Design/Meetings/2012-07-21

Attendees

 * Astron
 * alexanderW
 * Mirek2

Everyone

 * Work on icons for the Template dialog.

alexanderW

 * Contact Daniel Foré about elementary's "Tools" icon after we know what to license it.
 * Talk with Astron about who will take ESC calls in the next few weeks.

Astron

 * Look if there are Gnome icon authors on the Gnome IRC.

Mirek2

 * Work on gradient proposal for the color handling whiteboard.
 * Ask Michael about licensing all artwork under cc-by from now on.
 * Start a color scheme whiteboard and thread.
 * Contact Lapo about the new Template dialog icons.

Log
[17:58]  Hi [18:03] <@mirek2> hello [18:03] <@mirek2> astron's notcoming [18:04]  ah ok [18:04]  The icons are in [18:04] <@mirek2> right [18:04] <@mirek2> happy about that [18:04] <@mirek2> also, it seems like I won't be here for a couple of weeks [18:05]  alright [18:05]  I think I'll have internet most of the time [18:05] <@mirek2> it'd be great if you could ask astron about the ESC calls [18:05]  ok [18:05] <@mirek2> and if one of you took care of these meetings [18:05]  yes [18:05] <@mirek2> on the other hand, I'm not even sure these meetings are necessary right now [18:05] <@mirek2> there's not much going on [18:06]  Not much tto discuss, maybe on what we want to focus for the next release [18:06] <@mirek2> so... anything we should discuss? [18:06] <@mirek2> well, that depends on the developers [18:06] <@mirek2> but we should make some whiteboards for them [18:07] <@mirek2> on that note, I haven't made any progress with the Options dialog yet [18:07] <@mirek2> I hope to get around to it sometime [18:07]  ah, doesn't matter too much, I guess [18:07]  http://ubuntuone.com/0EAkIYmqoUWv4iNXkShZBb [18:07]  I changed some settings for the diagram defaults [18:08]  IMHO they look better that way, what do you think? [18:08] <@mirek2> honestly, I don't recall what the old ones look like [18:09]  the right one uses the default colors, has these blurred edges and is non-perspective [18:09]  and the lightning isn't that great [18:10] <@mirek2> so the one on the left is your proposal, the one on the right the current? [18:10]  yes [18:11]  It would be great if could work with a dev who could also improve the anti-aliasing [18:11] <@mirek2> honestly, I don't think using different shades of a single color is a good thing for graphs [18:12] <@mirek2> hm... LibreOffice keeps crashing, don't know why [18:12] <alexanderW> Well, we could also use some other hues, but the current defaults look rather dated [18:12] <alexanderW> th RC? [18:13] <@mirek2> no, a stable version, but I think it's actually Ubuntu's fault [18:13] <@mirek2> no matter [18:14] <alexanderW> The whole color management matters in this regard [18:14] <@mirek2> so you'd like to change the color palette? [18:14] <@mirek2> I agree -- that whiteboard should be finished up [18:14] <alexanderW> That would be an easy 'fix' [18:15] <@mirek2> the diagram colors should use the default color scheme [18:16] <@mirek2> so... should we have a separate whiteboard for a color scheme? [18:16] <@mirek2> are there any characteristics we'd like the colors to have? [18:16] <alexanderW> I'm not sure if we couldn't put it into color management [18:16] <@mirek2> I suppose they shouldn't clash with Tango [18:16] <alexanderW> Olivier Hallot suggested to use something like this: http://colorschemedesigner.com/ [18:17] <alexanderW> for tables/diagrams etc [18:17] <@mirek2> I think we should first stick to our current feature range [18:17] <@mirek2> a color scheme designer is a feature in itself, and not really an easyhack at that [18:18] <@mirek2> we should, of course, leave room for a color scheme designer [18:18] <alexanderW> true, it'd be great if that could later be added to the management [18:19] <@mirek2> in any case, the current color management whiteboard is about changing the color management UI [18:19] <@mirek2> picking the color scheme is another matter and deserves its own whiteboard [18:19] <@mirek2> creating a color scheme designer is yet another matter, and also deserves its whiteboard [18:19] <alexanderW> Yes [18:20] <@mirek2> we could set the former up now, since it's likely to be implemented once we have a design [18:20] <@mirek2> the latter I'm not so sure about [18:21] <@mirek2> since it's hard to find developers interested in design-related stuff [18:21] <alexanderW> Could you start a thread on the list? [18:21] <@mirek2> and since it's useless before we have a better color management UI [18:21] <alexanderW> sure [18:21] <@mirek2> about the color scheme? sure [18:21] <alexanderW> Did you already work on the icons for Rafael? [18:22] <@mirek2> hm, not yet [18:22] <@mirek2> sorry [18:22] <@mirek2> I'm quite busy [18:22] <alexanderW> should we discuss them a bit and work at the same time? [18:22] <@mirek2> alright [18:23] <@mirek2> also here are previous color scheme drafts for OO.o https://www.openoffice.org/ui/VisualDesign/OOoChart_colors_drafts.html [18:23] <alexanderW> Create template, import template, [18:23] <alexanderW> search, move up, move to folder, file properties, edit, remove, menu. [18:24] <alexanderW> also for the action menu (the one with the [18:24] <alexanderW> three dots), the icon for the selection mode button and an icon for the [18:24] <alexanderW> online repository button in the toolbar [18:24] <@mirek2> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Tango_Icons [18:24] <@mirek2> the other ones are commented out [18:24] <@mirek2> so... create template: template icon and a plus symbol? [18:25] <alexanderW> yes [18:25] <alexanderW> within the document? [18:25] <alexanderW> or lower right [18:26] <@mirek2> lower right [18:26] <alexanderW> colored? [18:26] <@mirek2> I'd prefer a gray one [18:27] <alexanderW> I think a bit of color would be good [18:27] <@mirek2> alternatively, we could stick with the current "create document" symbolism, which just shows the document icon without anything to indicate "create", but I don't think that'd be good [18:27] <alexanderW> we can make both designs and decide later [18:27] <@mirek2> sure [18:27] <@mirek2> do you have the template icon you designed with astron? [18:28] <@mirek2> I know he sent it to me, but I can't find it right now [18:28] <alexanderW> I'm looking for it [18:29] <alexanderW> hm [18:30] <@mirek2> got it [18:30] <@mirek2> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/87946285/libreoffice/presconf.zip [18:30] <alexanderW> cool, thanks [18:32] <alexanderW> for import, we could use this icon plus an arrow like this one: http://elementaryos.org/sites/default/files/user/5/document-export-128.png [18:32] <@mirek2> honestly, that arrow looks more like "share" to me [18:33] <alexanderW> the g+ share [18:33] <alexanderW> hm, maybe turn it then? [18:33] <@mirek2> maybe use a straight arrow? [18:33] <@mirek2> with a rectangular end? [18:34] <alexanderW> maybe, but I'd prefer something 'dynamic' [18:35] <@mirek2> but import/export isn't a dynamic action in itself [18:35] <@mirek2> unlike share or redo [18:36] <@mirek2> in plain language, import/export just means movement [18:36] <@mirek2> without change [18:36] <alexanderW> yes [18:37] <@mirek2> two designs here as well, I guess :) [18:37] <alexanderW> ok :) [18:38] <alexanderW> for search we can use the gnome icon [18:38] <@mirek2> yes [18:38] <@mirek2> on second thought, a colored plus icon would probably fit more with the Tango spirit [18:39] <alexanderW> that's what I thought [18:39] <alexanderW> ah, we need to use the tango palette [18:39] <@mirek2> yes [18:39] <@mirek2> :) I