Design/Meetings/2012-12-01

= Unterhaltung mit #libreoffice-design =

(16:59:13)  Modus ( ns ) von gibson.freenode.net  (17:00:49) ' alexander [~alexander@d53623f5.access.ecotel.net''] hat den Raum betreten.  (17:00:53)  alexander hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Client Quit).  (17:03:29)  alexanderW_ [d53623f5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.54.35.245] hat den Raum betreten.  (17:06:28)  Medieval [c1280ada@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.40.10.218] hat den Raum betreten.  (17:06:34)  alexanderW:  Hi (17:06:34)  Medieval: hi (17:07:49)   alexanderW:  Astron will not come, I hope Mirek makes it (17:08:22)  mirek2 [59b0ae7b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.176.174.123] hat den Raum betreten. ''' (17:08:50) mirek2: hi everyone (17:09:40) Medieval: hi (17:10:16)   alexanderW:  hi (17:10:19)  mirek2: if you're not in the middle of a topic, perhaps we should begin with the color picker (17:10:35)  alexanderW:  sure <font color="#cd627e">(17:10:38) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Color Picker <font color="#cd627e">(17:11:03) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: alright <font color="#cd627e">(17:11:43) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: I have second thoughts about the scroll bar choice we made <font color="#204a87">(17:12:04)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  yes? <font color="#cd627e">(17:12:07) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: perhaps proposal 4 would be best, as it wouldn't alter the size of the pop-up <font color="#cd627e">(17:12:29) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: and I don't expect there to be many categories where scrolling is necessary <font color="#cd627e">(17:13:12) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: thoughts? (17:13:48) ''' Medieval hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Ping timeout: 245 seconds).  (17:13:48)  alexanderW_ hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Ping timeout: 245 seconds).  <font color="#204a87">(17:14:03)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW: ''' Yeah, our standard palette wouldn't need scrolling and usually one doesn't use that many colors in a document <font color="#cd627e">(17:14:25) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: so you'd be ok with proposal 4? <font color="#204a87">(17:14:36)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  is that 'scroll bar' on the right only an indicator? <font color="#cd627e">(17:14:42) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: yes <font color="#cd627e">(17:14:45) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: position indicator <font color="#cd627e">(17:14:57) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: similar in function to that on touch devices (17:15:03) ' medieval [c1280ada@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.40.10.218''] hat den Raum betreten.  <font color="#204a87">(17:15:25)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW: ''' I'm fine with that <font color="#cd627e">(17:15:44) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: ok <font color="#cd627e">(17:15:55)  <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: @medieval, what do you think? (17:16:24) ' Android272 [4bb965d7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.185.101.215''] hat den Raum betreten. ''' <font color="#7243f9">(17:16:32) <font color="#7243f9">medieval: I was dissconnected, about what?' <font color="#204a87">(17:16:51)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  not having an actual scroll bar, but two buttons <font color="#cd627e">(17:16:52) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: scroll bar proposal 4 <font color="#7243f9">(17:16:59) <font color="#7243f9">medieval: ok with me <font color="#cd627e">(17:17:19)  <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: cool <font color="#7243f9">(17:17:57) <font color="#7243f9">medieval: scrollabe also via mouse wheel? <font color="#cd627e">(17:18:02) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: of course <font color="#cd627e">(17:18:20) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: what do you think about the conversation between and manas on the list? <font color="#767981">(17:18:24) <font color="#767981">Android272: Hello every budy its been a long time but im back. illl write an email to explain things, <font color="#767981">(17:18:25) <font color="#767981">Android272: so fill me in as to what we are talking about here, <font color="#cd627e">(17:18:37) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: color picker <font color="#204a87">(17:18:43)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  Hi <font color="#cd627e">(17:18:48)  <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Color_Picker <font color="#767981">(17:19:24) <font color="#767981">Android272: ok sweet it has changed a bit since I left <font color="#204a87">(17:19:25)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  Deciding on details of the final final design <font color="#204a87">(17:19:43)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  It should be implemented incre,entally <font color="#767981">(17:20:34) <font color="#767981">Android272: I saw something about a scroll bar? <font color="#cd627e">(17:21:11) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: we've picked proposal 4 for now, but the conversation is still open <font color="#767981">(17:22:02) <font color="#767981">Android272: which is the first or the sencond? <font color="#cd627e">(17:22:30) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/8/84/C-picker.png <font color="#767981">(17:22:34) <font color="#767981">Android272: pickture... what should I be looking at <font color="#cd627e">(17:22:43) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: the one with the arrows <font color="#cd627e">(17:23:19) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: the third one can be ruled out right away, as it would only work with a Unity-like scrollbar <font color="#cd627e">(17:23:41) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: the tablets in the first are squeezed when there's need for a scroll bar <font color="#cd627e">(17:24:01) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: the second just always has whitespace on the right in case a scroll bar is needed <font color="#cd627e">(17:24:35) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: the fourth uses up/down arrows for navigation a thin position indicator <font