Design/Meetings/2013-09-28

Attendees

 * mirek2
 * yoroy

Topics

 * Design process (LibreOffice's and Drupal's)
 * https://prague2013.drupal.org/keynote/aral-balkan#

Log
[17:33] mirek2: hi. I'm curious [17:33] I'm a UX designer for the Drupal project and looking into how other (large) open source projects run their ux work [17:35] alright [17:35] well, we're run entirely by volunteers [17:35] and rarely have the chance to work with developers, as there's not much developer interest [17:36] we're a very small team, though, and lately not as active as I would've liked [17:37] what we do depends on the situation [17:37] for example, right now we're working on a refreshed icon set [17:38] and we're also in the process of weeding out the Options dialog [17:40] sounds similar :) [17:40] though we work directly with developers in the issue queues [17:40] getting them interested to do things can be a challenge though [17:41] yes [17:41] do you run usability tests? [17:41] the business model for libreoffice is built around providing support [17:42] yoroy: no [17:42] we try to base our decisions on our Principles https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Principles and the Gnome HIG [17:42] test data can help convince that UX problems really exist [17:43] and need fixing [17:43] the problem for us isn't that the devs are unaware of UX bugs [17:44] the problem is that paying customers are asking for interoperability bugs to be fixed instead [17:44] and there's no devs for the UX bugs [17:45] in the future, though, once we have more time and volunteers, I'd love to do user tests [17:46] for now, though, we're planning a UX hackfest, so I'm hoping that will get things started in the UX arena [17:46] ah ok, that's a different model indeed. [17:47] In Drupal almost nobody is paid to work on development [17:47] And definately nobody from the Drupal Association [17:48] that's too bad [17:48] Sometimes some folk are sponsored to work on certain aspects [17:49] ok [17:49] such as? [17:50] something like gnome is doing now with "privacy"? [17:51] Somebody was allowed to work 50% of his working time on the 'configuration management' initiative for a year [17:51] There was a small team of devs who worked to get the most popular 'Views' module into core [17:51] Another person is paid to make MongoDB integration possible [17:52] I don't know about the Gnome privacy thing :) [17:53] they have an initiative once in a while, "accessibility" was their first one [17:54] "privacy" is their second [17:55] we're also held back by our toolkit (which is too hard to switch) [17:56] actually, not just the toolkit, but old code in general [17:56] e.g. adding custom colors is unnecessarily hard, but it's a hard thing to fix [17:56] and pictures are impossible to rotate in Writer [17:57] in terms of the toolkit, we can't do a lot of things [17:57] but things are slowly improving, though [17:58] we are moving our dialogs to Glade's .ui format [17:58] ha, yes, adding custom colors is quite a lot of work [17:59] how many people are involved in Drupal's UX team? [18:00] also, do the Drupal contributors ever meet (conferences, hackfests, ...)? [18:01] there's about 4 or 5 people who contribute regularly and consistently and have a grasp on the whole thing [18:01] I'd say 10 - 15 people who help out with research, visual design [18:01] Similar amount of devs who are interested in providing the code for things [18:02] oh yes, we just had Drupalcon Prague this week. 1600 attendees [18:02] We have weekly irc meetings [18:03] Drupalcon is twice a year, once in US, once in Europe each year [18:03] :) funny, I'm from Prague [18:03] and we just had a conference these past 3 days [18:03] in Milano [18:03] ha really, nice. We took over the Corinthia hotel next to the conference center [18:04] so do you do any usability tests? [18:04] yes [18:05] https://drupal.org/node/1162000 [18:06] great :) [18:08] This is our discussion group http://groups.drupal.org/usability [18:10] so what does your design process look like? [18:11] good question :) [18:12] :) [18:12] It's a mix between 1: fixing things based on usability tests [18:12] 2: introduce new features to extend Drupal capabilities [18:12] 3: fix the mess all the devs are making [18:12] mostly 3 :-) [18:13] But for Drupal 8 we identified some specific areas that needed improvement. We researched, designed and brought that as a spec into development issue queue. [18:14] There is a lot of debate, but in the end we often get our way :) [18:14] Might take up to 3 years though [18:14] :) [18:14] how do you