Design/Meetings/2012-08-11

Attendees

 * alexanderW
 * Mirek2
 * Manas

Topics

 * Options dialog
 * Font embedding

Log
[18:01] <@mirek2> hi [18:01]  hi [18:01] <@mirek2> how have you been? [18:01]  Good, enjoying the sun [18:02]  And you? [18:02]  And I started translating some German comments in /starmath and /filter :) [18:02] <@mirek2> pretty good [18:02] <@mirek2> good, happy to hear that :) [18:04] <@mirek2> I suppose astron handled this week's irc chat? [18:04] <@mirek2> not irc chat, esc call, sorry [18:04]  yes [18:05] <@mirek2> ok [18:05]  did you read the minutes of ESC call? [18:05] <@mirek2> not yet [18:05] <@mirek2> I feel it's always better to get briefed by someone who attended the call [18:05] <@mirek2> it's more informative [18:06]  an overview of the UI stuff: * UI / design update (Astron) [18:06]         + discussion about updated icons for gallery [18:06]         + ongoing options discussion [18:06]         + official git repo for artwork ? [18:06]                 + should we re-use the old repository ? (no) [18:06]         + ongoing discussion around artwork licensing [18:06]         + new 'templates' repository created [18:06]                 + can we push templates there ? [18:06]                 + 70 new templates up-loaded to the wiki page [18:06]                   https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Call_for_Templates [18:06] <alexanderW>                + need CC0 / authenticity statements & push those to git. [18:06] <alexanderW>        + intends to package Astron & Alexander's templates first (Bjoern) [18:06] <alexanderW>                + and do a package release [18:06] <alexanderW>                + packagers who want sexy new templates take note ... [18:06] <alexanderW>                + need some macro sanity checking [18:06] <alexanderW>        + Astron / Alexander to provide editorial feedback & improvement [18:06] <alexanderW>          encouragement [18:06] <alexanderW>        + Toolbar fixing status - on Kendy's todo. [18:06] <alexanderW>        + Bjoern created some Design easy-hacks [18:06] <alexanderW>                + https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/Easy_Hacks_by_required_Skill#Easy_Hacks_requiring_Design_Skills [18:07] <@mirek2> yes, I was looking at it [18:07] <@mirek2> shocked about the new templates on https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Call_for_Templates [18:08] <alexanderW> Smae here [18:08] <@mirek2> some are just bizarre [18:08] <alexanderW> *note [18:08] <alexanderW> *quality [18:09] <alexanderW> on Webupd8 there was someone wishing for such a contest and he was surprised that we ran one [18:09] <@mirek2> I could understand the use case for "whiteboard", but white sphere or outer space? [18:10] <@mirek2> well, I'm surprised this was written on the esc minutes: "need CC0 / authenticity statements & push those to git." [18:10] <@mirek2> I don't think we want to use any one of the new ones [18:11] <@mirek2> "Astron / Alexander to provide editorial feedback & improvement encouragement" -- does that mean you'll be reviewing new templates as they come? [18:11] <alexanderW> Apparently [18:11] <alexanderW> Or us three [18:12] <@mirek2> :) thanks for the invite [18:12] <alexanderW> :) [18:13] <@mirek2> have you been clued in on this before the call? [18:13] <alexanderW> no [18:13] <@mirek2> oh, ok [18:14] <@mirek2> because i'm not sure what this would really change [18:14] <alexanderW> a bit unrelated, but to you want to plan to attend the next UDS? [18:15] <@mirek2> Ubuntu Developer Summit? [18:15] <alexanderW> yes [18:15] <@mirek2> no -- is there a reason why I should attend? [18:15] <alexanderW> ah, there was a mail by Matthew paul Thomas [18:16] <@mirek2> oh, was that the typography thing? [18:16] <alexanderW> yes, the proposed session didn't take place [18:16] <alexanderW> so this is the alternative [18:16] <alexanderW> Hello Bjoern [18:16] <alexanderW> Thanks for your interest in the typography workshop. [18:16] <alexanderW> Unfortunately we have had to cancel the workshop because of a lack of [18:16] <alexanderW> interest from other upstream projects. [18:16] <alexanderW> We will send you