Design/Meetings/2012-05-12

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  • Date/Time: 2012-05-12, 1400 UTC (the time below is 2 hours ahead of UTC)
  • Location: IRC, channel #libreoffice-design

Attendees

Log

[15:54] <mirek2> hi
[15:58] == astron247 [~frootzowr@dslb-088-074-230-005.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #libreoffice-design
[15:59] <mirek2> hi astron
[15:59] <astron247> hi
[15:59] <astron247> hi guest, who are you?
[16:01] == android272 [4bb965d7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.185.101.215] has joined #libreoffice-design
[16:01] <android272> Hiii
[16:01] <mirek2> hello
[16:02] <mirek2> alex, are you guest 4942?
[16:02] <astron247> hello
[16:03] <mirek2> shall we begin?
[16:03] <astron247> i guess...
[16:03] <mirek2> astron, you said you're limited on time
[16:03] <mirek2> is there a topic you'd like to discuss?
[16:03] <astron247> ah, yes.
[16:04] <mirek2> pick a topic we should begin with
[16:04] <astron247> so, maybe discuss tango for five minutes
[16:04] <mirek2> alright
[16:04] <mirek2> I've posted the reply I've received from Lapo
[16:05] <mirek2> things look good on that front
[16:05] <astron247> one of the things that i find odd is that lapo is always named as the author of all the icons... but while he does a lot, he certainly hasnt created all the icons.
[16:05] <mirek2> where?
[16:05] <mirek2> the authors file from the icon pack lists all the authors
[16:05] <astron247> right
[16:06] <astron247> you can get this per-file from git (and for pre-2009 histroy svn)
[16:06] <astron247> anyway, the big picture is that:
[16:06] <astron247> http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-icon-theme/log/src
[16:06] <mirek2> yeah, the latest icons have been authored mainly by lapo and jakub
[16:07] <mirek2> before we can include some of the new icons, we need to make a list of the icons we'd replace
[16:07] <astron247> right
[16:07] <mirek2> we should also look at our current set and determine which icons look bad
[16:08] <mirek2> and perhaps ask Lapo to redesign them
[16:08] <mirek2> as he offered
[16:08] <astron247> more importantly, a list of icons that we cant replace right now
[16:08] <astron247> eg zoom icons: the new set only has in/out/100%/fit width/fit page
[16:09] <astron247> for draw, however, we'd also need fit object etc.
[16:09] <mirek2> I think that list would be a lot longer and a lot harder to make
[16:09] <mirek2> also, I don't think we need to look at the uncommon ones
[16:09] <@Guest4942> oh sorry
[16:09] <@Guest4942>  hi
[16:09] <mirek2> hi
[16:09] <astron247> i mean icons that we could replace with the new tango stuff but shouldnt because it would become awfully inconsistent
[16:09] <astron247> hi
[16:10] <mirek2> who are you, guest?
[16:10] == Guest4942 has changed nick to alexanderWilms
[16:10] <mirek2> ok :)
[16:10] <mirek2> @astron: we could ask Lapo to redesign some icons to fit the set
[16:10] <mirek2> or tweak some ourselves
[16:11] <mirek2> (I'm sure some would require just minor tweaks)
[16:11] <astron247> right
[16:11] <astron247> its great that lapo offered that.
[16:11] <mirek2> yes
[16:11] <astron247> ill see where i can fit the icon list in, if you dont mind
[16:11] <mirek2> ok
[16:11] <astron247> (or would you rather take the helm)
[16:11] <astron247> ?
[16:11] <@alexanderWilms> So do we need anyone else to relicense the icons?
[16:11] <mirek2> I would prefer if you took the helm
[16:12] <astron247> okay
[16:12] <mirek2> @alex: that depends on the icons we want
[16:12] <astron247> right, i believe at least wed need permission from jimmac for sure
[16:12] <mirek2> also, in the Gnome pack, a down arrow is used as a symbol for adding items
[16:12] <mirek2> I'd prefer not to use that
[16:13] <astron247> i dont know, but maybe wed even need permission from hylke
[16:13] <@alexanderWilms> I'm sure there's also a icon that would fit our purpose
[16:13] <mirek2> first we need a list of the icons we could replace
[16:13] <astron247> wait, what down arrow are you speaking about?
[16:13] <mirek2> ẗhen we can find the authors
[16:13] <mirek2> see https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Screenshot_from_2012-05-02_13-23-36.png
[16:14] <mirek2> take a look at the insert image and insert object icons
[16:14] <astron247> okay.
[16:14] <astron247> i dont find them so bad
[16:14] <astron247> what would you propose?
[16:14] <mirek2> they're not bad
[16:14] <@alexanderWilms> There's at least one icon for 'images' without that arrow
[16:14] <mirek2> but they'd be inconsistent with other insertion icons
[16:15] <mirek2> if we got permission, we could modify the icons ourselves
[16:15] <mirek2> remove the arrow
[16:15] <@alexanderWilms> I agree that they all should either have an arrow or not
[16:15] <astron247> i believe that we can agree to that yes.
[16:15] <mirek2> how would you deal with drawing tools?
[16:15] <mirek2> with an arrow, I mean?
[16:15] <astron247> add an arrow to them, yes
[16:16] <astron247> although your insert sidebar might make that superfluous
[16:16] <mirek2> even to the many, many shapes in the shape picker?
[16:16] <mirek2> if it's ever implemented...
[16:17] <astron247> shape picker... is that part of your proposal?
[16:17] <astron247> or the implemented picker for shapes?
[16:17] <mirek2> no, the shape picker that we have now
[16:17] <mirek2> or shape pickers
[16:17] <astron247> okay
[16:17] <mirek2> the ones with smiley faces and arrows and stars and such
[16:17] <mirek2> in any case, feel free to lead the project
[16:18] <astron247> long-term, these should become previews imo
[16:18] <@alexanderWilms> Would we still have different buttons in the bar for each category of drawing?
[16:18] <mirek2> what do you mean?
[16:18] <mirek2> both astron and alex?
[16:18] <mirek2> -?
[16:18] <astron247> okay... ill start
[16:18] <@alexanderWilms> eg. Arrows, Speech bubbles etc
[16:19] <@alexanderWilms> go ahead
[16:19] <astron247> okay
[16:20] <mirek2> yes?
[16:20] <astron247> right now we have icons for every shape that is there, which isnt useful, because if you ever wanted to add a shape youd need to create a new icon. thus, the (inofficial) proposal to use somewhat larger, automatically generated  "previews" of shapes
[16:20] <@alexanderWilms> like in word?
[16:20] <astron247> probably...
