Design/Meetings/2012-12-22

Attendees

 * alexanderW
 * Astron
 * Medieval
 * michelr
 * mirek2

Topics

 * Template manager
 * T-shirt contest
 * Color picker
 * Icons

Log
astron247: hello there alexanderW: hi astron247:  sorry, havent written the esc call summary yet... will do in the next couple minutes alexanderW: I read the minutes astron247: oh, then, theres not so much more to say... i guess. astron247: other than: "concern about the ui of template manager" – i specifically mentioned the path bar as my example alexanderW: It currently doesn't really look like one astron247: it also doesnt integrate well with the rest of the ui – i.e. the ui becomes rather busy alexanderW: But not as busy as an additional overlay astron247: we have three rows of ui atop each other now... i think it much worse than before actually astron247: i guess it would be possible to unify the path bar and the type-of-template-tabs on the same row astron247: (ie the tabs would have to become a combo box (on the right), and the path bar would be on the left astron247:  ) alexanderW: How? astron247: –this would put a lot of emphasis on the path though alexanderW: But the average user shouldn't need folders, right? astron247: yes. and therein lies the crux [17:13] == mirek2 [59b0ae7b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.176.174.123] has joined #libreoffice-design [17:13] hi there [17:13] <@alexanderW> hi [17:13] hi everyone [17:13] sorry for being late [17:13] no problem [17:14] has the discussion started? [17:14] ill put the log on dropbox... [17:14] thanks :) [17:15] https://dl.dropbox.com/u/87946285/libreoffice/chatlog [17:16] <@alexanderW> If we don't use folders by default the path bar stays hidden [17:16] how about presenting the path bar as text-only inside the template grid area [17:16] like it used to be with the overlay [17:16] the status quo is that we do use folders though. for everything. [17:17] do you know how it looks right now? [17:17] no, could you post a screen? [17:17] <@alexanderW> Yes [17:17] thanks [17:17] https://dl.dropbox.com/u/87946285/libreoffice/pathbar.png [17:18] frist! [17:19] so, it kind of looks like what you wished for, i think [17:19] not really [17:21] well, sort of, I guess [17:21] okay, what did you mean then..? [17:21] well, I really meant to integrate it with the template area chrome [17:21] same background [17:22] some visualization that it is indeed a path [17:23] some differentiation between the current folder and the folders up in hierarchy [17:23] <@alexanderW> What else could be used to visualize that other than Folder > Subfolder or Folder / Subfolder [17:23] <@alexanderW> ? [17:23] == michelr [~michel@mir31-7-78-242-216-54.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #libreoffice-design [17:24] yes, I would use at least ">" [17:24] hi michel [17:24] Hi [17:25] mirek2: so would want it to look more like links? [17:25] michel: what we disccussed so far: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/87946285/libreoffice/chatlog [17:26] yes, I think so [17:26] == alexanderW2 [d4ffe3cc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.255.227.204] has joined #libreoffice-design [17:26] thx, give me few minutes! [17:26]  back [17:27] honestly, I think we should do another design round [17:27] finding and solving design mistakes [17:27] in the older build that I have, there are tons of things to work on [17:27] e.g. "Import" appears on selecting a template -- why? [17:27] == alexanderW [d4ffe3cc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.255.227.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] [17:28] why is "sort by name" the only sort option and why doesn't it sort this way by default? [17:29] why do we have to use the old folder hierarchy? why can't all the templates be presented on the home screen? [17:29] i think the idea was a checkbox for toggling sort by name and sort by name (reverse) [17:30] ok [17:30] so I would propose to start an e-mail thread listing all the design bugs that we should solve [17:30] another two questions of mine: [17:31] * would it make sense to replace the start centre wit the template manager? (everybody else does that) [17:31] * do we need the "all" category? [17:31] the start center is important imho [17:31] a) not as it currently stands, and it would also need to have at least a "new document" option [17:32] b) no, I would remove it [17:33] right, not as it is currently, it needs options for "new" and fro "open" [17:33] the start center helped relsove a subtle pb : some first time users thaught that OOo was only a word processing ; as there was only