Design/Meetings/2020-09-02

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Link

https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/2020/msg00105.html (summary only)

Minutes

[20:00] <htietze> Fellow design and UX enthusiasts: Welcome to the IRC meeting on the 2-years plan. Starting now...
[20:02] <htietze> Not sure how we manage this, IRC isn't my preferred chat system. But let's see. Who comes up with the first idea?
[20:02] --> thorsten (~thorsten@ooo/opensuse.member.netsroth) has joined this channel.
[20:02] <thorsten> o/
[20:03] * htietze waves thorsten
[20:03] <SaschaZ> nice to see so many participate, hello all
[20:03] <htietze> Hi SaschaZ 
[20:04] <htietze> Would be great to have quikee[m] around too since he did some work around theming IIRC.
[20:04] <lo-dsgn-tg> <r​izmut> And eszka
[20:04] <htietze> First idea was to have a Mozilla like plugin/theming system and actually the basics have been done for LibreOffice Online, as far as I know.
[20:05] <lo-dsgn-tg> <h​tietze> @eszka ping
[20:06] <SaschaZ> I think, there was also an idea to unify theming on different platforms
[20:06] <htietze> Many of the visions are depending on development.
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[20:06] <htietze> Unifying the layout is maybe something the design team can achieve themselves.
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[20:07] <htietze> Input please
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[20:08] <SaschaZ> mention it, I thought if we chose several goals we might chose goals for different skills as well, to keep interest for different people
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[20:10] <htietze> Yes, absolutely. So here are my goals:
[20:11] <htietze> Simplifying the NBs, fixing issues around NBs so we can use one as the UI default.
[20:11] <htietze> Started with the UI picker (working but needs polishing) and plan to add other UI features there.
[20:12] <lo-dsgn-tg> <r​izmut> The idea of blended UI is a common concept of FreeDesktop operating system, but it turn to be disingeneouos in propietary one.
[20:12] <htietze> I belive we will not have a perfect UI in the next two years and have to think ahead. One idea is the HUD/Spotlight thing to run commands.
[20:13] <htietze> Which means you type "bold" (or just bol) and enter to execute the command.
[20:13] --> andreas_k (5470d55a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.84.112.213.90) has joined this channel.
[20:13] <andreas_k> hi
[20:13] <htietze> Could include more information as known from KRunner.
[20:13] <htietze> https://userbase.kde.org/Plasma/Krunner
[20:13] <jmux> UI picker = 1st start dialog to select menüs or tabs? That would definitly be a good idea.
[20:14] <htietze> ticket is tdf#91874
[20:14] <IZBot> LibreOffice-UI enhancement/high NEW A Search by function or keyword over main menu-- similar to SpotLight, Tell Me, or Ubuntu's HUD but native for LO GUI https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91874
[20:14] <htietze> jmux yes, see https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/c/core/+/99957
[20:14] <IZBot> gerrit: »Resolves tdf#117463 - Dialog to show UI options« by Heiko Tietze for master [NEW]
[20:14] <SaschaZ> I guess the plugin-system made already progress and can/will enhance LO quite a lot, so it has my yes
[20:16] <htietze> We got the Addition/Tight integration of extensions implemented and could add this at several places. 
[20:16] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> do we have an notepad or something?
[20:16] <lo-dsgn-tg> <r​izmut> A built in HUD/Spotlight/Tell Me/KRunner should be a key feature for UX access.
[20:16] <htietze> Maybe not ship all icon themes, for example, anymore but allow installation with a simple click.
[20:17] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> svg icon support would be very high priority on my personal list for LibreOffice 8
[20:17] <htietze> AndreasKainz Will copy IRC chat later
[20:17] <quikee[m]> htietze: I'm here
[20:17] <htietze> quikee[m]: \o/
[20:18] <htietze> quikee[m]: How about the theming engine to change the UI look and feel?