design a spec? [18:14] do you test your designs as you go? [18:15] or do you resort to heuristics, HIGs, and standard behavior? [18:15] large redesigns we research and test before starting implementation [18:15] smaller changes we rely on heuristics and available patterns [18:16] Example of a big one is the redesign of the content creation form [18:16] Research: groups.drupal.org/node/214898 [18:16] Design: https://groups.drupal.org/node/217434 [18:18] We usability tested a prototype of that, can't find the link [18:18] very thorough [18:18] what kind of prototype? [18:18] Then we brought that as a 'spec' into the issue queue https://drupal.org/node/1510532 [18:18] and how was the prototype tested? [18:19] (how many people, how did you select them, ...?) [18:19] yeah, this is thorough, takes a lot of work. We can't always do it like that [18:20] Here's an example usability test script: https://groups.drupal.org/node/258893 [18:20] 5 to 12 participants, recruitment via-via, social media [18:21] In person usability tests are often organised when there is a conference or a camp [18:21] We had one which was done at google and we live-streamed the sessions. Up to 100 people viewing those. [18:22] Which was great because directly observing people going through the struggle is the best way to make developers feel the pain users go through [18:22] definitely :) [18:22] So, how does it work for you? [18:22] design process [18:23] we start with a topic, make a whiteboard for it [18:24] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Default_Template [18:24] there are 5 phases for a whiteboard [18:25] Ah yes, I see [18:25] first, there's analysis, which can be done just by the person creating the whiteboard for certain topics [18:25] * yoroy is afk for a bit, bringing kids to bed :) [18:26] it's usually just defining the problem, its scope, finding the related resources and bugs, and the relevant art [18:27] sorry, meant to link to https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Whiteboard_Template [18:43] looks good [18:44] We can only artificially time-box things [18:44] During actual development, new people get to see the designs and we often have to rehash lots of the previous parts of the process [18:45] as in, you have to tweak the process, or just tweak what you've designed so far? [18:49] yoroy: still there? [18:49] tweak the design or provide the rationale again. [18:50] the issue queue (bug tracker) is not a useful environment for design, so we do that elsewhere [18:50] but many developers only follow the queue so they miss the first part of the process [18:50] yeah, that's similar to us [18:50] whiteboards are pretty easy for devs to follow, though, so I don't think that's an issue for us [18:51] I think that the elementary team does design on the bug tracker, though [18:52] they use launchpad, which is somewhat suited for the task [18:53] (I really dislike bugzilla and wish we used launchpad as well) [18:56] elementary team? [18:56] http://elementaryos.org/ [18:56] it's a group of volunteers who are making their own OS based on Ubuntu [18:57] they're very passionate about design, and what they've built is quite impressive [18:57] Aaah, right, I have heard about this. [18:57] One of the keynote speakers mentioned this project last week [18:58] what did he say about it? [19:00] That it's a design driven project :) [19:00] it is :) [19:01] https://prague2013.drupal.org/keynote/aral-balkan [19:02] thanks, I'll watch it later [19:02] I watched the "A Happy Grain of Sand" talk by this guy [19:02] had no clue he was involved in Drupal [19:03] He isn't :) [19:03] oh, ok [19:03] Keynote speakers are always outside experts. For the other perspective [19:04] prometheus seems intriguing [19:04] So what's your position? Are you a lead designer for libreoffice? [19:04] :) it's quite funny, actually [19:05] there is very little hierarchy inside libreoffice [19:05] it's a meritocracy [19:06] theoretically, I guess I'm one of the main designers, just based on my involvement [19:07] but anyone who volunteers is basically on an equal footing [19:08] right [19:08] same here [19:08] at the end of the day, it's basically the devs' call [19:09] if they listen to us, and let us commit things :) [19:09] how many people can actually commit new code to the software? [19:09] anyone can commit, but new contributors need approval [19:10] I myself don't have commit rights [19:10] really? [19:10] but it's not something that would bother me [19:10] that's different [19:10] we used to have only 2 committers for each version [19:10] and