[16:21] <@alexanderWilms> I like that
[16:21] <mirek2> ok
[16:21] <mirek2> though I myself would prefer to integrate several shapes into one tool
[16:22] <mirek2> like the star/polygon tool in Inkscape
[16:22] <astron247> hm, no, word still seems to use icons: http://www.techtipsgeek.com/make-flowchart-word-2007/1352/
[16:22] <mirek2> I like Word's implementation though
[16:22] <@alexanderWilms> Ah, I meant the way they display styles
[16:22] <mirek2> I'm not sure how large previews would fit into the uI
[16:23] <mirek2> in any case, this is for developers to solve in the future
[16:23] <android272> you could just scale them based upon the screen size
[16:23] <astron247> well, the previews would be in a popup
[16:23] <@alexanderWilms> yes
[16:24] <mirek2> hm... I'd need to see it
[16:24] <astron247> (not directly in the toolbar. but i havent made a mockup of it either)
[16:24] <mirek2> in any case, let's focus on the current stuff
[16:24] <astron247> okay
[16:24] <mirek2> is the icon topic closed?
[16:25] <@alexanderWilms> What#s the next step regarding icons?
[16:25] <mirek2> astron should work on a list of icons we could replace along with a list of icons we could replace them with
[16:25] <astron247> okay. then ill write lapo, i guess...
[16:25] <@alexanderWilms> thanks
[16:26] <astron247> ok. good
[16:26] <mirek2> then we need another list of icons that would need to be tweaked to fit the new icon pack
[16:26] <mirek2> and then we could send that to Lapo
[16:26] <mirek2> sound good?
[16:26] <astron247> yup
[16:26] <@alexanderWilms> yes
[16:26] <mirek2> alright
[16:26] <mirek2> next topic
[16:27] <mirek2> astron, would you care to pick a GSoC whiteboard?
[16:27] <android272> didnt you talk about some icons we can not implement?
[16:27] <@alexanderWilms> I think he meant icons that are currently not in the gnome icon theme that we would need
[16:27] <mirek2> that's solved by the list of icons we would need to tweak if we adopted the new icons
[16:27] <astron247> uhm... on to templates?
[16:28] <@alexanderWilms> alright
[16:28] <@alexanderWilms> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Call_for_Templates
[16:28] <mirek2> template dialog or call for templates?
[16:28] <mirek2> the latter is not as imminent
[16:28] <android272> im going to work on some database templates :)
[16:29] <android272> we NEED them bad
[16:29] <@alexanderWilms> good
[16:29] <mirek2> @android: I don't think that's possible, though
[16:29] <android272> other wise its kinda hard to create your own database from scratch
[16:29] <mirek2> afaik, Base doesn't support templates
[16:29] <mirek2> or template files
[16:29] <@alexanderWilms> I've never used that so I got no clue whether/how that would work
[16:29] <astron247> really ... access has templates
[16:29] <astron247> ?
[16:30] <android272> isnt a template nothing more then a file that is made to be modified?
[16:30] <@alexanderWilms> An odf template seems to be the same as a normal document wit a different file extension
[16:30] <@alexanderWilms> *with
[16:30] <astron247> basically yes, but usually it is handled a bit differently by the software and has a different exstension
[16:30] <mirek2> yes, exactly
[16:30] <astron247> -s
[16:31] <android272> @astron: if that was a question then yes access has templates.
[16:31] <astron247> okay, thanks!
[16:31] <android272> well then once the make it so that base has timplates the we will has some :)
[16:32] <mirek2> alright
[16:32] <@alexanderWilms> I want to use a texture from lostandtaken.com
[16:32] <mirek2> not a priority right now, though
[16:32] <@alexanderWilms> these are ther terms of use: Lost & Taken textures are made freely available for use in both personal and commercial projects including web templates, designs, and other materials intended for distribution. Attribution is appreciated, but not required.
[16:32] <astron247> sound good
[16:32] <@alexanderWilms> They didn't give a certain license, though
[16:32] <android272> @alex: for what?
[16:32] <@alexanderWilms> Do we need a statement from them that it's cc0?
[16:33] <mirek2> it'd be helpful, yes
[16:33] <@alexanderWilms> @android: For use in te,plates
[16:33] <astron247> actually who came up with cc0?
[16:33] <mirek2> michael
[16:33] <astron247> ok
[16:33] <astron247> well then
[16:33] <astron247> and why?
[16:33] <mirek2> it's because we need to guarantee that people can use our templates for any purpose
[16:34] <mirek2> even in commercial presentations
[16:34] <android272> it makes since, why give people timplates they are not allowed to use modifie or make money off of
[16:34] <mirek2> right
[16:34] <mirek2> @alex: you should ask for the license
[16:34] <astron247> and mpl/lgpl are source code licenses, not licenses for creative works, i guess?
[16:34] <mirek2> use both the contact form and the "Ask me anything" form
[16:34] <mirek2> @astron: yes, basically
[16:35] <astron247> @ alex: if they say something about public domain, it should be fine
[16:35] <mirek2> and those still require attribution
[16:35] <@alexanderWilms> I already asked them on Deviantart and via their contact form today
[16:35] <@alexanderWilms> nswerI hope I get an as
[16:35] <astron247> good
[16:35] <mirek2> you just have to wait for a response
[16:35] <mirek2> in any case, the GSoC projects really are a priority right now
[16:35] <astron247> have you talked to the ubuntu community guys any further?
[16:35] <mirek2> let's discuss those
[16:36] <astron247> (alex?)
[16:36] <@alexanderWilms> Well, I uploaded one template to that bzr repo, but there wasn't any other activity
[16:36] <@alexanderWilms> tbh, I prefer submitting them directly to LO
[16:37] <mirek2> you'll be able to
[16:37] <astron247> okay, sure, but they had this contest idea
[16:37] <mirek2> isn't it better to just include it with LibO?
[16:38] <@alexanderWilms> I can ask them whether there is some progress
[16:38] <mirek2> Alex, Michael sent you an invitation to commit access on freedesktop
[16:38] <@alexanderWilms> Yes, I now have commit access
[16:38] <mirek2> good :)
[16:38] <astron247> awesome!
[16:38] <@alexanderWilms> :)
[16:38] <mirek2> you should just tell the Ubuntu guys what's going on
[16:38] <astron247> what have you done with it so far?
[16:38] <@alexanderWilms> I'll
[16:38] <@alexanderWilms> do
[16:39] <@alexanderWilms> I'm not too experienced, though
[16:39] <@alexanderWilms> I've worked a bit with bazaar, but I'm not too sure where to put the files
[16:39] <mirek2> go to Michael with any questions
[16:39] <astron247> okay... best to ask andras or michael probably
[16:39] <mirek2> in any case, can we look at the GSoC whiteboards?
[16:39] <astron247> right
[16:39] <mirek2> we have a little more than a week left
[16:39] <@alexanderWilms> I did, ok lets go on
[16:39] <astron247> templates?
[16:40] <mirek2> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Templates_and_documents_rework
[16:40] <@alexanderWilms> picker, you mean?
[16:40] <astron247> yes
[16:40] <mirek2> let's start picking through the open problems
[16:40] <mirek2> Closing the folder overlay
[16:40] <mirek2> I'm in favor of using a close button
[16:41] <mirek2> and clicking outside the overlay
[16:41] <mirek2> both of those
[16:41] <@alexanderWilms> agree
[16:41] <astron247> yup
[16:41] <mirek2> andrew?
