Design/Meetings/2013-03-30

Attendees

 * colonelqubit
 * issa
 * mirek2

Topics

 * Query properties icon
 * Flat icons
 * Design wiki
 * Restructuring toolbars
 * New LibreOffice version alert

Log
[19:04] == issa [256a35a5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.37.106.53.165] has joined #libreoffice-design [19:06] hi issa [19:06] hello mirek [19:08] let's wait until 17:10, then we can start [19:08] sure [19:11] alright, let's start [19:11] ok [19:12] I suppose you'd like to talk icons? [19:12] yes but before that the icon they requested [19:12] okay [19:12] I've designed it for all themes https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Dbqueryproperties.zip [19:13] the icon is for query properties, so I took the icon for control/form properties for all themes and combined it with the add/remove query icon [19:15] wow, you went all out [19:15] btw, you don't have to design for all the icon themes [19:16] why not :) [19:16] only Tango is fine, though HC and Oxygen are good too [19:16] (it's just one icon, if it was more I wouldn't have done it) [19:16] issa: sure, I'm not stopping you [19:16] just in case you decide to design more icons [19:16] designing for each pack would take a lot of time [19:17] yeah [19:17] I assume Human = Tango? [19:17] it seemed that way [19:17] I don't know about the other icons but I checked the parts I needed [19:18] notice the screw driver is different [19:18] why is that? [19:18] it's that way in human [19:19] I think that's just a leftover from Industrial [19:19] (we don't have Tango icons for everything, so we use Industrial as a fallback) [19:20] the strong black outline doesn't really fit the Tango style [19:20] yes, I didn't make one for Tango as the rest of Base icons are Industrial [19:20] try Base, almost all exclusive Base icons don't have a Tango version [19:20] that's because we don't have Tango icons yet, though [19:21] it's not a decision, it's just that no designer devotes time to Base [19:21] yeah I know [19:22] but it wouldn't make sense to make this one in Tango when all the similar ones aren't [19:23] okay [19:23] though it would make sense to have a Tango one ready, just in case someone wants to devote some time to the Base icons [19:23] but I won't push you [19:24] and it's true that there are much more important things to take care of :) [19:24] the one who makes them should make it as it uses other icons as a base :) [19:24] alright :) [19:25] I suppose we should discuss the flat icons now [19:26] yes [19:26] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Flat_icon_set [19:26] someone should give me the okay on these so that I move on to other icons (Impress and Calc toolbars, etc.) [19:27] quick review: (I know it's bothersome to go over the same icons over and over, but it'd be good to get the basics down, then it'll go quicker) [19:28] sure, go on [19:28] * the large "New file" icon seems to have a different ratio of sides than the small one [19:28] (we should probably stick to one ratio) [19:28] whata ratio exactly? [19:28] *what [19:28] it uses the same width [19:30] the small one has a 4:5 ratio, whereas the large one has 6:7 [19:31] the large one is noticably wider [19:31] oh height to width ratio [19:31] yup [19:31] yeah I didn't take that into account [19:32] also, the PDF page icon has a different size from that of the page [19:32] those sizes should probably be uniform [19:33] umm so the small one with a thicker outline? [19:33] (it's not a page after all) [19:34] what do you mean, the small one with a thicker outline? [19:34] compare the page outline with the pdf icon outline [19:35] sure, the outline can be thicker [19:35] I'm just slightly bothered by the ratio of the PDF icon [19:35] it will affect visibility though [19:35] as it seems arbitrary [19:36] I copied the Tango testing one last time and you said it was fine :P [19:37] the symbol is great, just the small version's size doesn't feel quite natural compared to the other icons [19:37] it seems a bit squished [19:37] somehow [19:38] hmm [19:39] it's not that big of a deal, though [19:39] ok it's one pixel shorter than the (new) page icon [19:40] perhaps you could make it a pixel higher, then? [19:40] yes [19:40] great :) [19:41] next small issue: the large link icon is a bit too complex [19:41] but it would be too small if I keep it the same as small [19:42] (and would look like a burger if I thicken the lines) [19:42] == mirek2_ [4e66c274@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.102.194.116] has joined #libreoffice-design [19:42]  sorry, browser crashed [19:42]  about the link icon: could you perhaps just remove the parts of chains on the