Design/Meetings/2013-02-23

Attendees

 * astron247
 * Feldo
 * issa
 * medieval
 * mirek2

Topics

 * Flat icon set
 * Collaboration
 * Extensions manager
 * Impress icon
 * Tabs (for changing document)

Log
[18:07]  Hello. [18:07]  I'm new here. [18:08]  It's the right time for the meeting, right? [18:09] hi guys [18:09]  Hello. [18:10] has the conversation started? [18:10] if so, what did I miss? [18:10] hi all [18:11]  Hi. [18:11]  No, no conversation started for the moment. [18:11] alright [18:12] hm, then esc update first? [18:12] yes please :) [18:13]  Er, what means "esc update"? ^^; [18:13]  That's the first time I come here. [18:14] ESC is the acronym for Engineering Steering Committee [18:15] they have a call every Thursday and publish minutes on the dev mailing list [18:15] Astron usually attends as a representative of the design team [18:15] * not much to say – we didnt discuss the new artwork; [18:15] * i kind of asked michael m if it were ok if we started to ship the gradients from symphony and he didn't really reply, but made it an action item [18:15] * michael s finally looked into the sub-/superscript bug that we wanted them to look into – since then its notabug again [18:16]  mirek2: okay. [18:16] (about the gradients: i think he still has to look into the licensing thing) [18:16] what exactly do you mean by "its notabug again"? has it been rejected? [18:16] oh, and kendy is on holiday, but maybe mirek can tell us how it goes with the proposed design easy hacks [18:17] there's not really anything to say yet [18:17] I still don't have my computer fixed [18:17] mirek2: yes, rainer and michael thought it doesn't make much sense. https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=46517 [18:17] so I haven't devoted that much time to it [18:18] astron247: that the proposed fix doesn't make sense? how? it seems very rational [18:18] one rarely needs to apply sub/superscript to a whole word [18:18] i posted the link ↑ [18:18] oh, ok, I'll read the comments [18:20] their response is pretty discouraging [18:20] the reasoning seems to be that since we've been doing it for a while and since another suite does it, we should do it too, even if it doesn't make sense [18:22] michael also posted this on the dev list: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/minutes-of-ESC-call-td4039207.html#d1361476584000-650 [18:22] has anyone suggested a use case for the current behavior, because I can't see one? [18:22] not really. [18:22] at the same time, i agree that the bug is not incredibly important [18:22] <@medieval> hi all [18:23] hi [18:23] astron247: what worries me more is the attitude [18:23] right [18:23] hi [18:24] medieval: http://piratenpad.de/eiuRMP44yn [18:24]  Hi medieval. [18:24] also, the bug is not important to us, but it's important enough to raise a long discussion on by a user [18:24] so... what can we do now? [18:25] not much, i guess. except hire a new developer :) [18:25] :) [18:25] if a developer wants to fix it, could he? [18:26] im sure fo that [18:26] ok [18:26] its kind of a systemic problem, though, that ux in libreoffice is regarded as an also-ran [18:26] <@medieval> what the bug there? [18:26] https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=46517 [18:26] hi issa [18:26] hi [18:27] <@medieval> hi issa [18:27] hi [18:27] astron247: yeah, I hope that'll change [18:27] sorry forgot about the meeting [18:27] not sure I can stay long though [18:27] ok, that's fine [18:27] let's talk about icons, then [18:27] sure [18:27] i dont believe it – because what the big customers want is apparently mostly full compatibility with mso and not much else, it seems [18:28] <@medieval> flat icon set? [18:28] <@medieval> issa made a great mockups [18:28] astron247: sure, but we have a safety net for UX changes -- AOO [18:28] how is that a safety net? [18:29] we can experiment with the UI and if we mess up, our user has the option switch back to AOO or an old version of ours until we fix the mess [18:30] while that's true I don't think we want people to switch back to AOO [18:30] that sounds like a terrible idea, especially as aoo 4 is going to be quite a bit different it seems [18:31] also, what issa said [18:31] well, UX changes are always risky, but they also have the potential to bring users [18:32] thats not the point though – they are often development intensive for no "real" gain [18:32] ok ... lets skip this, shall we? [18:32] a good new look will attract a lot of users [18:32] sure :) [18:33] sure [18:33] issa: since you're leading the