Design/Meetings/2012-06-23


 * Date/Time: 2012-06-16, 1600 UTC (the time below is 2 hours ahead of UTC)
 * Location: IRC, channel #libreoffice-design

Attendees

 * AlexanderW
 * Astron
 * Mirek2

Tasks
Mirek2
 * Ask Michael for a CC0 license statement.
 * Tell the authors of progress, metropolis, clean inspiration, lush green, sunset, typography red, glibo, and bright blue to sign the license statement.

Log
 [18:00] hi astron [18:00] hui [18:01] (both will and mirek) [18:01] non-update from the ESC call: michael hasn't contacted the Gnome authors yet; it's on his to-do list for this week, though [18:02] okay, thanks [18:02] but, anyway, we can forget about the icons then, right? [18:02] (for 3.6, i mean) [18:02] == alexander_ [~alexander@dslb-094-220-226-029.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #libreoffice-design [18:02] hi alex [18:02] I guess [18:02] hi alex [18:02]  hi everyone [18:03] any progress on templates? [18:03] (I haven't checked yet) [18:03]  Yeah, in most cases the size does shrink, I can give some examples [18:04]  Metropolis: 37 kB instead of 1,3 MB [18:04] can you send something round already or are they in git already? [18:04] great [18:04] (and yes, great!) [18:05]  LushGreen: 83 Kb, now 85 [18:05]  I guess the many gradients make it that big [18:06]  e.g. Hexagons was 600 kB, now 18 MB :/ [18:06] hm, but as long as its under 100 kb its not too terrible [18:06]  so there the png would definitely be preferable [18:06] what happened with hexagons? [18:06]  it cantains several 100 000 polygons [18:06] yes, a png would be preferrable with hexagons [18:07] alex, you could tile small hexagon pngs and then put a gradient on top of it, i guess – that would have the advantage of beinf able to scale better [18:08]  when the ratio of a slide changes? [18:08] for instance [18:09]  But then the png would be resized, too, I think [18:10] dont know... [18:10]  I can try it [18:11] cool... otherwise just stick to the current stuff [18:11] have you already renamed cubalibre? [18:12]  I think I'll need to talk to Bjoern regarding this since the name must also be changed in several other places [18:13] ah okay, do you have something in mind? [18:13]  Do you have an idea what would be appropriate [18:13]  Caribbean? [18:14]  Caribean Sunset maybe? [18:14] i think i am pro idea 2. [18:14] oh, wait, ... no it still starts with c, making it the first in the list [18:15] – therefore default which petr didnt want because of the tilted fonts [18:15] uhm maybe sunset in the carribean? [18:15] then [18:16] that's a bit too long [18:16] <alexander_> agree [18:16] <alexander_> whats 'südsee' in english? [18:16] South Seas according to leo [18:17] Photo Sunset? [18:18] just Sunset? [18:18] i guess... [18:18] <alexander_> alright, Sunset it is [18:19] okay. any more templates stuff? [18:20] there was that problem with Russian localization [18:20] the devs seem to have took it upon themselves to fix [18:20] not sure whether there's been any progress in that area made since thursday... [18:21] <alexander_> I guess the text language would need to be set as EN instead of DE or something [18:21] right. there were two proposed solutions, one was that alex set everything to en-US, the other was caolans script [18:22] does setting the language to EN solve all the problems? [18:22] afaik, even the devs have no idea if it does anything at all. its a try and error thing [18:23] :) [18:24] in any case, consult Caolan before we have the final template selection [18:25] okay. [18:25] (well, i wont do it, i guess) [18:25] <alexander_> OK [18:25] do we want to vote on the templates at https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Call_for_Templates ? [18:26] among us four? [18:26] perhaps... [18:27] theoretically, we could leave Alex's templates for 3.6 and focus on templates for 3.7 [18:27] okay, proposal: everyone can split up 10 points between all of the icons? [18:28] how about selecting based on size, generalness, and usability first? [18:29] for example, I doubt GLibo would suit many users as it is [18:29] I'm not sure how three notes would be useful for serious presentations [18:30] etc. [18:31] <alexander_> Astron, do you know how other templates for e.g. Writer or Calc would be handled? [18:32] <alexander_> regarding the