Design/Meetings/2012-04-01

    From The Document Foundation Wiki

    General

    • Date/Time: 2012-04-01, 1400 GMT (supposed start time)
    • Location: IRC, freenode, channel #libreoffice-design

    Attendees

    • alexanderW
    • Mirek2
    • astron

    Log

    (Some hellos went missing because I had to reconnect.– Astron)
    [14:05] <alexanderW> Someone cleaned up the whiteboard overview o.O
    [14:05] <Mirek2> I tried to -- just put some order into thins
    [14:05] <Mirek2> things
    [14:06] <Mirek2> the whiteboards themselves are untouched, though
    [14:06] <alexanderW> At least that's a start
    [14:07] <astron> look good
    [14:07] <alexanderW> What is a bit disappointing is that probably no whiteboard has been implemented yet :/
    [14:07] <Mirek2> I've been thinking about a unified whiteboard template
    [14:07] <astron> ah well take a look under archive...
    [14:08] <astron> i attempted to archive soome thigns that arent that relevant any more about 2 mths ago
    [14:08] <astron> -o -gn+ng
    [14:09] <Mirek2> the problem is, though, that the whiteboards that have been implemented have started out as developer efforts, not as design whiteboards
    [14:09] <astron> the thing is that we should try to stay relevant to the devs.
    [14:10] <Mirek2> exactly
    [14:10] <astron> which means trying to see what they want changed.
    [14:10] <alexanderW> yep
    [14:10] <Mirek2> definitely
    [14:10] <astron> i mean the stuff where kendy pinged you about the status bar –that's great
    [14:10] <Mirek2> what I think would be great is if we had a good browseable collection of ideas
    [14:11] <alexanderW> Maybe we could ask one/some dev(s) what they would want a whiteboard to look like
    [14:11] <astron> ah wikis arent made with that in mind i guess
    [14:11] <Mirek2> I think we need to go the other way around -- propose something first, then see if the developers find it usable or not
    [14:12] <Mirek2> we could ask developers to look at some current whiteboards and pick out the elements that suit them and those that don't
    [14:12] <Mirek2> I've done something similar myself
    [14:12] <Mirek2> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Mirek2#My_Sandbox
    [14:12] <Mirek2> tried to collect items that work for me and items that don't
    [14:13] <astron> what do you mean with "doesnt work for you"?
    [14:13] <astron> or rather which specific element of those doesnt work fy?
    [14:14] <Mirek2> doesn't work for me when a) reading through other's whiteboards, b) collaborating on a whiteboard, c) creating a whiteboard
    [14:14] <Mirek2> e.g. take a look at https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Styles_and_Formatting_window
    [14:14] <astron> oh okay.
    [14:15] <Mirek2> I don't understand what goals are behind that proposal, I'm not sure how to contribute, don't know what motivated the proposal in the first place
    [14:16] <Mirek2> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Color_Handling is much better in this respect
    [14:16] <Mirek2> but it still has some flaws
    [14:16] <astron> it was rough, yeah (when i last looked at it a week ago)
    [14:16] <Mirek2> e.g. not sure why there is a thoughts section when thoughts belong on the mailing list
    [14:17] <Mirek2> it also has a lot of text, which neither designers nor developers want to waste much time with
    [14:18] <astron> right, so, sometimes that lot of text is actually useful in defining what has been thought about so far.
    [14:18] <alexanderW> So should we try to improve the most important whiteboards at first and then contact devs?
    [14:18] <astron> i absolutely agree, it hurts skimmability  though
    [14:19] <Mirek2> I'd like to work together to develop a whiteboard template that is pithy and browseable
    [14:19] <Mirek2> we can use https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Mirek2#My_Sandbox as a starting point
    [14:19] <alexanderW> sounds good
    [14:19] <astron> indeed
    [14:20] <Mirek2> take a look and tell me what's missing and what's unnecessary
    [14:20] <Mirek2> and what could be handled better
    [14:21] <astron> so i guess it should ex. summary (there), status (there), main advantages/disadvantages (not there yet)
    [14:21] <alexanderW> So different proposals would be displayed on that page and after deciding on one, the others would be hidden?
    [14:22] <astron> by the way, there already is a similar whiteboard https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/IdeaWorkflow
    [14:22] <Mirek2> I did mention that
    [14:23] <astron> o sorry
    [14:23] <astron> well then we should probably improve that with stuff from your sandbox.
