Design/Meetings/2012-07-15

Attendees

 * reisi007
 * Astron
 * Mirek2
 * Manas

Log
 15:58:59 astron: o hai, you two 15:59:02 mirek: hi astron 15:59:18 reisi007: (Slow typer) - Telko would be better IMHO 15:59:19 reisi007: Hi Astron ;) 15:59:46 astron: so, you are already discussing? 15:59:50 reisi007: No ;) 16:00:28 mirek: btw, did last week's meeting not take place? 16:00:37 mirek: it's not on the wiki 16:00:38 reisi007: No auto - correct here ; and Nope 16:00:44 reisi007: no meeting 16:00:46 astron: not so much, no. but i discussed a bit with florian 16:01:10 reisi007: I am Florian 16:01:22 astron: i know. 16:01:35 astron: incidentally, is alex already back from holiday already? 16:01:51 mirek: I don't know 16:03:07 astron: then, maybe wait a few more minutes before we ceremoniously begin the chat? 16:03:16 mirek: alright 16:03:20 reisi007: ok 16:03:33 mirek: while we wait, could you give a summary of this week's ESC call? 16:04:43 astron: okay, this week it was pretty short (only 50 mins). 16:04:56 reisi007: ;) 16:05:19 astron: michael said it was fine – i proposed to think about again after 3.6.2 if we get too much hatemail 16:06:04 mirek: :) ok 16:06:04 astron: * Mac finder bg for installer is always official artwork 16:06:15 astron: – not ideal 16:06:32 astron: * still haven't pushed the gnome icons in (sorry) 16:06:42 mirek: that's ok 16:06:45 astron: –need to do by monday 16:07:33 astron: lots of talk about gerrit, some gsoc students havent written their reports etc. 16:08:41 astron: rainer said qa was none too exciting &amp; 3.6 sailing +/- smoothly 16:08:58 mirek: alright 16:09:04 astron: RC2 will probably be tagged on monday. 16:09:20 mirek: ok 16:09:27 mirek: is that all? 16:09:30 astron: other things that are interesting: andrzej, the guy with impress remote has started to work on his project 16:09:41 mirek: great 16:09:43 reisi007: Cool idea ;) 16:10:08 astron: uhm, rafael has posted a mail on ux-advise. 16:10:28 astron: oh and kendy's back from holiday... 16:10:55 astron: [the last three things weren't discussed at the ESC call, as you might imagine.] 16:11:29 mirek: ok, nice 16:11:39 mirek: I didn't notice rafael's mail for some reason 16:11:47 astron: okay, then, i suppose we could start with the mail from rafael..? 16:11:57 mirek: alright 16:12:18 mirek: about the selection mode: it's there mainly for tablet users 16:12:20 reisi007: Didn't have it either 16:12:32 mirek: and it's basically a copy of Gnome's behavior 16:12:37 mirek: but it does need a better icon 16:12:50 mirek: the green tick seems to mean "done" 16:13:02 mirek: I think Gnome has a better icon 16:13:30 astron: right, also, what would be good, if selection mode were turned on automatically by right-clicking on a document symbol [bringing us in line with gnome and win8] 16:13:48 mirek: okay 16:13:57 mirek: should we lose the checkbox-on-hover, though? 16:14:17 mirek: seems like there are too many ways to select something 16:14:25 astron: let me have a look at the mockups... 16:14:35 mirek: btw, does Gnome really trigger selection mode on right-click? 16:14:49 mirek: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Templates_and_documents_rework 16:15:04 reisi007: Link please (to the mockup) - And there was the linbk ;) 16:15:25 astron: yes. you can try in gnome documents. 16:15:36 astron: (i have 0.40 or so ...) 16:15:39 mirek: I don't have them installed anymore 16:15:42 reisi007: I would leace it 16:15:43 mirek: they were too buggy 16:15:54 mirek: @reisi: I linked it already 16:16:07 reisi007: mirek: I know 16:16:15 reisi007: You are quicker then me ;) 16:16:28 mirek: :) 16:16:52 astron: okay, uhm, i think the visual cue of the checkbox should remain. 16:16:53 mirek: astron, your thoughts? 16:17:10 mirek: you mean checkbox on hover? 16:17:11 astron: maybe even an empty checkbox if things are not selected. 16:17:21 astron: (unconditionally) 16:17:45 mirek: so you're saying to always show the checkbox? 16:17:50 mirek: and get rid of selection mode? 16:17:51 mirek: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:T_select.png 16:18:10 reisi007: I would get rid of 16:18:53 reisi007: it 16:19:04 mirek: ok 16:19:23 mirek: astron? 16:19:25 astron: why get rid of it? it is my understanding that when you click on the document symbol in selection mode, it is selected; while in normal mode, it is opened 16:19:35 mirek: yes 16:19:49 mirek: the proposed behavior, though, is: 16:20:05 mirek: remove selection mode, use visible checkboxes to select templates 16:20:06 mirek: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/7/7c/T_select.png 16:20:18 mirek: and launch templates when the user clicks outside of the checkbox 16:20:24 mirek: (i.e. title or thumbnail) 16:20:52 astron: getting rid of selection mode would mean that you could only click the checkboxes – which would probably limit applicability of the ui on touch systems 16:21:00 reisi007: IMHO Selection mode is also possible, when a checkbox appears on hover (IMHO THAT is much more beautiful) 16:21:13 astron: (as the checkboxes are pretty small.) 