inclusion into LO [18:32] I don't think they'll be included for 3.6 [18:32] maybe once the new template picker comes [18:32] that's just maybe [18:33] (letter wizard etc) [18:33] no, they wont [18:33] <alexander_> of course not [18:33] (if thats what you mean) [18:33] <alexander_> I'm not sure who it was, but someone on the mailing list said that those won't be bundled [18:33] <alexander_> rather be available as 'DLC' [18:33] =downloadable content? [18:33] <alexander_> yes [18:33] okay [18:34] should we go through the templates at https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Call_for_Templates? [18:34] have a vote among us for each template, based on usability and generalness of template [18:35] then choose between the ones that we unanimously vote for [18:35] <alexander_> okay [18:35] cant we just lay down the criteria and then split up the ten points as i porposed? [18:35] <alexander_> which 10 points? [18:36] well, everybody gets ten points and can split them up, we then take the ones with most points [18:36] overal [18:36] l [18:36] discussing each template might find problems with each [18:36] would result in a more educated vote [18:37] okay. [18:37] blueprint plans... [18:37] yes [18:37] it has several masterpages [18:37] * a bit busy for my taste [18:37] <alexander_> I like the content slide [18:37] yes [18:38] let's judge it from a technical viewpoint first [18:38] alex, I remember you said something about not being able to ship templates with multiple masters [18:38] is that right? [18:38] <alexander_> That was AOO [18:38] oh, okay [18:39] it has 260 kb, which is passable [18:39] <alexander_> I'd be cool if LO could integrate that functionality, but atm we're looking for single masterpages, I guess [18:40] ok [18:40] so just the content masterpage here [18:40] <alexander_> yes [18:40] it's not so bad [18:40] I don't think it's that busy [18:40] okay [18:40] no, the title slide is a bit busy though [18:40] though I do prefer minimalistic templates [18:40] <alexander_> I personally would go for a more vibrant blue [18:41] would we ship the title slide, then? [18:41] <alexander_> Probably not [18:41] ok [18:42] otherwise, it's usable, so it's certainly eligible for voting [18:42] let's leave that for until we go through all the slides [18:42] okay [18:42] next up: bright blue [18:42] how large is the file alex? [18:42] <alexander_> Should the puzzle piece stay? [18:43] <alexander_> one sec [18:43] to be honest, I think I prefer it without the puzzle piece [18:43] <alexander_> 22 kB [18:43] oh, cool [18:44] and it uses liberation sans, I guess [18:44] by defaul [18:44] t [18:44] i personally don't like arrangement behind the slide headline much ... it's so asymmetric [18:45] about the puzzle piece, ive no opinion [18:46] alex, thoughts? [18:46] <alexander_> I think the assymetry attracts the view a bit, IIRC [18:47] <alexander_> But I agree, the puzzle piece is pretty generic and not really needed [18:47] I'm fine with the asymetry myself, but wouldn't mind if the blue bar stretched across the whole page either [18:48] hm,,, my problem is actually that there is such a large blue margin between the border and the start of the text [18:48] ie. |     Headline [18:48] so start the blue rectangle some pixels in? [18:48] or move the text more to the left? [18:49] the first one [18:49] alex, would that be possible? [18:49] alex, can you try maybe if that makes it better or worse? [18:49] <alexander_> Moving the headline text box more to the leaft? [18:49] <alexander_> ah, no [18:50] no, make the blue rectangle shorter [18:50] no, move the blue rectangle more to the right [18:52] <alexander_> http://ubuntuone.com/4NCWhymaJnmk9bEg1NJcVf [18:53] <alexander_> Like this? Or should the margin at the left and the top be the same? [18:54] left and top same sounds good [18:56] <alexander_> Alright [18:56] <alexander_> next one? [18:56] sure [18:56] clean inspiration: i like [18:57] there might be a problem with some layouts [18:57] <alexander_> why? [18:58] since the template puts rectangles where the title should be [18:58] as I understand it, all layouts will use the same master: is that correct? [18:58] <alexander_> yes [18:59] theoretically, that could rule out all the templates that put the title in a special rectangle [18:59] since