Design/Meetings/2012-09-08

Attendees

 * alexanderW
 * Astron

Topics

 * Tango icons

Log
16:16:02 astron:'ello 16:17:40 alexanderwilms: hi 16:18:02 astron: sorry for my two weeks of absence... 16:18:24 alexanderwilms: I was absent the week before the last one, too 16:18:51 alexanderwilms: I made some progress on the Tango-testing theme 16:19:02 astron: yes, i saw that... 16:19:09 astron: that's great! 16:19:21 alexanderwilms: :) 16:19:25 astron: (well, i think i saw it) 16:19:27 alexanderwilms: are there any icons you disagree with? 16:19:42 astron: hm... the tables icon is a bit too green, i think 16:20:24 alexanderwilms: okay, maybe a bit darker and less saturated? 16:21:19 astron: yes. also, please try to respect the tango guideline of using two strokes (a dark and a light one) next to each other for the outline 16:21:39 astron: – you don't have to make the light one all that light though. 16:22:47 alexanderwilms: alright 16:22:49 astron: wait, i just saw you did that 16:22:52 astron: sorry 16:23:02 alexanderwilms: the contrast is not that high 16:24:25 alexanderwilms: Is the metaphor masterpages okay? 16:24:33 astron: lemme have a look 16:24:55 astron: looks great! 16:25:25 alexanderwilms: thanks 16:25:37 astron: although you don't seem to have done small ones yet..? is that on your roadmap, too? 16:26:19 alexanderwilms: I wanted to ensure that the lc_ ones are okay with you before doing the small ones 16:26:28 astron: ah. okay. 16:26:46 astron: well, i guess the small ones are really rather tricky... 16:27:09 alexanderwilms: I saw that at least one icon for calc was 26x26px 16:27:38 alexanderwilms: Can theoratically any canvas size be used? 16:27:49 astron: ahm. yes. 16:28:32 astron: but: the original theme (which used to be classic but is galaxy now) always has to use 16*16 and 26*26. all other themes can use whatever they want 16:28:46 astron: :) 16:29:03 alexanderwilms: interesting 16:29:15 astron: so, i guess going 22*22 wouldnt present us with a huge problem actually. 16:29:20 alexanderwilms: especially wrt 'retina' displays 16:29:31 astron: if you do say so, yes. 16:30:05 astron: sure, there's a lot more to catering for hi-ppi displays than icons, but that can actually be a good start. 16:31:15 astron: do you know if mireks gonna come today? 16:31:30 alexanderwilms: He send a mail saying he wouldn't make it 16:31:36 astron: ah okay. 16:31:55 astron: then, i guess ill inform you about the last two irc calls... right? 16:32:51 alexanderwilms: I attended the last one 16:32:56 alexanderwilms: or esc? 16:33:21 astron: uhm... yes. esc calls. 16:33:57 alexanderwilms: I read the notes 16:34:03 astron: but you can tell me about the gist of the last irc meeting. :) 16:34:10 alexanderwilms: Lubos is working on Font embedding :) 16:34:32 alexanderwilms: yes 16:34:43 astron: yes. that is great. and font downloading is still only on the horizon... 16:35:22 alexanderwilms: ... 16:35:24 alexanderwilms: one sec 16:36:25 alexanderwilms: We weren't sure how to credit the Gnome icons 16:36:42 alexanderwilms: But since we discussed that via mail it's resolved 16:37:11 astron: half resolved at least... 16:37:15 astron: anyway... 16:37:34 astron: do you have a recent master build at hand? 16:38:02 alexanderwilms: No, I talked to William if he can upload his master builds somewhere 16:38:56 alexanderwilms: It takes ages to compile and I still wasn't able to build it myself 16:39:02 astron: what stops you from running... https://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/Linux-Fedora17-x86_64@4-gcc-4.7-dbgutil/master/ 16:39:36 astron: ? 16:39:39 alexanderwilms: Does it work when I convert the package with alien? 16:40:03 astron: oh, does this contain rpms? 16:40:07 alexanderwilms: Yes 16:40:17 astron: uh sorry. bad avice then. 16:40:19 astron: +d 16:40:42 astron: hm... well you can run the windows build under wine. 16:40:47 astron: its a kludge though 16:41:03 alexanderwilms: Didn't work for me 16:41:15 alexanderwilms: I could try it again, though 16:41:21 astron: oh. well thats really bad then. 16:42:40 astron: oh and then, isnt there a ppa by bjoern? 