color="#cd627e">(17:24:54) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: (all could, of course, be scrolled with a wheel or on a touchpad) <font color="#767981">(17:26:13) <font color="#767981">Android272: so this is for the desktop and tables, changing it just a bit. <font color="#cd627e">(17:27:01) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: anyway, before you came, I asked for comment on Manas's proposals: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/0/08/Color_picker_scroll.png <font color="#cd627e">(17:28:13) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: yes, it's designed for both touch and mouse input <font color="#767981">(17:28:20) <font color="#767981">Android272: would you be able to use the scroll wheel? I like the arrows for those who don't use the wheel, but someone like me would never use them <font color="#cd627e">(17:28:31) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: yes <font color="#767981">(17:29:36) <font color="#767981">Android272: then you could use the arrow keys as well. then what is the question. <font color="#cd627e">(17:30:46) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: we were deciding which one of the scroll bar proposals to go with <font color="#cd627e">(17:32:18) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: I picked proposal 4, alex and medieval nodded along, but of course the choice is changeable <font color="#cd627e">(17:32:38) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: anyway, everyone, what do you think about Manas's ideas https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/0/08/Color_picker_scroll.png? <font color="#cd627e">(17:33:12) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: (there was no response on the mailing list, and I'd hate to impose my own ideas when there's a difference of opinion) <font color="#7243f9">(17:33:40) <font color="#7243f9">medieval: I think let go with number 4 <font color="#cd627e">(17:35:41) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: about imposing my own ideas: that was mostly meant in relation to my stance on Manas's ideas <font color="#cd627e">(17:35:55) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: I'd really like a bit more input on them <font color="#767981">(17:35:59) <font color="#767981">Android272: I like the scroll bar more. its more triditional and you have to move the mouse a lot to move up and down the page <font color="#204a87">(17:37:12)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  Issues with that solution are the extra space needed <font color="#cd627e">(17:37:35) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: which would make the popover look uneven <font color="#204a87">(17:37:54)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  Either we always have a blank area on the right or the color squares would need to be resized <font color="#767981">(17:38:51) <font color="#767981">Android272: why is that? <font color="#767981">(17:40:02) <font color="#767981">Android272: what happend to it only having 5 colums of colors? <font color="#204a87">(17:40:30)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  Well, if we go with the Tango palette, 6 per row is preferable <font color="#767981">(17:41:00) <font color="#767981">Android272: Why? (17:41:07) ' mirek2_ [59b0ae7b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.176.174.123''] hat den Raum betreten. ''' <font color="#a408ce">(17:41:12) <font color="#a408ce">mirek2_: to fit a scrollbar in, the width of the popover would have to change (which we don't want to do, because clickable targets would move) or there would need to be a persistent whitespace (17:41:43) ''' mirek2 hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Ping timeout: 245 seconds). ''' <font color="#767981">(17:41:53) <font color="#767981">Android272: also I thought that there would be many different palettes to chose from? <font color="#204a87">(17:42:40)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  That would be implemented later on <font color="#767981">(17:43:25)  <font color="#767981">Android272: oh (17:43:55) ' mirek2 [59b0ae7b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.176.174.123''] hat den Raum betreten. ''' <font color="#cd627e">(17:44:03) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: palette support will come eventually <font color="#cd627e">(17:44:58) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: anyway, about https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/0/08/Color_picker_scroll.png <font color="#cd627e">(17:45:26) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: could you please read the thread on the mailing list that accompanied this proposal and then tell me who you side with? (17:45:28) ''' mirek2_ hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Ping timeout: 245 seconds). ''' <font color="#cd627e">(17:46:17) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: (I'd like to get the tentative design finished up and looked at by our G followers, so we would be ready for implementation) <font color="#cd627e">(17:49:13) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: anyone? <font color="#767981">(17:49:29) <font color="#767981">Android272: how long ago was this email sent and what was the subject? <font color="#7243f9">(17:49:37) <font color="#7243f9">medieval: As I said am OK with 4 <font color="#cd627e">(17:51:04) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: "Scrollbars in popovers" <font color="#7243f9">(17:51:18) <font color="#7243f9">medieval: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Scrollbars-in-popovers-td4020753.html <font color="#cd627e">(17:51:51) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: however, Manas's proposal also involves a different representation of "Automatic"/"None" and a different highlight style <font color="#767981">(17:52:11) <font color="#767981">Android272: why is there so much white space to the very far left of the color picker? is it for more room for longer named palettes? <font color="#cd627e">(17:52:38) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: the names were actually longer originally <font color="#cd627e">(17:52:50) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: I'll fix the spacing, don't worry <font color="#767981">(17:53:44) <font color="#767981">Android272: kk <font color="#204a87">(17:53:45)   <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  that might be easier to hit <font color="#204a87">(17:54:18)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  the bigger scroll buttoins as well as the automatic box <font color="#cd627e">(17:55:07) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: the scroll buttons are only wider, which, according to Fitts's law, only makes a difference when moving horizontally <font color="#cd627e">(17:55:51) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: so it's irrelevant in this case, as the user will be within the confines of the category, thus moving the mouse vertically <font color="#767981">(17:56:03) <font color="#767981">Android272: I do like the bigger automatic box. the other way is just a big wast of space. <font color="#cd627e">(17:56:16) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: on the contrary -- according to Higgs's law, the closer the two buttons are the faster one can target them <font color="#cd627e">(17:56:25) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: so it makes more sense to have them side by side <font color="#cd627e">(17:56:50) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: (the same reasoning behind the scrollbar buttons above each other in macOS) <font color="#cd627e">(17:57:12) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: about the Automatic box, please see my comments in the thread <font color="#cd627e">(17:57:38) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: also, the actual clickable area wouldn't change <font color="#cd627e">(17:58:06) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: (the whole automatic row would be clickable in both proposals) <font color="#cd627e">(17:59:01) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: my concerns in a nutshell: <font color="#767981">(17:59:28) <font color="#767981">Android272: the "color preview" is the box at the bottom of the page that tells the color? <font color="#cd627e">(17:59:39) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: yes <font color="#204a87">(18:00:00)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  ok, so a bigger automatic color box, and keep the rest of your proposal? <font color="#cd627e">(18:01:15) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: if you all agree for a bigger automatic color box, then we need to figure out what to do in case "None" is selected <font color="#767981">(18:02:01) <font color="#767981">Android272: have a bit box with none in it...? <font color="#cd627e">(18:02:17) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: I mean, what background color to use <font color="#cd627e">(18:02:26) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: since none != white <font color="#767981">(18:02:32) <font color="#767981">Android272: white <font color="#204a87">(18:02:36)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  usually one has a grey and white cherboard texture <font color="#204a87">(18:02:53)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:   *checkerboard <font color="#767981">(18:03:14) <font color="#767981">Android272: some may get that but I do think the cross through or the x is much better indicator of that. <font color="#cd627e">(18:03:27) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: that would make the label harder to read, though <font color="#767981">(18:03:39) <font color="#767981">Android272: that too <font color="#cd627e">(18:04:08) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: Android272: I agree, but a cross-through isn't well-suited as a backdrop <font color="#204a87">(18:04:35)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  a very faint checkerboard? <font color="#cd627e">(18:05:23) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: could you mock it up, perhaps? <font color="#204a87">(18:06:16)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  yes <font color="#cd627e">(18:06:23) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: great :) (18:07:58)  Android272 hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Ping timeout: 245 seconds).  <font color="#cd627e">(18:10:34)  <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: I see "requested CTCP DCC from mirek2: SEND "checker.png" 3577095157 59901 1608" <font color="#cd627e">(18:10:49)  <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: I'm on the web client <font color="#204a87">(18:10:54)   <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  ah, ok (18:11:26)  android272 [4bb965d7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.185.101.215] hat den Raum betreten.  <font color="#a5a7e7">(18:11:30)  <font color="#a5a7e7">android272: did i miss anythig <font color="#204a87">(18:11:57)   <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  http://ubuntuone.com/0OsPTzYt4xieIO093pox0h <font color="#204a87">(18:12:06)   <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  no <font color="#cd627e">(18:12:22)  <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: tbh, I think that's very hard to read <font color="#cd627e">(18:12:50) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: (kind of gives me a headache) <font color="#204a87">(18:13:13)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  better now? <font color="#a5a7e7">(18:13:52) <font color="#a5a7e7">android272: I do like it better lighter. <font color="#cd627e">(18:13:59) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: much better, though I'd still prefer for the text and the preview to be separate <font color="#cd627e">(18:14:14) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: (especially as "None" will be the default in many cases) <font color="#a5a7e7">(18:14:28) <font color="#a5a7e7">android272: could you put one with a / and one with a x beside them to see what that would look like? plez <font color="#cd627e">(18:15:03) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: nevertheless, if you all agree a full-width tile would be best, then full-width tile it is <font color="#a5a7e7">(18:15:15)  <font color="#a5a7e7">android272: I like it that way <font color="#a5a7e7">(18:16:15) <font color="#a5a7e7">android272: also I do like the highlighting of the selected color palette. but I agree with Mirek that it should be flat. <font color="#204a87">(18:18:07)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  updated <font color="#cd627e">(18:18:53) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: the checkerboard one is universal, so let's go with that <font color="#a5a7e7">(18:19:13) <font color="#a5a7e7">android272: thats not what I meant but it looks good. I meant a red x and / like most programs do. <font color="#cd627e">(18:19:16) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: but maybe still even a bit lighter <font color="#a5a7e7">(18:19:17) <font