Design/Meetings/2013-04-13

Attendees

 * issa
 * npcdoom
 * astron

Topics

 * Handling of Branding Issues
 * Template Manager

Log
[16:11] hi issa [16:11] hi [16:12] shall we wait for some more time? [16:14] I doubt anyone else is coming, but sure [16:16] okay, well, then lets start ... [16:16] ok [16:16] esc update? [16:17] I don't keep track of these, but for sake of documentation maybe? [16:18] so most of the time, i discussed about michels interesting posts http://mr-consultant.net/blog/2013/04/thoughts-about-design-process-part-1-the-context/ [16:18] etc. – what may be true/what is not [16:19] aha [16:19] I haven't read it all but I agree regarding branding and deadlines [16:20] but i guess to discuss how to address some of the issues that indeed exist, wed need more people here [16:20] true [16:20] for the solutions he named, i think most of that won't help us very much (because it relies on community members we dont have – i.e. all the professional ux'ers and paid artists) [16:23] exactly [16:23] we only have tdf developers [16:23] and its all very unmeritocratic [16:23] but maybe we could appoint some people that have the final say regarding branding etc? [16:24] that would indeed be possible – in the past, though, that was ultimately the participants of this chat [16:24] (past two times – before, it was christoph and bernhard mainly) [16:25] so, the issue i guess is more how to cooperate with marketing [16:26] just to be clear, did anyone approve of the lo4 website? [16:27] thats hard to say – it was none of us, but the website people certainly approved, and i think marketing may have thought about it too [16:28] that makes it beyond design, someone should have the final say in branding as a whole [16:28] so, yes, in that vein, you are certainly right, we may need some sort of branding committee [16:29] then we have the deadlines [16:29] which is definitely an issue [16:30] it doesn't matter with minor stuff, but to have the 4.0 branding after 4.0 is released was very bad [16:31] right. it was a pretty big (insert expletive) ... [16:32] the problem I assume that it was relatively easy to implement [16:32] how do you mean that? [16:33] I would guess it wasn't that hard to implement it compared to other design related modules [16:33] oh, you mean we started late, because it was so easy? [16:33] right, that was a part of it, but the bigger problem were the relations between marketing and us again [16:33] no this isn't what I meant [16:34] I meant that even though it was easy we got delayed [16:34] I'd understand getting delayed on the harder UI edits, but this for the most part was just replacing images and colors [16:35] so I guess that's all the same problem again with branding [16:37] well, tbh, at the time we got the deadline by which we worked, i did not think that we should make new branding any more for 4.0 [16:38] agreed [16:38] (i mean, leaving the 3.6 branding would have seemed like the better compromise to me at that point – even if indeed a 4.0 should have a new branding) [16:39] yes I got it :) [16:40] so I guess we should pair the branding commtttee with the esc [16:41] pair it? [16:42] i absolutely agree that we need more reasonable deadlines for branding stuff – and michels 3 months sounds fine to me [16:42] a subset from esc, someone from design and another from marketing and another from the website [16:42] ah, no, youre mixing the esc up with the board [16:43] oh ok esc is just for development? [16:43] esc is ~just developers, one of us, one from qa [16:43] yes [16:43] oh I see [16:43] then the board it is [16:43] do we have anyone of us there? kendy? [16:43] kendy is a developer most of the time, [16:43] mirek is on the board [16:45] (but kendy is on the board too) [16:46] hm, no … apparently neither is... [16:47] oh, sorry ... i was confused about esc and board [16:47] no problem [16:47] I guess then we need someone to be there [16:48] i just looked at it again – so mirek is formally on the esc [16:48] (but i join the calls since i have more time) [16:50] or since no one from designing is there maybe someone from marketing should have the final say in branding [16:50] he will have to deal with both the design team and website team [16:51] hi npcdoom [16:51] hi rafael [16:51] hiii [16:52] all [16:52] how you all doing? [16:52] i guess its better if someone from all three teams is present and they are on equal footing [16:52] were doing good... [16:52] great [16:53] log until now: http://piratenpad.de/FEX84jeROG [16:53] obviously that would be better if it's possible [16:55] (incidentally, if we wanted to do a branding refresh, now would be a good time since we have around five weeks to feature freeze) [16:57] why would we do that? [16:57] i am not sure – but it might be good to ask before the question pops up later [16:58] (i am fine for now with the branding, even if it still is too green for my taste) [16:58] well green is libo's color [16:59] sure, but it looks a bit out of place on most os's to have this much of it [16:59] (I had a little problem with it not being our palette's green, but then realized it's better than our bright