From The Document Foundation Wiki
    • Date/Time: 2012-05-12, 1400 UTC (the time below is 2 hours ahead of UTC)
    • Location: IRC, channel #libreoffice-design



    [15:54] <mirek2> hi
    [15:58] == astron247 [] has joined #libreoffice-design
    [15:59] <mirek2> hi astron
    [15:59] <astron247> hi
    [15:59] <astron247> hi guest, who are you?
    [16:01] == android272 [4bb965d7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.] has joined #libreoffice-design
    [16:01] <android272> Hiii
    [16:01] <mirek2> hello
    [16:02] <mirek2> alex, are you guest 4942?
    [16:02] <astron247> hello
    [16:03] <mirek2> shall we begin?
    [16:03] <astron247> i guess...
    [16:03] <mirek2> astron, you said you're limited on time
    [16:03] <mirek2> is there a topic you'd like to discuss?
    [16:03] <astron247> ah, yes.
    [16:04] <mirek2> pick a topic we should begin with
    [16:04] <astron247> so, maybe discuss tango for five minutes
    [16:04] <mirek2> alright
    [16:04] <mirek2> I've posted the reply I've received from Lapo
    [16:05] <mirek2> things look good on that front
    [16:05] <astron247> one of the things that i find odd is that lapo is always named as the author of all the icons... but while he does a lot, he certainly hasnt created all the icons.
    [16:05] <mirek2> where?
    [16:05] <mirek2> the authors file from the icon pack lists all the authors
    [16:05] <astron247> right
    [16:06] <astron247> you can get this per-file from git (and for pre-2009 histroy svn)
    [16:06] <astron247> anyway, the big picture is that:
    [16:06] <astron247>
    [16:06] <mirek2> yeah, the latest icons have been authored mainly by lapo and jakub
    [16:07] <mirek2> before we can include some of the new icons, we need to make a list of the icons we'd replace
    [16:07] <astron247> right
    [16:07] <mirek2> we should also look at our current set and determine which icons look bad
    [16:08] <mirek2> and perhaps ask Lapo to redesign them
    [16:08] <mirek2> as he offered
    [16:08] <astron247> more importantly, a list of icons that we cant replace right now
    [16:08] <astron247> eg zoom icons: the new set only has in/out/100%/fit width/fit page
    [16:09] <astron247> for draw, however, we'd also need fit object etc.
    [16:09] <mirek2> I think that list would be a lot longer and a lot harder to make
    [16:09] <mirek2> also, I don't think we need to look at the uncommon ones
    [16:09] <@Guest4942> oh sorry
    [16:09] <@Guest4942>  hi
    [16:09] <mirek2> hi
    [16:09] <astron247> i mean icons that we could replace with the new tango stuff but shouldnt because it would become awfully inconsistent
    [16:09] <astron247> hi
    [16:10] <mirek2> who are you, guest?
    [16:10] == Guest4942 has changed nick to alexanderWilms
    [16:10] <mirek2> ok :)
    [16:10] <mirek2> @astron: we could ask Lapo to redesign some icons to fit the set
    [16:10] <mirek2> or tweak some ourselves
    [16:11] <mirek2> (I'm sure some would require just minor tweaks)
    [16:11] <astron247> right
    [16:11] <astron247> its great that lapo offered that.
    [16:11] <mirek2> yes
    [16:11] <astron247> ill see where i can fit the icon list in, if you dont mind
    [16:11] <mirek2> ok
    [16:11] <astron247> (or would you rather take the helm)
    [16:11] <astron247> ?
    [16:11] <@alexanderWilms> So do we need anyone else to relicense the icons?
    [16:11] <mirek2> I would prefer if you took the helm
    [16:12] <astron247> okay
    [16:12] <mirek2> @alex: that depends on the icons we want
    [16:12] <astron247> right, i believe at least wed need permission from jimmac for sure
    [16:12] <mirek2> also, in the Gnome pack, a down arrow is used as a symbol for adding items
    [16:12] <mirek2> I'd prefer not to use that
    [16:13] <astron247> i dont know, but maybe wed even need permission from hylke
    [16:13] <@alexanderWilms> I'm sure there's also a icon that would fit our purpose
    [16:13] <mirek2> first we need a list of the icons we could replace
    [16:13] <astron247> wait, what down arrow are you speaking about?
    [16:13] <mirek2> ẗhen we can find the authors
    [16:13] <mirek2> see
    [16:14] <mirek2> take a look at the insert image and insert object icons
    [16:14] <astron247> okay.
    [16:14] <astron247> i dont find them so bad
    [16:14] <astron247> what would you propose?
    [16:14] <mirek2> they're not bad
    [16:14] <@alexanderWilms> There's at least one icon for 'images' without that arrow
    [16:14] <mirek2> but they'd be inconsistent with other insertion icons
    [16:15] <mirek2> if we got permission, we could modify the icons ourselves
    [16:15] <mirek2> remove the arrow
    [16:15] <@alexanderWilms> I agree that they all should either have an arrow or not
    [16:15] <astron247> i believe that we can agree to that yes.
    [16:15] <mirek2> how would you deal with drawing tools?
    [16:15] <mirek2> with an arrow, I mean?
    [16:15] <astron247> add an arrow to them, yes
    [16:16] <astron247> although your insert sidebar might make that superfluous
    [16:16] <mirek2> even to the many, many shapes in the shape picker?
    [16:16] <mirek2> if it's ever implemented...
    [16:17] <astron247> shape picker... is that part of your proposal?
    [16:17] <astron247> or the implemented picker for shapes?
    [16:17] <mirek2> no, the shape picker that we have now
    [16:17] <mirek2> or shape pickers
    [16:17] <astron247> okay
    [16:17] <mirek2> the ones with smiley faces and arrows and stars and such
    [16:17] <mirek2> in any case, feel free to lead the project
    [16:18] <astron247> long-term, these should become previews imo
    [16:18] <@alexanderWilms> Would we still have different buttons in the bar for each category of drawing?
    [16:18] <mirek2> what do you mean?
    [16:18] <mirek2> both astron and alex?
    [16:18] <mirek2> -?
    [16:18] <astron247> okay... ill start
    [16:18] <@alexanderWilms> eg. Arrows, Speech bubbles etc
    [16:19] <@alexanderWilms> go ahead
    [16:19] <astron247> okay
    [16:20] <mirek2> yes?
    [16:20] <astron247> right now we have icons for every shape that is there, which isnt useful, because if you ever wanted to add a shape youd need to create a new icon. thus, the (inofficial) proposal to use somewhat larger, automatically generated  "previews" of shapes
    [16:20] <@alexanderWilms> like in word?
    [16:20] <astron247> probably...