a copy of the draft typography guidelines once they [18:16] <alexanderW> are ready. [18:17] <alexanderW> We will also run a UI typography session at the Ubuntu Developer [18:17] <alexanderW> Summit in Copenhagen in late October. Perhaps a LibreOffice UI [18:17] <alexanderW> developer or two will be attending UDS? [18:17] <alexanderW> Bjoern Michaelsen wrote on 23/07/12 12:26: [18:17] <alexanderW> > ... - As most of our designers are volunteers: is there a [18:17] <alexanderW> > possiblity for (partial) funding? [18:17] <alexanderW> Canonical offers sponsorship to Ubuntu Developer Summits. [18:17] <alexanderW> <http://www.jonobacon.org/2012/08/01/ubuntu-developer-summit-sponsorship-now-open-4/> [18:17] <alexanderW> > - What topics do you want to discuss? - Playing into this: How [18:17] <alexanderW> > technical will things get? With fonts on productivity suites, one [18:17] <alexanderW> > major concern is interop with MS Office -- for example default [18:17] <alexanderW> > fonts that have different font metrics than those available from MS [18:17] <alexanderW> > Office are a bit tricky. [18:17] <alexanderW> > [18:17] <alexanderW> > ... [18:17] <alexanderW> The guidelines are mainly concerned with typography in the UI itself, [18:17] <alexanderW> rather than inside documents. Where to use different font sizes, [18:17] <alexanderW> headings, bold, small print, spacing and layout, error messages, links [18:17] <alexanderW> from one part of the UI to another, hints, captions, and so on. [18:17] <alexanderW> Cheers [18:17] <alexanderW> - -- [18:17] <alexanderW> mpt [18:18] <@mirek2> oh, ok [18:18] <@mirek2> didn't get that last update [18:18] <@mirek2> hm... I'm probably not going to go [18:19] <alexanderW> I don't know yet whether I will have time, since I'm moving to a university and don't have any timetables yet [18:19] <@mirek2> what are you majoring in? [18:19] <alexanderW> mechatronics [18:20] <alexanderW> are you going to uni, too? [18:20] <@mirek2> yes, though I'm still not sure what to major in [18:20] <alexanderW> ah [18:21] <@mirek2> majoring in math for now, but I plan to leave that as soon as I find something more appropriate [18:21] <@mirek2> mechatronics seems interesting [18:21] <@mirek2> never heard of it until now [18:21] <alexanderW> a mix of mechanics, IT and electronic engineering [18:22] <alexanderW> So I can still learn a bit of programming :) [18:22] <@mirek2> :) good for you [18:22] <alexanderW> Should we wait for Stefan? [18:22] <@mirek2> what career would you like to go into? [18:22] <@mirek2> no, I think we should probably begin :) [18:23] <alexanderW> Not sure yet, maybe automatisation in the industry or prosthetics [18:23] <@mirek2> so... https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Analyses/Global_Options [18:23] <alexanderW> quite a gap [18:23] <@mirek2> ok [18:23] <@mirek2> interesting [18:23] <alexanderW> Where did we stop? [18:24] <@mirek2> let's go to "other user data" first [18:24] <@mirek2> after some thought, I think we should label it "Generic" [18:24] <@mirek2> which is what I feel you and Astron argued for as well [18:24] <@mirek2> agree? [18:24] <alexanderW> Yes [18:25] <alexanderW> So how would we display these textboxes? [18:25] <alexanderW> The way we do now? [18:25] <@mirek2> that's for later -- once we have a whiteboard [18:25] <alexanderW> Maybe we could add a note like: Generic (hidden) [18:25] <alexanderW> alright [18:26] <@mirek2> view [18:26] <@mirek2> scaling [18:26] <alexanderW> advanced? [18:26] <@mirek2> given that there are people using this feature, then Advanced, I suppose [18:27] <alexanderW> Should I edit? [18:27] <@mirek2> if you'd like [18:27] <@mirek2> or I can [18:27] <@mirek2> go ahead [18:27] <@mirek2> Icon size and style [18:28] <@mirek2> I think this should be split up into "icon size" and "icon style" [18:28] <alexanderW> Probably [18:29] <alexanderW> Could we detect whether high contrast is enabled on linux? [18:29] <alexanderW> and maybe do the icon choice automatically [18:29] <@mirek2> I know that the HC theme is used whenever a dark theme is used on linux [18:30] <alexanderW> so there is some functionality like this [18:30] <alexanderW> even if it's apparently broken [18:30] <@mirek2> really? [18:30] <@mirek2> how do you figure? [18:30] <alexanderW> well, if it automatically changes the icons [18:31] <@mirek2> what do you mean? isn't that a good thing? [18:32] <alexanderW> Yes, but why would one want the HC icons only because one's using a dark theme? [18:32] <@mirek2> the normal icons aren't visible enough, I guess [18:32] <@mirek2> I'm not really sure how it's implemented, though [18:33] <@mirek2> in any case, I guess I would label both icon size and icon theme as advanced [18:34] <alexanderW> wow, me edits are a massacre [18:34] <@mirek2> what do you mean? [18:35] <alexanderW> editing the wiki table [18:35] <@mirek2> massacre? [18:35] <alexanderW> ah, it was an supüerfluous blank [18:36] <alexanderW> one table looked pretty messed up [18:36] <@mirek2> oh, ok [18:36] <alexanderW> Now I get it [18:36] <@mirek2> anyway, what do you think about the icon set/theme? [18:37] <alexanderW> I think theme shouldn't be advanced [18:37] <@mirek2> really? I think theme is more advanced than size [18:37] <alexanderW> size should rather be an advanced option [18:38] <alexanderW> Well, aren't the icons as big as on the rest of the desktop? [18:38] <@mirek2> I think in generic options, we want only the options the user seriously needs to use the software [18:39] <alexanderW> then probably both advanced [18:39] <@mirek2> well, Windows and Mac users are used to both big and small icons [18:39] <@mirek2> but yes, I agree with having both advanced [18:40] <@mirek2> (btw, you don't have to save as we go -- you can just edit the wiki and save when we're done) [18:40] <@mirek2> "Use system font for user interface" [18:41] <alexanderW> I tried to understand the syntax and the preview doesn't work [18:41] <alexanderW> now I should be abe to edit it correctly [18:41] <@mirek2> ok [18:41] <alexanderW> I think that's advanced, too [18:41] <@mirek2> I can't think of a scenario where this option would be useful [18:42] <alexanderW> Who doesn't want consistency? [18:42] <@mirek2> exactly [18:42] <@mirek2> it's on https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Whiteboards/KillOptions [18:42] <@mirek2> astron's made-up use-case: "LibreOffice uses a system font incompatible with the current locale. A Chinese American uses English OS in conjunction with Chinese Libreoffice and a non-CJK-supporting font. (Please note, this use case is completely made up and I haven't checked if this could actually help here.)" [18:43] <alexanderW> Hm, but the OS distributors should ship with fonts that can be used in most languages [18:43] <@mirek2> right [18:44] == Manas [75f2bd8f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.117.242.189.143] has joined #libreoffice-design [18:44] <@mirek2> I don't think it's a very plausible scenario [18:44] <alexanderW> font antialiasing [18:44] <alexanderW> Hi [18:44] <@mirek2> hello [18:44] <Manas> hi [18:44] <alexanderW> IIRC it can cause slow-downs [18:45] <alexanderW> ah, no it was the hardware acceleration [18:45] <@mirek2> as astron mentions, "Currently, the replacement font can't be chosen which makes the option rather less useful." [18:45] <alexanderW> enable it by default and make it advanced? [18:45] <@mirek2> I think we should let go of the option [18:45] <alexanderW> then it's a no-brainer [18:45] <alexanderW> completely? [18:45] <@mirek2> yes [18:45] <@mirek2> afaik, no other software has this feature [18:45] <@mirek2> and if there was a chinese american like in the above scenario [18:46] <alexanderW> bad luck [18:46] <@mirek2> I doubt he'd be content with no applications except libreoffice working for him, if the default font was really a problem [18:47] <@mirek2> would you agree with "Unnecessary" then? [18:47] <alexanderW> yes [18:47] <alexanderW> font antialiasing [18:48] <alexanderW> default to yes and make it advanced? [18:48] <@mirek2> I suppose [18:48] <@mirek2> again, I fail to see the use in this [18:48] <alexanderW> in what? [18:48] <@mirek2> in the option [18:48] <@mirek2> I wonder whether if it wasn't previously used to adress an issue that's no longer present in Linux [18:49] <alexanderW> disabling