Design/Meetings/2012-05-19

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  • Date/Time: 2012-05-19, 1600 UTC (the time below is 2 hours ahead of UTC)
  • Location: IRC, channel #libreoffice-design

Attendees

Log

The beginning of the conversation got lost. Here's a quick summary of the half-hour before the log below:

  • mirek2 comes in half an hour late, apologizes
  • discussion about whether to have the Click or Tap blog on the TDF planet -- mirek2 will write to the website mailing list
  • we discuss whether the workflow for several designs is ready
    • we decide that voting will take place on the wiki rather than on Google Plus, the mailing list, or the IRC chat
    • mirek2 will write to the mailing list about including the Poll2 extension on the wiki
  • discussion about the ESC call -- Alex is attending this coming week
  • the mysterious guateguy appears and then disappears soon afterwards
  • discussion about the impress remote whiteboard: discussing whether to show both the previous slide and the next slide, or just the next slide
[19:00] <mirek2> which is fine...
[19:00] <@AlexanderWilms> I think the previous one is not that important and would mostly be a waste of screen estate
[19:00] <mirek2> yeah, I guess you're right
[19:01] <mirek2> the orange highlight is used too much, I believe
[19:01] <astron247> yes.
[19:01] <mirek2> though that's a small issue
[19:01] <@AlexanderWilms> Does an android app show it's icon in the action bar by default?
[19:01] <astron247> could we use libo green..?
[19:01] <mirek2> I'd like to use Impress orange...
[19:01] <mirek2> or at least an orange that works well with Android
[19:02] <mirek2> @alex: yes, but doesn't have to
[19:02] <@AlexanderWilms> ok
[19:02] <mirek2> about the highlight: I don't think it's needed on the slide picker (maybe just to highlight the current slide)
[19:02] <@AlexanderWilms> Does an application usually use it's own font color or the system default?
[19:03] <astron247> always roboto.
[19:03] <@AlexanderWilms> yes, but what about the color?
[19:03] <astron247> sorry
[19:04] <mirek2> I believe well-designed apps often have their own color schemes
[19:04] <astron247> hm... about the options...
[19:05] <astron247> id replace "hardware buttons" with "volume rocker" or similar if thats what you mean
[19:05] <mirek2> I agree
[19:05] <mirek2> or "Volume buttons"
[19:05] <@AlexanderWilms> ok
[19:05] <@AlexanderWilms> makes sense
[19:05] <mirek2> also, on the options page, I'd prefer to use gray for the text
[19:05] <astron247> but anyway, why do we need the option at all?
[19:06] <mirek2> the developer asked for it
[19:06] <mirek2> it's useful when you need to switch slides easily, without looking at the screen
[19:06] <mirek2> hardware buttons are always easier to target than software buttons
[19:06] <astron247> sure, but if its always enabled whats the hurt?
[19:07] <mirek2> and a swipe is difficult to do with one hand
[19:07] <@AlexanderWilms> so should it be enabled by default and the option be removed?
[19:07] <mirek2> it's remotely possible that the phone might be playing music
[19:07] <mirek2> or producing some other sound
[19:08] <mirek2> would be unexpected for the presenter to find out that he can't change the volume...
[19:08] <astron247> well its possible that the presentation contains sound
[19:08] <astron247> but can we even manage that from the remote?
[19:08] <mirek2> that wouldn't be handled by the remote, though
[19:08] <mirek2> hm, that's an interesting idea
[19:09] <mirek2> though far too complicated, I'm afraid
[19:09] <astron247> in any case, the slide thing should be more important, i guess
[19:09] <@AlexanderWilms> yes
[19:09] <astron247> id opt for a little tutorial to explain what the volume rocker does in that case
[19:09] <astron247> (maybe)
[19:10] <mirek2> no, we shouldn't have tutorials
[19:10] <astron247> why?
[19:10] <mirek2> this is a simple piece of software
[19:10] <mirek2> we should make it as simple as possible
[19:10] <mirek2> the same reason why we don't have tutorials in LibreOffice
[19:11] <@AlexanderWilms> It should be mentioned in the LO manual on the wiki, but I think it is self-explanatory
[19:11] <mirek2> everything should just be straightforward
[19:11] <astron247> (anecdote: its interesting that i always find out about the functionality of android apps by going to their options
[19:11] <astron247> )
[19:11] <mirek2> :)
[19:11] <astron247> right, but having one/two screens on first start doesnt seem to hurt so much (1: pairing, 2: functionality tut)
[19:12] <mirek2> if the user really wants to use the feature, he'll go to "Options"
[19:12] == michelr [~michel@mir31-7-78-242-216-54.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #libreoffice-design
[19:12] <mirek2> fortunately, the options dialog isn't as unwieldy as that of Libreoffice
[19:12] <mirek2> hi michelr
[19:13] <mirek2> discussing the impress remote right now
[19:14] <mirek2> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Impress_remote
[19:14] <mirek2> anyway, I would be against any in-software tutorials
[19:14] <mirek2> especially when our software is so simple
[19:14] <mirek2> if the user doesn't discover the option (even though it's the first Options entry), then it's not the end of the world
[19:16] <mirek2> so would it be ok if we kept it as is?