sides [19:43] but it would be too small if I keep it the same as small [19:43] (and would look like a burger if I thicken the lines) [19:43]  to look somewhat like http://images.google.com/imgres?q=chain+icon&hl=en&gbv=2&biw=1366&bih=647&tbm=isch&tbnid=emZDxUnHgh7zeM:&imgrefurl=http://vector-icons-download.blogspot.com/2011/08/chain-or-link-icon.html&docid=LuTlpbIqRbw91M&imgurl=http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-NavZH5gkwOA/TlG9paKFA8I/AAAAAAAADlY/R11byp9uBo0/s1600/chain-link-icon.jpg&w=500&h=500&ei=EBZXUZvvL4K34ATvz4G4Dg&zoom=1&ved=1t:3588,r:42,s:0,i:242&iact=rc&dur=1 [19:43]  could you post a screen without the two horizontal lines at the sides? [19:44] sure [19:44]  maybe I'm just too used to the link symbol that I posted above... [19:45] == mirek2 [4e66c274@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.102.194.116] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] [19:46] http://i.imgur.com/pohAL5U.png [19:47]  hm, okay, I guess the original is best [19:47]  about the undo/redo buttons and the buttons using "a": it'd be good to increase the line thickness with size [19:48]  with the buttons using lines for paragraphs, though, it's good to keep a fixed line thickness in all sizes [19:51]  (you do this in icons like Grammar and Spelling, but not bold or underline) [19:51] sorry went away for a bit [19:52] wouldn't they look off that way? [19:52]  that's fine : [19:52]  :) [19:52] I did it with the small letters because they wouldn't be visible otherwise [19:53]  of course [19:53]  I mean that all the text should be thicker with larger sizes [19:53]  (just like with actual fonts) [19:55] but what about inconsistency? [19:55]  what inconsistency? [19:55] line width http://i.imgur.com/T8Vy7Ar.png [19:55] (these are older non pixel perfect, but you get the idea) [19:55]  with paragraphs, it makes sense to retain a fixed line size -- the icon is only showing another paragraph line [19:55] <mirek2_> the size of each paragraph line stays the same [19:57] I meant all lines, including those that make up the letters [19:58] also that would mean that the underline and strikethrough lines will be thinner than the letters lines [19:59] <mirek2_> the letters should be sized just like they are sized in LibreOffice [19:59] <mirek2_> you can try it out yourself [19:59] ok [19:59] about the pdf icon is this better png [19:59] * http://i.imgur.com/3IGewhy.png [20:01] <mirek2_> I think the dog ear complicates the icon a bit much [20:01] <mirek2_> also, the PDF symbol could perhaps be a bit higher? [20:01] <mirek2_> other than that, it's great :) [20:02] if it won't use the page metaphor I think it's better off with a 1 pixel outline (like the one on the wiki) [20:02] <mirek2_> sure, that's fine too [20:03] <mirek2_> the thing that bothered me was the inconsistency in its size [20:03] yeah no problem [20:03] <mirek2_> cool :) [20:05] anything else? [20:07] <mirek2_> just tiny things [20:07] <mirek2_> the large T feels a bit too round [20:08] from the inside? [20:08] <mirek2_> the serifs [20:08] let me try [20:09] <mirek2_> the zoom icon in the small version of Print preview feels inconsistent with the large icon [20:09] <mirek2_> (I prefer the large one) [20:10] <mirek2_> the large one is thicker [20:11] I just changed the stroke width, should I resize the circle/lens of the smaller one? [20:11] <mirek2_> yes, please :) [20:12] how about this T http://i.imgur.com/zn30PWd.png [20:13] <mirek2_> much better [20:21] <mirek2_> one more thing: the mail icon seems a bit too tall [20:22] it's the same as the page icon [20:22] <mirek2_> the envelope tends to be much wider [20:22] <mirek2_> http://www.google.cz/imgres?sa=X&biw=620&bih=588&tbm=isch&tbnid=-I2VeqjMvwl7MM:&imgrefurl=http://www.haberlerne.com/sondakika/internet/webmaster/haberleri/sitenize-mini-iconlar-ekleyin-4796.html/attachment/mail-icon&docid=squarFwxpCrRHM&imgurl=http://www.haberlerne.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/mail-icon.jpg&w=528&h=529&ei=NB9XUZanLKq44ASQg4HgBw&zoom=1&ved=1t:3588,r:13,s:0,i:174&iact=rc&dur=820&page=2&tbnh=183&tbnw=181& [20:23] <mirek2_> http://www.google.cz/imgres?sa=X&biw=620&bih=588&tbm=isch&tbnid=sn-B7yf7M1YmPM:&imgrefurl=http://kashiv.com/2012/10/27/heres-for-the-crazy-ones-in-mac-os-x/mail_document_icon_1024/&docid=C0kkQ3A0TycRGM&imgurl=http://kashiv.com/wp-content/uploads/mail_document_icon_1024.png&w=1024&h=1024&ei=NB9XUZanLKq44ASQg4HgBw&zoom=1&ved=1t:3588,r:19,s:0,i:192&iact=rc&dur=448&page=2&tbnh=182&tbnw=180&start=8&ndsp=12&tx=111&ty=80 [20:24] <mirek2_> (icons don't have to have the same height) [20:24] then why did you complain about the pdf icon size :p? [20:25] <mirek2_> because