    [14:24] <Mirek2> I'd link you to an archive page of the mailing list message with my take on the whiteboard, but it seems that the archive is down
    [14:24] <Mirek2> it's probably in your mailbox though
    [14:25] <Mirek2> I speicifcally avoided "Advantages" vs. "Disadvantages", because those are quite subjective (small icons might be an advantage for one, a disadvantage for another) and should be handled on the mailing list
    [14:26] <astron> well whiteboards always take the perspective of its author, no?
    [14:26] <Mirek2> a whiteboard should be used just for describing the problem and the solutions, while the mailing list should be for discussing them
    [14:26] <Mirek2> @astron: no, I don't think it should
    [14:27] <Mirek2> a good whiteboard should be objective, with enough space for anyone's proposals
    [14:27] <astron> doesnt lead to more chaos than good?
    [14:27] <Mirek2> a whiteboard's goal should be to solve a problem, not to develop a single person's idea
    [14:28] <Mirek2> @astron: it's part of working in a community
    [14:28] <astron> so, an idea always starts somewhere. and of course it should be developed collaboratively, but we do need some sort fo leadership
    [14:28] <Mirek2> but if you look at https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Mirek2#My_Sandbox, the proposals are clearly separated
    [14:29] <Mirek2> @astron: basically, all proposals would root from the description of the problem and the scope
    [14:29] <Mirek2> all proposals then come from the scope
    [14:29] <astron> okay, but the problem is still subjective, then
    [14:30] <Mirek2> the Design lead (Christoph Noack, I believe) should take helm when there's a problem to sort out
    [14:30] <Mirek2> (i.e. when we can't merge the proposals together)
    [14:30] <Mirek2> @astron: Take a look at https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Color_Handling
    [14:31] <Mirek2> The "Requirements" section isn't very biased
    [14:32] <astron> how would make that neutral? problems arent objective. and they wont be until UX is a real science
    [14:32] <Mirek2> Just points out the needs (based on feature plans and development restraints)
    [14:32] <astron> damn didnt read what you said...
    [14:33] <astron> but i still think the point remains valid.
    [14:33] <Mirek2> it does, but everything always is subjective somehow
    [14:34] <Mirek2> the more objective we are, the better
    [14:34] <Mirek2> what helps is having a clear vision defined
    [14:34] <Mirek2> some sort of HIG
    [14:34] <astron> right.
    [14:34] <Mirek2> which, incidentally, is another thing I wanted to talk about
    [14:34] <astron> great
    [14:35] <Mirek2> there's even an early whiteboard for it
    [14:35] <Mirek2> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Human_Interface_Guidelines
    [14:35] <Mirek2> again, it doesn't follow the idea handling template
    [14:36] <Mirek2> but before we move on to that topic, I'd like to finish the previous one
    [14:36] <astron> okay
    [14:36] <Mirek2> can we agree to keep all thoughts and opinions to the mailing list and have whiteboards be referential material?
    [14:37] <Mirek2> (i.e. used for describing, not for commenting)
    [14:37] <astron> basically ~yes
    [14:37] <alexanderW> Yes, that makes sense
    [14:37] <Mirek2> Is there anything on https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Mirek2#My_Sandbox that I should change?
    [14:39] <alexanderW> I don't think so
    [14:39] <astron> i still maintain that (dis) advantages should be immediately glanceable
    [14:39] <astron> (if thats a word)
    [14:39] <Mirek2> but (dis)advantages seem like part of the discussion
    [14:39] <astron> but theyre also the motivation for even starting a proposal
    [14:40] <alexanderW> Maybe only the advantages that we can agree on after discussing the topic on the mailing list
    [14:40] <Mirek2> that's what the scope is for
    [14:41] <Mirek2> but proposals based on a scope will have different advantages and disadvantages themselves
    [14:41] <Mirek2> and that's something to handle on the mailing list
    [14:43] <Mirek2> or perhaps I'm not understanding what you're saying properly -- could you give me an example?
    [14:43] <astron> okay ... maybe then have the different proposal's d/advantages available at a glance...
    [14:43] <alexanderW> I think that'd be a good compromise
    [14:44] <Mirek2> ok
    [14:44] <alexanderW> Then it's obvious that those points are subjective and can be regarded as such
    [14:44] <astron> i guess we could use color handling as a test balloon to see if that works
    [14:45] <astron> its obviously a pretty hot topic, dev likes it, design likes it and we really need movement there.