green) [16:59] but its no use arguing about that now [16:59] true [17:01] ok, so ill put two questions on the list: some sort of branding committee and the question if we need new branding for 4.1. good? [17:01] yes [17:01] then lets close this [17:02] ok, rafael, i assume you didnt come here for nothing..? [17:02] (personally I wouldn't mention the 4.1 branding so that it would be too late by the time someone asks about it :p) [17:02] nah, that only gave trouble the last time. and if we can say that a few important people said we dont have to do it, then we can always refer to that later on [17:03] sure [17:05] npcdoom, did you come here to discuss the template manager? [17:05] im auto joined here xD [17:05] but i guess we can [17:06] ah, ok [17:06] i didnt know that. [17:08] is it on the table to consider adding back again the all tab? [17:08] hm, not sure. [17:08] i personally wouldnt [17:08] (id rather add a tab for blank pages) [17:10] what would be your reason? [17:10] well sometimes you need to display it all as it is [17:11] we wont need to display empty folders on other tabs [17:11] having the problem of the user deleting it thinking it dosent have anything but it does, just not of that type [17:11] right, the empty folders are a bit ugly [17:11] so [17:12] and that will also let me erase folders automatic when they close the manager if its really empty [17:12] and yeah i hate those empty blocks xD [17:13] about the blank items, cedrics idea was to display them like at the start of every folder [17:13] so, for now, i think nothing stands in the way of just hiding a folder if it contains no object of the type [17:13] but i think your idea is better, having them on a separate tab [17:13] yes [17:13] how you delete it? [17:13] or access to it? [17:14] via one of the other tabs [17:14] like for example to save [17:14] ah, well save is a different case [17:14] but its all together [17:14] in that case they need to be visible [17:15] when saving, i think we should 1 show all folders (regardless of files in them) 2 show files of a matching type with the one we want to save [17:16] does that make sense? [17:17] yes [17:17] well [17:17] and what about when you want to import to a new folder? [17:17] you create a new folder, but it will get hided since we dont show it [17:17] that is indeed tricky. [17:18] what was the reason to remove the all tab? [17:20] i havent got it right here but the reason was along the lines of: [17:20] where #3 seems to prove false now [17:21] and also gotta remember the remote repositories [17:22] do we know the type there before opening the folder? [17:22] (type = type of template) [17:22] nope [17:22] remote repositories are like a file viewer [17:23] and we can have nested folders too [17:24] ah, so you think getting even a complete list of files from remote is impossible [17:24] its possible [17:24] but too slow [17:24] yeah [17:25] probably will just fetch it as you browse it [17:26] actually, is there some open remote repo to try? [17:26] (ive never actually looked at this) [17:27] you will have to set your own one [17:27] but atm you can only view the root folder [17:27] you mean set it up on localhost? [17:27] yeah [17:27] thats a bit demotivating [17:28] xD [17:28] unless you can connect to a cmis capable server [17:28] i can search for one [17:28] and tell you later [17:29] how do i know if i can? (the cmis option is shown in my build) [17:30] to do what? browse remote repositories? [17:30] if i can use cmis [17:30] is on by default [17:30] ok. [17:31] http://www.openwga.com/blog/html/default/ff8080812baf8cbb012bafc1f0b9029d.int.html [17:31] sound good? [17:33] yes [17:33] it should work [17:35] hm, didnt get it to work, but found a nuxeo demo server [17:36] and now it takes a while... [17:36] hm, seems libo is frozen [17:38] ok. can you give me a hint what i should have entered under "path"? [17:42] ok, nothing it seems [17:44] npcdoom, it seems that libo currently doesnt even know what is a folder and what isnt... is that true? [17:44] not sure, i havent played much with that [17:45] why you ask? [17:45] because i dont see empty rectangles/icons [17:46] in the template manager? [17:46] sorry kinda lost here [17:46] https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/87946285/libreoffice/screen-nuxeo-libo.png [17:47] yes [17:48] i see [17:48] can you give me that cmis link u used? [17:48] i havent touched that part at all [17:48] http://doc.nuxeo.com/display/NXDOC/CMIS+for+Nuxeo#CMISforNuxeo-Onlinedemo [17:48] (i used the SOAP WSDL link) [18:11] back to the issue withempty folders... [18:11] issa, do you have any opinion? [18:12] let me catch up [18:16] I'm not sure what issue are we talking about it, the empty rectangles? [18:16] (I haven't been keeping track of template manager discussions, so feel free to move on) [18:16] rectangles =folders [18:18] what about them? [18:20] well, the issue is that they look a bit odd when they are empty [18:20] yeah I assumed it was a bug [18:20] were they designed this way? [18:22] yes [18:22] oh [18:22] what are you proposing to replace them? template/folder icons? [18:24] no, we