[19:16] <michelr> hi everybody, i'll mostly listen : so much time away from reading my LO-design mails
[19:16] <@AlexanderWilms> ok, hi
[19:16] <@AlexanderWilms> Maybe we could show the options view when the app is started
[19:17] <mirek2> hm...
[19:17] <@AlexanderWilms> That would make it fairly obvious and the user needs to specify a cimputer anyway
[19:18] <mirek2> I don't think it's as user-friendly, though
[19:18] <mirek2> I think it's actually quite odd when the first screen of an app is options...
[19:18] <mirek2> I'd prefer a guided setup...
[19:18] <@AlexanderWilms> The computer selection screen maybe?
[19:19] <mirek2> that screen has an up icon
[19:19] <@AlexanderWilms> So that guided setup would pretty much be a tutorial, right?
[19:19] <mirek2> no, rather a walkthrough
[19:19] <mirek2> one that happens every time
[19:19] <mirek2> as it's necessary to set up every time
[19:19] <mirek2> whereas the different options can be setup once
[19:20] <astron247> afk
[19:20] <mirek2> (it's probable that a user that uses the hardware buttons to switch slides will always use them)
[19:21] <mirek2> if we could go a bit off-topic for a moment...
[19:21] <mirek2> ...we still need to address connection failure
[19:22] <mirek2> (i.e. if the connection fails, what should we show and how should resume work?)
[19:23] <mirek2> alex, you there?
[19:23] <@AlexanderWilms> show a warning sign and show a button that tries to reconnect with the last settings
[19:23] <astron247> sound good.
[19:24] <mirek2> could you add it to the tentative design?
[19:24] <@AlexanderWilms> sure
[19:24] <mirek2> great
[19:24] <astron247> okay, just so i understand, what is set up every time you start the app?
[19:24] <mirek2> the computer, after which the PIN is entered...
[19:25] <astron247> but usually youll present with your own pc, no?
[19:25] <mirek2> yes
[19:25] <astron247> so no need to add a new pc every time
[19:26] <mirek2> ok, so the software should connect automatically to your pc
[19:26] <mirek2> if the PIN is entered
[19:26] <astron247> okay...
[19:26] <@AlexanderWilms> Use the last settings
[19:26] <astron247> exactly
[19:27] <mirek2> right
[19:27] <@AlexanderWilms> after starting it the first time you are shown the computer and PIn screen, afterwards you need to open them via theoptions
[19:27] <mirek2> there needs to be a way to show which computers have the PIN entered then, and which dont't
[19:27] <@AlexanderWilms> ?
[19:27] <mirek2> @alex: yes
[19:28] <mirek2> or how about this:
[19:28] <mirek2> the first screen will show "connecting to <default computer>" along with a "Switch computer" button
[19:28] <mirek2> if it can't connect, it will just show the selection of computer
[19:28] <mirek2> +s
[19:29] <mirek2> what do you think?
[19:30] <astron247> do you know how fast connecting is?
[19:30] <michelr> seems simple and ok
[19:30] <astron247> if its only a second, then thats effectively faux-control
[19:31] == chombium [~chombium@77.28.220.108] has joined #libreoffice-design
[19:31] <astron247> (having the switch button)
[19:31] <mirek2> alright, then let's just connect automatically
[19:31] <mirek2> and if we can't connect, show a choice of computers
[19:32] <mirek2> picking a computer will show the PIN screen, telling the user to enter the PIN on the desktop software
[19:32] <astron247> but only if that pcs not set up yet..?
[19:33] <mirek2> only if it can't automatically connect
[19:33] <michelr> the PIN is managed by the OS or by libreoffice ?
[19:33] <mirek2> libreoffice
[19:33] <mirek2> a couple  of thoughts, though
[19:33] <mirek2> if a user refreshes their PIN on the device, he'll have to set up all of his computers again
[19:34] <astron247> so why not one pin per device?
[19:34] <@AlexanderWilms> wouldn't that complicate things a lot?
[19:34] <astron247> youll only set up one at a time anyway.
[19:35] <astron247> and why would users want to change the pin?
[19:35] <astron247> isnt that normally randomly generated?
[19:35] <mirek2> I also don't see the use case there
[19:35] <@AlexanderWilms> yes
[19:36] <mirek2> I guess having a PIN per device wouldn't hurt
[19:36] <mirek2> what about public computers?