[20:18] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> I think if we have a well integrated extension manager we can outsource a lot of stuff
[20:19] <lo-dsgn-tg> <r​izmut> What is our first topic really?
[20:19] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> Theming is the first toppic
[20:19] <quikee[m]> htietze: it's up to the designers to create the themes - enabling it for desktop would be easy
[20:20] <htietze> quikee[m]: Wohoo! Is there an example how to do? SaschaZ was interested in this topic
[20:20] <quikee[m]> @rizmut: I have a HUD kind of thing almost working (just taking the menu structure)
[20:20] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> where is the documentation or the "idea" how to make themes? And I don't think about the personas thing.
[20:22] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> as all the .uno commands are in 2 files (one generic and one app specific) it shouldn't be to complacted to search them
[20:22] <quikee[m]> vcl/uiconfig/theme_definitions/ios/ is an example
[20:22] <lo-dsgn-tg> <r​izmut> quikee are you talking about in house solution?
[20:22] <SaschaZ> @htietze I was just mention that there was also the proposal to unify branding/UI. I prefer usalbility before poor visual
[20:23] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> If we need some help how can we ask? The design work can be done by the design team, but sometimes an mentor would be nice
[20:23] <htietze> quikee[m]: Seems also to be the way for then most wanted feature: night mode.
[20:23] <quikee[m]> @rizmut yes - I was experimenting with that some time ago, I'm now moving a lot of my random patches into private/tvajngerl/staging
[20:24] <quikee[m]> A​ndreasKainz: you can ask me if something is not clear
[20:25] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> I think if there is a theme engine the first run would be to make nice themes (light and dark) and than we can talk about unify branding/UI
[20:25] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> quikee[m] how deap is the theming going? would it work for light/dark themes, os specific stuff, ...
[20:26] <quikee[m]> htietze: night mode ... well we can create our own themes for sure, but we want also native themes I guess
[20:26] <jmux> SVG icons as default: I would be all for it, but I doubt someone will fix the LO SVG renderers for free (bug is tdf#115439)
[20:26] <IZBot> LibreOffice-LibreOffice enhancement/high NEW High DPI mode: SVG icons should be preferred over PNG versions when available https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115439
[20:26] <htietze> This file shows what is possible https://opengrok.libreoffice.org/xref/core/vcl/uiconfig/theme_definitions/ios/definition.xml
[20:26] <lo-dsgn-tg> <r​izmut> And what the reason you dont send the patch to master quikee?
[20:26] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> I ask cause LibO has a lot stuff that was done for one specific task/os/desktop/... could the theming reduce the work on VCL backend specific stuff
[20:26] <quikee[m]> A​ndreasKainz: Instead of asking the OS to draw, it uses SVG to draw
[20:28] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> for example plasma theming work also with svg files (and color schemes) is it that way?
[20:28] <quikee[m]> A​ndreasKainz: I don't know how plasma works
[20:28] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> and would it be possible to do an svg plasma/kde theme, an gtk3 theme, an windows 10 theme, ...
[20:29] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> the reason I'll ask it that after investigate into the theming it would be usefull that after that work, the theming will be less work than the OS integration now
[20:29] <lo-dsgn-tg> 'This is pushbutton-default.svg' uploaded by h​tietze: https://i.imgur.com/6DNBKMN.jpg
[20:30] <htietze> Easy to adopt different layouts
[20:30] <quikee[m]> @rizmut because, it's not finished - like 80% done but as you know to do the last 20%, you needs 80% of the time
[20:31] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> how can we play with the theming engine? how to activate an theme to play with (experimental mode)
[20:32] <quikee[m]> you can make as much layouts as you want, but the code for that is not written yet
[20:32] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> for everybody we talk about what we would like to have for >> LibreOffice 8 <<
[20:33] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> is it possible to load the ios theme with an vcl parameter?
[20:34] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> and as it use svg does it has the same rendering issues than the svg icons?