color="#a5a7e7">android272: sorry <font color="#204a87">(18:19:24)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  ah <font color="#a5a7e7">(18:21:11)  <font color="#a5a7e7">android272: should we decide here or let the mailing list decide what "none" button they like? <font color="#cd627e">(18:21:32) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: we should decide <font color="#204a87">(18:21:51)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  i changed them to red / or x <font color="#cd627e">(18:21:52)  <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: with the mailing list's input always being considered if there is any <font color="#204a87">(18:22:19)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  Well, I'd go with the more or less universal checkerboard <font color="#a5a7e7">(18:22:40) <font color="#a5a7e7">android272: yah lets go with the checker board. <font color="#cd627e">(18:22:49) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: alright <font color="#cd627e">(18:23:05) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: I'll incorporate it all into the tentative design <font color="#cd627e">(18:23:26) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: and then I'll ask for feedback on Google <font color="#a5a7e7">(18:23:46) <font color="#a5a7e7">android272: copy <font color="#cd627e">(18:24:20) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: I guess we can skip the gallery art for now -- I'd like astron to be here for that <font color="#a5a7e7">(18:25:11) <font color="#a5a7e7">android272: ok <font color="#204a87">(18:25:43)   <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  styles? <font color="#cd627e">(18:25:48) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: sure <font color="#a5a7e7">(18:26:26) <font color="#a5a7e7">android272: real quick is the gallery art like clip art? <font color="#204a87">(18:26:34)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  jes <font color="#204a87">(18:26:36)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  yes <font color="#204a87">(18:26:42)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  One suggestion from the ML <font color="#204a87">(18:26:42)   <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  Title <font color="#204a87">(18:26:42)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  Subtitle <font color="#204a87">(18:26:42)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  Headline 1 <font color="#204a87">(18:26:42)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  Headline 2 <font color="#204a87">(18:26:47)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  Headline 3 <font color="#204a87">(18:26:56)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  Text Body <font color="#204a87">(18:27:09)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  Those are paragraph styles <font color="#204a87">(18:27:21)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  Somebody suggested to add the Quotation char style <font color="#cd627e">(18:27:56) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: I would leave character styles out of it for now <font color="#a5a7e7">(18:28:11) <font color="#a5a7e7">android272: so what styles are we talking about? <font color="#cd627e">(18:28:17) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: until we have some sort of indication of what style applies to what <font color="#cd627e">(18:28:23) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: android272: style dropdown <font color="#a5a7e7">(18:28:31) <font color="#a5a7e7">android272: oh ok <font color="#204a87">(18:28:57)   <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  WHich has previews now <font color="#204a87">(18:29:33)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  So would you be okay with that selection, omitting Quotation? <font color="#a5a7e7">(18:31:14) <font color="#a5a7e7">android272: it just puts quotes around things? I think we can omit it. <font color="#cd627e">(18:31:18) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: if possible, it'd be great if we could only show the (hierarchically) bottom-most heading used the next one up <font color="#cd627e">(18:31:36)  <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: that's badly worded <font color="#cd627e">(18:31:48) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: I mean, show only "Heading 1" if no heading is used <font color="#204a87">(18:32:02)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  android: It aplies the 'Quotation' character style <font color="#cd627e">(18:32:07) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: show "Heading 4" if Heading 1, 2, and 3 are used <font color="#204a87">(18:32:15)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  it doesn't add quote marks <font color="#a5a7e7">(18:32:40) <font color="#a5a7e7">android272: I like that... but then again im a random writer and may have different sections written at different times. <font color="#a5a7e7">(18:33:31) <font color="#a5a7e7">android272: oh ok alex <font color="#204a87">(18:33:34)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  well, that would require code <font color="#204a87">(18:34:03)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  I think atm, it was only about the default selection, not the logic <font color="#a5a7e7">(18:34:17) <font color="#a5a7e7">android272: it would save so much room. we have like 9 different headings. <font color="#af7f00">(18:34:18)  <font color="#af7f00">mirek2:  alexanderW: would it be hard to code, though? <font color="#204a87">(18:34:34)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  I guess not <font color="#cd627e">(18:34:46) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: in any case, there's no harm in suggesting it <font color="#204a87">(18:34:47)   <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  there's already code for showing the styles in use <font color="#a5a7e7">(18:35:17) <font color="#a5a7e7">android272: then it should not be too hard to add this <font color="#204a87">(18:35:18)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  that could be copied and adapted to only look for heading styles <font color="#cd627e">(18:35:33) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: it doesn't need to be just heading styles <font color="#cd627e">(18:35:56) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: any kind of style hierarchy that appears in the dropdown <font color="#a5a7e7">(18:36:13) <font color="#a5a7e7">android272: what else? <font