they don't work with the centered title layout [18:59] ...? [19:00] <alexander_> Title only, you mean? [19:00] this is one has two slides, the second one should be good [19:00] <alexander_> yes, the second one is alright [19:00] @alex: title + subtitle, yes [19:01] <alexander_> We'll probably only include masterpages that can be used with any layout [19:02] but that will rule out all the ones that have a rectangle behind the title [19:02] including Bright blue [19:02] unless I misunderstand [19:03] <alexander_> If such arectangle is at the top the slide can still be used to display content [19:05] <alexander_> 'Centered text woul be the only layout that wouldn't look good [19:05] yes, that's what I mean [19:05] <alexander_> ah [19:05] I guess that's not a big issue, though... [19:05] no, hopefully not. [19:06] I originally thought there were more [19:06] <alexander_> I don't know how often that's being used, but the odds are 1 : 11 [19:06] :) [19:06] right [19:06] alright, clean inspiration seems good, I guess [19:06] move on? [19:06] <alexander_> yes [19:06] Cfull [19:07] I like its simplicity and generality [19:07] looks like a windows logo [19:07] though I don't think it looks that good design-wise [19:07] (with its corners) [19:07] yeah, I suppose it does a bit [19:08] usability-wise, there's nothing wrong with it [19:08] cubalibre? [19:08] I mean, Sunset [19:08] i am not the biggest fan, but its okay [19:08] <alexander_> Yes, it looks a bit like the old ones [19:08] that was @cfull [19:09] DNA? [19:09] too specific imho [19:09] okay, so no more comments cuba libre wished? [19:09] more suited for the repository [19:09] <alexander_> which one? [19:10] the latter [19:10] cubalibre is fine if it loses the glass [19:11] <alexander_> I would need to remove the bitmaps, though [19:11] whats wrong with the glass? [19:11] it doesn't really make sense with "sunset" [19:11] and it's not generic [19:11] and it's just an unnecessary element [19:11] <alexander_> It was supposed to resemble a Cuba Libre drink :) [19:11] yeah, of course [19:11] i still think it does make sense [19:11] for Sunset? [19:12] yes, to evoke the feeling of sitting at a beach bar [19:12] how? [19:12] but a sunset has little to do with a beach bar? [19:12] you can see a sunset in the mountains [19:12] or anywhere in the world, really [19:12] but the thing is rather tropically themed anyway [19:13] sure [19:13] still, I see it more as unnecessary clipart [19:13] and it would be inappropriate for many presentations [19:13] okay, so remove the stain and the glass [19:14] yes, that'd be ideal [19:14] <alexander_> That nice stain :) [19:14] also, alex, can you maybe rotatet the photos, so text is "straight" not [19:14] like it is now? [19:14] <alexander_> Should I remove the textures, too? [19:14] <alexander_> Yes [19:15] i think you should keep everything else now [19:15] yes [19:15] I'd remove the textures [19:15] since they're not even that noticeable [19:15] and just add to the filesize [19:15] <alexander_> They add to the 'athmosphere', I don't know whether it'll look that good without them [19:15] could you try it? [19:16] <alexander_> yes [19:16] <alexander_> 1,2 MB currently [19:16] with textures? [19:18] alex? [19:21] == alexander__ [~alexander@dslb-094-220-226-029.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #libreoffice-design [19:21] <alexander__> sorry, my laptop overheted [19:21] == alexander_ [~alexander@dslb-094-220-226-029.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] [19:22] oh ... not so cool [19:22] <alexander__> indeed [19:22] <alexander__> @mirek: Yes, with textures [19:22] <alexander__> but exported to png [19:23] could you see what it is without the textures? [19:23] and with SVG rather than PNG, if possible? [19:24] uhm ... if i can ask what do you want to get rid of exactly, mirek? [19:24] then sunset? the brown background? [19:24] -n [19:24] alex said he used a texture [19:25] I assume that's on the brown background [19:25] it could easily be a single color or a gradient [19:25] <alexander__> I also used it for the 'photographs', to add some noise [19:26] i don't think it's needed [19:27] id like to see it with and without [19:28] me too [19:28] :) [19:32] okay... next template? [19:32] DNA [19:32] alex, are you working on getting