[20:34] <htietze> Quikee said it draws SVG instead VCL
[20:35] <quikee[m]> it uses svg but vcl draws it
[20:35] <quikee[m]> yes it has the same issues
[20:36] <quikee[m]> or let's say depends, because there are 2 ways to draw it
[20:36] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> was it done for iOS in mind or is the theming engin something like the future of LibO theming?
[20:36] <quikee[m]> see my LO conference talk
[20:36] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> link please
[20:37] <htietze> Use your preferred search engine.... We should continue with the plan.
[20:37] <quikee[m]> it was done for theming LOOL dialogs, but not limited to that
[20:37] <htietze> thorsten: Still around?
[20:39] <quikee[m]> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEvJ3tZAtv4
[20:39] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> thanks
[20:40] <SaschaZ> so both theming engine and SVG-support still needs developing? How does it stands around the Notebookbar, I read it even has plugin support?
[20:40] <htietze> Besides my question to thorsten, what would you like to see realized in next year's GSoC? Export a presentation to video sounds like a cool project but doesnt require design/UX work. What can/should we do here?
[20:40] <quikee[m]> lol, my voice is creepy :(
[20:42] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> I think there was somewhere flash support in impress I had in mind.
[20:43] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> HUD support would be a nice GSOC project isn't it?
[20:44] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> is the style inspector "finished" or did it need a second GSOC project?
[20:44] <htietze> Hm.... (would love to do it myself but real developer is definitely the better choice)
[20:45] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> style inspector or HUD?
[20:45] <htietze> SI is finished and might be enhanced but not in a GSoC project.
[20:45] <lo-dsgn-tg> <r​izmut> Oh no so sleepy
[20:45] <htietze> AndreasKainz https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=134554
[20:45] <IZBot> bug 134554: LibreOffice-Writer normal/medium NEW [Meta] Styles Inspector
[20:45] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> so idea from @rizmut before he sleep
[20:47] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> at the 2 year agenda there is notebookbar and UI layouts and reduce of layouts, ...
[20:48] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> I played around with toolbar xml files, sidebar ui files and notebookbar. All the different ui files has there pro an con.
[20:48] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> toolbar xml are really easy to change, but you need the xml files AND code work for visible toolbars and so on.
[20:49] <jmux> Fix the SVG renderers? Mybe that can become a tender from the TDF. It would generally help icons and - as I understand quikee[m] - also the mobile version.
[20:49] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> notebookbar.ui files have everything in one big file so you need "only" glade and you can edit everything, but the .ui files are very complecated to edit, ...
[20:50] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> sidebar.ui files have the con from notebookbar.ui files AND .xml files. you need glade and coding work.
[20:51] <jmux> Is there supposed to be sume budget available to realize some design work, or are we speking about volunteer work only?
[20:51] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> Fix the SVG renderer would help icons, HiDPI, theming and willl bring LibO to the year 2010.
[20:51] <htietze> Using Glade for NBs seems to be doomed. Caolan commented several times that it is a bad solution and obviously he cannot/will not submit patches around this. DonÄt know if we can progress there at all.
[20:52] <SaschaZ> only glade, so vulcan developing?
[20:52] <htietze> jmux: Depends. Projects that have a clear advantage and cannot be done by volunteers might be tendered.
[20:53] <SaschaZ> oh googled Glade, sorry mixed something up
[20:53] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> without HiDPI support there is no LibO in the future and therefore svg support is part of it.
[20:53] <htietze> However, two years ago I asked for a few bucks to tender new Writer templates... So let me add planning and time to the requirements.
[20:54] <jmux> A​ndreasKainz: there is HiDPI support and it's working reasonably well. The only problem is the SVG icons, AFAIK.
[20:55] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> I think notebookbar.ui are a dead horse at least cause LOOL, mobile, ... can't use it.
[20:55] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> is a dead horse
[20:55] <jmux> htietze: the major problem is defining the real bugs. Even I can see that the bitmap icons look better at 100% scaling.
