Design/Meetings/2013-05-11

Attendees

 * astron
 * issa
 * mafiaz
 * mirek2
 * samuel_m

Topics

 * Photo Album Dialog
 * Flat Icons
 * Copying Styles from Templates/Documents

Log
[16:00] hi all [16:00] hi astron [16:00] hi issa [16:01] ESC update while we're waiting for others? [16:01] sorry .. didnt do it via mail [16:02] uhm ... but anyway, i cant tell much more than you could already glean from the mail about the button ordering i wrote to ux-advise [16:02] (there is more, but that is private) [16:02] (actually just one more topic) [16:03] oh, ok [16:03] also, i havent been able to attend last week [16:03] in fact it is getting a bit hard to attend for me... [16:04] hm... I can't attend either at that time [16:05] so it will remain as is ... for now [16:05] <@issa> hi all [16:05] hi [16:06] hello [16:06] <@issa> was there a time change or something? [16:07] issa, were using gmt [16:08] so, the local times will change between summer & winter [16:08] == samuel_m [~samuel@dslb-088-069-015-180.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #libreoffice-design [16:09]  Hi, has the Design Chat already begun? [16:09] it has just begun [16:10] so, first order of business? is there anything you'd like to discuss? [16:11] <@issa> astron: I'm a bit a confused, currently it is the time we started in winter [16:11]  I'd have some questions concerning the Photo Album Dialog [16:11] issa: the chat is always at 16:00 UTC [16:12] samuel_m: go ahead [16:13]  http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Streamlining-the-Photo-Album-Creator-tp4054397p4055364.html [16:13] <@issa> mirek2: I know [16:13]  These are suggestions from Mattias [16:13]  1st he suggests to remove the "Text Slides" [16:14] issa: we often started late for one reason or another [16:14]  All that does at the moment is to insert an empty slide [16:14]  Which you could also do manually after inserting the photos [16:15] is someone still developing that? [16:15] (the text slides feature?) [16:16]  No, I don't think so. Gergö didn't continue to work on it [16:17] well, then i guess id agree with mattias [16:17] also, you could then rename the insert photo slide button to a simple "add..." and put it at the bottom [16:17] => much cleaner [16:17] +1 [16:18]  Ok, I would also prefer that. [16:19]  Any objections against putting the "Insert Images" below the other buttons below the listbox? [16:20] none from me [16:21]  Ok [16:21]  Then he suggested to remove the Slide Layout "1 Image with Title" [16:23]  Btw this is how the Dialog currently looks like: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:PhotoAlbumDialog.png [16:23]  And Slide Layout has the Options: 1 Image, 1 Image with Title, 2 Images, 4 Images [16:24] <@issa> just a minute, the "Insert text" will be above the listbox but "Insert images" below? [16:24] Does Slide layout apply to all the slides, or just the selected one? [16:25] issa: insert text will go completely [16:25]  mirek2: It applies to all [16:26] <@issa> astron: oh ok, sorry I missed that part [16:26] hm ... samuel, how does one add the text in the end? [16:27]  You would need to manually edit the Slides afterwards [16:27] (title text) [16:27] ohk. [16:27] <samuel_m> But you could do the same without this option, you only need to change the Slide Layout [16:27] well, i guess thats better than reimplementing the whole spreadsheet editor there..? [16:28] <@issa> I think it should be a checkbox rather than an option [16:29] issa: good idea [16:30] <samuel_m> issa: You mean that you can apply it also to the other Slide Layouts (2/4 Images)= [16:30] <samuel_m> ? [16:30] <@issa> samuel_m: exactly [16:30] <samuel_m> Yeah that would make more sense [16:30] although you could end up with too many titles on the slide... [16:30] <samuel_m> But I wonder if we need that at all [16:31] <samuel_m> because you would anyway have to manually edit the slides to enter the title [16:31] <@issa> a photo album feature should be accessible to entry level users, so I think it could be this simple [16:32] samuel_m: could you maybe upload an example odp somewhere, where we (read: i) can look at it? (i currently dont have a nightly here) [16:32] btw, the placement of the Album layout is a bit misleading [16:32] (an odp mad with the photo album functionality, and that uses titles) [16:32] <@issa> astron: I think it should be one title per slide [16:32] below the preview, it seems like it's