color="#cd627e">(18:36:29) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: (yes, right now it's just styles, but it's better to not hardcode it) <font color="#cd627e">(18:36:49) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: also, would everyone agree to having a drop-down menu associated with every style, ï¿½ la Google Docs? <font color="#cd627e">(18:36:52) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: http://gappstips.com/userfiles/attachments/news/49/styles.jpg?width=1050&amp;height=750&amp;nf=trans <font color="#a5a7e7">(18:37:19) <font color="#a5a7e7">android272: yes <font color="#cd627e">(18:37:21) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: this would make it much easier to edit styles <font color="#204a87">(18:37:37)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  yes <font color="#a5a7e7">(18:37:37) <font color="#a5a7e7">android272: I really like what google did <font color="#cd627e">(18:38:06) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: in addition to "Change style based on selection", we could add "Change style..." for the edit dialog <font color="#a5a7e7">(18:38:47) <font color="#a5a7e7">android272: do we not have a whiteboard for this? <font color="#cd627e">(18:39:29) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: do we need one? <font color="#cd627e">(18:39:37) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: the idea is straightforward <font color="#cd627e">(18:39:42) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: if we all agree, that is <font color="#204a87">(18:39:50)   <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  which edit dialog? <font color="#a5a7e7">(18:40:06) <font color="#a5a7e7">android272: I agree but iv been looking for one <font color="#cd627e">(18:40:10) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: the one for editing styles <font color="#204a87">(18:40:34)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  There's already Modify... in the context menu <font color="#cd627e">(18:41:52) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: I'm talking about a possible implementation of split buttons for the style dropdown <font color="#cd627e">(18:41:53) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: https://clickortap.wordpress.com/2012/02/19/notice-google-docs-new-style-management/#jp-carousel-973 <font color="#cd627e">(18:42:10) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: Modify... would be an additional entry in a style menu <font color="#cd627e">(18:42:27) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: (context menus aren't good for ux-discoverability) <font color="#204a87">(18:43:16)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  Change Style... would do the same as Modify..., right? <font color="#204a87">(18:43:43)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  Because the name should be the smae for the dropdown and the side pane <font color="#cd627e">(18:43:43) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: we could call it "Modify..." <font color="#204a87">(18:43:58)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  Doesn't really matter <font color="#204a87">(18:44:04)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:   *same <font color="#cd627e">(18:44:32) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: alright, I'll bring it this split button and headings automation up on ux-advise <font color="#cd627e">(18:45:02) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: alex, you can bring up your desired selection of styles for the dropdown, which I agree with <font color="#cd627e">(18:45:13) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: (except Quotation, as I said) <font color="#204a87">(18:45:43)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  It wasn't me who suggested this <font color="#204a87">(18:46:20)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  Also, 'Default style' should be removed <font color="#204a87">(18:46:32)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  and simply show Text Body by default <font color="#cd627e">(18:46:49) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: while I agree, I'd prefer to leave that discussion to you <font color="#cd627e">(18:47:23) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: (I'm not caught up with the mails, and it's not an issue that would interest me very much) <font color="#204a87">(18:48:14)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  okay <font color="#cd627e">(18:49:20) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: is anyone here interested in the feedback options discussed on the list? <font color="#a5a7e7">(18:49:41) <font color="#a5a7e7">android272: what is it? <font color="#cd627e">(18:50:18) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: see the mailing list <font color="#a5a7e7">(18:50:24) <font color="#a5a7e7">android272: kk <font color="#7243f9">(18:50:46)  <font color="#7243f9">medieval: As I said in mailing list, there should be Get involved too <font color="#cd627e">(18:50:48) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: "send feedback option" <font color="#7243f9">(18:51:00) <font color="#7243f9">medieval: (which needs update itself too) <font color="#cd627e">(18:51:33) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: (I'll leave the discussion to you, I'm staying out of this topic) <font color="#204a87">(18:52:54)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  But I wouldn't highlight it too much <font color="#204a87">(18:53:23)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  it's not strictly realted to feedback <font color="#7243f9">(18:54:02) <font color="#7243f9">medieval: yes <font color="#7243f9">(18:56:34) <font color="#7243f9">medieval: (Astron isnï¿½t here, it is pointless to discuss it here know) <font color="#7243f9">(18:57:55) <font color="#7243f9">medieval: Next topic? (19:00:03) ''' mirek2 hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Ping timeout: 245 seconds).  <font color="#204a87">(19:02:58)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW: ''' Default toolbar config <font color="#a5a7e7">(19:03:03) <font color="#a5a7e7">android272: I think im going tot go (19:03:25) ''' android272 hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Quit: Page closed).  <font color="#204a87">(19:05:18)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW: ''' Does it make sense to discuss this? <font color="#7243f9">(19:06:26) <font color="#7243f9">medieval: possibly <font color="#7243f9">(19:06:42) <font color="#7243f9">medieval: Gallery option will be removed? (19:07:28) ' mirek2 [59b0ae7b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.176.174.123''] hat den Raum betreten. ''' <font color="#cd627e">(19:07:30) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: sorry, my computer froze <font color="#cd627e">(19:07:44) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: did the topic change while I was gone? <font color="#204a87">(19:07:55)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  default toolbar conf <font color="#cd627e">(19:08:12) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: alright, what did you talk about so far? <font color="#cd627e">(19:08:25) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: any conclusions reached? <font color="#204a87">(19:08:30)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  not much <font color="#204a87">(19:08:34)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  just started <font color="#204a87">(19:08:50)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  does any app use the gallery in a toolbar? <font color="#204a87">(19:09:33)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  I think not <font color="#cd627e">(19:09:55) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: what do you mean? <font color="#cd627e">(19:10:06) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: I think the gallery is in all the Standard toolbars, no? <font color="#204a87">(19:10:48)   <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  Ah, I modified the toolbar <font color="#204a87">(19:10:50)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  okay <font color="#cd627e">(19:10:58) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: (I'm on an older version, though) <font color="#cd627e">(19:11:17) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: my netbook froze while I was building the nightly <font color="#204a87">(19:11:34)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  Did you ever succeed in building LibO? <font color="#cd627e">(19:11:58) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: yes, once <font color="#204a87">(19:12:12)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  Stuff has been improved during the Munich hackfest, maybe I should try again <font color="#cd627e">(19:12:17) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: but then style previews came and I've been hoping to rebuild <font color="#cd627e">(19:12:25) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: yes <font color="#204a87">(19:13:03)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  Okay, I'd drop Insert Hyperlink, gallery, data sources and maybe non-prining chars <font color="#204a87">(19:13:18)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  but add some stuff from the insert menu <font color="#cd627e">(19:13:29) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: hm... I'd like to go the other way <font color="#cd627e">(19:13:40) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: ideally, I'd like to end up with a minimal Standard menu <font color="#204a87">(19:13:42)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  which stuff we need? <font color="#cd627e">(19:13:45) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: with an appmenu at the end <font color="#7243f9">(19:13:45) <font color="#7243f9">medieval: (Why donï¿½t you use daily builds) <font color="#7243f9">(19:14:02) <font color="#7243f9">medieval: Help button= <font color="#7243f9">(19:14:06) <font color="#7243f9">medieval: ? <font color="#cd627e">(19:14:12) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: (I still need to respond to the thread tat I raised up about it) <font color="#204a87">(19:14:14)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  I do use daily builds <font color="#204a87">(19:14:37)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  Not sure about the help button <font color="#cd627e">(19:15:01) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: (such as on https://clickortap.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/overflow.png) <font color="#cd627e">(19:15:28) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: or http://bassultra.deviantart.com/art/Word-Processor-in-fullscreen-338262486 <font color="#cd627e">(19:16:12) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: I'd just like to have LibreOffice use one line for its main toolbar, so that it could look better <font color="#cd627e">(19:16:32) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: and have an app menu to fit in with Gnome 3, elementary, and move toward making menus unnecessary <font color="#204a87">(19:17:08)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  And drop most of the stuff in the upper toolbar? <font color="#cd627e">(19:17:27) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: I'll bring it up on the mailing list, I think <font color="#cd627e">(19:17:37) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: the stuff wouldn't be dropped, just moved into the appmenu <font color="#204a87">(19:17:42)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  But is that a change feasible for 4.0? <font color="#cd627e">(19:17:50) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: http://elementaryos.org/docs/human-interface-guidelines/ui-toolkit-elements/toolbars/appmenu <font color="#af7f00">(19:18:20)  <font color="#af7f00">mirek2:  alexanderW: it's certainly feasible -- it's just adding a drop-down menu, which should be simple <font color="#cd627e">(19:18:55) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: on the other hand, now that I think about it, it might involve a bit more <font color="#7243f9">(19:18:56) <font color="#7243f9">medieval: only text? or icons? <font color="#cd627e">(19:19:03) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: if we want to do it right <font color="#cd627e">(19:19:29) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: I'll mention it all on the mailing list, will be happy if you respond to it there afterwards <font color="#cd627e">(19:20:37) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: anyway, about insertion tools -- I'd suggest to move them to the drawing toolbar, since that's where Insert Image is placed <font color="#cd627e">(19:21:18) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: (and if we consider inserting an image as "drawing" it, then we should definitely consider a table or a chart being drawn) <font color="#204a87">(19:22:13)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  I'd restrict the drawing toolbar to the draw functions within LibO <font