16:43:06 alexanderwilms: I think it only contains updated releases 16:43:49 alexanderwilms: 1:3.6.1~rc2-1ubuntu3~precise1 16:43:58 alexanderwilms: that's the newest version in the PPA 16:44:31 astron: okay. im zipping up my build right now. 16:44:39 alexanderwilms: thanks 16:44:41 astron: and will upload to dropbox... 16:45:01 astron: not sure it will work for you, since i am now building on o-suse 16:45:38 alexanderwilms: For testing the icons I modified images_tango.zip 16:46:01 astron: that's probably the sanest possible thing :) 16:46:02 alexanderwilms: Does the master build contain icons for the template dialog in icon-themes/tango ? 16:46:10 astron: mine does. 16:46:18 astron: oh wait sorry.. 16:46:52 astron: no it still doesnt 16:47:14 alexanderwilms: Do you know the icon names that would be neccessary 16:47:29 alexanderwilms: ? 16:47:30 astron: not really. 16:47:46 alexanderwilms: Hm, maybe we should ask Rafael 16:48:53 astron: ok, so, ill notify you in half an hour or so... then, this should work: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/87946285/libreoffice/install.7z 16:49:15 astron: okay... 16:51:14 astron: i wanted to upload a screenshot of the new option eike added, but now dropbox is busy... 16:51:25 astron: (with the 7z file) 16:51:36 alexanderwilms: I saw it in the release notes for 3.7 16:51:45 alexanderwilms: a text entry, right? 16:52:48 astron: right. 16:52:58 astron: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/87946285/libreoffice/dac-pattns.png 16:53:02 astron: there it is. 16:53:32 alexanderwilms: Does it have a hint text? 16:53:33 astron: i really dont like it. 90% of people will not know what to do with it and it just clogs our options... 16:53:51 astron: not more than what you see. 16:53:59 alexanderwilms: hm 16:54:50 alexanderwilms: But is there another way to specify so many possible combinations? 16:55:13 astron: well, id say, do it in a text file that no one has to look at. 16:55:23 astron: :) 16:56:12 alexanderwilms: maybe the about:config functionality? 16:57:12 astron: or that. 16:58:33 astron: is mirek still working on the options? 16:58:58 alexanderwilms: We continued working on that last IRC 16:59:11 astron: right, yeah... 16:59:19 astron: havent read it all, though. 17:00:43 astron: anyway, we should tell him :) 17:00:55 astron: okay, on to the second esc call... 17:00:59 alexanderwilms: yes 17:02:39 astron: * again, not much from me, but michael asked me/us about feedback on three things: 17:03:30 alexanderwilms: I think the header/footer thing is an issue that bother quite many 17:03:45 alexanderwilms: What should be do wrt the gradient fills? 17:03:53 astron: yes, i think so, too. its probably for the better... 17:04:14 astron: right, we are supposed to judge the gradient fills ui. 17:04:40 astron: so far, its pretty much all consistent with what you can do for shapes though, so... 17:05:01 alexanderwilms: The default gradients are pretty horrible, though 17:05:06 astron: yes. 17:05:24 astron: one other thing that bothers me a bit is that it always colours individual cells 17:06:03 alexanderwilms: It's not possible top stretch a gradient over several cells? 17:06:05 astron: so, you cant have a gradient over the whole page, but you can have gradients that repeat in every cell. 17:06:11 astron: right 17:06:22 astron: at least i found no way of doing that 17:07:05 astron: dunno though how it is in excel, since i have recently reinstalled my windows partition, too and since then havent had mso starter 17:07:41 alexanderwilms: Is that somehow related to color sclaes? https://www.libreoffice.org/assets/Uploads/EN-Project_images/3.6NewFeatures/Calc/_resampled/resizedimage183112-Colorformats.png 17:07:48 astron: no. 17:08:12 alexanderwilms: ah, okay 17:08:16 astron: colour scales were available in 3.6. the gradients are purely for design purposes 17:09:14 astron: but do you share my concern that it might be essential to allow adding a consistent gradient over multiple cells? 