QA/Meetings/2014/July 16

=Prep=

= Agenda + Minutes =

 Minutes:

Content from the meeting itself ("the minutes") will be displayed in blue boxes like this.

Before we Start
A few minutes before we officially start the call, we'll try to have a few people on hand to help assist newbies set up their teleconferencing gear, get things muted, and log on to all of our communication channels:
 * QA/IRC
 * Etherpad - QA Pad
 * Talkyoo or Google Hangout

Start
Put start time and attendees list in the table

IRC Minutes
 EXPERIENCING PROBLEMS WITH GOOGLE HANGOUT TODAY ---> Falling back to IRC chat (No Talkyoo meeting today)

jorendc: then probably wiki text hates you

jmadero: really really really hate it

jorendc:

jorendc: how come?


 * colonelqubit laughs

jmadero: jphilips: if you can't see the problem with 4.3, I quit on bibisecting it

jmadero: because I always screw it up

jmadero: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/Meetings/2014/July_16#NEW_ITEM:_Currently_we_use_lower_case_for_1_word.2C_CamelCase_for_more_than_1._Should_we_change_or_is_it_not_worth_the_effort.3F_Also.2C_should_we_move_away_from_things_like_odf.2C_rtf_filter.2C_etc...._and_move_100.25_to_Filter:XXX.3F_Interopability_-_is_this_just_for_major_formats_.28ooxml.2C_and_the_old_MSO_fomats.2C_or_anything_other_than_odf.3F_Lastly.2C_Ja

jmadero: I butchered it this time

jmadero: and now don't know how to fix it

jmadero: I added a new item and everything went awry

jorendc: lol

jorendc: that's a long link/title

colonelqubit: jmadero: think you added content inside a comment


 * colonelqubit had trouble finding german beer here

jmadero: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/gzecgwplavlwyfel5dcorm5djaa?authuser=1&hl=en

jorendc: eating now, will join after that


 * jorendc lasagna time o/

jmadero: niiiice

colonelqubit: just budweiser for me

jorendc: Is wine okay too


 * jorendc takes a sip of great German White wine

jmadero: German....

jmadero: blah - [beep]ing world cup

jphilips: think i need to restart the net as nothing in google in working

jmadero: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/gzecgwplavlwyfel5dcorm5djaa?authuser=1&hl=en

jorendc: jmadero: you mind inviting me to the hangout ?

Reisi007: jmadero: ouldn't start the video call because of an error.

Reisi007: Please try again in a few moments.

jphilipz: jmadero: about that bug you asked about, just open the file in 4.1 and then 4.3 and you should easily see the problem

jmadero: jphilipz: I can't see the problem in 4.3

jmadero: wth is going on

jmadero: is google hangout?

colonelqubit: Like groundhogs

colonelqubit: Who's in the hangout?

Reisi007: jmadero: Couldn't start the video call because of an error.

Reisi007: Please try again in a few moments.

jmadero: setting up a new one

colonelqubit: Please Stand By -- Technical Difficulties

Reisi007: colonelqubit: ^^

jmadero: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/g5vau4uuyu6dzj25vjlphesazua?authuser=1&hl=en


 * colonelqubit tells jorendc1 to hang out!

jmadero: jphilipz: join new room

jmadero: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/g5vau4uuyu6dzj25vjlphesazua?authuser=1&hl=en

jphilipz: jmadero: uploading a screenshot for you

jmadero: we're 10 minutes behind schedule, let's get this started

jmadero: Reisi007, jphilipz, jorendc1

colonelqubit: we'll always have paris....I mean IRC as a fallback

Reisi007: Liongold: Updated CSS right now

Reisi007: jmadero: Couldn't start the video call because of an error.

Reisi007: Please try again in a few moments.

jmadero: so apparently google hangout sucks today

jmadero: Reisi007: try setting up a new one on your side

jphilipz: crashed again

Reisi007: Link https://plus.google.com/u/0/events/coh4aa0o6navbabgp85laqbus14

jphilipz: google hangout

Reisi007: oh

Reisi007: same error

Reisi007: other service?

Reisi007: or do we type?

Reisi007: //we need our own service

Reisi007: ^^

jmadero: let's try again in 5 and then if that fails let's do IRC

Reisi007: jmadero: lets do 5 min IRC

jmadero: sure, Robinson can start in a moment


 * Reisi007 is trying G+ in the background

jmadero: agenda: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/Meetings/2014/July_16

colonelqubit:

--  We'll use IRC for now ---

'(start: 17:44 UTC )

colonelqubit: http://pad.documentfoundation.org/p/qa

jorendc1: +1

colonelqubit: wait, nevermind. we don't need etherpad for this

colonelqubit: Okay, who's in the meeting?


 * jmadero raises hand


 * jphilipz raises his hand


 * jorendc1 raises his hand

colonelqubit: cool

jmadero: let the meeting begin!

jmadero:

colonelqubit: Okay

> Project Management

colonelqubit: We now have a QA project in redmine

colonelqubit: does everyone have an account?


 * colonelqubit looks arund

colonelqubit: around

jmadero: yup

jphilipz: i dont

jmadero: need to get comfortable with it

jmadero: jphilipz: get one

jmadero: free

colonelqubit: http://redmine.documentfoundation.org/


 * Reisi007 is in

jphilipz: whats the purpose of it

colonelqubit: jphilipz: we can use it to keep track of TODO items, etc..

jphilipz: okey dokey


 * jphilipz wonders if he has anything TODO

jorendc1: colonelqubit: also action items of our calls?

jorendc1: I mean, all action items, or only the big ones?

jmadero: that's a good question

colonelqubit: jorendc1: Yes, some ACTION items are good

jmadero: I'd say any that are lingering and big enough not to get done fast

colonelqubit: We can keep track of our open ACTION items by just querying redmine -- that could be handy

jmadero: like "Joren will email Joel to say Germany should have lost the World Cup"

jmadero: not on redmine

jorendc1: colonelqubit: so we should use ACTION-RM or so?