[16:41] <mirek2> do you agree?
[16:42] <astron247> wait ... folder overlay, what exactly is that?
[16:42] <mirek2> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:T-fold.png
[16:42] <mirek2> clicking away would be most appropriate for this scenario:
[16:42] <android272> agree
[16:42] <mirek2> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/archive/c/c1/20120510065933!T-fold.png
[16:42] <mirek2> alright
[16:42] <mirek2> Moving files from the folder overlay
[16:43] <@alexanderWilms> Moving files from the folder overlay
[16:43] <mirek2> I prefer the "to the toolbar" solution
[16:43] <@alexanderWilms> This isn't very common on the desktop, is it?
[16:43] <mirek2> though I'm not exactly sure what to call the superior folder
[16:43] <android272> is this a dialog or the whole screen like the startup menu with all the different programs?
[16:44] <mirek2> huh?
[16:44] <astron247> wait, can we stay on the folder overlay for a second..?
[16:44] <@alexanderWilms> it is something like a modal dialog
[16:44] <mirek2> @alex: Android does something similar when dragging icons
[16:44] <mirek2> @astron: sure
[16:44] <android272> is it a pop up dialog or the entire screen?
[16:44] <@alexanderWilms> pop up
[16:44] <mirek2> popup that covers most of the screen
[16:44] <astron247> okay, is it possible to have subfolders in a folder?
[16:44] <mirek2> no
[16:45] <mirek2> that's one of the reasons why it appears as a popup
[16:45] <android272> so then what if the user clicks out of the dialog would the folder close?
[16:45] <mirek2> yes
[16:45] <mirek2> unless we choose to close the folder only by clicking the "X" icon
[16:45] <astron247> would the folder overlay be a real window?
[16:45] <android272> would the dialog stay or would it disappear like some do annoyingly?
[16:45] <astron247> (ie window manager window?)
[16:46] <mirek2> it would be an overlay
[16:46] <mirek2> think Android dialogs
[16:46] <android272> what does that mean?
[16:46] <android272> mirek
[16:46] <mirek2> or drop-down menus
[16:46] <mirek2> but with a much bigger area
[16:46] <android272> oh ok got ya
[16:46] <@alexanderWilms> Maybe like this, but bigger: http://gnomeshell.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/modal-attached-window.png?w=540
[16:47] <@alexanderWilms> and not hiding the toolbar
[16:47] <android272> ok so then you can not do anything until that is closed?
[16:47] <astron247> @alex: that's actually a modal window that doesnt close when clickng on its parent
[16:47] <astron247> +i
[16:47] <mirek2> yeah, this dialog would close when clicking on the parent
[16:47] <mirek2> but not when clicking on the toolbar
[16:47] <mirek2> or above
[16:47] <@alexanderWilms> alright
[16:48] <mirek2> so we're all clear on this?
[16:48] <astron247> can you produce a realistic gtk+/windows/mac os looking mockup of this?
[16:48] <astron247> id love to see this in the flesh
[16:49] <@alexanderWilms> Mirek?
[16:49] <mirek2> if you mean the whole thing (not just the overlay), then sure, but on Thursday at best
[16:49] <mirek2> though I'm not exactly sure what VCL's limitations are...
[16:49] <mirek2> those might be a bit dampening
[16:49] <mirek2> the folder overlay would look the same as in the mockup, though
[16:49] <android272> @astron: wont we do that in the Shaping Tentative Design stage?
[16:49] <astron247> right, but a real desktop look would be good.
[16:49] <mirek2> @andrew: yes
[16:50] <astron247> probably.
[16:50] <@alexanderWilms> Would we have widescreen templates by default?
[16:50] <mirek2> we should
[16:50] <android272> ok so all that was not clear to me, what kind of dialog is it.
[16:50] <astron247> projectors are usually still 4:3
[16:50] <mirek2> the folder overlay is an overlay, not a dialog
[16:51] <mirek2> it stays within the window, cannot be moved
[16:51] <mirek2> can be closed by clicking on the parent or clicking the "X" button
[16:51] <android272> whats the parent?
[16:51] <mirek2> @alex: we should have both 4:3 and widescreen templates
[16:51] <mirek2> @android: the thing above
[16:51] <@alexanderWilms> Ok
[16:52] <android272> wait the folder?
[16:52] <mirek2> in the hierarchy
[16:52] <mirek2> yes
[16:52] <android272> or the dialog
[16:52] <android272> oik
[16:52] <astron247> the dialogue
[16:52] <mirek2> can we move on to moving files from the folder overlay?
[16:52] <android272> ?
[16:52] <android272> sorry
[16:53] <mirek2> @android: basically, if you click out of the overlay  inside the area below the toolbar, the overlay will close
[16:53] <mirek2> can we move on to moving files from the folder overlay?
[16:53] <astron247> sure
[16:53] <mirek2> ok
[16:53] <android272> yes
[16:53] <mirek2> I'm in favor of dragging to the toolbar
[16:54] <mirek2> Android does something similar with homescreen icons
[16:54] <android272> dragging what? do you mean from the app menu in android?
[16:55] <mirek2> from the homescreen in Android
[16:55] <android272> to where?
[16:56] <android272> sorry I got it.
[16:56] <mirek2> alright
[16:56] <mirek2> see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvYf1DQOgF0 for clarification
[16:57] <astron247> where do i have to go in the video (minute?)
[16:58] <mirek2> I had it a minute ago, now I can't find it
[16:58] <@alexanderWilms> I now afk for some minutes, will be back very soon
[16:58] <astron247> okay.
[16:58] <astron247> anyway, how about a dedicated "save to disk" button?
[16:59] <mirek2> 4:09
[16:59] <astron247> okay
[16:59] <astron247> so how he deletes the clock
[16:59] <mirek2> the remove button
[16:59] <mirek2> yes
[17:00] <mirek2> @astron: we discussed this last meeting and came to the conclusion that online templates would appear in separate folders
[17:00] <android272> oh so just moving apps on the home screen
[17:00] <mirek2> yes
[17:00] <astron247> sure but sometimes youd want to have an online template offline too, right?
[17:00] <mirek2> but if we used the toolbar to move templates, a "Download to Home" button would replace the "Move Back Home" button
[17:01] <astron247> whats that for, actually?
[17:01] <mirek2> I wasn't sure what to call the parent folder
[17:01] <astron247> okay
[17:01] <mirek2> maybe "Move to Parent Folder" would be best?
[17:01] <astron247> Move up?
[17:01] <mirek2> "Move to Superior Folder"?
[17:02] <mirek2> but it uses the down arrow...
[17:02] <mirek2> and the overlay is visually above the parent folder
[17:02] <astron247> well, using an up arrow shouldnt be a problem
[17:02] <mirek2> ok, I guess we could have "Move Up"
[17:03] <astron247> good.