17:10:34 alexanderwilms: I'm not sure if it's essential, but when we allow gradients it would be nice not to be resrticted in such a way 17:11:53 astron: okay. what i dont like about it is that it invites incredibly bad design, i.e.: lets put a differently-coloured gradient over every cell. 17:13:05 alexanderwilms: Maybe this would allow us to have really slick spreadsheets like Numbers 17:13:26 alexanderwilms: *like the ones possible with Numbers, I meant 17:13:40 astron: i have never actually used numbers or seen much that was done with it 17:14:34 alexanderwilms: I've only seen some screenshots 17:15:21 astron: ah. 17:16:03 astron: anything in particular that i should take a look at? 17:17:02 alexanderwilms: not really. If you google some pictures you see that they diable the grid in most cases and that they are more visual 17:17:08 alexanderwilms: *disable 17:19:52 alexanderwilms: Anyway, should we proceed? 17:22:33 astron: ha, they have a car called the mars volta... http://www.flickr.com/photos/brajeshwar/1060134420/lightbox/ 17:22:41 astron: okay. lets proceed 17:24:22 alexanderwilms: On an unrelated note, how should the spage icons look like? 17:24:32 alexanderwilms: *shape 17:24:36 astron: upload is done now: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/87946285/libreoffice/install.7z 17:24:41 alexanderwilms: great 17:24:44 astron: which shape icon? 17:25:06 alexanderwilms: the one available in draw 17:25:11 alexanderwilms: *ones 17:25:34 alexanderwilms: and in writer and impress if one enables clicks on the brush icon 17:26:03 astron: ah, those... well, ideally, a little less grey but not too exciting either. 17:26:17 alexanderwilms: alright 17:26:27 astron: blue would sound good to me, i e like the rotation icon..? 17:26:56 alexanderwilms: I can try to batch-convert them 17:26:59 astron: have you added a new "arrange" icon? 17:27:20 alexanderwilms: arrange? 17:27:31 alexanderwilms: How does that look like? 17:28:33 astron: its a couple of rectangles atop each other – i.e. like bring to front 17:28:45 alexanderwilms: not yet 17:28:50 astron: (which is one of the arrangement functions available.) 17:28:59 alexanderwilms: I think they should all look similar 17:29:02 astron: right, but i wonder: why is it white? 17:29:10 astron: (at least here) 17:29:26 alexanderwilms: Here it's blue and green 17:29:30 alexanderwilms: an ugly green 17:29:49 astron: yes. thats a holdout from industrial 17:30:04 astron: but in my build, there's also a white version... weird 17:30:20 astron: ah.. its because i switched themes. 17:30:28 alexanderwilms: ok 17:30:35 astron: so, its been there all along. 17:32:42 alexanderwilms: Do you know how to perform Find&amp;replace on a llot of text files at the same time? 17:33:04 astron: notepad++ offered that. jedit too 17:33:12 alexanderwilms: great, thanks 17:33:38 astron: otherwise, you can presumably use sed or somethign 17:33:50 astron: ^gn^ng 17:34:05 alexanderwilms: a cli program? 17:34:11 astron: yes 17:34:35 astron: im still not a command line guru. i guess id need a few years to become that... 17:36:09 astron: so i might have named the wrong software 17:36:27 alexanderwilms: I'll try notepad++ 17:38:56 astron: have you gotten my build to work, btw? 17:39:37 alexanderwilms: trying right now 17:39:49 astron: okay 17:41:58 alexanderwilms: /home/alexander/libre/program/oosplash: error while loading shared libraries: libpng14.so.14: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory 17:43:13 astron: well ... that... probably means you cant run it. if it cant find whats likely the first external dependency on launch, you can be sure it will find many more. 17:43:14 alexanderwilms: libpng12-dev ist installiert 17:43:46 astron: it only needs libpng12 on runtime, the dev version is only for building 17:44:13 alexanderwilms: package cannot be found 17:44:16 astron: i could try rebuilding without system-cairo and system-pango... 17:44:45 alexanderwilms: what does pango have to do with this? 17:44:45 astron: really? then the name of the normal package must be different. i am sure it is already installed. 17:45:15 astron: i thought that pulls in all the drawing libraries from the system, but i might be wrong. 