the PDF icon is supposed to be a page [20:25] but it isn't, given our symbol for a page [20:26] <mirek2_> true [20:26] <mirek2_> the PDF icon just stood out for me, though [20:26] <mirek2_> it felt odd [20:27] ok [20:30] <mirek2_> I mentioned this already: the undo/redo icons are too thin in their large icon [20:30] <mirek2_> they would probably be better just resized? [20:31] ,,, [20:31] *... [20:31] you should've specified the alignment icons when you told me to make everything the same width :( [20:32] <mirek2_> :( really sorry [20:32] <mirek2_> perhaps it's just the different height that bothers me [20:32] <mirek2_> the large undo/redo icons seem much higher [20:33] <mirek2_> somehow [20:33] <mirek2_> the round ends [20:34] <mirek2_> I don't know... [20:34] <mirek2_> other than that, the rest of the icons is great [20:35] ok [20:35] (I was trying to do it and show you but some curves got messed up) [20:36] <mirek2_> that's fine :) [20:36] so once I'm done with these I'll try to make the rest of the icons [20:36] <mirek2_> I was thinking that now, if you'd like to involve the community, we could start on the shape icons [20:37] there are approximately 30 icons for the standard toolbars of Calc and Impress [20:37] <mirek2_> those are relatively simple to make, yet there are so many that it's annoying to do alone [20:37] I actually have someone how could possibly do them :) [20:37] <mirek2_> oh, ok :) [20:38] <mirek2_> so you'd rather not try to involve the community? [20:38] <mirek2_> (an honest question: involving the community can be time-consuming and even counterproductive) [20:38] I'm not sure if anyone would be willing to [20:38] and yes it might be counterproductive [20:39] <mirek2_> alright [20:39] the one I'm talking about is a coworker so this simplifies communication [20:39] <mirek2_> ok [20:41] new topic: design wiki page [20:42] the main and developement pages have been updated and look great [20:42] we need to do something similar [20:43] <mirek2_> I was thinking about redesigning the page [20:44] <mirek2_> (my computer broke a while ago, so I haven't been able to do much work) [20:44] <mirek2_> (I keep borrowing computers) [20:44] oh I see, my condolences [20:44] <mirek2_> :) [20:45] <mirek2_> I was thinking we could do something more visual [20:46] <mirek2_> more like http://developer.android.com/design/index.html [20:47] still we could use the tables like the main wiki page https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Main_Page [20:47] or the development page https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development [20:47] <mirek2_> sure -- would you like to take care of that? [20:48] <mirek2_> I was also thinking we should merge analyses and whiteboards into a projects page [20:48] I'll try :) [20:48] sure [20:48] <mirek2_> as we're not working on that many things to require several pages [20:48] current projects and archived projects? [20:48] <mirek2_> what do you think? [20:48] <mirek2_> issa: yup [20:48] sounds great [20:49] <mirek2_> cool [20:49] the most important thing for me is to keep a page for work being done currently [20:49] so that anyone can get the idea at anytime without having to keep up with the mailing lisst [20:50] (for example I made a website concept for 4.0 but they had already decided on one in the mailing list, but I didn't know) [20:51] <mirek2_> yup, me too [20:51] so should move inactive stuff into the archive? for example fonts and global options analysis? [20:51] *should I [20:51] <mirek2_> fonts are happening [20:51] <mirek2_> global options analysis will be, hopefully [20:52] but the page hasn't been updated in months? [20:52] <mirek2_> true [20:52] <mirek2_> alright, you can archive it [20:52] ok then maybe rather than archive have them in an "adopt me" section in current projects? [20:53] (or "revive me" in archive :p) [20:53] <mirek2_> let's just archive it [20:54] and maybe write a note suggesting you revive any of these if you plan to work on them (unless otherwise noted) [20:55] <mirek2_> about the Options analysis: it's really kind of half-done [20:55] <mirek2_> not sure if it's appropriate to archive them [20:55] <mirek2_> it [20:57] <mirek2_> other than that, feel free to archive any of the inactive projects [20:58] sure [21:00] do I add a completed and abandoned sections in the archive? [21:01] <mirek2_> they're already there [21:01] <mirek2_> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Archive [21:02] Oh, my bad [21:04] wait, t-shirts 2013 is waiting to be addressed? [21:04] even though the deadline was last December? [21:04] <mirek2_> that's a complicated one... [21:04] <mirek2_> I guess it is waiting to be