[17:03] <mirek2> so "Download" would replace "Move Up" for online templates
[17:03] <astron247> ~dunno
[17:03] <android272> yes
[17:04] <mirek2> @astron: do you not think that would be a good idea?
[17:04] <astron247> would one more icon fit?
[17:04] <mirek2> but one can't move or reorder online templates
[17:04] <mirek2> as the list is managed online and continually changes
[17:05] <astron247> ouch
[17:05] <mirek2> I believe it's best to keep online templates separate from offline templates
[17:05] <astron247> my misunderstanding.
[17:05] <android272> why would move to the parent folder to only not be able to use it because you did not download it?
[17:05] <astron247> youre right then
[17:05] <mirek2> alright
[17:05] <astron247> ill go off now... se you
[17:05] <astron247> +
[17:05] <astron247> e
[17:05] <mirek2> ok, have fun
[17:06] <astron247> thanks a bunch
[17:06] <mirek2> :) see you
[17:06] == astron247 [~frootzowr@dslb-088-074-230-005.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #libreoffice-design []
[17:06] <mirek2> should we wait for alex?
[17:07] <android272> is he still gone?
[17:07] <mirek2> it seems so
[17:07] <mirek2> let's wait for Alex
[17:07] <android272> ok
[17:07] <mirek2> at least I can have a snack before he comes back :)
[17:07] <android272> :)
[17:08] <@alexanderWilms> yeah,it'll take maybe half an hour?
[17:09] <@alexanderWilms> We have some visitors
[17:09] <mirek2> alright
[17:09] <mirek2> should we expect you in half an hour then?
[17:09] <android272> ok
[17:09] <@alexanderWilms> yes
[17:09] <mirek2> ok, let's take a break until 15:50 GMT
[17:10] <mirek2> I meant 15:40
[17:10] <android272> ok
[17:40] <@alexanderWilms> I'm back
[17:40] <mirek2> me too
[17:40] <mirek2> so...
[17:41] <mirek2> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Templates_and_documents_rework#Moving_files_from_the_folder_overlay
[17:41] <mirek2> what do you think?
[17:41] <mirek2> which option is best?
[17:41] <mirek2> IMHO, we should have both
[17:42] <mirek2> except now we don't have to leave space at the bottom of the overlay
[17:42] <mirek2> I mean, below the overlay
[17:42] <@alexanderWilms> ?
[17:42] <@alexanderWilms> Where else?
[17:43] <mirek2> what do you mean?
[17:43] <@alexanderWilms> you said that we don't need the space at the bottom
[17:43] <mirek2> In "https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:T-drag.png", "Move back home" (which should be renamed "Move up") should do the same as dragging a thumbnail outside of the overlay
[17:44] <mirek2> so we don't need the space at the bottom
[17:44] <mirek2> if we go with showing the toolbar buttons when dragging a template
[17:44] <@alexanderWilms> but the overlay must still be smaller than the parent window
[17:44] <mirek2> only slightly
[17:45] <mirek2> as in the mockup
[17:45] <mirek2> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:T-drag.png
[17:46] <mirek2> thoughts? comments?
[17:46] <@alexanderWilms> could one click on 'Move up'?
[17:46] <mirek2> no, it would only appear when dragging
[17:46] <@alexanderWilms> simply selecting some templates and clicking that
[17:47] <mirek2> Selecting some templates should give more options
[17:47] <@alexanderWilms> Why not show it permanently (greyed out when no template is selected)
[17:47] <mirek2> Because there are other items in the toolbar
[17:47] <android272> sorry was not watching the time
[17:47] <mirek2> I'd also discourage against using grayed-out buttons
[17:48] <@alexanderWilms> alright, but allow both
[17:48] <mirek2> A proposal for a selected item's toolbar: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:T-check.png
[17:48] <@alexanderWilms> clicking the button and dragging templates onto the button
[17:49] <mirek2> "Edit" and "Properties" don't make sense on the toolbar for dragging
[17:49] <mirek2> but yes, there will also be buttons to click
[17:50] <mirek2> So both solutions, then?
[17:50] <@alexanderWilms> yes
[17:50] <@alexanderWilms> isn't there some sort of secondary click on touch devices?
[17:50] <mirek2> nope
[17:50] <@alexanderWilms> So that we could put edit and properties in there
[17:50] <@alexanderWilms> hm
[17:51] <mirek2> just long-tap to select
[17:51] <android272> ok I like both but if there is no space blow or any where else I don't know how people are going to know you can do that.
[17:51] <mirek2> @andrew: they don't need to, the toolbar will suffice
[17:52] <mirek2> can we move on to "Navigation between pages inside the thumbnail"?
[17:52] <android272> then why would we have both then?
[17:53] <mirek2> @andrew: being able to drag it below makes sense when you have a small overlay (on a big screen or when you have few templates in a folder)
[17:53] <mirek2> it's just a nicety
[17:53] <mirek2> moving on?
[17:53] <android272> ok just don't see it being used.
[17:54] <android272> yes
[17:54] <mirek2> Navigation between pages inside the thumbnail
[17:54] <mirek2> personally, I would have to vote for none
[17:55] <mirek2> I don't think many people check out the various pages a template has
[17:55] <@alexanderWilms> The thumbnails are not the ones saved within the odf file?
[17:55] <mirek2> what do you mean?
[17:55] <android272> ?
[17:55] <mirek2> does each template file have a thumbnail saved within?
[17:55] <@alexanderWilms> if you unzip an odf file an look into the thumnails folder ther's only one picture
[17:55] <@alexanderWilms> yes
[17:56] <mirek2> alright, I guess that solves it, then
[17:56] <mirek2> no page preview, then
[17:56] <android272> ok
[17:56] <mirek2> any other problems we need to solve to craft the tentative design?
[17:57] <android272> ok
[17:57] <@alexanderWilms> no
[17:57] <mirek2> alright
[17:57] <android272> no
[17:57] <mirek2> should I work on the tentative design?
[17:58] <@alexanderWilms> If you wish
[17:58] <@alexanderWilms> well, theres one problem
[17:58] <android272> yah
[17:58] <mirek2> yeah?
[17:59] <@alexanderWilms> That#s the thumb of my Writer template: http://ubuntuone.com/3axvvOAh9EatAgPovRCWrt
[17:59] <@alexanderWilms> It only shows the first page
[17:59] <mirek2> ok...
[17:59] <@alexanderWilms> So it might not always be the most representative page
[18:00] <mirek2> In the majority of cases, it is
[18:00] <@alexanderWilms> ok
[18:00] <mirek2> if it isn't, it can be replaced manually, no?
[18:00] <@alexanderWilms> it could
[18:00] <mirek2> ok, good
[18:00] <mirek2> so I'll flesh out the tentative design
[18:01] <mirek2> I'll get to work on it on Thursday
[18:01] <mirek2> I have a huge exam on Wednesday....
