Design/Meetings/2012-05-05

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[15:53] <@npcdoom> hey mirek2, how much time is left till the meeting?
[15:53] <mirek2> hi everyone
[15:53] <mirek2> about 7 minutes
[15:54] <mirek2> who are you, might I ask?
[15:54] <@npcdoom> yeah, sorry, im the student thats gonna work on the template dialog
[15:54] <@npcdoom> for gsoc
[15:54] <@npcdoom> my name is rafael
[15:55] <mirek2> ok, I meant to contact you
[15:55] <mirek2> I couldn't find a contact anywhere
[15:55] <mirek2> have you seen the templates whiteboard?
[15:55] <mirek2> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Templates_and_documents_rework
[15:56] <@npcdoom> i took at it a few mins ago
[15:56] <@npcdoom> *i took a look a few mins ago
[15:56] <mirek2> what do you think of the scope?
[15:57] <mirek2> does it reflect your ideas about the dialog?
[15:57] <@npcdoom> yes
[15:57] <eagles0513875> hi mirek2
[15:57] <mirek2> hi
[15:57] <eagles0513875> can i ask you a question about GSOC and android work
[15:57] <mirek2> go ahead
[15:57] <@npcdoom> by the way, you should also add to be able to remove templates easily
[15:58] <mirek2> @npcdoom: you can edit the scope to your liking
[15:58] <eagles0513875> i have my project that i had started with something very basic that will run on an android device. would you like me to put a wiki page on how to import it into eclipse and get eclipse setup? and maybe do a wiki page to the README.cross file and the README.Android file that is in the codebase already?
[15:59] <eagles0513875> that way those can use my project and we can all work using the same project for the android work
[15:59] <mirek2> that's not really something for designers to figure out
[15:59] <mirek2> ask on the developer mailing list
[16:00] <eagles0513875> ok cuz I'm seeing a lot of chatter about design etc on that and i was wondering is all
[16:00] <mirek2> ok
[16:01] <mirek2> @npcdoom: we're designing for you, so it's really helpful if you edit the scope or the persona section on the whiteboard
[16:01] <eagles0513875> mirek2: will respond to those android items a bit later on this evening and add my suggestions
[16:02] <mirek2> @eagles: if you have a proposal, add it to the whiteboards
[16:02] <@npcdoom> mirek2: ok give me a few mins, but its just that small detail, and most proposals already take that into account
[16:02] <eagles0513875> mirek2: not really a graphic to show my idea but more textual suggestion to possibly whats there but will do that :)
[16:02] <mirek2> @eagles: proposals don't have to be graphical; they can just be text
[16:03] <eagles0513875> ok :)
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[16:05] <mirek2> @npcdoom: what do you think of the proposals?
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[16:06] <alexander> hi
[16:06] <Android272> Hiii :)
[16:06] <mirek2> hi
[16:06] == alexander has changed nick to Guest87771
[16:07] <Android272> took me a long time to find the website I use. I forgot what it was called.
[16:07] <mirek2> since we have the student behind the templates dialog here (npcdoom), we should start with that whiteboard
[16:08] <mirek2> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Templates_and_documents_rework
[16:08] <Android272> cool
[16:08] <Guest87771> Oh, nice :) Hi Rafael
[16:08] <mirek2> a few open questions I'd like to take care of first
[16:09] <Android272> ok
[16:09] <mirek2> a) Should the design be similar to what we'd plan for Android?
[16:09] <Android272> Are there templates for applications other than Writer, Calc and Impress?
[16:09] <mirek2> Should we support touch?
[16:09] <mirek2> @android: possibly Draw
[16:10] <Android272> Yes, data base desperately needs templates.
[16:11] <mirek2> I'm assuming you're sarcastic...
[16:11] <Android272> that program is so hard to work with, and templates would help ALOT
[16:11] <mirek2> what do you think about the questions I raised?
[16:11] <Guest87771> I think it doesn't need to be too similar, since the GUI will be rewritten in Java
[16:11] <mirek2> @android: are you sure you mean templates? don't you mean wizards?
[16:11] <Android272> yah,
[16:11] <Android272> both
[16:12] <Android272> sorry, I think that we should make it for touch, and templates and wizards.
[16:13] <Guest87771> wizards?
[16:13] <Android272> what do you mean though by touch? how would it be different for anything else? what are you thinking?
[16:14] <Guest87771> You cannot hover over something with a touch device
[16:14] <mirek2> hold on: about base templates: if base templates exist, then we should support them
[16:14] <Android272> for the database stuff ill have to consult my brother again. hes the one that told me about it. but hes not here so lets move on
[16:14] <Guest87771> and mostly a single tap replaces a double click
[16:14] <mirek2> and I believe they do exist
[16:15] <mirek2> @Alex: actually, a single tap replaces single click
[16:15] <mirek2> apps designed for touch don't use double-click
[16:15] <mirek2> brings me to question 2
[16:15] <Guest87771> In a classic interface it would be a double click
[16:15] <Android272> I know about the hover part, but what else would make it more touch friendly?
[16:15] <mirek2> should we support double-click?
[16:16] <Guest87771> I don't think so
[16:16] <mirek2> to be honest, I don't want double-click behavior
[16:16] <eagles0513875> mirek2: on android?
[16:16] <mirek2> no, on the desktop
[16:16] <mirek2> on the templates dialog
[16:16] <eagles0513875> mirek2: my 2 cents double click is a common standard
[16:17] <mirek2> a lot of UIs are moving away from double-click
[16:17] <Android272> Why people are used to double-clicking things to open them, its only on touch devices that we do not have that.
[16:17] <eagles0513875> Android272: not true
[16:17] <eagles0513875> gnome on linux is default single click
[16:17] <mirek2> actually, not yet, but getting there
[16:17] <mirek2> Gnome Documents use single click
[16:18] <Android272> ok well thats linux and I still can't run that so im not used to it.
[16:18] <mirek2> KDE's Dolphin uses single click
[16:18] <eagles0513875> mirek2: only recently has it gone to single click
[16:18] <mirek2> no web apps use single click, though
[16:18] <eagles0513875> but that can be changed in system settings according to the users preference
[16:18] <mirek2> case in point: Google Drive
[16:18] <Android272> for what? opening files, programs, a lot of things on windows is double click.
[16:18] <@npcdoom> well why would you want double click?
[16:19] <@npcdoom> first click will select the template to preview, and another click to use it
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[16:19] <Android272> im not apposed to it just trying to understand this, and saying that people may not like it on the windows side,
[16:19] <Guest87771> npcdoom: You mean to single clicks/taps?
[16:19] <Guest87771> *two
[16:20] <mirek2> @android: if you're a Google Docs user, it doesn't feel strange at all
[16:20] <eagles0513875> Android272: people on windows wont
[16:20] <@npcdoom> well i mean that double click/tap is rebundant
[16:20] <Android272> ok what ever.
[16:20] <eagles0513875> mirek2: i think we are all confused as to if we are talking about a desktop application web based or android here at least i am confused
[16:20] <mirek2> a lot of people actually have problems with double-click
[16:20] <mirek2> @eagles: desktop application
[16:21] <eagles0513875> mirek2: why not make that just look at a users system settings and preferences
[16:21] <mirek2> those don't cover double-click, afaik
[16:21] <Android272> so would a single click open it? or show a preview then another click would open it.
[16:21] <mirek2> look at the proposals on the wiki
[16:22] <mirek2> if you use google docs or drive, take a look at their thumbnails view
[16:22] <mirek2> it also uses single clik
[16:22] <mirek2> click
[16:23] <Android272> is the check box in linux? I think windows just recently made those available.
[16:23] <mirek2> what exactly do you mean?
[16:24] <mirek2> afaik, a check box is a UI element that's been around for ages...
[16:24] <@npcdoom> can a user select more than one template to use it??? or its to be able to manage several templates at once?
[16:25] <mirek2> to use what?
[16:25] <@npcdoom> in their document
[16:25] <@npcdoom> the template
[16:25] <Guest87771> @npcdoom: One can use one template, but for managing them it is possible to select more than one
[16:25] <mirek2> yes, exactly
[16:25] <Android272> yes check boxes have been around for a long time but not when selecting files. or maybe I just double click on everything and have missed it till just recently.