Reisi007: @all: Nothing new about the dev guys who raised their hands

colonelqubit: what's the RM?

colonelqubit: oh, redmine

jorendc1: yes

colonelqubit: naw, I think we'd just put stuff in Redmine

jorendc1: so we know we have to create a RM issue for that

colonelqubit: if the # of todos in redmine filed against QA gets to big, we can start to think about a specific prefix to use

jorendc1: okay, and who's going to create the issues in redmine, to one who is assigned to the task during the call or is that you ?

colonelqubit: jorendc1: I guess I'd probably do it at the end of the call

jorendc1: great +1

jmadero: lol I feel bad about that setup

colonelqubit: or if the task already exists, we can just link to it during the call

jmadero: but I guess once the initial pain in the ass backlog is done


 * colonelqubit nods

jmadero: I think new action items per call is <5 total

jmadero: generally

colonelqubit: Any other q's re: redmine?

jmadero: so how are we grouping them?

jmadero: like is every item a new ticket

jmadero: even if they are very similar

colonelqubit: jmadero: sure

jmadero: okay sounds good

colonelqubit: I'm happy to use them and then throw them away

jmadero: yeah sounds reasonable

jorendc1: indeed, with a clear scope so we can close them 'as fast as possible'

jorendc1: we all know the endless bug reports

colonelqubit: jorendc1: feel free to open sub-items, if that helps to keep track of progress

jmadero: and then I don't think we have to discuss every action item

jmadero: like "whiteboard wiki is done" no need to talk about it unless we need additional feedback

colonelqubit: yep

jmadero: or if it's a bigger task and we want to celebrate

jmadero: should cut some time off call

jorendc1: +1

> UNCONFIRMED bugs

colonelqubit: Down to 962 from 985

jmadero: on that

colonelqubit: Numbers are looking good

jmadero: right after this call a 60-120 minute blitz

jmadero: we'll ping dev list to see if any bored developers want to help

jmadero: just confirming, nothing else

jorendc1: I'm in

colonelqubit: I was vaguely following conversation about our triaging methods/closing bugs

jmadero: ditto

colonelqubit: what was the result of that?

jmadero: guy offered no solution

jmadero: just complained that we close bugs when users report them shitty

jmadero: he got the same reply from everyone

jorendc1: ah yes, was a gentle rant as far I can see

jmadero: and he never replied back

jmadero: that workflow works well

colonelqubit: heh

jmadero: and I see no reason to change it

jorendc1: agreed

jmadero: and if that means we miss a nasty bug one of these days - you know that sucks

colonelqubit: Sounds good -- I just wanted to check in with y'all and make sure we're on the same page

jmadero: but everyone knows

jmadero: I believe strongly that users have some responsibility in this chaos as well

jorendc1: well, our working method did survived all his rant

jmadero: I liked we all gave basically the same reply

jorendc1: so I guess our base is pretty solid

jmadero: even though we didn't plan that

jphilipz: got disconnect, bad connection today for some reason

colonelqubit: jphilipz: no worries

colonelqubit: what was his last quip about melting ice?

jmadero: lol I didn't see anything about melting ice

Reisi007: ice? like ice cream colonelqubit

Reisi007: hangout still not working

jmadero: his statement boiled down to if the instructions are a little manageable, QA should take the time and energy to reproduce every document from scratch

jmadero: without asking users to provide examples

Reisi007: jmadero: I read the thread and I didn't reply because I was red hot

jmadero: I was irritated as well

colonelqubit: The comment was "Let some moderate heat melt your ice field."

jmadero: lol who knows

jmadero: makes me thinks he was a bit loony

colonelqubit: I thought it was some pun, but over my head it went

colonelqubit: okay, moving on

jorendc1: lets not waste our time with his comment anymore. I think we proved with his 'gentle rant' our work method is solid

 > Regression watch

Reisi007: colonelqubit: one nasty bug fixed today

Regressions in 4.3 not in 4.2:

colonelqubit: up from 37 to 41

Reisi007: nice to have it in .0

jmadero: Reisi007: #81110?

IZBot: LibreOffice-Chart normal/medium RESOLVED FIXED Threaded 3D chart rendering ...

jmadero: nope not that

jmadero: #81113

jmadero: the insert external one?

jmadero: oh okay

Reisi007: fdo#idk

jmadero: didn't know about a writer crasher


 * colonelqubit shrugs

Reisi007: fdo#81333

colonelqubit: neither do I, but good to hear that we've got a fix

IZBot: LibreOffice-Writer major/high RESOLVED FIXED Selecting table when comment present on page crashes Writer

jmadero: but glad it's resolved

Regressions in 4.2 not in 4.1:

colonelqubit: Regression count for 4.2 is up to 99 (from 85)