it without the patterns? [19:33] <alexander__> http://ubuntuone.com/4OZ9tUYoTLG9BeZwiNhgRF [19:33] <alexander__> hm, the noise would need to be removed [19:33] yes [19:34] you changed the template quite a bit [19:34] since https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/1/14/CubaLibre.png [19:35] <alexander__> rather without the red rectangle? [19:35] personally, yes [19:35] I don't mind it, but it needs to lose the noise [19:36] and please try to get the orange photo centred [19:36] <alexander__> the yellow one was a bit transparent and the red one was just behind it, adding some pixel noise [19:37] ah ok [19:39] I like it without the patterns and without the pixel noise [19:39] <alexander__> uploaded a new version [19:39] where? [19:40] link doesn't work anymore [19:40] <alexander__> http://ubuntuone.com/7iAccTrDJ95pnfSlwA3zOy [19:41] i think i like it [19:41] <alexander__> is that ok? [19:42] I prefer the former sun representation [19:42] i.e. no circle silhouette [19:42] also, the shadow in the back looks off [19:42] <alexander__> I'll need to clip those stripes then [19:42] at the top [19:42] okay... then DNA [19:42] <alexander__> yes [19:43] i actually like it. [19:43] religious zealots might not like it ... dunno if we care [19:43] otherwise, Sunset is fine [19:43] <alexander__> I not too generic, but I hope we could include it anyways [19:44] I also think it's not very generic [19:44] I'd prefer to have it online, but not bundled [19:44] <alexander__> well, the text would be removed of course [19:45] <alexander__> I don't know whether a DNA molecule is that offending [19:45] of course, but the presentations would have to have a microbiology-related topic for the template to be relevant [19:45] I don't think a DNA molecule would offend anyone [19:45] no, not really helices can ome up elsewhere too [19:45] +c [19:46] still, the field of topics is very limited [19:46] anyway, to firered? [19:47] not very interesting – very generic, but zero appeal [19:47] I agree that it's not the best visually [19:47] but at least it's generic [19:48] <alexander__> yeah, it doesn't even have some minimalistic feel [19:48] I agree [19:48] okay, tentative no. [19:48] glibo [19:48] <alexander__> the icon would need to be removed [19:49] I'd still include it in the vote [19:49] firered, that is [19:49] can basically only be used for libo themed stuff – not very useful [19:49] I agree [19:49] but it's not bad if you remove the bottom line [19:49] (logo + pattern) [19:49] which leaves only green text [19:50] and header [19:50] and it actually looks pretty good [19:50] hold on -- if we use the second slide only, then it's find [19:50] fine, not find [19:51] sorry, I was basing my opínions only on the preview [19:51] any other opinions? [19:51] okay, second slide seems fine to me [19:52] alex? [19:52] <alexander__> yeah, it's alright [19:53] on to hexagons [19:53] <alexander__> pretty generic [19:53] yes, I agree [19:53] for me, it's just too big a file [19:53] it'd be great if you could tile the hexagons [19:53] not sure how that works within Impress [19:54] rather, not sure if it works [19:54] @mirek: yes, you can tile a background image [19:54] <alexander__> why not keep it the png background? [19:54] 600 kb is still a bit large [19:55] I agree [19:55] and it doesn't scale too well [19:55] and not scalable enough [19:55] exactly [19:55] <alexander__> I'll have a look at tiling, then [19:56] alright [19:56] can we move to lush green for now? [19:56] <alexander__> yes [19:57] I like it [19:57] is it in SVG? [19:58] <alexander__> yes have a svg version [19:58] <alexander__> its of the same size [19:58] alright, let's use it then [19:58] since it's scalable [19:59] astron, thoughts? [19:59] its alright [20:00] although i wonder if the centre line will interfere with content [20:00] I'd hope we use the second masterpage [20:00] without the overlaid rectangle [20:01] <alexander__> that's not the one being used [20:01] really? why not? [20:01] <alexander__> I had several variations, one with the green bar in the center, one with that gray border, one without the border and one with quotation signs [20:02] I prefer the one without the border [20:02] it's the one that works for most layouts [20:02] <alexander__> That's the one in the repo [20:02] <alexander__> agree [20:02] oh, that's what I meant by the second one [20:02] move on to Metropolis? [20:03] okay [20:03] this one likely wont work w/o the font [20:03] alex, could you post what the new version looks like? [20:03] with liberation sans? [20:03] I'd say it would work without the fonts [20:03] <alexander__> http://ubuntuone.com/0V6kT5c7jq5br8ou5EBUGW [20:04] <alexander__> wait, that was without text [20:04] <alexander__> but the svg version [20:04] I really like it [20:04] could the border be pattern-less? [20:04] it feels dirty [20:05] <alexander__> http://ubuntuone.com/4ejW4nU8nY1nTdGydo579w [20:05] == mirek2_ [d5dcf47d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.220.244.125] has joined #libreoffice-design [20:05] == mirek2_ [d5dcf47d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.220.244.125] has quit [Client Quit] [20:05] nice [20:05] the border feels pixelated, imho [20:05] its still okay... [20:06] <alexander__> it's an svg effect, I can remove it though [20:06] please do :) [20:06] right, the border doesn't really fit into the slides [20:06] (as everything else ist flat) [20:07] <alexander__> the border in general or the the fact that it's pixelated? [20:07] the latter, at least for me [20:07] +1 to mirek [20:09] alex, would you be willing to edit that? [20:09] <alexander__> http://ubuntuone.com/4ejW4nU8nY1nTdGydo579w [20:09] <alexander__> yes [20:09] better, thanks! [20:09] great! [20:09] onto Papersheet? [20:10] <alexander__> okay [20:10] I like its simplicity [20:10] <alexander__> yeah it look good [20:10] <alexander__> *s [20:11] astron? [20:11] the huge gray frame looks like a bit of a waste of space [20:11] the font is *§%+# [20:11] but, since we have liberation anyway... [20:12] <alexander__> perhaps the torn paper could look more realistic? [20:12] it's not torn [20:13] do you mean the dog ear? [20:13] I like it how it is, to be honest [20:13] frankly, I'd like to get rid of the dog ear if we do choose this one [20:13] uh ... that makes it just a white sheet on blacj,,= [20:14] ... black..? [20:14] <alexander__> ah, yes [20:14] gray [20:14] yes [20:14] on to portfolio? [20:15] wait no ... let me say that i dont like the idea of removing the dog ear [20:16] alright [20:16] if it gets chosen, then I'll be fine with the dog ear [20:16] but I probably won't vote for it [20:17] on to portfolio? [20:17] yes [20:17] <alexander__> ok [20:17] <alexander__> I really like it [20:17] i dont really like the background and Raleway is imho not a very attractive font [20:18] (its ok) [20:18] its lines are just too thin even for display purposes [20:18] we wouldn't use raleway [20:18] <alexander__> Raleway is great for headlines, IMO [20:18] I don't like the background [20:18] me neither [20:18] I think the template would be fine with a black background, tbh [20:18] <alexander__> but nor for the text body [20:18] but i said that [20:19] or rather dark grey [20:19] <alexander__> maybe a slight gradient [20:20] so let's agree that if we elect this one, we'll simplify the background [20:20] okay [20:20] to either a single color or a gradient [20:20] progress ... i like [20:20] me too [20:20] which of the masterpages should we use [20:21] i am a bit unsure about the contrast of green to dark gray, though [20:21] <alexander__> maybe a brighter green [20:21] it's enough of a contrast, imho [20:21] I really like the green that's used right now [20:21] maybe a bit, yes... [20:22] me too, otoh [20:22] I think it's enough of a contrast, to be honest [20:22] i would go for the second slide though, not for the third one [20:23] (the third is not light enough) [20:23] if by second slide, you mean the one on the top right on https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/0/02/Progress_preview.jpg [20:24] then I agree [20:24] yes, thats the one [20:24] agreed [20:24] alex? [20:25] <alexander__> agreed [20:25] okay...three notes [20:25] <alexander__> Not very useful, I think [20:25] im not sure if you can use it under any normal circumstances at all [20:25] but nice idea [20:26] I agree [20:26] it doesn't really work with any of the layouts [20:27] okay... typography [20:28] I like each one except yellow [20:28] <alexander__> First and last slide probably cannot be used [20:28] yeah, for layout reasons [20:28] i