[19:36] <astron247> so the scenario youre thinking is...
[19:37] <mirek2> student gives a presentation at a school
[19:37] <astron247> user is at a conference and uses the conference laptop
[19:37] <mirek2> or that, sure
[19:37] <astron247> and then could control the laptop even after his presentation?
[19:37] <mirek2> exactly
[19:38] <michelr> IIRC, when synchro on mac os, the PIN is random and has a short live
[19:38] <mirek2> that sounds pretty good
[19:39] <mirek2> what do you think?
[19:39] <michelr> maybe have an option to use a random-PIN (enter each time) or use the IMEI (forever) ?
[19:39] <@AlexanderWilms> So as long as the PIN is still valid the remote tries to connect to the last PC, if thats not possible on  can select another one?
[19:40] <astron247> i know that when i pair my phone via bluetooth here, it remains paired forever...
[19:40] <mirek2> what software do you use?
[19:40] <astron247> just gnome
[19:40] <astron247> (3)
[19:41] <mirek2> on the phone?
[19:41] <astron247> well my bt is off all the time on both devices when its not in use.
[19:42] <astron247> but after activating it i dont think i need to pair it again
[19:42] <astron247> activating bt, that is
[19:42] <astron247> (bt sucks power, thus i turn it off
[19:42] <astron247> )
[19:43] <@AlexanderWilms> Should we store several connections or only the last one?
[19:43] <astron247> several is fine with me
[19:44] <astron247> what i would propose is that after youre through with the last slide, the pc would ask if it should disconnect
[19:44] <astron247> from the phone
[19:44] <mirek2> that sounds really good
[19:44] <mirek2> imho
[19:44] <astron247> maybe directly inside the black screen or after in a non-modal bar
[19:45] <astron247> using the black screen might not be such a good idea though, because some people have it open while their stil q&a'ing
[19:45] <@AlexanderWilms> yes
[19:45] <astron247> (then it would look unprofessional
[19:45] <astron247> )
[19:46] <@AlexanderWilms> so having that inside the RC dialog?
[19:46] <astron247> do we have a mockup of that?
[19:46] <@AlexanderWilms> it's part of the tentative design
[19:46] <astron247> (im not sure, because i dunno yet if it would be open while presenting
[19:46] <astron247> )
[19:46] <mirek2> it shouldn't be
[19:47] <astron247> oh, the enter pin thing?
[19:47] <astron247> then: no
[19:48] <@AlexanderWilms> show a small pop-up?
[19:48] <astron247> non-modal bar.
[19:49] <astron247> christoph made mockups of that back in ooo times and we really really need those to get rid of pesky alerts
[19:49] <michelr> after the last slide, why not come back to a screen with the list of opened files in Impress ?
[19:49] <mirek2> like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infobar ?
[19:50] <astron247> yes
[19:50] <mirek2> @michelr: after the last slide, Impress should just show the presentation in edit mode, just like it does now
[19:51] <astron247> ive talked to michael abotu this at the hackfest shortly and he seemed open to it... no clear intention though
[19:51] <astron247> (to do it)
[19:52] <mirek2> @astron: about what exactly?
[19:52] <astron247> about the non-modal bars
[19:52] <michelr> @mirek2 : i was thinking about the screen of the rem��ote : maybe the user want to continue with another slideshow already open in Impress
[19:52] <astron247> found it! https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Proposal_DirectManipulationSnippets
[19:53] <@AlexanderWilms> Sure, if thats possiblw within this GSoC
[19:54] <mirek2> yes, something like https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/File:DiMaS_Document_HiddenNotesPane.png
[19:54] <astron247> yes
[19:54] <mirek2> so, alex, could you add these to the tentative design?
[19:55] <@AlexanderWilms> yes
[19:55] <astron247> but the timer thing is annoying ... theres areason why no one does it.
[19:55] <mirek2> what exactly?
[19:56] <@AlexanderWilms> that circle indicator
[19:56] <astron247> well its permanently animated it seems, so it draws your attention all the time even though youre sposed to be able to ignore it
[19:56] <astron247> @alex, yes!
[19:57] <mirek2> what circle indicator?
[19:57] <astron247> to the let
[19:57] <@AlexanderWilms> https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/File:DiMaS_Document_HiddenNotesPane.png
[19:57] <astron247> +f
[19:57] <mirek2> I agree
[19:57] <mirek2> we shouldn't have a timer
[19:57] <mirek2> these things shouldn't disappear, ever
[19:58] <mirek2> if they're not important, then they shouldn't even appear
[19:58] <astron247> although, doing a timer that only updates after thirty second, then after twenty and then five should be okay
[19:58] <astron247> what if this system is so successful, that people generally have five uch panels open all the time?