Reisi007: jmadero: agreed

jmadero: colonelqubit: ouch

colonelqubit: 99 regressions, and we ain't fixed one

jmadero: but maybe mostly just good QA work

jmadero: I'm not convinced it's actually climbing

colonelqubit: hopefully yes

jmadero: how many marked as Major+

colonelqubit: numbers are 65, 85, 99

jmadero: ...ouch

colonelqubit: so slowing down at least

jmadero: lol half full kind of gu

jmadero: y

jphilipz: must be all my doing

Total open bibisected

colonelqubit: Total open bibisected bugs is up to 108 (from 95)

jorendc1: great job jmadero

colonelqubit: I'll nudge the devs again

jorendc1: colonelqubit: great

jmadero: yeah - I think that we should prioritize those

jorendc1: I think michael S. is doing a great job here

jmadero: and all regressions

jmadero: according to the flowchart

jmadero: then at least devs can try to tackle the more serious ones

jorendc1: I think Michael S. is one of the biggest regression hunter

jmadero: yeah I've seen him very active

jorendc1: my kudo's to him

colonelqubit: Perhaps we should chat w/him about what else we can provide?

jmadero: colonelqubit:

ACTION: Joel will dig through bibisected and regressions confirmed bugs and prioritize according to flowchart

colonelqubit: good, good

needAdvice:

colonelqubit: NeedAdvice: down to 29 (from 32)

colonelqubit: I'll continue to chip away at that stack

jmadero: yeah my suggestion is we pause on adding more

jmadero: for now let's just skip hard ones

jmadero: let that number get manageable

jmadero: then bug devs again

jmadero: maybe once it's under 15 or something

jmadero: we can just add a few

jmadero: vs. giving them 50 bugs and saying "please please please"

jmadero:

jmadero: at least let them pretend like they are catching up

colonelqubit: I try to take a handful to them when things aren't too busy in the ESC call

colonelqubit: but most of the bugs that make it that far just make them groan or sigh

jmadero: lol

jmadero: if a dev can't understand it

colonelqubit: Many of them are know/expected problems

jmadero: tell them to be more aggressive with NEEDINFO

colonelqubit: *known

jmadero: and if that's the case, mark them as NEW

jmadero: and let it be

jmadero: just get them out of Unconfirmed

colonelqubit: Sure

colonelqubit: I think the problem is that they often exercise some weird aspect of the code, and while what they do might not be very common, there is debate about whether the bug is kosher or not

colonelqubit: But I agree: Good to either get them in NEEDINFO and get feedback from user, in NEW if we know it's a problem we want to tackle (eventually), or just have them ping another dev if it's unclear if it's actually a bug or if it's our bug

jmadero: yeah, hopefully if we stop adding, we can at least get like -3 a week or something

jmadero: that's a reasonable goal

colonelqubit: jmadero: I'm okay with the current #s -- I'll try to get it down closer to ~15, as you mentioned

> LibreOffice Updater

jorendc1: colonelqubit: just want to mention: interesting comment of SteveBell on the update topic. #c5

IZBot: bug 68274: LibreOffice-Installation enhancement/high NEW provide better update mechanism (was: Use Sparkle update with Stable / Beta / Nightly channels to keep users on the latest releases on macOS)


 * colonelqubit goes to read bugzilla

colonelqubit: jorendc1: "Kendy suggests using Mozilla's software updater"

jphilipz: sorry guys but i gotta run to the airport, was hoping the meeting would have been finished by this time

jorendc1: colonelqubit: not sure, but you were investigating options for a kind of branches, right?

jorendc1: (stable, master, ...)

colonelqubit: jorendc1: yes, that would be great

jorendc1: colonelqubit: so just want to mention that here

jmadero: colonelqubit: maybe talk to ESC about it

jmadero: ?

jmadero: the update mechanism

jmadero: see if they have thoughts

colonelqubit: I believe we brought up the idea of using Mozilla tooling for that, but I can't recall why it didn't go forward

colonelqubit: I think it's a great idea

jmadero: gotcha

Liongold: I'll do install it. About the update, maybe Opera got some info out, if you're interested.

jmadero: Opera is closed source

jmadero: so I'm sure their stuff is not MPL

colonelqubit:

ACTION: Bring up proposal to use Mozilla updater tooling for LibreOffice (Robinson)

Liongold: I know. But they wrote about some utility which helps about patching or something.

Liongold: If you want I'll find the post.

jmadero: ah

colonelqubit: Liongold: Got a link handy?

jmadero: sure, we've been searching for a better updating mechanism for some time

jmadero: I think everyone in QA thinks updating is a nightmare

jmadero: outside of ppa

colonelqubit: "a better" -> "an"

Reisi007: jmadero: not that bad on windows with si-gui

jmadero: sure but that requires futher steps

jmadero: which is fine, it's a workaround

jmadero: ideally it works within the software

jmadero: and you can select a branch

colonelqubit: +1

jmadero: including pre-release branch

Liongold: jmadero: colnelqubit: They mention something called bsdiff

jmadero: Opera updater

Liongold: http://blogs.opera.com/desktop/2014/04/opera-developer-22-now-easier-update-ever/

Liongold: Tell me if it's good when you have time to read it....