    [14:45] <alexanderW> Yes. And add some kind of example to the sandbox
    [14:45] <Mirek2> adding it right now
    [14:45] <astron> nah, i meant modifying the original page.
    [14:46] <alexanderW> I meant both
    [14:46] <astron> oh
    [14:48] <Mirek2> first shot: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Mirek2#Comparison
    [14:49] <alexanderW> ok
    [14:49] <astron> that'll set the hurdle for adding a new category pretty high.
    [14:49] <Mirek2> what do you mean?
    [14:50] <astron> adding a new table row is comparatively hard.
    [14:50] <astron> but that wouldnt be a problem if we an exhaustive number of categories
    [14:51] <Mirek2> adding a column is harder than adding a row
    [14:51] <Mirek2> it makes sense to have proposals as columns
    [14:51] <Mirek2> I don't think it's very hard to add a row...
    [14:52] <astron> technically, no. (there is a bit of wiki markup necessary) psychologically, it will probably stop you.
    [14:53] <astron> (if youre not the maintainer of the whiteboard
    [14:53] <astron> )
    [14:53] <Mirek2> really?
    [14:53] <alexanderW> So should we go with enumerations instead?
    [14:53] <Mirek2> I think tables are much easier to look through
    [14:54] <Mirek2> long lists can be overwhelming
    [14:54] <astron> i would have proposed a simple table advantages|disadvantages below every proposal
    [14:54] <astron> yes, long lists can be
    [14:55] <Mirek2> but then you don't really have the comparison
    [14:55] <Mirek2> some proposals may use different categories than others
    [14:55] <Mirek2> and it'd be hard to compare proposals because there just wouldn't be a direct comparison (you'd have to remember the data from all the tables to compare)
    [14:57] <astron> maybe some sort of color coding and helpful editing by the person who started the whiteboard woul help
    [14:57] <astron> +d
    [14:57] <alexanderW> Yeah, someone should take care of having a decent table
    [14:57] <Mirek2> what do you mean? have a maintainer for a whiteboard to make sure each proposal is structured in the same way?
    [14:58] <astron> yes.
    [14:58] <astron> we need some one who is responsible for every whiteboard
    [14:58] <astron> who tries to push it, who keeps it in order.
    [14:59] <Mirek2> what do you mean -- have one maintainer per whiteboard, or have one maintainer make sure all whiteboards are structured, or both?
    [14:59] <Mirek2> (I feel both are necessary.)
    [14:59] <astron> one maintainer/whiteboard and mentoring
    [15:00] <astron> (of some sort)
    [15:00] <Mirek2> what kind of mentoring?
    [15:00] <astron> thats where the "of some sort" comes into play, ie idk
    [15:00] <alexanderW> A person you can contact if you want to know more about the reasoning, maybe someone who should get in contact with the developers
    [15:01] <astron> right, someone who pings people via mail (in a friendly manner)
    [15:02] <Mirek2> so a person to guide the whiteboard maintainers? one to make sure that whiteboards are being maintained properly as well as provide a bridge between developers and designers?
    [15:03] <astron> kind of, yes
    [15:03] <Mirek2> why kind of? what am I missing?
    [15:04] <astron> nothing actually.
    [15:04] <astron> the problem is that theres no one full-time on design
    [15:04] <Mirek2> where on design? you'd like a 24/7 contact?
    [15:05] <Mirek2> I think it's enough if the head replies in a day or two...
    [15:05] <astron> not 24/7, 9 to 5 would be enough
    [15:06] <alexanderW> on IRC? I thought of mail?
    [15:06] <Mirek2> so you'd really like for there to be direct responses...
    [15:06] <Mirek2> theoretically, if we really wanted this, we could take shifts
    [15:06] <Mirek2> but I don't think the demand is there...
    [15:07] <astron> hm, what i mean is someone who does this professionally.
    [15:07] <Mirek2> (there are only a handful of us on the team)
    [15:08] <Mirek2> (and we're all able to follow guidelines and contact the design team/developer team mailing list when there's need)
    [15:08] <astron> awk for the mo
    [15:08] <alexanderW> afk?