[19:58] <astron247> +s
[19:59] <mirek2> this is the first panel we're adding
[19:59] <astron247> exaggering
[19:59] <mirek2> we should make sure that we don't overuse these panels
[19:59] <mirek2> For example, I don't think we need a "Show notes" bar
[19:59] <astron247> okay
[20:00] <astron247> possibly
[20:00] <mirek2> the "disconnect device" bar is pretty necessary
[20:00] <mirek2> at least for public computers
[20:01] <astron247> is there any other ui for connecting/disconnecting in libo itself than the one alert in the mockup?
[20:01] <@AlexanderWilms> Anything else?
[20:02] <mirek2> @astron: there should be
[20:02] <astron247> i agree.
[20:02] <mirek2> how about a "disconnect device" in the PIN dialog
[20:02] <mirek2> would do the same as deleting the PIN from the dialog
[20:03] <astron247> i guess we need a listing of paired devices like on the phone
[20:03] <astron247> anyway, i would like to go offline in the next few minutes, though...
[20:03] <mirek2> will you come back?
[20:04] <astron247> how long do you plan to be here?
[20:04] <mirek2> we should discuss all of the GSoC project whiteboards...
[20:04] <mirek2> who knows how long that will take...
[20:05] <astron247> well maybe but only shortly. i still have to hand in sth on monday.
[20:05] <mirek2> ok
[20:05] <mirek2> anything you'd like to say about any of the whiteboards before you go?
[20:06] <astron247> i havent done very much last week so no right now...
[20:06] <astron247> but if youve got questions that are hard to decide, maybe save them for when i come back dunno
[20:06] <astron247> anyway, id like to ask you for two things:
[20:06] <@AlexanderWilms> Alright
[20:07] <mirek2> yes?
[20:07] <astron247> alex, could you discuss the permanency of the pin with the devs, please?
[20:07] <astron247> and all of you, could you test libo master on windows?
[20:07] <@AlexanderWilms> ok
[20:07] <@AlexanderWilms> I only have Linux
[20:08] <@AlexanderWilms> We have a family laptop, though
[20:08] <astron247> (kendy has apparently done some change to how menus look – glass effect. would like opinions on that
[20:08] <astron247> )
[20:08] <mirek2> I also only have Linux
[20:08] <astron247> (I would like to have opinions)
[20:08] <@AlexanderWilms> I could try a virtual machine
[20:08] <@AlexanderWilms> + a windows demo
[20:08] <astron247> i havent looked at it yet, but when i reboot my laptop in the next days, ill have a look
[20:08] <astron247> @alex: great!
[20:09] <astron247> kendy shoudl also post a screen of it some time
[20:09] <mirek2> good to hear
[20:09] <mirek2> I'm meeting kendy on tuesday
[20:09] <astron247> in person?
[20:09] <mirek2> yes
[20:09] <astron247> niceee
[20:09] <astron247> okay, anyway, ill go now.
[20:10] <mirek2> he wants to discuss some simple ways to make libo look better
[20:10] <mirek2> @astron: alright, see you later
[20:10] <astron247> cool
[20:10] <astron247> till later.
[20:10] <@AlexanderWilms> Bye
[20:10] == astron247 [~frootzowr@dslb-188-106-214-075.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: astron247]
[20:10] <mirek2> anyway, now that we're on the topic, do you have any ideas for simple UI improvements?
[20:11] <mirek2> alex?
[20:11] <@AlexanderWilms> I'm thinking
[20:12] <@AlexanderWilms> the default colors for shapes
[20:12] <michelr> 1 - simplify some menus
[20:12] <michelr> 2 - enhance the "bullet/numbering" button in the toolbar
[20:13] <mirek2> enhance? what do you mean?
[20:13] <mirek2> @alex: could you make some color suggestions, if you have time?
[20:13] <michelr> for 2 : add a dropdown that allow to directly choose a type of bullet
[20:14] <@AlexanderWilms> @michelr sounds good
[20:14] <mirek2> I agree
[20:15] <@AlexanderWilms> @ mirek only using the current default colors?
[20:16] <michelr> it would change the bullets/numbering of the current selection only ; it would propose a ultra simplified view of the "bullet/numbering dialog"
[20:16] <mirek2> @alex: no, feel free to play with the colors
[20:17] <michelr> i'll do a mockup asap ;-) and idem for the menus
[20:17] <mirek2> @michelr: ok, I'll suggest it
[20:17] <mirek2> no mockup needed for the menus
[20:17] <mirek2> just tell me what would change
[20:17] <mirek2> they shouldn't change visually
[20:19] <@AlexanderWilms> What I imagined: http://ubuntuone.com/5QL7GnADN0LNMacMgLCMna
[20:19] <mirek2> I like it
[20:19] <mirek2> is that a Tango color?