Liongold: They also mention UAc, no code but explanation.

colonelqubit: bsdiff is vaguely familiar

colonelqubit: I'll bring the topic to ESC and then we can go from there

Liongold: Ok, glad I can help.

colonelqubit: IF anyone would like to send me some notes/ideas before tomorrow, I'll read them over

colonelqubit: then we'll see what the devs say

> Bugzilla Migration


 * jmadero sighs

colonelqubit: no news from my side. I've been wrapped up with OSCON and the Boston Hackfest lately

colonelqubit: jmadero: let's chat about figuring out a schedule

colonelqubit: I'll have some time in August to dedicate to the process

jmadero: it's going to get harder and harder for me to find time

jmadero: just being honest, I had the summer

colonelqubit: but we do need to coordinate between Infra, Norbert, Joel, me, etc..

jmadero: multiple emails ignored

colonelqubit: yeah, I know

colonelqubit: We'll make it happen

jmadero: sure, worst case we do it in Bern

Reisi007: jmadero: extracted it a bit more, so integration is easier

colonelqubit: jmadero: or in Boston

jmadero: colonelqubit: but in August, weekends are rough now, after August 15 my schedule becomes really rough for at least a month

colonelqubit: (at least the planning)

jmadero: yeah, I'm fine with that

jmadero: Friday night maybe

colonelqubit: jmadero: okay, perhaps 2nd half of September might be sanest idea

jmadero: before people arrive Saturday

jmadero: we talk about planning at least


 * colonelqubit nods

jmadero: and ping those who need pinged a 100 times

jmadero: until we get a commitment


 * jmadero prepares armor, shield and sword

colonelqubit: +1

jmadero: I bet FDO guys are irked

jmadero: we bugged them a bunch

jmadero: said we were there

> Bibisect and Bibisect GUI

jmadero: no news as far as I know

Reisi007: colonelqubit: no news

colonelqubit: Reisi007: any news from you?

jmadero:

ACTION: Joel will poke the new guy again on email that showed up with dev experience


 * colonelqubit nods

jmadero: see if I can get him happy again

jmadero: god that sounds terrible

jorendc1: lol

colonelqubit: jmadero: sentence trying are write you?

jmadero: ...ol

Liongold: lol

jmadero: Captainmajid: any time for a bug squashing session after our meeting, tends to be a bit more entertaining when we go as a group

jmadero: plus more satisfying seeing the #'s drop fast

jmadero: next item

> Hackfests

colonelqubit: The Boston Hackfest will be in a week and a half

colonelqubit: Planning a few activities, including some intro to QA: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Events/2014/US_Summer_Hackfest#Activities

colonelqubit: If any of you have suggestions, please include them there

jmadero: and if anyone is around that weekend

jmadero: please join QA channel - we'll have at least some online stuff going on

jmadero: including hopefully google hangout

jorendc1: if I do have time, I'll surely jump in


 * colonelqubit warns jorendc1 about breaking LibreOffice during the hackfest

Liongold: I'll try as well.... from Malta of course


 * jorendc1 looks away


 * jorendc1 knows from nothing

jorendc1: knows nothing* jeez

jmadero: it's okay, no one speaks English well in this chat anyways

colonelqubit: That 'innocent' routine ain't gonna work this time!


 * colonelqubit bleeps and bloops

jmadero: jorendc1: soms ben je boos dat Engels de dominante taal in de wereld?

> ( Frozen Items)

colonelqubit: Anyone want to discuss one of our Frozen/Long-term items?

jorendc1: jmadero: lol, please stop that google translate crap

jmadero: lol

jmadero: colonelqubit: looking now

colonelqubit: I thought it was the Sweedish Chef

jmadero: nothing on those frozen items here

jorendc1: I think the sentences the Sweedish Chef forms are better constructed then English->Dutch in Google Translate

colonelqubit: Ok, then let's move to the New Item

> NEW ITEM: Demonstrate our Interoperability

jmadero: one is a brainstorming event, maybe we can actually discuss next call

colonelqubit: preach!

jmadero: so I'd love to somehow demonstrate our interoperability more clearly

jmadero: including where we fail


 * colonelqubit gets out his brain slicker for the brain storm

jmadero: so my idea is to somehow track lots of things - and provide test cases

jmadero: and show interoperability

jmadero: so for instance "basic text in one paragraph, nothing special"

jmadero: I see a long list of tests

jmadero: but let's think about how and then go from there

jmadero: right now I think there is just a lot of FUD out there about where we are

jmadero: and honestly, we don't know where we are

colonelqubit: So you're talking about compatibility tests?

jmadero: yes, but stripped down to the most basic level

Reisi007: jmadero: LibO has unit tests

jmadero: in some very organized fashion, that we can keep adding to

Reisi007: automated

colonelqubit: Some kind of programmatic proof that we can properly handle a variety of documents in ODF, DOCX, etc.. ?

jmadero: Reisi007: are those easy to add to?

Reisi007: jmadero: coding

jmadero: blah

jmadero: I want something that many in QA can contribute to

Reisi007: jmadero: or the test script

Reisi007: which pulls from FDO

colonelqubit: Unit tests aren't all bad

jmadero: sure, so let's talk about it next call

jmadero: hopefully via voice

jmadero: not IRC

jmadero: but I'd love to have like 5,000 really basic test cases

colonelqubit: with a little training, I think that Joel and others could start to write some unit tests

Reisi007: jmadero: yes

Reisi007: colonelqubit: agreed

colonelqubit: I think that we do need to think about the overall message, as Joel says

jmadero: so that's me, lol I want something that "many" can contribute to

jorendc1: indeed, I know on writer-side (ooxml etc) for every fix in the docx section, an unit test is added

jmadero: and we need to be transparent

jmadero: I mean blogs

jmadero: marketing

jmadero: the works

colonelqubit: Indeed

jmadero: to really discuss where we stand as a project

Reisi007: jmadero: script that

jmadero: and have easily accessed samples for the public to see

colonelqubit: So we have a few different motivations/groups that use LibreOffice

jorendc1: but please don't forget it do consume CPU time during build

jmadero: "oh yes, clearly this works well"

jorendc1: so we might now want to 'randomly' test something

Reisi007: needed 1) a PC 2) libo 3) file + expected result in 2 folders

jmadero: or "shit, that particular thing is broken"

jorendc1: and test it 1000x due overlapping test cases

jmadero: LibreOffice and MSO will be required

Reisi007: another tool we need

jmadero: okay let's talk about it live next call

jmadero: but that's my brainstorming idea

colonelqubit: +1

jorendc1: +1

jmadero: and I've suggested similar things in private behind the scenes

jmadero: others have agreed that we could use some clarity in this aspect

colonelqubit: I'll be seeing Italo at OSCON next week

jmadero: both internally and publicly

jmadero: like we know image handling is "mangled"

colonelqubit: I'll try to find time to chat w/him about some of the aspects

jmadero: but who knows how bad it is without clean sample cases

colonelqubit: I think our biggest win is to promote it as an overall user experience

colonelqubit: that we're doing this so that our users can experience maximum interoperability with their peers, with

