the slides change? [19:52] <@alexanderWilms> they can't become oven bigger, right? [19:52] the slide thumbnail gets bigger, the next and previous slides on the side get more tilted until they disappear [19:53] <@alexanderWilms> so it would simply be surrounded by a lot of whitespace [19:53] on the top and bottom, yes [19:53] <@alexanderWilms> ok [19:54] alright [19:54] the slide browser [19:54] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Impress_remote#Slide_Browser [19:54] I imagine it like this, of course without the blank screen [19:54] <@alexanderWilms> looks good [19:55] no issues with it, then? [19:55] <@alexanderWilms> no [19:55] ok [19:56] I don't think we know how the user will connect to the computer yet [19:56] that's something for the developer to determine [19:56] so I guess we can't work on "Initial setup" yet... [19:56] or am I wrong? [19:56] <@alexanderWilms> He wanted to use bluetooth and wireless lan, I think [19:57] <@alexanderWilms> plus an additional PIN to avoid pranks [19:57] how would the PIN work? [19:57] <@alexanderWilms> I guess the BT/WLAN doesn't matter [19:58] would the desktop app generate a PIN and the remote approve it or vice versa? [19:58] <@alexanderWilms> you set it in impress and need to type it in the remote [19:58] ok [19:59] do we need to design a UI for the BT/WLAN connection, or is that handled by the OS? [19:59] in Keynote Remote, the PIN is generated by the remote [19:59] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTYgsdvbEBM [20:00] maybe we should auto-generate a passcode [20:00] <@alexanderWilms> I think it's handled by the OS [20:00] would probably be safer (people couldn't constantly choose 1234) and easier for the user [20:01] where in Impress do you think should be the entry point for the passcode? [20:02] "Slide Show>Connect with Impress Remote"? [20:02] <@alexanderWilms> Yeah [20:02] <@alexanderWilms> "For authentification I thought it would be easiest to have a passphrase [20:02] <@alexanderWilms> which is used to encrypt the serial stream between LO and the app -- [20:02] <@alexanderWilms> this is mainly to prevent people playing pranks rather than to provide [20:02] <@alexanderWilms> high security. " [20:02] of course [20:02] alright [20:02] do you want to work on the tentative design or should I? [20:03] (I'd send you the SVG source of mine, of course.) [20:03] <@alexanderWilms> for the remote? [20:03] <@alexanderWilms> I can do that [20:03] alright [20:03] I think we're done here [20:04] I'll put up the IRC log on the wiki [20:04] <@alexanderWilms> thx [20:04] <@alexanderWilms> I'm so tired now [20:04] :) ok [20:04] <@alexanderWilms> when will you send the svgs over? [20:04] sometime today [20:05] I might have to clean them up a bit, as they contain some unnecessary elements [20:05] <@alexanderWilms> See you next week, then [20:05] see you [20:05] :)