    [16:21] <@alexanderWilms> I like that
    [16:21] <mirek2> ok
    [16:21] <mirek2> though I myself would prefer to integrate several shapes into one tool
    [16:22] <mirek2> like the star/polygon tool in Inkscape
    [16:22] <astron247> hm, no, word still seems to use icons:
    [16:22] <mirek2> I like Word's implementation though
    [16:22] <@alexanderWilms> Ah, I meant the way they display styles
    [16:22] <mirek2> I'm not sure how large previews would fit into the uI
    [16:23] <mirek2> in any case, this is for developers to solve in the future
    [16:23] <android272> you could just scale them based upon the screen size
    [16:23] <astron247> well, the previews would be in a popup
    [16:23] <@alexanderWilms> yes
    [16:24] <mirek2> hm... I'd need to see it
    [16:24] <astron247> (not directly in the toolbar. but i havent made a mockup of it either)
    [16:24] <mirek2> in any case, let's focus on the current stuff
    [16:24] <astron247> okay
    [16:24] <mirek2> is the icon topic closed?
    [16:25] <@alexanderWilms> What#s the next step regarding icons?
    [16:25] <mirek2> astron should work on a list of icons we could replace along with a list of icons we could replace them with
    [16:25] <astron247> okay. then ill write lapo, i guess...
    [16:25] <@alexanderWilms> thanks
    [16:26] <astron247> ok. good
    [16:26] <mirek2> then we need another list of icons that would need to be tweaked to fit the new icon pack
    [16:26] <mirek2> and then we could send that to Lapo
    [16:26] <mirek2> sound good?
    [16:26] <astron247> yup
    [16:26] <@alexanderWilms> yes
    [16:26] <mirek2> alright
    [16:26] <mirek2> next topic
    [16:27] <mirek2> astron, would you care to pick a GSoC whiteboard?
    [16:27] <android272> didnt you talk about some icons we can not implement?
    [16:27] <@alexanderWilms> I think he meant icons that are currently not in the gnome icon theme that we would need
    [16:27] <mirek2> that's solved by the list of icons we would need to tweak if we adopted the new icons
    [16:27] <astron247> uhm... on to templates?
    [16:28] <@alexanderWilms> alright
    [16:28] <@alexanderWilms>
    [16:28] <mirek2> template dialog or call for templates?
    [16:28] <mirek2> the latter is not as imminent
    [16:28] <android272> im going to work on some database templates :)
    [16:29] <android272> we NEED them bad
    [16:29] <@alexanderWilms> good
    [16:29] <mirek2> @android: I don't think that's possible, though
    [16:29] <android272> other wise its kinda hard to create your own database from scratch
    [16:29] <mirek2> afaik, Base doesn't support templates
    [16:29] <mirek2> or template files
    [16:29] <@alexanderWilms> I've never used that so I got no clue whether/how that would work
    [16:29] <astron247> really ... access has templates
    [16:29] <astron247> ?
    [16:30] <android272> isnt a template nothing more then a file that is made to be modified?
    [16:30] <@alexanderWilms> An odf template seems to be the same as a normal document wit a different file extension
    [16:30] <@alexanderWilms> *with
    [16:30] <astron247> basically yes, but usually it is handled a bit differently by the software and has a different exstension
    [16:30] <mirek2> yes, exactly
    [16:30] <astron247> -s
    [16:31] <android272> @astron: if that was a question then yes access has templates.
    [16:31] <astron247> okay, thanks!
    [16:31] <android272> well then once the make it so that base has timplates the we will has some :)
    [16:32] <mirek2> alright
    [16:32] <@alexanderWilms> I want to use a texture from
    [16:32] <mirek2> not a priority right now, though
    [16:32] <@alexanderWilms> these are ther terms of use: Lost & Taken textures are made freely available for use in both personal and commercial projects including web templates, designs, and other materials intended for distribution. Attribution is appreciated, but not required.
    [16:32] <astron247> sound good
    [16:32] <@alexanderWilms> They didn't give a certain license, though
    [16:32] <android272> @alex: for what?
    [16:32] <@alexanderWilms> Do we need a statement from them that it's cc0?
    [16:33] <mirek2> it'd be helpful, yes
    [16:33] <@alexanderWilms> @android: For use in te,plates
    [16:33] <astron247> actually who came up with cc0?
    [16:33] <mirek2> michael
    [16:33] <astron247> ok
    [16:33] <astron247> well then
    [16:33] <astron247> and why?
    [16:33] <mirek2> it's because we need to guarantee that people can use our templates for any purpose
    [16:34] <mirek2> even in commercial presentations
    [16:34] <android272> it makes since, why give people timplates they are not allowed to use modifie or make money off of
    [16:34] <mirek2> right
    [16:34] <mirek2> @alex: you should ask for the license
    [16:34] <astron247> and mpl/lgpl are source code licenses, not licenses for creative works, i guess?
    [16:34] <mirek2> use both the contact form and the "Ask me anything" form
    [16:34] <mirek2> @astron: yes, basically
    [16:35] <astron247> @ alex: if they say something about public domain, it should be fine
    [16:35] <mirek2> and those still require attribution
    [16:35] <@alexanderWilms> I already asked them on Deviantart and via their contact form today
    [16:35] <@alexanderWilms> nswerI hope I get an as
    [16:35] <astron247> good
    [16:35] <mirek2> you just have to wait for a response
    [16:35] <mirek2> in any case, the GSoC projects really are a priority right now
    [16:35] <astron247> have you talked to the ubuntu community guys any further?
    [16:35] <mirek2> let's discuss those
    [16:36] <astron247> (alex?)
    [16:36] <@alexanderWilms> Well, I uploaded one template to that bzr repo, but there wasn't any other activity
    [16:36] <@alexanderWilms> tbh, I prefer submitting them directly to LO
    [16:37] <mirek2> you'll be able to
    [16:37] <astron247> okay, sure, but they had this contest idea
    [16:37] <mirek2> isn't it better to just include it with LibO?
    [16:38] <@alexanderWilms> I can ask them whether there is some progress
    [16:38] <mirek2> Alex, Michael sent you an invitation to commit access on freedesktop
    [16:38] <@alexanderWilms> Yes, I now have commit access
    [16:38] <mirek2> good :)
    [16:38] <astron247> awesome!
    [16:38] <@alexanderWilms> :)
    [16:38] <mirek2> you should just tell the Ubuntu guys what's going on
    [16:38] <astron247> what have you done with it so far?
    [16:38] <@alexanderWilms> I'll
    [16:38] <@alexanderWilms> do
    [16:39] <@alexanderWilms> I'm not too experienced, though
    [16:39] <@alexanderWilms> I've worked a bit with bazaar, but I'm not too sure where to put the files
    [16:39] <mirek2> go to Michael with any questions
    [16:39] <astron247> okay... best to ask andras or michael probably
    [16:39] <mirek2> in any case, can we look at the GSoC whiteboards?
    [16:39] <astron247> right
    [16:39] <mirek2> we have a little more than a week left
    [16:39] <@alexanderWilms> I did, ok lets go on
    [16:39] <astron247> templates?
    [16:40] <mirek2>
    [16:40] <@alexanderWilms> picker, you mean?
    [16:40] <astron247> yes
    [16:40] <mirek2> let's start picking through the open problems
    [16:40] <mirek2> Closing the folder overlay
    [16:40] <mirek2> I'm in favor of using a close button
    [16:41] <mirek2> and clicking outside the overlay
    [16:41] <mirek2> both of those
    [16:41] <@alexanderWilms> agree
    [16:41] <astron247> yup
    [16:41] <mirek2> andrew?