> NEW ITEM: Whiteboard Naming Conventions

jmadero: okay now whiteboard, there are multiple things here

Reisi007: jmadero: Bibisect is bad

Reisi007: bibisect and bibisectRequest

Reisi007: +1

jmadero: so let's start with the easy one

jmadero: what does interoperability mean

jmadero: is it just ooxml and older mso files

jmadero: or does it include like rtf, html

Reisi007: jmadero: compatibility with other formats

jmadero: etc...

jmadero: is it "anything with any other format"

jmadero: I always thought it was just the major competitor

jmadero: meaning doc/docx, etc...

jmadero: yup

colonelqubit: okay, now go to town

jmadero: so thoughts on interopability - this would add to our clarity/transaparency

jmadero: if we start using this status more

jmadero: so is it every format not equal to odf

jmadero: or it is the major competitor filter

colonelqubit: I'm a big fan of KISS

jmadero: ?

jmadero: lol I'm hearing silence

colonelqubit: Keeping it simple

jmadero: and I'd love to have this finalized and done

Reisi007: jmadero: keep it short and simple

jmadero: what's that mean?

jmadero: in this case

colonelqubit: Well I'd like to have consistency, so I'd push Filter:xxx more

colonelqubit: that being said, I believe that devs will grumble

jmadero: colonelqubit: so my thought is we'd have Filterocx, and then "interoperability" also

jmadero: but if it was Filter:HTML, then no interoperability

jmadero: so you could easily query every single interoperability issue

jmadero: and ignore those other not so popular formats

jmadero: basically my argument is we are mostly concerned with odf, then ooxml, then microsoft old format

jmadero: and lastly, those other formats

jmadero: so highlighting all issues with MSO with "interoperability" is nice

colonelqubit: So what do we use 'interoperability' for right now?

colonelqubit: i.e. are we consistent?

Reisi007: jmadero: colonelqubit : As I won't remember/ use them no vote from here

colonelqubit: Reisi007: you won't remember what?

jmadero: colonelqubit: we are not consistent

jmadero: that's why I brought it up

Reisi007: colonelqubit: the filerocx thing

jmadero: Jay is using it for everything

Reisi007: I love typos

Reisi007: ^^ or they love me

jmadero: or do we just want to "retire" interoperability

jmadero: and swing fully to "Filter:XXX"

jmadero: stupid faces

colonelqubit: Standardize, standardize

jmadero: Filter : XXX

jmadero: so interop gone?

colonelqubit: (is my suggestion)

colonelqubit: New QA folks and new users don't know what 'interoperability' means

jmadero: so every other filter status should be retired

jmadero: for instance rtf_filter

colonelqubit: QA/Bugzilla/Fields/Whiteboard <-- NOT intuitive

jmadero: and we should move 100% to Filter : XXX

jmadero: I'm happy with that

jmadero: can we get a quick vote

jmadero: +1

colonelqubit: I really feel like the way that we use Bugzilla is bespoke and esoteric

Reisi007: pls lowercase

jmadero: I'll deal with devs

jmadero: Reisi007: let's deal with that next

jorendc1: +1

jmadero: for now just the filter isssue

Reisi007: filter:xyz

colonelqubit: For long-time QA and devs, there's just comfort with what we know, but that serves as a limitation to new participants

Reisi007: not Filter:XYZ

colonelqubit: and means that what info is tagged is less useful

jmadero: colonelqubit: sure but the reality is no one new is adding these

jmadero: and if experts can quickly go through 100 bugs and add "filter : ..."

jmadero: it'll help organize

jmadero: Jay has been doing some good work here

colonelqubit: oh, i'm not suggesting that new people add them (at least not at first)

jmadero: and I know some devs like it

colonelqubit: I'm saying that new people can't *read* the current descriptors on bugs

jmadero: filter : docx seems fine?

colonelqubit: "Filter:XXX" is much more readable

jmadero: yeah let's do it

jmadero: that's manageable

jmadero: good?

colonelqubit: Is 'filter' the right prefix?

jmadero: yeah I was told that by devs

jmadero: before I suggested extension

jmadero: MStahl said Filter

jmadero: or Bjoern

jmadero: one of them

slacka: So I think I found a strange bug/behavior in calc

colonelqubit: I mean, it makes sense w.r.t. how our code is formatted

jmadero: slacka: give us a few

jmadero: finishing a meeting

jmadero: yeah I think it's obvious

jmadero: people see filter: docx

jmadero: they know what it means

colonelqubit: (side note: We did have...might STILL have... a couple of different filters for one format, but I think that's mostly going away)

colonelqubit: And I think that was just export filters

jmadero: I'm happy with the proposal

jmadero: and if we push it hard - I will

jmadero: devs will accept it

jmadero: and sooner or later appreciate it

jmadero: good there?