one icon on the desktop [17:34]  The template manager shows the other available document types [17:35] also, rather than use the template manager, I would rather use a file manager on the basis of the template manager [17:35] like we will have on our Android and web ports [17:36] afaik, the start center was mostly added for mac users that didnt yet have a file open, but i might be wrong. additionally, eg staroffice used to have its own desktop, task panel, start button ... so this might have been some of the forebears of the current start center. [17:36] the start center came long before the mac port [17:36] right [17:38] so, I'd propose this: throughout the week, let's collect all the bugs related to the template manager and propose fixes as they come [17:38] fixes should appear on the wiki under a special category I'll create [17:39] with everyone able to propose a bug or a fix [17:39] cant we create a new whiteboard, with a slightly different process? [17:39] Wouldn't it be easier to work on prototypes ? [17:39] prototypes tend to be very hard to create [17:39] I'm just talking about small bugs [17:40] as for a new whiteboard, I'd prefer to keep the work on the one we have [17:40] balsamiq makes it somewhat simpler... [17:40] we're not doing a completely new redesign [17:40] well, balsamiq is neither free nor open-source [17:40] == alexanderW2 [d4ffe3cc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.255.227.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] [17:41] balsamiq are just mockups, i'm talking about live prototype [17:41] just like the color picker [17:41] you can use links within your mockups [17:41] (in balsamiq) [17:41] I had no time to answer the feedback, but it was very interesting [17:42] == alexanderW3 [d4ffe3cc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.255.227.204] has joined #libreoffice-design [17:42] I think there's a way to put links in Inkscape as well [17:43] right. i think i read this on mairin duffys blog at some point... [17:43] never used it, though, but I have used Sozi [17:43] I'll do a prototype that integrate your suggestions (from the future wiki page) [17:43] == alexanderW [d4ffe3cc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.255.227.204] has joined #libreoffice-design [17:44] alright, if you'd like [17:44]  sorry, the connection sucks [17:44] I'll put up an update of the template SVG [17:44] later [17:46] astron247: how about instead of a new whiteboard, I'll create a separate page for a subsection of the templates dialog [17:46] "Design Bugs"? [17:46] == alexanderW3 [d4ffe3cc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.255.227.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] [17:47] or we could have a whole new "Design Bugs" wiki subsection [17:47] for collecting design bugs and fixing them as they come [17:47] mirek2: sounds good to me... you can probably just add /Design_Bugs to the page name [17:47] i dont like the idea of creating a new category for this really. [17:47] alright [17:48]  papercuts? [17:48] nah. [17:48] where can i upload prototypes ? in the wiki ? [17:48] sure [17:48] the color was on my personal server, fir the first test [17:49] you can upload it wherever, I think [17:49] i think the michels problem is that the wiki is not serving arbitrary html... [17:49] but they are html pages, not wiki content [17:50] personally, i'd try github or dropbox... [17:50] +1 [17:51] i know youre selling your soul and all... [17:53] I don't think DropBox is that bad [17:54] I already have a sourceforge account, i'll use it [17:55]  ANother design bug is the scrolling [17:55]  it's not continuous [17:55] what's wrong with scrolling? [17:55] ok [17:57] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Templates_and_documents_rework/Design_Bugs [17:57] most of the bugs seem to be trivial [17:57] not sure if the page is needed after all [17:57] but at least we have a place to collect bugs now [17:58] theres bugzilla, too [17:58] I know [17:58] but creating tons of design bug reports for a constantly-changing template manager also doesn't seem ideal [17:59] or am I wrong? [17:59] no [18:00] so... let's collect these, discuss them throughout the week, and bring it to a finish next IRC chat? [18:00] or do we need to be speedier? [18:01] well, christmas nears and cedric is probably not working during that time [18:01] alright, so next IRC chat it is [18:02] unless all you guys are going to be busy [18:02] not next saturday, i think [18:03] okay, new topic? [18:03] yes [18:03] color picker? [18:03] id love to quickly discuss the t shirts... [18:04] alright, sure [18:05] we