[18:01] <@alexanderWilms> good luck
[18:01] <mirek2> thanks :)
[18:01] <mirek2> moving on to https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Impress_remote ?
[18:02] <@alexanderWilms> yes
[18:02] <mirek2> or maybe we should discuss https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/File_Manager first, as it's designed like the template dialog
[18:03] <android272> I talked to peoples from my church about this. they said basically the same thing I said all last meeting. let the user choose what to do.
[18:03] <android272> the remote
[18:03] <@alexanderWilms> you mean having different layouts/modes?
[18:04] <mirek2> this isn't really about user choice -- of course we'll try to cover as broad a feature set as we can
[18:04] <android272> yes
[18:04] <mirek2> it's basically about the UI
[18:04] <mirek2> which we should strive to make as simple as possible
[18:05] <mirek2> (take a look at the LibreOffice Options dialog, which gives a lot of choice, but isn't really usable for anyone)
[18:05] <android272> well if we have all the different preferences then we can design them. but if we keep fighting about what to make then we will never design them.
[18:05] <mirek2> but we shouldn't design all the different UIs
[18:06] <android272> why not?
[18:06] <mirek2> that would be a lot of unnecessary coding and would make the UI so much more complex
[18:06] <mirek2> again, just look at our Options dialog
[18:06] <mirek2> it offers tons of options
[18:06] <mirek2> but it's really not to the user's benefit
[18:06] <mirek2> could we look at https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/File_Manager first, though?
[18:07] <mirek2> as that's very closely related to the template dialog
[18:07] <mirek2> in UI
[18:07] <mirek2> we'll come back to the remote soon, though, I promise
[18:07] <android272> ok all we need is: just slides, just remote, just notes, slides with notes, current and next slides... anything else?
[18:08] <android272> ok
[18:08] <mirek2> alright, thanks
[18:08] <android272> we can move on.
[18:08] <mirek2> great, thanks
[18:08] <mirek2> we haven't really done much to analyze all the problems
[18:08] <@alexanderWilms> overlays do not exist on android?
[18:09] <mirek2> modal dialogs on Android are identical to overlays
[18:09] <mirek2> except that they don't use the toolbar
[18:09] <mirek2> our overlay would use the toolbar
[18:09] <@alexanderWilms> ah
[18:10] <mirek2> on the desktop, clicking the title of a thumbnail selects a template
[18:10] <mirek2> however, this isn't standard on Android and might cause some confusion
[18:10] <android272> are you talking about the templates in the file mannager?
[18:10] <mirek2> basically, we've agreed the file manager would work just like the template manager
[18:10] <@alexanderWilms> yes
[18:11] <android272> yes
[18:11] <mirek2> and similarly to the desktop version
[18:11] <mirek2> on the desktop version, clicking the title of a thumbnail selects a template
[18:11] <mirek2> but on Android, tapping the title launches the document
[18:11] <mirek2> and selection is done purely through long-tapping
[18:12] <@alexanderWilms> ok
[18:12] <mirek2> should we follow the Android HIG and be inconsistent with the desktop version?
[18:12] <mirek2> or should we do the same as on the desktop and be inconsistent with Android?
[18:12] <android272> ok well thats normal on android, why do we need everything to be the same?
[18:12] <mirek2> consistency
[18:13] <@alexanderWilms> I think consistency with the platform is more important
[18:13] <mirek2> alright
[18:13] <mirek2> another option is changing the template dialog's behavior
[18:13] <android272> I say it should be as close to each other as we can but users will understand what to do because of what internment they are in.
[18:13] <android272> there can be some minor changes
[18:14] <mirek2> having a selection mode in the desktop version would make things more consistent
[18:14] <android272> such as how to select them
[18:14] <mirek2> alright
[18:14] <mirek2> alex, your thoughts?
[18:15] <mirek2> alex, are you there?
[18:15] <@alexanderWilms> one moment
[18:15] <@alexanderWilms> So we don't neccesarily need the selection like it is don in Gnome on the desktop?
[18:16] <@alexanderWilms> "on the desktop version, clicking the title of a thumbnail selects a template"
[18:16] <android272> even if the user is new to tablets they will quickly realize that, that is the way it is through out the tablet is different from the descktop.
[18:17] <mirek2> true, but Android might become a desktop OS too and Gnome might become a tablet OS too
[18:17] <mirek2> the borders between the two are blurring
[18:18] <@alexanderWilms> We'd have both options to select a template, then?
[18:18] <mirek2> which options?
[18:18] <android272> well then what if you are on the tablet in desktop mode and then it would act like the desktop LibreOffice do you think that would be too confusing?
[18:19] <mirek2> the problem isn't that there's no selection mode on the desktop
[18:19] <mirek2> the problem is that tapping the title below a thumbnail on a desktop selects the document
[18:19] <mirek2> whereas on a tablet, it launches the document
[18:19] <mirek2> in any case, do we agree that on Android, tapping the title below the thumbnail should launch the document?
[18:20] <@alexanderWilms> Wouldn't tapping the preview do the same?
[18:20] <mirek2> tapping the preview would launch
[18:20] <android272> ok hold on, what are we talking about being different, one thing at a time please.
[18:20] <mirek2> tapping the title below on Android would also launch, on the desktop it would select
[18:21] <@alexanderWilms> I see
[18:21] <android272> on the desktop clicking the preview does what, and on the android it does what? as it is currently.
[18:22] <mirek2> it always launches
[18:22] <mirek2> no difference there
[18:22] <android272> ok and the title
[18:22] <@alexanderWilms> the difference would be between clicking/tapping the title
[18:22] <mirek2> tapping the title below on Android would also launch, on the desktop it would select
[18:22] <android272> I do not see the difference
[18:22] <mirek2> @alex: distros can't tell the difference
[18:22] <mirek2> tapping = clicking on desktop OS's
[18:23] <android272> why not have the gnome select on both?
[18:23] <mirek2> @android: tapping the title below on Android would launch, on the desktop it would select
[18:23] <mirek2> @android: we've decided against selection mode last meeting
[18:23] <android272> or have clicking/taping the title select on both
[18:23] <@alexanderWilms> @mirek: I meant the difference between android and a desktop os
[18:24] <mirek2> @alex: desktop OS's will increasingly run on tablets, too
[18:24] <android272> and vise versa
[18:24] <@alexanderWilms> i know
[18:24] <mirek2> and the next Android version might be suitable for keyboards/mouse
[18:25] <android272> my phone may be able to use mouse... not sure im looking into it because I think it would be funny
[18:25] <mirek2> in any case, do we agree that the Android version should follow the standard Android behavior?
[18:25] <android272> yes
[18:25] <@alexanderWilms> yes
[18:25] <mirek2> ok
[18:25] <android272> then do we change the desktop
[18:26] <mirek2> we might
[18:26] <mirek2> I'll have to talk to the GSoC student first
[18:26] <mirek2> who was against the selection mode at first
[18:26] <mirek2> moving on
[18:27] <android272> I have to go... im going to be a zombie soon... not sleepy going to be in a video soon :)
[18:27] <mirek2> has anyone given thought to how the template "folder" should look?