16:21:18 reisi007: astron: Have not thought about touch devices... 16:21:25 mirek: astron: no, the user could tick the checkbox with touch 16:21:36 mirek: these are pretty big: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/7/7c/T_select.png 16:21:46 astron: i see them right in front of me. 16:22:04 astron: and i know i am fatfingering my phone all the time :) 16:22:19 reisi007: Keep in mind: On touch devices the selection mode is fullscreen. 16:22:42 mirek: we could have padding around the checkbox 16:22:57 reisi007: and I really don't think this is working pretty good. Doesn't it need to much space?? 16:23:06 astron: wouldnt that just increase the number of files that could be shown? 16:23:12 astron: [@reisi] 16:23:29 reisi007: (Space on touch devices... 16:23:59 reisi007: especially width) 16:24:25 mirek: reisi007: just to be clear: by "touch devices", we mean devices that accept touch input, but run traditional operating systems 16:24:37 reisi007: okay 16:24:42 mirek: like the new breed of hybrid notebooks that's showing up 16:25:02 reisi007: Okay.. 16:25:33 astron: @mirek: showing up already? or rather will show up with win8? 16:26:14 reisi007: Keeping in mind touch devices, the checkboxes *must* be visible all the time... 16:26:21 reisi007: astron: Showing up now 16:26:45 astron: and i thought i read too many gadget blogs... 16:26:53 astron: clearly im not uptodate 16:27:12 mirek: astron: asus transformer might count, since it also runs windows 16:27:24 mirek: but I mainly meant those planned for Windows 8 16:27:26 astron: okay. 16:27:31 reisi007: Well, staring with the touch PCs in late 2008 [OK good working ones in 2010+later) it is life 16:28:27 astron: okay ... back to the topic. 16:29:09 astron: i think, we should stick with selection mode for now, but add the right-click funtionality and think of a better icon 16:29:35 mirek: alright 16:29:39 reisi007: ok 16:30:29 mirek: on that note, what about the icons for the dialog? 16:30:45 astron: yes..? what about them? 16:31:25 mirek: we need to make them 16:31:36 mirek: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Tango_Icons 16:31:42 mirek: starting with "Create Template" 16:31:59 mirek: we already have a template icon 16:32:06 mirek: but I couldn't find an SVG version of it 16:32:11 astron: can you maybe start on them, ill help along after 3.6 rc3 is out 16:32:13 mirek: astron, do you have it? 16:32:18 astron: yes, i do. 16:32:32 astron: sorry, i should really upload that... 16:34:28 astron: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/87946285/libreoffice/presconf.zip 16:34:38 mirek: great, thanks 16:34:45 mirek: about " Can we rename the toolbar buttons to "Create Template", "Import Template" to “Create”, “Import”? Since we are already in the Template                            manager dialog box, “Create” will only mean “Create Template”." 16:34:55 astron: as a make-shift thing ive uploaded this to db... ill see how to commit this to the repo 16:34:55 mirek: what do you think? 16:35:29 reisi007: mirek: Would be a great idea 16:35:41 astron: we do mention "template" somewhere in the title bar, no? then yes. 16:35:41 reisi007: Getting some space ;) 16:36:21 mirek: ok, I'm for it as well 16:37:07 astron: uhm... btw, id love if you could write the reply, mirek :) 16:37:16 mirek: I will 16:37:26 mirek: as soon as we get through all the topics 16:37:42 mirek: I agree with the searchbox as well 16:38:33 mirek: about the close button: do you know what he means? 16:38:38 astron: i think the searchbox is a ui-minimalism thing ... although i am not sure what ui-minimalism means. 16:39:09 mirek: not really 16:39:38 mirek: ui-minimalism is about avoiding repetition and removing unnecessary elements 16:40:04 astron: for the close button, see his blog: http://npcdoomlibreoffice.wordpress.com/2012/07/09/template-dialog-ui-searching/search_3/ 16:40:32 mirek: oh 16:40:58 mirek: on second thought, having a button to trigger the searchbox is an extra step, so, yes, it is ui-minimalism 16:41:00 mirek: sorry 16:41:07 mirek: do we need the close button? 16:41:44 mirek: can't we make this dialog into a standalone window, so that gnome 3 puts a close button on it? 16:42:05 astron: i vote pro close button, since i am always annoyed by modal windows not getting a close button in the titlebar under gnome shell :) 16:42:22 astron: on the other hand it somewhat breaks the design, i do see that. 16:42:47 mirek: that's what I'm saying -- can't we make it so that gnome 3 puts a close button on it? 16:42:54 mirek: after all, it is a template manager on its own right 16:43:01 mirek: it probably shouldn't be a modal dialog 16:43:12 astron: making it non-modal should be enough 16:43:14 mirek: since it is disconnected from the modules 16:43:18 mirek: and stands on its own 16:43:19 astron: (for gnome shell at least) 16:43:23 mirek: yes, I agree 16:43:32 mirek: would you be ok with that? 16:44:04 astron: we should probably say whether the template chooser is a dialogue or a main window and then decide. 