Design/Meetings/2014-02-23

Attendees

 * mirek
 * astron
 * Llyaudet

Topics

 * Tango Testing icons
 * Sifr icons
 * Writer/Table options

Log
[11:18] hi. sorry for being late [11:18] I came as late as you did :) [11:18] (a minute ago) [11:18] oh... [11:18] ok [11:19] any topics we'd like to get done today? [11:19] so... there was something on the call about icons [11:19] björn would love a lighter version of sifr [11:20] (for people using dark themes) [11:20]  hi all [11:20] who do we go to with that? [11:20] hi [11:20] ahmad [11:20] I'm all for Sifr light [11:20] ok [11:20] we should use it instead of the HC theme we have [11:21] also, a hidpi (pixel-doubled) version would imho be good [11:21] (that one is terrible) [11:21] mirek2: the thing is, i dont know if sifr really works as an accessbile theme [11:21] astron: I suppose [11:21] astron: what do you mean? [11:22] imho, the icons are much clearer than the HC icons [11:23] well, i am just not sure (fine lines? etc.) [11:23] doesn't SIFR have thicker lines than the current HC theme? [11:23] i would like to ask someone who has an accessibility background first [11:24] definitely [11:24] so, i would open a bug about that... ok? [11:24] sure, go ahead [11:26] also, do we still need tango_testing now that almost all the icons are on tango? [11:26] (tango_testing as a theme, not as a repository) [11:26] I don't think we do [11:26] ok [11:28] I still plan to push the icons [11:29] good... [11:30] also, if youre interested in creating (as non-controversial as possible) design easy hacks... that would be great [11:30] like string changes, or missing tooltips etc. [11:31] I've been really busy lately [11:31] but will do if I have the time [11:32] btw, as for string changes: wouldn't it be easier to just make the changes? [11:33] depends [11:33] but generally, yes. [11:35] anything else? [11:35] perhaps we can look at options again? [11:36]  ok [11:38] ok, then... [11:39] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Options/Writer#Table [11:40] Repeat on each page [11:40] this seems like a style setting rather than a global setting [11:41] it also sets the default for tables, but yes, it is a style settign [11:41] and it's set when inserting a table [11:42]  It is an option and it is also in Table menu right now [11:42] so, given our decision for "Heading", I would say this is advanced as well [11:42] agreed? [11:43]  agree [11:43] wait... let me check [11:44] i dont really know about making this advanced. this seems like a genuinely useful setting [11:45] of course, you can also set it when creating a table, but i would bet that it saves a lot of people from that trouble each time they insert a table [11:45] but it's set when creating a table [11:45] as i said, in the options, it's permanent [11:45] Perhaps we should remember the last choice, then, as proposed with Heading as well? [11:45] right. that would make sense [11:46]  yes [11:46] ok [11:46] "Do not split (not in HTML)" [11:46] the same? [11:48] yep [11:48] and the same with Border, I assume? [11:49]  yes [11:49] would be great to have table styles for these kinds of things... [11:49] right [11:50] Number recognition [11:51] is there any way to get the same functionality without the Options dialog? [11:53] well, libo could always ask, if you want to treat this number like a date/time/... [11:53] (e.g. see ms office's smarttags) [11:53]  It doesn't seem so. There is number format in table menu but it only appplies to the cells [11:53]  *selected cells [11:54] that's too bad [11:55] hm... could quickly go back to the previous four options... [11:55] sure [11:55] i think lots of people dojn't even know the "insert table" dialogue exists, because they are creating tables from the toolbar [11:56] personally, see it rather seldomly, because i always use the little arrow next to the icon [11:56] true [11:56] so these people wouldnt really get the chance to set these options (or see that these options are set) [11:57] ^dojn't^don't [11:57] not sure if those same people care about repeating headers or not ... just wanted to bring it up [11:58] I feel like Table styles would be the ideal solution [11:58] especially given that not all tables are alike [11:59] e.g. "Heading" is very table-specific [11:59]  I agree [11:59] right... [12:00] I feel like the discoverability of these properties is another matter to setting the defaults under options [12:01] ..? [12:01] what does that mean? [12:01] I mean that finding where to set these properties (e.g. under Insert > Table) is one thing [12:01] and setting the defaults in Options is another [12:02] right [12:02] so the solution isn't to make these things more visible in Options, but to make the per-table properties more discoverable [12:04] it'd be good to at least bring some table properties to the Properties panel [12:04] (the sidebar panel) [12:04] ok right. please add that to the description in the wiki page too [12:04] will do [12:07] anyway, back to number recognition [12:07] it seems that it's not a table property... [12:08] so, as much as it pains me to say it, perhaps it should be generic? [12:08]  In the current state, I