have three entries now ... one of them is from me (and was only supposed to be a proof-that-a-shirt-can-be-done kind of thing) and we have one from medieval (thanks!) and k-j. [18:05] right [18:05] == alexanderW_ [d4ffe3cc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.255.227.204] has joined #libreoffice-design [18:05] so, i would propose postponing the deadline and putting up another g+ post with some better wordage [18:06] okay [18:06] (dealine was yesterday, btw) [18:06] + [18:06] d [18:06] and say that the winner gets the shirt this time [18:06] right [18:06] so that there's incentive [18:06] btw, just for inspiration, I love what Red Hat did for the last conference [18:06] http://blogs.gnome.org/uraeus/files/2012/10/IMAG0657.jpg [18:07] (it didn't get made it time for the conference, though) [18:07] god, i really dont like that shirt [18:07] but ok ... matter of taste [18:07] :) [18:07] == alexanderW [d4ffe3cc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.255.227.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] [18:08] == alexanderW6 [d4ffe3cc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.255.227.204] has joined #libreoffice-design [18:08] alright, feel free to put up the G+ post [18:08] anyway, what would you think would be the best new deadline? jan 4? jan 11? [18:09] that's probably best for the marketing team to decide [18:09] as they'll be in charge of getting it printed on time [18:10] == alexanderW_ [d4ffe3cc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.255.227.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] [18:10] fosdem is in the beginning of february, so, i guess that either might still be ok [18:10] but ill try to talk to them... [18:10] ok [18:11] make sure that the deadline is before an IRC chat, so that we have a chance to vote for them [18:11] the dates are both fridays [18:11] great :) [18:11] next topic? [18:11] yes [18:12] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Color_Picker [18:12] I've updated the tentative design [18:12] based on the comments [18:12] still not satisfied with the look of the category picker, though [18:12]  Will 4.1 be a bug-fix only release? [18:13]  4.0.1 I meant [18:13] yes [18:14] why do you ask? [18:15] while creating the color picker proto, i was disturbed by the way the height is handled : [18:15] the height changes depending on some contents [18:15] but some content need scrollbar [18:15] agree this is odd [18:16] i found it non coherent (to develop and to use) [18:16]  I was just wondering whether maybe features would be added in a 4.0.x release since there were so many under the hood changes for the 40 [18:17] michelr: it acts the same way as menus do [18:17] there's a maximum height, if the content overflows, a scroll bar shows up [18:18] otherwise, the pop-over's height is adjusted to the contents [18:18] alex: the rule is that tdf brings out a new major version every 6 months, and a new bug-fix release every month (for every major version that is less than half a year old) [18:18] (or so) [18:18] mirek2: that's the 'otherwise' part that i don't like ;-) [18:19] == alexanderW7 [d4ffe3cc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.255.227.204] has joined #libreoffice-design [18:19] you propose to have the pop-over take up the whole height of the screen even when it doesn't need to? [18:20] wouldn't that be a waste of space, as well as make it harder to work with? [18:20] mirek2: a sane default height would be enough [18:20] == alexanderW6 [d4ffe3cc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.255.227.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] [18:20] astron247: but why take up extra space when you don't need to? [18:20] I have 2 proposals : [18:21] would you propose a height default for menus as well? [18:21] because resizing windows are nasty [18:21] - a fixed height and content have scrollbars [18:22] - a mini height (that is enough for most contents) and sizable till the end of screen only if necessary [18:22] astron247: what's nasty about them, as long as clickable areas stay in the same space and the transition is not disorienting? [18:23] michelr: not sure what you mean by the "mini height" proposal [18:23] could you elaborate? [18:24] mirek2: the transitions that apple uses make it bearable, but without them, it just looks like things are jumping around [18:24] yes : the picker has a default height that is ok for most contents ('custom color') [18:24] and for contents (like lists), the picker can grow [18:25] astron247: you're right, LibreOffice animations are pretty horrible (always so choppy) [18:27] ok, so