16:44:33 astron: it is weird hybrid somehow 16:44:39 mirek: alright: I would say it's a main window 16:44:44 mirek: it can stand on its own 16:45:01 mirek: and although this use case would be rare, the user can really only use it just to manage his templates 16:45:08 mirek: without going into any module 16:45:39 astron: but it can only be opened from another module, not individually 16:45:58 mirek: what about the start screen? 16:46:43 astron: can be opened individually 16:46:48 astron: (if you mean that) 16:46:51 reisi007: The new one 16:46:53 reisi007: ?? 16:47:09 mirek: I mean: the template manager has a special shortcut in there, on the same level as other modules 16:47:15 astron: hm, i think mirek means the Start Center 16:47:26 astron: ah, right 16:47:45 reisi007: I don't like the color 16:48:00 astron: .) 16:48:53 reisi007: I know that this is a personal thing, but just compare the menu (file - Edit - ...) of 3.5 and 3.6 16:48:57 mirek: btw, not sure if this is the case for all platforms, but on Ubuntu, Math doesn't have its own shortcut 16:49:16 astron: true that it has its own shortcut, but so does the file chooser 16:49:50 mirek: which could, theoretically, also evolve into an app in its own right 16:50:00 mirek: such as the one planned for Android 16:50:11 mirek: which certainly is a file manager in its own right 16:50:18 astron: its quite clear that the file chooser is just a utility window from my pov 16:50:28 mirek: right now, yes 16:50:49 mirek: it's also reflected in its name: file chooser, not manager 16:51:04 mirek: on the other hand, gnome documents is a file manager 16:51:12 mirek: and an app in its own right 16:51:23 mirek: even though it's theoretically not so different 16:51:44 reisi007: https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/RcRUwUcrhsBJ4V7hNMxZX1wuDgG3ewUenk9FLDMEkQ8?feat=directlink &lt;--- LibreOffice 3.6 seems "false" 16:52:00 reisi007: sorry "not a 100% windows program" 16:53:21 astron: reisi, this gets us a bit off-track here ... but do discuss this with mirek later on. im now happy that mirek & kendy did those changes as the new all-green stuff doesn't clash with the blue menu bars etc. 16:54:34 reisi007: +1 okay 16:55:22 mirek: astron: do you think we could qualify the template manager as its own window, then? 16:56:18 reisi007: mirek: If we do that, we IMHO must create a shortcut to only start the template manager (Or am I wrong) 16:56:25 astron: i am really not sure. 16:56:56 mirek: ok 16:56:56 astron: what i think would be worthwhile is integrating the template manager stuff directly into the start center 16:57:13 mirek: how so? 16:57:29 mirek: to be honest, I prefer having a template manager in a separate window 16:57:37 mirek: I don't like the start center much 16:57:58 astron: me neither. 16:58:03 reisi007: IMHO there is no space for a new item in the start center 16:58:55 mirek: to be honest, what I think would be ideal is replacing the start center with a simple file manager 16:59:06 mirek: like the Android app 16:59:06 reisi007: Wait a second - uploading screenshot 16:59:07 astron: but if the start center could be the main stage for templates i think that would really improve it. i would start by ripping out all the wasted space and then 16:59:38 astron: offering "New" "Open Recent" and "Templates" and give templates the most space 17:00:29 astron: although you likely couldnt really manage templates this way. 17:00:30 mirek: I would still prefer having a file manager instead 17:00:49 astron: okay. that was too ambitious for now anyway 17:00:56 reisi007: https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/P1BPZc-5J_5qUdXRDTxVmVwuDgG3ewUenk9FLDMEkQ8?feat=directlink 17:01:12 reisi007: Screenshot of MS Office 22003 installation 17:01:38 mirek: right 17:01:58 reisi007: IMHO THe template manager (As well as a non-existing "Dictionary Editor") would be great @ LibreOffice tools 17:02:19 mirek: however, we're not looking to ape MS Office 17:02:42 mirek: is there a folder on Windows called LibreOffice tools? 17:02:44 astron: sure, but reisi might be right anyway (for the template thingie at least) 17:02:54 astron: no folder there 17:02:57 reisi007: mirek: But they have grat ideas (sometimes). And it is somehow logically not to spam the folder 17:03:19 mirek: I agree that MS Office has some good ideas 17:03:29 astron: but we have a folder LibreOffice which contains Writer, Base, Calc ... LibreOffice (the start center) 17:03:37 mirek: however, I don't think we need a special folder to hold the template dialog 17:03:49 mirek: by itself 17:03:50 reisi007: The best thing: We could add more tools by the time ( Maybe a shortcut to start the macor editor) 17:03:57 astron: right, but a menu entry might actually be a good idea. 17:04:05 mirek: but there's not