[16:26] <mirek2> here's what gnome plans to do
[16:26] <mirek2> http://jimmac.fedorapeople.org/gnome3/boxes/overlay-toolbar2/
[16:26] <mirek2> try the prototype
[16:27] <mirek2> single-click would launch in this case
[16:27] <@npcdoom> and how are we gonna handle the template preview??? at the moment only android272 proposal address that
[16:27] <mirek2> and there's a special selection mode
[16:27] <mirek2> @npcdoom: isn't the thumbnail preview sufficient?
[16:28] <Android272> hmm, I like it but the check boxes in the corners makes it known right away that you can select multiple templates
[16:28] <@npcdoom> mirek2 well thats only good if the template is just 1 page, what if the templates covers more than that? lets say like have 2 sections
[16:29] <Android272> yes, for the front page of the template but what about the rest of the doc
[16:29] <mirek2> btw, Apple's pages works similarly: http://www.impulsegamer.com/pc/iwork0905.jpg
[16:30] <mirek2> so does Word: http://cdn.chipchick.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Word_Template_Gallery.jpg
[16:30] <mirek2> do you think a lot of users will preview the different pages?
[16:30] <Android272> I would just like to view the rest of the pages.
[16:30] <Android272> idk
[16:31] <mirek2> if so, we could have arrows appear on hover below the thumbnail
[16:31] <@npcdoom> hard to say
[16:31] <mirek2> or something like that
[16:31] <Guest87771> hover?
[16:31] <mirek2> see https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:T-over.png
[16:31] <mirek2> there's blank space to the right of the title
[16:32] <mirek2> perhaps we could have arrows there?
[16:32] <mirek2> just brainstorming
[16:32] <@npcdoom> yeah i was thinking something like that too
[16:32] <Guest87771> What I mean is: We don't have hovering when using a touch device
[16:32] <mirek2> on touch devices, users could flick through the pages
[16:33] <Android272> that's fine with me, personally I do not like my mockup, just wanted to present it to the team.
[16:33] <mirek2> and select by long-pushing
[16:33] <mirek2> as they're used to
[16:33] <Android272> yah
[16:34] <mirek2> so... have we agreed on single-clicking the thumbnail to launch the template?
[16:34] <@npcdoom> y
[16:34] <Guest87771> It gives an idea how it would look like on a gnome desktop
[16:34] <Guest87771> yes
[16:34] <Android272> yes
[16:34] <mirek2> ok
[16:34] <mirek2> now, how should users be able to select files?
[16:35] <mirek2> with an overlay, Google Drive style?
[16:35] <mirek2> or with a selection mode, Gnome-style?
[16:35] <@npcdoom> whats an overlay?
[16:35] <mirek2> or with right-click, Windows 8-style?
[16:35] <Android272> google style. I like the gnome style but not sure people would find it reight away unless you use gnome.
[16:35] <Android272> *right
[16:35] <mirek2> whoops, didn't mean overlay
[16:36] <mirek2> meant with a checkbox that appears on hover
[16:36] <Android272> I still knew what you meant.
[16:36] <mirek2> ok
[16:36] <Android272> yes
[16:36] <@npcdoom> google style is???
[16:36] <mirek2> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:T-over.png
[16:37] <mirek2> checkbox on hover
[16:37] <mirek2> it might also extend to clicking the document title
[16:37] <Android272> yes
[16:37] <mirek2> my proposal extended it to the whole area below the thumbnail, including the title and the checkbox
[16:37] <@npcdoom> what about only just selecting the title, without the checkbox?
[16:38] <Android272> ?
[16:38] <@npcdoom> if you want to uncheck it, you would reclick the title
[16:38] <Android272> yes
[16:38] <mirek2> the checkbox is a good visual indicator that the user can click to select
[16:38] <Android272> but what if they click the title. rename?
[16:39] <mirek2> no, keep it for selection
[16:39] <Android272> ok
[16:39] <Android272> well at that point it would be selected
[16:40] <mirek2> the user could click within the checkbox or on the document title to select or deselect the thumbnail
[16:40] <Android272> he said click the title twice, once to select and the again.
[16:40] == mirek2 [d5dcf47d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.220.244.125]
[16:40] ==  realname : 213.220.244.125 - http://webchat.freenode.net
[16:40] ==  channels : #libreoffice-design
[16:40] ==  server   : rowling.freenode.net [Corvallis, OR, USA]
[16:40] ==  idle     : 0 days 0 hours 0 minutes 10 seconds [connected: Sat May 05 15:52:19 2012]
[16:40] == End of WHOIS
[16:40] <mirek2> @android: to deselect
[16:40] <Android272> yes
[16:40] <@npcdoom> mirek2 yes im ok with that, really straight foward
[16:40] <mirek2> alex, what do you think?
[16:41] <Android272> @mirek2 in https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:T-check.png would changing the name be under property's then?
[16:41] <mirek2> alex, are you there?
[16:42] <Guest87771> Yes,
[16:42] <@npcdoom> Android272, im guessing its in the part where it says edit
[16:42] <mirek2> @android: I guess.
[16:42] <Guest87771> I think checkboxes are neccessary
[16:42] <Android272> oh yah,
[16:43] <mirek2> @npcdoom: "Edit" would let you edit the template
[16:43] <Android272> with out making a document?
[16:43] <Android272> then you could save the template
[16:43] <mirek2> it would edit the original template file
[16:43] <Android272> ok
[16:43] <mirek2> not create a carbon copy, like templates do
[16:44] <Android272> so then what did we just agree on?
[16:44] <Android272> +what all
[16:44] <@npcdoom> on the de/select operation
[16:44] <mirek2> and on single click to launch
[16:44] <Android272> does that include touch?
[16:45] <@npcdoom> another thing, when we import templates from repository, how we gonna display them?
[16:45] <mirek2> @android: yes, single tap is just like single click
[16:45] <Guest87771> Maybe have a section
[16:45] <Guest87771> 'online templates'
[16:46] <Android272> whats a repository
[16:46] <mirek2> a storage space
[16:46] <Guest87771> The server where templates are saved
[16:46] <Android272> ok so the template website
[16:46] <mirek2> I don't really think we need to differentiate between online and offline templates
[16:47] <Guest87771> yes, but e.g. a company could set up their own repository
[16:47] <@npcdoom> could we just add a folder with the repository name???
[16:47] <Android272> in Word you can see what template you can download and what you have downloaded.
[16:47] <mirek2> that would be one solution
[16:48] <mirek2> @android: are the two separated visually?
[16:48] <Android272> in my mockup there is an icon to show where the template exist, https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Templates_preview.png
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[16:48] <mirek2> right
[16:48] <Android272> hold on ill open it
[16:49] <mirek2> is that what Word does?
[16:49] <mirek2> @npcdoom: I really like the idea of having a folder per repository
[16:49] <mirek2> that way, we wouldn't really even need a "Show online templates" button
[16:50] <Guest87771> reduces clutter, yes
[16:50] <@npcdoom> and we can use Android272 idea and add a cloud icon to it, to differentiate it, if its really needed
[16:50] <Android272> no,https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Templates_preview.png
[16:51] <Guest87771> ?
[16:51] == Guest87771 has changed nick to Alexander2
[16:51] <mirek2> I don't think it's needed if we have a special folder for online templates
[16:51] <Android272> word seperates the online and offline templates into different sections to the right
[16:52] <mirek2> hi michel
[16:52] <mirek2> would all of us agree, then, on having a separate "Online templates" folder?
[16:53] <Alexander2> Yes
[16:53] <Android272> I do not really like that, but its fine
[16:53] <Alexander2> Maybe a small icon on each template could indicate whether it has been downloaded. It it hasn't been, no icon is shown. This way the user knows whether it will be available if he goes offline
[16:54] <mirek2> @alex: I'd prefer it to be the other way around
[16:54] <Android272> why would it not show the clowd?
[16:54] <mirek2> a cloud icon for the ones in the cloud, no icon for the ones that are downloaded
[16:54] <Android272> *cloud wow
[16:54] <Alexander2> Yeah, seems to make more sense
[16:55] <mirek2> the downloaded icon would be misleading, as not all offline templates have been downloaded (some are authored by the user)
[16:55] <Android272> so then would the on line templates be like https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:T-fold.png
[16:55] <Alexander2> That way we still display the same information, but it is less cluttered
[16:55] <mirek2> @android: I imagine so
[16:56] <Android272> ok
[16:56] <mirek2> dragging a template from this folder could download it
[16:56] <mirek2> as this would be a special folder
[16:56] <Alexander2> The 'root' folder with an arrow?