[20:20] <@AlexanderWilms> It's diagram 1
[20:20] <@AlexanderWilms> probably not, but quite similar
[20:21] <mirek2> alright
[20:21] <mirek2> btw, I just noticed how awful the icons are for 3D objects
[20:21] <@AlexanderWilms> I think they are part of the crystal icon set
[20:22] <mirek2> when you click the 3D arrow, you get a weird combination of icon sets
[20:22] <@AlexanderWilms> I know
[20:22] <@AlexanderWilms> btw. is there some progress on the Tango icons?
[20:22] <mirek2> ask Astron -- he's in charge of those
[20:22] <mirek2> not as far as I know
[20:23] <michelr> I have others ideas, but they're not "simple" to dev : a panel to group view options ; widgets to easily change appearance order in Impress, table tools
[20:23] <mirek2> yeah, I need some simple things
[20:23] <mirek2> how would you feel about left/right/center alignment of toolbars
[20:24] <mirek2> and locking toolbars by default
[20:26] <mirek2> ?
[20:26] <@AlexanderWilms> I'm not sure about aligning toolbars on the right/left
[20:26] <mirek2> me neither, that's why I ask
[20:27] <@AlexanderWilms> AT least in LO it feels a bit strange
[20:27] <mirek2> but, theoretically, it would allow some nice visual balance down the line
[20:27] <mirek2> like having a toolbar at the right and a toolbar on the left
[20:27] <mirek2> http://clickortap.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/overflow.png
[20:27] <@AlexanderWilms> If the shapes were at the left, what toolbar would be at the right?
[20:27] <mirek2> or just one centered toolbar
[20:28] <michelr> isn't it related to the langage ? ("left to right" or "right to left" )
[20:28] <mirek2> that too
[20:28] <mirek2> it would be
[20:28] <mirek2> it would still be, I mean
[20:29] <@AlexanderWilms> In your proposal it doesn't really look like a toolbar
[20:29] <@AlexanderWilms> it rather seems to belong to the background
[20:29] <mirek2> what do you mean?
[20:29] <mirek2> ignore the look of the icons
[20:29] <mirek2> the toolbar background is default to Gnome
[20:30] <@AlexanderWilms> No i mean there's no border between the icons and the document
[20:31] <mirek2> you mean the icons on the left...
[20:31] <mirek2> ignore that for now
[20:31] <mirek2> I meant the horizontal toolbar on the top
[20:33] <@AlexanderWilms> Maybe it'd be nice to aling them evenly spaced
[20:33] <mirek2> what do you mean?
[20:34] <mirek2> btw, Firefox also has left/right/center alignment, only it does it with "flexible space"
[20:36] <mirek2> anyway, it was just a thought -- we could discuss it more in depth on the mailing list
[20:36] <mirek2> unless anyone has any more suggestions for simple design improvements, we should go back to the impress remote
[20:36] <@AlexanderWilms> yes, let's do that
[20:37] <mirek2> despite the fact that I used the lights-out mode in my original proposal, I would be against it now
[20:37] <@AlexanderWilms> so will you talk to kendy about those suggestions?
[20:37] <mirek2> yes
[20:37] <mirek2> Tuesday
[20:37] <@AlexanderWilms> in the file manager?
[20:37] <mirek2> if you have any more, put them on the mailing list (or e-mail me personally)
[20:38] <mirek2> @alex: there too
[20:38] <mirek2> but I was originally talking about the remote
[20:39] <mirek2> the back button might be useful for getting back to another series of slides
[20:39] <mirek2> use case: user has his presentation, then uses the slide picker to skip to a different slide, then wants to get back
[20:39] <@AlexanderWilms> ok
[20:39] <mirek2> the back button should go to the slide overview (i.e. the last screen, not the last slide), then the last-seen slide
[20:40] <mirek2> the back button shouldn't be used to go to the previous slide
[20:40] <mirek2> it should go to the previous screen
[20:40] <mirek2> at least that's how I see it
[20:41] <mirek2> thoughts?
[20:41] <@AlexanderWilms> is that how it works usually?
[20:42] <mirek2> I think so
[20:42] <@AlexanderWilms> ok
[20:42] <mirek2> could you add it to the proposal, then?
[20:42] <@AlexanderWilms> same for the file manager
[20:42] <@AlexanderWilms> ?
[20:42] <mirek2> yes, but not for the file viewer
[20:42] <mirek2> the file viewer should put focus on the file
[20:43] <@AlexanderWilms> ok
[20:43] <michelr> �in android there is the back and the up buttons : http://developer.android.com/design/patterns/navigation.html
[20:43] <mirek2> yes, what about them?
[20:44] <michelr> the back should come back in the history --> previous slide
[20:44] <mirek2> oh, you're just pointing out that it goes "through the history of screens the user"?
