Design/Meetings/2012-10-27

Attendees

 * Astron
 * Medieval_
 * Mirek2

Topics

 * Design wiki
 * FOSDEM T-shirts
 * Principles
 * Categorization
 * ux-control
 * Examples
 * Color handling
 * Community engagement

Tasks

 * Mirek2: Create Design wiki whiteboard
 * Mirek2: Ask Kendy and the marketing team about the FOSDEM T-shirt
 * Ask developers about color handling: Should we implement it progressively or just introduce a new uniform color picker?

Log
[16:03] hello [16:04] <@astron247> hi there [16:06] hm, I meant to put up a Design wiki whiteboard, but I didn't have the time [16:06] <@astron247> okay. [16:06] on that topic: what should be the goal + scope? how much do we want to redig? [16:07] do we want to look at the whole Design subsection of the wiki or just the homepage? [16:07] I'd opt for the former [16:07] but what do you think? [16:07] <@astron247> id opt for the latter... [16:09] <@astron247> anyway, the goal would be to seem more inviting to new people [16:09] ok [16:09] <@astron247> and not to confornt them with too many technicalities [16:09] but it should also be useful for old timers, right? [16:10] so how about "Redesign the Design wiki homepage to be useful and usable for both newcomers and frequent contributors alike." [16:10] <@astron247> yes, but "old timers" will usually already know their way around a bit [16:11] ok [16:12] so "Redesign the Design wiki homepage to be useful for newcomers"? [16:12] <@astron247> well, maybe it shouldnt be jarring to people that have been with us for longer either [16:13] :) so what I wrote before? [16:13] <@astron247> but we could try to have a few useful tasks that get switched out...? [16:13] <@astron247> mirek2: probably almost [16:14] <@astron247> ugh... i am bad at this. [16:14] ok, let's stick with it for now and if anyone has a better suggestion, we'll refine it [16:14] something else I meant to bring up today: the principles [16:15] would it be alright if I 1) added categories as per my talk, so that the principles are more readable? [16:15] <@astron247> ok. since no else came in the meantime now, do we want to do esc and statuses? [16:15] well, you posted the ESC on the mailing list [16:15] <@astron247> right, any questions..? [16:16] I guess not [16:17] I don't think any developer answered our questions about Options [16:17] <@astron247> also, i like the new system much better, we should have done small esc notes on the list all along ... its much easier remembering while youre in the call [16:17] <@astron247> mirek2: not so far, no. michael posted it in the mins though [16:17] :) yes [16:17] ok [16:18] do you plan to set up a whiteboard for the FOSDEM T-shirts, or should I? [16:18] <@astron247> if youd do it, thatd be great. [16:18] :) ok [16:19] <@astron247> be sure to include some kind of t-shirt template [16:19] I'll look for it online [16:19] with any luck, I'll find something we've done before [16:19] any specifics from the call, btw? [16:19] about the T-shirts? [16:20] <@astron247> well, not really beyond "it does npot have to be fosdem-specific, so we dont have to throw it away after the event" [16:20] if I understood correctly, these are LibreOffice-branded T-shirts? [16:21] without a FOSDEM brand? [16:21] <@astron247> i think it was something like may or may not... [16:21] <@astron247> have the fosdem brand on it [16:22] and Kendy is the initiator? should I turn to him for specifics? [16:23] <@astron247> well, thats why the question mark is there... i am not sure it was kendy [16:23] ok [16:23] shouldn't the marketing team be in charge of this, though? [16:24] <@astron247> i think theyre not on the call... [16:24] <@astron247> at least theres never been anyone whos given a marketing update (except for italo in our physical meeting) [16:25] hm... I'll write to Kendy for specifics, then to the marketing team if they'd like to take care of it [16:25] == Medieval [2e83ea5a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.131.234.90] has joined #libreoffice-design [16:25] hello [16:25] <@astron247> okay [16:25]  hello [16:26] <@astron247> hi [16:26] Medieval: is there a topic you'd like to discuss? [16:27]  no [16:27]  not specific [16:27] (so that we could take care of it first, if one of us has to leave early) [16:27] ok [16:27]  ok [16:27] so, as I was saying, before, I'd like