[18:27] <mirek2> @andrew: alright, good night
[18:27] <android272> as in overly?
[18:27] <android272> you too
[18:27] <@alexanderWilms> good night
[18:27] == android272 [4bb965d7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.185.101.215] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
[18:28] <@alexanderWilms> you mean the icon?
[18:28] <mirek2> either icon or alexanderWilms a folder-ish kind of visual with template previews
[18:28] <mirek2> either is fine
[18:28] <@alexanderWilms> I don't think we need previews
[18:28] <mirek2> alright
[18:29] <@alexanderWilms> I had an idea, I'll just sketch iut
[18:32] <mirek2> right now, or in the course of the week?
[18:32] <@alexanderWilms> right now
[18:32] <@alexanderWilms> done
[18:33] <@alexanderWilms> http://ubuntuone.com/4QAn6x0YOcMZgSfP6pPObe
[18:33] <@alexanderWilms> It's a bit cliché, though
[18:34] <mirek2> I prefer your other icon: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Alexander_Wilms
[18:34] <mirek2> this one seems more like "Downloads" to me
[18:34] <mirek2> remember that templates don't have to be online
[18:34] <mirek2> some may be authored by the user
[18:34] <mirek2> the icon looks nice, though
[18:35] <@alexanderWilms> Now I get it
[18:35] <@alexanderWilms> One has a folder 'Templates' in the document manager
[18:35] <@alexanderWilms> ?
[18:35] <mirek2> it's not really a folder
[18:36] <@alexanderWilms> it opens the templates view
[18:36] <mirek2> it doesn't launch an overlay
[18:36] <mirek2> exactly
[18:36] <@alexanderWilms> I'd remove the puzzle piece
[18:36] <@alexanderWilms> would that Tango-ish look fit?
[18:36] <mirek2> yeah, probably
[18:37] <mirek2> the problem might be that a) LibreOffice uses a notebook metaphor for templates
[18:37] <mirek2> b) the "T" would have to be replaced with something international
[18:38] <mirek2> I'm not really sure the ruler makes much sense there either
[18:38] <@alexanderWilms> It is rather generic
[18:38] <@alexanderWilms> T for text
[18:38] <mirek2> we decided to use "A" for text
[18:38] <mirek2> as that's a glyph that's available in the Cyrillic and Greek alphabets as well as the Latin one
[18:38] <@alexanderWilms> ok
[18:39] <@alexanderWilms> Well, rulers are often used to symbolize templates
[18:39] <mirek2> it's a minor issue, though, and it's solveable anytime
[18:39] <mirek2> such as?
[18:40] <mirek2> which template icon uses a ruler?
[18:41] <mirek2> afaik, template icons usually adhere to the "notebook" metaphor
[18:41] <mirek2> alright, I've found some icons with a ruler
[18:41] <mirek2> nevermind :)
[18:41] <mirek2> in any case, this isn't a major issue
[18:41] <@alexanderWilms> the gnome ones
[18:42] <@alexanderWilms> i think apple uses them too
[18:42] <@alexanderWilms> Should I upload the tweaked svg to the wiki and mail you the link?
[18:42] <mirek2> sure
[18:43] <mirek2> any other issues we need to take care of in the file manager?
[18:43] <@alexanderWilms> I'm not aware of any
[18:44] <mirek2> alright
[18:44] <@alexanderWilms> I think we're done
[18:44] <mirek2> 2 more whiteboards to go
[18:44] <mirek2> or do you have to go?
[18:44] <mirek2> would you like to take care of making the tentative design for the file manager?
[18:45] <@alexanderWilms> you mean the file viewer
[18:45] <mirek2> and the impress remote
[18:45] <mirek2> which we skipped
[18:45] <@alexanderWilms> ah
[18:45] <@alexanderWilms> forgot about that
[18:45] <@alexanderWilms> Yeah, i can do so
[18:45] <mirek2> ok
[18:45] <mirek2> I can send you my Inkscape file
[18:46] <@alexanderWilms> ok
[18:46] <mirek2> I'll do so later today
[18:46] <mirek2> if that's ok
[18:46] <@alexanderWilms> sure
[18:46] <mirek2> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/File_Viewer
[18:47] <mirek2> still needs some design
[18:47] <mirek2> slide shows should probably work like on the desktop
[18:47] <@alexanderWilms> yes
[18:47] <@alexanderWilms> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:V-bar.png
[18:47] <mirek2> sheets should probably be shown as tabs
[18:47] <@alexanderWilms> That doesn't really look native
[18:48] <mirek2> hold on
[18:48] <@alexanderWilms> or is it possible to have such party hidden toolbars
[18:48] <@alexanderWilms> *partly
[18:49] <mirek2> I'm not sure, actually
[18:50] <@alexanderWilms> I think it'd be good if we only used completely native widgets
[18:50] <mirek2> I agree
[18:52] <mirek2> I need to look at lights-out toolbars again
[18:52] <@alexanderWilms> ? isn't that just another theme?
[18:52] <@alexanderWilms> holo dark?
[18:52] <mirek2> nope
[18:53] <mirek2> lights-out mode is when the toolbar disappears unless you click on the screen
[18:53] <mirek2> and the system buttons turn into dots
[18:53] <mirek2> Google Books uses it
[18:53] <@alexanderWilms> ah
[18:54] <@alexanderWilms> So one can implement both modes for he same application?
[18:54] <@alexanderWilms> If that's the case, why is it an open problem?
[18:55] <mirek2> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FKc5zc3kn8&feature=related
[18:55] <mirek2> 18:53
[18:55] <mirek2> but it's not a good showcase of it
[18:55] <mirek2> @alex: it's just one mode
[18:57] <mirek2> still looking for a good video
[18:57] <@alexanderWilms> so we would need to decide whether we want this mode additionally to the normal mode?
[18:58] <mirek2> we don't need a normal mode
[18:58] <mirek2> you can show the toolbar by tapping the screen in lights-out mode
[18:58] <mirek2> which you could sort of see on that video
[19:00] <@alexanderWilms> would new icons be added to that bar for editing?
[19:00] <mirek2> we wouldn't use the lights-out mode for editing
[19:00] <@alexanderWilms> ah ok
[19:00] <mirek2> it's more appropriate for reading, when you don't want to see the chrome most of the time
[19:01] <@alexanderWilms> but whats the problem?
[19:01] <@alexanderWilms> do we decide on using lights-out for the viewer?
[19:02] <mirek2> yes
[19:02] <mirek2> and I'm lookin at how lights-out mode handles toolbars
[19:02] <@alexanderWilms> ok
[19:03] <mirek2> I think they're overlaid
[19:03] <mirek2> I'm not sure, though
[19:04] <mirek2> hm, can't find it right now
[19:05] <mirek2> what about the way the navigator works
[19:05] <mirek2> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/File_Viewer
[19:05] <@alexanderWilms> looks good
[19:05] <mirek2> ok, thanks
[19:06] <mirek2> I feel like the whiteboard is half-finished
[19:06] <@alexanderWilms> the toolbar in that mock up, is that an overlay as described in the 'open problems' section
[19:06] <mirek2> yes
[19:06] <mirek2> I'd prefer it to be dark, though, as in https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:V-bar.png
[19:07] <mirek2> how about we leave crafting the tentative design to next week?
