Design/Meetings/2012-08-04

Attendees

 * Astron
 * alexanderW
 * Mirek2

Topics

 * LibreOffice 4.0
 * Rebranding
 * Lato for the logotype
 * Swiss design
 * Working with the marketing team
 * GSOC projects
 * Icons for the Templates dialog
 * Impress remote mockups
 * Name of the Impress remote app
 * Options dialog

Log
[17:54] == mirek2 [4e66c280@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.102.194.128] has joined #libreoffice-design [17:54] == mode/#libreoffice-design [+ns] by rowling.freenode.net [18:05] == alexanderW [~alexander@dslb-094-220-239-081.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #libreoffice-design [18:05]  hi [18:07] <@mirek2> hello [18:08] <@mirek2> I'm back until Tuesday, but then I think I'll leave again [18:08] == astron247 [~frootzowr@dslb-188-103-143-159.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #libreoffice-design [18:09] hello [18:09]  hi [18:09] have you begun yet? [18:09] <@mirek2> not yet [18:09] cool. im "in time" then [18:09] <@mirek2> any updates from the esc call? [18:11] not much, but [18:11] * michael has talked to jimmac, things look up for the relicensing action (apparently) [18:11] * michael has read through the cc-by-sa license, finds it reasonable and we says we could even stay on it [18:12] <@mirek2> so... are we relicensing or not? [18:12] == alexanderW [~alexander@dslb-094-220-239-081.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] [18:12] * theres an ongoing discussion whether to make libo 3.7 or 3.8 into 4.0 [18:12] <@mirek2> what license are we choosing? [18:12] <@mirek2> is that up to us or is Michael still deciding? [18:12] i guess hed still like to stay on mpl [18:12] <@mirek2> alright [18:13] but hes fine if we ship stuff under cc-by-sa even for 3.7 [18:13] <@mirek2> though I think cc-by-sa would make things easier [18:13] agree. [18:13] == alexanderW [~alexander@dslb-094-220-239-081.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #libreoffice-design [18:13] <@mirek2> for other projects [18:13] and us also [18:14] <@mirek2> yes, I suppose [18:14] <@mirek2> anyway, should we move onto a topic? [18:14] anyway. the discussion about 4.0ing is a bit scary since there will be not too many user-visible "new-UI"y changes, but develeopers are rather eager to deprecate some parts of the api [18:15] <@mirek2> is that the main reasoning behind the number change? the deprecation of parts of the api? [18:15]  I asked as a reply to the 4.0 PM whether I should create a new wiki page [18:16]  I think the binfilters will be dropped too [18:18] yes, thats right [18:19] so, basically, 4.0 so far is completely about developers not wanting to write com::sun::star so often. [18:19] <@mirek2> ok [18:19] <@mirek2> what about java? [18:19] <@mirek2> any changes on that front? [18:19] thatll remain, but it will likely stop being a hard dependency [18:19] (at some point) [18:20] <@mirek2> I'd love for that to happen with 4.0 [18:20] i think in base, hsqldb will be replaced by postgre [18:20] <@mirek2> good [18:20] but there will for the time being always be (non-core, yet important) extensions using java [18:21] (language tool) [18:21] <@mirek2> ok [18:21] <@mirek2> does 4.0 concern the design team in anyway? [18:21] <@mirek2> any way [18:21]  I think we'd want to do a rebranding? [18:21] what do you mean by that? [18:21] (@mirek) [18:22] <@mirek2> are there any visual changes or even ui changes planned for that? [18:22] <@mirek2> does it mean we should prioritize something? [18:23] that is entirely up to us and thats the scary part [18:23] sure, we can try to do that. [18:23] <@mirek2> alexanderW: what kind of rebranding? [18:24] this is an initiative i was interested in [18:24] <@mirek2> I certainly wouldn't want to let go of the LibreOffice icons we have now [18:24] becuase i had so much to do with the splash screens [18:24] and noticed how many things were lacking. [18:24] <@mirek2> such as? [18:24] problem is i am not a terribly graphical designer [18:25] <@mirek2> me neither [18:25] okay... so uhm i had prepared a mail with a laundry list of things. [18:25] ill just send it to you privately now [18:25] <@mirek2> alright [18:25]  okay [18:26] okay, check your inboxes [18:27] i would like to get this mail out to the design and marketing list, but i am not sure if some of its contents are too sensitive... [18:29]  overall I tend to agree with what you listed [18:29]  I don't know how this limited use of the logo could be enforced, though [18:30] <@mirek2> I don't think the contents are too sensitive -- go ahead and send it [18:30] <@mirek2> I agree with using Tango colors and with dropping the TDF byline [18:30]  yes, our color palette isn't splendid [18:31] <@mirek2> I don't agree with letting go of the logo for something more detailed [18:31] <@mirek2> I love that our logo can be drawn as a simple shape [18:31] <@mirek2> that's what's beautiful about it [18:31] @alex: mozilla is relatively successful and they occasionally win cases in court [18:32] <@mirek2> I wouldn't say we really need that kind of exclusivism [18:32] @mirek: sure, we need a logo that scales down to simple lines, but should also be able to scale up to something rather more detailed [18:33]  I wonder whether we could add substantial details at larger sizes [18:33] <@mirek2> I myself love simplistic logos [18:33] im sure a good graphical designer could :) [18:34] but it doesnt fit on a number of platforms: [18:34] * gnome [18:34] * kde [18:34] * android [18:34] <@mirek2> for Gnome and Android, how about making a slightly tilted 3d icon, based on http://developer.android.com/design/style/iconography.html? [18:34] windows <7 [18:34]  We could maybe ask Ian Hex for help - even though he currently doen't do logo design anymore [18:34] that should be windows <8 [18:35] <@mirek2> on windows, there's a myriad of styles, so that's not really something to target [18:35] * mac [18:35] * ios (well thats not so important now) [18:35] @mirek: slightly 3d is a wonderful idea [18:35] <@mirek2> if you look at the chat icon on http://developer.android.com/design/style/iconography.html, it's a very simplistic icon, yet its 3d tilt gives it a lot of detail [18:36]  Or should we do variations, adapting to each platform [18:36]  ? [18:37] essentially a good idea [18:37] (needs a graphic designer) [18:37] <@mirek2> yes [18:37] <@mirek2> do we agree, though, that we should keep the current shape? [18:37] also, one last point i forgot, its a bit weird that we use the same symbols for documents that we use for the apps [18:38]  so maybe we should create new ones for the apps [18:38] @mirek: i think we'll need to keep at least the top-right triangle, [18:38] <@mirek2> I don't think it's weird [18:38]  since the icons actually represent documents [18:39] <@mirek2> I haven't met a single person who was confused by this [18:39] <@mirek2> also, on a lot of platfroms, what the user sees of documents are usually thumbnails [18:39] <@mirek2> or tiny icons [18:40] right, there are often thumbnails [18:40] <@mirek2> I don't think separate document icons are really necessary [18:41] not necessary, no, but imo nice to have [18:41] <@mirek2> sure [18:42] <@mirek2> though I think we should focus on our toolbar icons first [18:42] right. [18:44] btw: heres an idea for a new logo lock-up and font [18:44] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Wackylogoidea-astron.png [18:44] (i made that a few weeks ago) [18:44] the logo itself is obviously still not what i'd want [18:44] <@mirek2> I like the monochrome logo [18:45]  yes, monochrome looks good, but that circle doesn't IMHO [18:45] good :) [18:45] <@mirek2> I think I prefer the current font we have [18:45] the circle is just there because that somehow makes it easier to center it vertically [18:46] mirek: well, thats sad. i really like lato [18:46] and that ligature there is even real [18:46] <@mirek2> I'll think about it [18:47] <@mirek2> Lato is really good for smaller sizes, but I'm not sure if it works in this size [18:47] <alexanderW> Design on Android and Windows is becoming pretty minimal and focused on typography, so I'd personally like to go in the direction of swiss design [18:47] <@mirek2> yes, I agree [18:48] <@mirek2> I think Vegur was a pretty good choice and it was something that made us unique among other open-source projects [18:48] <@mirek2> btw, NovaCut has taken Lato as their default font [18:48] oh. didnt know that [18:48] <@mirek2> not really a big issue, though [18:49] <@mirek2> there's room for both [18:49] i think so. [18:49] <@mirek2> maybe if the we used regular thickness... [18:49] although, now that im on the novacut page i see what you mean by "doesnt work at large sizes" [18:49] its a bit cutesy [18:50] == alexanderW [~alexander@dslb-094-220-239-081.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] [18:50] ah... so now its alex with the connexion problems [18:50] one of us always is... [18:51] <@mirek2> :) you never seem to be [18:51] well, when i was on my phone in the train it did happen too [18:51] (three(?) weeks ago) [18:51] <@mirek2> I understand that [18:52] == alexanderW [~alexander@dslb-094-220-239-081.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #libreoffice-design [18:53] youre back : [18:53] we didnt discuss anything much [18:53] just that one of us always has connectivity issues [18:53] <alexanderW> yes, I've got a notification system that hides notifications regarding the battery [18:54] <alexanderW> the laptop shut down [18:54] <alexanderW> What I wanted to mention are these videos: http://vimeo.com/25118844 http://vimeo.com/30698649 [18:55] <alexanderW> a bit kinetic typography, rather minimal. I'd love to see LO branding going in that direction [18:56] somehow doesnt load for me... odd [18:56] <@mirek2> maybe because vimeo doesn't support webm [18:56] <alexanderW> strange [18:56] <alexanderW> should be html5 [18:56] i should have flash installed [18:57] <@mirek2> yes, it supports html5, but only with h264 video [18:57] <@mirek2> it doesn't work for me either [18:57] will try in epiphany then [18:58] <@mirek2> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scNkLWV7jSw, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcAbqZaA88E [18:58] <@mirek2> got to love youtube [18:59] yep. [19:00] reminds me of that trusted computing video that was on one of the gnu websites sme time ago [19:00] http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5115609628556940516 [19:02] <@mirek2> I agree we should focus more on typography [19:02] <@mirek2> which is why the fact that we have to rely on MS-compatible fonts so frustrating [19:03] <alexanderW> not in the branding, though [19:03] <@mirek2> of course [19:03] still video is completely different from what we do [19:03] <@mirek2> yes [19:05] <@mirek2> anyway, about Lato: I'd be fine with it as long as we used the regular style instead of the heavy one [19:05] <@mirek2> book might be okay as well [19:06] will try [19:06] but its not ideal for tiered branding (but we could use colour there instead) [19:07] <@mirek2> yes, I think we should use color there [19:07] (btw: stuxnet video: theres a typo at 3:01) [19:08] <@mirek2> :) [19:08] <@mirek2> good one [19:08] <@mirek2> anyway, would regular Lato be ok for the logo, then? [19:09] sure. why not. [19:10] <@mirek2> how