    [15:09] <astron> no, not any more (but thats what i meant)
    [15:09] <alexanderW> I think it'd be enough to point to the thread and mantion who came up with the original idea
    [15:09] <alexanderW> *mention
    [15:10] <astron> ahm which thread..? (sry, didn't get that)
    [15:10] <astron> the thread for a whiteboard?
    [15:10] <alexanderW> mailing list thread
    [15:10] <alexanderW> on Nabble
    [15:11] <alexanderW> yes
    [15:12] <Mirek2> what do you mean?
    [15:12] <Mirek2> (getting a bit lost)
    [15:12] <astron> okay...me too
    [15:13] <alexanderW> A link on the whiteboard page linking to the mailing list thread on Nabble plus a mention who originally come up with the idea
    [15:14] <astron> to do what?
    [15:15] <alexanderW> allow people who are not on the design team to join the discussion. It probably won't be the case very often, but at least there is a contact given
    [15:15] <astron> okay, yes
    [15:16] <Mirek2> yeah, ok
    [15:18] <Mirek2> so, to summarize, we want one template for most if not all of our whiteboards, yes?
    [15:18] <alexanderW> yup
    [15:18] <astron> definitely
    [15:19] <alexanderW> What's up next?
    [15:19] <Mirek2> a HIG
    [15:19] <Mirek2> though it may be too early to discuss this
    [15:19] <astron> id love to have christoph here for that discussion
    [15:19] <alexanderW> we might need some more knowledge regarding VCL
    [15:20] <alexanderW> yes
    [15:20] <alexanderW> IIRC, it can rearrange UI elements based on the platform LO is used on
    [15:21] <astron> yes, theres some xml format that almost no dlg uses whichj can do that
    [15:21] <Mirek2> yeah, but that's a smaller issue
    [15:21] <Mirek2> of course we should always follow the platform's HIG if we can
    [15:22] <astron> which begs the question by how much different versions of libo should diverge
    [15:22] <Mirek2> what I'd like is some sort of consistency in the LibO UI
    [15:22] <alexanderW> I think one of the most important aspects is that we can express the HIG in very few words
    [15:22] <Mirek2> for example, we have several ways of sorting commands
    [15:22] <alexanderW> What bugs you currently the most?
    [15:23] <alexanderW> In Calc?
    [15:23] <Mirek2> one for toolbars, one for menus, one for the customize dialog, one for panes, ...
    [15:23] <alexanderW> ah, sorting commands
    [15:23] <Mirek2> and the categorization is pretty haphazard
    [15:23] <alexanderW> not 'sorting commands'
    [15:23] <alexanderW> lol
    [15:23] <Mirek2> or take a look at the Options dialog
    [15:24] <Mirek2> :)
    [15:25] <alexanderW> Efforts in the direction of an about:options kinda thing would be very helpful to weed out the mostly unused stuff
    [15:25] <astron> what is there to sort?
    [15:25] <astron> yes, ill hopefully be able to discuss about:config stuff with tbehrens at the hackfest
    [15:26] <alexanderW> great
    [15:26] <astron> the good news is that at least it is a gsoc proposal
    [15:26] <Mirek2> yeah, hopefully
    [15:26] <Mirek2>  there are some decisions that have been made since the inception of LibreOffice that I think made the UI worse
    [15:27] <Mirek2> for example, the Title page dialog is pretty unusable
    [15:27] <Mirek2> or the new navigation toolbar
    [15:27] <astron> havent used the title page dlg very much. navigation toolbar is annoying
    [15:28] <astron> (at least preconfigured)
    [15:28] <Mirek2> the thing is, few people know what the dialog is actually for
    [15:28] <astron> im not objecting to having it in the software (although it is a bit unreliable) – but i cant see much of a point in using it. and most wont be able to either, so it should be hidden by default
    [15:29] <astron> most +users
    [15:29] <Mirek2> it shouldn't be hidden by default -- if anything, it should be an extension
    [15:29] <Mirek2> why bother bundling something with your software if you'll hide it afterwards...
    [15:30] <alexanderW> I think that dialog is useful, but it should be moed to 'insert'
    [15:30] <alexanderW> *moved
    [15:30] <Mirek2> how is it useful?
    [15:31] <Mirek2> does it do anything the "Page..." dialog doesn't do?