it could be useful on old PCs [18:49] <alexanderW> what issue? [18:49] <@mirek2> wouldn't there be an OS-wide setting then? [18:50] <@mirek2> given that this is Linux-only, I'm thinking it's related to an antialiasing issue in Linux [18:50] <@mirek2> otherwise, if it was there so it could be useful on old PCs, why wouldn't it be available for Windows? [18:50] <@mirek2> at least [18:50] <@mirek2> the majority of old PCs run windows [18:51] <alexanderW> I didn't know it wasn't available on Windows [18:51] <alexanderW> We should ask a dev whether there's still an issue [18:51] <@mirek2> yes [18:51] <alexanderW> if not, get rid of it [18:51] <@mirek2> I agree [18:51] <@mirek2> astron wrote "If it can't currently be taken from the OS, this would have to be implemented. I believe this this is already possible, though." [18:51] <alexanderW> I'll jot this down [18:51] <@mirek2> on https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Whiteboards/KillOptions [18:51] <alexanderW> aha [18:52] <alexanderW> icons in menus [18:52] <@mirek2> I would get rid of this option [18:53] <@mirek2> this should be based on the OS behavior [18:53] <alexanderW> are there usually icons on windows? [18:53] <@mirek2> no [18:53] <@mirek2> not on Windows or macOS [18:53] <alexanderW> okay [18:53] <alexanderW> Show preview of fonts [18:53] <@mirek2> Gnome and Ubuntu don't use those icons, but maybe KDE does? I'm not sure [18:53] <alexanderW> I think we should keep that [18:54] <@mirek2> I would get rid of it [18:54] <@mirek2> astron wrote: "This option should be removed. In LibreOffice 3.4, the preview was made more intelligent, so it should always be used." [18:54] <@mirek2> with which I fully agree [18:55] <@mirek2> your thoughts? [18:55] <alexanderW> Well, it looks cleaner if all fonts look the same [18:55] <alexanderW> But it's not too useful I guess [18:56] <@mirek2> yes [18:56] <@mirek2> it's not [18:56] <alexanderW> unneccesary [18:56] <alexanderW> ? [18:56] <@mirek2> yes [18:57] <@mirek2> Show font history [18:57] <alexanderW> useful [18:57] <@mirek2> I echo Astron's sentiments [18:57] <@mirek2> "This setting is useful and should always be enabled. I don't think storing used fonts poses any kind of privacy problem. The tick box should be removed." [18:57] <alexanderW> alright [18:58] <@mirek2> so Unnecessary, imho [18:58] <alexanderW> yes [18:58] <alexanderW> middle mouse button [18:58] <@mirek2> Middle mouse button function [18:58] <alexanderW> advanced? [18:59] <@mirek2> yes, I think so [18:59] <alexanderW> I don't know whether people actually use that [18:59] <alexanderW> hardware acceleration [18:59] <alexanderW> basically advanced, but it can cause issues [19:00] <alexanderW> so rather make it easy to access? [19:00] <@mirek2> astron wrote: "This option should always be enabled, unless there are problems with the video card. This might be a good option for an AOP." [19:00] <alexanderW> AOP? [19:00] <@mirek2> I wonder if it's still an issue [19:01] <alexanderW> yes, I think I read a few comments for the 3.5 release [19:01] <alexanderW> probably on ask.libreoffice.org [19:01] <@mirek2> ok [19:01] <alexanderW> so? [19:02] <@mirek2> until the issues are solved or until we have a working hardware blacklist, then generic, I suppose [19:02] <@mirek2> do we agree on generic, then? [19:03] <alexanderW> yes [19:03] <alexanderW> anti-aliasing [19:03] <alexanderW> enabled by default and advanced? [19:03] <@mirek2> yes [19:04] <alexanderW> Selection [19:04] <@mirek2> it's a ridiculous option [19:04] <@mirek2> unnecessary [19:04] <alexanderW> agree [19:05] <alexanderW> Print [19:05] <@mirek2> I wonder if the print options might not be better dealt with as contextual [19:05] <@mirek2> or perhaps on a printer-by-printer basis [19:06] <@mirek2> for example, the "Convert colors to grayscale" is useful when your printer's out of color ink [19:06] <@mirek2> so "contextual" would be useful in that scenario [19:06] <alexanderW> yes [19:07] <alexanderW> What about Printer warnings? [19:07] <alexanderW> Should they be contextual, too [19:07] <alexanderW> ? [19:07] <@mirek2> what printer warnings? [19:07] <@mirek2> aren't those handled by