Design/Meetings/2012-06-16


 * Date/Time: 2012-06-16, 1600 UTC (the time below is 2 hours ahead of UTC)
 * Location: IRC, channel #libreoffice-design

Attendees

 * AlexanderW
 * Astron
 * Mirek2

Log
 astron247> take a look. and while I don't use it, you can watch pages on the wiki so that updates don't escape your attention  Yes, I know cgit to be honest, I'd prefer to stay on the wiki right, still, i think an artwork repo could be better organised we'd have to do all the organizing and watch every wiki upload "watch every upload"? how?  We'd emphazie that contributors should zuse the mailing list to submit stuff exactly -- I don't think that's possible @alex: but then we'd have to upload things to both the wiki and the git repository this stuff needs to be in the wiki so it's publicly visible and accessible to the broad public or, maybe, we could use the repo just for very official, actually in-product stuff and keep the wiki for experiment s @mirek through cgit, its also publicly visible if it's in-product, isn't the current libreoffice repo enough? given that most non-developer designers never touch git, it's not accessible to the general public having our own repo, we could link to that from the wiki at the point with the libreoffice repo being enough: maybe but also, the svgs arent (currently) used in the process of building, so they could be cleanly split out of the main repo  I got disconnected, may have missed a line or 2 (repeating my lines from before) astron247 18:22:00 having our own repo, we could link to that from the wiki at the point with the libreoffice repo being enough: maybe  linking from the wiki still would eliminate image previews, which is something we want  They could be used additionally alex: what do you mean?  we might want a repo for source svgs, I agree  not for general submissions, though  these svgs should be source files of the pngs already accepted for inclusion  I don't understand why linking to the repo would eliminate previews okay, i guess i agree to that now  Yes because cgit is awful with images  It shows the Hexcode, doesn't it? you have to click on "plain" and then it will download ... but the server will communicate "this is a text file, so open with gedit"  yeah, that's bad and then your svg opens in gedit, instead of in a useful piece of software (i like gedit, but its not an image viewer)  so are we agreed to use a repo for hosting source files for graphics accepted into libreoffice? yes  yes  astron, since you brought it up and are probably most familiar with it, could you take care of that? by the way, there already is the (deprecated) artwork repo that was used until 3.4 (just for the icons, though) <mirek2_> didn't know ill see what i can do <mirek2_> great <mirek2_> :) <mirek2_> moving on... <mirek2_> anything else from ESC? okay... so next up, me shooting you guys in the foot: concerning the writer default doc <alexander_> Not for 3.6 I guess <mirek2_> astron: yes? i said sth to the effect of "i am not sure its worthwhile to pursue this default doc stuff, if the only options available are liberation sans and serif" <mirek2_> to a measure, I agree; however... which michael thought to mean "clearly not a good use of cedrics/kendys time" <mirek2_> ...there are some problems we could fix with the current template i didnt clarify that though such as the headlines smaller than the body text? yes. <mirek2_> yes is there anything else that really needs to be fixed? <mirek2_> and headings using non-integer sizes thats because theyre in precentages ie: heading is 14pt, and heading 1 is 110% of that, heading 2 is 100% etc... <mirek2_> oh... its useful, because when you scale heading up in your document, all the subheads will adapt <mirek2_> well, it's still something that could be adjusted <mirek2_> it's strange that 14 is used <mirek2_> 12 is a much nicer number, divisible by 2,3,4,6 maybe. i am not sure what you'd use that for. <mirek2_> I agree that it's useful <mirek2_> @astron: it divides more nicely <mirek2_> to whole integers no, thats not what i mean, but good idea maybe we can try 24 for heading? <alexander_> Does that matter? <mirek2_> I'd like 24 for a heading <mirek2_> without bold i think fotns are to some degree optimised for point sizes, but dont nail me on that <mirek2_> yes, they are <mirek2_> that's why I'd like to use integer sizes by default (i know for sure with on-screen small sizes, not sure about print) <mirek2_> also headings 6-10 look identical <mirek2_> which is a huge problem yes. i _think_ these should just be removed <alexander_> Well, who uses them it doesnt help anyone to have ten outline levels <mirek2_> I have actually used some of these it makes documents worse <mirek2_> it doesn't really <mirek2_> no, these categories shouldn't end up in a table of contents <mirek2_> but it makes formatting subcategories easier <mirek2_> well, that's the point of styles as a whole <mirek2_> and