hate the purple one [20:29] sorry... if i am too outspoken here [20:29] <alexander__> Should that one be left out? [20:30] well it would become multiple templates anyway. [20:30] well, we'll vote on each of the remaining three [20:30] anyway, move on to vintage? [20:31] nice idea, but im not convinced [20:31] <alexander__> svg version: http://ubuntuone.com/1i79UZbvaFwEOlKy0vNdPM [20:32] <alexander__> Should something be changed? [20:32] hm, maybe make the background yellower [20:32] to be honest, though, I never really liked the template much [20:33] astron, your thoughts? [20:34] its okay... but one thing thats not so good in the new version is that the ink doesnt actually extend to the border of the page [20:35] <alexander__> I think it renders a bit diffeent [20:35] <alexander__> I can increase their size [20:37] okay... next one [20:37] <alexander__> should this one excluded? [20:37] <alexander__> *be [20:37] no, i dont think so [20:37] I don't think it's unusable [20:37] ...world [20:38] imho too many different colours [20:39] <alexander__> I like that map, maybe it could be a bit bigger and the slides a bit more polished [20:39] I don't really like the map [20:39] that's just me, though [20:40] its usable, but certainly not my favourite [20:40] also using an actual map means its kinda important what you put into the centre [20:40] exactly [20:40] (ie: american maps will put america in the centre) [20:41] okay... points. [20:41] yes? [20:41] how would this work? [20:42] how about we just pick 10 templates we like? [20:42] each [20:42] okay, lets each pick ten (or fewer templates) [20:43] I'd vote for bright blue, clean inspiration, glibo, lush reen, metropolis, progress [20:44] maybe some typography templates as well [20:44] clean inspiration second slide, glibo second slide, progress second slide, typography red, metropolis, sunset, lush (alternate slide) [20:45] <alexander__> progress, portfolio, metropolis, lush green, sunset, clean inspiration, bright blue, blueprint [20:45] <alexander__> plus the 2nd and 4th of the typography ones [20:46] we all agree on progress, metropolis, clean inspiration [20:46] how many templates do we need to select? [20:46] ten? [20:46] six? [20:46] everything with at least 2 voices, up to ten [20:47] oh, and lush green [20:47] I'd be fine with sunset as well [20:48] typography red as well [20:48] we're up to 6 [20:49] glibo and bright blue have two votes [20:49] anything I missed? [20:49] uh no [20:50] then lets keep those 8.... [20:50] so progress, metropolis, clean inspiration, lush green, sunset, typography red, glibo, and bright blue [20:51] my real life calls... sorry.. [20:51] ill go offline now [20:51] <alexander__> Alright, bye [20:51] was nice chatting with you. bye [20:52] == astron247 [~frootzowr@dslb-188-102-176-051.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #libreoffice-design [] [20:52] bye [20:52] anyway, we need to contact the authors about licensing [20:53] and tell developers what we've chosen [20:53] <alexander__> I guess the statement that all submissions must be cc0 doesn't suffice? [20:54] no, I think we need a clear statement [20:54] I'll ask Michael, I guess? [20:54] or is someone better at lawyering? [20:55] <alexander__> He told me to send a mail with a blanket statement to the dev mailing list [20:55] Michael? [20:56] what statement, btw? [20:56] <alexander__> yes [20:56] I know there's a set LGPL/MPL statement [20:56] I guess we could just modify it for CC0? [20:56] <alexander__> I hereby declare that all my past and future contributions to libreoffice are licensed under LGPLv3/MPL or, where applicable under cc0 [20:57] <alexander__> something likew that [20:57] I'll ask Michael for a statement :) [20:57] <alexander__> ok [20:57] "where applicable" seems too vague [20:58] it's not a statement I would send myself [20:58] anything else to discuss? [20:58] it might have been good to discuss the start center/splash screen looks, but since Astron's gone... [20:59] <alexander__> I guess the splash screens etc don't need to be discussed today [20:59] <alexander__> yeah [20:59] yeah [20:59] <alexander__> Could you upload the log? [21:00] sure [21:00] I guess we're done then [21:01] <alexander__> yes [21:01] good night, then :) [21:01] <alexander__> Have a nice weekend