if I wanted them, I'm relatively certain I'd be given those rights [19:10] for Drupal 8 it has become 4 persons [19:10] just to be clear: [19:11] anyone can submit a patch [19:11] not everyone has commit rights [19:11] but frequent patchers can get commit rights, I think, relatively easily [19:11] Right, anyone can provide patches. [19:12] LibreOffice in general, though, is a multiparty project [19:12] For each version of Drupal, the project lead Dries invites one other person to be his co-committer for that version [19:12] ah ok [19:12] there's Red Hat, Collabora, CloudOn, Lanedo, Canonical, volunteers, ... (I'm sure I'm missing some parties, but oh well) [19:13] the project is very open to contributions [19:13] and most patches go through [19:14] So all these orgs are member of the Document Foundation? [19:14] I can look this up of course :) [19:15] I have no clue if organisations can be members... [19:15] Within Drupal it's primarily individual contributions, only very little through companies [19:17] ok [19:17] the individuals are using drupal in some way, though, right? [19:18] the motivation being fixing something for themselves and contributing it back? [19:18] yep [19:20] in general, I'd love to have more UX conscious devs in LibreOffice, and in open [19:20] source in general [19:20] (accidentally hit enter there) [19:20] I'd love to see floss projects ask for money [19:21] really dismayed with the response elementary's been getting with their pay-what-you-want model [19:21] Yeah, it's getting more and more important to go beyond feature lists and focus more on providing the right thing at the right time [19:22] yup, making drupal development sustainable is an ongoing discussion as well [19:24] what really frustrates me is that e.g. Ubuntu Software center allows you to pay only for software that's not in the repositories [19:24] so you can pay mostly just for proprietary software there [19:25] hmm yeah. It's all about providing additional services [19:25] support, training, … [19:25] many projects build their business model on that, but it seems wrong to me [19:25] because, in addition to development, you have to do this extra stuff to make money [19:26] while proprietary software just makes money from the app [19:26] I'd love to see open-source apps actually ask for money [19:27] not as a "donation", but as "set your price", because the app is worth it [19:28] I talked to one of the Gnome designers [19:29] and he floated the idea of building a flattr donation model into their Software app [19:30] so, basically, at the end of a month, a set amount of money would go to the software that you have installed [19:30] right [19:30] It hasn't really worked for Drupal module developers yet (module = plugin) [19:31] what does their business model tend to be? [19:32] basically there is none that directly supports development and maintenance of their work [19:32] We just got started on https://www.gittip.com/for/drupal/ [19:33] Mostly it's people working at Drupal shops who get some time to contribute [19:35] As for Drupal being used to make money with, you can build websites with it and get paid for that :) [19:36] perhaps you could integrate "tips" into the drupal modules website? [19:36] to make the experience a bit more seamless? [19:37] or even allow a person to link his drupal account to flattr so that it would automatically tip all the open-source modules he has installed every month [19:38] yes, that stuff happens already. Numbers are still very small though [19:38] by "drupal account", I guess I mean the admin account on his site [19:38] where does that happen? [19:39] (I'm probably just looking at the wrong modules, but I haven't seen a tip button or anything similar) [19:40] yeah, that's only some people adding a link there. It's not something that's part of the drupal.org infrastructure [19:40] maybe it should be, then? :) [19:41] that usueally gets shot down on principal grounds [19:42] drupal.org not to be used as a platform for monetization etc… [19:42] :( that's too bad [19:42] I'd love to see more monetization opportunities for floss devs [19:47] we'll get there :) [19:47] I hope so :) [19:48] It was nice talking to you! [19:48] nice talking to you too :) [19:48] and if you have any tips or lessons or encounter some cool stuff as you go, I'd love to hear about it [19:49] either on the IRC or on our design mailing list [19:49] (you know about the list, right?) [19:51] yes, I'm on the list [19:53] ok; feel free to send pointers, resources, and invitations :) [19:57] we'll keep in touch :) [19:57] great :)