really a need for that, though 17:04:15 reisi007: mirek: No, only the macro editor would be senceless, but later... ;) 17:04:34 mirek: I can understand why a user might want to launch the templates first 17:04:45 mirek: after all, it is a good starting point for creating documents 17:04:54 mirek: I don't think we need to have it in a special tools folder 17:05:19 mirek: after all, we don't have the start center in a special folder, and it really is just a gateway to the various modules 17:05:32 astron: no, and we shouldnt have a tools folder, because you dont start a folder if you hvae less than three items 17:05:48 mirek: agreed 17:06:08 reisi007: Maybe adding a Option ) either to start the Start center or the template manager (which has templates like "Empty Writer sheet") 17:06:40 mirek: we might consider getting rid of the start center altogether 17:06:46 mirek: but adding more options isn't really an option 17:06:56 astron: i see what you did there :) 17:07:11 mirek: :) 17:08:11 astron: ugh ... the raison d eter for the start center is that mac users needed to see something when they closed the last document window (apparently) 17:08:24 mirek: d'etre, you mean 17:08:27 astron: ... i shouldnt try to flaunt my french 17:08:55 astron: and yes i do 17:09:18 mirek: btw, I've never understood why we don't split LibreOffice into modules on the Mac 17:09:24 mirek: it's inconsistent with Linux and Windows 17:09:51 mirek: MS Office and iWork are split into individual apps 17:10:00 reisi007: Hm, good starting point... Maybe we should put it on the dev list ;) 17:10:31 astron: ive never used it on the mac, so cant answer that. but then, i think the module splitting go away, as libo is just a single app anyway. 17:10:53 mirek: I actually like the module splitting 17:10:59 astron: we should rather emphasise the core brand, i.e. libo, instead of those weak subbrands like writer 17:10:59 reisi007: Me too 17:11:16 mirek: it makes it easier to switch windows 17:11:26 reisi007: Why "Writer"?? "*LibreOffice* Writer" 17:12:15 mirek: given that the LibreOffice logo appears on each of the module icons, I don't think that's a problem 17:12:17 astron: at the very least we should try to get sane and localisable names that describe what the app does like "LibreOffice Text Document[s]" 17:12:43 mirek: if we were to do that, I'd go for something short 17:12:47 astron: (which most linux distros do anyway 17:12:49 astron: ) 17:12:51 mirek: like "LibreOffice Doc" 17:13:06 reisi007: astron: +1 "LibreOffice Text" or mireks idea 17:13:14 mirek: to be honest, though, I don't think the subbrands are that weak 17:13:30 mirek: I've heard "Open up Writer" quite a few times 17:13:36 mirek: or "Open up Calc" 17:13:56 reisi007: writer: 577.000.000 17:13:58 mirek: it seems silly to say "Open up Text Document" or "LibreOffice Text Document" 17:14:06 mirek: and open up LibreOffice is just too generic 17:14:10 reisi007: word: 2.430.000.000 17:14:14 astron: start a new text document in libo? 17:14:47 mirek: still not as pretty or efficient as "Open up Writer" 17:15:05 astron: but translatable eg. into chinese 17:15:11 mirek: honestly, having everything in one app without modules separated adds an unnecessary step to launching these apps 17:15:30 mirek: and the modules are so different that it really doesn't make sense to refer to them with one name 17:15:44 mirek: just like Calligra has different names for its modules 17:16:01 mirek: (and given the amount of modules it has, I'm sure people would get lost without the module names) 17:16:02 astron: but they have different executables as well 17:16:32 astron: afaik theres no single executable called calligra 17:17:03 astron: but for us we only have "soffice[.exe]" 17:17:09 mirek: ux-implementation-level 17:17:34 astron: i know, but it leads to bugs like this: http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?id=0d2afe08450ad041afa21adf48d6c6d90e8cc4e0 17:17:49 mirek: the user doesn't see the difference of whether there are several modules in one application or several applications 17:18:29 mirek: tbh, I don't think "Exit" really belongs in the menubar anymore 17:18:43 astron: and people not understanding why their all their documents are gone not just the one that they worked with 17:19:25 astron: (if they had multiple libo windows open) 17:19:49 mirek: honestly, I think "Exit" should really only apply to the module 17:19:52 mirek: if that can be done 17:20:11 mirek: since the application shown in the launcher is in fact a module 17:20:31 mirek: on the Mac, though, Exit should apply to the whole app 17:20:33 astron: but still the point is users occasionally do notice that it really is just one app 17:21:53 mirek: for a regular user, a launcher icon = app 17:22:11 mirek: most people don't go snooping for what executables are actually running 17:22:33 astron: thats right, but when it crashes, they notice 17:22:39 mirek: and we shouldn't base the UI on the underlying technology if it goes against users' expectations 17:23:02 astron: in any case, lets treat the template manager as a main window, i guess. 