relevant only to the selection [16:33] <samuel_m> astron: one moment please [16:33] issa: of course, i would just be interested, how it would be displayed. samuel_m: thanks a lot! [16:34] agree with mirek2... [16:35] ...hm, on the topic of the preview: how should it work? should it always try to preview the entire slide or just the selected image? [16:35] <@issa> mirek2: where should it be then? [16:36] <@issa> astron: I like the way the mockup does it [16:36] issa: the "Album layout" label is unnecessary; the two items it groups can either be laid out above ore below the row with the listbox [16:36] <samuel_m> mirek2: You are right, I'll remove the heading "Album Layout" [16:37] same with the "Album Content" label [16:38] <samuel_m> mirek2: Well, then the only Heading left would be the "Preview" label [16:38] ... which I would say is unnecessary as well [16:38] <samuel_m> Here are 4 Slides with the different Slide layouts: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Photo_album_slide_layouts.odp [16:38] == mahfiaz [~mattias@gprs-inet-65-72.elisa.ee] has joined #libreoffice-design [16:39] <samuel_m> Hi mahfiaz, we are just discussing your suggestiosn [16:39] <samuel_m> *suggestions [16:40] hi everyone [16:40] samuel_m: good to know I made it :) [16:40] <samuel_m> mahfiaz: We agreed to remove the "Text Box" feature [16:41] <samuel_m> And put the "Insert Images" button next to the others, call it "Add" [16:41] <samuel_m> (below the listbox) [16:43] <samuel_m> Here's the history: http://pastie.org/7831383 [16:43] <samuel_m> Now we are discussing whether we should remove the "1 Image with Title" layout [16:43] samuel_m: thanks [16:45] <samuel_m> So everyone agrees to remove the three headings "Preview", "Album Layout", "Album Content"? [16:46] <@issa> yes for me [16:46] ah... wait. [16:47] album layout -- not sure; album content -- completely unnecessary; preview -- could maybe be clarified to image preview (as opposed to slide preview) [16:47] <samuel_m> When you start the Dialog, there is no Preview, it's just empty. And it looks weird when there is no heading [16:48] we have a placeholder image... in icon-themes/sw/ somewhere... [16:48] not sure that's a good idea though [16:49] perhaps it could work like the Gnome Open dialog, when you get the preview pane on click? [16:49] bah ..no [16:49] without an animation that is just unelegant. [16:49] and libreoffice doesnt really do animations [16:49] <@issa> instead of a placeholder image it should be an outline with the word "preview" in the middle [16:49] I don't like gnome style here, resizing dialogs are just confusing [16:50] issas idea is probably best here [16:50] <samuel_m> How should that look? [16:50] (but it should be localisable) [16:52] that sounds good [16:52] <samuel_m> can someone create a mockup and send it to me? [16:52] <samuel_m> or the list [16:52] I can do it [16:53] <samuel_m> ok, thanks [16:53] <@issa> mahfiaz: I'm doing it now [16:53] issa: cool [16:54] <samuel_m> oh the list doesn't accept attachments, so you could upload it in the WIki [16:54] my vote goes to the preview inside image box as well [16:54] <samuel_m> I'm also fine with it [16:57] <samuel_m> Now what about the Layouts? Should have a checkbox "With title" for all layouts or remove it completely? [16:57] on the topic of the "multiple images + multiple titles" idea: i dont think it will be as easy to make this work. the photo album dialogue is using pre-existing slide templates, and we dont have any that do multiple titles [16:57] <@issa> http://i.imgur.com/1EpvBNt.png [16:59] astron: the title would be above the grid of images, not one per image [16:59] mirek2: right. that would be possible... [16:59] didnt think about that [17:01] <samuel_m> I guess it wouldn't hurt to leave the checkbox there [17:01] <samuel_m> Though the Image is too small with the current layout [17:02] samuel_m: do you mean the "Keep aspect ratio" checkbox? [17:02] <samuel_m> The Layouts Impress has all have a border [17:03] <samuel_m> mahfiaz: No, We wanted to create a checkbox "With Title" that does what the "1 Image with Title" Layout does, but for all Layout options [17:09] <samuel_m> Hm I think my preference is to remove this option. I think it will create more confusion than it is actually helpful. [17:10] which option now? the title option? [17:10] <@issa> I think the option is very helpful, but we need a smarter label [17:12] <samuel_m> astron: yes [17:13] i dont think we should remove it either. (agree with issa here) [17:14] <samuel_m> So how could the label be called? [17:14] as for smart labelling: is "add title" good enough? [17:15] would it be possible to preview the slide instead of the image so that the user would know what he would get? [17:16] given our different interpretations of what "add title" would do, a preview would clear things up [17:17] <samuel_m> mirek2: I don't know how to create previews of the actual Slides, but we could use Images [17:17] <@issa> mirek2: it could be "add slide titles" or "title slides" [17:17] http://imgur.com/t5AxyIP [17:18] mirek2: it would not make sense to preview slides, unless you also change the list on the left [17:19] yeah, I suppose [17:19] (it could be a tree that you could expand to see the images you have put on the slides or something like this) [17:19] not sure that cuts it [17:19] <samuel_m> I think generic Images showing the general layout would be nice. Just some grey boxes for each image and a box for the title or such [17:19] This image explains just that: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Create_photo_album_4-images.png [17:19] I was just saying that the titles feature might need a preview, as people can have different expectations of what iw ould do [17:20] or perhaps we could use the label "Add title to each slide" for the textbox? [17:23] about the image image positioning: IMO this plugin should make images as big as possible, this is the only way I would ever want to create a photo album [17:27] hm, right [17:28] <samuel_m> I also agree. [17:30] <@issa> I think the zoom or crop option is good [17:31] zoom or crop? [17:32] <samuel_m> I'm AFK for 15min [17:33] <@issa> astron: I meant zoom or fit [17:33] <@issa> (zoom is crop) [17:36] hm... ok, but that would be a new feature then? [17:36] <@issa> I guess [17:41] == mahfiaz [~mattias@gprs-inet-65-72.elisa.ee] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] [17:48] seems we've reached a dead end? [17:48] <samuel_m> You mean we should have the user choose between zoom or crop and remove the "Keep Aspect Ratio" checkbox [17:49] samuel_m agree with that conclusion [17:50] choose between zoom or fit [17:50] "zoom" would zoom the picture and crop it to fit the area, right? [17:50] <samuel_m> right [17:50] "crop" is a better term than "zoom" for the feature [17:52] ok... should we close this topic then? [17:52] <samuel_m> What did we decide about the Title issue? [17:52] I'd be in favor of the option "Add Title to Each Slide" [17:53] <samuel_m> That sounds good [17:53] <samuel_m> And what about the preview? [17:54] I liked Issa's proposal [17:54] and agree that it should only preview the picture, not the slide [17:54] right -- no label, just a placeholder saying [Preview] [17:55] <samuel_m> Ok [17:56] <@issa> the slide layout label will be kept though, right? [17:56] <samuel_m> issa: can you send me a png image for the preview placeholder which I can then use in the Dialog? [17:56] <samuel_m> issa: I guess so [17:57] samuel_m: i think it would be better to generate it on the fly, especially for localisation [17:57] <samuel_m> Hm, should we maybe remove the word "Preview" from it and just put a generic Image there? [17:58] no, because that would be a bit misleading [17:58] (it would look a bit like there already is an image) [17:58] <@issa> for now you can use the lines image and add "preview" on top of it [17:59] that sounds good [17:59] <samuel_m> Ok. Not sure if that works, but I'll give it a try. [17:59] I wouldn't be for embedding "Preview" in the image [18:00] for localization as well as styling purposes (Ubuntu is not a common system font) [18:01] <samuel_m> Yeah, I will put a translatable label instead [18:02] <@issa> I think the black lines wouldn't be always black but will depend on theme, but for now they will do [18:02] mirek2: what do you mean by "(Ubuntu is not a common system font)"? [18:02] astron: I just mean that, if the text was embeded, the Ubuntu font could stand out on a system that has a different system font [18:03] like Windows or macOS [18:03] why would it be the ubuntu font unless on ubuntu? [18:03] here's what i had in mind: http://imgur.com/NoGA97c [18:04] astron: that's why I'm saying the text shouldn't be embeded in the image [18:04] astron: looks good as well [18:10] so... what do others think? [18:10] samuel_m: what do you think?