jmadero: so now caps

jmadero: Reisi007 clearly has an opinion here

jmadero: I'm happy where it is

jorendc1: colonelqubit: no, we do have a different filter for SVG files if you do file>open or insert them as an image

jmadero: just wanted to figure out if we need/want to change it

jorendc1: colonelqubit: but it's a minority

jmadero: but filter we're just talking about the things after.

colonelqubit: Yep, so the proposal is to use "[Ff]ilter:XXX" to describe bugs that relate to a given filter/format

Reisi007: jmadero: a second, switched device

jmadero: so .svg would be filter : svg

jmadero: yup

colonelqubit: (no spaces, just to be clear)

jorendc1: filtervg (without spaces I hope)

jmadero: yes it keep sadding smileies

jmadero: filtervg


 * colonelqubit same-fives jorendc1

jmadero: so caps

jmadero: single word, lower case

Reisi007: " filtervg"

jmadero: more than one CamelCase

jmadero: filter = 1 word?

Reisi007: islandCase

jmadero: gah, changing it again

colonelqubit: I'd like to see consistency from one word to two

colonelqubit: So yes, either "Camel" and "CamelCase" or "island" and "islandCase"

jmadero: right now we have been using CamelCase for some time

jmadero: to go back and change those will suck

jmadero: and devs will get email pings

jmadero: etc...

Reisi007: jmadero: ok, it is just error,prone

jmadero: I don't see how it's worse than islandCase

colonelqubit: does that make sense?

jmadero: so right now we're neither of those

jmadero: we're island, CamelCase

colonelqubit: I know, and it's another source of confusion

colonelqubit: take mediawiki -- it uses Capital and CapitalCamelCase

jmadero: bibisect, BibisectRequest

colonelqubit: (okay, so it doesn't enforce the latter part, but it does upper-case all first words in page names)

jmadero: bibisected*

jmadero: so, what the solution, we accept what it is

jmadero: or we switch one

colonelqubit: I'm a big fan of consistency

colonelqubit: is it confusing to have things like 'needAdvice' ?

colonelqubit: maybe that's fine

jmadero: lol I think it looks a little goofy, but not confusing

jmadero: if that's what we decide to use

jmadero: I'm 100% about consistency


 * colonelqubit agrees

jorendc1: +1

jmadero: Reisi007: why is your opinion so strong for island, islandCase

jmadero: vs Camel, CamelCase

Reisi007: Less error prone

jmadero: for whom?

Reisi007: If you write quick, you ignore the case

jmadero: and we can monitor errors I suppose easily

Reisi007: So you leave it small

jmadero: but that's no good at all, then we might as well just do islandcase

jmadero: all small

jmadero: which to me is not bueno

jmadero: people using whiteboard should be experienced enough to slow down a little

jmadero: and do it right

jmadero: whatever "right" is

Reisi007: jmadero: no word seperation

jorendc1: lol, lets not spend to much time discussion or we should start or end with a case lets vote for islandCase or CamelCase

jorendc1: as long as we are consistent in it

jorendc1: +1 for islandCase

jmadero: yes, agreed, let's just be done with this

jmadero: thanks jorendc1

jorendc1: (I hate and forget always to case the first letter)

jmadero: sure, okay fine, Robinson can we agree with this

jmadero: I'm fine with that, consistency is more important

jmadero: islandCase, island

colonelqubit: I looked at Mozilla's bugzilla, and they use their whiteboard for other stuff... no help there

jmadero: haha let's just decide!

jmadero: 5

jmadero: 4

jmadero: vote closes in

jmadero: 3

jmadero: 2

jmadero: 1

colonelqubit: So jmadero what did you vote for?

jmadero: I changed it just to get consensus

jmadero: I vote for consistency

Reisi007: Island case

colonelqubit: island, islandCase ?

jmadero: Joren and Reisi have feelings for islandCase

jmadero: so I said fine

colonelqubit: That's fine with me

jmadero: okay done

jmadero: meeting done!?

jorendc1: okay, islandCase it is

colonelqubit: we'll need to do some updating

jorendc1: Neeext

jmadero: and we can start squashing

jmadero: I did 2 more bibisects while we did that

jmadero:

jorendc1: I'm ending my build here. /me had to revert some commits that broke debug-build

colonelqubit:

ACTION: Update tags in the whiteboard to use 'islandCase' (ALL)

'[Ed. note -- Wikipedia/Google don't seem to know about 'islandCase', so I chose 'wimpyCaps' as a descriptive term]'

Liongold: I have to go. Bye.


 * colonelqubit waves

jmadero: Liongold: take it easy

jmadero: jorendc1: still willing to squash?

jmadero: might be just you and I

jorendc1: jmadero: sure

jmadero: let's do it

jmadero: I'll handle Calc

jmadero: in reverse chrono order

colonelqubit: We should email out to QA and Dev list when we start to update the whiteboard tags, just so that everyone's on board

colonelqubit: and knows that we're changing things

Colonelqubit --> Will do that nowish

jorendc1: jmadero: I'm doing writer. also in reverse chrone

colonelqubit: I think that devs will be most happy with that

jorendc1: jmadero: but I hope my build is done in 5 minutes

colonelqubit: Okay, what's next?

jorendc1: colonelqubit: +1 that

jmadero: colonelqubit: think that's it

jmadero: so it's filter:xxx

jmadero: stpk;asfd

jmadero: filter:yxy

colonelqubit: yep

jmadero: good

colonelqubit: that means that things like 'perf' can be left as-is

jmadero: yeah, that is nice

jmadero: and bibisected

jmadero: also consistent with keywords


 * colonelqubit sighs

colonelqubit: don't even get me started with keywords

colonelqubit:

jmadero: lol don't start

jmadero: get to squashing

jmadero:

colonelqubit: Okay folks, thanks for the meeting

jorendc1: jmadero: lets discuss for 20 minutes it is biBisect or bibisect (abreviation of binary bisect

jmadero: ....