a fixed size it is, I guess [18:27] mirek2: without any (choppy) animation, it wont look good either. and in this case animations really help to understand that youre still dealing with the same window/overlay. [18:27] alright [18:28] what about the category picker? [18:28] (I'm not too happy with the design of the category highlight) [18:29] I proposed something below the tentative design [18:29] imho, it's better, but still needs a bit of work [18:29] what do you think? [18:30] mirek, this is android-native, but everywhere it just doesnt look right [18:31] I really wasn't designing it with Android in mind [18:31] actually, I was inspired by Google's search design [18:31] also, there's not really any native solution to be found here, I believe [18:31]  would it need the small triangle then? [18:32]  why not use the menu highlight style? [18:32] what do you mean by "theres no native solution"? the options dialogue, eg use the native solution [18:32] +s [18:33] so use a list box for the category picker? [18:34] hi, am now online [18:34] a listbox with std highlight would be coherent [18:34] sorry, I got disconnected [18:34] wouldn't it look much uglier, though? [18:36] its certified to look better than anything specially created for the color picker. [18:36] if I'm hearing you right, the highlight should look just like it does in the Options dialog? [18:36] yes [18:36] so a blue rectangle just around the label [18:36] with a dashed border [18:36] in black [18:37] an orange rect on Ubuntu ;-) [18:37] well, I'm on elementary [18:37] and it's probably green on Mint [18:38] == alexanderW7 [d4ffe3cc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.255.227.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] [18:38] one thign that would of course be nice is if it used up the whole line, instead of just appearing around the word [18:39] (and actually the options dialog should be this way too) [18:39] +1 [18:39] so, the design as is, just using the native color [18:39] and a dashed border [18:39] is that right? [18:40] The dashed border is only related to keyboard focus [18:40] right [18:41] ok, so just the native color + bold [18:41] thus it's ok to keep the mockup as is (as the mockup is OS-neutral) [18:42] anything else about the picker? [18:42] the mockup clearly uses adwaita, so blue might be better [18:43] one thing is that the picker is pretty massive... [18:43] :) okay [18:44] astron247: right... [18:44] ... i know i said it didnt matter much, but markus expressed similar doubts about it... so, i am wondering, what we coudl do about it. [18:45] well, we could do some tests with the Gnome color picker [18:45] as it's similarly massive [18:45] trying to hide parts of it would be one way (eg the text box at the left), making it a modal dialogue (like gnome) would be another [18:46] the Windows start menu is similarly massive [18:46] but it works well [18:47] so was the Office 2007 file menu, I believe [18:47] I don't see how making it a modal dialog would help [18:47] it would just make it harder to apply a color [18:47] (as you'd now need several clicks, not just the one) [18:48] also, by "text box at the left", you mean the sidebar? [18:48] if so, I think the concept has been pretty well tested in the examples above, and I would say it works [18:49] == alexanderW8 [d4ffe3cc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.255.227.204] has joined #libreoffice-design [18:49] yes, i meant the side bar [18:51] well, we could always use a drop-down menu instead of a sidebar [18:51] the office 2007 file menu ... looks really weird, but i admit it works ... office 2010's backstage view (that takes up the whole screen works a bit better though (for some reason, no idea why) – but thats not applicable, as we dont really want to hide the whole document [18:52] mirek2: my idea was rather to make it possible to collapse the sidebar [18:52] yeah, I meant the Office 2007 menu [18:52] astron247: it would make more sense to have a drop-down menu, then [18:53] rather then showing the sidebar, picking a category, then collapsing it again, the user would just open the menu and choose a category [18:53] I know you don't like drop-downs in pop-overs, but it's a concept that's been tested time and again when adding a bookmark in a browser [18:54] (usually for selecting a folder) [18:55] right [18:56]  would also make it a bit more compact [18:56]  which would be nice [18:56] that was the idea to begin with, yes [18:57]  The only reason this was changed was touch-usability? [18:57] no [18:58] it was changed because Astron was concerned about having an overlay