[16:56] <Android272> thats not too intuitive. how would then know to do that?
[16:56] <@npcdoom> but you would need to drag it to another folder
[16:56] <@npcdoom> and what Android272 said
[16:57] <Alexander2> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Templatesanddocuments_5.png
[16:57] <mirek2> good question: how should we present folders?
[16:57] <Alexander2> The first drawing could show how it looks when browsing the repository
[16:57] <mirek2> as separate places: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Templatesanddocuments_5.png
[16:57] <mirek2> or as overlays: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:T-fold.png
[16:57] <Android272> click to preview then have a download button somewhere. just a preview like https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:FileViewerDocument.png
[16:58] <Alexander2> we could replace the Arrow with a symbol for 'Save'
[16:58] <@npcdoom> maybe just ask user where it wants to download it?
[16:58] <mirek2> (I chose overlays for my proposal, as it only allows one-level-deep folders and as it makes dragging and dropping from a folder simple)
[16:58] <Alexander2> I imagine he wants the template to be shown in the dialog
[16:58] <Android272> I would not want to download something with out being able to preview it first.
[16:58] <Alexander2> as any other template
[16:59] <mirek2> hold on -- one thing at a time
[16:59] <@npcdoom> Android when you browse the templates, the thumbnails are the preview
[16:59] <mirek2> right
[16:59] <mirek2> so how should we present folders?
[16:59] <Android272> I know, but what about a bigger preview?
[17:00] <Android272> just for online templates
[17:00] <mirek2> a thumbnail in a sidebar is about as big as a thumbnail in the browser
[17:00] <mirek2> if the user wanted to see bigger thumbnails, he would simply zoom in
[17:01] <Alexander2> I think that'd be a bit overwhelming
[17:02] <Android272> yah a bit
[17:02] <mirek2> ok
[17:02] <@npcdoom> so at most 1 level deep?
[17:02] <Android272> yes
[17:02] <@npcdoom> ok
[17:03] <mirek2> I would like folders to be at most 1-level deep, yes
[17:03] <mirek2> alex, your thoughts?
[17:03] <Alexander2> agree
[17:03] <mirek2> alright
[17:04] <mirek2> should folders be presented as overlays or as separate places?
[17:04] <mirek2> compare https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Templatesanddocuments_5.png and https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:T-fold.png
[17:04] <Alexander2> Showing them as seperate places would simplify the UI
[17:04] <Android272> I like the overlay
[17:05] <mirek2> I think the overlay might be simpler
[17:06] <mirek2> the user knows why he can't create a folder within a folder that way
[17:06] <Android272> yah
[17:06] <mirek2> (an overlay on an overlay is intuitively just too much)
[17:06] <mirek2> it's also easier to drag files from
[17:07] <Android272> what if they have a lot of files in there?
[17:07] <mirek2> and it's also easier to leave the overlay by tapping elsewhere
[17:07] <Android272> or by the arrow in the top left corner?
[17:07] <mirek2> right
[17:07] <Alexander2> How hard would it be to implement that?
[17:08] <Android272> so then what about my previous qestion
[17:08] <Android272> ?
[17:08] <mirek2> hold, lets agree on this first
[17:08] <Android272> what?
[17:08] <Alexander2> The overlay
[17:08] <mirek2> rafael, what do you think?
[17:08] <@npcdoom> fine by me
[17:09] <mirek2> alright
[17:09] <Android272> what if they have a lot of files in there? how will they drag them out, should there be a different way to download them?
[17:09] <mirek2> yes
[17:10] <Alexander2> they could select several and drag them
[17:10] <Android272> to what?
[17:10] <mirek2> selecting an online template should offer you a "Download" button
[17:10] <mirek2> on the toolbar
[17:10] <@npcdoom> ^
[17:11] <mirek2> theoretically, we could also have a "Share" button for offline templates
[17:11] <mirek2> if users wanted to share their templates
[17:11] <Android272> not the question, what if I want to drag the top template out to the bottom of the of a long list?
[17:11] <@npcdoom> mirek2 i think that goes out of scope for the limited time i got, maybe after gsoc we could work on that feature
[17:12] <Android272> then they would use some site/email them?
[17:12] <mirek2> @npcdoom: yes, i'm just brainstorming
[17:12] <Alexander2> Maybe the overlay could only cover the top 2/3 of the screen
[17:12] <mirek2> @android: dragging would be used only to move to folders, not to reorder the items within a folder
[17:12] <@npcdoom> well usually pages already got options  to upload templates to their site anyway
[17:12] <Alexander2> then one could simply drag the templates
[17:13] <Android272> I did not say that at all
[17:13] <mirek2> @npcdoom: right
[17:14] <mirek2> @android: what were you saying?
[17:14] <Android272> so you could create a document then upload it to the website with in writer?
[17:15] <Android272> do we still think that you should be able to drag the template out of the online folder to download it.
[17:15] <mirek2> @android: just ignore what I said
[17:15] <Alexander2> I think that's currently outside the scope
[17:15] <mirek2> @android: yes, I think so
[17:15] <Alexander2> @Android: Dragging, yes
[17:15] <Android272> ok then hold on
[17:15] <Alexander2> I was referring to the upload feature
[17:16] <Android272> if there are a lot of template... never mind I like the 2/3 of the screen thing.
[17:17] <Android272> I saw it being hard to drag them out if there was a lot of them
[17:17] <@npcdoom> its still not clear to me, when you got lots of them how would you drag them to root folder
[17:17] <mirek2> we could increase the margins of the overlay
[17:18] <mirek2> @npcdoom: select a bunch, drag them out of the overlay
[17:18] <mirek2> how about we add designing the overlay to our tasks for next week?
[17:19] <mirek2> determining the size and the look and all?
[17:19] <@npcdoom> can u make a small drawing?? because i really dont see it xD
[17:19] <Alexander2> the upper two thirds would show the content of the repository, the lower third would show the local templates
[17:19] <@npcdoom> ohh
[17:19] <Alexander2> I can do so
[17:19] <Alexander2> One minute
[17:19] <mirek2> @rafael: I just want to check -- are all of the proposals within scope?
[17:19] <mirek2> is an overlay within scope?
[17:19] <mirek2> would it be hard to implement?
[17:20] <@npcdoom> ill have to talk to cedric
[17:20] <@npcdoom> but i think its doable
[17:20] <Android272> I think so?
[17:20] <mirek2> ok
[17:20] <@npcdoom> if we get to agree on the design before 21st
[17:20] <Android272> wait the gsc scope?
[17:20] <@npcdoom> yes
[17:21] <mirek2> yes
[17:21] <Android272> then I do not know
[17:21] <mirek2> also, how free can we be with the design?
[17:22] <mirek2> I understand that VCL has some limitations...
[17:22] <Android272> Mirek are you keeping track of what we agree on?
[17:22] <@npcdoom> well mainly atm within VCL limitations because we got limited time
[17:22] <@npcdoom> but i think what we have done is doable with vlc
[17:22] <mirek2> what are the vcl limitations?
[17:23] <mirek2> ok
[17:23] <Android272> can we make a dumb down version like Ubuntu 2D?
[17:23] <mirek2> that's a whole different matter
[17:23] <Android272> ok
[17:23] <mirek2> we're not really talking about processing power+animations+...
[17:24] <Alexander2> http://ubuntuone.com/522rhjtDLt0NIsW0cS3s37
[17:24] <Android272> cool
[17:25] <mirek2> @alex: I think it's a bit too much
[17:25] <mirek2> all we really need is a sliver of space
[17:25] <mirek2> to drag to
[17:25] <Android272> I like the fade
[17:25] <mirek2> plus even if we don't have that sliver of space, the user can still use the "Move to folder" button
[17:25] <Alexander2> ah
[17:26] <Android272> so like half a template preview?
[17:26] <Android272> the sliver
[17:26] <mirek2> yeah, or just a fourth
[17:28] <mirek2> anyway, I'd like to talk about what to design for next week
[17:28] <Android272> ok
[17:28] <mirek2> rafael, what do you expect to implement?
[17:28] <mirek2> what features should we design for?
[17:29] <mirek2> for example, should we design for search?