    [16:41] <mirek2> do you agree?
    [16:42] <astron247> wait ... folder overlay, what exactly is that?
    [16:42] <mirek2>
    [16:42] <mirek2> clicking away would be most appropriate for this scenario:
    [16:42] <android272> agree
    [16:42] <mirek2>!T-fold.png
    [16:42] <mirek2> alright
    [16:42] <mirek2> Moving files from the folder overlay
    [16:43] <@alexanderWilms> Moving files from the folder overlay
    [16:43] <mirek2> I prefer the "to the toolbar" solution
    [16:43] <@alexanderWilms> This isn't very common on the desktop, is it?
    [16:43] <mirek2> though I'm not exactly sure what to call the superior folder
    [16:43] <android272> is this a dialog or the whole screen like the startup menu with all the different programs?
    [16:44] <mirek2> huh?
    [16:44] <astron247> wait, can we stay on the folder overlay for a second..?
    [16:44] <@alexanderWilms> it is something like a modal dialog
    [16:44] <mirek2> @alex: Android does something similar when dragging icons
    [16:44] <mirek2> @astron: sure
    [16:44] <android272> is it a pop up dialog or the entire screen?
    [16:44] <@alexanderWilms> pop up
    [16:44] <mirek2> popup that covers most of the screen
    [16:44] <astron247> okay, is it possible to have subfolders in a folder?
    [16:44] <mirek2> no
    [16:45] <mirek2> that's one of the reasons why it appears as a popup
    [16:45] <android272> so then what if the user clicks out of the dialog would the folder close?
    [16:45] <mirek2> yes
    [16:45] <mirek2> unless we choose to close the folder only by clicking the "X" icon
    [16:45] <astron247> would the folder overlay be a real window?
    [16:45] <android272> would the dialog stay or would it disappear like some do annoyingly?
    [16:45] <astron247> (ie window manager window?)
    [16:46] <mirek2> it would be an overlay
    [16:46] <mirek2> think Android dialogs
    [16:46] <android272> what does that mean?
    [16:46] <android272> mirek
    [16:46] <mirek2> or drop-down menus
    [16:46] <mirek2> but with a much bigger area
    [16:46] <android272> oh ok got ya
    [16:46] <@alexanderWilms> Maybe like this, but bigger:
    [16:47] <@alexanderWilms> and not hiding the toolbar
    [16:47] <android272> ok so then you can not do anything until that is closed?
    [16:47] <astron247> @alex: that's actually a modal window that doesnt close when clickng on its parent
    [16:47] <astron247> +i
    [16:47] <mirek2> yeah, this dialog would close when clicking on the parent
    [16:47] <mirek2> but not when clicking on the toolbar
    [16:47] <mirek2> or above
    [16:47] <@alexanderWilms> alright
    [16:48] <mirek2> so we're all clear on this?
    [16:48] <astron247> can you produce a realistic gtk+/windows/macOS looking mockup of this?
    [16:48] <astron247> id love to see this in the flesh
    [16:49] <@alexanderWilms> Mirek?
    [16:49] <mirek2> if you mean the whole thing (not just the overlay), then sure, but on Thursday at best
    [16:49] <mirek2> though I'm not exactly sure what VCL's limitations are...
    [16:49] <mirek2> those might be a bit dampening
    [16:49] <mirek2> the folder overlay would look the same as in the mockup, though
    [16:49] <android272> @astron: wont we do that in the Shaping Tentative Design stage?
    [16:49] <astron247> right, but a real desktop look would be good.
    [16:49] <mirek2> @andrew: yes
    [16:50] <astron247> probably.
    [16:50] <@alexanderWilms> Would we have widescreen templates by default?
    [16:50] <mirek2> we should
    [16:50] <android272> ok so all that was not clear to me, what kind of dialog is it.
    [16:50] <astron247> projectors are usually still 4:3
    [16:50] <mirek2> the folder overlay is an overlay, not a dialog
    [16:51] <mirek2> it stays within the window, cannot be moved
    [16:51] <mirek2> can be closed by clicking on the parent or clicking the "X" button
    [16:51] <android272> whats the parent?
    [16:51] <mirek2> @alex: we should have both 4:3 and widescreen templates
    [16:51] <mirek2> @android: the thing above
    [16:51] <@alexanderWilms> Ok
    [16:52] <android272> wait the folder?
    [16:52] <mirek2> in the hierarchy
    [16:52] <mirek2> yes
    [16:52] <android272> or the dialog
    [16:52] <android272> oik
    [16:52] <astron247> the dialogue
    [16:52] <mirek2> can we move on to moving files from the folder overlay?
    [16:52] <android272> ?
    [16:52] <android272> sorry
    [16:53] <mirek2> @android: basically, if you click out of the overlay  inside the area below the toolbar, the overlay will close
    [16:53] <mirek2> can we move on to moving files from the folder overlay?
    [16:53] <astron247> sure
    [16:53] <mirek2> ok
    [16:53] <android272> yes
    [16:53] <mirek2> I'm in favor of dragging to the toolbar
    [16:54] <mirek2> Android does something similar with homescreen icons
    [16:54] <android272> dragging what? do you mean from the app menu in android?
    [16:55] <mirek2> from the homescreen in Android
    [16:55] <android272> to where?
    [16:56] <android272> sorry I got it.
    [16:56] <mirek2> alright
    [16:56] <mirek2> see for clarification
    [16:57] <astron247> where do i have to go in the video (minute?)
    [16:58] <mirek2> I had it a minute ago, now I can't find it
    [16:58] <@alexanderWilms> I now afk for some minutes, will be back very soon
    [16:58] <astron247> okay.
    [16:58] <astron247> anyway, how about a dedicated "save to disk" button?
    [16:59] <mirek2> 4:09
    [16:59] <astron247> okay
    [16:59] <astron247> so how he deletes the clock
    [16:59] <mirek2> the remove button
    [16:59] <mirek2> yes
    [17:00] <mirek2> @astron: we discussed this last meeting and came to the conclusion that online templates would appear in separate folders
    [17:00] <android272> oh so just moving apps on the home screen
    [17:00] <mirek2> yes
    [17:00] <astron247> sure but sometimes youd want to have an online template offline too, right?
    [17:00] <mirek2> but if we used the toolbar to move templates, a "Download to Home" button would replace the "Move Back Home" button
    [17:01] <astron247> whats that for, actually?
    [17:01] <mirek2> I wasn't sure what to call the parent folder
    [17:01] <astron247> okay
    [17:01] <mirek2> maybe "Move to Parent Folder" would be best?
    [17:01] <astron247> Move up?
    [17:01] <mirek2> "Move to Superior Folder"?
    [17:02] <mirek2> but it uses the down arrow...
    [17:02] <mirek2> and the overlay is visually above the parent folder
    [17:02] <astron247> well, using an up arrow shouldnt be a problem
    [17:02] <mirek2> ok, I guess we could have "Move Up"
    [17:03] <astron247> good.