17:23:11 mirek: alright 17:24:02 mirek: about the selection mode... 17:24:07 mirek: what did we decide in the end? 17:24:12 mirek: just improve the icon? 17:24:49 mirek: or get rid of selection mode altogether? 17:25:30 astron: no, keep it, add right click handling, imporve icon 17:25:38 mirek: alright 17:25:48 astron: okay, then the search bar? 17:26:07 mirek: I'd have a smaller version in the toolbar 17:26:36 mirek: agree? 17:26:38 astron: no. 17:26:59 mirek: why not? 17:27:19 astron: i'd say: move the selection mode into the toolbar and the search bar into document type selction area 17:27:29 astron: sounds like a saner ui hierarchy to me 17:28:05 mirek: actually, the searchbox should search only the templates of the selected filetype 17:28:15 mirek: (if "all" is selected, then it searches all filetypes) 17:28:28 astron: is there a good reason why it shouldnt search all types? 17:28:47 mirek: it would, but only under the "All" tab 17:28:53 astron: ah okay. 17:29:22 mirek: the selection mode button is at the top to be consistent with Gnome 17:30:03 mirek: alternatively, though, instead of the selection mode, we could simply use the long-tap gesture for selection 17:30:13 mirek: which is quite standard on mobile OS's 17:30:33 mirek: and, for mouse, keep the on-hover checkbox behavior 17:32:40 astron: do you know the gallery app from android 3.2? (possibly its only cyanogen, but i recently saw it on a samsung too) 17:33:19 mirek: I've seen screenshots 17:33:25 mirek: don't run anything with android, though 17:33:36 astron: damn ... i mean android 2.3 17:34:06 mirek: hm, that I haven't even seen screenshots of 17:34:07 mirek: what about it? 17:34:12 astron: anyway, long pressing there leads to a selection mode being enabled, and then you can just tap normally to mark everything 17:34:27 mirek: yes, that's what I was trying to say 17:34:50 mirek: that perhaps we don't really need a visible "Selection mode" button 17:35:06 mirek: since people using touch should be used to the long-press gesture 17:35:31 astron: okay, then maybe scrap it 17:35:41 mirek: alright, great :) 17:36:18 astron: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/87946285/libreoffice/screenshot-1342287284921.png 17:36:25 astron: screenshot from my phone... 17:36:56 mirek: ok 17:37:17 mirek: about template creation 17:37:46 astron: no, wait .... so, we have the search bar directly in the toolbar? 17:37:56 mirek: yes 17:38:06 mirek: search box rather than bar 17:38:22 astron: wont that look ugly together with the "..." button? 17:38:38 astron: (and give the wrong cues about how to use the ui, too) 17:39:04 mirek: what do you mean? 17:39:22 mirek: also, we probably won't use a "..." icon for the tools menu 17:39:40 mirek: but rather a wrench or a gear 17:39:47 mirek: which is more standard for gnome icons 17:39:54 mirek: I mean tango icons 17:40:38 mirek: I don't think it will be confusing, tbh 17:42:10 astron: basically it will look like (ascii art ahead...) [+] Create [→] Import                 [Search____] [...] 17:42:27 mirek: yes 17:42:40 mirek: though instead of "...", there will be a wrench or gear icon 17:43:00 astron: thus, it will (and gestalt principles will prove me right) look as if the search box and the wrench had somethign to do with each other 17:44:43 mirek: most applications that have tools button have it on the right 17:44:52 mirek: most applications with a search box feature it on the right as well 17:44:56 mirek: http://cloudfront.omgubuntu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Postler_004-500x347.png 17:45:09 mirek: here is how elementary's postler looks 17:45:12 mirek: I don't think it's really confusing 17:45:19 mirek: the searchbox is set apart visually 17:45:40 astron: your example doesnt relieve me of my concerns :) 17:46:13 astron: although the solution could be as simple as putting a separator between the two items 17:46:20 mirek: also, it's standard for advanced search options, if there are any, to have a button within the search box 17:47:08 astron: would you agree to the separator? 17:48:04 mirek: To be honest, I think a separator would be rather ugly and unnecessary, but if it's needed to move along with this topic, then I guess so 17:48:22 mirek: also, Chrome has a tools button right next to its searchbox/address bar 17:48:54 mirek: I don't think it's mistaken for an "advanced search options" button, though 17:49:07 astron: sure but chrome doesnt have a huge amount of space between the left and the right side of the toolbar 17:49:51 astron: [empty space, that is] 17:50:42 astron: (btw, hello manas.) 17:50:54 manas: hi guys! 17:51:12 mirek: hello 17:51:40 manas: am interested in designing, want to be a mute spectator in the meeting... pplease don't mind me 17:51:42 mirek: astron: and you think the way Postler does it is confusing? 