were discussing whether to hide them when they are empty [18:25] why seems isnt feasible after all... [18:25] (they can show up as empty when you only have spreadsheets in them but are on the text docs tab) [18:25] which again is a bit ugly [18:27] they need to have icons as long as they are shown [18:28] if by hiding you mean hiding the whole item (icon + text) it seems ok [18:29] yes, thats the idea [18:30] but it's not feasible? [18:31] well, the problem is that you cant save into a folder that isnt shown etc [18:31] oh [18:31] I guess then we have to have it show and give it an "empty" icon [18:31] right [18:35] so an empty icon its then [18:36] yes, lets see if we can pretty the folder icons up [18:38] another thing, you mentioned to make the dialog modal [18:38] but in gnome3 modal dialogs dont have close button [18:40] so we need to add a way to close it, we could add the close button, or add a close menu in the gear icon (thats how nautilus does it) [18:40] or anything else [18:40] xD [18:41] well, the close item in the gear menu is pretty complicated [18:43] so, for saving we probably do need a cancel button in the toolbar [18:43] well in the other one it will have the close button [18:43] but yeah [18:43] what other one? [18:43] non gnome3 [18:43] its mostly a gnome3 issue [18:44] right [18:45] ok. im not sure i follow: [18:46] better have it [18:46] a cancel, save one? and a choose, close one? [18:46] in the save dialogue or both? [18:46] both [18:47] its the same dialog [18:47] i mean in the template manager [18:48] cant you have it one, but not the other? [18:48] you can [18:48] then why not? [18:49] well we still need a way to close the dialog if its modal on gnome3 [18:50] but the template manager doesnt need to be modal... [18:50] ...only the save dialogue [18:50] thats not possible xD [18:50] is there no way to separate that without duplicating the whole code? [18:51] :/ [18:51] ummmm ill have to see [18:54] i just checked and i think its possible [18:58] but now that i think about it, is there a benefit to have 2 dialogs? one for save with just doing save and little browsing? and the other the manager? [18:59] well, ultimately it would be cool to have the same view we have in the template manager also in the open/save dialogues [18:59] but for now, i think it is better to have the template manager and the save dialogue very similar. [19:00] but ultimately cedric/you should decide – i am just a designer [19:04] sorry if i am confusing (just ask) [19:16] and what about styles? [19:16] have you thought about that? [19:16] a bit, but i havent created a mockup yet [19:16] sorry. [19:17] btw, how dou feel about increasing the maximum height of thumbnails to 96px? [19:18] its fine by me [19:18] just a little bigger than it is now [19:18] is there a simple way to do that? [19:19] (i have made replacement icons in case we have no thumbnail (remote, broken files) and they are 96 px) [19:20] yes it shouldnt be no problem [19:20] but currently it looks a little broken, because there are only ~two px at the top of those icons [19:20] but are those the same you made a patch before? [19:20] well, i have to amend the patch [19:20] now [19:20] (icons are done, but havent gotten to it) [19:21] ok [19:22] also, i feel that the selection background is a bit heavy – is there a way to add some alpha channel to that? [19:22] ill have to ask cedric about that [19:22] (ie use the native colour, but increase transparency) [19:24] also, can you explain me the bug you told me about opening a template after setting it as default? i cant seem to reproduce it [19:25] well, it is really simple – but maybe i "build wrong" [19:26] but 1 open template dialogue 2 go to presentation tab 3 go into presentation backgrounds 4 set one of them as default (i tried abstract red) 5 close template manager 6 open impress [19:28] i havent tried reproducing on windows though [19:28] sorry [19:28] (that way i would have had an "official" build) [19:30] still nothing xD [19:30] i would have to try it on windows [19:32] i will report it as a bug – maybe someone else can reproduce it [19:43] ok. shall we close the (official part of the) chat then? [19:43] so for save as, i should add a save button and make it modal? [19:43] yes atm nothing new to add [19:44] "add a cancel button" you mean? [19:46] cant remember the one you told me =P [19:51] well there is already a save button [19:54] but it looks misplaced or its just me? [19:55] you mean it should be at the bottom? [19:55] yeah [19:55] like the other save dialogs [19:56] hm... i agree ... but i didnt make the design initially – so not sure... [19:58] ill talk to mirek [19:58] (when he's back) [20:33] got to go [20:34] (sorry I was too absent minded today) [20:34] bye, enjoy your weekend [20:43] npcdoom: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=63513 ^ reported [20:54] bye!
 * its one more tab (=more ui)
 * it will have much more content on it, so be more confusing
 * there is nothing that isnt there otherwise
 * we probably need cancel button in the save-as-templ dialogue
 * we probably dont want it in the template-man
 * crash*