[17:29] <@npcdoom> well basic handling of templates
[17:29] <@npcdoom> add,remove, search
[17:29] <mirek2> + folders?
[17:29] <@npcdoom> and download from repository
[17:29] <@npcdoom> and folders
[17:29] <@npcdoom> but taking into account on what we agreed today

[some lines missing]

[17:30] <@npcdoom> and reuse existing widgets
[17:31] <mirek2_> how simple should search be?
[17:31] <Alexander2> A src file? I think Coalan McNamara wanted to convert these to glade files
[17:31] <@npcdoom> Alexander2, yes, caolan work with glade havent been merged yet i think
[17:32] <Alexander2> So converting the dialog would be done afterwards?
[17:32] <@npcdoom> y
[17:32] <Alexander2> OK
[17:32] <@npcdoom> about search well will have to agree on what would we able to let the user search
[17:32] <mirek2_> would search be filtered as on https://templates.libreoffice.org/template-center ?
[17:32] <mirek2_> nevermind, I see that that's also simple
[17:32] <@npcdoom> i been thinking like by name and tags
[17:33] <mirek2_> (I'm not really feeling well today, ignore me if I say random things. :) )
[17:33] <Alexander2> :)
[17:33] <@npcdoom> but just having some type of input bar will be fine
[17:33] == mirek2 [d5dcf47d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.220.244.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
[17:33] <mirek2_> ok
[17:33] <Alexander2> Would the tags be saved in some additional xml file or within the document
[17:33] <Alexander2> ?
[17:33] <@npcdoom> yes
[17:34] <Alexander2> alright
[17:34] <@npcdoom> tags will be saved where still not defined yet
[17:34] <mirek2_> should we design for tag editing as well?
[17:34] <mirek2_> should we design a simple "Properties" dialog?
[17:34] <@npcdoom> what you got in mind for properties?
[17:34] <mirek2_> showing the name, the author, allowing rename and tag editing, etc.?
[17:35] <@npcdoom> i think those stuff should be left for the repository to handle it
[17:35] <mirek2_> ok
[17:36] <@npcdoom> but name and author could be displayed when browsing the templates
[17:36] <mirek2_> yes
[17:36] <mirek2_> is there anything that you find missing the proposals you'd like us to design?
[17:36] <@npcdoom> repository management
[17:37] <mirek2_> adding/removing repositories?
[17:37] <@npcdoom> like to add/remove repositories to download templates
[17:37] <mirek2_> how does that work? does the user input an HTML address?
[17:37] <@npcdoom> y
[17:37] <mirek2_> or would there be a list of available repositories to use?
[17:37] <mirek2_> or both?
[17:38] <@npcdoom> well probably will only have the libreoffice one as default
[17:38] <@npcdoom> but user should be able to add/remove other repos too
[17:38] <mirek2_> right
[17:38] <Alexander2> Cedric proposed to simply add another entry to the 'paths' page in the settings window
[17:39] <mirek2_> no, let's not use the options dialog, please
[17:39] <Android272> would this be under the options dialog or in the template dialog?
[17:39] <mirek2_> I'd prefer to have a separate dialog accessible from the templates dialog
[17:39] <Alexander2> I know it's horrible, but I think we should spred the options across the whole UI
[17:39] <Alexander2> *shouldn't
[17:40] <Android272> will the template dialog be opened once the user opens LibreOffice or a new document?
[17:40] <@npcdoom> i think setting window is the best place too, but let me talk to cedric
[17:40] <mirek2_> but you don't really need to access the template repository options unless you're within the templates dialog
[17:40] <mirek2_> and you don't need the other LibreOffice options when you're in the templates dialog
[17:40] <@npcdoom> true
[17:40] <Alexander2> But this could be said about most options
[17:41] <mirek2_> what do you mean?
[17:41] <mirek2_> most options do apply to the current document window?
[17:41] <@npcdoom> mirek2_ well design the repo dialog and later we can select where to add it, as a new dialog or in the setting windows
[17:41] <Alexander2> It think that's just moving the issuesomewhere else
[17:42] <mirek2_> the problem is, though, that the dialog will be different depending on whether it's a stand-alone dialog or a setting pane
[17:42] <Android272> we just need to remake the options dialog. if it was more like https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Mockupoptions.png would it be ok?
[17:42] <mirek2_> I still wouldn't agree
[17:42] <@npcdoom> mirek2_ i think the best place is in the setting page
[17:42] <@npcdoom> but it seem not everyone agrees on that
[17:43] <@npcdoom> and i know the setting dialog is fucked up xD
[17:43] <mirek2_> I just don't think it makes contextual sense?
[17:43] <mirek2_> why should the user have to wade through the whole options dialog when all he wants is template options
[17:43] <@npcdoom> well if i wanted to change my global settings thats the place i would go
[17:43] <Android272> it dose not have to, besides you could just open directly to the options dialog where these options are
[17:44] <mirek2_> when you're within the template dialog, you really don't need Writer or Calc settings
[17:44] <Alexander2> But how often would one access that option?
[17:44] <@npcdoom> not much
[17:44] <Alexander2> Once, twice?
[17:45] <Android272> how many repositories will there be besides our site?
[17:45] <mirek2_> if you look at how Google works, for example, they have a settings page per service
[17:45] <Alexander2> by default no other one
[17:45] <mirek2_> like https://www.google.cz/preferences?hl=en
[17:45] <mirek2_> and then they have a settings page that applies to all their services
[17:46] <@npcdoom> well on the setting page would be something like Libreoffice->Template Repositories
[17:46] <mirek2_> with only settings that make sense to set for all services
[17:46] <mirek2_> @npcdoom: I understand, but it still seems more appropriate to have a separate dialog for that
[17:47] <mirek2_> I just feel like we dump all the settings into the Settings dialog when we don't need to
[17:48] <mirek2_> and it's not really user-friendly
[17:48] <mirek2_> we could have a separate settings dialog for the template browser, for Writer, for Calc, and for global settings
[17:48] <Alexander2> The alternative would be to have a settings button for everything across the whole GUI
[17:49] <mirek2_> that's what we have now
[17:49] <@npcdoom> i guess will have to vote about it
[17:49] <Android272> what about this  https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Mockupoptions.png
[17:49] <Android272> ?
[17:50] <Alexander2> I personally like that one
[17:50] <mirek2_> again, I insists: why would I need to edit my Base preferences if I'm working in Writer?
[17:50] <Android272> so do I
[17:50] <mirek2_> all I need to see is the global preferences (if I want to set something for all the modules) and the Writer preferences
[17:51] <mirek2_> (that said, the dialog in the mockup is much better than what we currently have)
[17:51] <Android272> when I edit the options I like to get all of it out of the way at the begenning then never touch them again. besides if you don't want to edit the base setting then don't click on the base button
[17:52] <@npcdoom> mirek2_ well the repo thing is more a bonus, since at the moment is more important getting the base stuff working and we can later decide and work on the repository management
[17:52] <Alexander2> It's similar to the KDE options window, Gnome Settings and the Win 8 settings hub
[17:52] <@npcdoom> so lets put that on hold then
[17:52] <mirek2_> alright
[17:52] <Alexander2> ok
[17:52] <@npcdoom> its not really important
[17:53] <Android272> is the template dialog all we are talking about today? we have three more
[17:53] <mirek2_> are there any other problems that we need to work on?
[17:53] <mirek2_> @android: hold on, we'll get to the others
[17:53] <@npcdoom> not that i know off
[17:53] <@npcdoom> i think we covered the base stuff we need
[17:54] <mirek2_> ok
[17:54] <Android272> did we cover all the Open Points?
[17:54] <mirek2_> cedric answered those already
[17:54] <mirek2_> I believe we can move onto another whiteboard
[17:54] <Android272> ok
[17:55] <mirek2_> rafael, you can stay with us if you'd like, but I don't think it will be relevant to you
[17:56] <mirek2_> let's look at the Android file manager
[17:56] <mirek2_> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/File_Manager
[17:56] <mirek2_> I believe that that manager should work just like the templates dialog
[17:56] <Alexander2> How would that work?
[17:57] <Alexander2> Does one have access to a normal linux filesystem?