    [17:03] <mirek2> so "Download" would replace "Move Up" for online templates
    [17:03] <astron247> ~dunno
    [17:03] <android272> yes
    [17:04] <mirek2> @astron: do you not think that would be a good idea?
    [17:04] <astron247> would one more icon fit?
    [17:04] <mirek2> but one can't move or reorder online templates
    [17:04] <mirek2> as the list is managed online and continually changes
    [17:05] <astron247> ouch
    [17:05] <mirek2> I believe it's best to keep online templates separate from offline templates
    [17:05] <astron247> my misunderstanding.
    [17:05] <android272> why would move to the parent folder to only not be able to use it because you did not download it?
    [17:05] <astron247> youre right then
    [17:05] <mirek2> alright
    [17:05] <astron247> ill go off now... se you
    [17:05] <astron247> +
    [17:05] <astron247> e
    [17:05] <mirek2> ok, have fun
    [17:06] <astron247> thanks a bunch
    [17:06] <mirek2> :) see you
    [17:06] == astron247 [] has left #libreoffice-design []
    [17:06] <mirek2> should we wait for alex?
    [17:07] <android272> is he still gone?
    [17:07] <mirek2> it seems so
    [17:07] <mirek2> let's wait for Alex
    [17:07] <android272> ok
    [17:07] <mirek2> at least I can have a snack before he comes back :)
    [17:07] <android272> :)
    [17:08] <@alexanderWilms> yeah,it'll take maybe half an hour?
    [17:09] <@alexanderWilms> We have some visitors
    [17:09] <mirek2> alright
    [17:09] <mirek2> should we expect you in half an hour then?
    [17:09] <android272> ok
    [17:09] <@alexanderWilms> yes
    [17:09] <mirek2> ok, let's take a break until 15:50 GMT
    [17:10] <mirek2> I meant 15:40
    [17:10] <android272> ok
    [17:40] <@alexanderWilms> I'm back
    [17:40] <mirek2> me too
    [17:40] <mirek2> so...
    [17:41] <mirek2>
    [17:41] <mirek2> what do you think?
    [17:41] <mirek2> which option is best?
    [17:41] <mirek2> IMHO, we should have both
    [17:42] <mirek2> except now we don't have to leave space at the bottom of the overlay
    [17:42] <mirek2> I mean, below the overlay
    [17:42] <@alexanderWilms> ?
    [17:42] <@alexanderWilms> Where else?
    [17:43] <mirek2> what do you mean?
    [17:43] <@alexanderWilms> you said that we don't need the space at the bottom
    [17:43] <mirek2> In "", "Move back home" (which should be renamed "Move up") should do the same as dragging a thumbnail outside of the overlay
    [17:44] <mirek2> so we don't need the space at the bottom
    [17:44] <mirek2> if we go with showing the toolbar buttons when dragging a template
    [17:44] <@alexanderWilms> but the overlay must still be smaller than the parent window
    [17:44] <mirek2> only slightly
    [17:45] <mirek2> as in the mockup
    [17:45] <mirek2>
    [17:46] <mirek2> thoughts? comments?
    [17:46] <@alexanderWilms> could one click on 'Move up'?
    [17:46] <mirek2> no, it would only appear when dragging
    [17:46] <@alexanderWilms> simply selecting some templates and clicking that
    [17:47] <mirek2> Selecting some templates should give more options
    [17:47] <@alexanderWilms> Why not show it permanently (greyed out when no template is selected)
    [17:47] <mirek2> Because there are other items in the toolbar
    [17:47] <android272> sorry was not watching the time
    [17:47] <mirek2> I'd also discourage against using grayed-out buttons
    [17:48] <@alexanderWilms> alright, but allow both
    [17:48] <mirek2> A proposal for a selected item's toolbar:
    [17:48] <@alexanderWilms> clicking the button and dragging templates onto the button
    [17:49] <mirek2> "Edit" and "Properties" don't make sense on the toolbar for dragging
    [17:49] <mirek2> but yes, there will also be buttons to click
    [17:50] <mirek2> So both solutions, then?
    [17:50] <@alexanderWilms> yes
    [17:50] <@alexanderWilms> isn't there some sort of secondary click on touch devices?
    [17:50] <mirek2> nope
    [17:50] <@alexanderWilms> So that we could put edit and properties in there
    [17:50] <@alexanderWilms> hm
    [17:51] <mirek2> just long-tap to select
    [17:51] <android272> ok I like both but if there is no space blow or any where else I don't know how people are going to know you can do that.
    [17:51] <mirek2> @andrew: they don't need to, the toolbar will suffice
    [17:52] <mirek2> can we move on to "Navigation between pages inside the thumbnail"?
    [17:52] <android272> then why would we have both then?
    [17:53] <mirek2> @andrew: being able to drag it below makes sense when you have a small overlay (on a big screen or when you have few templates in a folder)
    [17:53] <mirek2> it's just a nicety
    [17:53] <mirek2> moving on?
    [17:53] <android272> ok just don't see it being used.
    [17:54] <android272> yes
    [17:54] <mirek2> Navigation between pages inside the thumbnail
    [17:54] <mirek2> personally, I would have to vote for none
    [17:55] <mirek2> I don't think many people check out the various pages a template has
    [17:55] <@alexanderWilms> The thumbnails are not the ones saved within the odf file?
    [17:55] <mirek2> what do you mean?
    [17:55] <android272> ?
    [17:55] <mirek2> does each template file have a thumbnail saved within?
    [17:55] <@alexanderWilms> if you unzip an odf file an look into the thumnails folder ther's only one picture
    [17:55] <@alexanderWilms> yes
    [17:56] <mirek2> alright, I guess that solves it, then
    [17:56] <mirek2> no page preview, then
    [17:56] <android272> ok
    [17:56] <mirek2> any other problems we need to solve to craft the tentative design?
    [17:57] <android272> ok
    [17:57] <@alexanderWilms> no
    [17:57] <mirek2> alright
    [17:57] <android272> no
    [17:57] <mirek2> should I work on the tentative design?
    [17:58] <@alexanderWilms> If you wish
    [17:58] <@alexanderWilms> well, theres one problem
    [17:58] <android272> yah
    [17:58] <mirek2> yeah?
    [17:59] <@alexanderWilms> That#s the thumb of my Writer template:
    [17:59] <@alexanderWilms> It only shows the first page
    [17:59] <mirek2> ok...
    [17:59] <@alexanderWilms> So it might not always be the most representative page
    [18:00] <mirek2> In the majority of cases, it is
    [18:00] <@alexanderWilms> ok
    [18:00] <mirek2> if it isn't, it can be replaced manually, no?
    [18:00] <@alexanderWilms> it could
    [18:00] <mirek2> ok, good
    [18:00] <mirek2> so I'll flesh out the tentative design
    [18:01] <mirek2> I'll get to work on it on Thursday
    [18:01] <mirek2> I have a huge exam on Wednesday....
    [18:01] <@alexanderWilms> good luck
    [18:01] <mirek2> thanks :)
    [18:01] <mirek2> moving on to ?