jmadero: shut up

jmadero: haha

jorendc1:


 * jorendc1 runs

jorendc1:

colonelqubit: I'll get these minutes formatted and out, and write something about islandCase for QA and Dev lists

jmadero: and replacing rtf_filter, etc...

jmadero: with consistent filter:yxy

jmadero: oh yes

jmadero: Jay wanted ooxml, etc..

jmadero: I don't

jmadero: he's not here to speak up

Reisi007: Filter:rtf

jmadero: if it affects more than just docx

jmadero: no Filter dammit!

jmadero: haha

jmadero: filter, lower

Reisi007: BUT could we getbthat from attached test doc

jmadero: oh geeze, no no meeting is done

jmadero: no more


 * jmadero screams

colonelqubit: So in my mind the quick test for ooxml would be if the problem affects more than one type of format

jmadero: okay fine

jmadero: filteroxml

jmadero: that's fine

colonelqubit: So unless it's explicitly known at the time of bug filing, we'd just see 'filterocx'

jmadero: yup

jmadero: what about older doc format

jmadero: or MSO format

jmadero: filter:mso97?

colonelqubit: and then later, if we determine it's more pervasive, then we can add 'filter : ooxml'

jorendc1: jmadero: that'd be filteroc I guess?

colonelqubit: what names are actually used in the filters?

jmadero: if it affects doc, xls

jmadero: etc...

jorendc1: because mso97 = doc/xls/...

colonelqubit: we have that filter list somewhere..

jmadero: yes

jmadero: that's what I mean

jorendc1: jmadero: grouping them = WW8

jmadero: if it affects basically all of the formats

jmadero: no a dev replied to Jay saying that

jmadero: he said that's just word

jorendc1: ah yes, WinWord8

colonelqubit: https://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/tree/filter/source/config/fragments/filters

jorendc1: grrr, I think my build is stuck on sd_html_export_tests

jmadero: colonelqubit: I don't see anything relevant

jmadero: for "all filters from MSO 97"

colonelqubit: If the plan is to say 'filter : blah', then that really is talking about our import or export filter

colonelqubit: vs. 'format : blah'

colonelqubit: does that make sense?

jmadero: ...I just listened to devs

jmadero: they said the extension/filter/format whatever should be called "filter:"

colonelqubit: Devil's advocate: What if there's a potential bug in MSO's ODF importer?

colonelqubit: or how they handle docx?


 * jorendc1 hits colonelqubit in the eye

jmadero: let devs deal with that

colonelqubit: do we still label it 'Filter : docx' ?

jmadero: we're just identifying the stuff after the period

jmadero: yes

jmadero: if the bug is demonstrated in .docx

jmadero: we put filterocx

colonelqubit: I guess either way, we're going to have deal with it ourselves -- no guarantee that they're going to patch their stuff for us/compatibility

jmadero: this is meant to just be a simple thing to add so that we can query


 * colonelqubit totally agrees

jmadero: ideally if every bug was marked

jmadero: devs could have a hackfest where they say

colonelqubit: Okay, well I guess we'll punt on the question of Word97 vs. Word2003 binary formats

jmadero: let's make docx filters better

jmadero: and just query every bug with that filter

jmadero: it's not perfect, but it's a matter of time spent

colonelqubit: We can just use 'filter : doc' for now

jmadero: the harder we make it

jmadero: the less likely anyone will do it

jmadero: sounds good

jmadero: okay dunzo, squashing

colonelqubit: heeeee's back

jphilipz: i'm back, i'm assuming its still going on right?


 * colonelqubit waves the flag

jmadero: jphilipz: nope

jmadero: we're done

jmadero: so for your notes

jmadero: interopability is no longer

jphilipz: anything i miss

jmadero: everything is moving to filter:yxyx

jphilipz: roger

jmadero: if it affects all of MSO, either ooxml, or mso97

colonelqubit: DONE with meeting: 19:17 UTC

jmadero: else we'd have filterocx

jmadero: etc...

jmadero: what else

jmadero: oh yeah no more CamelCase

jmadero: instead island, islandCase

jphilipz: what is mso97

jmadero: doc/xls

jmadero: affects all those old formats

jphilipz: okey dokey

colonelqubit: jphilipz: I'm going to email out to the QA and Dev lists about the changes

jmadero: and yes we know there is a difference between MSO 2000 and 1997

jmadero: but, to make it easy

jmadero: let devs worry about that

jmadero: this is better than we've been in the past

colonelqubit: okay, food time for me

jmadero: if we mark every bug

jphilipz: there is also mso xp and 2003

jmadero: devs will have a much better idea of bugs

colonelqubit: thanks all -- have fun squashing bugs!

jmadero: yes, anything doc/xls/etc...

jmadero: if it affects all of them

jmadero: mso97

jmadero: docx/xlsx/etc... (affects all) ooxml

jmadero: so filteroxml

Meeting ENDS

The State of QA
Including any Opening Discussion


 * xx- Bugzilla migration
 * Updates...
 * Re: need to reset passwords
 * Email notification ahead of migration
 * Tweak the change-password page and the front page to indicate that people will need to reset their passwords
 * Create an 'About our new Bugzilla' video as a part of our 'Intro to QA' series


