Design/Meetings/2013-11-03

Topics

 * Start Center
 * Triforce
 * Template

Attendees

 * ahmad
 * ljelly_
 * LLyaudet
 * mirek2

Log
[12:00]  Hi [12:00] hi guys [12:02]  Shall we wait for more people to join ? [12:03] yup [12:03] let's wait until 05 [12:03]  k [12:03] LLyaudet: any topic you came here for? [12:04] anything in particular you'd like to discuss? [12:04]  I mainly wanted to see how it goes and maybe talk about my feature request for the upperleft corner of calc [12:05]  I looked at the wiki conecerning start center of 4.2 also [12:06] ok [12:06] I had a cursory look at your Calc proposal -- it seems nice [12:07]  thanks :) [12:07] ok, let's get started [12:08] ahmd: are you with us? [12:08]  I didn't found Mateusz proposal in the wiki [12:08] it's on the mailing list [12:08] I should add my proposal to the wiki as well [12:09]  I saw your proposal in the wiki [12:09]  but maybe you updated it ? [12:09] yes [12:10] the wiki one is just a wireframe [12:10] there's a high-fidelity version on the ml [12:10]  ok so I should take a look on the ml [12:11] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/3/38/Mirek2-start.png [12:11] and mateusz's proposal: http://i.imgur.com/RUfcMlw.jpg [12:11] http://i.imgur.com/KWpS7tu.jpg [12:12]  thanks [12:13] <@ahmd> hi [12:13]  I think that Mateusz's proposal looks better [12:13]  hi [12:13] :) ok [12:13]  but the sidebar on the right seems odd to me [12:14] so, there are several things the proposals differ on [12:14] a) native UI elements [12:14] which we'll have to use [12:15] that's the tab bar, the title bar, etc. [12:15] there's toolbar vs. sidebar [12:15]  sidebar on the left is an option ? [12:16] yes, but it might look strange in relation to the tab bar [12:16] if it's kept green [12:16]  It's kind of Open File Menu option I must admit [12:17] that's the point [12:17] <LLyaudet> indeed with the tab bar It would be strange [12:17] I wish we had Kendy here... [12:18] <@ahmd> let me see if he's around! [12:18] he doesn't appear to be on libreoffice-dev... [12:19] <@ahmd> ok, ping him with an email.. [12:19] <@ahmd> he'll join if he's free [12:20] just did [12:21] let's discuss the calc proposal right now [12:21] it'd be better to have Kendy here for the SC [12:21] <@ahmd> can i've proposal's link please.. [12:21] https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=66472 [12:21] <@ahmd> thanks [12:22] http://lyaudet.olympe.in/proofOfConceptTriforce_eng.html [12:23] on closer inspection, I'm not sure whether this is needed [12:24] can't we just put row and column commands in the X zone's contextual menu? [12:24] <@ahmd> brilliant idea... [12:25] LLyaudet: or am I missing something? [12:25] <LLyaudet> the contextual menu will be huge then [12:25] <LLyaudet> there are 4 types of actions [12:25] <LLyaudet> row, columns, row+columns, cells [12:26] yup... [12:26] <LLyaudet> I think it's clearer with a part of the triforce for row, one for column and one for row+columns, cells [12:27] <LLyaudet> because then no action is repeated in a contextual menu [12:27] <@ahmd> mirek2: how about asking mmeeks to join the discussion? [12:28] <LLyaudet> example unhide row+columns, unhide rows, unhide columns [12:28] ahmd: not sure if I want to bother him [12:28] and don't know if he's involved with the SC at all [12:28] I would say he probably isn't [12:29] LLyaudet: what's the advantage of one for columns and one for rows [12:29] <LLyaudet> mouse distance [12:29] you'd get the exact same commands as when clicking on a row/column header [12:29] <@ahmd> he's not involved, but he's following the development closely with kohi [12:29] ahmd: it's up to you [12:30] <@ahmd> ok [12:30] <LLyaudet> with row headers and columns headers that's 5 clicks [12:30] <LLyaudet> with triforce that's 2 clciks [12:31] but it could be 2 clicks if we just add a contextual menu to the X zone, right? [12:31] <LLyaudet> yes but mouse distance is bigger [12:31] <LLyaudet> because of a bigger contextual menu [12:32] <LLyaudet> with a small mouse distance in the triforce you select a kind of actions [12:32] but the contextual menu would be the same as that of the top left region of the triforce, wouldn't it? [12:32] <LLyaudet> no topleft would be row+column and cells only [12:33] <@ahmd> mmeeks won't be around, last seen 16hrs ago! [12:33] <@ahmd> if forgot it's Sunday today.... [12:33] <LLyaudet> by row +column I don't mean row action + column action [12:33] mirek2: right -- that's what I meant as well [12:33] for the X zone [12:34] <LLyaudet> I mean action that can be simultaneously applied to row and columns [12:34] yup -- so do I :) [12:34] <LLyaudet> ok :) [12:35] <LLyaudet> so the contextual menu of topleft triforce is not the same as contextual menu for X zone [12:35] no, it would be [12:35] (currently, there is no contextual menu for the X zone) [12:35] <LLyaudet> I should have extended my proof of Concept to make clearer that point [12:36] <LLyaudet> there is 3 unhide : [12:36] <LLyaudet> in topleft triforce you just show