    [18:02] <@alexanderWilms> yes
    [18:02] <mirek2> or maybe we should discuss first, as it's designed like the template dialog
    [18:03] <android272> I talked to peoples from my church about this. they said basically the same thing I said all last meeting. let the user choose what to do.
    [18:03] <android272> the remote
    [18:03] <@alexanderWilms> you mean having different layouts/modes?
    [18:04] <mirek2> this isn't really about user choice -- of course we'll try to cover as broad a feature set as we can
    [18:04] <android272> yes
    [18:04] <mirek2> it's basically about the UI
    [18:04] <mirek2> which we should strive to make as simple as possible
    [18:05] <mirek2> (take a look at the LibreOffice Options dialog, which gives a lot of choice, but isn't really usable for anyone)
    [18:05] <android272> well if we have all the different preferences then we can design them. but if we keep fighting about what to make then we will never design them.
    [18:05] <mirek2> but we shouldn't design all the different UIs
    [18:06] <android272> why not?
    [18:06] <mirek2> that would be a lot of unnecessary coding and would make the UI so much more complex
    [18:06] <mirek2> again, just look at our Options dialog
    [18:06] <mirek2> it offers tons of options
    [18:06] <mirek2> but it's really not to the user's benefit
    [18:06] <mirek2> could we look at first, though?
    [18:07] <mirek2> as that's very closely related to the template dialog
    [18:07] <mirek2> in UI
    [18:07] <mirek2> we'll come back to the remote soon, though, I promise
    [18:07] <android272> ok all we need is: just slides, just remote, just notes, slides with notes, current and next slides... anything else?
    [18:08] <android272> ok
    [18:08] <mirek2> alright, thanks
    [18:08] <android272> we can move on.
    [18:08] <mirek2> great, thanks
    [18:08] <mirek2> we haven't really done much to analyze all the problems
    [18:08] <@alexanderWilms> overlays do not exist on android?
    [18:09] <mirek2> modal dialogs on Android are identical to overlays
    [18:09] <mirek2> except that they don't use the toolbar
    [18:09] <mirek2> our overlay would use the toolbar
    [18:09] <@alexanderWilms> ah
    [18:10] <mirek2> on the desktop, clicking the title of a thumbnail selects a template
    [18:10] <mirek2> however, this isn't standard on Android and might cause some confusion
    [18:10] <android272> are you talking about the templates in the file mannager?
    [18:10] <mirek2> basically, we've agreed the file manager would work just like the template manager
    [18:10] <@alexanderWilms> yes
    [18:11] <android272> yes
    [18:11] <mirek2> and similarly to the desktop version
    [18:11] <mirek2> on the desktop version, clicking the title of a thumbnail selects a template
    [18:11] <mirek2> but on Android, tapping the title launches the document
    [18:11] <mirek2> and selection is done purely through long-tapping
    [18:12] <@alexanderWilms> ok
    [18:12] <mirek2> should we follow the Android HIG and be inconsistent with the desktop version?
    [18:12] <mirek2> or should we do the same as on the desktop and be inconsistent with Android?
    [18:12] <android272> ok well thats normal on android, why do we need everything to be the same?
    [18:12] <mirek2> consistency
    [18:13] <@alexanderWilms> I think consistency with the platform is more important
    [18:13] <mirek2> alright
    [18:13] <mirek2> another option is changing the template dialog's behavior
    [18:13] <android272> I say it should be as close to each other as we can but users will understand what to do because of what internment they are in.
    [18:13] <android272> there can be some minor changes
    [18:14] <mirek2> having a selection mode in the desktop version would make things more consistent
    [18:14] <android272> such as how to select them
    [18:14] <mirek2> alright
    [18:14] <mirek2> alex, your thoughts?
    [18:15] <mirek2> alex, are you there?
    [18:15] <@alexanderWilms> one moment
    [18:15] <@alexanderWilms> So we don't neccesarily need the selection like it is don in Gnome on the desktop?
    [18:16] <@alexanderWilms> "on the desktop version, clicking the title of a thumbnail selects a template"
    [18:16] <android272> even if the user is new to tablets they will quickly realize that, that is the way it is through out the tablet is different from the descktop.
    [18:17] <mirek2> true, but Android might become a desktop OS too and Gnome might become a tablet OS too
    [18:17] <mirek2> the borders between the two are blurring
    [18:18] <@alexanderWilms> We'd have both options to select a template, then?
    [18:18] <mirek2> which options?
    [18:18] <android272> well then what if you are on the tablet in desktop mode and then it would act like the desktop LibreOffice do you think that would be too confusing?
    [18:19] <mirek2> the problem isn't that there's no selection mode on the desktop
    [18:19] <mirek2> the problem is that tapping the title below a thumbnail on a desktop selects the document
    [18:19] <mirek2> whereas on a tablet, it launches the document
    [18:19] <mirek2> in any case, do we agree that on Android, tapping the title below the thumbnail should launch the document?
    [18:20] <@alexanderWilms> Wouldn't tapping the preview do the same?
    [18:20] <mirek2> tapping the preview would launch
    [18:20] <android272> ok hold on, what are we talking about being different, one thing at a time please.
    [18:20] <mirek2> tapping the title below on Android would also launch, on the desktop it would select
    [18:21] <@alexanderWilms> I see
    [18:21] <android272> on the desktop clicking the preview does what, and on the android it does what? as it is currently.
    [18:22] <mirek2> it always launches
    [18:22] <mirek2> no difference there
    [18:22] <android272> ok and the title
    [18:22] <@alexanderWilms> the difference would be between clicking/tapping the title
    [18:22] <mirek2> tapping the title below on Android would also launch, on the desktop it would select
    [18:22] <android272> I do not see the difference
    [18:22] <mirek2> @alex: distros can't tell the difference
    [18:22] <mirek2> tapping = clicking on desktop OS's
    [18:23] <android272> why not have the gnome select on both?
    [18:23] <mirek2> @android: tapping the title below on Android would launch, on the desktop it would select
    [18:23] <mirek2> @android: we've decided against selection mode last meeting
    [18:23] <android272> or have clicking/taping the title select on both
    [18:23] <@alexanderWilms> @mirek: I meant the difference between android and a desktop os
    [18:24] <mirek2> @alex: desktop OS's will increasingly run on tablets, too
    [18:24] <android272> and vise versa
    [18:24] <@alexanderWilms> i know
    [18:24] <mirek2> and the next Android version might be suitable for keyboards/mouse
    [18:25] <android272> my phone may be able to use mouse... not sure im looking into it because I think it would be funny
    [18:25] <mirek2> in any case, do we agree that the Android version should follow the standard Android behavior?
    [18:25] <android272> yes
    [18:25] <@alexanderWilms> yes
    [18:25] <mirek2> ok
    [18:25] <android272> then do we change the desktop
    [18:26] <mirek2> we might
    [18:26] <mirek2> I'll have to talk to the GSoC student first
    [18:26] <mirek2> who was against the selection mode at first
    [18:26] <mirek2> moving on
    [18:27] <android272> I have to go... im going to be a zombie soon... not sleepy going to be in a video soon :)
    [18:27] <mirek2> has anyone given thought to how the template "folder" should look?