17:45:27 alexanderwilms: I'll run apt-get install libpng* 17:45:42 alexanderwilms: hm, doesn't help 17:46:46 alexanderwilms: William is trying to build LO so that it runs on Ubuntu and derivatives 17:48:39 astron: "is trying"? surely hes had successful builds before, no? 17:49:04 alexanderwilms: I think he's using arch 17:49:11 alexanderwilms: or gentoo 17:50:18 astron: oh, well, if youre a ubuntu user then thats probably as good as my own build :( 17:51:48 alexanderwilms: "I began to compile all missing/outdated dependencies and manually update them, but it'll be a nightmare for you to do the same. 17:51:50 alexanderwilms: I've thus the idea to link these libraries as static (which will increase compilation size, but I don't care). I'm waiting for a response from others devs how to achieve this." 17:52:54 astron: okay. if theyre statically linked that might help ... 17:53:09 alexanderwilms: I guess 17:54:57 astron: okay. 17:55:11 astron: again, on the topic of icons.. 17:55:25 alexanderwilms: yes? 17:55:47 astron: there's something wrong with the spellcheck icons. 17:55:56 astron: they look really odd. 17:56:38 astron: i mean, the text was barely readable in the upstream versions of these icons, but now its worse. 17:58:34 alexanderwilms: The upstream ones contained bitmaps within the original SVG 17:58:58 alexanderwilms: probably each pixel was optimized by hand 17:59:21 alexanderwilms: I tried to improve it but apparently it didn't quite work out 18:00:25 alexanderwilms: Probably better if we use the bitmaps directly 18:00:35 astron: maybe 18:00:48 alexanderwilms: or less characters 18:01:09 astron: upstream use only "Ab" for the smaller ones... 18:02:01 astron: anyway, that seems to be an option 18:08:25 alexanderwilms: So, what's next? 18:09:14 astron: hm... there seem to be a few icons that come out of humanity... is that right? 18:09:59 alexanderwilms: Which ones for example? 18:10:26 alexanderwilms: Humanity is the old gnome icon theme adapted for Ubuntu? 18:11:28 astron: the drwaing toolbar icon, the diagram icon and the navigator icon 18:12:13 alexanderwilms: well, they probably weren't in the original gnome theme 18:12:14 astron: also, the theme you are referring to is called just "human" which is confusing ... but doesnt matter 18:13:23 astron: where do these icons come from then? 18:14:07 alexanderwilms: Didn't Jakub create the early Tango icons for OpenOffice? 18:16:04 astron: i think were misunderstanding each other. 18:16:31 astron: i was talking about the new versions of those icons that are in tango testing 18:16:41 alexanderwilms: Ah 18:16:55 alexanderwilms: The navigator icon is from Gnome git 18:16:59 alexanderwilms: the other ones were created by me 18:19:00 astron: oh. okay. they looked foreign to me. sorry. 18:20:39 astron: although, why did you rework the diagram icon so much then? i actually liked the old version (except for the percent sign...) 18:21:42 alexanderwilms: I wanted to remove the percent sign, use the same segments as the ods icons in the gnome theme and use as many pixels as possible 18:22:25 astron: okay. 18:26:22 astron: does that mean you used the branding colours or did you use tango colours? 18:28:08 alexanderwilms: I just chose colors that seemed to fit 18:28:43 alexanderwilms: The tango palette lacks really vibrant colors IMHO 18:30:06 astron: you should try to stick with the palette. that's what it's for... 18:30:47 astron: (of course you can add white highlights and black shades etc... but in general try to keep close to it.) 18:30:55 alexanderwilms: okay 18:31:08 alexanderwilms: I'll update them 18:31:36 astron: (note also: the old charts icon looked more vibrant on my monitor than the new one.) 18:32:31 alexanderwilms: I probably also used too much highlights 18:33:24 astron: not sure. that seems fine to me... 18:40:31 alexanderwilms: I'll update the masterpage icons, too 18:40:45 alexanderwilms: to see whether the desaturated blue looks good 18:41:41 astron: okay. 18:42:24 astron: actually, are you interested in doing the icon for impress remote? 18:43:22 alexanderwilms: the one used in LibO? 18:44:29 astron: no. for the android app 18:44:53 astron: (as michael said during the call three weeks ago) 18:46:15 alexanderwilms: I could try working on that 18:47:03 alexanderwilms: Are the ones used in the mockup basically ok? 18:47:09 alexanderwilms: only redo them? 18:47:37 astron: hm, what i mean is the actual app icon 18:47:52 alexanderwilms: Ah, ok 18:48:27 alexanderwilms: What should it look like, though? 