they're useful in this scenario as well okay, so we are told "three outline levels" no more but what do you mean with subcategories? <mirek2_> what do you mean? <mirek2_> well, headings are often used to represent subcategories our professor or well, lecturer says so <mirek2_> while these don't appear in the table of contents... <mirek2_> ...they separate out sections <mirek2_> in complex documents, these headings are useful <mirek2_> even on our own wiki, there are times when we use the maximum possible heading level <mirek2_> sometimes there are times when it could be useful to go even deeper but at level 6+? youre either structuring your text to granularily or you have a bad structure usually by the way, html/wiki markup only provide 6 levels <alexander_> Maybe we could make more styles available in that dropdown so that users won't need the formatting dialog so often @alex: thats a different topic, i think <mirek2_> ok, I wouldn't be squarely against getting rid of headings 7-10 @mirek: if you need more, you can obviously define more levels, but we need a sane default (i. e. about 5 levels) <mirek2_> 6 levels at least, please <mirek2_> many users can't define more levels <mirek2_> the style UI is not very good right now right but the only who need to define more are power users <mirek2_> a lot of actions are hidden under a right-click menu, I believe, which is horrible usability-wise <mirek2_> @astron: I disagree it is. <mirek2_> I'm sure there are many people who write long documents, but aren't power-users long, doesnt mean incredibly complicated -, <mirek2_> 6 levels is not that complicated... <mirek2_> I wouldn't say our wiki structure is too complicated <mirek2_> yet there have been times when we've hit that heading 6 boundary <mirek2_> anyway, can we agree to keep at least 6 levels? also, consider that for everyone who uses only level 1,2,3, maybe 4 all the other levels will be in the way. @guess we can, seems some kind of consensus @mirek, that is <mirek2_> I've previously suggested showing only the next-up level hm right <alexander_> My point is that they're only in the way if one uses the formatting dialog, right? <mirek2_> i.e. if you use heading 1, you only need heading 2 thats what mso does, too, no? <mirek2_> if you've used headings 1-3, you only need heading 4 <mirek2_> @alex: they're in the way no matter what <mirek2_> @astron: no clue about what Office does will try tomorrow or so. (but id have to reboot to get into windows) <mirek2_> anyway, 6 levels minimum -- agree? yes from me. <alexander_> @mirek: If the needs for most of the users are satsfied without opening the dialog that would be an advantage <alexander_> okay <mirek2_> alright @alex: what dlg do you actually mean? the floating window? <alexander_> yes okay. but the toolbar style selector would work similarly to the floating window, no? thus it would be just as bad there... (IMO) <alexander_> I shows only a subset of the available styles <mirek2_> well, if a redesign does happen, we could implement showing only the currently-used headings and the next one up sounds sensible to me <mirek2_> in any case, that's discussion for another day <alexander_> agree <mirek2_> I think we should leave a new default document template to 3.7 <mirek2_> and focus on templates, the splash, and the start screen for now okay, then <alexander_> Ok okay, more esc call stuff ... kendy asked for approval on the new windows look <mirek2_> I don't like the menubar look <alexander_> The one with the slight gradient for the toolbar <alexander_> and that white menu background? i gave it to him, but the white "triangles" at the sides look really weird – i hope he can iron that out @alex: yes <mirek2_> Kendy seems intent on using Aero glass <mirek2_> he's trying all sorts of hacks to make it work what i think would look far better is just a simple gradient in the beckground <mirek2_> background? <alexander_> yes, why should we use aero if all other apps don't <mirek2_> what do you mean by background? @mirek: yes, sorry my music tastes taking over :) <mirek2_> @alex: well, Office does, and it's our main competitor i mean behind the menu <mirek2_> you mean, without using Aero glass? <mirek2_> I agree yes, office does is a poor argument <alexander_> http://www.theverge.com/2012/6/13/3082649/macbook-pro-review-retina-display-15-inch will upload a mockup <alexander_> That version won't use aero anymore either <mirek2_> I believe you mean to post about Windows 8 <mirek2_> not the macbook <mirek2_> @astron: I agree; I'm just saying that, out of "all other apps", Office is most relevant <mirek2_> I also don't like Aero glass <mirek2_> would also prefer a white menu background <mirek2_> but Kendy is intent on using glass @mirek: you wont change him, but we can make the best out of it <mirek2_> I'll tell him that if he can't do something about it, then he should make the background solid right. <mirek2_> there's already a bug about it <mirek2_> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=50036 <mirek2_> anyway, anything else from the call? bit.ly/JCPynv is what i think would look cleaner than the current solution <mirek2_> better <mirek2_> try it on black, just to see <mirek2_> whether the text is readable enough ive already added a black background <mirek2_> you mean the blue side on the right? yes, the windows have blue tint, thus it's bluish +a but its actually an ugly black squre in my svg +a <mirek2_> kendy sent http://artax.