[19:07] <mirek2> I feel like we're about half-done with proposals...
[19:08] <mirek2> what do you think?
[19:08] <@alexanderWilms> I agree
[19:08] <@alexanderWilms> Off-topic, but awesome: https://plus.google.com/107387848310635899060/posts/LRwJouvnFu5
[19:08] <@alexanderWilms> Well, relatively
[19:08] <mirek2> :)
[19:09] <@alexanderWilms> Sanity
[19:09] <mirek2> yay, power off is back :D
[19:09] <@alexanderWilms> remote control?
[19:10] <mirek2> yes
[19:10] <mirek2> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Impress_remote
[19:10] <mirek2> let's go through the open problems
[19:10] <mirek2> Presentation of Slide Notes
[19:10] <mirek2> as I said before, I would prefer to present them along with the slide preview
[19:11] <mirek2> in my mockups, you can even adjust the area the notes get, so you could have a view with just the notes or just the previews...
[19:11] <mirek2> but it doesn't present the two as different views
[19:11] <mirek2> what do you think?
[19:12] <@alexanderWilms> What did we decide on showing the next slide?
[19:12] <@alexanderWilms> Yeah, makes sense
[19:12] <@alexanderWilms> It's probably easier for end users
[19:12] <mirek2> so... solution A, then?
[19:13] <@alexanderWilms> solution A
[19:13] <@alexanderWilms> ?
[19:13] <mirek2> ok, thanks
[19:14] <@alexanderWilms> That was supposed to be a question
[19:14] <@alexanderWilms> What is that solution A
[19:14] <mirek2> the first solution mentioned
[19:15] <@alexanderWilms> showing them at the same time?
[19:15] <mirek2> having both in one view
[19:15] <@alexanderWilms> yes
[19:16] <mirek2> alright
[19:16] <mirek2> advancement of slides
[19:16] <mirek2> I feel like a gesture is most intuitive
[19:16] <@alexanderWilms> simply sliding?
[19:16] <mirek2> it's the same as moving through a photo slideshow
[19:16] <mirek2> or through homescreens
[19:16] <mirek2> or anything else that's paginated
[19:17] <@alexanderWilms> alright
[19:17] <mirek2> I think tapping the thumbnail would be good, too
[19:17] <mirek2> maybe
[19:17] <mirek2> or maybe not, nevermind
[19:17] <@alexanderWilms> I'd expect that something opens
[19:18] <@alexanderWilms> when tapping on it
[19:18] <mirek2> ok, nevermind that then
[19:18] <mirek2> so shall we use a sliding gesture, then?
[19:18] <@alexanderWilms> yes
[19:18] <mirek2> alright
[19:19] <mirek2> Portrait vs. Landscape Mode
[19:19] <mirek2> I feel like they should show the same info
[19:19] <mirek2> especially as we won't have different views other than the slide browser
[19:20] <@alexanderWilms> Is it possible to show a clock in the toolbar?
[19:20] <@alexanderWilms> or only static icons?
[19:21] <mirek2> hmph...
[19:21] <mirek2> I would think it was possible
[19:21] <mirek2> Apple's Keynote Remote shows the slide number
[19:21] <mirek2> which is something that changes
[19:21] <mirek2> but that's on iOS
[19:22] <mirek2> I really think it's possible to show the clock there, though
[19:22] <@alexanderWilms> ok
[19:24] <mirek2> so we'll have similar views when switching orientations?
[19:24] <mirek2> and put the clock in the action bar
[19:24] <mirek2> (if possible)
[19:24] <@alexanderWilms> yes
[19:24] <mirek2> alright
[19:24] <mirek2> screen blackout
[19:25] <mirek2> I proposed to put it in the slide overview
[19:25] <mirek2> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:P-slides.png
[19:25] <mirek2> alternatively, it can be in the overflow menu
[19:25] <mirek2> what do you think?
[19:25] <@alexanderWilms> why not the overflow menu?
[19:25] <@alexanderWilms> I think it's more intuitive that way
[19:25] <@alexanderWilms> why should one need to change to the slide overview?
[19:26] <@alexanderWilms> that was a rhetorical question
[19:26] <@alexanderWilms> I think it is better to put it in the menu
[19:27] <mirek2> I just feel like the "blackout screen" is a slide itself
[19:27] <mirek2> and if you want to go to a slide, you go to the slide overview
[19:27] <mirek2> plus you get a nice preview which you wouldn't get in the overflow menu
[19:28] <@alexanderWilms> Well, on the desktop it isn't handled like another slide
[19:28] <@alexanderWilms> and if one quickly needs to black out one doesn't need an obverview
[19:28] <mirek2> it takes as many steps, though
[19:28] <mirek2> but I see how it might be inconsistent with the desktop
[19:29] <mirek2> so overflow menu, then
[19:29] <@alexanderWilms> yeah, you're right regarding the number of steps
[19:29] <@alexanderWilms> OK
[19:29] <mirek2> alright
[19:29] <mirek2> Auto-declining calls
[19:30] <mirek2> overflow menu, if it becomes a feature
[19:30] <@alexanderWilms> I didn't think of this, but it seems useful
[19:30] <mirek2> or we could have a settings page
[19:30] <@alexanderWilms> I hope not
[19:30] <mirek2> it was a problem that a Keynote Remote reviewer brought up
[19:30] <mirek2> ok, overflow menu it is, then :)
[19:30] <@alexanderWilms> what exactly?
[19:31] <@alexanderWilms> the problem
[19:31] <mirek2> huh?
[19:31] <mirek2> oh
[19:31] <mirek2> that Keynote Remote didn't have an auto-decline calls feature
[19:32] <mirek2> Landscape mode
[19:32] <@alexanderWilms> Does it even make sense not to have this feature?
[19:32] <mirek2> I'm not sure
[19:32] <@alexanderWilms> auto-declining, I mean. Maybe we do'nt need the option to turn it on and off, but I'm not sure.
[19:32] <mirek2> of course
[19:32] <mirek2> I would keep it on
[19:33] <@alexanderWilms> alright
[19:33] <mirek2> I'm not sure, though
[19:33] <@alexanderWilms> We don't want to end up like the gnome designers :)
[19:33] <mirek2> what do you mean?
[19:33] <mirek2> oversimplifying things?