would you feel about some flatter branding? [19:10] still, my logo idea is just that, an idea [19:10] <@mirek2> and more minimalistic [19:11] well, it always depends on the purpose, if we want to have small size logos or are on an os where fits (win8 etc), yes, but otherwise we should have something that draws the eye a bit more [19:12] <@mirek2> I'm not talking about the icons, but more about the other branding stuff [19:12] <@mirek2> splash, about screen, start screen, for example [19:12] <alexanderW> yes [19:12] <@mirek2> the new ones use a gradient [19:12] <@mirek2> which we could theoretically flatten for 4.0 [19:13] <alexanderW> we should either use a very sublte gradient or a flat color I think [19:13] <@mirek2> I agree [19:13] ah, yes, they do. im in favour of using gradients, they should just be subtler than the ones we used in the past [19:13] (and present too) [19:13] adhering to "design is best when dont see it" [19:13] <alexanderW> Should the icon stay that colorful? [19:13] <@mirek2> so we're not really going for Swiss design, then [19:13] <@mirek2> right? [19:15] <alexanderW> not exclusively? [19:15] is there any good definition of everything that comprises swiss design? (actually i only ever heard of swiss typography so far9 [19:16] otherwise, we might be talking of different things [19:16] <alexanderW> I'm think a bit of this: http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2009/07/17/lessons-from-swiss-style-graphic-design/ [19:17] <alexanderW> Some designs look a bit dated but the rest is pretty timeless [19:17] <@mirek2> yes [19:18] ah, the fiat design is great one [19:19] <@mirek2> the swiss design just doesn't tend to include gradients [19:19] <@mirek2> or needless decorative elements [19:21] no, its about reducing "needless" elements but still finding a balnce [19:21] +a [19:21] → see the penrose annual example [19:22] are those rectangles on top really necessary? is the 52 necessary? [19:23] <@mirek2> which rectangles? which 52? [19:24] <alexanderW> I think the other example of penrose annual looks cleaner [19:24] <@mirek2> oh, sorry, looking at the wrong one [19:24] <alexanderW> http://www.flickr.com/photos/uppercaseyyc/3185771455/ [19:24] <@mirek2> in any case, not one example uses gradients [19:25] sure, because that was extremely hard to do at the time [19:25] <@mirek2> Swiss design, from my perspective, has always been about clean geometrical shapes [19:25] <@mirek2> and few colors [19:25] <@mirek2> astron247: not even modern examples of Swiss design include gradients [19:26] <@mirek2> perhaps the gradients were hard to do before, but their lack has come to define Swiss design [19:28] i see. i still wouldnt mind gradients as long as you dont see them at first blush [19:28] but thats a detail... and discussing that without anything to back it up is probably useless [19:28] <@mirek2> ok [19:28] <alexanderW> agree [19:29] so, yes, i like the general direction [19:29] (too) [19:29] <@mirek2> great :) [19:30] <@mirek2> anyway, is there anything in this area we should work on? [19:30] <@mirek2> start a new whiteboard? ask on the G+ page for Swiss designs of the about, splash, and start screens? [19:30] if youd like to come up with more designs, highly appreciated. also, we might want to ask on g+ for a logo designer..? [19:31] <alexanderW> Can we start a wiki page on that just to cellect ideas or should we keep it private as long as it's in this state [19:31] i wouldnt ask for a splash right now [19:31] <@mirek2> ok, I understand that [19:31] <alexanderW> Would seem a bit strange [19:31] <@mirek2> yes [19:31] alex: yes, one of the important bits is to coordinate with marketing on the overhaul [19:32] so not blurting it out might be good... [19:32] <@mirek2> yes [19:32] <@mirek2> does anyone attend the marketing calls? [19:32] ...but i dont know to then involve (outside) designers [19:32] i dont. actually, i didnt know there was one. [19:33] <alexanderW> Nor do I [19:33] <@mirek2> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/ConfCalls I found about them recently too [19:33] <@mirek2> found out [19:33] <@mirek2> it's a half-phone, half-IRC discussion, it seems [19:34] interesting. it seems to be open to anyone [19:35] <@mirek2> yes, though I'm not sure how often these calls happen [19:35] <@mirek2> once a month, apparently, but then their archive looks quite unmaintained [19:35] right [19:36] <@mirek2> nevermind, then, I guess [19:36] will write a mail to italo now.. [19:36] to find out. [19:36] <alexanderW> is he in the merketing team? [19:36] <alexanderW> *marketing [19:36] <@mirek2> I don't think these calls are happening anymore [19:37] <@mirek2> given that the last July 4th wasn't even a Monday [19:37] @mirek: july 4 last year (!) [19:37] <@mirek2> and the last edit was in february [19:38] <@mirek2> florian reisinger mentioned these calls, I was under the impression they were still going on [19:39] <@mirek2> but I guess not [19:39] <@mirek2> but please do ask whether the marketing team meets in any way [19:40] <@mirek2> anyway, should we move onto another topic? [19:40] <@mirek2> start https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Analyses/Global%20Options, perhaps? [19:40] ok, mail sent [19:41] <@mirek2> great :) [19:41] one thing before we go on to the options [19:41] i am a lazy slob and still havent sent the thing to raphael... [19:41] <@mirek2> which thing? [19:42] the icons [19:43] <@mirek2> which icons? [19:43] anyway, id still like to get that done. but the one issue i faced is how to do the "new template" icon... because putting a little orb somewhere on the document icon doesnt really work [19:43] (apologies to alex with whom i discussed this part last week already) [19:44] [ah, i should mention: the little orb usually sits on the top right where the triangle of the document sits too. putting it elsewhere makes the icon seem a bit noisy] [19:44] <@mirek2> I asked Lapo for help, which you probably noticed [19:45] yes. [19:45] <alexanderW> It's ok, I should've worked on it too [19:45] <alexanderW> did he answer? [19:45] <@mirek2> do we need the icons this soon? [19:45] <alexanderW> There's nothing on the ml [19:45] <@mirek2> yes, he did [19:45] <alexanderW> and what was his answer? [19:45] <@mirek2> Hi Mirek, I'll see what I can do, you know we already have official gnome template icons in gnome-icon-theme, right? [19:46] <@mirek2> to which I replied "Yes, but I think we'd prefer branded icons, just like we have with our filetype icons. It's great that you're willing to help out -- we really appreciate it. :)" [19:46] <@mirek2> that's the end of the conversation [19:46] right... i would love to use gnomes icons but that would just unermine our branding [19:46] +d [19:47] ugh... thats not so good. [19:47] <@mirek2> astron247: you sound like you have most of the icons done, given that you're already talking about sending them out [19:47] ive stolen most of the icons :) [19:47] <@mirek2> could you put them up on https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Tango_Icons, then? [19:47] <alexanderW> good for consistency [19:48] <@mirek2> so that designers can prioritize and there's no work duplication [19:48] also, rafael has ~weeks before gsoc ends [19:48] ah, yes, sorry forgot about the whiteboard [19:49] <@mirek2> if worse comes to worse, we could use dummy icons [19:49] <@mirek2> I've also given up on designing the dialog without a visible selection mode button [19:50] <alexanderW> I think pencils down is at 24th ? [19:50] so, then its three weeks [19:50] still... [19:50] <alexanderW> the remote control is making good progress [19:51] <@mirek2> yes [19:51] <@mirek2> looking back at our whiteboards, I wish we had done a bit more refining [19:52] <alexanderW> We've some quite big (and visual) stuff being developed this GsoC which means that there isn't a complete lack of UI news for 4.0 [19:52] <@mirek2> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Impress_remote could use a modal disconnection bar mockup, for example [19:53] uh, well import remote is a separate product [19:54] should read impress remote [19:54] <alexanderW> we could ask endrej whether has already implemented the disconnect functionality and if not, suggest to do it with a modal bar [19:54] <alexanderW> It's still part of LibreOffice [19:55] <@mirek2> the "disconnect" button in the Impress remote dialog is more important, though I don't know if that needs a mockup. [19:55] <@mirek2> But it should certainly be mentioned in the description -- I'll add that now [19:55] also, could either of you try to create an idea for an entry for impress remote such as Tools > Connect phone... or so? [19:56] (for the impress application itself) [19:56] <alexanderW> Would that be something other than the window that's already in the mockup? [19:58] <@mirek2> why not Tools > Impress Remote? [19:59] <@mirek2> or perhaps Impress Options > Impress Remote, after we restructure the Options dialog? [20:00] <@mirek2> I think Apple puts the remote in their Keynote Options dialog as well [20:00] <@mirek2> I'll be afk for just a few minutes [20:02] <@mirek2> I'm back [20:03] <alexanderW> rather not into the options [20:03] <@mirek2> ok [20:03] <@mirek2> theoretically, it could be shipped as an extension [20:04] <@mirek2> in any case, I'd vote for Tools > Impress Remote for now [20:05] <@mirek2> are there any refinements we want to make to our whiteboards before it's too late? [20:05] sorry for my absence [20:05] but impress remote sounds rather technical [20:05] <alexanderW> I could add add the modal bar [20:05] <@mirek2> isn't that what our app is going to be called? [20:05] yes, that too [20:06] <@mirek2> and won't it only work with that app, at least for now? [20:06] uh... well impress remote seems to me to be a bit of a lackluste name... [20:06] <@mirek2> are you suggesting we use a different name for the app or just for the dialog? [20:07] <@mirek2> what would you name the app? [20:07] <@mirek2> I think it makes the most sense [20:07] okay, i think it should mention libreoffice, because impress will not ring anyones bells [20:07] <@mirek2> it's a remote for Impress -- how clearer can you get? [20:07] :) [20:07] <@mirek2> LibreOffice Impress Remote? LibreOffice Presentation Remote? That's worse than Impress remote... [20:08] <@mirek2> To LibreOffice users, Impress should ring a bell [20:08] <@mirek2> and we're not targeting any other users [20:09] <@mirek2> theoretically, we could name the dialog "Connect to Phone..." and then advertise the app within that dialog [20:09] hm, well, but consider the case that people might actually find impress remote in the play store first and then learn about libreoffice [20:10] @mirek: yes [20:10] <alexanderW> LibreOffice Presenter [20:10] <alexanderW> ? [20:10] <@mirek2> that sounds like another name for Impress, not like a remote application for Impress [20:10] sounds too much like a presentation software not like a more "add-on"y type of app [20:11] <alexanderW> hm, yes [20:11] <alexanderW> OT: here's the presentation from last IRC's task list: http://ubuntuone.com/1aKY3GaYyEui288AHwu9IT [20:12] https://play.google.com/store/search?q=remote+control&c=apps [20:12] <@mirek2> the app would mention LibreOffice in its description, it doesn't have to mention it