[20:56] <quikee[m]> there is a ton of LO graphic stack issues we need to solve... after that SVG icons will solve themelves because the issues are with the stack
[20:56] <lo-dsgn-tg> <r​izmut> Here my suggestion for some topics
[20:56] <lo-dsgn-tg> <r​izmut> -Provide unified UI theming appearance for all platforms. Or at least for Windows and macOS
[20:56] <lo-dsgn-tg> <r​izmut> -Make HUD-like feature as the next GSoC project as student just need to do 20% work from quikee's part.
[20:56] <lo-dsgn-tg> <r​izmut> -For SmartArt, has LibreOffice got high success rate in reading the object/chart/graphic by now. If so, we can continue to provide supporr for creating Smart Art.
[20:56] <lo-dsgn-tg> <r​izmut> -For icon I fully support the termination of PNG variant.
[20:56] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> and add an svg2png renderer as depandancy?
[20:57] <jmux> But just saying "the SVG should look better" won't result in fixes.
[20:58] <jmux> A​ndreasKainz: it's not just the rendering. Draw is able to edit SVGs, so the internal representation and the drawing must fit.
[20:58] <lo-dsgn-tg> <K​ompilainenn> Hi all
[20:59] <htietze> The later the evening... 
[20:59] <lo-dsgn-tg> <K​ompilainenn> Haha, we talked with Mike K. about SVG icons one hour ago
[20:59] <thorsten> htietze: yeah, on & off ;)
[20:59] <jmux> I'm told there are actually two SVG implementations in LO, which also doesn't help
[20:59] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> for SmartArt I suggest to have something like an simple script language where the user can draw stuff with lines, ... gallery items, or with predefined "templates" so an pimped macro window
[20:59] <htietze> thorsten: some time ago we talked about dpoing keyboard work in a gsoc project and you were interested. 
[21:00] <quikee[m]> jmux: no, for importing there is only svgio now
[21:00] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> SmartArt would be a great playground for us designes
[21:00] <htietze> thorsten: Point is that we bind english keys to commands and that's very uncomfortable. would appreciate a more flexible solution - also at the code.
[21:00] <jmux> quikee[m]: so there is generally just one place which needs fixing? That would be an improvement :-)
[21:00] <htietze> thorsten: Feasible?
[21:00] <thorsten> htietze: yep, still am
[21:01] <lo-dsgn-tg> <K​ompilainenn> Jmux: I suggested change our SVG realization to one fast external library, Armin didn't allow :-)
[21:01] <quikee[m]> jmux: sure, but the problem is the graphic stack :)
[21:02] <jmux> K​ompilainenn: I had a patch, which was using librsvg for the rendering, because LO simply was way too slow
[21:03] <jmux> But that wouldn't help the import in any way.
[21:03] <lo-dsgn-tg> <K​ompilainenn> Jmux: one moment,I'll try find my enh with SVG lib name
[21:03] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> did TDF find an dev mentor?
[21:04] <thorsten> application period still running ;)
[21:04] <lo-dsgn-tg> <K​ompilainenn> Jmux: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=117788
[21:04] <IZBot> bug 117788: LibreOffice-filters and storage enhancement/medium RESOLVED WONTFIX use library resvg for work with SVG file
[21:04] <jmux> Still this is the "neverending" discussion. It feels like this was the problem since I started hacking on LO years ago.
[21:04] <lo-dsgn-tg> <K​ompilainenn> There is a link to github there
[21:05] <lo-dsgn-tg> <K​ompilainenn> Author say it's fastest svg realization
[21:06] <jmux> K​ompilainenn: I would prefer correctness over fast.
[21:07] <quikee[m]> SVG must become a native format in LO - also for things that currently SVM is used - if we find workarounds using other libraries to get some fixed, there will be less of a reason for TDF to tender this
[21:07] <thorsten> +1 to retire svm
[21:07] <thorsten> about time ..