realized what you meant by looking at your "download template" icon [18:40] <@mirek2> I originally imagined something more like Android's create icons, where the plus icon and the document symbol don't overlap [18:41] <@mirek2> "move up" -- does this have a Gnome icon? [18:41] <alexanderW> the document would be quite small in that case [18:41] <alexanderW> yes [18:41] <alexanderW> at least an arrow I think [18:41] <@mirek2> I was imagining the plus icon to be small, like 3x3 px [18:42] <alexanderW> same here [18:42] <alexanderW> how big may these be? [18:43] <@mirek2> the icons? they'll be standard 22x22 icons [18:43] <alexanderW> ok [18:43] <@mirek2> about the plus icon -- I was talking about the non-overlapping version [18:43] <@mirek2> and, realistically, it'd have to be more like 5x5 [18:44] <@mirek2> anyway, about "move up" [18:44] <@mirek2> it's an action that moves selected templates up in hierarchy [18:44] <@mirek2> to the "home" folder [18:44] <@mirek2> what icon should we use for that? [18:45] <@mirek2> a template with an icon moving up? [18:45] == astron [59cc8a7d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.204.138.125] has joined #libreoffice-design [18:45] <@mirek2> hey astron [18:45] <alexanderW> Hi astron [18:45] <@mirek2> glad you could make it [18:45] hi [18:45] well [i am] on my phone only [18:45] <alexanderW> we're discussing the template picker icons [18:46] <@mirek2> the "move up" icon right now, specifically [18:46] <@mirek2> it's an action that moves selected templates up in hierarchy [18:46] <@mirek2> what would be a good metaphor for that? [18:46] <@mirek2> a template with an icon pointing up? [18:47] <@mirek2> I mean, with an arrow above it pointing up [18:48] <@mirek2> thoughts? [18:48] right [18:48] in the file picker i used just up arrows [18:49] <alexanderW> i think that'd be enough [18:49] <@mirek2> it isn't a navigation icon, though [18:49] <@mirek2> but I guess it wouldn't be understood as such in the context [18:49] <@mirek2> ok, it's settled then [18:50] ah youre right: different function, different icon [18:50] <@mirek2> though it should be visually distinctive from the regular navigation arrows [18:50] <@mirek2> so... ? [18:51] <@mirek2> perhaps we ought to rename the button? [18:51] <alexanderW> rename? [18:51] <@mirek2> "Move home"? [18:51] <@mirek2> "Remove from folder"? [18:52] <@mirek2> "Move out of folder"? [18:52] <alexanderW> Will the text be displayed? [18:53] <@mirek2> most likely [18:53] <@mirek2> though we shouldn't count on it [18:53] <alexanderW> If that's the case we can probably use the gnome icon I think [18:54] == astron [59cc8a7d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.204.138.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] [18:54] <@mirek2> the navigational icon should be distinctive from the "move up" icon [18:54] <@mirek2> every icon should have just one function [18:54] <@mirek2> and since Gnome has no "move out of folder" icon, we would need to redesign this one anyway [18:55] <alexanderW> okay [18:55] <alexanderW> so maybe a folder plus the arrow? [18:55] <@mirek2> arrow pointing where? [18:56] <alexanderW> up [18:56] <@mirek2> perhaps an upside down folder with the arrow pointing down? [18:56] <@mirek2> just seems more natural for "move out of folder" [18:56] <@mirek2> as if you're physically emptying it out of the folder [18:56] == astron1 [59cc8a7d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.204.138.125] has joined #libreoffice-design [18:57] <@mirek2> hello again [18:57] <alexanderW> I'd go with the folder not being turned [18:57] <alexanderW> Hi [18:57] <@mirek2> we could make the icon and then simply flip it to compare [18:57] <alexanderW> okay [18:58] <@mirek2> move to folder [18:59] <@mirek2> (just to clarify, this