in name [20:12] @alex: hehe, nice, even you used gradient [20:12] s [20:14] <alexanderW> yes, but it doesn't get rendered in fullscreen mode [20:14] <alexanderW> and IMHO the stripes sre too thin [20:14] <@mirek2> are the squares in the bottom right corner necessary? [20:14] <@mirek2> imho, they just add unnecessary noise [20:14] <alexanderW> :) [20:15] <@mirek2> in a presentation, it should be the content that gets the most attention [20:15] <alexanderW> not neccesary [20:15] alex smiles, because i asked the same last week [20:15] <@mirek2> :) [20:15] <@mirek2> in general, I think our Impress templates should be as minimal as possible [20:16] <@mirek2> to bring out the content and not distract [20:16] <alexanderW> yes [20:16] <@mirek2> I still really like http://spiceofdesign.deviantart.com/#/d52vby2 [20:17] <@mirek2> too bad we can't really do much typography-wise [20:17] <alexanderW> His designs are great indeed [20:18] actually, theres another problem with the type on his designs: most of the fonts are latin only and dont work with greek or cyrillic (let alone cjk or so) [20:18] <@mirek2> true [20:18] (the ubuntu font being the exception) [20:18] (roboto, too) [20:19] <@mirek2> libreoffice should switch to a different font if the one used doesn't have the glyphs needed [20:20] <@mirek2> but I agree that the default templates should use fonts that work for all languages [20:20] <alexanderW> doesn't Liberation support other scripts? [20:21] <alexanderW> ah, misunderstood it [20:21] <@mirek2> yes, it does [20:22] <@mirek2> anyway, are there any names you were thinking of for the remote, Astron? [20:22] well, all languages is pretty hard, but latin, cyrillic and greek should be possible [20:22] <@mirek2> yes [20:22] Remote for LibreOffice? [20:22] Remote for LibreOffice Impress? [20:22] sorry, ill have to go now and will be afk for some time [20:23] <alexanderW> ok bye [20:23] <alexanderW> thanks [20:23] <@mirek2> ok, bye [20:23] <@mirek2> I suppose it's not ok to analyze the options now [20:24] <@mirek2> are there any topics we could discuss? [20:24] <alexanderW> it's a pretty big task [20:24] <@mirek2> not really [20:25] <@mirek2> we're not talking about redesigning the dialog yet, just determining which options we want in the normal dialog, which in the advanced dialog, and which ones we want to let go [20:25] <alexanderW> the number of options isn't too small I mean [20:25] <@mirek2> sure [20:26] <alexanderW> by let go, do you also mean code-wise or just hiding it in an about opotions page? [20:26] <@mirek2> I mean code-wise [20:26] <@mirek2> by advanced dialog, I meant the "about:config" page [20:27] <alexanderW> so no key:value settings page? [20:27] <alexanderW> ah [20:27] <alexanderW> that's what I meant, too [20:27] <alexanderW> yeah, we can go through the options [20:28] <@mirek2> alright [20:28] <@mirek2> I suppose Astron can dispute our decisions afterwards and we can discuss it more next week [20:29] <alexanderW> ok [20:29] <@mirek2> the wiki page also only deals with global options, so we'll still have plenty to talk about later [20:29] <@mirek2> first name, last name [20:30] <alexanderW> I fell like the user data shouldn't really be part of the options [20:30] <@mirek2> I think this data is used in a number of ways, though [20:30] <alexanderW> *feel [20:30] <@mirek2> like automatically putting in document metadata [20:30] <alexanderW> I know. [20:31] <alexanderW> Ideally we could connect to libfolks, outlook, Contacts [20:31] <alexanderW> But that's not realistic I guess [20:31] <@mirek2> and not everyone uses those [20:31] <@mirek2> I personally always resort to web apps for that kind of stuff [20:32] <@mirek2> I can't really make an informed decision before I know exactly what the data is used for [20:32] <alexanderW> As you said for automatically filling in fields [20:32] <alexanderW> I don't think it's used for anything else [20:33] <@mirek2> yes, but I'd like to know exactly which features [20:33] <@mirek2> perhaps some templates or wizards rely on it? [20:33] <@mirek2> honestly, I don't know [20:33] <@mirek2> but I would also like to get rid of it if possible [20:34] <alexanderW> The letter wizard does [20:34] <@mirek2> perhaps we should skip this, until we can make a more informed decision? [20:34] <alexanderW> okay [20:34] <@mirek2> okay [20:35] <@mirek2> year (two digits) [20:35] <@mirek2> advanced, I would say [20:35] <alexanderW> ? [20:35] <alexanderW> ah [20:35] <alexanderW> yes, I agree [20:35] <@mirek2> ok [20:36] <alexanderW> Same for LibreOffice dialogs [20:36] <@mirek2> should I edit as we go along? [20:36] <alexanderW> Please [20:36] <@mirek2> ok [20:37] <alexanderW> I think macro recoding should stay [20:37] <alexanderW> experimental features of course be a advanced option [20:37] <alexanderW> *an [20:38] <@mirek2> where are you? [20:38] <@mirek2> the only option I see around macros is "Macro security" [20:39] <alexanderW> are you using 3.6? [20:39] <@mirek2> the whole page is done according to the LibreOffice Help pages [20:39] <@mirek2> I guess those aren't up-to-date enough [20:39] <alexanderW> apparently [20:39] <@mirek2> could you look through the options and update what's necessary? [20:40] <alexanderW> yes [20:40] <@mirek2> I'm still on 3.5 [20:41] <alexanderW> ok [20:41] <alexanderW> it'll take some time [20:42] <@mirek2> that's ok [20:54] == astron247 [~frootzowr@dslb-188-103-143-159.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: astron247] [20:56] == astron247 [~frootzowr@dslb-188-103-143-159.