color="#cd627e">(19:22:44) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: there's already "Insert Image" and sometimes "Gallery" <font color="#204a87">(19:23:05)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  And therefore remove those two from the drawing toolbar <font color="#cd627e">(19:23:10) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: I'd propose to rename the Drawing toolbar to the Insert toolbar <font color="#7243f9">(19:23:25) <font color="#7243f9">medieval: there is already insert toolbar <font color="#cd627e">(19:23:56) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: that one would be merged with the new one <font color="#cd627e">(19:24:04) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: it includes mostly duplicates anyway <font color="#cd627e">(19:24:33) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: the reasoning behind this proposal is manifold: <font color="#cd627e">(19:24:54) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: a) having one single consistent place for inserting items into the document <font color="#7243f9">(19:25:02)  <font color="#7243f9">medieval: there is only 1 duplicate <font color="#7243f9">(19:25:38)  <font color="#7243f9">medieval: (but integrating them make more sense) <font color="#cd627e">(19:25:47)  <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: (I've been looking at the one in Impress, sorry) <font color="#cd627e">(19:26:33)  <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: it would also make sense to have text-related insertion commands in a separate toolbar (Insert text), which would appear only when inside a text field <font color="#204a87">(19:27:15)   <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  text fields are probably rather rare in writer <font color="#cd627e">(19:27:39)  <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: by text field, I mean any place where you can insert text <font color="#204a87">(19:27:39)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  you nean stuff like page number, author etc. ? <font color="#cd627e">(19:27:52) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: yes <font color="#204a87">(19:28:30)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  IMHO a single button would suffice <font color="#204a87">(19:28:43)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  exposing the sub-meu of Insert &gt; Fields <font color="#cd627e">(19:29:14) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: I didn't mean just fields <font color="#cd627e">(19:29:26) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: all insertion commands that apply only when working with text <font color="#cd627e">(19:30:01) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: fields, special characters, endnote, footnote, etc. <font color="#cd627e">(19:30:51)  <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: we could have these in a separate toolbar not shown by default, but perhaps have a button on the text formatting toolbar that would trigger it as a pop-up <font color="#cd627e">(19:31:12) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: (similarly to how "Align" is a toolbar hidden by default, appearing as a button on formatting toolbars) <font color="#7243f9">(19:32:12) <font color="#7243f9">medieval: one way to reduce space usage is using more popups <font color="#7243f9">(19:33:04) <font color="#7243f9">medieval: (but it makes more clicks and unusable for touchscreen) <font color="#cd627e">(19:33:06) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: we're talking about just reorganizing the commands, not creating new UI elements <font color="#7243f9">(19:33:14) <font color="#7243f9">medieval: yes <font color="#cd627e">(19:33:40) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: pop-ups should be usable with touch elements <font color="#cd627e">(19:33:54) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: anyway, should I start a whiteboard on this? <font color="#7243f9">(19:34:10) <font color="#7243f9">medieval: yes <font color="#204a87">(19:34:31)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  prrobably <font color="#cd627e">(19:34:47) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: okay <font color="#cd627e">(19:34:59) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: I will <font color="#7243f9">(19:34:59) <font color="#7243f9">medieval: Isnï¿½t the help button unsable know? When clicking on it it opens some odd place? <font color="#7243f9">(19:35:11) <font color="#7243f9">medieval: unusable* <font color="#204a87">(19:35:27)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  it opens the help viewer <font color="#cd627e">(19:35:28) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: it works for me <font color="#7243f9">(19:36:33)  <font color="#7243f9">medieval: http://help.libreoffice.org/swriter/.uno:HelpIndex?Language=en-US&amp;System=WIN&amp;Version=3.6#bm_id3149178 <font color="#7243f9">(19:36:48) <font color="#7243f9">medieval: It send me to this page <font color="#204a87">(19:36:55)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  Are you on win? <font color="#204a87">(19:37:07)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  ah, of course <font color="#204a87">(19:37:17)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  I guess you didn't install the offline help <font color="#7243f9">(19:37:19) <font color="#7243f9">medieval: yes <font color="#7243f9">(19:37:24) <font color="#7243f9">medieval: ok <font color="#7243f9">(19:38:10)  <font color="#7243f9">medieval: But help should be removed from main toolbar <font color="#204a87">(19:38:19)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  I think so, too <font color="#7243f9">(19:38:21) <font color="#7243f9">medieval: It has its own menu <font color="#cd627e">(19:38:34) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: I agree <font color="#7243f9">(19:40:13) <font color="#7243f9">medieval: Do you have the link about how much are buttons used in openoffice? <font color="#204a87">(19:40:40)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  there was an oo.org ux page <font color="#204a87">(19:40:55)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  can't find it right now <font color="#cd627e">(19:41:03) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Tracking_results <font color="#204a87">(19:41:41)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  is there also a picture for writer? <font color="#cd627e">(19:42:44) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: don't know <font