[20:44] <mirek2> @michelr: actually, it should go to the last screen, which isn't the previous slide
[20:44] <mirek2> the previous slide was shown on the same screen
[20:45] <mirek2> just like when you scroll a document, you're still on the same screen
[20:45] <michelr> yes, we can have several interpretation for the back button
[20:45] <mirek2> or maybe the previous slide is counted as a separate screen, I'm not sure...
[20:45] <mirek2> do you know how the button works with the photos app?
[20:45] <mirek2> does it go to the previous photo?
[20:45] <mirek2> or to the photo overview?
[20:46] <mirek2> (I don't own a smartphone, so I don't know)
[20:46] <mirek2> (awk for a sec)
[20:46] <michelr> currently testing...
[20:46] <mirek2> afk, I mean
[20:48] <michelr> in my gallery app, i change photo with a swipe
[20:48] <michelr> after several swipe, the back button comes back to the list of galeries
[20:48] <@AlexanderWilms> same with the slides
[20:48] <mirek2> yeah, should do the same with slides
[20:49] <michelr> Maybe it depends of the gesture
[20:49] <michelr> if we change with a swipe --> same screen
[20:49] <mirek2> we'll use a swipe gesture too
[20:49] <michelr> if we change with a tap --> new screen
[20:49] <mirek2> that would be too confusing, IMHO
[20:50] <mirek2> I'd prefer to go with same screen, always
[20:50] <mirek2> anyway, is that it?
[20:50] <mirek2> for the remote control?
[20:52] <mirek2> can we move onto the next GSoC project?
[20:52] <@AlexanderWilms> I think so
[20:52] <mirek2> alright
[20:52] <@AlexanderWilms> yes
[20:52] <michelr> ok
[20:53] <mirek2> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/File_Manager
[20:53] <mirek2> some minor design issues:
[20:54] <mirek2> the tab text doesn't appear to be Roboto
[20:54] <mirek2> also, we probably want to present the document types in the same order as on https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Templates_and_documents_rework
[20:55] <mirek2> I'd prefer to list Presentations before spreadsheets, as they're more visual...
[20:55] <@AlexanderWilms> ok
[20:55] <mirek2> and more common, from my experience
[20:55] <@AlexanderWilms> I think draw won't be ported, though
[20:56] <mirek2> we'll add a "Drawings" tab if it is
[20:56] <@AlexanderWilms> sure
[20:56] <mirek2> I'd rename the "Toggle Grid/List" to "List View"
[20:56] <@AlexanderWilms> I currently don't have roboto installed, but I think that's not really important
[20:56] <mirek2> I could change the fonts, if you'd like
[20:57] <@AlexanderWilms> can menu entries change
[20:57] <@AlexanderWilms> ?
[20:57] <mirek2> it can be quite helpful to see what it will actually look like
[20:57] <mirek2> @alex: yes
[20:57] <@AlexanderWilms> ok
[20:57] <mirek2> on Android, that is
[20:57] <mirek2> just like toolbar buttons can change
[20:57] <mirek2> toolbar buttons=menu entries in Android
[20:57] <@AlexanderWilms> I can send you the svg
[20:57] <mirek2> ok
[20:58] <mirek2> that'd be great
[20:58] <@AlexanderWilms> can one define how many menu/Action bar entries are shown as icon and how many as menu entries?
[20:58] <mirek2> partly, yes
[20:59] <mirek2> if the toolbar icons don't fit on screen, then they're shown in the overflow menu
[20:59] <mirek2> but you can prevent buttons from ever appearing as icons
[21:00] <@AlexanderWilms> any other issues?
[21:00] <mirek2> I'd prefer to have the list view to only show previews or very tiny thumbnails
[21:00] <mirek2> like Google Docs
[21:00] <mirek2> I believe that people will use the list view if they can't tell what the document is from the thumbnail
[21:01] <mirek2> in that case, they need to see the title, not the thumbnail
[21:01] <mirek2> an icon might be more helpful to them, since it will help them determine the file type
[21:01] <mirek2> whereas a tiny thumbnail would be hard for them to decipher
[21:01] <@AlexanderWilms> ok
[21:02] <mirek2> I'd also prefer to have the folder title centered and in blue, as is standard for Android
[21:02] <mirek2> like https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:T_fold.png
[21:02] <mirek2> just in blue Roboto font
[21:03] <@AlexanderWilms> for the overlay?
[21:03] <mirek2> yes
[21:03] <@AlexanderWilms> ok
[21:03] <mirek2> I can take care of that, if you want
[21:03] <mirek2> when you send me the SVG
[21:04] <@AlexanderWilms> Sure, 'll do the changes and share it
[21:04] <mirek2> great
[21:05] <mirek2> that's all for me
[21:05] <mirek2> next whiteboard, then?