unhide bith rows and columns -> 1 action [12:36] <LLyaudet> in X zone you must display 3 actions [12:37] <LLyaudet> *both [12:37] what I'm asking is: if the X zone had the same contextual menu as the menu for the top left of the triforce, would there still be any advantage in having the triforce? [12:37] <LLyaudet> yes [12:38] <LLyaudet> if you want to unhide rows only [12:38] <LLyaudet> with X zone -> left click then right click rows headers [12:38] <LLyaudet> with triforce -> right click down triforce [12:39] ok, I see [12:39] the disadvantages I see to that are: [12:40] <LLyaudet> That's good to explain that. I'll add it to the feature request [12:40] == ljelly_ [3aad297b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.58.173.41.123] has joined #libreoffice-design [12:40] hi lj [12:40] <LLyaudet> X zone with contextual menu is a good option but not the better [12:40] hi ljelly_ [12:40] <ljelly_> hi is this libreoffice design irc? [12:40] <LLyaudet> hi [12:40] yup [12:41] <@ahmd> yes [12:41] we're discussing https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=66472 right now [12:41] anyway, as I was saying, the disadvantages I see are: [12:42] a) as it's only relevant for contextual menus, the division of the X zone could be potentially confusing... [12:43] I assume any part of the triforce selects all cells, right? [12:44] <LLyaudet> Yes it selects but only the topleft part has cell actions in contextual menu [12:45] <LLyaudet> leftclicking any part of the triforce is the same as leftclicking X zone [12:46] <LLyaudet> thus there is no regression [12:46] yes -- I'm saying that adding separators could be potentially confusing for the user [12:46] but I suppose that's solveable with a good design [12:46] <ljelly_> it would probably be confusing. [12:46] <LLyaudet> I had the opposite opinions at work when I presented that idea [12:47] this is something that should be tested, really [12:47] <@ahmd> i don't think it's confusing [12:47] maybe it won't be confusing [12:47] it's not confusing when you know what it's for [12:48] <LLyaudet> the small triangles were intuitive to my coworkers [12:48] you didn't tell them what they were for before asking their opinion? [12:48] <LLyaudet> they told it was clear it was selecting rows or columns [12:49] <ljelly_> I'm not 100% sure what its for. [12:49] <@ahmd> it's just three actions [12:49] <ljelly_> but. [12:49] <@ahmd> the user will get it fast [12:49] <ljelly_> maybe if you a dialog can be displayed when the mouse is hovered with the correct function could eliminate the confusion. [12:49] <LLyaudet> I told them but they told me it was natural [12:49] ok [12:50] ahmd: how hard would this be to implement? [12:50] <@ahmd> as a function, it's easy [12:50] it'd be good to test this out in context [12:50] <@ahmd> but how are we going to draw that... [12:50] <@ahmd> in code [12:51] potential solution to the problem: show a contextual toolbar on single-click [12:52] <@ahmd> yes this is easy to do [12:52] (I was talking about the confusion problem, not the drawing problem) [12:53] <@ahmd> aha .... [12:54] <LLyaudet> If you accept my proposal, I wanted to propose this development to students. We have apprentices in my company that would be interested in coding that. [12:54] LLyaudet: oh, in that case, sure :) [12:54] <LLyaudet> Great :) [12:55] but if it turns out that it's counterproductive for some reason (based on user testing), I hope you won't mind a) refining the feature until it's good, or b) having the feature removed [12:56] <LLyaudet> Of course. My goal is to improve the UX not make it worse :) [12:56] great :) [12:57] do you need graphic design for the feature? [12:57] <LLyaudet> Yes I would definitely appreciate some help for the graphic design :) [12:57] (I was thinking about losing the gloss of the bars anyway) [12:58] alright, I'll make a post to the mailing list and start a whiteboard [12:58] <LLyaudet> thanks :) [12:58] would you be willing to change the background of the header bars in general? [12:59] <LLyaudet> I didn't thought about it. [12:59] the gloss would probably not sit well with the triforce, plus it looks dated [13:00] <LLyaudet> I agree it's better if we make a design that is well-themed with the headers [13:00] so you'd be willing to retheme the headers? [13:01] just so I know the scope of the design proposals [13:02] <LLyaudet> at least the triforce must be in the same theme as the headers, so maybe it will need to retheme the headers. I don't really know right now. [13:02] <LLyaudet> It can be done in two phases. [13:03] == ljelly_ [3aad297b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.58.173.41.123] has quit [Quit: Page closed] [13:03] <LLyaudet> First a triforce with the current theme. Then an improved theme for headers and triforce. [13:04] ok [13:04] <LLyaudet> The first step should give us feedback on the triforce. [13:05] sounds good [13:05] <LLyaudet> Then we will know if it's needed to slightly increase the height of the columns headers in the next