could be from a folder to another folder) [18:59] <@mirek2> does Gnome have a "Move" icon? [18:59] <alexanderW> two folders with an arrow? [18:59] <@mirek2> I suppose [19:00] <@mirek2> might look strange as an icon, though [19:00] in the somewhat likely case that im kicked out [again] i will consider it final... [19:00] <@mirek2> perhaps just an arrow pointing to a folder? [19:00] <alexanderW> that will probably do [19:00] <@mirek2> ok [19:00] <@mirek2> file properties [19:01] <@mirek2> does Gnome have an icon for this? [19:01] yep [19:01] <@mirek2> great [19:01] <@mirek2> let's use that [19:01] <alexanderW> good [19:01] <@mirek2> "edit" [19:01] doc+tool as overlay [19:01] <@mirek2> what kind of tool [19:01] <@mirek2> a pencil? [19:02] <alexanderW> yes [19:02] <@mirek2> I believe that's what we had in LibO [19:02] <alexanderW> maybe the gedit icon? [19:02] <@mirek2> for edit mode [19:02] <@mirek2> we should avoid taking pieces of others' branding [19:02] that was for properties [19:02] right. [19:02] <@mirek2> I think Gnome has a generic icon with a pencil [19:03] there are some icons with pencils in the gnome theme [19:03] though [19:03] <@mirek2> great -- we can use that [19:04] <@mirek2> we should probably contact Lamo if he'd like a say in this [19:04] and gedits real logo is just the wordmark i believe [19:04] <alexanderW> are those already in LibO now, or only the ones we needed for 3.6? [19:04] <@mirek2> after all, he is more experienced with designing Gnome icons and he did offer to help [19:05] <@mirek2> alexanderW: which ones do you mean? [19:06] ive been rather conservative in replacing icons, so: no [19:06] <@mirek2> embarassing typo: I meant "Lapo" [19:06] <alexanderW> has the entire icon set be imported? [19:07] <@mirek2> should I send Lapo an e-mail? [19:07] <@mirek2> asking him for advice? [19:07] and its also still under cc-by-sa [19:07] <@mirek2> showing him the metaphors we came up with [19:08] no [19:08] seems good [19:09] <@mirek2> so exclude Lapo from the equation then? [19:10] why [19:10] <@mirek2> I'm confused: was the "no" you sent an answer to "should I send Lapo an e-mail?" [19:11] [that was a] no, to "did we import everything?" [19:11] <@mirek2> oh, ok [19:12] <@mirek2> I'll send the e-mail then [19:12] <@mirek2> moving on: remove icon [19:12] i mean the licensing question is still open and jakub doesnt like the relicensing idea but... [19:12] <@mirek2> It removes the selected template from the template dialog but doesn't delete it. [19:13] <@mirek2> astron1: Is Creative Commons a problem for us if we credit the authors? [19:13] [a remove icon] is available from gnome and old tango [19:13] <alexanderW> Now we're using it under CC-BY..., right? [19:13] <@mirek2> yes [19:14] <@mirek2> in what ways is cc-by a problem? [19:14] mirek2: ianal. but mm doesnt like it i think. its hard to track [19:14] <@mirek2> ok [19:15] it would be simpler to just have mpl [19:15] <@mirek2> yes, I understand [19:15] in text files you can add license headers ... [19:15] not so much here [19:16] <alexanderW> ah [19:16] <@mirek2> there's typically an "Authors" file in the same folder as the icons [19:16] <alexanderW> svgs can't be used? [19:16] <@mirek2> and a license file as well [19:16] <alexanderW> Well, the icons are spread across many folders I think [19:17] well not currently svgs [19:17] <@mirek2> isn't there a main folder that houses all the icons? [19:18] it already contains icons with different licenses [19:18] afaik [19:19] <@mirek2> oh, that's right [19:19] <@mirek2> I was thinking the other icons could be relicensed CC-by [19:19] <@mirek2> but I forgot that LibreOffice isn't the owner [19:20] <@mirek2> hmph... that makes things complicated [19:20] <@mirek2> I don't know if Jakub will stand down and agree to