[17:57] <mirek2_> i.e. overlay folders, same layout, same selection mechanism
[17:57] <mirek2_> @alex: I'm on Linux right now
[17:57] <Alexander2> Me, too
[17:57] <Alexander2> What I mean is the file access on Android
[17:58] <mirek2_> nope
[17:58] <mirek2_> although there are some file browser applications for that purpose
[17:58] <mirek2_> I don't think that's what we want, though
[17:58] <@npcdoom> ok, so whats left is defining the look of the dialog?
[17:59] <mirek2_> right
[17:59] <Alexander2> the template dialog?
[17:59] <mirek2_> yes
[17:59] <mirek2_> we'll take next week to do that
[17:59] <@npcdoom> ok
[17:59] <@npcdoom> thanks for all guys
[17:59] == npcdoom [~npcdoom@gugve/developer/npcdoom] has left #libreoffice-design ["Leaving"]
[17:59] <mirek2_> thank you
[17:59] <Alexander2> Thanks
[18:00] <mirek2_> back to android
[18:00] <Alexander2> yes
[18:00] <Alexander2> Let's say I download a file on android, how do I open the odt?
[18:01] <mirek2_> I believe you get a choice of applications to open it with
[18:01] <mirek2_> I'm not sure, though...
[18:01] <mirek2_> andrew, do you know?
[18:02] <Android272> we could also use other services such as ubuntu one and drop box. I think you can just see what is on the phone/tablet though.
[18:04] <mirek2_> do you think we should have a consistent UI across ports (desktop, web, Android), only with tweaks to comply with the respective HIGs?
[18:04] <Android272> I just opened a document viewer on my phone and it seems to know where the documents are held.
[18:04] <Android272> what do you mean
[18:05] <Android272> I thought that was obvious but maybe I do not understand
[18:05] <mirek2_> compare https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Temps.png and https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Files-mobile.png
[18:05] <Alexander2> I think the UI should be similar where it makes sense
[18:05] <mirek2_> alright
[18:06] <mirek2_> and what about the file manager vs. template manager?
[18:06] <mirek2_> should the UIs there be similar as well?
[18:06] <Alexander2> yes
[18:07] <Android272> yes, but in both you have the different programs. in my https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:FileManager_Templates.png it would be more like the template dialog we just made.
[18:07] <Alexander2> somhow your mockup looks a bit like a mixture of windows 8 and Ambiance
[18:07] <mirek2_> different programs?
[18:07] <mirek2_> @alex: I tried to use color and typography
[18:08] <mirek2_> and keep it simple
[18:08] <mirek2_> I assume you mean https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/1/1f/Temps.p ng
[18:09] <Android272> the thing is in your mock up you see both docs and templates, so you can create docs with the bottom bar, were as in the template dialog you can not do this. but in my mockup you can not create a doc in the template part
[18:09] <Alexander2> yes
[18:09] <mirek2_> @android: actually, I haven't made the template part of the proposal yet
[18:10] <Android272> oh, well then when you seperate them I think that it would look the same.
[18:10] <mirek2_> basically, the Template button in my proposal would move you to a Template "dialog"
[18:10] <mirek2_> the bottom toolbar would show the "Import templates" button and the "Show templates" button, just like https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/1/1f/Temps.p ng
[18:11] <mirek2_> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/1/1f/Temps.png
[18:11] <Android272> where as mine you just swipe to the next one or tap the word.
[18:11] <mirek2_> right
[18:11] <mirek2_> I chose to go with a separate space for templates because I wanted to avoid having 2 tab bars
[18:12] <mirek2_> which I think might feel a bit strange, especially on the desktop
[18:12] <Android272> so then would we change the desktop template dialog to conform to android
[18:12] <Alexander2> Why?
[18:13] <Android272> with the import and online at the bottom
[18:13] <mirek2_> @android: how? why would it need to be changed?
[18:13] <mirek2_> no
[18:13] <Android272> or the reverse
[18:13] <Alexander2> On the desktop we have vcl with a theme integration. But on android we'd have a native UI, right?
[18:13] <mirek2_> the HIG for most desktop OSs asks for a toolbar at the top
[18:14] <mirek2_> the Android HIG has one toolbar (with tabs) at the top and optionally another toolbar at the bottom
[18:14] <Alexander2> completely seperate from what is being coded GUI-wise on the desktop
[18:15] <mirek2_> yeah, but, as I said earlier, we do want the two to feel alike, though conform to the HIG of their platform
[18:15] <Alexander2> yes
[18:16] <Android272> ok
[18:16] <mirek2_> so how do we want to present templates, then?
[18:16] <mirek2_> in a second tab bar?
[18:16] <mirek2_> as a special folder?
[18:17] <mirek2_> (one that doesn't open as an overlay)
[18:17] <mirek2_> what do you think?
[18:17] <Android272> folders is fine.
[18:18] <Alexander2> maybe have a drop-down menu
[18:18] <mirek2_> where?
[18:18] <mirek2_> what for?
[18:18] <Alexander2> Maybe in this view: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Files-mobile.png
[18:18] <mirek2_> ok
[18:18] <mirek2_> where would it be, though?
[18:18] <Alexander2> To choose between showing documents and tempolates
[18:18] <mirek2_> would it fit?
[18:19] <Alexander2> I hope so
[18:19] <Alexander2> I would make a second view unneccesary
[18:19] <mirek2_> keep in mind that we might want to have a file manager for the desktop, too, down the line
[18:19] <Alexander2> Why?
[18:19] <mirek2_> to manage files :)
[18:19] <mirek2_> especially useful when you sync files
[18:20] <Alexander2> Shouldn't that be up to the OS?
[18:20] <mirek2_> which I assume will happen once we have the online port and collaboration features
[18:20] <Alexander2> each implements it differently
[18:20] <mirek2_> what do you mean?
[18:20] <Android272> why don't we just have the templates appear when you create the document?
[18:21] <Alexander2> e.g. let users use Gnome documents on Gnome, etc...
[18:21] <Alexander2> @Android: I think that would be nice
[18:21] <Android272> yes but in windows or mac we do not have this.
[18:21] <mirek2_> @andrew: because the user might want to manage their templates, not just create a document with them
[18:21] <Android272> nor does ubuntu unity
[18:21] <Alexander2> AFAIK, Aplle slowly moves away from an obvious file system, too
[18:22] <mirek2_> even if we choose not to have a file browser on the desktop, we'll still need it on the web port
[18:22] <mirek2_> which will adhere to similar design principles as the desktop app
[18:23] <Alexander2> similar?
[18:23] <Android272> the file browser is a must on all ports
[18:23] <Alexander2> It's just LibreOffice for the desktop with the broadway rendering backend
[18:23] <mirek2_> exactly
[18:23] <Alexander2> So it'd be the same
[18:23] <mirek2_> perhaps
[18:24] <mirek2_> developers might decide to not code a file manager for the desktop
[18:24] <mirek2_> and there might be a separate HTML5 manager
[18:24] <mirek2_> theoretically
[18:24] <Android272> so then what are we deciding with the templates?
[18:24] <mirek2_> I don't know what the actual plans are
[18:24] <Alexander2> LibreOffice Online run on Linux and relies on gtk, right?
[18:24] <mirek2_> exactly
[18:25] <mirek2_> @alex: I think so
[18:25] <Alexander2> so we could reuse Gnome documents
[18:25] <Alexander2> and avoid a duplication of effort
[18:25] <mirek2_> I think we already plan to code a file manager for android ourselves
[18:25] <mirek2_> in C++
[18:25] <mirek2_> so we'll probably use that code
[18:26] <Android272> but what about windows and mac will it be able to be used there?
[18:26] <mirek2_> of course
[18:26] <mirek2_> LibreOffice is cross-platform
[18:26] <Android272> no with the gnome documents
[18:27] <mirek2_> we'd have to port it, I believe
[18:27] <Android272> ok
[18:27] <mirek2_> anyway, we're getting way off track
[18:27] <Android272> so then a folder with the templates?
[18:28] <Alexander2> in the android UI?
[18:28] <mirek2_> should we take next week to figure out all the ways we could present templates?
[18:28] <mirek2_> btw, in my original proposal, I had a templates button in the toolbar, which is another option
[18:28] <mirek2_> http://clickortap.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/files1.png
[18:29] <mirek2_> what do you think -- should we take next week to figure it out?
[18:29] <Android272> hmm, no I like the folder
[18:29] <mirek2_> alex?