to add categories to our principles [16:27] <@astron247> who is doing the notes today btw? [16:28] simply for the sake of readability [16:28] I can [16:28] would that be ok? [16:29] <@astron247> mirek2: are you asking about the principles? or taking notes? [16:29] well, both [16:30] <@astron247> that makes it harder to answer... [16:30] <@astron247> taking notes: yes, sure! [16:30] <@astron247> new principle: i dont think i understand it yet [16:31] no new principles, just categorization of old principles [16:31] <@astron247> ugh... sorry misread this [16:31] I used "Speedy", "Self-explanatory", and "Error-proof" in my slides, with tone being the odd one out [16:32] that could go under "Friendly" or something [16:33] I feel that the current list is hard to look through, which is quite bad considering this is the basis which we use to justify design decisions [16:34]  You are talking about these: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Principles [16:34]  ? [16:34] yes [16:34]  Yes, they need categories [16:35] ok, great :) [16:35] astron, your thoughts? [16:36] <@astron247> basically a good idea, i think [16:36] ok [16:37] <@astron247> about tone ... maybe this really hardly fits in any of the three categories [16:37] <@astron247> and making a category for just one heuristic seems like useless idea... [16:38] I don't think so -- I'd rather have a separate category for one item than force it into a category it doesn't belong in [16:39] and tone is pretty special -- it doesn't relate to usability at all [16:40] it just tells the designer to be polite [16:40] perhaps "Polite" could be the category? [16:40] <@astron247> also, i have the feeling that several heuristics would fit in multiple categories – it would mean losing the good overview that the categories create thoguh... [16:40] <@astron247> mirek2: id rather go for friendly than polite, as polite sounds a bit formal. [16:40] well, you have my presentation, so judge for yourself [16:41] ok [16:41] but I think friendly is a lot more vague [16:42] it's true that "Self-explanatory" could be a subcategory of "Speedy", as the more self-explanatory something is, the quicker the user can pick it up [16:42] but I wouldn't say that would lead to confusion [16:44]  To me these principles look very complex and noisy [16:44] <@astron247> :) [16:44] <@astron247> btw, mireks presentation is here: http://ubuntuone.com/0LcFbaOXbcIqi5k035Dgfz [16:47] <@astron247> imho, you put too many things into "speedy"... [16:47] <@astron247> eg. visual hierarchy should be in self-explanatory imho [16:47] if you can think of better categories, go ahead [16:48] "visual hierarchy" tells you to highlight the functions that are more commonly used [16:48] they don't explain anything [16:48] they're only there to make access to commonly-used stuff faster [16:49] <@astron247> and make it easy to recognise the important stuff first [16:50] sure, but that relates to speed as well [16:50] <@astron247> a bit, yes. [16:51] "self-explanatory" should be interpreted as "requiring as little explanation as possible" [16:51] <@astron247> yes [16:52] a self-explanatory design does not rely on manuals, pop-over explanations, or tags [16:52] (does not rely on, but can make use of) [16:52] <@astron247> okay [16:53] is it alright if I add these categories, then? [16:54] <@astron247> i think so. [16:54] great :) [16:54] another thing: ux-control [16:54] <@astron247> one idea: can you maybe add jargon under "friendly" too? [16:55] <@astron247> Medieval: btw, what did you mean by "noisy"? the language of the heuristics? [16:55]  Where you are looking these proposed categories now?' [16:56] I believe jargon fits under self-explanatory, because that's what the principle is intended for [16:56] i.e. a design follows ux-jargon if the user doesn't have to look in the dictionary to understand it [16:57] that's also the reason why I prefer "polite" -- it's much more specific than "friendly" and thus avoids overlap with the other categories [16:57] <@astron247> mirek2: sure, but as i noted before, other things could go under multiple categories as well ... and since a category with just one entry is bad, let's put sth else there, too [16:57] <@astron247> mirek2: come on, its semantics, not an absolute science. [16:58] what's wrong with having a category