project, tell us what you need, what the status is, ... [18:34] to be honest I'm not sure [18:34] I just planned to go over them one by one [18:34] review your proposed icons? [18:35] sure, we could do that [18:35]  (Is there a program about the content of the metting? Or we can talk about anything about the design of LO?) [18:35] Feldo: we can talk about anything [18:35] these are the icons I've proposed if anyone haven't seen them https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Symbolic-test.png [18:36] feldo: on our mailing list, mirek usually posts something [18:36] let me look [18:36]  mirek2: ok [18:37] feldo: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/IRC-chat-td4039496.html – those are the fixed topics, usually we discuss other matters also [18:37] I plan to write a small guideline from what I can gather from gnome [18:37] the things I post are usually just topics we should go through, and if anyone can't attend, they can post a topic they'd like discussed [18:37]  astron247:ok, thanks. I'm going to read it. [18:37] <@medieval> (and possible colored ones https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Symbolic-test-colored.png) [18:37] issa: I think it'd be better to contact jimmac first, say that we want to design some icons and then push them upstream [18:38] sure, will do [18:38] great :) [18:38] but if gnomes icons are grey and ours are coloured, how will this work? [18:38] which is better email or irc? [18:38] irc, i guess [18:38] astron247: we push them upstream then color them :) [18:38] issa: if he's available, irc is better [18:39] ok [18:39] also, will gnome be interested in all our "power user" icons? [18:39] they include GIMP and Inkscape icons, so I think they will [18:40] and there are already symbolic versions of the LibreOffice programs icons [18:40] oh i didnt know that [18:41] http://www.mediafire.com/conv/6d8fe6d19f801eab51c6fef424da21c868066bfb20551e0289f20802742dd8466g.jpg?size_id=4 [18:41] I'm not sure whether they are actually used or not yet [18:41] I don't think gnome uses symbolic icons very much yet [18:41] that may change as they work on their HIG [18:41] yeah, only in the sidebar and status [18:42] we should also figure out a good icon making workflow [18:43] I wrote to Máirín Duffy and she told me that "MagicMockup is stable enough, Glitter Gallery still needs a lot of work" [18:43] SparkleShare is stable enough to use [18:44] wait which one is MM and which one is GG? [18:44] so we could use that, but previewing icons would be annoying [18:44] why that? [18:44] issa: MM: tools for producing interactive mockups with Inkscape [18:44] oh [18:44] issa: GG: a gallery of mockup previews, along with a comment system [18:45] then GG is what we need the most [18:45] astron247: well, git is not a good tool for previewing work online [18:45] though with icons it doesn't matter that much [18:46] astron247: do we have a git repository that we can use? [18:46] anyway I suggest we make a version of each basic/standard icon following the same metaphor in tango icon set [18:46] the original artwork repo is still unused [18:46] we only polish and edit them after voting [18:47] issa: we should use the same metaphor as in the Gnome icon set or the Tango testing set [18:47] issa: voting? [18:47] does the Tango testing differ from the current Tango? [18:47] not voting, more like gathering feedback [18:47] yes, quite a lot [18:47] yes, quite a bit for common icons [18:48] oh I wasn't aware [18:48] Tango testing is based on the Gnome 3 icon set [18:48] however, it's still a work in progress, so some symbols may change [18:49] issa: you can try tango testing in any pre-release version of libo [18:49] I see [18:49] issa: how exactly do you imagine this working? [18:49] yeah I know, but never looked much into them [18:50] be aware that there are tons of icons to do for LibreOffice [18:50] (not to discourage you or anything, but having a review cycle for each icon would take a while) [18:50] we need to identify reusable parts [18:51] the file symbol, the pluses and stuff like that [18:51] ...I am a bit clueless [18:51] that sounds good [18:51] maybe focus on them toolbar by toolbar? [18:51] that sounds good as well :) [18:51] should we use git for uploading the icons? [18:52] some icons are in multiple applications in multiple toolbars ... [18:52] if so, how do we deal with commit access there? [18:52] that's even better, when we get to later toolbars they won't be empty :) [18:53] I'm not sure I can answer the git question [18:53] <@medieval> (as