the OS? [19:08] <@mirek2> whoops, failed to scroll down [19:08] <alexanderW> I doubt it [19:08] <@mirek2> before a decision, though, I would read through https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Whiteboards/KillOptions [19:08] <@mirek2> astron's take [19:09] <alexanderW> so keep these under advanced [19:09] <alexanderW> ? [19:11] <@mirek2> print options I would make contextual (i.e. move to the Print dialog) [19:11] <@mirek2> printer warnings I would make advanced [19:11] <alexanderW> the warnings [19:12] <@mirek2> I don't know why it would be useful to disable the "Paper size" warning, though [19:13] <alexanderW> same for orientation [19:14] <alexanderW> transparency: User wants to permanently work around the transparency bug of her printer (?) - Astron [19:14] <@mirek2> I suppose [19:15] <@mirek2> though, again, this kind of setting is more appropriate on a printer-by-printer basis [19:16] <@mirek2> in any case, I guess these three are best handled as advanced settings [19:17] <alexanderW> yes [19:17] <alexanderW> Paths [19:17] <alexanderW> My documents should eb generic [19:17] <alexanderW> *be [19:17] <@mirek2> really? I would say it should be advanced [19:18] <@mirek2> but I suppose this setting could be a time saver for a lot of people, so let's make it generic [19:18] <alexanderW> especially in business environments [19:19] <@mirek2> yes, you're right [19:19] <Manas> i also think my documents should be generic [19:19] <alexanderW> Autocorrect -> Advanced? [19:19] <@mirek2> yes [19:20] <alexanderW> Same with AutoText? [19:20] <@mirek2> yes [19:20] <alexanderW> Gallery, too? [19:20] <@mirek2> well, that depends on whether we want to get rid of gallery [19:20] <alexanderW> might be needed in schools as someone pointed out on the ml [19:20] <@mirek2> ok, let's make it advanced for now [19:21] <@mirek2> graphics: advanced [19:21] <alexanderW> yes [19:21] <alexanderW> backups generic? [19:21] <@mirek2> I would say advanced [19:22] <@mirek2> the only way most people encounter backups is through the backup wizard, anyway [19:22] <alexanderW> okay, makes sense [19:22] <alexanderW> Templates [19:22] <alexanderW> generic? [19:23] <alexanderW> maybe we should as Rafael how this works right now [19:23] <alexanderW> *ask [19:23] <@mirek2> yes [19:23] <alexanderW> yes to what? [19:23] <@mirek2> let's skip the setting for now [19:23] <@mirek2> to "ask rafael" [19:23] <alexanderW> alright [19:23] <@mirek2> Temporary files: advanced? [19:24] <alexanderW> yes [19:24] <@mirek2> colors [19:24] <alexanderW> hm [19:24] <alexanderW> atm it#s still required I guess [19:25] <@mirek2> yes [19:25] <@mirek2> it depends on https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Color_Handling, which I hope gets finished and implemented [19:25] <@mirek2> but now, it's required and therefore should be generic [19:25] <alexanderW> 'Keep until Color Handling implemented' [19:25] <alexanderW> ? [19:25] <@mirek2> let's label it as generic [19:25] <@mirek2> and if color handling is implemented, we'll label it unnecessary [19:26] <alexanderW> fonts [19:26] <alexanderW> advanced? [19:27] <alexanderW> afk brb [19:28] <@mirek2> see https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Whiteboards/KillOptions#Fonts [19:28] <Manas> how about the option to embed fonts instead of replacement fonts [19:29] <@mirek2> that's being worked on, but wouldn't work in situations when the fonts in question are proprietary [19:30] <@mirek2> which is usually the case, unfortunately [19:30] <Manas> yes [19:31] <alexanderW> that feature is 30.000 € away [19:31] <@mirek2> what do you mean? [19:32] <Manas> :) [19:32] <Manas> its not libre [19:32] <alexanderW> the alliance for ... will sponsor a good implementation of ooxml [19:33] <alexanderW> but font embedding requires extra 30.000 € [19:33] <@mirek2> could you post a link? [19:33] <alexanderW> http://www.osb-alliance.com/index.php/de/home/5-lisog/622-authorities-publish-specification-for-better-support-of-ooxml-in-libreofficeopenofficeorg-new-qoffice-interoperabilityq-working-group-within-osb-alliance-to-coordinate-implementation [19:33] <@mirek2> thanks [19:35] <@mirek2> where did you