17:51:51 mirek: manas: alright 17:52:11 astron: yes, a bit. 17:53:45 astron: also what would the wrench button sort by? 17:54:30 astron: (or rather: what sort options would it offer? only sort ascending/descending?) 17:55:06 mirek: you mean what kind of sorting options the dialog would offer? 17:55:10 mirek: that really depends on the developers 17:55:29 mirek: it could be as complex as that found in standard file managers 17:55:41 mirek: (sort by name, date, author, etc.) 17:55:48 astron: okay. 17:55:54 mirek: or there might not be any sorting options at all 17:56:10 astron: why is this not specced yet? 17:57:06 astron: (sorry if thats rude to ask like this, but the question still stands) 17:57:37 mirek: will do 17:58:06 mirek: I suppose name, date, and author options are enough for now 17:58:23 mirek: do you think even http://danrabbit.deviantart.com/art/Device-Sync-Plug-202833108?q=gallery%3Adanrabbit%2F35453680&amp;qo=3 is confusing? 17:58:43 mirek: or http://danrabbit.deviantart.com/gallery/35453680#/d3a8ver 18:00:57 mirek: how about having a space between the search box and the tools button instead of a visible separator? 18:01:16 astron: about the switchboard: i am not even sure why it needs a wrench menu. anyway, you can show me scores of those, and its good that elementary has a hig, but i still dont like it all that much 18:01:32 astron: okay, visible space: sounds like a good idea, actually 18:02:50 mirek: ok, how big 18:02:53 mirek: approximately? 18:03:34 astron: good question. we could centre it between the last icon on the left and the icon on the right.... but thatd look ugly 18:04:14 astron: we could probably make the space 3/4 of an icon's width... and it might look better 18:04:46 mirek: 18px? isn't that a bit much? 18:06:15 astron: lets let rafael play with it and pick something sensible. 18:06:16 manas: Firefox (in windows) keeps the addons 6 px apart 18:06:49 mirek: ok, thanks 18:07:00 mirek: 6px sounds good 18:07:25 mirek: but I'll let rafael play with it, nonetheless 18:07:46 mirek: anyway, about template creation 18:08:22 astron: 6 px is too little to be visible, and also, we should rather refrain from specifying it in pixels 18:08:58 mirek: 6px is quite visible: it's 1/4 of a larger icon 18:09:14 mirek: in any case, I'll let Rafael pick the size 18:09:19 astron: okay. 18:09:32 astron: moving on... 18:09:34 mirek: anyway, about the create template button 18:09:37 manas: guys, noob question... I had sent 3 mock-ups to Rafael, how can I share them with u 18:09:49 mirek: upload them to the wiki 18:09:52 astron: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Templates_and_documents_rework 18:10:01 manas: thanks 18:10:02 mirek: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design 18:10:09 mirek: upload them to your user page 18:10:18 mirek: rather than the templates and documents rework page 18:10:42 mirek: your user page should be at https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:&lt;username&gt; 18:11:01 mirek: so, I assume, https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Manas ? 18:11:01 astron: right, as we've already decided which direction to go into, its wiser to embed your mockups into your user page 18:11:16 manas: thanks, are PDF acceptable? I read that you guys take PNG, SVG etc.. 18:11:40 astron: the wiki cant make thumbnails from pdfs 18:12:15 mirek: but you can upload them nonetheless, if it's impossible for you to make a PNG or an SVG (or a JPG, if you're working with a bitmap) 18:12:54 astron: so png (good thumbnails) + svg (useful for others to play with, but flaky results with the thumbnails) is best 18:13:10 astron: still, as mirek says you can upload pdfs 18:13:47 manas: thanks 18:14:29 astron: so, mirek: template creation button... 18:14:43 mirek: yes... 18:15:14 mirek: ideally, it should open up a new file 18:15:41 mirek: and its save dialog should point to a template button and have the template filetype preselected 18:15:52 mirek: saving it should automatically add it to the template dialog 18:16:06 mirek: if that's impossible, then we probably shouldn't have that button 18:16:06 astron: well, we already have a toolbar icon for save as template 18:16:40 astron: so maybe we could have a special mode where the normal save button would be replaced by this save as template button 18:17:18 mirek: and does this button add the template to the template dialog? 18:17:28 mirek: or does it have to be imported? 18:17:45 astron: it just opens save as with the right file type. 18:18:15 astron: if you save in the right directory, the template manager will load the new template too 18:18:30 astron: (afaik) 18:19:03 mirek: is the right directory preselected? 18:19:20 mirek: (i.e. shown in the "Save as Template" dialog?) 18:19:22 astron: let me check 18:20:07 astron: its actually better than i thought... 