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #libreoffice-design [20:58] <alexanderW> hi [20:58] hello again... [20:58] <alexanderW> @ mirek: I think it takes longer than expected [20:58] <@mirek2> ok [20:59] <alexanderW> I was adding options to the wiki page for the cleanup [20:59] <alexanderW> I can continue to work on that, but it's too much to get it done now [20:59] <@mirek2> ok [20:59] <@mirek2> let's work with what we have now, then [21:00] <@mirek2> integrate the new bits later [21:00] <@mirek2> let's start from the beginning [21:00] <alexanderW> yes [21:00] <@mirek2> astron, what do you think about user data in the dialog? [21:01] <@mirek2> from my own experience, I would say it should go in the advanced dialog, but I'm afraid that it's important for some features I don't use [21:02] cut it to whats really necessary (i.e. first, last name) and offer everything else in a new window maybe [21:02] <@mirek2> can you think of any features that need this section in the Optoins? [21:02] <@mirek2> ok, that was my first thought as well [21:02] <@mirek2> that's why I presented them the way I did [21:02] yes, the file properties contains the first and last name by default and some letter template probably use it too [21:03] actually, can you give me the link to your whiteboard again? [21:03] <@mirek2> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Analyses/Global_Options#Macro_Security [21:03] ah thanks [21:04] <@mirek2> in any case "Other user data" should still be accessible from the common options dialog, right? [21:04] <@mirek2> according to what you're saying [21:04] <@mirek2> I would actually prefer to file it under "Advanced" [21:05] <@mirek2> thoughts? [21:06] i think it should be accessible, but it should be in a new (modal) window. [21:06] by advanced, i assume you mean the about:config like thing? [21:06] <@mirek2> yes [21:06] <@mirek2> right now, we're not talking design details, just where the functionality belongs [21:07] <@mirek2> you're saying it's generic [21:07] <alexanderW> Maybe with an arrow that turns [21:07] <alexanderW> like in the update dialog of ubuntu [21:07] ah... no, id say contextual [21:07] <@mirek2> again, not talking implementation details [21:08] maybe – though, setting it up the first time you open up the letter wizard might be clumsy [21:09] <@mirek2> why clumsy? I would say it'd be contextual [21:09] <@mirek2> the user should be asked if to save his data when working with the data [21:10] <@mirek2> or to save changes to his data when editing the data [21:11] oh my... whats wrong with the suse people... why are they shipping your statusbar icons in 3.5 already? dammit. [21:11] the rulers are their 3.6 versions too [21:12] <@mirek2> what's wrong with that? [21:13] <alexanderW> 3.5.5? [21:13] <@mirek2> is it just because you don't particularly like the monochrome icons? [21:14] well, i assume those are not the only changes theyve made to the vanilla 3.5 which means theyre essentially shipping a completely different product [21:14] <@mirek2> hold on -- you mean SuSE ships with its own version of LibreOffice? [21:15] yes. [21:15] <alexanderW> every distro does [21:15] <alexanderW> afaik [21:15] <alexanderW> e.g. the loading bar on ubuntu was orange instead of white [21:15] <@mirek2> really? I thought most distros just shipped with vanilla LibreOffice [21:16] <alexanderW> it shipped additional masterpages, different icon i think [21:16] sure, but distros like ubuntu ship ~almost vanilla builds, while apparently opensuse ships with sth considerably different [21:16] <@mirek2> ok [21:16] <@mirek2> and they still label it 3.5.4? [21:17] @alexander: well, ubuntu used a different default theme, and different templates ... which is fine to me [21:17] @mirek: LibreOffice 3.5:build-403 [21:17] <@mirek2> ok [21:18] <@mirek2> honestly, I don't think it's that bad [21:18] actually, the first time i started it i almost got a heart attack because someone at suse thought its funny to redo our logo in arial [21:18] <@mirek2> after all, those were just some basic design changes [21:18] <@mirek2> :D [21:18] <@mirek2> in the splash? [21:18] <@mirek2> on the start center? [21:18] <@mirek2> where? [21:19] everywhere [21:19] <@mirek2> hm, odd [21:19] [btw: i am now a suse intern (for the next two months at least) though not working on libreoffice, but their documentation.] [21:20] <@mirek2> :) cool [21:20] <@mirek2> anyway, how about we get back to the options [21:20] <alexanderW> Did you mention your concerns? [21:20] not so far... [21:21] i mentioned the arial logo to thorsten though [21:21] anyway.. the letter wizard does not actually pick up my address, only my name [21:22] <alexanderW> So either it's a bug or the address should definitely belong to the advanced options [21:22] <@mirek2> I would completely let go of the Fax field... what do you think? [21:23] that seems to be a dying technology, so yes [21:23] <alexanderW> yes [21:24] <@mirek2> so: name-generic; fax-unnecessary; other data: ? [21:24] <@mirek2> generic or advanced? [21:24] <alexanderW> Maybe use Private/Business phone number [21:25] <alexanderW> advanced [21:25] <@mirek2> and astron, you're saying generic, right? [21:26] id say no to advanced, the three categories i could imagine it falling into would: generic, unnecessary or contextual [21:26] i would think its mostly generic though [21:27] <@mirek2> discuss later, then? [21:27] okay [21:27] <@mirek2> alright [21:27] but does either of you have 3.6 on their pc right now? [21:28] <@mirek2> alex does, I don't [21:28] alex, could you fill in your address info please and then try to see if the letter wizard uses that info for you? [21:28] <alexanderW> I'll try [21:28] id like to open a bug then [21:30] <alexanderW> It is being used [21:31] ah, yeah, just