for one entry? [16:58] why is that bad? [16:58] <@astron247> Medieval: theyre in the presentation that i linked to before [16:58]  ok [16:58] it's best to be as precise as possible [16:59] really, I would like to avoid logical inconsistencies [16:59] <@astron247> oh my. [16:59]  to me the presentation made much easier to understand the principles [16:59] but seriously, what's wrong with having a category hold just one item [17:00] Medieval: :) great [17:00] <@astron247> having a category with just one item is bad, because then you can just define the category to be exactly the same asthe item [17:00] hm... maybe we'd like to include some examples on the principles page as well... [17:00] <@astron247> mirek2: great idea! [17:01] astron247: sure you could, but if you did that for every item, that would defeat the point of categories [17:01] <@astron247> thats what im arguing. [17:01] again, if you can think of a better categorization system, go ahead [17:01] but we don't do that for every item [17:01] just one item [17:02] it's like when you write down a list of an author's works and separate them by genre [17:02] <@astron247> i dont believe i ngenres [17:02] or by topic [17:02] or anything [17:03] you sometimes end up with a category or two containing just one work [17:03] but that doesn't hurt the categorization in general [17:04] <@astron247> usually, though, you have some sort of pre-set category then, like $author wrote five novels, three short story, one poem [17:04] == Medieval [2e83ea5a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.131.234.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] [17:04] == Medieval_ [259d62da@gateway/web/freenode/ip.37.157.98.218] has joined #libreoffice-design [17:04] <@astron247> here, we have all the possibilities of creating a new categorisation [17:05] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Asimov_bibliography is alphabetically organized [17:05] "X" contains just one work [17:06] do you think that hurts the categorization system? [17:07] <@astron247> well, [17:07] or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Works_by_J.K._Rowling: just one book under "Adult" [17:07] <@astron247> you could do an XYZ category [17:08] but why would you -- that's just being inconsistent when every other letter has its own category [17:08] another example: when you search in Gnome Shell, sometimes you get one result under a few categories [17:08] but the categories still help in looking through the results [17:09] <@astron247> but gnome shell does that automatically. [17:09] batching unrelated categories together would be counterproductive [17:09] astron247: sure, but I'm saying that the categories are still helpful, even when they contain just one item [17:09] <@astron247> ok. forget it. do the one-item category. [17:10] on the other hand, "Miscellaneous" categories tend to not help with anything [17:10] :) sorry for being so unyielding [17:11] another principle-related topic: I'd like to define ux-control in a more precise way [17:11] how about "Software should not automate against the user's will. It should not hurt the user or his data and should not prevent him from accomplishing the intended goal."? [17:13] <@astron247> i actually like the old description. to me, it makes it clear that control is not meant as an absolute, but rather as a feeling here [17:13] or is there another intention to ux-control that I'm missing? [17:13] I really don't like the old description, since it can be used to argue basically anything [17:14] everything that we decided against under the General options analysis could be theoretically argued for on the basis of ux-control [17:14] <@astron247> no, not really. [17:15] "Not having [option] makes me feel like I don't have control over the software." -- how can you argue against that? [17:16] <@astron247> or at least not for the general population (a few techies might like to control everythings and have enough knowledge to understand what they are doing) [17:16] <@astron247> having makes me unsure if what i am doing is right, i feel out of control [17:16] "[option]" could be e.g. being able to change the toolbar color, or silly stuff like that [17:17] astron247: you're redefining the principle yourself [17:17] <@astron247> how so? [17:17] Original: Users should always feel