over an overlay [18:58] drop-downs should be usable with touch [19:00] so... category sidebar or drop-down? [19:01] drop-down needs one more click [19:01] yes, but it's more compact [19:01] im not really a fan of either right now... [19:02] where would you put the drop-down ? [19:02] so what would you suggest? [19:02] michelr: it would probably look somewhat like https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:C-libre.png, just with bigger tiles [19:04] so the drop-down would be just under the 'recent' row ? [19:04] no, recent would probably be moved down above the color preview [19:04] right. [19:05] the category picker would be at the top [19:05] at least, that's how I imagine it [19:05] okay, then if you say that the dropdown is our best option, then we could go for it again... [19:05] astron247: I'm actually torn between the two [19:06]  I'd say the drop-down is more visually appealing and usability-wise there shouldn't be a huge difference [19:06] and I don't see the category sidebar as a big problem [19:06] well, usability-wise: [19:07] * the category picker makes it clear that there's a way to select a custom color and to find document colors [19:07] * it's easier to access [19:07] ad a) right, i never liked the pencil icon in the top right. [19:07] well, such important choice needs prototype ;-) [19:08] go for it :) [19:08] astron247: right, that would be removed, of course [19:09] btw: michel, do you see a way to use real html text instead of just changing out background images? [19:09] * it might pose difficulties for a user to exit the category drop-down in case he decides to not pick a different category [19:11] * it will probably be harder to incorporate gradients, patterns, etc. with a drop-down than a sidebar [19:11]  how so? [19:12] astron247: are you talking about current color picker proto ? [19:12] well, you said, youd like to make comparison. [19:12] astron247: see https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Cg-pal.png [19:13] astron confuzzled [19:14] I used a mix of html elements (text, divs) and images (part of screenshot) [19:14] in general, the sidebar is easier to look and read through, as it's visually separate from the main area [19:14] that was supposed to say "alexanderW8:", not "astron247:" [19:15] michelr: i saw that, and i guess the screenshots are easier at first, but probably make it harder to chage later on (wording changes etc.) [19:15] images were used where no interaction needed [19:15] so we can make prototypes as precise as you want [19:16] ah right, sorry [19:17] <alexanderW8> the linear/radial/whatever options would be the equivalent of the dropdown for gradints, right? [19:18] <alexanderW8> *gradients   Or they could be shown as a drop-down, too [19:18] well, that'll be decided in another design iteration [19:19] okay. ill have to leave now. sorry. [19:19] alright, see you [19:19] and happy holidays [19:19] bye [19:19] <alexanderW8> bye [19:19] thanks, you (all) too [19:19] == astron247 [~frootzowr@dslb-188-103-087-019.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #libreoffice-design [] [19:20] I just meant that having several hierarchy levels stacked on top of each other is more confusing than having one hierarchy level to the side [19:21] <alexanderW8> well, one would still have two levels of hierarchy [19:22] that's the consequence of it's compacity [19:22] <alexanderW8> both having the same orientation would seem more intuitive [19:23] alexanderW8: not necessarily -- we could separate out the different gradient options in the sidebar [19:23] alexanderW8: I beg to differ -- see the tabs under https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/8/84/C-picker.png [19:23] under custom color [19:25] <alexanderW8> It's not that of a big deal [19:25] compare with the considerably more chaotic https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:C-custom.png [19:25] (imagine it bigger) [19:26] anyway, I guess I would have to go for a sidebar [19:26] even though it's a bit less compact [19:26] <alexanderW8> I was just thinking of miller columns etc. you go in one direction and the options for each level are orthogonal [19:27] <alexanderW8> ...to that direction [19:28] works really well for file managers and phone applications, but I don't think it would work well in pop-overs [19:30] so, anyway, michelr will make some prototypes and we'll discuss it then? [19:30] <alexanderW8> Would radial/linear gradient options be shown in a list on the left, too? [19:30] ok [19:30] <alexanderW8> great [19:31] alexanderW8: let's discuss gradients another time [19:31] <alexanderW8> okay [19:31] it'll be long before that can get implemented [19:32] any other topics to cover? [19:33] I'll prepare some emails about other ideas [19:34] btw, even though I'm running an old 4.0 build, I've pulled the new 4.0 files, and I have some comments about the icons: [19:34] But it's not easy to explain in chat, need to write long paragraphs [19:34] ok [19:34] looking forward to it [19:34] <alexanderW8> yeah? [19:34] well, there's still no gnome link icon [19:34] <alexanderW8> there should [19:35] should I test the 4.0.0. beta1 or a nightly build ? [19:35] <alexanderW8> I'll check [19:35] if you'd like [19:36] just to be clear, https://ubuntuone.com/0hDKeT8dHo47ZkVZ3G7pil is the one I'd like us to use [19:36] minus the triangle symbol [19:36] <alexanderW8> http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/tree/icon-themes/tango_testing/cmd/lc_hyperlinkdialog.png [19:37] <alexanderW8> these aren't 4.0 files I guess [19:38] I pulled it today, still get the old sideway chain icon [19:38] but I trust that you uploaded it [19:38] also, great work on the blue shape icons [19:39] why are the object align icons blue, though? [19:39] (from what I remember, they used to be orange) [19:40] <alexanderW8> You pulled the libreoffice-4-0 branch? [19:41] I think so [19:41] earlier today [19:42] <alexanderW8> the ui freeze covers icons? [19:43] don't think it should [19:45] <alexanderW8> I made most of the shape-related icons blue [19:46] it would be good to differentiate types of icons by color [19:46] <alexanderW8> because of that cristicism because of the too color-dul icons [19:46] <alexanderW8> *ful [19:47] <alexanderW8> table stuff green, drawing yellow? [19:48] probably not so simple [19:49] I would leave the shape icons blue, as the shapes are blue by default [19:49] and the text black, as it is black by default [19:50] I actually really like the colors as they are, except I miss the orange align icons [19:50] there's just too much blue now, and there didn't use to be [19:50] while orange is unused [19:51] also, I just noticed that the insert table icon looks too much like the merge columns icon [19:51] could you add cells to the header row of the insert table icon, so it's a little different from the merge icon [19:53] <alexanderW8> one min [19:56] <alexanderW8> yeah [19:56] thanks [19:56] also, I see you replaced the sort icon [19:56] why? [19:57] (I like the old icon a lot more) [19:57] <alexanderW8> hm, export doesn't work [19:57] <alexanderW8> the one visible in te template dialog? [19:58] well, I just see it as a file [19:58] lc_tablesort.png [19:58] it shows a, b, and a black arrow [19:59] on my older 4.0 build, though, it's an arrow with blue dots on the left of it [20:01] <alexanderW8> a galaxy one? [20:03] definitely not galaxy [20:04] but it's one from the old Tango set [20:04] still, I think it's really good [20:05] <alexanderW8> I'll take a second look [20:10] <alexanderW8> later I mean [20:11] okay [20:11] another thing [20:11] why not use the vector-based image icon? [20:11] from Gnome [20:11] https://ubuntuone.com/1tLxGvAYBQT7DoiBc1YXH2 [20:13] it's a lot more useful to have a vector icon than a part-vector, part-bitmap one like we have [20:13] and it's also good to be as consistent with the Gnome icon set as possible [20:15] <alexanderW8> well, is it 22 or 24 pixels wide? [20:16] <alexanderW8> The main reason was the toasted tree and the small area used [20:17] gnome offers both sizes [20:18] (in its gnome-icon-theme repository) [20:19] <alexanderW8> Maybe useing the gnome frame with a vectorized more appealing content? [20:19] <alexanderW8> *using [20:20] I like the tree [20:20] but if you can produce some nicer vector image, then sure [20:21] <alexanderW8> I'll do both and post them to the ml [20:22] alright, cool :) [20:23] another thing: there's a new subscript/superscript svg using a b [20:23] but I think the b is too small, as before [20:24] is there really no way to make the b about the same size as the y used to be? [20:24] or use an "a", "x", or alpha, if that'd be necessary [20:24] I have to leave now, I work on prototypes for next week [20:24] Bye [20:25] alright, great [20:25] == michelr [~michel@mir31-7-78-242-216-54.fbx.proxad.net] has left #libreoffice-design [] [20:27] <alexanderW8> x will probably be better [20:27] alright [20:29] <alexanderW8> have you noticed that LO doesn't use the new shape colors consistently? [20:29] <alexanderW8> somethimes it's still the old blue and black [20:29] haven't noticed [20:29] <alexanderW8> in Calc, for example [20:31] report a bug? [20:32] or just open a discussion on ux-advise