[21:05] <@AlexanderWilms> ok
[21:05] <mirek2> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Templates_and_documents_rework
[21:06] <mirek2> I'll work on the Options dialog and the properties pane when I have time
[21:06] <@AlexanderWilms> ok
[21:06] <mirek2> I don't think we need them in time for the start of coding
[21:06] <@AlexanderWilms> Why are the online templates and the ordinary folder not looking the same?
[21:07] <mirek2> online folders aren't exactly ordinary folders
[21:07] <mirek2> that's another thing that I need to design
[21:07] <mirek2> they change, for one thing
[21:07] <mirek2> and they hold many more templates
[21:08] <mirek2> and there's a need to sort them based on popularity/number of downloads
[21:08] <@AlexanderWilms> Maybe just an icon?
[21:08] <mirek2> if you can design one, that'd be nice
[21:08] <mirek2> I don't think I'd be able to design a good-looking icon for that myself
[21:09] <@AlexanderWilms> Maybe the blueprint used in the file manager plus a download arrow?
[21:09] <mirek2> sounds pretty good
[21:09] <michelr> why not define 'online' as a search criteria ?
[21:09] <@AlexanderWilms> sure
[21:10] <mirek2> what do you mean?
[21:10] <mirek2> search would work like this: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:T_green.png
[21:10] <mirek2> online templates would appear on the bottom
[21:10] <michelr> the location of the template (local, online...) may be a criteria
[21:11] <mirek2> I think the current solution is simpler
[21:11] <@AlexanderWilms> depending on the number of templates that might be useful
[21:11] <michelr> i taught that some users (entreprises...) may need to define their own behaviour for templates
[21:12] <mirek2> how?
[21:12] <michelr> ex : all templates may be in a NAS in the local network ; forbidden to acces outside
[21:12] <michelr> or forbidden to have local templates
[21:13] <mirek2> if that access is forbidden, then the templates won't appear as part of the search
[21:14] <mirek2> about the online templates icon, though
[21:14] <mirek2> I'm a bit hesitant about it now
[21:14] <michelr> not easy to explain with text, i'll do a mockup asap !
[21:14] <mirek2> ok
[21:15] <@AlexanderWilms> good
[21:15] <michelr> question : do you plan to have only one level of hierarchy ?
[21:15] <mirek2> yes
[21:15] <mirek2> about the icon:
[21:16] <mirek2> unlike the templates icon in Android, this one will launch an overlay, just like other folders
[21:16] <mirek2> also, it might feel strange to tap the templates icon in Android only to see a very similar icon for online templates in the same spot
[21:16] <@AlexanderWilms> should it look folder like?
[21:16] <mirek2> I'd like it to
[21:17] <mirek2> with thumbnails
[21:17] <mirek2> how many thumbnails would you suggest to show?
[21:17] <mirek2> 3? 5?
[21:17] <@AlexanderWilms> on the fron?
[21:17] <@AlexanderWilms> *t
[21:18] <mirek2> as the folder "icon"
[21:19] <@AlexanderWilms> ?
[21:20] <mirek2> instead of the "Online templates" circle on https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Templs.png
[21:23] <@AlexanderWilms> so the blueprint looking like a folder in the background with some previews on top?
[21:24] <mirek2> maybe not using a blueprint at all
[21:24] <mirek2> or perhaps just using its outline
[21:25] <@AlexanderWilms> only a folder?
[21:25] <mirek2> yeah
[21:25] <@AlexanderWilms> ok
[21:26] <mirek2> anything else about the tentative design?
[21:26] <@AlexanderWilms> nope
[21:28] <mirek2> ok, let's move on
[21:28] <michelr> how to handle the creation of template ?
[21:28] <@AlexanderWilms> yes
[21:29] <@AlexanderWilms> what's next?
[21:29] <mirek2> @michelr "Create template" > menu of file types (Document, Presentation, ) > opens the right module
[21:29] <mirek2>  https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/File_Viewer
[21:30] <mirek2> no progress on that
[21:30] <mirek2> let's hope that the developers will work on the file manager first...
[21:31] <mirek2> unfortunately, the file I was using to design my mockups got corrupted
[21:31] <@AlexanderWilms> "Showing the maximum amount of cells"
[21:31] <mirek2> ok, let's discuss the open problems
[21:31] <@AlexanderWilms> I might still have a copy
[21:32] <mirek2> I think I have the file I sent you
[21:32] <@AlexanderWilms> Doesn't a spreadsheet contain a bazillion cells?
[21:32] <mirek2> right, exactly
[21:32] <mirek2> I feel that there's no showing them if they're all empty
[21:32] <mirek2> and an empty document would show no cells
[21:32] <@AlexanderWilms> So it should automatically zoom into the used area
[21:32] <@AlexanderWilms> why not?