18:49:23 astron: I would have thought about the impress icon and superimposed some sort of black boxy remote with two huge buttons... but... thats only in my mind right now. 18:50:07 alexanderwilms: I tried something like that when we were still designing the mockup and it didn't look that good 18:50:33 alexanderwilms: Maybe it turns out better this time 18:50:40 astron: okay. 18:51:07 astron: btw, there already is something called impress remote on the play store: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.steppschuh.impressremote 18:52:45 alexanderwilms: using gnome icons in a commercial app? 18:53:07 alexanderwilms: I think the icon isn't that good 18:55:42 alexanderwilms: Maybe the impress icon + those wlan 'waves'? 18:55:59 astron: that sounds like a good idea. 18:57:41 alexanderwilms: using the tilted 3d style? 18:57:56 alexanderwilms: The one presented in the Android design guidelines 18:58:08 astron: i wouldn't tilt it very much, just a little, like the messages app 18:59:56 astron: but in any case: these are just ideas. do whatever you find looks best. 19:00:19 alexanderwilms: okay 19:01:53 astron: i am actually trying to install the apk from andrzej now... see what it looks like... 19:02:32 alexanderwilms: good 19:02:59 astron: here's another idea: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.pptremotecontrol.android.presenter 19:03:13 astron: dont know if it soo good, but interstign 19:05:06 alexanderwilms: maybe harder to recognize at lower resolutions 19:06:09 alexanderwilms: Something else: Do you think Open Sans looks better than Liberation Sans at small sizes? 19:09:21 astron: my opinion is that i dont like liberation sans at all... about the actual question... i think both are about equally clear 19:11:06 alexanderwilms: http://ubuntuone.com/4YJ2H7VRHSIgzQzMZ82urr 19:12:01 alexanderwilms: That's a document using default styles, but I swapped Liberation (Serif/Sans) to Open Sans 19:13:05 alexanderwilms: I think it'd be great if we could at least make this move as it supports so many weights. 19:13:15 alexanderwilms: Especially Light 19:13:54 astron: yeah 19:14:54 alexanderwilms: I noticed that even here headings 6 -10 are smaller than text body 19:15:03 astron: yes. 19:15:18 astron: of course, depending on the size of the largest headline 19:16:16 alexanderwilms: heading? 19:16:41 alexanderwilms: Heading 1 style showed percentages 19:16:54 astron: yes, heading, i mean 19:16:56 alexanderwilms: the other ones pt values 19:17:12 alexanderwilms: ah, no 19:17:55 alexanderwilms: hm, Heading 3 is an exception then 19:18:32 astron: it shouldnt be 19:19:09 alexanderwilms: Could you try it with a new document? 19:20:57 astron: i see the same bug – for heading 2 and 3 19:21:16 alexanderwilms: same here 19:21:20 alexanderwilms: missed h2 19:22:15 alexanderwilms: these are hard coded right? 19:22:16 astron: its also already in 3.5 19:22:21 astron: likely 19:25:17 alexanderwilms: Maybe we could contact Cedric 19:25:22 astron: not sure where though. 19:25:41 astron: yes, do contact cedric 19:26:19 alexanderwilms: Does it make sense to fix the hardcoded stuff? 19:27:13 alexanderwilms: Or rather load an empty document like he suggested for 3.6? 19:28:15 astron: i think fixing whats hardcoded is necessary anyway, otherwise wre just papering over the bug 19:28:55 alexanderwilms: ok 19:30:24 astron: sorry. i restarted gnome shell and that did some evil apparently 19:35:16 alexanderwilms: had issues with my WM, too 19:35:19 alexanderwilms: sry 19:35:33 alexanderwilms: :| 19:35:59 alexanderwilms: So who should mail cedric? 19:36:37 astron: well, you noticed the bug :) 19:36:44 alexanderwilms: okay :) 19:38:41 astron: okay. shall we end the chat for today? 19:38:59 astron: or is there something else youd like to discuss 19:39:31 alexanderwilms: I don't think so 19:40:14 astron: okay. then good night... 19:40:18 alexanderwilms: Thanks and have a nice weekend
 * two weeks ago there wasnt much design-wise, except eike added some ui to edit date acceptance patterns. it sounded pretty horrible to me – and it seems like it is...
 * the header/footer indicator is now activated via clicking only (not via mouse-over)
 * you can now add a gradient to cells
 * something about the borders, apparently not the problem that they're too thick.