I look there are ariund 3860 icons to be made) [18:54] right, exactly [18:55] <@medieval> but most of them are just copy/paste with little position change [18:55] exactly [18:56] medieval: even if thats true of 50% of them that still leaves you with a huge amount of icons [18:56] <@medieval> yes [18:57] <@medieval> ofcourse [18:58] I am aware that it would take a lot of time and effort, but I think we NEED to do it [18:58] I think so too [18:58] ok [18:58] but we do need to figure out a way to work on it [18:59] to put them in points [18:59] 1- identify reusable parts [18:59] 2- standardize sizing and positioning (curves too?) [18:59] 3- design reusable parts [18:59] 4- handle icons toolbar by toolbar [19:00] astron247: not being well-versed in git, I'm wondering how collaboration on git would work [19:00] isnt sparkleshare supposed to solve that? [19:00] <@medieval> iisa: colors? [19:01] I mean, how does one get commit access? [19:02] specific only to the artwork repo, of course [19:02] <@medieval> sparkleshare again? [19:02] medieval: I think we should get to colors once we're done from initial design [19:02] <@medieval> ok [19:02] issa: if you catch jimmac on irc, could you invite him here? [19:03] mirek2: do you mean now? [19:03] yes [19:03] ok [19:03] mirek: we could maybe run this over gerrit, for which you only need to register yourself [19:04] of course, that would probably annoy developers with lots of (to them) irrelevant commits [19:04] (depending on how active we are) [19:05] hm... [19:06] another option would be to start this on github/gitorious [19:06] that sounds better [19:07] agreed [19:07] still, how is commit access handled? [19:07] can any contributor grant commit access? [19:08] also, how open do we want this process to be? [19:08] github makes pull requests relatively easy [19:09] i am not sure how commit access is handled, but supposedly there is one or more project admins [19:09] Mirek2: PMed jimmac, doesn't look like he's there [19:10] okay [19:10] I think we can request it on the mailing list (or from any of the "big guys") [19:11] alright [19:11]  Is the icon theme include icons for math formula buttons too? Or is it totally different from themes? [19:12] not sure [19:12] I have no clue [19:13] it'd be good to try the workflow out [19:14] feldo: the math icons in every theme currently come from the galaxy theme – because no one wanted to do the tedious job of replacing a 100 (or more?) text-only icons [19:14] (yet) [19:14]  Because I see pixels in formula buttons. Look like they need a good revamp, too, if they're not in the theme. [19:15]  astron247: so a new theme would solve the problem? [19:15] <@medieval> (they are included) [19:15] <Feldo> okay. [19:15] Feldo: well, one could simply propose better icons [19:15] for the current icon theme [19:16] feldo: you can theme, but we haven't done that yet. i agree they're in need though [19:16] <Feldo> oh? [19:16] ^theme^theme them [19:16] <Feldo> Yes, that, and there is a need to make it more like LateX options. [19:17] ?? [19:17] <Feldo> I mean, friends in computing studies complained about it, so I guess it's needed. [19:18] i have never worked with latex so far [19:18] <Feldo> Some buttons/functions seem missing, comparing with other freewares using LatX for writing math formulas. [19:19] post a bug report, perhaps? [19:19] feldo: talk to olivier hallot about that – he was the last one to add things there [19:19] <Feldo> okay. [19:20] <Feldo> Although there is a LateX plugin for LO already available. [19:20] ok. back to the icons, i suppose? [19:20] <Feldo> Before doing further improvements, I mean. [19:20] <Feldo> Yes [19:21] ok [19:21] <mirek2_> who is the current admin of the git repo? [19:22] no idea [19:22] <mirek2_> astron247: in case you missed the question: who is the current admin of the git repo? [19:23] on freedesktop.org? [19:23] <mirek2_> yes [19:23] the freedesktop.org people [19:23] <mirek2_> I meant, of the artwork repo [19:23] same [19:23] you always get commit access for the entirety of libo repos [19:24] to get commit access, you have to file a bug on fdo, find a sponsor from libo, then they let you in [19:25] <mirek2_> not really fitting for our icon design [19:25] <mirek2_> where we probably want to be more open [19:26] if we git is too much trouble we could try SparkleShare [19:27] sparkleshare uses git [19:27] oh [19:27] <mirek2_> exactly [19:27] dropbox :P? [19:27] <mirek2_> it just makes it more user-friendly [19:28] <mirek2_> issa: not that open-source friendly, but