 * Bugzilla:
 * SUGGESTION: Use bugs.documentfoundation.org/ to host Bugzilla
 * We can have both LibreOffice and some of the Document Liberation Project libraries all exist as top-level products in the bugtracker
 * QUESTION: Should we refocus ourselves as the TDF QA Team (to cover LibreOffice, DLP, etc.. ?)



weekly status
* https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/page.cgi?id=weekly-bug-summary.html

UNCONFIRMED Bugs
UNCONFIRMED bug count:
 * July 2nd: 985
 * Today: 962
 * Difference: -23


 * ACTION: Joel will come up with strategies (bloggers? other marketing?) to get us under 500 UNCONFIRMED over the summer (by the end of August)



Regression watch (Bjoern)
* Regressions in 4.3 not in 4.2 * Regressions in 4.2 not in 4.1
 * Previous Counts: 32, 37, 41
 * Previous Counts: 65, 85, 99



Topics for ESC?
Does anyone have any topics/concerns that I should bring to the Engineering Steering Committee (ESC)? (Robinson)


 * Query for bibisected regressions: Bibisected bugs
 * Broken down by component and Severity
 * Previous counts: 64, 81, 94, 95, 108



needAdvice Bugs
needAdvice bugs
 * Previous counts: 80+, 32, 32, 29



PENDING ITEM: Auto-updates for regular users and QA Testing

 * ACTION: Investigate auto-updates for regular users and/or for QA/testing purposes (Robinson)
 * ACTION: Open discussion again re:auto-update for QA on the mailing list (Robinson)
 * Related: - "LibreOffice-Installation enhancement/medium NEW UI: Provide RSS feed for torrent downloads" (Joel)



PENDING ITEM: Bugzilla Migration etc.

 * ACTION: Organize time to stress-test new Bugzilla VM (Joel)
 * ACTION: Make sure to suppress outgoing email during our testing of the test Bugzilla (Robinson)
 * ACTION: Perhaps add Simple HTTP Auth (htaccess) control restricting access to https://bugzilla-test.documentfoundation.org/ (Robinson/Norbert)
 * ACTION: Resolve url for hosting our Bugzilla instance (Joel)
 * Deal with acronym if using tdf.org url (tdf# ?)


 * ACTION: Set up call and/or thread(s) with the useful people on a mailing list (Robinson)
 * May 22 - Started process
 * June - Need to follow-up again with key people re: current progress (Robinson)



PENDING ITEM: Bibisect Repositories

 * ACTION: Chat w/Bjoern, etc... re: updates to bibisect repos (Robinson)
 * Propose docs on testing w/3.3.0 separately to place bugs in pre-LO category (Robinson)
 * ACTION: Provide documentation for mac bibisect on wiki (Norbert)
 * Perhaps ask Cloph for help re: Bibisect stuff, and keep Norbert's cycles free for Bugzilla migration

To review:
 * IDEA: Add bibisect into regular Developer workflow
 * IDEA: Create graph/tool to show which builds contain a given commit



PENDING ITEM: GUI for Bibisect

 * ACTION: Review BibiGUI -- any Windows/C# Python volunteer dev (Bjoern)
 * June 19 - Joel may have found a volunteer?
 * ACTION: Create an EasyHack a bug for the process of rewriting the existing C# code in Python (or Java) (Florian R.)

Related:
 * ACTION: SI-GUI: Contact the people running "interesting" Windows tinderboxes and ask for their assistance (Florian R.)



PENDING ITEM: Hackfests

 * ACTION: Check on status of LibreOffice building in the cloud for hackfests (Robinson)
 * Included in the notes for hackfest planning

Update on:
 * Events/2014/US Summer Hackfest
 * Other Events: (School in Pennsylvania)?



Long-term/Frozen Pending Items
These are long-term or frozen items (i.e. on ice until something else happens) that we don't want to forget about...

PENDING ITEM: MozTrap Localization

 * ACTION: MozTrap translation (GUI and tests) continues to be high-priority for QA (Needs someone to shepherd)

To review:
 * Other project who might want to work on translating GUI w/us?



PENDING ITEM: Feedback pages

 * ACTION: Sophie will shepherd native-lang versions of Feedback page

To review:
 * Next steps for NL versions (bug #?)



PENDING ITEM: US Merch Store

 * (Future progress)

PENDING ITEM: Most Annoying Bug List

 * ACTION: Joel will propose stricter guidelines for what qualifies as a MAB

To review:
 * How is the test going? (using the 'Priority' field in Bugzilla)

References:
 * MAB Tool - Server/service down for now



PENDING ITEM: Talk to CS Department/others at University

 * ACTION: Put up a message on the message board at his University and see who is interested (Joel)
 * Need to meet w/Charlie R. to talk with his Uni contacts as well



New Action Items
All items proposed between meetings go here

Whiteboard Consistency and Use
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New Items (Proposed/Discussed at the Meeting)
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=== NEW ITEM: Currently we use lower case for 1 word, CamelCase for more than 1. Should we change or is it not worth the effort? Also, should we move away from things like odf, rtf_filter, etc.... and move 100% to Filter:XXX? Interopability - is this just for major formats (ooxml, and the old MSO fomats, or anything other than odf? Lastly, Jay's been really active with whiteboard status - big thank you! (Joel) ===

Announcements

 * ANNOUNCEMENT: Our next meeting will take place... July 30th (Wednesday) at 17:30 UTC, unless otherwise noted on the QA/Mailing List.

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End
Put meeting-adjourned time in the table

= Topics = (Add topics below and reference them as in the Agenda/Minutes above)