    [18:27] <mirek2> @andrew: alright, good night
    [18:27] <android272> as in overly?
    [18:27] <android272> you too
    [18:27] <@alexanderWilms> good night
    [18:27] == android272 [4bb965d7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
    [18:28] <@alexanderWilms> you mean the icon?
    [18:28] <mirek2> either icon or alexanderWilms a folder-ish kind of visual with template previews
    [18:28] <mirek2> either is fine
    [18:28] <@alexanderWilms> I don't think we need previews
    [18:28] <mirek2> alright
    [18:29] <@alexanderWilms> I had an idea, I'll just sketch iut
    [18:32] <mirek2> right now, or in the course of the week?
    [18:32] <@alexanderWilms> right now
    [18:32] <@alexanderWilms> done
    [18:33] <@alexanderWilms>
    [18:33] <@alexanderWilms> It's a bit cliché, though
    [18:34] <mirek2> I prefer your other icon:
    [18:34] <mirek2> this one seems more like "Downloads" to me
    [18:34] <mirek2> remember that templates don't have to be online
    [18:34] <mirek2> some may be authored by the user
    [18:34] <mirek2> the icon looks nice, though
    [18:35] <@alexanderWilms> Now I get it
    [18:35] <@alexanderWilms> One has a folder 'Templates' in the document manager
    [18:35] <@alexanderWilms> ?
    [18:35] <mirek2> it's not really a folder
    [18:36] <@alexanderWilms> it opens the templates view
    [18:36] <mirek2> it doesn't launch an overlay
    [18:36] <mirek2> exactly
    [18:36] <@alexanderWilms> I'd remove the puzzle piece
    [18:36] <@alexanderWilms> would that Tango-ish look fit?
    [18:36] <mirek2> yeah, probably
    [18:37] <mirek2> the problem might be that a) LibreOffice uses a notebook metaphor for templates
    [18:37] <mirek2> b) the "T" would have to be replaced with something international
    [18:38] <mirek2> I'm not really sure the ruler makes much sense there either
    [18:38] <@alexanderWilms> It is rather generic
    [18:38] <@alexanderWilms> T for text
    [18:38] <mirek2> we decided to use "A" for text
    [18:38] <mirek2> as that's a glyph that's available in the Cyrillic and Greek alphabets as well as the Latin one
    [18:38] <@alexanderWilms> ok
    [18:39] <@alexanderWilms> Well, rulers are often used to symbolize templates
    [18:39] <mirek2> it's a minor issue, though, and it's solveable anytime
    [18:39] <mirek2> such as?
    [18:40] <mirek2> which template icon uses a ruler?
    [18:41] <mirek2> afaik, template icons usually adhere to the "notebook" metaphor
    [18:41] <mirek2> alright, I've found some icons with a ruler
    [18:41] <mirek2> nevermind :)
    [18:41] <mirek2> in any case, this isn't a major issue
    [18:41] <@alexanderWilms> the gnome ones
    [18:42] <@alexanderWilms> i think apple uses them too
    [18:42] <@alexanderWilms> Should I upload the tweaked svg to the wiki and mail you the link?
    [18:42] <mirek2> sure
    [18:43] <mirek2> any other issues we need to take care of in the file manager?
    [18:43] <@alexanderWilms> I'm not aware of any
    [18:44] <mirek2> alright
    [18:44] <@alexanderWilms> I think we're done
    [18:44] <mirek2> 2 more whiteboards to go
    [18:44] <mirek2> or do you have to go?
    [18:44] <mirek2> would you like to take care of making the tentative design for the file manager?
    [18:45] <@alexanderWilms> you mean the file viewer
    [18:45] <mirek2> and the impress remote
    [18:45] <mirek2> which we skipped
    [18:45] <@alexanderWilms> ah
    [18:45] <@alexanderWilms> forgot about that
    [18:45] <@alexanderWilms> Yeah, i can do so
    [18:45] <mirek2> ok
    [18:45] <mirek2> I can send you my Inkscape file
    [18:46] <@alexanderWilms> ok
    [18:46] <mirek2> I'll do so later today
    [18:46] <mirek2> if that's ok
    [18:46] <@alexanderWilms> sure
    [18:46] <mirek2>
    [18:47] <mirek2> still needs some design
    [18:47] <mirek2> slide shows should probably work like on the desktop
    [18:47] <@alexanderWilms> yes
    [18:47] <@alexanderWilms>
    [18:47] <mirek2> sheets should probably be shown as tabs
    [18:47] <@alexanderWilms> That doesn't really look native
    [18:48] <mirek2> hold on
    [18:48] <@alexanderWilms> or is it possible to have such party hidden toolbars
    [18:48] <@alexanderWilms> *partly
    [18:49] <mirek2> I'm not sure, actually
    [18:50] <@alexanderWilms> I think it'd be good if we only used completely native widgets
    [18:50] <mirek2> I agree
    [18:52] <mirek2> I need to look at lights-out toolbars again
    [18:52] <@alexanderWilms> ? isn't that just another theme?
    [18:52] <@alexanderWilms> holo dark?
    [18:52] <mirek2> nope
    [18:53] <mirek2> lights-out mode is when the toolbar disappears unless you click on the screen
    [18:53] <mirek2> and the system buttons turn into dots
    [18:53] <mirek2> Google Books uses it
    [18:53] <@alexanderWilms> ah
    [18:54] <@alexanderWilms> So one can implement both modes for he same application?
    [18:54] <@alexanderWilms> If that's the case, why is it an open problem?
    [18:55] <mirek2>
    [18:55] <mirek2> 18:53
    [18:55] <mirek2> but it's not a good showcase of it
    [18:55] <mirek2> @alex: it's just one mode
    [18:57] <mirek2> still looking for a good video
    [18:57] <@alexanderWilms> so we would need to decide whether we want this mode additionally to the normal mode?
    [18:58] <mirek2> we don't need a normal mode
    [18:58] <mirek2> you can show the toolbar by tapping the screen in lights-out mode
    [18:58] <mirek2> which you could sort of see on that video
    [19:00] <@alexanderWilms> would new icons be added to that bar for editing?
    [19:00] <mirek2> we wouldn't use the lights-out mode for editing
    [19:00] <@alexanderWilms> ah ok
    [19:00] <mirek2> it's more appropriate for reading, when you don't want to see the chrome most of the time
    [19:01] <@alexanderWilms> but whats the problem?
    [19:01] <@alexanderWilms> do we decide on using lights-out for the viewer?
    [19:02] <mirek2> yes
    [19:02] <mirek2> and I'm lookin at how lights-out mode handles toolbars
    [19:02] <@alexanderWilms> ok
    [19:03] <mirek2> I think they're overlaid
    [19:03] <mirek2> I'm not sure, though
    [19:04] <mirek2> hm, can't find it right now
    [19:05] <mirek2> what about the way the navigator works
    [19:05] <mirek2>
    [19:05] <@alexanderWilms> looks good
    [19:05] <mirek2> ok, thanks
    [19:06] <mirek2> I feel like the whiteboard is half-finished
    [19:06] <@alexanderWilms> the toolbar in that mock up, is that an overlay as described in the 'open problems' section
    [19:06] <mirek2> yes
    [19:06] <mirek2> I'd prefer it to be dark, though, as in
    [19:07] <mirek2> how about we leave crafting the tentative design to next week?