noticed that with formal letter its used. [21:31] thanks! [21:31] <alexanderW> But it's pretty ugly [21:31] formal _personal_ letter [21:31] <@mirek2> ok [21:31] sure, depends on your template [21:32] <@mirek2> what about tips? [21:32] <@mirek2> I'd say advanced [21:32] i would have said that should always be on [21:32] → unnecessary [21:33] <@mirek2> me too [21:33] <@mirek2> ok, I agree with unnecessary then [21:33] <@mirek2> alex? [21:33] but the problem is that libreoffice tooltips can be more annoying than other softwares tooltips [21:33] something needs to be done about that too [21:34] <@mirek2> I've had them on for a long while and they've never annoyed me [21:34] <alexanderW> unneccssary [21:34] <@mirek2> in which cases are they annoying? [21:34] e.g scroll through a long document and see them flicker ... [21:34] sometimes theyre also rather persistent [21:35] <alexanderW> ah, these tooltips [21:35] <@mirek2> ok, but that should be solved by improving the behavior, not by a "turn off tips" option, right? [21:36] absolutely [21:36] <@mirek2> so "unnecessary", then [21:37] <@mirek2> extended tips? [21:37] <@mirek2> I'd say "advanced" [21:38] <@mirek2> not sure if anyone uses this feature [21:38] <@mirek2> especially as the help text is often not that helpful [21:39] <@mirek2> thoughts? [21:39] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Whiteboards/KillOptions [21:39] <alexanderW> advanced, yes [21:39] see the section on the tips for my proposal [21:40] essentially, the option is imo unnecessary, but it also needs better behaviour [21:40] <@mirek2> ok [21:41] <@mirek2> help agent [21:41] and could then be always on [21:41] <@mirek2> yes, I agree [21:41] <@mirek2> unless this would pull data off the net [21:42] <@mirek2> Help should be local in this case [21:42] or, you could ship the extended tips with libo instead of with the help file [21:43] <@mirek2> sure, that would work [21:43] okay. help agent... [21:44] i think its likely that no one wants it in its current form... amiright? [21:44] <@mirek2> I think so [21:44] but actually, its the only nonmodal way of informing the user we have so far [21:45] and apparently it also "learns" [21:45] <@mirek2> I doubt people use it [21:46] <@mirek2> I would vote for "Advanced" [21:46] <@mirek2> honestly, in my experience, people who don't know how to use software give up rather than click Help [21:47] well the useful function it has is that it informs you when its made [21:47] * one [21:47] * two [21:47] into a bulleted list and such [21:48] <alexanderW> Isn't that obvious? [21:49] a) probably not in every case the app does that and not to every user [21:49] b) it tells you how to undo (i think) [21:50] <@mirek2> frankly, I'd say the agent should go the way of Clippy [21:51] actually i cant get it to work right now, so yes, let it join clippy [21:52] <@mirek2> unnecessary, then? [21:52] yup [21:53] <@mirek2> alex? [21:54] <alexanderW> agree [21:54] <@mirek2> ok [21:54] <@mirek2> stylesheet? [21:54] <@mirek2> unnecessary, I would say [21:54] <@mirek2> can't imagine anyone would like to theme their help [21:55] <@mirek2> on HC themes, the stylesheet should autoadjust, of course [21:55] stylesheet? where is that setting? [21:55] <alexanderW> can't find it either [21:56] <@mirek2> :) I've been using the official Help documentation to make the wiki page [21:57] seems like this has already been removed... mission accomplished, then [21:57] <@mirek2> I guess I should erase this, then? [21:57] yes [21:57] can you open a bug to update that part of the help, please? (yo ucan assign to me if you like) [21:59] <@mirek2> could you do it, please? [21:59] okay [21:59] <@mirek2> thanks a ton :) [22:01] <@mirek2> open/save dialogs [22:01] <@mirek2> advanced, I think [22:02] <alexanderW> yes [22:02] <alexanderW> only needed in corporate environments I think [22:02] yup [22:02] <@mirek2> ok [22:03] interestingly, some home users want that too... as they deliver some features not found in some of the native dialogues (ftp, cmis) [22:03] <@mirek2> oh, didn't know that [22:03] <alexanderW> ah [22:03] <@mirek2> libreoffice dialogs [22:03] <@mirek2> suppose it only applies to "Print..." [22:03] <alexanderW> yes [22:04] <@mirek2> advanced, I would say [22:04] <alexanderW> yes [22:05] <alexanderW> does it only become effective after restarting [22:05] <alexanderW> ? [22:05] no..? i think [22:05] <alexanderW> hm [22:06] oh well, for print that seems to be true [22:06] no, it doesnt happen for me. [22:06] <alexanderW> stays the same for some reason [22:06] maybe thats because im using gnome 3? but surely the gnome2 print dialogue is still available... [22:07] whatever [22:07] <alexanderW> there#s a gnome 3 print dialog [22:07] <@mirek2> Printing sets "document modified" status [22:07] <alexanderW> nonsense IMHO [22:08] <@mirek2> advanced, then? [22:08] <alexanderW> yes [22:08] <@mirek2> it looks like one of those options that was triggered by a user complaint [22:08] <@mirek2> astron [22:09] <@mirek2> ? [22:09] <@mirek2> thoughts? [22:11] sorry [22:12] this one is really tough. personally, i dont need it but you might remember the discussion we had with kohei on the zoom settings [22:12] <@mirek2> right [22:12] <alexanderW> ah [22:12] (similarly, this means that some of the print settings are saved) [22:12] <@mirek2> I still think it falls under "Advanced" [22:12] okay [22:13] <@mirek2> advanced it is, then [22:13] but, maybe we can make it contextual? [22:13] <@mirek2> how? [22:13] it should rather be a setting thats stored in the user's home than in the doc [22:14] ah forget about contextual... [22:14] <@mirek2> ok [22:14] <@mirek2> year (two digits) [22:14] unnecessary, because it would be automatically saved in the users home... [22:14] <alexanderW> should be advances [22:14] <alexanderW> *advanced [22:15] <@mirek2> I'd say advanced as well [22:15] <@mirek2> astron, why unnecessary? [22:16] because, you wouldnt save it in the document itself and then you wouldnt need to be able to turn that option off or on, you just save in the home directory [22:16] (i was still on the previous item) [22:17] but for the two digit year setting → agree with advanced [22:17] <@mirek2> sorry, I don't really follow your logic with the printing option [22:18] well, okay... [22:19] * so, is storing the print settings within the document itself really useful? no, because whenever you send it to another user those settings are sure to be different for her [22:19] <@mirek2> but these settings aren't stored in the document, afaik [22:20] they are, thats the whole point of the setting [22:20] <@mirek2> it's a local setting that counts printing as a change [22:20] (or well, maybe the whole point of the setting is to update timestamps..?) [22:20] <@mirek2> so that the user could save it again and thus change the document's print date metadata [22:20] <@mirek2> yes, that's how I understood it [22:21] well, thats useless. [22:21] <@mirek2> but it seems like an option that was specifically brought about by a user complaint [22:21] why would you want to do that? [22:21] <@mirek2> so I'd leave it in [22:21] <@mirek2> under Advanced, of course [22:22] <@mirek2> so is Advanced ok? [22:23] sure.. [22:23] <@mirek2> alex? [22:24] <alexanderW> yes [22:24] <@mirek2> ok [22:24] <@mirek2> Experimental features [22:24] (btw: the Stylesheet option is thankfully already gone in master.) [22:24] <@mirek2> advanced, I think [22:24] <alexanderW> macros should stay in the default selection [22:24] yes. [22:24] why that? [22:25] <alexanderW> I guess it's being used quite a .lot in offices [22:25] <alexanderW> in 3.6 experimental features and macros are seperated [22:25] but its just the macro _recorder_. [22:26] <alexanderW> hm [22:26] <alexanderW> probably true [22:26] that is, you can still type a macro and then execute it [22:26] <alexanderW> okay [22:27] the only thing that doesnt work is turning the recorder on and then typing something, formatting it and then saving that as a macro [22:27] <@mirek2> advanced then? [22:27] <alexanderW> if it's really not used that much it should be advaced [22:28] <@mirek2> and macro recording? [22:28] <@mirek2> advanced as well? [22:28] yes. [22:28] <@mirek2> alex? [22:29] <@mirek2> definitive yes? [22:29] <alexanderW> yes [22:29] <alexanderW> I'm getting slower and slower... [22:30] <@mirek2> number of undo steps [22:30] <@mirek2> advanced, imho [22:30] set it higher and its unnecessary [22:30] <@mirek2> how high? [22:30] <alexanderW> how much higher? [22:31] i wrote 250 on killoptions... but unlimited would be great [22:31] <@mirek2> ok [22:32] <@mirek2> graphics cache: Use for LibreOffice (MB) [22:32] <@mirek2> advanced? [22:32] <@mirek2> btw, I labeled the former "Unnecessary" -- is that ok? [22:32] to me, yes. [22:32] <alexanderW> yes [22:32] and the rest of this options page should be, too [22:33] but see the interesting discussion with regina on killoptions [22:33] <@mirek2> should be unnecessary or advanced? [22:34] unnecessary [22:35] <@mirek2> alright, I'll take a look at the killoptions conversation [22:37] <@mirek2> (sorry if I seem a bit slow, I'm trying to multitask) [22:38] <@mirek2> I personally would like this to be under Advanced [22:39] well, then. [22:40] whatever, at least its out of most users way [22:40] <@mirek2> since it's important for the usability of the software, albeit for a few geeky people with bad hardware [22:40] <@mirek2> I mean, with certain types of file, LibreOffice could become unusable without a good memory setting [22:44] <@mirek2> so Advanced, then? [22:44] <@mirek2> (sorry for slowness, again) [22:44] <alexanderW> I think so [22:44] <@mirek2> ok [22:44] <@mirek2> great [22:45] <@mirek2> for the whole memory, I mean [22:45] <@mirek2> scaling [22:46] <@mirek2> advanced or unnecessary, imho [22:46] <@mirek2> should take OS values [22:47] <@mirek2> + works only on text, not on anything else [22:47] <@mirek2> I don't really think it works well at all [22:47] <alexanderW> agree [22:47] <@mirek2> I'd vote for unnecessary [22:47] yeah, id vote for that too. [22:48] unfortunately, the os controls are not always enough for libreoffice [22:48] (apparently) [22:48] <@mirek2> unnecessary, then [22:49] again, there is already some discussion and two (smewhat dubitable) use cases on killoptions [22:49] <@mirek2> I read it [22:51] <@mirek2> I don't think it really makes much sense for accessibility if the OS it's on is otherwise inaccessible for the user [22:51] <@mirek2> i.e. if the user can't magnify and therefore has trouble reading the text in other applications, he should probably change his OS [22:52] <@mirek2> doesn't make sense to provide an extra accessibility option there [22:53] okay... [22:53] id personally like to go now... [22:55] <@mirek2> ok, let's stop here then [22:55] <@mirek2> continue next week, though I might not be here [22:56] <@mirek2> so continue without me [22:56] okay... till then. [22:56] <@mirek2> unless there are more important things to cover [22:56] <@mirek2> I'll put up the log [22:56] <@mirek2> bye now [22:56] thanks. [22:56] bye [22:56] == astron247 [~frootzowr@dslb-188-103-143-159.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #libreoffice-design [] [22:57] <alexanderW> shall we end the IRC chat? [23:00] <alexanderW> bye