it is an option [19:28] <mirek2_> astron247: would it be possible to have a completely separate artwork repository [19:29] <mirek2_> so that we could be liberal with commit access [19:29] i guess it'd be a bit complicated on fdo, but why not on github? [19:29] the only thing wed have to make sure of is that everyone contributes under an acceptable license [19:30] <mirek2_> yes [19:31] cool [19:31] <mirek2_> that's a problem we'd have on any platform, though [19:32] https://github.com/libodesign/flat-icons [19:33] nice [19:33] <mirek2_> great :) [19:33] <mirek2_> can you give me commit access? [19:34] just one note about the icons [19:34] <mirek2_> issa: do you have a github account? [19:34] <mirek2_> issa: yes? [19:34] I'm not sure [19:34] out of the icons here https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/d/d2/Symbolic-test.png I only had to mess with the paths in about three of them [19:35] the rest was chopped from various existing icons [19:35] I think that should make our progress a lot faster [19:35] <mirek2_> that's not really a good way to design the icons, though [19:36] why not? [19:36] mirek2: see private channel [19:36] <mirek2_> issa: they're not designed using the same standards [19:37] <mirek2_> there might also be licensing problems [19:37] they are Gnome symbolic [19:37] they should all have the same license, no? [19:38] <mirek2_> oh, so by 'chopped', you mean they're derivatives of various symbolic icons? [19:39] <mirek2_> in that case, that's fine [19:40] yes [19:41] as in combined different symbols from different places (a + paintbrush = text color, printer + magnifier = print preview) [19:44] sorry, got signed off [19:44] anyway, issa, so... I guess your tasks for the week are to create a git account, ask for commit access, install sparkleshare, contact jimmac and find out the icon design guidelines [19:45] put them together to create a guide, and maybe try to commit a first icon [19:46] sure :) [19:47] I should ask astron247 for commit access? [19:47] <@medieval> ( tried to make some math icons: old ones: https://www.dropbox.com/s/u8fw0tca6ynvibb/bi21301%20%282%29.png new: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ryooq267dkk73pq/bi21301.png ) [19:47] i am not sure how to do it yet [19:47] issa: create an account now and just write your username [19:47] astron247: it's under settings [19:47] on the repo page [19:48] in the "collaborators section" [19:48] i know, but how do i get the Add button to activate? [19:48] it works for me [19:48] I just added myself :) [19:48] odd [19:48] <Feldo> medieval: the old ones are in PNG or SVG? [19:48] astron247: you have to select a user first [19:49] how do i do that? [19:49] <@medieval> Feldo: png [19:49] start typing user name, choose from the dropdown list that appears [19:50] hm... no dropdown... [19:50] I'll add you if you'd like [19:50] better add issa [19:51] issa, do you have an account yet? [19:51] yes [19:51] ialkurtass [19:51] (issa is taken : [19:52] astron247, are you Astron on github? [19:52] added? [19:52] no, i used my libo email to register [19:52] medieval: what font is that? [19:52] issa: yes [19:52] <@medieval> vegur [19:52] cool, thanks [19:53] <Feldo> medieval: maybe it would be better to use another font for math icons? [19:53] we will have to turn libodesign into an organisation first, before i can be astron, i guess [19:54] astron247: that would probably be good to do, though, as in case you stop collaborating, it'd be good not to have the account tied to your e-mail [19:54] right [19:55] <@medieval> (how can i direct talk somebody (the red one) in web?) [19:55] click on their name in the right sidebar [19:55] then click -query [19:55] medival: just type his name and it will appear read to him :) [19:56] (this will appear red to you medieval) [19:56] <@medieval> ok [19:56] medieval: as long as you don't make a typo of course :P [19:57] you can also just type the first few letters, then hit tab [19:57] <@medieval> overall icon font will be vegur? [19:57] that's nice [19:57] medieval: no, there's no set font for the icons [19:57] vegur is just LibreOffice's logo name [19:58] that's one problem I had with the icons, it doesn't seem that there is a defined font [19:58] icons aren't usually based on fonts [19:58] but I think a font will make them look like they belong together [19:58] text shapes are usually drawn to best fit a grid [19:59] oh I see [19:59] also, besides the Math icons, we usually only need the letter A [19:59] B and C for a few icons (like grammar