like they are in control of their software. [17:18] example a) The general population should always feel like they are in control of their software. [17:18] example b) Users should never feel unsure about what they're doing, shouldn't feel like their software is out of control. [17:19]  How is the visual side coming? Something like this: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:1.odt ? [17:19]  I think the original is OK [17:20] Medieval_: not sure I understand your question; we're using wiki markup for the wiki, with no change in styling [17:20]  Yes ofcourse [17:20] ("for the principles", not "for the wiki") [17:21] <@astron247> mirek2: okay, so how am i redefining ux-control? [17:21]  yes [17:21] see examples a and b above [17:22] <@astron247> i see them [17:22] these are derived from your arguments [17:22] <@astron247> okay [17:22] the original principles talked about all users, thus even those few techies you mentioned [17:23] -s [17:24] <@astron247> personas are go! [17:25] <@astron247> we should have a target audience, and we should target it... [17:26] my feelings on the topic kind of reflect Alex Faaborg's from this post: https://blog.mozilla.org/faaborg/2010/04/07/what-i-have-against-contextual-design-and-personas/ [17:26] in any case, let's put personas aside [17:27] anyway, about "Software should not automate against the user's will. It should not hurt the user or his data and should not prevent him from accomplishing the intended goal." [17:27] are there any deficiencies to that definition? [17:29] (message of linked blog post: personas are good when you're designing niche software, not that useful when designing for the general population) [17:29] <@astron247> ive been reading it [17:29]  Software should not hurt the user or his data and should not prevent him from accomplishing the intended goal. [17:29] yes [17:30] <@astron247> the problem with that probably is that de have target groups that use very diffeernet aspects of libo [17:30] <@astron247> ... just that theres a lot of different ones [17:30] I would prefer not to go into this discussion [17:30] also, there are a lot of features that really do apply to the general public [17:30] <@astron247> okay. i will leave now, sorry... [17:31] <@astron247> mirek2: like colouring text pink, yes. [17:31] ok, we'll leave that up for the next chat then [17:31] <@astron247> but how about bibliography management? [17:31] <@astron247> ok, bye. [17:31] == astron247 [~frootzowr@dslb-188-102-183-099.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #libreoffice-design [] [17:32] on bibliography management: it could gain massively in usage if it was more usable [17:32] most of the general population could use it for academic/professional work at some point in their life [17:33] anyway... [17:33] Medieval_: how do you think we should include the examples? [17:34] let me rephrase that: how should examples of the principles applied be presented? [17:35] (if there's a different topic you'd like to talk about, feel free to bring it up) [17:35] <Medieval_> Most of my no [17:36] ? [17:36] <Medieval_> No need for exa,ples maybe [17:36] <Medieval_> my computer went crasy [17:36] should I maybe just link to the presentation? [17:36] <Medieval_> yes [17:36] <Medieval_> i was thinking about bibliography management [17:37] ok [17:37] what about it? [17:37] <Medieval_> i havent really used it [17:37] <Medieval_> but i am writing a lot with writer [17:38] <Medieval_> and using citations and stuff [17:38] <Medieval_> in college [17:38] <Medieval_> i havent really figured out how to use it [17:40] yeah, it'd be great to redesign, but I think we have our hands full right now [17:40] all I can do is reference you to the manual, really [17:40] <Medieval_> next topic: [17:40] but if it's something you'd be interested in working on, we can add it to our list of tasks [17:40] <Medieval_> I don [17:41] <Medieval_> Why design team changes thing just to change something? [17:41] <Medieval_> Like the splash change?' [17:43] there's usually some reasoning behind it [17:43] the splash change was simply to make something look nicer [17:43] <Medieval_> or I see problem there where itäs not?' [17:44] <Medieval_> ok [17:44] + the team is run by volunteers so it really depends on what they want to do [17:44] <Medieval_> yes [17:44] if they want a better anything, they're free to start a project [17:45] <Medieval_> Whats the progress with Color handling?' [17:45] the splash redesign was started by astron, I believe, or perhaps someone from the ESC (Engineering Steering Committee) [17:46] <Medieval_> ok [17:46] Medieval_: no progress, no interested developer, and design is still on hold [17:47] but, again, if you can devote time to it, either design-wise or developer-wise, we can start devoting some time to it again [17:47] <Medieval_> Why not first make new pallette? [17:47] <Medieval_> its easy and no developers needed? [17:47] are you subscribed to the design mailing list? [17:48] <Medieval_> yes [17:48] and the ux-advise mailing list? [17:48] <Medieval_> no [17:48] you might want to subscribe to that as well [17:49] <Medieval_> ok [17:49] <Medieval_> The 8 columns was my idea [17:49] it was discussed on one of those lists [17:49] <Medieval_> to make it easier for new palettes [17:50] in any case, the biggest reason for not making a new palette yet is because we need to preserve compatibility with the old one [17:51] i.e. if a person opens an older document that he used our old colors with in a new version of LibreOffice with a new palette, he needs a way to be able to use the old colors again [17:51] <Medieval_> thats why we need document colors or custom colrs to be implemented [17:51] which he doesn't have until we implement the Color handling stuff from the wiki [17:52] Medieval_: right [17:53] <Medieval_> yes [17:53] <Medieval_> but as i see it will be not implemented near future or ever` [17:53] it all depends on whether we attract developer attention [17:53] <Medieval_> your design is winning one? [17:54] there is no winning design -- the tentative design tends to be a combination of factors from the various designs [17:54] based on a thorough comparison and analysis [17:55] which we never got finished with [17:55] anyway, a good topic to discuss right now might be how to bring in more people [17:55] <Medieval_> This is the first one to do then [17:55] not really [17:55] <Medieval_> How much active people are there? [17:56] <Medieval_> many* [17:56] well, I would say mostly Astron, Alex, and me on the part of the design team [17:57] there are no developers devoted to working on stuff we design, but once in a while we get a request for a design from a developer [17:57] <Medieval_> Ok [17:57] <Medieval_> What about the one who contacted in mailing list? [17:57] <Medieval_> developer some kind [17:58] e.g. Cedric Bosdonnat asked us about how to best implement CMIS integration [17:58] Medieval_: I asked him to show up today [17:58] <Medieval_> I read it. [17:58] <Medieval_> But its around noon in Coolumbia [17:59] <Medieval_> Maybe sleeping [17:59] :) yeah, maybe [17:59] I'll write to him about what he'd like to work on [17:59] color handling is a good topic [18:00] <Medieval_> About color handling: I think it must be done by steps [18:00] yeah, I suppose [18:00] <Medieval_> First implement document color [18:01] <Medieval_> And second: now there are too many colors to be shown [18:01] the problem with that is that we have several different color pickers [18:01] compare the one for shape fill with the one for text color in Impress [18:02] <Medieval_> Yes i see [18:03] but maybe the duplicate work+additional design is worth the progressive implementation [18:03] I'll bring it up on the list [18:05] anyway, about bringing in more developers/designers [18:05] what do you think we could do? [18:05] what do you think we could improve upon? [18:05] <Medieval_> And then we need to find developers [18:05] and, in general, how could we engage more with the community? [18:06] <Medieval_> yes [18:06] (I'm assuming more community engagement=more volunteers) [18:06] <Medieval_> my time is limited [18:06] <Medieval_> because of university [18:06] ok [18:07] are you leaving then? [18:07] <Medieval_> no [18:07] ok [18:07] what are you trying to tell me? [18:07] that you don't have time to volunteer much? [18:08] <Medieval_> I am just hoping to figure out the developer who fixed the different color column number [18:08] <Medieval_> yes [18:08] ok [18:09] different color column number? [18:09] <Medieval_> sorry [18:10] <Medieval_> there were somewhere 10 column and somewhere 8 column in