[18:29] <Alexander2> why a folder - IMO, it is something seperate
[18:30] <Alexander2> yes
[18:30] <Android272> that makes me thing that you crate a doc with a template and the others would just be a blank doc, not that you could edit them there.
[18:30] <Android272> yes
[18:31] <mirek2_> having it appear as a folder has the added bonus that the user can drag a document to it to create a template out of a file
[18:31] <mirek2_> he can't drag a template back (as the template dialog is separate), but he can create a document based on that template and just save that document
[18:32] <mirek2_> I would like to visually distinguish it more, though
[18:32] <Android272> could we have a back to root folder for that?
[18:32] <mirek2_> that's what the icon in the top left corner is for
[18:33] <mirek2_> http://developer.android.com/design/patterns/navigation.html
[18:33] <Android272> no some where for them to place the template
[18:34] <mirek2_> but why would the user want to create a document out of a template?
[18:34] <mirek2_> if he wanted to do that, he would just use a template to create a document
[18:35] <Android272> I thought thats what we were talking about I don't know why they would do that
[18:35] <mirek2_> I'm saying that that's the default behavior for templates
[18:36] <mirek2_> you don't need an additional place to drag templates
[18:36] <mirek2_> to create a document
[18:36] <Android272> ok
[18:36] <mirek2_> alex, what do you think about the presentation of Templates as a "folder"?
[18:37] <mirek2_> though it would be visually differentiated from a normal folder
[18:37] <Alexander2> hm
[18:37] <Alexander2> I don't see the neccessity
[18:38] <mirek2_> it's not a necessity
[18:38] <mirek2_> but it works well, in my view, as:
[18:38] <mirek2_> it does not clutter up the toolbars
[18:38] <mirek2_> (where we don't really have much space)
[18:38] <mirek2_> and it allows the user to drag files to the "folder" to create templates easily
[18:39] <mirek2_> (the original files would be preserved, the created template would be a copy of the file)
[18:39] <Alexander2> Yeah, alright
[18:39] <mirek2_> so yes on the folder thing?
[18:40] <Alexander2> yes
[18:40] <mirek2_> we'll take next week to brainstorm on ways to differentiate it visually
[18:40] <Android272> yes
[18:40] <mirek2_> from normal folders
[18:40] <Alexander2> Maybe llike a blueprint
[18:40] <mirek2_> perhaps
[18:41] <Android272> that sounds good
[18:41] <mirek2_> though right now LibreOffice uses the "notebook page" metaphor
[18:41] <mirek2_> in its icons
[18:41] <Android272> why?
[18:41] <Android272> I do not get the metaphor
[18:42] <mirek2_> all notebook pages look the same, essentially
[18:42] <Android272> ooook
[18:42] <Alexander2> Here's a blueprint: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Logo_Template_Extension_Repository.png
[18:42] <mirek2_> I guess that's what they were going for
[18:43] <mirek2_> @alex: looks good
[18:43] <mirek2_> though I'd change the "T" to an "A"
[18:43] <Alexander2> the puzzle pieze would need to be removed
[18:43] <Android272> that looks like a blue print to me
[18:43] <mirek2_> as we want the icon to be international
[18:43] <mirek2_> or maybe not use any letters at all
[18:44] <Alexander2> Does it fit into the Android design?
[18:44] <Android272> we could use LibreOffice and some scrpbls
[18:44] <Alexander2> ?
[18:44] <Android272> +i
[18:44] <mirek2_> huh?
[18:44] <Alexander2> scrpbls?
[18:44] <Android272> sorry
[18:44] <Android272> scribbles
[18:45] <mirek2_> let's just take next week to submit proposals for that
[18:45] <mirek2_> and just use this chat to figure out what exactly we need to get done next week
[18:45] <Android272> ok
[18:46] <mirek2_> is there anything important that is missing from https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/File_Manager ?
[18:46] <mirek2_> or anything where our proposals clash, besides the presentation of Templates?
[18:46] <Android272> not really
[18:47] <mirek2_> as for the bottom row on https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:FileManager_small.png
[18:47] <Android272> what about it?
[18:48] <mirek2_> I'd prefer to have a standard toolbar row
[18:48] <Android272> which is?
[18:48] <mirek2_> buttons with icons+text aligned to the left
[18:49] <mirek2_> an overflow menu on the right if the buttons don't fit
[18:49] <mirek2_> the text labels get hidden when there's not enough space to show them
[18:49] <Android272> I did that mainly to not look exactly like your proposal
[18:49] <mirek2_> alright
[18:50] <mirek2_> about https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/File_Viewer
[18:50] <mirek2_> I really don't know how to tackle it
[18:50] <mirek2_> it's such a wide-reaching whiteboard
[18:50] <Android272> ok
[18:51] <Android272> show document... check.... what else is there?
[18:51] <mirek2_> obviously, our proposals are quite different from each other
[18:51] <mirek2_> @android: different presentation of different filetypes
[18:51] <mirek2_> different views per filetype, perhaps
[18:52] <mirek2_> there may be some differences between landscape and portrait mode
[18:52] <mirek2_> navigator
[18:52] <mirek2_> presentation of notes
[18:52] <mirek2_> (both presenter notes and editor comments)
[18:53] <Alexander2> zoom?
[18:53] <Android272> ahhh, ok
[18:53] <mirek2_> zoom too, but that typically doesn't need to be designed for
[18:54] <Alexander2> pinch to zoom?
[18:54] <mirek2_> yes
[18:55] <Alexander2> I've got two completely unrelated questions
[18:55] <mirek2_> yes?
[18:55] <Alexander2> Regarding our icon set:
[18:56] <Alexander2> We included a new save icon, was that relicensed?
[18:56] <mirek2_> where?
[18:56] <Android272> I think so
[18:56] <Alexander2> The one showing a cabinet
[18:56] <mirek2_> I'm not sure
[18:56] <Android272> I think so, I have it in my LibreOffice
[18:57] <Android272> I did not change it
[18:57] <mirek2_> and your other question?
[18:57] <Alexander2> The Tango Icon theme for Gnome looks far superior to what we currently have and covers many uses
[18:57] <Alexander2> ^ That belongs to the first one.
[18:58] <mirek2_> I agree with you
[18:58] <Alexander2> It is licensed under LGPL and Creative commons.
[18:58] <mirek2_> yes
[18:58] <Alexander2> It would be nice if we could use these and create the missing icons ourselves
[18:58] <mirek2_> missing icons?
[18:59] <mirek2_> you're talking about the desktop version, right?
[18:59] <Alexander2> Those that are not included in the Gnome Tango Icon theme
[18:59] <Alexander2> Yes
[18:59] <mirek2_> I'd just use the ones we currently have for the missing icons
[18:59] <mirek2_> perhaps tweak them to look better
[18:59] <Alexander2> It seems that the falat icon set was postponed and Astron worked on improving the tango set
[19:00] <mirek2_> yes
[19:01] <Alexander2> and slowly replace the old icons, which are not in the Gnome icon theme with new ones adhering to the guidelines
[19:01] <mirek2_> the gnome guidelines?
[19:01] <Alexander2> Tango
[19:02] <mirek2_> but the current icons are tango icons, no?
[19:03] <Alexander2> But I guess they all were created in-house
[19:03] <mirek2_> yeah, I think so
[19:03] <Alexander2> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Document_Themes.png
[19:04] <mirek2_> I definitely agree with replacing the icons where Gnome has a better replacement
[19:04] <Alexander2> An example
[19:04] <mirek2_> I agree -- I prefer the Gnome icons are better
[19:05] <mirek2_> except for the bold, italic, and underline icons -- I prefer our blue ones there
[19:05] <Alexander2> because they are lower case?
[19:06] <mirek2_> that, plus I prefer the blue color to the black
[19:06] <Alexander2> I see
[19:07] <mirek2_> but I wouldn't be squarely against the black icons
[19:07] <mirek2_> feel free to push the developers to include those icons
[19:08] <Alexander2> I think I'll simply ask un ux-advice how the licensing stuff affects a potential move to these icons first. We can discuss the details on our mailing list
[19:08] <mirek2_> in any case, can we get back to the whiteboards?
[19:08] <Alexander2> yes
[19:08] <Alexander2> the remote control
[19:09] <mirek2_> yes
[19:09] <mirek2_> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Impress_remote
[19:09] <mirek2_> all the proposals are quite different
[19:09] <Alexander2> who is mahfiaz?