    [15:31] <Mirek2> we already have all the features the dialog has
    [15:31] <Mirek2> and they're more usable than the dialog is
    [15:32] <astron> right, i think the idea was to make title page creation more task oriented
    [15:32] <astron> (not that id know)
    [15:32] <Mirek2> plus the dialog has some bugs like allowing you to select to place title pages at pages that don't exist
    [15:32] <astron> have you reported that?
    [15:32] <Mirek2> and it only covers only a single page style
    [15:33] <Mirek2> by that reasoning, we should also have a separate "left-right pages" and "reference page" wizards
    [15:33] <Mirek2> which would be perfectly acceptable, but as extensions rather than features
    [15:33] <alexanderW> Well, I needed to have some title pages without pagenumbers in the footer and continguing on the second page with "2"
    [15:34] <Mirek2> I've read about it somewhere
    [15:34] <alexanderW> I'll just try to do so without that dialogue
    [15:34] <Mirek2> so I hope the person that wrote about it filed a report
    [15:34] <Mirek2> @alexanderW: ok, go ahead
    [15:35] <Mirek2> if you find it hard, then that means we need to improve the usability of page styles
    [15:35] <Mirek2> not that we need a wizard for everything that could be accomplished with page styles
    [15:35] <astron> sure
    [15:36] <astron> thats the root cause
    [15:36] <astron> we need more emphasis on usign styles
    [15:37] <astron> and better styles creation obviously
    [15:37] <Mirek2> yes, but not at the detriment of hard coding
    [15:37] <Mirek2> (I keep hearing that we should hide the bold and italic icons, for example, which would just be detrimental)
    [15:38] <Mirek2> Google Docs does it quite well
    [15:38] <Mirek2> http://clickortap.wordpress.com/2012/02/19/notice-google-docs-new-style-management/
    [15:39] <alexanderW> Seems to work well
    [15:39] <Mirek2> it does, really well
    [15:39] <alexanderW> We need to make those styles more prominent
    [15:40] <Mirek2> one of the things I suggested was to have one drop-down for paragraph styles, one for character styles
    [15:40] <Mirek2> since both have different use cases
    [15:40] <Mirek2> it would also help narrow down the list of styles
    [15:40] <alexanderW> Which ones ore the mos
    [15:40] <alexanderW> t used ones?
    [15:40] <Mirek2> paragraph styles
    [15:41] <alexanderW> yes and then?
    [15:41] <Mirek2> character styles aren't very common
    [15:41] <alexanderW> I think page styles would be more useful than character styles
    [15:41] <astron> i wouldnt say that
    [15:41] <Mirek2> then page styles, I assume
    [15:41] <Mirek2> I think so
    [15:41] <alexanderW>  Plus, having previews like in Google docs would be a big advantage
    [15:41] <astron> agree
    [15:41] <Mirek2> most of what you can do with character styles is easily done with hard coding
    [15:41] <Mirek2> agree
    [15:42] <astron> sure, but with character styles you can convey meaning
    [15:42] <Mirek2> as for making styles prominent, I suggested having colored buttons: http://clickortap.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/overflow.png
    [15:43] <Mirek2> Google does the same thing to emphasize buttons
    [15:43] <Mirek2> Gnome will too
    [15:43] <astron> gnome, though is currently in some sort of exploration phase
    [15:43] <Mirek2> @astron -- I'm not saying that character styles aren't useful, just that they're not used as frequently
    [15:44] <Mirek2> @astron: not at all, they've got their principles nailed down
    [15:44] <astron> we could add "strong" and "emphasis" buttons in place of the bold/italc buttons :)
    [15:44] <astron> shell is quite usable, but documents and web arent
    [15:45] <astron> (at least not using a mouse
    [15:45] <astron> )
    [15:45] <Mirek2> they have them designed, just need to develop them
    [15:45] <Mirek2> web will get a completely tabless design
    [15:45] <Mirek2> which will work similarly to how shell works
    [15:46] <Mirek2> have an overview accessible with a keyboard shortcut or a button click
    [15:46] <alexanderW> Yes, haing very few character styles presented like 'bold' or 'italic' would make sense
    [15:46] <Mirek2> bold and italic aren't styles
    [15:46] <alexanderW> I know
    [15:47] <Mirek2> using strong and emphasis would  be counter-productive
    [15:47] <alexanderW> but they would work the same way, or not?