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~kendy/design-list/toolbar-gradient.png <mirek2_> so we do have to target black <alexander_> the toolbars looks alright I think <mirek2_> I agree <mirek2_> the menubar looks awful, though, I think <alexander_> indeed yes, subotmial, but readable at least <mirek2_> anyway, anything else from the ESC call? okay... let me check mmeks mail... <mirek2_> also, alex, is it ok if I attend this coming week? <mirek2_> or would you like to? right, it would be cool if you could check out markus color bar stuff ... theres tons of known ui bugs, so maybe send some feedback to <alexander_> @mirek: that'd be alright <mirek2_> hm... I'd need to compile libreoffice first me ... so i could filter what we know already <mirek2_> @alex: which of the two? <alexander_> the first <mirek2_> ok @mirek: no, you can get something from dev-builds.libreoffice.org <mirek2_> https://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/Linux-x86_10-Release_Configuration/libreoffice-3-6/current/ yup should be it. <mirek2_> dev-test? <mirek2_> should I know about anything before installing? <mirek2_> I suppose I should uninstall my current version first no need to uninstall ... it will install in /opt <alexander_> I think that's not needed https://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/Linux-x86_10-Release_Configuration/libreoffice-3-6/current/libreoffice-3-6~2012-06-14_21.47.01_LibO-Dev_3.6.0beta1_Linux_x86_install-deb_en-US.tar.gz should be your ticket to the wonderland that is 3.6 one thing id recommend against is installing the stuff in desktop-integration ... since that will probably overwrite your existing libo menu entries <mirek2_> ok also, theres some sort of readme how to be install it, essentially go to folder in the command line and install al with "dpkg -i *" - be <mirek2_> alright <mirek2_> I'll do that later good. <mirek2_> anything else from the call? oh ... yeah, i said sth about our splash screen contest, so the devs now know (inclusion in beta 3) – seems to be fine with michael thats all <mirek2_> great <mirek2_> is that all? <mirek2_> from the call? yup <mirek2_> alright <mirek2_> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Call%20for%20Templates <mirek2_> alex, have you downsized/vectorized your templates? <alexander_> I tried it for some, but the version using the svg was often bgger <mirek2_> even without the added bitmap? <alexander_> I think I can send you a simpler version of vintage really? yes, please do send that to us <mirek2_> have you cleared the defs on the SVG first? oh one more thing from the call ... björn dosnt like your ubuntu one usage very much :) do you feel comfortable yet pushing to git? <alexander_> more or less <alexander_> @mirek: What do you mean? <mirek2_> @alex: In Inkscape: File > Vacuum Defs <mirek2_> there's also http://libregraphicsworld.org/blog/entry/introducing-svg-cleaner <mirek2_> alex? <mirek2_> have you cleared the defs on the SVG first? <alexander_> I wait a sec <mirek2_> you're clearing them now, then, I guess <alexander_> yes <mirek2_> how big is your SVG, btw? @mirek: thanks for the svg cleaner link. ill have a look at that <alexander_> depends, some 11 MB <alexander_> but there are issues with filers in Impress <alexander_> the SVG iosn't rendered as in inkscape <alexander_> *filters huh? but then surely there are tons of bitmaps in there. also, ive checked out inkscapes filters and lots of them seemed ... gaudy... anyone else a similar impression? <mirek2_> I agree @alex: yes, filters arent rendered correctly, which means i cant use the modern logo in the about box <mirek2_> I've tried the filters, but I found that vector graphics look much better without them <mirek2_> anyway, let's look at all the submitted templates <mirek2_> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Call%20for%20Templates <mirek2_> to be honest, I'm not entirely happy with any submission <mirek2_> "Progress" is the one I'm most happy with <mirek2_> though it needs to use Liberation fonts <mirek2_> and I might like the title screen to use white text for the title, as in the original conception <mirek2_> http://spiceofdesign.deviantart.com/gallery/#/d4qwtkj <mirek2_> btw, we'll need to mention Caleb Riley aka. spiceofdesign in Credits if we go for it <mirek2_> as it's his design <mirek2_> anyway, what do you think of the templates? <mirek2_> anyone? faves