[19:10] <mirek2_> don't know
[19:11] <mirek2_> Android, what are the red dots in your proposal? https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Remote.png
[19:12] <Android272> the different slides. when the big one is over it you are at the next slide.
[19:12] <Alexander2> why are the distances between them different?
[19:12] <mirek2_> does it work like a timeline as well?
[19:12] <Android272> they are at different times. some slides are longer then others
[19:13] <Android272> as in can you manualy slide it. I guess
[19:13] <Alexander2> So these would only be shown if the slides change automatically?
[19:14] <mirek2_> andrew?
[19:14] <Android272> I had a thought that it would be distributed equally if on click, but then I thought some slides are still longer then others
[19:15] <Android272> it just shows you where the next slide starts
[19:15] <mirek2_> you can't judge a slide by the length of its text
[19:15] <Android272> or when I should say
[19:15] <mirek2_> I don't understand -- if all slides are on click, are the dots not distributed equally?
[19:16] <Android272> you can on how long it takes to transition it, and how many steps there are in the slide.
[19:16] <mirek2_> by steps, do you mean animations, or do you mean bullets?
[19:16] <Android272> I don't know, I did not like it. it would just jump to the next dot, when you got to the next slide
[19:17] <Alexander2> YOu're already showing the 1/6
[19:17] <Alexander2> I think that's enough
[19:17] <Android272> a bullet is a step, showing a picture is one, andthing that the user would have to click to make it go further.
[19:17] <Android272> opps
[19:17] <Android272> did not thing of the
[19:18] <Android272> *that
[19:18] <mirek2_> I'm lost
[19:19] <mirek2_> frankly, I think all of the proposals right now are a bit premature and baseless
[19:19] <Android272> forget what I just said, it just shows where/when you reach the next slide, depending on how long it takes the slide to get there, or the user to click there.
[19:19] <mirek2_> it'd be useful to understand how people use the remote
[19:19] <Alexander2> Should be discuss the relevant art?
[19:20] <Android272> ok
[19:20] <mirek2_> I don't know
[19:20] <Alexander2> 2.5 starts on the app store :/
[19:20] <mirek2_> maybe we should ask presenters how they use the remote
[19:21] <mirek2_> for example, presenters might need a big timer
[19:21] <mirek2_> and not need slide previews at all
[19:21] <Alexander2> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.pptremotecontrol.android.presenter.fullversion&feature=search_result#?t=W251bGwsMSwxLDEsImNvbS5wcHRyZW1vdGVjb250cm9sLmFuZHJvaWQucHJlc2VudGVyLmZ1bGx2ZXJzaW9uIl0.
[19:21] <mirek2_> or maybe they would need to see the slide preview and the notes ofr it on one screen
[19:22] <Alexander2> Got 4 out of 5 stars
[19:22] <mirek2_> yeah, because it does what's advertised and apparently works well
[19:23] <Alexander2> So we could get some "inspiration"
[19:23] <Alexander2> sepearte views for the slide and the notes
[19:23] <mirek2_> but it's not really a well-designed application
[19:23] <Alexander2> it doesn't follow the guidelines, but the basic design could be recreated
[19:23] <mirek2_> it is interesting, though, how you can move between the slide and the notes
[19:24] <Android272> but the functions are what people are looking for
[19:24] <Alexander2> sliding, I guess
[19:25] <Alexander2> Apparently, a preview of the next slide isn't that important an
[19:25] <mirek2_> keynote remote has notes and the slide on one page http://www.google.cz/imgres?hl=en&safe=off&client=ubuntu&hs=8X4&sa=X&channel=cs&biw=1280&bih=714&tbm=isch&prmd=imvnsa&tbnid=TzEBgb-KrwNfOM:&imgrefurl=http://www.onemoretap.com/2009/01/08/review-keynote-remote/&docid=GPZaQ98185xvHM&imgurl=http://www.onemoretap.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/keynote-remote-screenshot-portrait.png&w=320&h=480&ei=S2KlT4T0OoqRswbp9_iRBQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=780&vpy=127&dur=2224&hovh=275&ho
[19:25] <mirek2_> @alex: no, I don't think it is
[19:25] <mirek2_> I would think the timer would be important, though
[19:25] <Alexander2> Maybe on a tablet
[19:26] <mirek2_> do you think it makes sense to even have a presentation remote for a tablet?
[19:26] <Alexander2> If we show the text and the preview at the same time, the place is pretty limited
[19:26] <Android272> http://www.onemoretap.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/keynote-remote-screenshot-landscape.png
[19:27] <mirek2_> @alex: not in portrait mode
[19:27] <mirek2_> I really like the way Keynote Remote handles it
[19:27] <Android272> the presenter is not the only one who can change the slides, there could be a person in the sound booth who likes the app better.
[19:27] <Alexander2> ?
[19:28] <mirek2_> If the presenter isn't the one changing the slides, then the person changing the slides will probably be sitting at the computer, not using a smartphone remote
[19:28] <Android272> normally without the remote there is a person changing the slides somewhere, they could use a tablet.
[19:29] <Alexander2> but that person doesn't need a remote
[19:29] <mirek2_> exactly
[19:29] <Android272> their are a lot of people who like the ipad better then the computer.
[19:29] <Alexander2> neither a tablet nor a smartphone
[19:30] <mirek2_> that's really more about the LibreOffice Android app, not the remote
[19:30] <mirek2_> it should be possible to play a slideshow from that app with notes and a timer and such
[19:31] <Android272> ether way there could be more options to show what the presenter or the sound guy wants
[19:31] <Android272> like a note to tell the person when certen thing happen in the slideshow?
[19:32] <mirek2_> let's be clear: the remote is only for the presenter
[19:32] <mirek2_> the "sound guy" will either sit at a computer or use our Android port
[19:32] <Android272> not if the presenter does not want the remote.
[19:32] <mirek2_> but we're designing for presenters that do want the remote
[19:33] <Android272> the guys at my chruch that run the sound booth have ipads
[19:33] <Android272> running stuff
[19:33] <mirek2_> and they'll use our Android port when it's ready
[19:33] <mirek2_> the one we're whiteboarding at https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/File_Viewer
[19:34] <Android272> ok
[19:34] <Android272> ?
[19:34] <mirek2_> so...
[19:36] <Android272> so some people will want just buttons, some will slides, some notes, other timeline. cant' we pervade all of them and let them choose which view to use?
[19:37] <mirek2_> that would be overly complex, imho
[19:37] <mirek2_> should we conduct a survey about how important it is to be able to see both the slide and the notes at the same time?
[19:37] <Android272> hello?
[19:38] <mirek2_> how about having a dragger with which you could either hide the notes or the preview?
[19:38] <mirek2_> like https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Press.png
[19:38] <Android272> I guess, but how much time do we have, how do we do this servery.
[19:38] <mirek2_> what?
[19:38] <Android272> survey
[19:39] <mirek2_> we have 2 weeks
[19:39] <mirek2_> to produce a good design
[19:39] <mirek2_> but we can't produce a good design without analysing what the users want
[19:39] <Android272> ok is that enough time to get info for people on what to include or should we just design all?
[19:40] <mirek2_> frankly, I'm not sure how to best tackle the problem
[19:40] <mirek2_> maybe ask people to rate how important stuff is to them
[19:41] <Android272> so then why not all, different people will want different styles. lets just give them a pretty app, that works and let them decide how to use it.
[19:42] <mirek2_> but we still have to design this app
[19:42] <Android272> and lets make it pretty :)
[19:42] <mirek2_> of course
[19:42] <mirek2_> we would never design something that's ugly on purpose
[19:42] <Android272> hahaha
[19:42] <mirek2_> :)
[19:44] <mirek2_> how about this: "Order these items by how important they are to you:"
[19:44] <Android272> well I have a friend that does presentations a lot. should I ask him what he would want, and just ask people that we know. or do we need to get an official survey?
[19:44] <mirek2_> public, official survey
[19:44] <mirek2_> if you agree
[19:44] <mirek2_> alex?
[19:44] <mirek2_> are you with us?
[19:46] <Alexander2> Sure
[19:46] <Android272> on what
[19:46] <Android272> rating them
[19:46] <Android272> ?
[19:46] <Alexander2> link to the survey on the user mailing list?
[19:46] <Android272> what?
[19:46] <Alexander2> ?