    [15:47] <astron> i know it woudl be counterproductive
    [15:47] <Mirek2> well, they'd be styles
    [15:47] <astron> incidentally, though, that's what happened when html4 replaced html3.2
    [15:47] <Mirek2> but we want users to use styles as labels, basically
    [15:47] <alexanderW> I meant some thing like maybe 'quote' or something similar
    [15:48] <Mirek2> we already have some styles like that
    [15:48] <alexanderW> yes, I know
    [15:48] <astron> in the list, yes. but a quotes button would be new
    [15:48] <Mirek2> one idea I had was to have a sepearate floating bar for styles: http://clickortap.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/stylebar.png
    [15:49] <alexanderW> But there are so many character styles, I doubt many look through the whole list but apply something similar manually
    [15:49] <Mirek2> with the buttons using 1-3-characters
    [15:49] <Mirek2> this bar would only be for "pinned" (or favorited, or whatever) styles
    [15:50] <alexanderW> paragraph, character or both?
    [15:50] <Mirek2> both
    [15:51] <Mirek2> we really need to clean up the bundled styles, though
    [15:51] <astron> absolutely
    [15:51] <alexanderW> indeed
    [15:51] <Mirek2> perhaps just have styles for headings and make it really easy to create custom styles
    [15:51] <astron> headings are paragraphs
    [15:52] <astron> (styles)
    [15:52] <Mirek2> yes
    [15:52] <alexanderW> I think at least one good style should be bundled
    [15:52] <astron> we don't even need all the heading styles, anything bevyond third outline level is bad anyway
    [15:53] <Mirek2> as I said -- heading styles should be bundled, since they're used quite frequently and since they can be used to generate a table of contents
    [15:53] <alexanderW> maybe we could cooperate with the guys making efforts to deliver good LibreOffice defaults with Ubuntu 12.10
    [15:53] <Mirek2> @astron: I'd handle it this way -- have 10 heading levels, but only show the ones that have already been used in the document + 1 level further
    [15:53] <astron> oh btw cool that you startew a wiki page for that
    [15:54] <astron> -w+d
    [15:54] <Mirek2> (e.g. with a new document, you'd only see "Heading 1", once you applied that, you'd have both "Heading 1" and "Heading 2", once you applied "H2", you'd have "H3" and so on)
    [15:54] <alexanderW> No problem
    [15:55] <alexanderW> Could this cause confusion?
    [15:55] <Mirek2> which wiki page?
    [15:55] <alexanderW> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Ubuntu_Templates
    [15:56] <Mirek2> I don't understand why a person would need to use "Heading 2" if he hasn't used "Heading 1"...
    [15:56] <Mirek2> the whole point of "Heading 2" is to denote a subcategory within a "Heading 1" category
    [15:56] <alexanderW> Sure
    [15:57] <alexanderW> Makes sense
    [15:57] <alexanderW> I was just wondering whether this would reduce or increase confusion if those additional options pop up
    [15:57] <astron> whch options?
    [15:57] <astron> +i
    [15:58] <astron> dang it spelling
    [15:58] <Mirek2> You mean if "Heading 2" appeared once I used "Heading 1"?
    [15:58] <alexanderW> additional styles
    [15:58] <Mirek2> by "options"
    [15:58] <alexanderW> yes
    [15:58] <astron> okay.
    [15:58] <Mirek2> I don't think it's too confusing
    [15:59] <alexanderW> probably not
    [15:59] <Mirek2> applications have had contextual features for a long time -- Office has contextual tabs, LibreOffice has contextual toolbars, Gnome Shell has contextual workspaces, ...
    [15:59] <astron> don't think it's so confusing
    [16:00] <astron> still, we should at least limit it to 5 heading styles, because we want user to create good documents, not endlessly complicated ones
    [16:00] <Mirek2> btw, why "Ubuntu Templates"? Why can't we just work on application templates regardless of OS?
    [16:00] <astron> ubuntu want to hold some kind of template contest
    [16:01] <alexanderW> They will later replace the current templates in LibreOffice
    [16:01] <astron> http://sweetshark.livejournal.com/10155.html
    [16:02] <astron> sorry, you've been out of the discussion
    [16:02] <astron> (so far)
    [16:03] <Mirek2> ok, so it's not Ubuntu-only, then?
    [16:03] <Mirek2> why the Ubuntu label?