[21:07] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> @htietze ask for svg tender
[21:07] <thorsten> ..needs read support, but can quarantine that somewhere, as toxic wate
[21:08] <thorsten> waste
[21:09] <jmux> And then we can even support SVG in OpenType fonts - with animations ;-)
[21:09] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> Default layout ideas for LibreOffice 8
[21:09] <lo-dsgn-tg> <K​ompilainenn> Jmux: that site has very long list with support SVG feature
[21:10] <htietze> What exactly do you want to tender, @AndreasKainz
[21:10] <lo-dsgn-tg> <K​ompilainenn> And Mike said today that speed is important if we want SVG icons in UI instead PNG
[21:11] <thorsten> could cache/buffer that probably, in a 1st cut
[21:11] <lo-dsgn-tg> <K​ompilainenn> Ok, I just gave additional info to jmux
[21:11] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> @htietze tender: use of svg as a native format in LO which will solve our icon bug and will improve interoperability with inkscape and the huge svg community
[21:11] <quikee[m]> @K​ompilainenn SVG icons are cached ... even today
[21:12] <lo-dsgn-tg> <K​ompilainenn> And it's slow anyway
[21:12] <lo-dsgn-tg> <K​ompilainenn> No?
[21:12] <quikee[m]> no
[21:13] <lo-dsgn-tg> <K​ompilainenn> Ok
[21:13] <lo-dsgn-tg> <K​ompilainenn> Let's go to next topic?
[21:13] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> how can we improve the UI interoperability between LibO, LOOL, mobile viewers, ...?
[21:13] <quikee[m]> because it's the same as loading a PNG file
[21:15] <htietze> @AndreasKainz Not specific enough. SVG is a "native" format, it can be loaded and saved, it is "fast", etc. Missing could be multi-color gradients but you don't have this in mind. Think about the applicants who need a clear plan and consider the board who have to accept the final product. 
[21:16] <jmux> A​ndreasKainz: regarding interoperability: is there some bug which is actually workable?
[21:17] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> jmux what do you mean?
[21:17] <jmux> you wrote "how can we improve the UI interoperability between LibO, LOOL, mobile viewers, ...?"
[21:17] <jmux> So I assume there is some problem or bug you have in mind?
[21:18] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> with UI interoperability I mean that there are several platforms on each platform LibO core was used but the UI was done on each platform different
[21:19] <jmux> A​ndreasKainz: but the whole idea is, that you want to fit into the platform, so obviously they have diferent implementations… or I'm misunderstanding you…
[21:19] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> the "bug" is that we need on each platform new UI xml, ... files. the only thing that is the same on each platform are the icons.
[21:21] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> why we can't define an UI/UX that fit's on all platforms, so that if you are offline or online your UI will look the same. for sure on mobile it may be a bit different cause of the smale screen but when there is some ui change in LibO this change should be also in LOOL.
[21:22] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> so all .ui and xml files should be used on all implementations. that the button look different on windows or gnome is ok but the button should be on the same place.
[21:22] <jmux> Well - not that can I speak from my experience, but even frameworks like Xamarin don't fit that good. Maybe that has changed nowadays, but that was my impression I got from IT magazines.
[21:22] <htietze> And we drop all VCLs but (the to be intrdocued) Qt version. Yes!
[21:24] <jmux> htietze: with the latest development regarding the Qt company, I'm not so sure that would be a good idea.
[21:24] <jmux> If this was even remotely feasible.
[21:25] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> I don't think that LOOL use QT or GTK or anything like that
[21:25] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> but LOOL and mobile can use the same .xml files for the toolbars
[21:26] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> I don't know what was used on windows (VCL)
[21:28] <SaschaZ> as far I know the native windows framework but it cause a lot of problems you don't have on Linux
[21:29] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> but how maintain the vcl backend on windows?
[21:32] <lo-dsgn-tg> <K​ompilainenn> LOOL and mobile use toolbars?