dual-license his icons [19:21] i was told not to worry about the old icons [19:21] <@mirek2> perhaps it might just be easier to make all our artwork creative commons [19:22] anyway, its not just jakub its rather the less frequent contributors that make it hard [19:22] we still have answer only from l,j and hylke [19:22] <@mirek2> so do you think making all libreoffice artwork use cc-by would be plausible? [19:23] <@mirek2> after all, it is a more appropriate license for artwork [19:23] no [19:23] <@mirek2> and it allows differently-licensed open-source software to share icons [19:23] <@mirek2> why not? [19:23] [that just meant] that we shouldnt waste time trying to get their licenses right [19:24] <@mirek2> we'll waste time with licensing no matter what path we take [19:24] sure. [19:25] <@mirek2> given that the majority of the icon developers haven't responded yet, it seems unlikely that they will all respond anytime soon [19:25] <@mirek2> plus Jakub seems unyielding [19:25] but a new theme would be a chance to get it right from the start should we ever do one [19:26] <alexanderW> a completely new icon theme? [19:26] <@mirek2> a new theme would be a massive undertaking [19:26] we can try on gnome irc... thats more immediate than email [19:26] massive? yes. [19:27] <@mirek2> would you like to try the gnome irc? [19:27] but for the android viewer we need at least some flat icons [19:27] [mirek2:] ill see [19:27] <alexanderW> If that's kind of a show-stopper we could ask creators of other icon themes [19:27] <@mirek2> yes, that's what I was thinking -- start with the Android port [19:27] <@mirek2> but that's going to take years [19:28] <alexanderW> @ mirek: what? [19:28] <@mirek2> a new icon theme [19:28] <@mirek2> and we're still going to need a Tango theme [19:28] <alexanderW> not a new one, one that already exists [19:28] <@mirek2> for Gnome users like me who like to have all apps use the same icon theme [19:28] yes but we have the chance to do android gradually [19:28] <@mirek2> alexanderW: what do you mean? [19:29] gnome is more and more using flat icons... [19:30] <alexanderW> If it's better in the long run to use another license (cc0?), we could approach teams that lready created an entire icon theme for gnome [19:30] <@mirek2> astron1: yes; but, as I was saying, it will take years before we can use it on the desktop; even now, not all of our icons are consistent [19:30] so, yes concentrate on tango now [19:31] <@mirek2> astron1: yes, but only in manager apps; editors still use those large colorful icons [19:31] <@mirek2> plus xfce and lxde still use Tango icons [19:32] likely because gnome 3 doesnt provision for editors [19:32] <@mirek2> which I think is too bad -- the Gnome editing applications could use some design love [19:33] <@mirek2> so, how to solve the CC problem? [19:33] ... [19:34] <@mirek2> the advantage of using CC for our own icons would be that they could be reused by Abiword/Gnumeric/Ease/other Tango apps licensed differently [19:34] oh right [19:35] <alexanderW> cc what? [19:35] <@mirek2> cc-by [19:35] mpl would exclude aoo though... no one else [19:36] <@mirek2> astron1: I don't think we need to exclude AOO [19:36] <@mirek2> that's just being unfriendly [19:37] <@mirek2> it's just that most icon packs tend to be creative commons [19:37] [mpl/excluding aoo] would be convenient and the rest of the project does it [19:37] <alexanderW> So do we want to stay with the Gnome icon set in the long term? [19:38] also talk to mm about licensing [19:38] <@mirek2> alexanderW: "in the long term" -- that's a bit complicated, especially when now there's an intense battle of platforms going on [19:38] <@mirek2> who knows where computers will be a few years from now [19:38] he knows better than either of us [19:39] <@mirek2> michael? yes, I suppose so [19:40] <@mirek2> in any case, I would say Tango is the best path for us right now [19:40] certainly [19:40] <alexanderW> yes [19:40] <@mirek2> there are tons of these icon sets around, it fits well in Gnome, LXDE, XFCE, and elementary's DE [19:41] <@mirek2> in any case, we should probably get back to discussing the dialog icon metaphors [19:41] <alexanderW> probably [19:41] plus mac and win more or less [19:42] <@mirek2> well, Windows has very different icon styles in XP, Vista/7, and 8 [19:42] <@mirek2> cartoonish -> detailed -> flat and simple [19:43] <@mirek2> anyway, astron, you said gnome already has a "remove" icon [19:43] <@mirek2> what about a "Tools" icon? [19:43] <@mirek2> (this would launch a menu listing miscellaneous actions) [19:43] <@mirek2> like the tools menu in Chrome or action overflow on Android [19:44] <@mirek2> I know Gnome uses a gear icon, but I've only seen a flat version of it [19:44] <alexanderW> or a gear [19:44] <@mirek2> do you know if Gnome has a Tango version of the gear icon? [19:44] <alexanderW> one sec [19:45] <alexanderW> hm [19:45] == astron1 [59cc8a7d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.204.138.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] [19:46] <alexanderW> web doesn't use it [19:46] <@mirek2> the new applications use a flat icon [19:47] <alexanderW> we could ask dan rabbit from elementary, they use a tango version [19:47] <@mirek2> I was thinking the same thing [19:47] <@mirek2> it's licensed under GPL, but I'm sure he could relicense the one icon for use [19:47] <@mirek2> us, I mean [19:47] <alexanderW> Should I ask? [19:48] <@mirek2> maybe after we know what to relicense it [19:48] <@mirek2> so after I ask Michael to relicense [19:48] <alexanderW> alright [19:48] <@mirek2> after I ask Michael whether to license it under CC-by or MPL [19:49] <@mirek2> lastly, the selection mode icon [19:49] <alexanderW> a tick box [19:49] <@mirek2> or we could use Gnome's icon [19:49] <@mirek2> though I have to admit -- Gnome's icon isn't very clear about what it does [19:49] <alexanderW> what fo they use? [19:50] <@mirek2> you know that the selection mode is a Gnome idea to begin with, right? [19:51] <@mirek2> http://afaikblog.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/documents.png [19:51] <@mirek2> would make more sense if they used a box instead of a circle [19:52] <alexanderW> indeed [19:53] <alexanderW> colored or not? [19:53] <@mirek2> not colored [19:53] <@mirek2> we should also keep the same position as the Gnome dialog [19:55] <@mirek2> anyway, that's the whole list of icons for now [19:56] <alexanderW> anything else? [19:57] <@mirek2> there's the matter of who will design what [19:57] <@mirek2> I'll be gone for a while and, frankly, I always prefer to pass on graphic design stuff since that's not really an area where I excel [19:58] <alexanderW> we can all make suggestions and then decide for each who makes the final desigfn [19:58] <@mirek2> sure [19:58] <@mirek2> but I probably won't be doing that anytime soon [19:59] <alexanderW> ok [19:59] <@mirek2> hope that it's not an issue [19:59] <alexanderW> It's not [19:59] <@mirek2> good :) [20:00] <@mirek2> I think that's all [20:00] <@mirek2> oh -- what about the color management whiteboard? [20:00] <@mirek2> should we continue the process? [20:01] <alexanderW> Yes, it'd be great if we could be done with this for the next release [20:01] <@mirek2> ok, I'll try to work on the gradients a bit before I leave [20:02] <alexanderW> alright [20:02] <alexanderW> Should I put up the IRC log [20:02] <@mirek2> I can put it up [20:02] <@mirek2> I guess we're done then [20:03] <alexanderW> yes [20:03] <alexanderW> good evening [20:03] <@mirek2> enjoy your evening [20:03] <alexanderW> bye