--- continued on PiratePad because of Freenode outage ---

18:32 Astron: i linked to imgur.com/NoGA97c btw 18:35 issa: this is the one without the text http://i.imgur.com/kU99Yer.png 18:37 Astron: hm ... i like mine better :) i am biased of course 18:37 Astron: ftr: mahfiaz linked to http://www.upload.ee/files/3303498/Example_presentation.odp.html 18:37 Astron: (i agree it looks much better than what we have now) 18:38 Astron: but it is also harder to do 18:38 Samuel: I think it's doable 18:38 issa: also it goes a bit against the concept of using "what's already there" 18:39 issa: I mean since this is Impress and not another program I think it should use the current slide layouts 18:39 issa: (or add the new ones as new slide layouts) 18:40 Astron: hm, no i guess this would largely depend on the masterpage... 18:40 mahfiaz: issa, are you talking about dialog or template? 18:40 issa: Astron: oh right 18:41 issa: mahfiaz: template 18:42 mahfiaz: it is a dumb question at this point, but where can I get this dialog in the Impress? 18:42 Samuel: I like your layout, mahfiaz, but I think it's too specific if that is the default behavior. In future we might have some templates specifically for the Photo Album Dialog, there it would fit better 18:42 Astron: mahfiaz: you need to use a nightly... 18:42 Samuel: mahfiaz, Insert->Image->Photo Album. But you need a recent build 18:43 Samuel: https://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/master/ 18:43 mahfiaz: no builds for linux x86_64, but thanks anyway 18:45 Samuel: I think the easiest way to test those is on windows 18:45 mahfiaz: so what would be the other use if not for photo album? show scientific images about microbes? (I would do this fullscreen as well) 18:45 Astron: mahfiaz: with different distros etc, it is easier to try a windows build under wine anyway 18:45 Astron: mahfiaz: well, some people may have scanned slides or so 18:46 Astron: (basically, redoing someone elses presentation) 18:46 Samuel: I don't understand, what's the problem now? 18:47 mahfiaz: I'm just trying to get my head around how using current layouts would be useful 18:48 Astron: then, take a look at michael meeks presentations showing off libreoffice features ... hes using a screenshot on most pages 18:53 mahfiaz: Astron, thanks, found one, really nice and useful 18:54 Mirek: I think it'd be best if the dialog stuck to what's possible with the current layouts 18:54 Mirek: we certainly don't want people to use this dialog to insert a picture with a prettier layout 18:55 Mirek: I mean, using the dialog to insert a single image slide 18:55 Mirek: it'd be good if we could add a layout or two 18:56 Astron: mahfiaz: i meant one of these slide shows as an example what the photo album functionality could be useful for 18:56 Astron: mirek: guess i agree. 18:57 Samuel: The problem with the default Slide layouts is, that the have *huge* borders, so the image is very small in the end 18:57 Samuel: but that's not what you want when creating a photo album 19:00 Samuel: Don't know if there is a way to change those 19:01 Mirek: so, my advice would be to add the 3 layouts that we want 19:01 Mirek: I would also love to see a layout for a centered title 19:01 Mirek: but that's a whole other topic 19:01 Astron: three? should it not be four? 19:02 Samuel: 1/2/4 Images 19:02 Samuel: three layouts 19:02 Samuel: actually six 19:02 Astron: yeah. 19:02 Samuel: with/without title 19:03 Astron: thats what i meant 19:03 mahfiaz: layouts won't do cropped images 19:05 mahfiaz: wrong, they kind of do still, but changing aspect ratios of already cropped images (or not) won't happen later 19:07 Mirek: hm, not sure how to deal with cropped images 19:10 Mirek: but we can agree to add the 3 layouts, right? 19:10 Samuel: yeah 19:11 mahfiaz: would these images use as much screen space as possible? 19:12 Mirek: that would be best 19:12 mahfiaz: if yes, then absolutely 19:13 Mirek: samuel, does that sound doable? 19:13 Samuel: That needs to be documented on the Whiteboard, it's not something I can do immediately. 19:14 Mirek: I think the designs proposed in the presentation cover it well... 19:14 Mirek: what else is there to add? 19:17 Samuel: Ok, then just link the presentation on the whiteboard 19:17 Samuel: that we not forget it or that others can step in and implement it 19:18 Mirek: I wouldn't say that a full-fledged whiteboard is necessary 19:20 Mirek: perhaps I could just add a link to the Developer Blueprints section we have? 19:20 Samuel: should we create a bug report instead? that's what we have already: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Photo_Album_Creator 19:20 Astron: i think a whiteboard is fine ... just umho 19:21 Astron: ^umho^imho 19:22 Mirek: can you create it then? :) 19:22 Mirek: I assume we've agreed on the final design? 19:23 mahfiaz: I modified the presentation a little, added an example about "Fit to slide" image with caption and the last slide has modified layout title position, which shows how using layouts *with* title could look like (please note that the black box is not shown when actually presenting) 19:23 mahfiaz: http://www.upload.ee/files/3303744/Example_presentation_v2.odp.html 19:35 Mirek: not sure I understand what you said about the last slide 19:35 Mirek: what black box? 19:36 Mirek: how is the title position modified? 