checking) [19:59] <@medieval> ( https://www.dropbox.com/s/xhp3lb8tugv6pbu/bi21301_c.png) [20:00] and the numbers, at least 1 2 3 [20:00] yes, for e.g. the numbering icon [20:01] oh and PDF icon too [20:01] I wouldn't use text for the PDF icon [20:01] it's better to use the Acrobat logo, like we do now [20:01] as "PDF" could be hard to read at small sizes [20:02] was that changed in the new set [20:02] I really need to be up to date [20:03] I think it was, but I'm not 100% sure [20:04] yes, it was changed by alex [20:04] http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/tree/icon-themes/tango_testing/cmd/lc_exportdirecttopdf.png?h=libreoffice-4-0-1 [20:05] (click "plain" to view it) [20:05] oh I see [20:06] so is that all about the icons? [20:07] I think so [20:07] because I think I have to leave soon [20:07] unless you have something to ask [20:07] yes, did you discuss the color picker or the UI redesigns? [20:07] not yet [20:07] btw: is alex using the right colours for his icons? [20:07] what exactly do you mean by UI redesigns? [20:08] redesign proposals [20:08] (or UX if you may) [20:08] astron247: not sure [20:08] issa: any specific ones? [20:08] no [20:09] I was thinking of designing one [20:09] well, any UX redesign proposal serves merely to inspire [20:10] something like this http://i.imgur.com/j1hbOPN.png [20:10] you mean just changing the position of elements? [20:10] yeah [20:10] and removing some of them [20:11] you can always make a proposal and send it to the design list, though you're very likely to run into some opposition [20:11] yeah I expect that [20:12] also this color picker https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:I_colorpicker.png [20:13] (based on one by medieval based on one by you) [20:13] as I said last week, I'd like to make a few proposals as well [20:14] and I would prefer to discuss all the proposals next week [20:14] btw, github seems like a good place to hold our SVG sources [20:14] alright if I create a repo for that? [20:14] (from the libodesign account) [20:16] mirek, what svgs do you mean? [20:16] e.g. the SVG source for the remote icon [20:16] <@medieval> (deos somebody here know some good math font like utopia but clearer licence: it would be good for making new math icons) [20:16] put that in original artwork please [20:17] (on fdo, i know you have commit rights) [20:17] I don't have commit rights [20:17] or at least, I don't think I do [20:17] really?? [20:17] i think you do [20:18] honestly, I'm not even sure if I have an fdo account [20:18] okay. then, ... can you ready a commit please and do git format-patch and send it to me? [20:19] well, I might work on it some more [20:19] anyway, i have to go. sorry [20:20] <@medieval> bye [20:20] alright, bye [20:20] I'll send you an e-mail [20:22] on the topic of the Impress remote icon, what do you think about it? [20:22] and would you perhaps like to work on some polishes? [20:22] yes it would be a great idea to post the SVGs in the repo [20:23] I think you should make it look like a remote and less like a phone [20:23] would you like to work on it, maybe? [20:23] the SVGs are here, btw: https://ubuntuone.com/6jI1IQyPl00MSKtWsmJOnk [20:23] I can try [20:24] what kind of remote do you have in mind? [20:24] I'm new to Inkscape, very new [20:24] I'll give it a go [20:24] anyway I have to go [20:24] oh, ok [20:24] bye [20:24] be sure to watch jimmac's icon creation video [20:25] <Feldo> issa: bye [20:25] bye now :) [20:25] I did :) [20:25] I mean the non-symbolic one [20:25] oh ok I will [20:25] bye [20:25] see you later :) [20:26] any other comments about the icon? [20:26] <Feldo> medieval is trying to do something with math icons. [20:27] <@medieval> i think the icon is ok when it follows android quidelines [20:27] <Feldo> mirek2: Do you know if it's okay to use a GNU GPL font for creating an icon for a Libre-Office theme ? [20:28] <Feldo> Since LO uses GNU LGPL 3. [20:32] any other topics we should discuss? [20:33] <Feldo> Yes. [20:33] <Feldo> About adding extension. [20:34] <Feldo> There is no system to add them from LO directly, right? [20:34] <Feldo> (i only have LO 4.0.0) [20:34] <@medieval> there is? [20:35] to add them, yes there is, to browse them, no, there isn't [20:35] <Feldo> I don't think, but I can still be wrong if it's already in the pipes in a dev version. [20:36] <Feldo> mirek2: Maybe it would be useful to see if we can design it and them submit it to dev? [20:37] would you like to lead this project? [20:37] <@medieval> https://www.dropbox.com/s/hobfgabyzyvxgdm/camd.png ? [20:37] (I don't have the time or the enthusiasm to lead it) [20:38] <Feldo> medieval: where does it come from? [20:38] Feldo: if I understand you correctly, you mean add a way to browse extensions within LibreOffice, like what Firefox allows? [20:39] <@medieval> Feldo: it's is LO 4 stable [20:39] <Feldo> mirek2: yes, exactly. [20:39] would you like to lead the project, then? [20:39] <@medieval> it is there already [20:40] <@medieval> (I don't run dev version, in dev it is not active possibly) [20:40] <Feldo> I probaly missed it them. [20:40] <Feldo> then* [20:40] the dialog currently links to the website [20:42] <Feldo> So there is still a need of a built-in extension browser for the Extension Center? [20:42] <@medieval> ( https://www.dropbox.com/s/xhp3lb8tugv6pbu/bi21301_c.png i don't even know if it is possible to make it better with 24x24 only) [20:42] <Feldo> (it looks good for me) [20:43] <@medieval> feldo: yes it is needed for browsing new ones [20:43] <Feldo> (also, it's still much better than the current version) [20:43] it looks pretty good, though it'd be better if you highlighted the relevant elements [20:43] however, integrating this into the dialog itself would take a ton of work and I don't think it's worth it yet [20:43] <Feldo> Maybe the same browser should be used to add templates too, then. [20:43] (in other words, I think that there are much more important things to work on right now) [20:44] <@medieval> yes, like color handling [20:44] Feldo: 4.0 introduces a new template manager, and support for browsing templates will come at a later version [20:44] yes [20:44] <Feldo> mirek2: so maybe later? [20:45] sure [20:45] it really depends on the developers [20:45] if it's a large project, it's unlikely they'll want to do it [20:46] <Feldo> If they're already working on the template addition to the browser, I guess they don't have the time for the moment. [20:46] it's more complicated than that [20:47] in general, features that can't be broken down into bitesized pieces are hard to get done unless they're necessary or part of a GSoC project [20:47] or unless someone wants to do it in his free time [20:48] any other topics to discuss? [20:49] <Feldo> Yes, one last thing. [20:50] go ahead [20:50] <Feldo> (at least, for me) [20:50] <Feldo> ok [20:50] <Feldo> It's about tabs. [20:50] alright [20:51] <Feldo> I discovered Office Tabs recently, and I think it may be nice to add the possibility to use tabs on LO. [20:51] <Feldo> I mean [20:52] <Feldo> There is the current mode for browsing LO documents. [20:52] <Feldo> But we can add (and design) two other ways. [20:52] <Feldo> One with tabs and only one type of document per window. [20:53] what would be the use case as opposed to traditional window management? [20:53] <Feldo> Like only LO Writer documents in one, etc. [20:54] <Feldo> The last way is tabs with every Lo document possible in one window. [20:54] <Feldo> mirek2: less clicks. [20:55] Feldo: that depends on your OS [20:55] <Feldo> Also, it become quickly a mess whith some OS or Desktop environnements. [20:55] <Feldo> Like, Win7 with Aero. [20:55] <Feldo> Or ubuntu with Unity. [20:55] in browsers, tabs are used because it's typical for a user to have a large number of websites open (dozens) [20:56] Feldo: true, but that's something that Canonical and Microsoft should fix [20:56] bad window management isn't our problem [20:56] <Feldo> Also, I sometimes need to have a lot of dosucments opened at the same time. [20:57] <Feldo> For writing essays, working on statistics, etc. [20:57] <Feldo> At the same time. [20:58] <Feldo> It would be more for a student and professional use. [20:59] I'm still not sold on the idea, mostly because it adds complexity, adds an additional horizontal bar, and it would likely take a lot of work, but you're free to ask on the ux-advise list if anyone would be willing to implement the feature [21:00] though you might have better luck with Apache OpenOffice, as they're free to use Symphony's code, and Symphony used tabs (though, oddly, I don't think it allowed multiple windows) [21:01] <@medieval> I think we currently don't need tabs [21:01] <@medieval> because we don't know exactly where we are going with ui design [21:01] <Feldo> What means "UX"? [21:01] UX stands for user experience [21:02] <Feldo> ok [21:02] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_experience [21:02] <Feldo> I remember having read this: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/tabs-in-LibreOffice-like-you-can-do-for-MS-Word-td2993290.html [21:02] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_experience_design [21:06] <Feldo> Another thing is even without a "compact view" bar of the program opened on a OS, I tend to have more documents and programs opened than space available. With a full HD screen. [21:06] <Feldo> ok, i'll read this. [21:07] having windows shown as tabs would be somewhat simple, I assume, as that's what Symphony does and what the extension you linked to did [21:07] however, it would make it impossible to have documents side-by-side without additional changes [21:08] having tabs in addition to windows would be more complex, I presume [21:08] <Feldo> Symphony=> IBM Lotus Symphony? [21:08] == [21:08] yes [21:08] <Feldo> Just to be sure. [21:09] if this feature was to be coded, I'd prefer it to be an extension [21:09] <Feldo> Not an option? [21:09] exactly [21:10] <Feldo> I still think it could be done simply at first. [21:10] what do you mean by that? the way Symphony did it? [21:10] <Feldo> Since we could have side-by-side documents with windows. So less coding. [21:11] <Feldo> Can't say, I just discovered this once today. [21:12] if you have tabs instead of windows, like Symphony did, you can't have side-by-side documents with windows, as there are no windows anymore [21:12] <Feldo> I have to test it before, I think. [21:13] <Feldo> mirek2: not even like Chrome/Chromium or Firefox? [21:13] ultimately it's up to you [21:13] <Feldo> How come? [21:13] if you can find a developer who wants to work on this, preferably as an extension [21:14] Feldo: I just think it's not worth the additional complexity and developer effort [21:16] <@medieval> (Feldo you can allways make mockups) [21:16] <Feldo> mirek2: Ok. It could still be added in the main code after, I guess? [21:16] after what? [21:16] <Feldo> medieval: (where would I post them? the wiki? dA?) [21:17] sorry, didn't see medieval's post [21:17] <@medieval> wiki [21:17] <Feldo> mirek2: After a development assuring a good stability and enough options? [21:17] or deviantArt, if you're more comfortable with it [21:17] <Feldo> medieval: on my user page, you mean? [21:17] <@medieval> yes [21:18] if someone codes it and it doesn't cause any problems, it's very likely to get picked up by either LibO or AOO [21:18] <Feldo> well, with not. I'll just have to get some free time and gathering references one my user page. [21:18] <Feldo> mirek2: ok [21:18] if it's an extension, it's guaranteed going to be on the extensions page [21:19] any other topics? [21:19] <Feldo> Another problem I see is it looks like there are a lot of talk about a huge UI redesign, right? [21:19] that talk is coming from outside LibreOffice [21:19] <Feldo> So my mockups could only use the current design. [21:20] <Feldo> Oh, ok. [21:20] it's more likely to be adopted if you use the current design [21:20] <Feldo> I see. [21:20] but it's not a requirement [21:22] any other topics? [21:22] <Feldo> Well, I think it doesn't need a huge redesign for adding tabs, so I'll stay with the current UI design for the moment. [21:22] ok :) [21:22] <Feldo> i'm finished here. no more topic in mind. :) [21:22] <@medieval> how can find developer to do something? [21:23] <@medieval> or... [21:24] you're on your own there [21:24] <@medieval> ok [21:24] things that there's a consensus on from the design team are usually sent to UX advise and mentioned on the ESC call [21:25] but it's still not a guarantee that someone will work on them [21:25] <@medieval> ok [21:25] could one of you post the log to the wiki? [21:25] <@medieval> can't we find some developer who want to work only design team? [21:25] <@medieval> I can [21:26] <Feldo> ok [21:26] great :) [21:26] if you'd like to find a developer, you can [21:26] <Feldo> (I mean, ok if medieval do it) [21:28] <@medieval> (If I have time for that, maybe we can mention it on our G+ page?) [21:28] <@medieval> just ask if somebody is willing to work for design team [21:28] if you do go looking for one, it should preferably be one who has already worked on LibreOffice as a volunteer, or at least on a FOSS project [21:29] medieval: as a volunteer dev? [21:29] perhaps it'd be good to have a task for him first [21:29] <@medieval> yes [21:29] like the color picker [21:29] <@medieval> color handler [21:30] we'll do the call for proposals this week [21:31] <@medieval> ok [21:32] I think that's it for today [21:32] <@medieval> ok [21:32] <@medieval> bye [21:32] <Feldo> ok [21:33] <Feldo> Good bye. [21:33] <@medieval> I am trying to make some math icons [21:33] see you later