think so [12:10] astron, what do you think? [12:10] right, keep it generic [12:10] ok [12:11] Number format recognition [12:11] not sure I understand what this does... [12:12] important to note: Number format recognition and Alignment are both tied to Number recognition [12:12] i can see that. [12:13] Help: If Number format recognition is not marked, only input in the format that has been set at the cell is accepted. Any other input resets the format to Text. [12:14] right... that is in the wiki already [12:15] i would think, this refers to locally different number formats etc.? [12:16] eg, your local date format actually is 12/23/2004, but libreoffice, with this option would also recognise 23/12/2004 [12:16] or so?? [12:17] I understood it this way: [12:17] if the option is not marked, when you mark a cell with e.g. the Date format, it only recognizes dates [12:17] and any other numbers are treated as text [12:17] or that [12:18] if it is marked, I guess it might try to make out what kind of number was input [12:18] not sure how to tell, though... [12:18] ok. [12:19] could you create some category like "ask a developer"? [12:19] actually, that guess might be wrong [12:19] sure :) [12:20] maybe not a category, but jsut add some extra rtext [12:20] ^rtext^text [12:20] I think a category's fine [12:21] "Alignment" should be renamed [12:21] perhaps to something like "Align numbers separately", or something like that... [12:22] and I guess I'd mark it as Generic as well [12:23] right [12:23] agreed? [12:23] actually, the last three items, i noticed were cell formats [12:23] so... that may be another case for the sidebar..? [12:24] the difference is whether it makes sense to set these things per cell [12:24] e.g. alignment seems like it should be set at least per table [12:25] per column, probably, but yes [12:25] can number alignment be set per cell? [12:26] also, what exactly do you propose? to have the settings be advanced, and remember the last cell setting? [12:30] so, my proposal is entirely theoretical right now... since the sidebar does not yet seem to have any table or cell properties [12:31] in any case: table and cell properties could be displayed at the same time in the sidebar [12:31] so, you could select multiple cells or even the entire table and select a fitting cellalignment mode [12:31] ^cellalignment^cell alignment [12:32] and yes, you could also store the setting from the last usage and make the option advanced too [12:33]  I must go see you :) [12:34] hm... [12:34] so should I mark it as advanced and note that? [12:34] or generic for now? [12:35] generic + a long note? [12:35] ok [12:37] moving on... [12:37] Move cells [12:38] i would mark that as advanced [12:38] just given the nature of the feature [12:39] i guess... [12:40] insert cells the same? [12:40] is it relevant for accessibility? [12:41] (i dont even know how to enable these functions, so it must be soem arcane accessibility key combination) [12:41] it seems alt+arrow key moves the cells [12:41] ^soem^some [12:41] not moves, but increases the size of [12:41] ahh... [12:41] not sure if that's it, but I suppose it is [12:41] "move" is weird word anyway here... is it actually correct? [12:43] it doesn't seem so... [12:43] this sounds as if, originally the function was called "move cell border" which then got shortened to "move cell" [12:43] sounds like it, yes [12:43] ill file a bug about this... [12:43] should it be in the ux-advise component? [12:43] on the other hand, it does move rows/columns... [12:44] that depends whether you want more designer feedback [12:45] in how far does it move things? it increases/decreases the size of cells [12:46] it moves rows/columns [12:46] it doesn't increase the size of just the single cell, but also the rows or columns it's in [12:48] right ...but thats not really moving [12:48] right [12:49] for moving, id expect rows/columns to swap palces [12:49] ^palces^places [12:49] true [12:51] anyway, advanced? [12:51] yes [12:52] same with insertion? [12:52] yes [12:52] (not sure how to insert with the keyboard, though) [12:52] hm [12:52] it would be nice if the help explained it [12:53] yup [12:54] ok. [12:54] Behavior of rows/columns [12:55] is that available in table settings? [12:55] seems to be [12:55] you misunderstood me... i meant the insert table dialogue. [12:55] there, it is not available. [12:56] no, it's not [12:56] but it seems to be under "Table Properties" > "Columns" > "Adapt table width" + "Adjust columns proportionally" [12:56] so, i guess => generic [12:56] (at least I think that's the same thing) [12:56] how about having it in the sidebar? [12:56] right. might be [12:56] ok [12:57] and advanced? [12:57] ok [12:58] should we stop here? [12:58] ok, sure [12:58] any other topics? [12:59] not really [12:59] ok, then. [12:59] not sure I'll be able to make it to the chat next week [12:59] right. [12:59] should I cancel it, then? [13:00] ill upload the log again (sorry for not doing it the whole of last week, but it will be immediate now) [13:00] mirek2: you could. [13:00] not sure i will be there either [13:00] ok :) [13:00] see you later, then [13:01] see you