    [19:07] <mirek2> I feel like we're about half-done with proposals...
    [19:08] <mirek2> what do you think?
    [19:08] <@alexanderWilms> I agree
    [19:08] <@alexanderWilms> Off-topic, but awesome:
    [19:08] <@alexanderWilms> Well, relatively
    [19:08] <mirek2> :)
    [19:09] <@alexanderWilms> Sanity
    [19:09] <mirek2> yay, power off is back :D
    [19:09] <@alexanderWilms> remote control?
    [19:10] <mirek2> yes
    [19:10] <mirek2>
    [19:10] <mirek2> let's go through the open problems
    [19:10] <mirek2> Presentation of Slide Notes
    [19:10] <mirek2> as I said before, I would prefer to present them along with the slide preview
    [19:11] <mirek2> in my mockups, you can even adjust the area the notes get, so you could have a view with just the notes or just the previews...
    [19:11] <mirek2> but it doesn't present the two as different views
    [19:11] <mirek2> what do you think?
    [19:12] <@alexanderWilms> What did we decide on showing the next slide?
    [19:12] <@alexanderWilms> Yeah, makes sense
    [19:12] <@alexanderWilms> It's probably easier for end users
    [19:12] <mirek2> so... solution A, then?
    [19:13] <@alexanderWilms> solution A
    [19:13] <@alexanderWilms> ?
    [19:13] <mirek2> ok, thanks
    [19:14] <@alexanderWilms> That was supposed to be a question
    [19:14] <@alexanderWilms> What is that solution A
    [19:14] <mirek2> the first solution mentioned
    [19:15] <@alexanderWilms> showing them at the same time?
    [19:15] <mirek2> having both in one view
    [19:15] <@alexanderWilms> yes
    [19:16] <mirek2> alright
    [19:16] <mirek2> advancement of slides
    [19:16] <mirek2> I feel like a gesture is most intuitive
    [19:16] <@alexanderWilms> simply sliding?
    [19:16] <mirek2> it's the same as moving through a photo slideshow
    [19:16] <mirek2> or through homescreens
    [19:16] <mirek2> or anything else that's paginated
    [19:17] <@alexanderWilms> alright
    [19:17] <mirek2> I think tapping the thumbnail would be good, too
    [19:17] <mirek2> maybe
    [19:17] <mirek2> or maybe not, nevermind
    [19:17] <@alexanderWilms> I'd expect that something opens
    [19:18] <@alexanderWilms> when tapping on it
    [19:18] <mirek2> ok, nevermind that then
    [19:18] <mirek2> so shall we use a sliding gesture, then?
    [19:18] <@alexanderWilms> yes
    [19:18] <mirek2> alright
    [19:19] <mirek2> Portrait vs. Landscape Mode
    [19:19] <mirek2> I feel like they should show the same info
    [19:19] <mirek2> especially as we won't have different views other than the slide browser
    [19:20] <@alexanderWilms> Is it possible to show a clock in the toolbar?
    [19:20] <@alexanderWilms> or only static icons?
    [19:21] <mirek2> hmph...
    [19:21] <mirek2> I would think it was possible
    [19:21] <mirek2> Apple's Keynote Remote shows the slide number
    [19:21] <mirek2> which is something that changes
    [19:21] <mirek2> but that's on iOS
    [19:22] <mirek2> I really think it's possible to show the clock there, though
    [19:22] <@alexanderWilms> ok
    [19:24] <mirek2> so we'll have similar views when switching orientations?
    [19:24] <mirek2> and put the clock in the action bar
    [19:24] <mirek2> (if possible)
    [19:24] <@alexanderWilms> yes
    [19:24] <mirek2> alright
    [19:24] <mirek2> screen blackout
    [19:25] <mirek2> I proposed to put it in the slide overview
    [19:25] <mirek2>
    [19:25] <mirek2> alternatively, it can be in the overflow menu
    [19:25] <mirek2> what do you think?
    [19:25] <@alexanderWilms> why not the overflow menu?
    [19:25] <@alexanderWilms> I think it's more intuitive that way
    [19:25] <@alexanderWilms> why should one need to change to the slide overview?
    [19:26] <@alexanderWilms> that was a rhetorical question
    [19:26] <@alexanderWilms> I think it is better to put it in the menu
    [19:27] <mirek2> I just feel like the "blackout screen" is a slide itself
    [19:27] <mirek2> and if you want to go to a slide, you go to the slide overview
    [19:27] <mirek2> plus you get a nice preview which you wouldn't get in the overflow menu
    [19:28] <@alexanderWilms> Well, on the desktop it isn't handled like another slide
    [19:28] <@alexanderWilms> and if one quickly needs to black out one doesn't need an obverview
    [19:28] <mirek2> it takes as many steps, though
    [19:28] <mirek2> but I see how it might be inconsistent with the desktop
    [19:29] <mirek2> so overflow menu, then
    [19:29] <@alexanderWilms> yeah, you're right regarding the number of steps
    [19:29] <@alexanderWilms> OK
    [19:29] <mirek2> alright
    [19:29] <mirek2> Auto-declining calls
    [19:30] <mirek2> overflow menu, if it becomes a feature
    [19:30] <@alexanderWilms> I didn't think of this, but it seems useful
    [19:30] <mirek2> or we could have a settings page
    [19:30] <@alexanderWilms> I hope not
    [19:30] <mirek2> it was a problem that a Keynote Remote reviewer brought up
    [19:30] <mirek2> ok, overflow menu it is, then :)
    [19:30] <@alexanderWilms> what exactly?
    [19:31] <@alexanderWilms> the problem
    [19:31] <mirek2> huh?
    [19:31] <mirek2> oh
    [19:31] <mirek2> that Keynote Remote didn't have an auto-decline calls feature
    [19:32] <mirek2> Landscape mode
    [19:32] <@alexanderWilms> Does it even make sense not to have this feature?
    [19:32] <mirek2> I'm not sure
    [19:32] <@alexanderWilms> auto-declining, I mean. Maybe we do'nt need the option to turn it on and off, but I'm not sure.
    [19:32] <mirek2> of course
    [19:32] <mirek2> I would keep it on
    [19:33] <@alexanderWilms> alright
    [19:33] <mirek2> I'm not sure, though
    [19:33] <@alexanderWilms> We don't want to end up like the gnome designers :)
    [19:33] <mirek2> what do you mean?
    [19:33] <mirek2> oversimplifying things?