color="#cd627e">(19:43:42) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: if there is, I don't know about it <font color="#cd627e">(19:44:10)  <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: most of the standard toolbar items should be applicable to Writer as well <font color="#7243f9">(19:45:54) <font color="#7243f9">medieval: Navigator= <font color="#cd627e">(19:45:54) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: if we're done with the topic, I'd like to discuss one more thing <font color="#204a87">(19:45:57)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  the table is useful, tough <font color="#204a87">(19:46:40)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  we could check which items that are not visible by default are pretty high-ranked <font color="#204a87">(19:46:53)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  e.g. .uno:InsertGraphic <font color="#204a87">(19:47:00)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  or .uno:PageDialog <font color="#204a87">(19:47:21)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  So maybe it would be useful to add the page dialog to the default toolba <font color="#204a87">(19:47:24)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:   *r <font color="#cd627e">(19:47:36) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: isn't that "Insert Image"? <font color="#204a87">(19:48:35)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  the ico is named insertgraphic, so I guess that's the insert image button <font color="#cd627e">(19:48:35) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: I'd prefer to have a dedicated page formatting toolbar and a way to select pages <font color="#cd627e">(19:48:57) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: that one's visible by default already <font color="#204a87">(19:48:57)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  .uno:InsertBreak also pretty high <font color="#cd627e">(19:49:26) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: could also be part of the page toolbar <font color="#cd627e">(19:50:19) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: if you'd be up for it, I'd love to start designing a way to select pages <font color="#204a87">(19:50:22)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  IMHO we should also work on the individual toolbars, but make the most used items part of the default toolbar <font color="#cd627e">(19:50:30) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: within a whiteboard <font color="#af7f00">(19:51:17)  <font color="#af7f00">mirek2:  alexanderW: I don't want to add items to the default toolbar <font color="#cd627e">(19:51:36) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: it's not a discoverable place <font color="#cd627e">(19:51:47) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: since it includes all kinds of unrelated commands <font color="#204a87">(19:52:34)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  They might be unrelated, but they are pretty exposed <font color="#cd627e">(19:52:48) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: as I said, I'd prefer to have a place for object-related commands (that's basically what the formatting toolbar does now), a place for inserting stuff (could be an evolution of the drawing toolbar), and a small place for file-related stuff <font color="#204a87">(19:53:57)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  file-related like printing, cut &amp; isert etc? <font color="#204a87">(19:54:03)   <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:   *insert <font color="#204a87">(19:54:09)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  pdf-export... <font color="#cd627e">(19:54:10) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: I'd like to bring order to all the toolbars <font color="#cd627e">(19:54:31) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: cut is object-related (depends on what object you select) <font color="#cd627e">(19:54:44) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: insert, as stated, would have its own bar <font color="#204a87">(19:55:02)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  Ah, I meant paste <font color="#7243f9">(19:55:07) <font color="#7243f9">medieval: Navigator, Data sources - are these not used one time per document? These are easily accessable from menu, no need to be on toolbar <font color="#cd627e">(19:56:45) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: I'd love to put in an appmenu/action overflow, like elementary and Android recommend for all its applications <font color="#cd627e">(19:56:55) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: or like that seen in Chrome or Firefox <font color="#cd627e">(19:56:56) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: http://elementaryos.org/docs/human-interface-guidelines/ui-toolkit-elements/toolbars/appmenu <font color="#cd627e">(19:57:03) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: for file-related commands <font color="#cd627e">(19:57:18) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: even MS Office puts these commands out-of-the-way <font color="#cd627e">(19:57:32) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: has them in a completely different view <font color="#204a87">(19:58:36)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  Sorry guys, I got to go <font color="#cd627e">(19:58:55)  <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: can you post the log? <font color="#cd627e">(19:59:05) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: (I can't) <font color="#204a87">(19:59:26)   <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  Up until now, or I leave the IRC client open <font color="#204a87">(19:59:30)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  yeah <font color="#cd627e">(19:59:40) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: I'll go as well <font color="#cd627e">(19:59:49) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: I think we discussed everything important <font color="#204a87">(19:59:57)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  okay, good <font color="#cd627e">(20:00:03) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: I'll put up a command organization whiteboard <font color="#204a87">(20:00:09)  <font color="#204a87">alexanderW:  Have a nice evening <font color="#cd627e">(20:00:26) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: you too <font color="#cd627e">(20:02:08) <font color="#cd627e">mirek2: good night, everyone <font color="#7243f9">(20:03:23) <font color="#7243f9">medieval: bye