[19:33] <@alexanderWilms> Taking all the options away
[19:33] <mirek2> I actually think they're doing a stand-up job
[19:33] <@alexanderWilms> yes
[19:34] <mirek2> except for the power off button
[19:34] <mirek2> I don't really miss anything else in the UI
[19:34] <@alexanderWilms> I think switching the icon theme and the gtk theme require gnome-tweaks-tool
[19:34] <mirek2> sure
[19:35] <mirek2> I see that as a plus for UI designers, though
[19:35] <mirek2> they don't have to target a million looks and sizes and icon packs now
[19:35] <mirek2> thank god
[19:36] <@alexanderWilms> And the default looks are quite good, too
[19:36] <mirek2> and Windows, Mac OS, Windows Phone, iOS, and webOS are the same
[19:36] <mirek2> yeah, exactly
[19:36] <mirek2> about the landscape mode
[19:36] <mirek2> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:P-land.png ?
[19:37] <mirek2> or something else?
[19:37] <mirek2> also, should the separator be draggable in this case?
[19:37] <mirek2> it might interfere a bit with scrolling
[19:37] <@alexanderWilms> does dragging a seperator usually require a long tap?
[19:37] <mirek2> though not much, as it's not that probably that your finger will land exactly on the separator handle
[19:38] <mirek2> no, short tap, I believe
[19:38] <mirek2> actually, drag, not tap
[19:39] <mirek2> you have to tap the handle first
[19:39] <@alexanderWilms> I think we should leave it that way
[19:39] <mirek2> which is a pretty small circle in the middle of the screen
[19:39] <mirek2> by "leave it that way", do you mean dragging the circle will change the area for notes and thumbnails?
[19:40] <@alexanderWilms> yes
[19:40] <mirek2> alright
[19:41] <mirek2> switching clock modes
[19:41] <mirek2> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Impress_remote#Switch_Clock_Modes
[19:41] <mirek2> I feel like this is simpler than having buttons in the overflow menu
[19:42] <mirek2> what do you think?
[19:42] <@alexanderWilms> seems more intuitive to tap on the clock directly
[19:42] <@alexanderWilms> instead of using the menu
[19:42] <mirek2> I agree
[19:43] <mirek2> so should we use my proposal as is?
[19:43] <mirek2> or are there some problems that I've overlooked?
[19:44] <@alexanderWilms> you're partly showing the next slide in a perspective
[19:45] <@alexanderWilms> do we still want that?
[19:45] <mirek2> I meant just with the clock, but we can talk about it in general
[19:45] <@alexanderWilms> The clock is good so far
[19:45] <mirek2> I would want it, yes
[19:45] <mirek2> it doesn't take up much space
[19:46] <@alexanderWilms> might be useful
[19:46] <mirek2> and it previews the next slide, which could be helpful to some
[19:46] <@alexanderWilms> would it use a nice coverflow animation (If the GSoC student has enogh time)
[19:46] <mirek2> in landscape mode, if the note pane was hidden, it could show the next and previous slides with just a slide tilt
[19:47] <mirek2> it should
[19:48] <@alexanderWilms> how does one hide the note pane?
[19:48] <@alexanderWilms> via the menu?
[19:48] <mirek2> by dragging the separator
[19:48] <mirek2> using the circular handle
[19:48] <mirek2> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Press.png
[19:48] <@alexanderWilms> so the seperator would still be visible?
[19:49] <mirek2> yes
[19:49] <mirek2> was it not supposed to?
[19:49] <@alexanderWilms> I didn't think about it that much
[19:50] <mirek2> alright
[19:50] <@alexanderWilms> If one does
[19:50] <mirek2> if one does?
[19:51] <mirek2> what did you mean by that?
[19:51] <@alexanderWilms> If one drags it down to the bottom in portrait mode, how does the size of the slides change?
[19:52] <@alexanderWilms> they can't become oven bigger, right?
[19:52] <mirek2> the slide thumbnail gets bigger, the next and previous slides on the side get more tilted until they disappear
[19:53] <@alexanderWilms> so it would simply be surrounded by a lot of whitespace
[19:53] <mirek2> on the top and bottom, yes
[19:53] <@alexanderWilms> ok
[19:54] <mirek2> alright
[19:54] <mirek2> the slide browser
[19:54] <mirek2> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Impress_remote#Slide_Browser
[19:54] <mirek2> I imagine it like this, of course without the blank screen
[19:54] <@alexanderWilms> looks good
[19:55] <mirek2> no issues with it, then?
[19:55] <@alexanderWilms> no
[19:55] <mirek2> ok
[19:56] <mirek2> I don't think we know how the user will connect to the computer yet
[19:56] <mirek2> that's something for the developer to determine
[19:56] <mirek2> so I guess we can't work on "Initial setup" yet...
[19:56] <mirek2> or am I wrong?
[19:56] <@alexanderWilms> He wanted to use bluetooth and wireless lan, I think
[19:57] <@alexanderWilms> plus an additional PIN to avoid pranks
[19:57] <mirek2> how would the PIN work?
[19:57] <@alexanderWilms> I guess the BT/WLAN doesn't matter
[19:58] <mirek2> would the desktop app generate a PIN and the remote approve it or vice versa?
[19:58] <@alexanderWilms> you set it in impress and need to type it in the remote
[19:58] <mirek2> ok
[19:59] <mirek2> do we need to design a UI for the BT/WLAN connection, or is that handled by the OS?
[19:59] <mirek2> in Keynote Remote, the PIN is generated by the remote
[19:59] <mirek2> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTYgsdvbEBM
[20:00] <mirek2> maybe we should auto-generate a passcode
[20:00] <@alexanderWilms> I think it's handled by the OS
[20:00] <mirek2> would probably be safer (people couldn't constantly choose 1234) and easier for the user
[20:01] <mirek2> where in Impress do you think should be the entry point for the passcode?
[20:02] <mirek2> "Slide Show>Connect with Impress Remote"?
[20:02] <@alexanderWilms> Yeah
[20:02] <@alexanderWilms> "For authentification I thought it would be easiest to have a passphrase
[20:02] <@alexanderWilms> which is used to encrypt the serial stream between LO and the app --
[20:02] <@alexanderWilms> this is mainly to prevent people playing pranks rather than to provide
[20:02] <@alexanderWilms> high security. "
[20:02] <mirek2> of course
[20:02] <mirek2> alright
[20:02] <mirek2> do you want to work on the tentative design or should I?
[20:03] <mirek2> (I'd send you the SVG source of mine, of course.)
[20:03] <@alexanderWilms> for the remote?
[20:03] <@alexanderWilms> I can do that
[20:03] <mirek2> alright
[20:03] <mirek2> I think we're done here
[20:04] <mirek2> I'll put up the IRC log on the wiki
[20:04] <@alexanderWilms> thx
[20:04] <@alexanderWilms> I'm so tired now
[20:04] <mirek2> :) ok
[20:04] <@alexanderWilms> when will you send the svgs over?
[20:04] <mirek2> sometime today
[20:05] <mirek2> I might have to clean them up a bit, as they contain some unnecessary elements
[20:05] <@alexanderWilms> See you next week, then
[20:05] <mirek2> see you
[20:05] <mirek2> :)