    [16:03] <astron> not really
    [16:03] <astron> i think they will even abstain from usign the ubuntu font
    [16:04] <astron> (which we dont ship upstream)
    [16:06] <astron> ubuntu want to ship it first
    [16:06] <astron> and ubuntu want their users to contribute
    [16:06] <astron> similar to their wallpaper contests i think
    [16:07] == Mirek2 [d5dcf47d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.220.244.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
    [16:08] <alexanderW> whoopsie
    [16:08] <astron> was that an accident..?
    [16:08] == Mirek2 [d5dcf47d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.220.244.125] has joined #libreoffice-design
    [16:08] <alexanderW> ah
    [16:08] <Mirek2> not sure what happened just now -- Firefox seems to have frozen up on me
    [16:09] <astron> okay
    [16:09] <Mirek2> what have I missed?
    [16:09] <alexanderW> nothing
    [16:09] <astron> so what did last see?
    [16:09] <Mirek2> the last message I could read is: "(so far)"
    [16:10] <astron> [16:03] <Mirek2> ok, so it's not Ubuntu-only, then? [16:03] <Mirek2> why the Ubuntu label? [16:03] <astron> not really [16:03] <astron> i think they will even abstain from usign the ubuntu font [16:04] <astron> (which we dont ship upstream) [16:06] <astron> ubuntu want to ship it first [16:06] <astron> and ubuntu want their users to contribute [16:06] <astron> similar to their wallpaper contests i think
    [16:10] <Mirek2> as for the open questions:
    [16:11] <Mirek2> would it be possible to have templates with both a 4:3 and a widescreen variant?
    [16:11] <alexanderW> thats another issue I've been thinking about for quite some time
    [16:11] <Mirek2> not sure I understand the necessary templates part -- wouldn't it be best to just ship with nice generic templates?
    [16:12] <Mirek2> the source drawings should definitely be uploaded too
    [16:12] <alexanderW> Currently, you can only set slideshow page sizes using either DIN or whatever standards or defined sizes in cm
    [16:12] <astron> we will need to coordinate to create a list of requirements
    [16:13] <astron> and i think there will be lots of things that will need to be improved in the templates later on.
    [16:13] <alexanderW> it would be nice if we one could select an aspect ratio, too. Currently, I need to detect my screen size using 'xrandr' and enter the correct data into the 'page' dialogue
    [16:14] <Mirek2> yeah
    [16:14] <Mirek2> btw, the Template and Extensions website needs some fixing up too
    [16:14] <astron> one of those is l10n which also includes paper sizes
    [16:14] <astron> @mirek2 oh it does
    [16:15] <astron> it so does
    [16:15] <alexanderW> If one could select the aspect ratio, all a template designer would need to do is provide background images with a rather high resolution
    [16:15] <astron> cool idea
    [16:15] <Mirek2> right
    [16:15] <Mirek2> how do master pages work in LibreOffice, btw?
    [16:16] <alexanderW> You can rearrange the basic elements
    [16:16] <astron> view > master > slide master
    [16:16] <astron> (if thats what you mean
    [16:16] <astron> )
    [16:16] <alexanderW> you can move the text boxes and define how text looks like
    [16:16] <astron> but if you mean how they relate to styles, it seems a bit entangeld
    [16:17] <astron> -el+le
    [16:18] <alexanderW> I think editing the sample text in a master page means editing the paragraph style, right?
    [16:19] <Mirek2> having just checked out master pages in LibreOffice, I have to say I'm utterly confused...
    [16:19] <alexanderW> ouch
    [16:19] <astron> @alex: yes
    [16:21] <Mirek2> how exactly do you make a slide use the second slide from the master slide page?
    [16:21] <astron> fun fact: yesterday night i had to fix up a presentation (deadline looming) and needed to insert a title slide with a different master ... i didn't find out how to do that [i ended up covering the whole slide with a white rectangle and started from scratch on top of that]
    [16:21] <alexanderW> simply click on that second master slide
    [16:21] <Mirek2> nevermind, I found it -- it's the slide design button
    [16:22] <alexanderW> Yes, or that pane on the right
    [16:22] <Mirek2> I always hide the pane -- doesn't work with my netbook
    [16:22] <astron> still, how do i make that it is applied for a single slide only?