[21:32] [Away] You are now marked as being away (reason: Gone away for now).
[21:33] <jmux> Is there still a topic?
[21:33] <lo-dsgn-tg> <K​ompilainenn> I don't know :D
[21:34] <lo-dsgn-tg> <K​ompilainenn> htietze: you should manage us ;-)
[21:34] <lo-dsgn-tg> <h​tietze> How?
[21:34] <lo-dsgn-tg> <K​ompilainenn> There were many topics in that letter
[21:34] <lo-dsgn-tg> A​ndreasKainz shared a file (image/png) on Telegram with caption: 'Untitled Document'
[21:35] <jmux> There was some agenda?
[21:35] <lo-dsgn-tg> <K​ompilainenn> say us like "Now, next topic _______________"
[21:35] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> yes LOOL hast a toolbar and a sidebar it's a mix between LibO standard layout without standard toolbar.
[21:35] * jmux just "joined" because of the IRC ping
[21:35] <lo-dsgn-tg> <K​ompilainenn> or "Thanks all, I love you"
[21:35] <lo-dsgn-tg> <h​tietze> To my understanding we have covered all topics.
[21:35] <lo-dsgn-tg> <K​ompilainenn> ah, nice
[21:36] <lo-dsgn-tg> <K​ompilainenn> so you can say us "Thanks all, I love you"
[21:36] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> the notebookbar and UI layout stuff isn't covered
[21:36] <quikee[m]> what was the conclusion about extensions like firefox?
[21:36] <jmux> Was there some topic, the design team can actually work on?
[21:36] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> #8 tdf#37134 Tabbed UI: Document-per-tab (similar to Firefox, Opera, gedit) MDI
[21:36] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> #9 tdf#37932 Support for Editing and Creation of SmartArt
[21:37] <IZBot> LibreOffice-UI enhancement/high NEW Tabbed UI: Document-per-tab (similar to Firefox, Opera, gedit) MDI https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=37134
[21:37] <jmux> quikee[m]: "extensions like firefox?"
[21:37] <IZBot> LibreOffice-Draw enhancement/high NEW Support for Editing and Creation of SmartArt https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=37932
[21:37] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> you mean tabbed UI where office files are available at tabbs
[21:37] <quikee[m]> jmux: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/2020/msg00102.html
[21:38] <lo-dsgn-tg> <h​tietze> I get extensions/plugins as becoming more flexible. Piece of this is the theming we talked about. And the new "tight integration" thing.
[21:38] <SaschaZ> Tabbed UI and the search function inside the main UI would be great features but again involves more developing than design
[21:40] <lo-dsgn-tg> <h​tietze> Will look over the discussion when done and collect the essence. Worth to report at ESC.
[21:40] <jmux> quikee[m]: thanks - so you mean the tabbed document UI? I was always told that this would be even more work the switch VCL to Qt.
[21:41] <quikee[m]> htietze: his initial idea was something else - something firefox and OO tried and failed miserably...
[21:41] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> oh and I have an GSOC project. gallery items are now binary blogs and should be edited with an editor (svg or odg) would be nice
[21:41] <lo-dsgn-tg> <h​tietze> Then I missed the point
[21:42] <quikee[m]> "I think it is a waste of the developer resources to redesign the user interface every fifth year, when the fashion changes. What did work
[21:42] <quikee[m]> very well in the past, is the add-on system of Firefox. I would like to see something similar in LibreOffice."
[21:42] <quikee[m]> "(I am talking about the first version of the FF addons, when there was a lot of freedom, not the newer model, when a lot of nice old addons
[21:42] <quikee[m]> don't work anymore.)"
[21:43] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> gallery, smartArt, templates and LibO theming is something the LibO design team can work on, but we may need dev support too so I hope that TDF will find a DEV mentor
[21:44] <SaschaZ> what about Ribbons inside every module and abadon less useful UIs?