step. [13:06] alright, let's move on to a different topic [13:06] <LLyaudet> ok [13:07] you don't need a design for the triforce right away, right? [13:07] you can start hacking without a design? [13:08] <LLyaudet> Yes of course. Moreover I may have a contest for students on the design with a prize :) [13:09] for students? [13:09] <LLyaudet> I'll exactly what I need in the next weeks [13:09] <LLyaudet> *know* [13:09] ok, post to the mailing list then [13:09] or we can chat about it here again [13:10] so, next topic... [13:10] <@ahmd> default template? [13:10] sounds good [13:10] what's the progress so far? [13:10] <@ahmd> ok, i've finished coding most of the style [13:11] <@ahmd> remaining is the spaces between headers and paragraphs [13:11] ok [13:12] <@ahmd> also i forgot earlier to change placeholder color... [13:12] what's the reasoning behind that, btw? [13:12] <@ahmd> the color isn't suitable [13:12] why is that? [13:13] <@ahmd> i forgot the name of the color, just a moment [13:14] <@ahmd> color cayan 4 [13:15] <@ahmd> somebody complained about it in the mailing list [13:15] oh, ok [13:15] anything you'd like feedback on in regards to the default theme? [13:16] (I plan to give feedback when it's coded and pushed) [13:16] <@ahmd> headers sizes now are 130% 115% 100% 85% 85% 75% 75% [13:16] what's 100% [13:16] ? [13:16] <@ahmd> these are web css sizes [13:16] <@ahmd> which is the code is using [13:17] 100% =12pt? isn't that too small for heading 3? [13:17] <@ahmd> no it's 14 [13:17] <LLyaudet> is there a screenshot of a sample document with default theme? [13:17] <@ahmd> it's 12 for the serif and 14 for sans [13:17] <@ahmd> i'll push the code sometime tomorrow [13:18] <@ahmd> we'll have plenty of time to make changes [13:18] why is that? [13:18] isn't that unnecessarily inconsistent? [13:18] looking forward to it [13:18] <@ahmd> inconsistent with? [13:18] 12 for serif, 14 for sans [13:18] inconsistent with each other [13:18] <@ahmd> the base size for each font [13:19] <@ahmd> i'm talking about liberation [13:20] will replacing sans with serif in a theme shrink the font size? [13:20] I feel like the base size should be 12pt for both... [13:21] <@ahmd> that's how Liberation designers did it [13:22] how does that affect font replacement, though? [13:22] <@ahmd> i've to test it [13:22] if you use Liberation Serif for headings, does 100% suddenly mean 12pt? [13:23] <@ahmd> yes [13:23] <@ahmd> it's not doing that...! [13:23] <@ahmd> sorry, then no [13:24] <@ahmd> there is something i'm missing here!! [13:25] so... 100% for body text != 100% for headings? I'm confused... [13:26] <@ahmd> OK it looks that it measures based on the parent style, not font base size! [13:26] <@ahmd> if the parent is 14 then 100% for the child is 14... [13:26] <@ahmd> and so on [13:26] that makes sense [13:27] in that case, perhaps the parent for headings could be 12 [13:27] <@ahmd> but that's not the way it should work [13:27] as it's easier to divide [13:27] <@ahmd> it should be based on the font base size [13:27] no, that would make it more confusing [13:28] <@ahmd> that's how browsers work... [13:28] with CSS, 100% = 12pt [13:28] unless there's a parent [13:28] in which case 100% is 100% of the parent font size [13:29] that's the way LibreOffice should work as well, IMHO [13:29] <@ahmd> ok... then [13:30] <@ahmd> do you build LO at home or you download nightly builds? [13:30] I build it [13:30] <@ahmd> ok i'll ping you when i push it [13:31] ok, sounds good [13:31] <@ahmd> this will help also for more feedback [13:31] <@ahmd> then i'll start making a proposal for the whole styling system [13:32] <@ahmd> since i'm already involved with the code now... [13:32] <@ahmd> can you start a wiki page for that? [13:32] perhaps you start it? [13:32] I'm not sure what a whole new styling system entails [13:33] <@ahmd> making it more user friendly ... [13:33] there's a template at https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Whiteboard_Template [13:33] <@ahmd> thanks will start a new page for it [13:34] <@ahmd> and i'll update the default template page [13:34] ahmd: sure, but can you remove styles? can you add styles? can you change the ODF standard to use CSS instead of what it uses now? (probably not) etc. [13:35] (that was in response to what all it entails; nevermind that) [13:35] sounds good :) [13:35] any other topics? [13:36] I'll see if we can have a chat on the start center during the week... [13:36] it'd be really good to have Kendy there [13:37] <@ahmd> how about setting a time within the week to discuss with him? [13:38] <LLyaudet> I will probably not be able to join if it's during the week. [13:38] I'll try to do that [13:39] <LLyaudet> I'll post any interesting opinion on the start center on the ml [13:39] please do [13:39] and please discuss the individual parts [13:39] <LLyaudet> ok [13:39] great :) [13:41] <@ahmd> ok, i've to leave know... [13:41] <@ahmd> bye :) [13:41] <LLyaudet> Thanks for the meeting Bye :) [13:41] see you [13:41] I'll post the log