18:20:22 astron: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/87946285/libreoffice/Screenshot%20from%202012-07-14%2020%3A19%3A55.png 18:20:39 astron: thats what the save button opens 18:21:06 mirek: I guess this would have to be updated as well, though 18:21:22 mirek: or perhaps not 18:21:24 astron: sure, but it is a good start 18:21:33 mirek: yes, it is 18:21:39 astron: rather replaced than updated you mean? 18:21:59 mirek: I guess 18:22:52 mirek: however, there would still be a problem, even with this button 18:23:10 astron: okay 18:23:14 mirek: suppose the user goes with "File &gt; Save" or "File &gt; Save as..." 18:23:33 astron: right, it would have to be customised further 18:23:53 mirek: should we get rid of the file saving functionality in this mode, then? 18:24:10 astron: and we'd need to have something like "LibreOffice Writer Template" in the titlebar 18:24:21 mirek: I'll be right back 18:24:25 astron: sure. 18:29:25 mirek: sorry, online webchat failed me again 18:29:55 astron: well, ill upload the log then. 18:30:01 mirek: great 18:31:05 mirek: anyway, I'll ask rafael if he could create this special mode 18:31:18 mirek: if not, then we won't have a create template button 18:31:39 astron: okay, so i think completely getting rid of saving a file is not practicable, as users might not want their template to be located in the default folder. 18:31:48 astron: right, do that. 18:32:35 mirek: astron: how would you propose to solve that, then? 18:33:57 mirek: I mean, saving the template to a custom location 18:34:04 astron: wait no... disable the usual saving functionality but add something like "save elsewhere" to the template saver 18:34:20 astron: (which would then trigger the normal save dialogue) 18:34:36 mirek: sounds good 18:34:43 astron: or is that too complicated? (although i thin kthe use case is rather a minority one) 18:34:47 mirek: can we move on? 18:34:57 mirek: I think it's good enough 18:35:13 mirek: alright 18:35:15 astron: okay, one more thing about the template dialogue, id like to discuss 18:35:30 mirek: yes? 18:35:39 astron: that is the buttons on the top: they look separated 18:35:51 astron: (again, see rafaels screenshot) 18:36:24 mirek: right 18:36:33 mirek: I'm not sure if/how that can be fixed 18:36:37 astron: since libo won't offer a ui element "selector buttons" would it make sense to display tabs instead? 18:37:46 mirek: I assume VCL doesn't have a losenge button 18:37:52 manas: I think check-boxes are the perfect candidate here 18:38:11 astron: "losenge"..? whats that? 18:39:08 mirek: I think that's what it's called 18:39:25 mirek: something odd is up with my connection 18:39:38 mirek: I can't access any other sites 18:39:44 astron: manas: that would be rather an abuse of checkboxes 18:39:58 mirek: this chat still seems to work, though, at least 18:40:05 astron: weird... 18:40:15 astron: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lozenge 18:40:19 mirek: checkboxes really wouldn't work in this case, I agree 18:40:43 astron: "A lozenge (◊), often referred to as a diamond, is a form of rhombus" 18:41:46 mirek: maybe I'm wrong 18:41:54 mirek: I just remember it refernced to as such 18:42:38 astron: http://www.tuaw.com/2007/06/24/mac-101-the-lozenge-button/ 18:42:43 mirek: oh, nevermind, I got it confused with Mac's "hide toolbar" button 18:42:48 astron: right 18:43:10 astron: i think in gtk theyre called selector buttons 18:43:26 mirek: ok 18:43:43 mirek: not what I was thinking of, but fine just the same 18:44:07 mirek: anyway, do you think VCL doesn't support them? 18:44:35 mirek: I guess I'll ask rafael about this 18:45:03 astron: i think theyre unsupported, yes. essentially, i think they werent used much until apple introduced them as another visualisation of tabs 18:45:20 astron: and theyre likely not called selector buttons ... 18:45:28 mirek: right 18:45:29 astron: .. i just opened up glade 18:46:50 mirek: ok 18:46:58 mirek: I'll talk to rafael about it 18:47:14 mirek: do you think he would be able to implement VCL support for it? 18:47:22 mirek: or should we go with buttons for now? 18:47:26 astron: i have no idea. 18:48:08 mirek: ok, I'll ask that too 18:48:10 astron: (if he would be able to implement this – however, keep in mind, that eg. on windows this is not a native ui element) 18:48:51 astron: how do you feel about text links surrounded by a frame? that should get us somewhere close? 18:49:11 astron: (preferably without underlining) 18:49:23 mirek: there'd be a problem with the clickable area 18:49:31 astron: youre right 18:49:47 mirek: I think buttons are the second best for now, I guess 18:49:56 astron: alternatively, cutting off the edges of regular buttons might work 18:50:05 astron: youre probably right on that one 18:50:08 mirek: ok, I'll ask 18:50:20 mirek: anything else with the dialog? 