[21:45] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> The LibO theming (which was used for iOS) would be
[21:45] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> a great place to play with, but first we need an variable to start the theme on the desktop to play with the theme engine.
[21:45] <quikee[m]> SaschaZ: you'll get castrated by the users
[21:45] <jmux> quikee[m]: well - the browser Firefox has XUL, where the UI is completely implemeted with XML and JavaScript.
[21:45] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> when LibO has Ribbons, MSO has a new UI without Ribbons
[21:45] <SaschaZ> my wife already did this!
[21:46] <quikee[m]> SaschaZ: I wasn't - I can't risk it :)
[21:47] <jmux> LO isn't even remotely as flexible, and if it were, we would be just an other browser (or OnlyOffice or an electron app)
[21:47] <SaschaZ> but seriously, we have 6 diffrent UIs now - that is nonsense
[21:48] <lo-dsgn-tg> <h​tietze> The switch from Mozilla persona to own theming is still on table. Would be rather the background only but nothing blocks us from making this bigger. Maybe another gsoc topic.
[21:48] <quikee[m]> jmux: right, from the UI POV, but I imagine the extension API was tying them down a lot from the development POV, that's why I imagine they've thrown all away for far simpler extensions
[21:48] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> I hope we don't need an GSOC project for LibO theming
[21:49] <jmux> quikee[m]: no, the main reason is security.
[21:50] <jmux> I've worked on FF C++ code and XUL code. The whole browser back then was 3 MB compressed zip of Javascript and XML.
[21:51] <jmux> Actually I was windering, why electron was started with chrome instead of firefox in the first place.
[21:51] <buovjaga> Add-on system of Firefox did NOT work well in the past! Please read this: https://yoric.github.io/post/why-did-mozilla-remove-xul-addons/
[21:52] <buovjaga> tl;dr sums it up nicely
[21:55] <jmux> yeah - compatibility is added even on top of security problems
[21:56] <buovjaga> So I'm sad to say that sort of proposal for LibO is dead on arrival
[21:57] [Away] You are no longer marked as being away.
[21:57] <-- andreas_k (5470d55a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.84.112.213.90) has left this server (Quit: Connection closed).
[21:57] <htietze> Someone asked for management, so let's finish this. Is there anything that needs to be discussed right now?
[21:58] <htietze> I mean we can continue on the mailing list at any time.
[21:58] <quikee[m]> let's wrap it up
[21:58] * jmux still has the feeling, that there is still no topic the design team can actually work on
[21:58] * htietze thinks jmux is right
[21:59] <htietze> quikee[m]: Would do it later, have to read over the chat. But if you have a summary at hand....
[22:00] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> there are some GSOC project ideas
[22:00] <quikee[m]> Well, I have one idea - look into our overlays and come up with an idea how to proceed with that
[22:00] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> an TDF tender for svg stuff
[22:00] <htietze> quikee[m]: overlays?
[22:01] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> LibO theming (like it was done by ios) would be a cool thing for use to work on
[22:01] <quikee[m]> overlays I mean - the selections when you select objects
[22:01] <lo-dsgn-tg> <A​ndreasKainz> ?
[22:02] <quikee[m]> the selection rectangles
[22:02] <quikee[m]> that are overlays over the document
[22:02] <htietze> quikee[m]: Do you have a ticket at hand?
[22:02] <quikee[m]> of course not
[22:02] <SaschaZ> lol
[22:03] <jmux> The SVG tender is more of a QA work, but if you can identify real SVG bugs, write up reports with examples, that would be great.
[22:04] <jmux> Then there would exist stuff to actually do a tender.
[22:05] <lo-dsgn-tg> <K​ompilainenn> jmux: there are two META about SVG (import and export)
[22:05] <lo-dsgn-tg> <K​ompilainenn> with many bugs
[22:05] <htietze> Will have a look into this and the other topics. Let's close the session here, two hours are long enough. Thanks a lot to everyone who joined.