[19:46] <mirek2_> @alex: yes, and try to publicize it
[19:46] == Alexander2 has changed nick to Alexander
[19:46] == Alexander has changed nick to Alexander2
[19:46] <mirek2_> we would need to term the survey well, though
[19:46] <Android272> we don't have a lot of time
[19:47] <mirek2_> that's true
[19:47] <mirek2_> I just feel like we're not really paying attention to the actual uses of the app
[19:47] <Android272> Björn to the rescue
[19:48] <Alexander2> ?
[19:48] <mirek2_> ?
[19:48] <Android272> he likes surveys
[19:48] <Alexander2> I think we should simply ask what we need to know instaed of letting people rate deisgns
[19:48] <Alexander2> e.g.
[19:48] <mirek2_> right
[19:49] <Alexander2> Do you need a preview of the next slide
[19:49] <mirek2_> the survey shouldn't be about rating designs, but about finding out what people need
[19:49] <mirek2_> exactly, something like that
[19:49] <Android272> some people use that. my friend is one of them
[19:49] <Alexander2> Do you need a preview of the current slide and the notes at the same time
[19:49] <mirek2_> right
[19:49] <Alexander2> Do you need a timer?
[19:50] <mirek2_> I don't like that question
[19:50] <mirek2_> we should assume that at least some users will need a timer
[19:50] <Alexander2> why?
[19:50] <Android272> do you deen to know how much time you have spent/is left
[19:50] <Alexander2> alright
[19:50] <mirek2_> I mean, I'm certain that some of our users will need a timer
[19:51] <Android272> I assume that some users need some of all that we have been talking about
[19:51] <Alexander2> What else?
[19:51] <mirek2_> I would like to determine how prominent the timer should be
[19:51] <Android272> choose what slide to go to next?
[19:52] <mirek2_> so something like "Do you need an overview of your slides?"
[19:53] <mirek2_> maybe "If you use a timer, does it need to be prominently displayed?"
[19:53] <Android272> just a remote?
[19:53] <Android272> landscape or portrit?
[19:53] <Alexander2> what about the views like e.g. pairing the phone to libreoffice
[19:53] <mirek2_> what do you mean?
[19:54] <Alexander2> One uses bluetooth to pair the devices?
[19:54] <Android272> or wifi?
[19:55] <Alexander2> In that case we'd need a PIN
[19:56] <Android272> ip adress?
[19:56] <Alexander2> I guess we need to talk to the developer
[19:56] <Android272> probably a good idea
[19:56] <Alexander2> I assume one service would be broadcasting a signal
[19:57] <mirek2_> I'm questioning the usefulness of a survey
[19:57] <Android272> I question them all the time
[19:58] <mirek2_> funny, we never had a design survey before
[19:58] <Alexander2> we had one regarding a possible redesign of menus
[19:58] <Android272> has Björn done them in the past?
[19:58] <Android272> or not
[19:59] <mirek2_> @alex: when? how did that turn out?
[19:59] <Alexander2> Quite some time ago
[19:59] <Alexander2> I'll try to find it
[20:00] <Alexander2> http://www.opensource-usability-labs.com/opensource-usability-labs/2011/08/05/first-libreoffice-user-research-survey-closed/
[20:02] <mirek2_> Do you think we should feature a timer?
[20:03] <mirek2_> How about if we have a timer entry in the overflow menu.
[20:03] <mirek2_> ?
[20:03] <Android272> like in our mockups or with the time showing?
[20:03] <Alexander2> Might be distracting
[20:03] <Alexander2> I didn't ever need a clock when giving a keynote
[20:04] <mirek2_> How about this: the overflow menu would house "Clock", "Timer", and "Countdown" options
[20:04] <Alexander2> a slideshot in school
[20:04] <mirek2_> When having a timer, it should be prominent.
[20:04] <mirek2_> Some slideshows have strict timing and people NEED to know how much time they have left.
[20:05] <Alexander2> yeah
[20:06] <mirek2_> If none of the three were activated, the space where these would be would show the slide number.
[20:06] <mirek2_> (i.e. "Slide 1/10")
[20:06] <mirek2_> that space should be the top bar
[20:07] <mirek2_> agreed?
[20:07] <Alexander2> Don't you think that this info would still be relevant
[20:07] <Alexander2> ?
[20:07] <mirek2_> what info?
[20:07] <mirek2_> oh, the slide number
[20:07] <Alexander2> Slide 1/10
[20:08] <mirek2_> it could be shown in parentheses then (e.g. "10:00:00 (1/10)")
[20:08] <mirek2_> or perhaps elsewhere, as in https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Press.png
[20:08] <Alexander2> yes
[20:09] <mirek2_> so, by default, what information should the top bar house?
[20:09] <mirek2_> are we agreed that we should show the slide number below the slide thumbnail?
[20:10] <mirek2_> like https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Remote.png
[20:10] <Alexander2> yes
[20:10] <mirek2_> ok
[20:10] <mirek2_> in that case, what info should the top bar house by default
[20:10] <mirek2_> ?
[20:11] <Alexander2> foesnt that contain the buttons?
[20:11] <mirek2_> a clock? a timer? a duplicate of the slide number?
[20:11] <mirek2_> the "Clock", "Timer", and "Stopwatch" buttons?
[20:12] <mirek2_> or which buttons?
[20:12] <Alexander2> Slides / Notes / Overview
[20:12] <mirek2_> the tabs would be shown below the top bar
[20:12] <Android272> Slides/notes/remote
[20:13] <mirek2_> we need the top bar for at least the overflow menu, which would provide access to the "Clock", "Timer", and "Stopwatch" buttons
[20:13] <mirek2_> on Android phones, the tab bar is separated from the toolbar with buttons
[20:13] <mirek2_> at least in portrait mode
[20:14] <Alexander2> oh, ok
[20:14] <mirek2_> my question remains
[20:15] <mirek2_>  what info should the top bar house by default?
[20:15] <mirek2_> alex?
[20:16] <mirek2_> anyone?
[20:16] <Alexander2> the time
[20:16] <Alexander2> I can't think of any other info need to be displayed
[20:17] <mirek2_> and the switch to a timer or countdown should be done under the dropdown menu?
[20:17] <Android272> idk
[20:17] <Alexander2> yeah
[20:17] <mirek2_> ok
[20:18] <mirek2_> navigation should be done by swiping?
[20:18] <Alexander2> from one view to another?
[20:19] <mirek2_> right -- we still need to settle views
[20:19] <mirek2_> btw, should the landscape mode show the timer as well?
[20:20] <mirek2_> or countdown or clock?
[20:20] <Alexander2> I think so
[20:20] <mirek2_> it doesn't seem to fit well, though
[20:20] <Alexander2> slide on the left nots on the right
[20:20] <mirek2_> in portrait view?
[20:20] <Alexander2> yes
[20:21] <mirek2_> hm... I'd need to see it designed first
[20:21] == Android272 [4bb965d7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.185.101.215] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
[20:22] <mirek2_> how about this -- let's just post the various controversial points, finish up our designs, and find the solutions next week like we did with color management
[20:22] <Alexander2> alright
[20:22] <mirek2_> great :)
[20:23] <mirek2_> can I end the meeting then?
[20:23] <mirek2_> or is there something else to discuss?
[20:23] <Alexander2> Do you think you'll have some time creating a style/template?
[20:23] <Alexander2> to fill up our new dialog
[20:24] <mirek2_> create an actual ODF template?
[20:24] <Alexander2> yes
[20:24] <Alexander2> or a mockup
[20:24] <mirek2_> for prototype purposes?
[20:24] <mirek2_> testing purposes?
[20:25] <Alexander2> for shipping purposes :)
[20:25] <mirek2_> probably not, I really don't have much time lately
[20:25] <Alexander2> We only have some crappy ones for impress and none for writer
[20:25] <mirek2_> (today is an exception)
[20:26] <mirek2_> maybe we should hold a contest, then?
[20:26] <Alexander2> Maybe I could ask some of the people who uploaded something to the repo
[20:26] <Alexander2> I think that's it
[20:26] <mirek2_> yeah
[20:26] <mirek2_> ok
[20:26] <mirek2_> I'm missing part of the log
[20:26] <Alexander2> I'll post it then
[20:27] <mirek2_> ok
[20:27] <Alexander2> Have nice evening
[20:27] <mirek2_> good night