color pallettes [18:10] <Medieval_> that messed up the color pallette [18:10] <Medieval_> and so [18:10] <Medieval_> there was one developer who fixed it [18:11] <Medieval_> i want to find him and ask if he want to help us improve colou handling [18:12] ok [18:14] <Medieval_> As you can see my english isn´t best [18:14] it's not bad at all [18:15] but I don't think I can help you find the developer [18:16] <Medieval_> yes i know [18:16] <Medieval_> i am now looking uo the archives [18:16] ok [18:17] which ones? of the developer mailing list? [18:19] <Medieval_> it was in bug reports [18:20] ok [18:22] <Medieval_> isn´t Christoph Noack any more active? [18:23] <Medieval_> I think we need to ask developer list if there is somebody willing to help` [18:24] no, he left, though he occasionally shows up for a comment [18:24] :) we can ask on ux-advise [18:24] but maybe we should have a design first [18:24] <Medieval_> ok [18:25] I don't know if the team has time for that right now, though [18:25] there are other priorities to sort out first [18:25] it'd be great if we could get more people :) [18:25] for community engagement, I was thinking we could do something like https://plus.google.com/events/cjct86fn2gb6hkquj4shj3cj5cg [18:26] let people ask about what we're doing and kind of suggest how they could help [18:27] one of the things we're also working on is redesigning the Design wiki homepage so it's more volunteer-friendly [18:27] <Medieval_> it would be nice [18:28] what else do you think we could do to get developers? [18:28] it would also be helpful to know how you got involved and what you thought of the experience [18:28] I was also thinking we could be present on Twitter and on DeviantArt, to reach out to a broader audience [18:29] <Medieval_> yes [18:29] for DeviantArt, it would also be helpful to be able to embed images from other sites on the wiki [18:29] I need to ask on the website list about that [18:29] <Medieval_> maybe some popup in libreoffice [18:29] <Medieval_> + [18:30] <Medieval_> alot of people are using libre office [18:31] <Medieval_> but they don´t really know that they can help [18:32] I would be against things popping up in LibreOffice -- it devalues the experience [18:32] (like having an ad in your software) [18:32] <Medieval_> not poping [18:33] <Medieval_> one button to startup? [18:34] a "get involved" button on the start center? [18:34] <Medieval_> yes [18:35] could you make a mockup? [18:35] <Medieval_> i can try [18:35] or post a message on the design list, so that people could think about it? [18:36] (you don't have to do it now) [18:37] what exactly do you imagine, though? [18:38] finding developers through the start center? [18:38] or designers? [18:38] or a generic "Get involved" button to take you to https://www.libreoffice.org/get-involved? [18:38] <Medieval_> i don+t think we find developers [18:38] <Medieval_> but maybe peaople can say what they want [18:39] <Medieval_> and link to this page maybe too [18:40] maybe we should redesign the get involved page [18:40] e.g. here's Mozilla's: https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/contribute/ [18:41] or we could do a promotional video [18:41] or just share Michael Meeks's EasyHacks presentation, once it's online [18:43] there's another mozilla "get involved" page: http://whatcanidoformozilla.org/ [18:43] <Medieval_> Mozilla page is fun and catching [18:45] <Medieval_> something like this is nice to have in get involved page [18:46] yeah... if we have the time we should get on that as well [18:46] <Medieval_> and then we can put link(icon) to starup too [18:46] hm... so much to do [18:46] <Medieval_> yes [18:46] anyway, how did you get involved? [18:46] what inspired you to join? [18:47] and what obstacles did/do you run into? [18:47] <Medieval_> it was a long ago [18:48] <Medieval_> i think it started when i didn´t like something in openoffice and wanted to change [18:49] <Medieval_> and after using linux [18:51] the same for me [18:51] is it ok if we end the meeting now? [18:51] or is there anything else you'd like to discuss? [18:51] <Medieval_> yes [18:52] ok [18:52] do you plan to attend next week? [18:52] <Medieval_> no [18:52] <Medieval_> same time? [18:52] <Medieval_> i donät now if i have time [18:52] yes, same time [18:52] alright [18:53] see you