    [19:33] <@alexanderWilms> Taking all the options away
    [19:33] <mirek2> I actually think they're doing a stand-up job
    [19:33] <@alexanderWilms> yes
    [19:34] <mirek2> except for the power off button
    [19:34] <mirek2> I don't really miss anything else in the UI
    [19:34] <@alexanderWilms> I think switching the icon theme and the gtk theme require gnome-tweaks-tool
    [19:34] <mirek2> sure
    [19:35] <mirek2> I see that as a plus for UI designers, though
    [19:35] <mirek2> they don't have to target a million looks and sizes and icon packs now
    [19:35] <mirek2> thank god
    [19:36] <@alexanderWilms> And the default looks are quite good, too
    [19:36] <mirek2> and Windows, macOS, Windows Phone, iOS, and webOS are the same
    [19:36] <mirek2> yeah, exactly
    [19:36] <mirek2> about the landscape mode
    [19:36] <mirek2> ?
    [19:37] <mirek2> or something else?
    [19:37] <mirek2> also, should the separator be draggable in this case?
    [19:37] <mirek2> it might interfere a bit with scrolling
    [19:37] <@alexanderWilms> does dragging a seperator usually require a long tap?
    [19:37] <mirek2> though not much, as it's not that probably that your finger will land exactly on the separator handle
    [19:38] <mirek2> no, short tap, I believe
    [19:38] <mirek2> actually, drag, not tap
    [19:39] <mirek2> you have to tap the handle first
    [19:39] <@alexanderWilms> I think we should leave it that way
    [19:39] <mirek2> which is a pretty small circle in the middle of the screen
    [19:39] <mirek2> by "leave it that way", do you mean dragging the circle will change the area for notes and thumbnails?
    [19:40] <@alexanderWilms> yes
    [19:40] <mirek2> alright
    [19:41] <mirek2> switching clock modes
    [19:41] <mirek2>
    [19:41] <mirek2> I feel like this is simpler than having buttons in the overflow menu
    [19:42] <mirek2> what do you think?
    [19:42] <@alexanderWilms> seems more intuitive to tap on the clock directly
    [19:42] <@alexanderWilms> instead of using the menu
    [19:42] <mirek2> I agree
    [19:43] <mirek2> so should we use my proposal as is?
    [19:43] <mirek2> or are there some problems that I've overlooked?
    [19:44] <@alexanderWilms> you're partly showing the next slide in a perspective
    [19:45] <@alexanderWilms> do we still want that?
    [19:45] <mirek2> I meant just with the clock, but we can talk about it in general
    [19:45] <@alexanderWilms> The clock is good so far
    [19:45] <mirek2> I would want it, yes
    [19:45] <mirek2> it doesn't take up much space
    [19:46] <@alexanderWilms> might be useful
    [19:46] <mirek2> and it previews the next slide, which could be helpful to some
    [19:46] <@alexanderWilms> would it use a nice coverflow animation (If the GSoC student has enogh time)
    [19:46] <mirek2> in landscape mode, if the note pane was hidden, it could show the next and previous slides with just a slide tilt
    [19:47] <mirek2> it should
    [19:48] <@alexanderWilms> how does one hide the note pane?
    [19:48] <@alexanderWilms> via the menu?
    [19:48] <mirek2> by dragging the separator
    [19:48] <mirek2> using the circular handle
    [19:48] <mirek2>
    [19:48] <@alexanderWilms> so the seperator would still be visible?
    [19:49] <mirek2> yes
    [19:49] <mirek2> was it not supposed to?
    [19:49] <@alexanderWilms> I didn't think about it that much
    [19:50] <mirek2> alright
    [19:50] <@alexanderWilms> If one does
    [19:50] <mirek2> if one does?
    [19:51] <mirek2> what did you mean by that?
    [19:51] <@alexanderWilms> If one drags it down to the bottom in portrait mode, how does the size of the slides change?
    [19:52] <@alexanderWilms> they can't become oven bigger, right?
    [19:52] <mirek2> the slide thumbnail gets bigger, the next and previous slides on the side get more tilted until they disappear
    [19:53] <@alexanderWilms> so it would simply be surrounded by a lot of whitespace
    [19:53] <mirek2> on the top and bottom, yes
    [19:53] <@alexanderWilms> ok
    [19:54] <mirek2> alright
    [19:54] <mirek2> the slide browser
    [19:54] <mirek2>
    [19:54] <mirek2> I imagine it like this, of course without the blank screen
    [19:54] <@alexanderWilms> looks good
    [19:55] <mirek2> no issues with it, then?
    [19:55] <@alexanderWilms> no
    [19:55] <mirek2> ok
    [19:56] <mirek2> I don't think we know how the user will connect to the computer yet
    [19:56] <mirek2> that's something for the developer to determine
    [19:56] <mirek2> so I guess we can't work on "Initial setup" yet...
    [19:56] <mirek2> or am I wrong?
    [19:56] <@alexanderWilms> He wanted to use bluetooth and wireless lan, I think
    [19:57] <@alexanderWilms> plus an additional PIN to avoid pranks
    [19:57] <mirek2> how would the PIN work?
    [19:57] <@alexanderWilms> I guess the BT/WLAN doesn't matter
    [19:58] <mirek2> would the desktop app generate a PIN and the remote approve it or vice versa?
    [19:58] <@alexanderWilms> you set it in impress and need to type it in the remote
    [19:58] <mirek2> ok
    [19:59] <mirek2> do we need to design a UI for the BT/WLAN connection, or is that handled by the OS?
    [19:59] <mirek2> in Keynote Remote, the PIN is generated by the remote
    [19:59] <mirek2>
    [20:00] <mirek2> maybe we should auto-generate a passcode
    [20:00] <@alexanderWilms> I think it's handled by the OS
    [20:00] <mirek2> would probably be safer (people couldn't constantly choose 1234) and easier for the user
    [20:01] <mirek2> where in Impress do you think should be the entry point for the passcode?
    [20:02] <mirek2> "Slide Show>Connect with Impress Remote"?
    [20:02] <@alexanderWilms> Yeah
    [20:02] <@alexanderWilms> "For authentification I thought it would be easiest to have a passphrase
    [20:02] <@alexanderWilms> which is used to encrypt the serial stream between LO and the app --
    [20:02] <@alexanderWilms> this is mainly to prevent people playing pranks rather than to provide
    [20:02] <@alexanderWilms> high security. "
    [20:02] <mirek2> of course
    [20:02] <mirek2> alright
    [20:02] <mirek2> do you want to work on the tentative design or should I?
    [20:03] <mirek2> (I'd send you the SVG source of mine, of course.)
    [20:03] <@alexanderWilms> for the remote?
    [20:03] <@alexanderWilms> I can do that
    [20:03] <mirek2> alright
    [20:03] <mirek2> I think we're done here
    [20:04] <mirek2> I'll put up the IRC log on the wiki
    [20:04] <@alexanderWilms> thx
    [20:04] <@alexanderWilms> I'm so tired now
    [20:04] <mirek2> :) ok
    [20:04] <@alexanderWilms> when will you send the svgs over?
    [20:04] <mirek2> sometime today
    [20:05] <mirek2> I might have to clean them up a bit, as they contain some unnecessary elements
    [20:05] <@alexanderWilms> See you next week, then
    [20:05] <mirek2> see you
    [20:05] <mirek2> :)