19:41 mahfiaz: Mirek, I changed the title position by hand, but for photo template this could be the default position 19:41 Mirek: wouldn't centered be the best position? 19:42 mahfiaz: and when you decide to leave it empty the box with "Click to add title" shows only when editing 19:43 mahfiaz: centered title would cover the picture, usually bottom is where images have the most unnecessary information 19:44 Mirek: right, the way you mocked it up is good 19:44 Mirek: so... everyone agree on the proposals? 19:47 Samuel: I think it's ok. Can we agree to add an option whether the title is on top or at the bottom? 19:47 mahfiaz: would this mean extra layouts? 19:48 Samuel: It's not layouts, it's positioning with the "None" Layout 19:48 Samuel: At least that's what I thought of 19:51 Samuel: Well, I have to leave now. Thanks for all thoughts, we made some good decisions. Feel free to continue without me. 19:52 Samuel: see you 19:52 Mirek: see you :) 19:52 Mirek: perhaps we should move to another topic now? 19:55 mahfiaz: agreed 19:57 Mirek: ok -- anything one of you two would like to discuss? 19:59 mahfiaz: I'll be AFK for the next 15 minutes, and no topic I'd like to raise today 19:59 Astron: hm... 20:00 Mirek: ok 20:00 Astron: issa: how is the flat icon theme going? 20:00 Astron: (also: can you somehow coordinate with mariano) 20:00 Astron: ? 20:03 Astron: hello? 20:05 Mirek: I'm still here... 20:05 Mirek: perhaps we could discuss something else until Issa shows up? 20:06 Astron: we still need a design for the style-copying thing that used to be in the template manager ... 20:07 Mirek: right 20:07 Mirek: I posted to the mailing list about that 20:07 Astron: hm, right. 20:08 Mirek: I would propose just having separate "Load Styles from Template" and "Load Styles from File" entries in the Styles and Formatting menu, with the former launching the Template manager, but without a toolbar and with "Cancel" and "Load" buttons at the bottom right, and the latter launching the Open dialog. 20:08 Mirek: thoughts? 20:08 Astron: right. thants good - but could you make a mockup of it, please? 20:08 Astron: -n 20:10 issa: sorry I'm back 20:10 Astron: also, i think it used to be possible to load styles from another open document 20:10 Mirek: mockup of the tweaked template dialog, I assume? 20:10 Mirek: as I said, I would use the Open dialog for that 20:12 Astron: mirek: yes. but also, we need a dialogue to select the styles that shoud be copied over 20:12 Mirek: hm, ok, I might make a mockup 20:14 Astron: btw, we have retained the ability to copy all styles from a template, but it does not use the new template manager: in the the Styles and Formatting window, click the top-right icon, and choose Load Styles 20:15 Astron: so, that would probably be the best integration point 20:16 Mirek: yup 20:16 Mirek: my thoughts exactly 20:18 Astron: ok.... that solved, i guess... 20:18 Astron: issa... then... 20:18 Astron: i know you spoke with mariano about the theme -- is there some way you can work together? 20:19 issa: I didn't actually 20:19 issa: I was travelling the past ten days and just saw his message today 20:19 issa: I'm not sure how but hopefully there is 20:19 issa: I just need to figure it out 20:20 issa: (so yes I don't have real updates) 20:20 Astron: ok. i know it is a bit hard to communicate with mariano ... but maybe you can get him to contribute directly... 20:21 issa: Norah is currently working on the shapes and they are shaping up nicely 20:21 Astron: actually not sure how much of the faenza theme is hiss work, though. 20:21 Astron: oh, who is norah? 20:21 Astron: another kacst student? 20:21 issa: another kacst employee 20:21 Astron: /me has been "away" too long. 20:22 Astron: oh, i thought you were students..=? 20:22 issa: not really, we are a research organization 20:22 Astron: ohk. 20:22 issa: but we also are the nation FOSS program 20:22 issa: *national 20:23 Astron: hm... i have probably misunderstood that then before 20:24 issa: so the shapes are "shaping up" nicely, needs a few adjustments to stick to guidelines and they she can probably show them here 20:24 issa: don't worry about it 20:24 issa: *and then she can 20:24 issa: as for Mariano splitting work in a way that ensures consistency is a bit hard 20:25 issa: but I will try my best 20:26 Astron: okay. thanks 20:28 Astron: ok. shall we close the chat for today? 20:30 issa: I have nothing to add 20:31 Mirek: hm, I guess it's too late to open up the topic of the color picker 20:31 Mirek: so, yes, let's end the chat for today 20:31 Astron: ok... i dont have a log of the start of the conversation... so i cant upload to the wiki. 20:31 Astron: samuel, you maybe? 20:31 Mirek: I uploaded the beginning 20:31 Mirek: the non-Pirate Pad parts 20:32 Astron: ah, good. then you can do the log uploading thing :) 20:33 Astron: ok. bye all.