18:50:39 astron: not if you dont have any other complaints 18:50:52 mirek: nope, I don't think so 18:51:17 manas: i think we should show the number of available templates 18:51:33 manas: based on the search as well as the buttons selected 18:52:02 manas: i.e. as a total count 18:52:12 mirek: is there a use case for that? 18:53:38 mirek: i.e. in which cases would it be useful for the user to know the number of templates he has? 18:53:56 mirek: otherwise, we might be unnecessarily cluttering up the UI for no good reason 18:53:56 manas: don't know... 18:54:03 astron: we could brag with how many templates the web repository has. other than that i dont see anything 18:54:19 manas: i was thinking from a search results page perspective 18:55:11 mirek: I don't think it would be very helpful, tbh 18:55:23 astron: that makes a bit of sense, but still, id rather exclude that for now 18:55:29 mirek: and it would be a pain trying to fit it into the UI 18:55:50 mirek: can we move on? 18:55:57 astron: okay. 18:56:12 manas: ok 18:56:26 mirek: about the About dialog 18:56:34 astron: yup. 18:56:44 mirek: can I contact the original developer? 18:56:54 mirek: about what we could do with it? 18:56:55 astron: its really a bit late now 18:57:04 astron: but sure, why not 18:57:14 mirek: so we have settled on a solution, then? 18:57:18 astron: but we need the answer before tomorrow 18:57:28 astron: (or at least monday) 18:57:35 mirek: alright 18:57:48 mirek: what have we settled on up to now? 18:57:56 mirek: remove the graphic? 18:58:35 astron: currently, there is no background in there, but if i get to it, ill put the old one back in. 18:59:00 mirek: ok 18:59:28 astron: (without the gradient, though, because that wouldnt fit at all.) 18:59:43 mirek: alright 19:00:04 mirek: and, lastly, about "Progress" 19:00:17 mirek: I guess it's not shipping with 3.6? 19:00:37 mirek: also, since you don't like the gray version, could you at least suggest a colored version? 19:00:43 astron: it wouldnt be a problem if it were ready. 19:00:58 mirek: (I actually like the gray version) 19:00:59 astron: uhm, any colour would do for me, blue..? 19:01:24 astron: but the grey doesnt work (at least for me) 19:01:36 astron: purple? 19:01:54 astron: (although purple is not a good colour to signify progress) 19:02:02 astron: golden/yellow? 19:02:27 mirek: I mean, could you upload a version with that color 19:02:46 mirek: I'd be fine with any sort of color, though not every shade 19:04:00 astron: we want slide 2, right? 19:04:05 mirek: yes 19:08:54 astron: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/87946285/libreoffice/Screenshot%20from%202012-07-14%2021%3A08%3A33.png 19:09:00 astron: how do you feel about this? 19:09:44 mirek: it's alright 19:10:00 astron: (i just noticed though, that the masterpage of this template feels a little ugly, also note that the text in the header is custom 19:10:01 astron: ) 19:10:56 mirek: can that be fixed? 19:12:18 mirek: if so, I wouldn't object to it being included 19:12:26 mirek: although blue does feel a bit overused 19:12:36 mirek: in the current template selection 19:12:40 mirek: but it's ok 19:12:51 astron: recreating this template isn't actually hard. what cant be fixed though is the fact that the area for the header is actually too short to hold our "click to edit text" line 19:13:15 astron: what do you think would be better than blue? 19:14:04 mirek: any of the colors you listed 19:14:17 mirek: purple, golden, orange, red 19:14:33 mirek: brown 19:15:12 mirek: any of these colors 19:15:18 mirek: or gray, of course 19:16:57 astron: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/87946285/libreoffice/Screenshot%20from%202012-07-14%2021%3A16%3A39.png 19:17:00 astron: a red version 19:18:30 astron: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/87946285/libreoffice/Screenshot%20from%202012-07-14%2021%3A17%3A53.png 19:18:32 astron: brown 19:18:37 manas: the footer text should also be in ivory to make to more readable 19:18:48 mirek: the brown feels nice 19:19:03 mirek: I agree that the footer text should be light 19:19:03 manas: my pervious comment was for "red" 19:19:22 astron: i like it best too, but i guess people will hate me for doing brown templates 19:19:46 mirek: orange, then? 19:19:47 astron: and yes, ill adapt the text a the bottom 19:19:58 astron: no, orange us frgly 19:20:01 mirek: the red feels a too aggressive 19:20:11 mirek: I vote for the brown 19:20:20 astron: me too, i guess. 19:20:31 manas: do we have a limit? why not add all... 19:20:57 astron: i dont think adding ten templates that look essentially the same would be a good idea. 19:21:06 mirek: I agree 19:21:19 manas: yes 19:21:23 astron: okay, is that it for today? 19:21:23 mirek: we want each template to be unique in its own right 19:21:32 mirek: I think so 19:21:48 astron: great, then ill go out and hunt for sth to eat... 19:21:53 mirek: I assume you'll push Progress, right? 19:21:57 mirek: and put up the log? 19:22:01 astron: yes. 19:22:02 manas: bye guys, have a nice weekend 19:22:11 astron: thanks, you too. 19:22:14 astron: bye. 19:22:22 mirek: bye
 * i gave a summary about the splash/branding stuff &amp; people finding it too green.