addressed... [21:04] did they implement one or not? [21:04] <mirek2_> not one of the ones designed [21:05] <mirek2_> they used their own [21:05] fair enough [21:05] (although perhaps the deadline should've been updated) [21:05] (that is if we still need one designed) [21:05] <mirek2_> I don't think we need one [21:06] <mirek2_> it couldn't hurt, though [21:06] then it is implemented :p [21:06] <mirek2_> ok [21:11] <mirek2_> any other topics? [21:19] nothing that I can think of [21:19] oh wait [21:19] restructuring toolbars [21:19] I know at least a couple of people who are interested in this [21:19] <mirek2_> I'm definitely one of them [21:19] shall they create a wiki page and start messing around with them? [21:20] <mirek2_> restructuring toolbars is quite a touchy area [21:21] well as long as it's a whiteboard they can write whatever they like no :p? [21:21] <mirek2_> sure, but I'm not sure how far that can get us [21:21] <mirek2_> I've proposed the following easy hacks as a start: [21:21] <mirek2_> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=62079 [21:21] <mirek2_> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60893 [21:22] <mirek2_> the Hidden Items Menu would allow us to hide certain elements by default without alienating the people who use these elements [21:22] <mirek2_> and right-aligned toolbars would help organize toolbars [21:23] that would be the same as more icons menu? [21:23] (the one that appears when the icons don't fit) [21:23] <mirek2_> yes [21:24] <mirek2_> except it would appear all the time and host the items that are hidden by default [21:24] <mirek2_> it would be optional and would be turned on for each toolbar separately [21:24] oh [21:24] <mirek2_> it would allow us to do something like Chrome's menu or elementary's appmenu [21:25] <mirek2_> or Android's action overflow [21:25] I honestly thought restructuring toolbars meant only decreasing the number of icons :p [21:25] <mirek2_> that's certainly part of it [21:26] <mirek2_> but, as I said, decreasing the number of icons is a touchy subject [21:26] even some that pretty much everyone would agree with? [21:26] <mirek2_> such as? [21:27] the editing something icon that's always disabled [21:27] (unless you are editing a readonly document) [21:27] <mirek2_> in that case, though, it's a really important icon [21:28] <mirek2_> it'd be great to eliminate it and use an infobar for that use case, though [21:28] <mirek2_> with an additional "Edit file" entry in the File menu in case the infobar was dismissed [21:29] <mirek2_> or have it appear only when needed [21:29] but it appears always, while you will only be using a read-only file a small fraction of times [21:29] also the spelling icons, one with a dropdown next to it is enough [21:29] (since you will only use it once per document) [21:30] <mirek2_> back to the Edit icon... [21:30] <mirek2_> how about having a separate "Read-only" toolbar with the Edit icon that would only appear with a Read-only document? [21:31] <mirek2_> you say you're a developer -- would you be able to pull something like this off [21:31] <mirek2_> ? [21:31] <mirek2_> as for the Spelling icon -- we've had arguments about which icon to turn off [21:31] probably not, but I could try and fail :p [21:31] <mirek2_> ok, sounds good :) [21:33] <mirek2_> the problem is, if we remove the icon, people who are used to it will complain [21:33] <mirek2_> which is why I'd prefer to have a Hidden Items Menu first, as that will help acclimate people to the new layout [21:33] maybe [21:33] but complainers will still complain [21:34] <mirek2_> it will keep the hidden commands quite accessible and offer a button to customize the toolbar for people who want to have it shown [21:34] there is already a Visible Icons Menu [21:34] <mirek2_> it's under a right-click menu, though, so it's not discoverable [21:35] it would be easier to add it where the Hidden Items Menu would be than add a customizable menu there [21:36] (or even add the whole right click menu there) [21:36] <mirek2_> well, the visible icons menu only works well if you want to show one or two icons [21:36] <mirek2_> also, the usefulness in the hidden items menu lies in that you can still access its items quite quickly [21:37] <mirek2_> (just like in the Chrome or Firefox menus) [21:37] <mirek2_> whereas with the Visible items menu, you first have to go to the menu, show it, then use it [21:37] <mirek2_> if it's a command that you need to use once, you then have to hide it again [21:37] maybe [21:38] Firefox has something like that? [21:39] <mirek2_> just on the left, and it's optional [21:39] <mirek2_> http://cdn.portableapps.com/FirefoxPortable.png [21:39] <mirek2_> http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4078/4916491747_67effa65fc_o.png [21:40] this isn't the same, this replaces the menu bar [21:40] just like ms office [21:41] <mirek2_> yes, it's not the same [21:41] <mirek2_> Chrome is a better example [21:41] <mirek2_> that, too, replaces the menubar, though [21:42] <mirek2_> that's not a bad thing, though -- being able to easily access more commands through the toolbar [21:42] right [21:44] I don't know it seems a bit redundant [21:44] having another menu in a toolbar with icon shortcuts for menu items [21:44] maybe if we keep them as icons in the menu [21:45] <mirek2_> we do it already, only we display it only when there are too many icons [21:45] <mirek2_> I mean, when the window size is too small [21:45] <mirek2_> and, until recently, every toolbar had an exhaustive menu [21:45] yes, what I'm saying add the icons you removed there [21:45] as icons instead of menu items [21:46] <mirek2_> there's an advantage to using menus there [21:46] which is? [21:47] <mirek2_> 1) unlike with toolbars, the vertical space you can use is limited only by the monitor size, so you can afford menus [21:47] <mirek2_> 2) labels help with identification [21:48] I think they include labels automatically anyway [21:48] <mirek2_> 3) both your eyes and your mouse move in a single direction [21:48] no, I meant top down icons [21:49] <mirek2_> perhaps I misunderstand your suggestion -- could you repeat it? [21:49] exactly like the current too many icons menu [21:49] <mirek2_> yes -- that's the idea [21:50] <mirek2_> only this menu would be shown by default [21:50] <mirek2_> and host the hidden-by-default (aka. removed) icons [21:50] <mirek2_> as well as the overflowing ones [21:51] that's exactly what I'm saying :) [21:51] http://i.imgur.com/nMta3T2.png [21:51] the hidden-by-default should go here and look like this [21:52] <mirek2_> yup [21:52] <mirek2_> I agree [21:52] :) [21:53] <mirek2_> do you think you could implement that? [21:53] <mirek2_> perhaps with Kendy's help? [21:54] honestly I have no idea [21:55] I've never added any new features, just fixed localization related bugs [21:55] <mirek2_> alright [21:55] <mirek2_> if you'd like to give it a shot, ask Kendy about the details :) [21:55] sure [21:55] <mirek2_> in any case, that's something we should do if we want to change the toolbar in any kind of major way [21:56] true [21:58] <mirek2_> or, if you know an interested dev, this would be great to have done [21:58] sure [21:58] <mirek2_> we could even try to raise some money for it, if needed [21:58] so if we had more than one toolbar, currently each one has it's own too-many-icons menu [21:59] maybe we should just create something new and presistant [21:59] maybe even give a different arrow symbol [22:00] <mirek2_> not sure I understand the idea [22:00] <mirek2_> the too-many-icons menu needs to be tied to the toolbar [22:01] oh ok never mind then [22:01] <mirek2_> each toolbar is a separate entity -- if you drag it out, the menu goes with [22:01] oh right [22:02] offtopic, but LibreOffice on windows is showing me that a new version is available [22:03] <mirek2_> ok... [22:03] I remember in an earlier meeting you said we shouldn't add that to the infobar [22:04] <mirek2_> no, because it's not relevant to the document [22:04] <mirek2_> theoretical scenario: [22:04] <mirek2_> let's say you're working on a project and have 15 files open in LibreOffice [22:04] ok got it [22:04] <mirek2_> alright :) [22:05] although it could appear in the first one of them [22:05] I mean this isn't a lot better http://i.imgur.com/vr0VxWn.png [22:06] <mirek2_> it isn't, you're right, but it's not good for infobars either [22:06] <mirek2_> I'm trying to remember what Firefox did... [22:07] <mirek2_> they had a separate pop-up, like so: http://www.stealthsettings.com/wp-content/images/images/MozillaFirefoxUpdateNewVersion3.5.4_B2F1/firefox3.5.4updateoption.jpg [22:07] <mirek2_> http://lighthouse.tamucc.edu/dnrpub/uploads/DNRNotes/ss-firefox-new-version-available.png [22:07] <mirek2_> that makes a lot more sense to me [22:07] <mirek2_> perhaps we should show a pop-up on LibreOffice start? [22:08] <mirek2_> that way, it's not something that interrupts the user's workflow [22:08] <mirek2_> and, having just started LibreOffice, the user shouldn't mind restarting it [22:09] sure [22:09] <mirek2_> you can try to find a developer to work on this on the mailing list [22:09] I guess, but it isn't a priority [22:10] <mirek2_> right [22:11] <mirek2_> any other topics? [22:11] no [22:11] <mirek2_> could you post the log, then? [22:12] <mirek2_> (I lost the first part of the chat) [22:12] ok