get the 30.000 € figure? [19:35] <alexanderW> Here's what I meant, but it's in German: http://www.osb-alliance.com/index.php/de/home/5-lisog/817-suse-und-lanedo-setzen-ooxml-verbesserungen-in-libreofficeopenofficeorg-fuer-behoerden-um [19:35] <alexanderW> "Für die vollständige Realisierung der Schrifteneinbettung in den Dokumenten fehlen zur Zeit noch 30.000 €. Weitere Nutzer von LibreOffice/OpenOffice.org sind demnach aufgerufen, einen Beitrag an die Umsetzungsarbeiten zu leisten." [19:36] <alexanderW> For completely implementing the font embedding in documents we need further 30.000 €. Users of LibreOffice/OpenOffice.org are hereby asked to contribute to this effort." [19:37] <@mirek2> ok [19:37] <@mirek2> someone on the esc call said it's being worked on, I believe [19:37] <alexanderW> cool [19:38] <@mirek2> I'm not sure, though, maybe I misunderstood [19:38] <@mirek2> 30000 € sounds a bit much, though [19:40] <Manas> yes [19:40] <@mirek2> at least when I compare that to e.g. http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/novacut/novacut-pro-video-editor?ref=live, where they're asking for only 25 000 $ for a whole video editor, with rewards to contributors [19:40] <Manas> i am sorry for diverting the original topic [19:40] <alexanderW> That would make it also completely compatible with ooxml [19:40] <alexanderW> And MS' spec is 6000 pages huge [19:41] <@mirek2> how does font embedding work with proprietary fonts? [19:41] <alexanderW> with specs like 'works like this bug in Word '97 [19:41] <@mirek2> :) [19:41] <alexanderW> :) [19:41] <alexanderW> I'm not sure [19:42] <Manas> i think Adobe used to make bitmaps of the fonts... [19:42] <Manas> I may be wrong [19:42] <alexanderW> wow, that'd be a really ugly hack [19:43] <@mirek2> PDFs do that, I believe, but it's not suitable for editable text [19:43] <Manas> yes, i agree [19:44] <@mirek2> anyway, let's get back to options [19:44] <@mirek2> Fonts [19:45] <@mirek2> use case from Astron: "User very often exchanges documents with company which uses custom font and the standard replacement font (Arial) always ruins the layout." [19:46] <alexanderW> So we go for advanced? [19:46] <@mirek2> I'm not sure... [19:46] <Manas> i think advanced, most people i work with cannot identify fonts beyond serif or sans anyways [19:47] <@mirek2> I guess advanced is best then [19:47] <@mirek2> even if the document layout is broken, I suppose a user would be hardpressed to find a font with the exact metrics as the original [19:47] <Manas> yes [19:48] <alexanderW> Security [19:49] <@mirek2> astron's take on killoptions: "Nothing to remove. I like this page—it shows a lot of good design sense and is easy enough to understand." [19:49] <alexanderW> great [19:51] <@mirek2> having never used these options, I have to assume they're generally needed, but I'd prefer to not have input here [19:52] <@mirek2> what do you think? [19:52] <alexanderW> I'd say advanced [19:53] <Manas> yes [19:53] <Manas> most users will not use it [19:53] <@mirek2> well, since I don't want to have any input here, how about waiting for Astron here? [19:53] <@mirek2> that most users won't use it is not an argument [19:54] <alexanderW> okay [19:54] <@mirek2> most users won't use japanese language support, but it's something that's necessary for the usability of LibreOffice to Japanese users, and therefore it should be generic [19:54] <alexanderW> ? [19:54] <alexanderW> ah [19:55] <@mirek2> I'm just saying that usage isn't a determining factor for generic options [19:55] <Manas> yes, but the point here is to reduce clutter and if most users don't use it or if it is not a very commonly used feature, we should put it in advanced [19:56] <@mirek2> the point is to reduce clutter, yes, but based on usability and usefulness, not based on usage [19:57] <alexanderW> I need to leave for dinner now [19:57] <@mirek2> ok [19:58] <alexanderW> thanks for chatting [19:58] <@mirek2> thank you [19:58] <alexanderW> Have a nice evening [19:58] <@mirek2> should I upload the log? [19:58] <Manas> bye all [19:58] <alexanderW> Yes, since I still can't figure out how to preserve Empathy's formatting :) [19:58] <@mirek2> ok :)