    [16:22] <Mirek2> the slide design button works that way
    [16:23] <alexanderW> There's a button in the toolbar that lets you select a master slide to be applied to the current slide
    [16:23] <astron> oh
    [16:23] <alexanderW> apparently, that's not too obvious :/
    [16:24] <astron> yes
    [16:24] <astron> although the side pane has a context menu too, i just saw
    [16:25] <astron> ouch
    [16:25] <Mirek2> ouch
    [16:25] <Mirek2> the problem is that there are about 4 buttons concerning slide design
    [16:27] <alexanderW> I think the ones showing the styles could be dropped
    [16:27] <Mirek2> which one?
    [16:27] <alexanderW> And the same goes for the one allowing to add a page with a specific layout
    [16:27] <alexanderW> the nine squares
    [16:27] <alexanderW> with the hand
    [16:28] <astron> oh those squares represent selector buttons which represent styles
    [16:29] <alexanderW> ah!
    [16:29] <astron> in the industrial icon its still quite visible that those are buttons
    [16:29] <Mirek2> what use cases are there for the styles?
    [16:30] <alexanderW> Basically none
    [16:30] <astron> soemtimes you cant edit somethign usign the master page
    [16:30] <alexanderW> at least when I use Impress
    [16:30] <astron> (i think)
    [16:30] <alexanderW> what exactly?
    [16:31] <astron> Subtitle seems to not be present on the master (i think)
    [16:32] <astron> but do enlighten me if it is – im not using impress too often
    [16:33] <Mirek2> me neither, to be honest; I use Google Docs when I can :/
    [16:33] <astron> traitor ;)
    [16:34] <alexanderW> It only seems to be used when one applies the title page layout
    [16:34] <astron> ah okay
    [16:35] <Mirek2> :)
    [16:35] <alexanderW> I don't know whether it's an issue, but one cannot link a certain master page to a certain layout
    [16:35] <alexanderW> I had issues wrappin my mind around this when I started doing templates
    [16:36] <Mirek2> It seems like we all agree that Impress has a lot of UI issues -- how do you propose we tackle them?
    [16:37] <astron> impress also has undo/redo issues. and crashing issues.
    [16:37] <alexanderW> Maybe first create a list on the whiteboard overview page
    [16:37] <Mirek2> I'd hold off on creating a whiteboard before we define the issues we want to work on
    [16:38] <Mirek2> we could do that here now or on the mailing list
    [16:38] <alexanderW> I didn't meant to create those whiteboards already, but just list the issues
    [16:38] <astron> currently, i think there are enough whiteboards in need of some tlc, so i dont think its too productive to start ten new ones on impress
    [16:39] <Mirek2> I agree
    [16:39] <Mirek2> how should we go about approving and implementing the new Whiteboard template?
    [16:40] <Mirek2> Have a rich discussion on the mailing list followed by a vote?
    [16:40] <alexanderW> yes
    [16:40] <Mirek2> Then tweak the existing whiteboards to use the same structure?
    [16:40] <alexanderW> and then people can voluteer to apply the template
    [16:40] <astron> okay
    [16:41] <Mirek2> ok
    [16:41] <astron> before we wrap this up, does anyone else plan to be at the hackfest?
    [16:42] <Mirek2> now that we've had a discussion about Impress, it seems like we should do something about it
    [16:42] <Mirek2> not me
    [16:42] <alexanderW> Sorry, no
    [16:42] <astron> okay
    [16:42] <Mirek2> you?
    [16:42] <astron> yes.
    [16:43] <Mirek2> who wants to put this discussion up on the wiki?
    [16:43] <astron> ill do.
    (Some off-topic parts removed. – Astron)
    [16:49] <alexanderW> So, are we done for today?
    [16:49] <Mirek2> yeah, I think so
    [16:49] <astron> i guess we are.
    [16:50] <astron> okay, then, see you next week?
    [16:50] <Mirek2> yes
    [16:50] <alexanderW> Alright
    [16:50] <Mirek2> have you both answered the Doodle poll?
    [16:50] <alexanderW> ah, not yet
    [16:50] <astron> i havent so far..
    [16:50] <alexanderW> will do so later
    [16:50] <Mirek2> :D funny that you both cam
    [16:50] <Mirek2> came
    [16:51] <astron> stroke of luck
    [16:51] <alexanderW> probably
    [16:51] <astron> well, bye
    [16:51] <alexanderW> Have a great evening, guys
    [16:51] <alexanderW> bye
    [16:51] <Mirek2> you too
    [16:51] <Mirek2> bye