are lush green, progress, typography, hexagons, clean inspiration (no order) but as i said before, i usually don't work with templates and start from scratch * re: typography: it needs better contrast and it certainly wont work with liberation <alexander_> Did anyone contact Caleb? hello? I'm here got disconnected again oh god empathy... not on empathy but on the web interface i clicked copy and it cleared all text. I should really think about setting up empathy <alexander_> btw Vintage has 370 KB but looks rather awful okay, alex asked, if you have contacted caleb Alex, I believe you will be responsible for publishing the log <alexander_> Ok keep that in mind -- perhaps keep a backup just in case yes, I have contacted caleb <alexander_> ah, apparently Xchat doesn't keep the whole conversation he agreed with us going ahead with "Progress" can you get him to send a blanket statement to the list? but doesn't want the templates from http://spiceofdesign.deviantart.com/gallery/#/d52vby2 to get included CC0 is too much for him CC-by would be acceptable but, as Michael said, we need CC0 to guarantee users can make derivative works out of the bundled templates without restriction @astron: what kind of statement? hm, i see calebs point though I agree I told him that we would still mention him on the Credits page he hasn't responded yet (but I haven't given him enough time to) (just sent my latest response today) in that case, that he makes all the templates he makes available for us as CC0 (which would then only be one) I'd prefer something more specific to "Progress" <alexander_> otherwise that template based on his design would need to be remove, I guessẞ you know what michael'd prefer. like "I hereby agree that I release the intellectual property within Progress under the CC0 license." maybe discuss if thats enough with michael ianal I'll try that. okay... ill need to leave in a bit, so id like to ask sth OT go ahead did you send the mail to the website list, mirek? which one? (asking about the wiki polling stuff) yes anyone outcomes? -one I need to find it first hm... I was sure I sent it, but now I can't find it oh, ok, I found it no response oh... do you mind poking again? it's called "Poll2" on the mailing list right alright thanks very much! also say that it might prove useful if we had it for the splash (it might be a very short time frame of a day, but ... its some justification) also, bye, ill go now! nice chatting with you. bye, then <alexander_> ok, cu (i have the whole chat till here as a log still, so mail me if you need that) <alexander_> what else do we need to discuss? hm, I'm not sure if it makes sense to discuss anything between the two of us is there anything you'd like to discuss? we could discuss the general usability of the submitted templates <alexander_> sure if you'd like also, could you convert the text on your templates to Liberation <alexander_> I'll upload the newer versions to the wiki, yes great how much have you simplified Metropolis? I feel like that could be drastically simplified <alexander_> I think those single-slide masterpages shouldn't look to complicated <alexander_> e.g. ThreeNotes isn't really useful, IMO I agree <alexander_> what do you think <alexander_> Maybe if we can somehow include full templates in 3.7 the only artefacts needed on Metropolis seem to be the header ribbon and the "lights" coming from the corners full templates? what do you mean by that? <alexander_> And regarding new default stlyes, should we set up a whole new whiteboardẞ <alexander_> Impress templates with several masterpages do we need that? @alex: I'm not sure about new default styles perhaps it'd be better to get the styles UI more usable first get rid of some of the bundled styles, perhaps or at least hide them until they're needed <alexander_> that would be the long-term solution, I think I don't think the current defaults are so bad and looking through all of the ones we have will certainly take a lot of time and effort as well <alexander_> With 'full templates' I meant otp files with several masterpages, e.g. one for content, one for the first slide etc. isn't that possible now, though? different backgrounds for different layouts most of the submitted templates are that way <alexander_> One can open such a template, but not use it via that sidebar <alexander_> yes <alexander_> IIRC, LibreOffice doesn't allow to specify a certain background for a certain layout, though <alexander_> one needs to select each individually <alexander_> But the latest Apache OO seemed to have worked around that issue: <alexander_> Based on the layout of the page it would automatically choose a certain masterpage cool anyway, I'll have to go now as well sorry to leave so early you can publish the log, right? <alexander_> Yes, I'll updload what I have and mail astron about the rest <alexander_> Ok, bye bye
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