[21:33] <mirek2> because the user doesn't need to see empty cells
[21:33] <@AlexanderWilms> if you create an empty spreadsheet document you still see some cells
[21:33] <@AlexanderWilms> how do you enter stuff, then?
[21:33] <mirek2> if you create an empty spreadsheet, you can see all the bazillion cells
[21:33] <@AlexanderWilms> later on when one can edit them
[21:33] <mirek2> @alex: you don't; this is a viewer
[21:33] <mirek2> we'll change the UI later on
[21:34] <mirek2> but showing a bazillion empty cells isn't really fit for a viewer
[21:34] <mirek2> once we have an editor, though I'd like to do something that Apple does
[21:34] <@AlexanderWilms> When I create/open an empty spreadsheet it shows the area A1 to P27
[21:35] <@AlexanderWilms> What's wrong with that?
[21:35] <mirek2> mine scrolls infinitely
[21:35] <@AlexanderWilms> strange
[21:36] <mirek2> are you sure yours doesn't scroll infinitely
[21:36] <@AlexanderWilms> sure, but does it show all those cells at  the beginning?
[21:36] <mirek2> what do you mean?
[21:36] <mirek2> if it scrolls infinitely, then of course it shows all those cells at the beginning
[21:37] <mirek2> they can't fit on one screen, of course
[21:37] <@AlexanderWilms> that's what I mean
[21:37] <mirek2> opening up Writer also doesn't show all the pages at once
[21:38] <@AlexanderWilms> Well, there's also only one page
[21:38] <mirek2> when you open up a document
[21:38] <mirek2> with several pages
[21:38] <mirek2> there it makes sense to show all the pages
[21:38] <mirek2> to allow the user to scroll through all the pages
[21:38] <mirek2> but when you have a spreadsheet with a bazillion cells
[21:39] <mirek2> and the user doesn't know if there might be content within some of those cells
[21:39] <mirek2> it's pretty unfriendly of the viewer to let the user scroll through all those cells instead of just telling him up front that those cells are empty
[21:39] <mirek2> it also wastes energy on rendering
[21:40] <mirek2> (why render a bazillion cells when they're all empty and useless to the user?)
[21:40] <@AlexanderWilms> so no sroll bars by default?
[21:41] <mirek2> Android doesn't have scroll bars
[21:41] <mirek2> why do you insist on showing empty cells?
[21:41] <mirek2> inside a viewer
[21:42] <mirek2> it takes longer to process that there's no content when you show the cells
[21:44] <michelr> for a viewer it seems coherent to stop scrolling at the last non-empty cell
[21:44] <@AlexanderWilms> How does one show empty cells if the spreasheet automatically zooms into the area where there's content?
[21:44] <@AlexanderWilms> yes
[21:44] <mirek2> I agree with MichelR
[21:45] <mirek2> @alex: it shouldn't automatically zoom in
[21:45] <mirek2> it
[21:45] <mirek2> didn't mean to post that, sorry
[21:46] <mirek2> empty cells would still be shown
[21:47] <mirek2> e.g. if a spreadsheet only has content in cell F12, then only the first 12 rows and 6 columns would be shown
[21:47] <mirek2> the same should go for sheets
[21:47] <mirek2> if a sheet is empty, it shouldn't be shown
[21:48] == astron247 [~frootzowr@dslb-188-106-214-075.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #libreoffice-design
[21:48] <@AlexanderWilms> ok
[21:48] <michelr> seems similar to "print preview" ?
[21:49] <mirek2> the cells would be shown continuously
[21:49] <astron247> hi back... what are you discussing?
[21:49] <mirek2> the way the file viewer would show cells
[21:50] <mirek2> we're discussing the file viewer problems
[21:50] <@AlexanderWilms> hi
[21:50] <mirek2> we started with the last one
[21:50] <michelr> hi
[21:50] <mirek2> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/File_Viewer#Open_Problems
[21:50] <mirek2> oh, and hello
[21:50] <astron247> ah thanks
[21:51] <astron247> hm, useful preview seems key, so choice #1 for me...
[21:52] <astron247> but usually there is some sort of print range defined
[21:52] <mirek2> what about sheets?
[21:52] <mirek2> should empty sheets simply not be shown?
[21:52] <mirek2> (that would be my suggestion)
[21:53] <astron247> oh sorry... i was getting ahead ofmyself ignore everythign ive said so far
[21:54] <michelr> @mirek2 : seems ok
[21:54] <mirek2> not sure there's much to ignore
[21:54] <astron247> but still, id go with ~#1:
[21:55] <mirek2> but not exactly?
[21:55] <astron247> show everything until nothing more is defined and then maybe add two rows/cols of extra space  ("padding")
[21:55] <mirek2> why the padding?
[21:55] <mirek2> this is a viewer, not an editor...
[21:55] <mirek2> if we want padding, we could show a gray background
[21:55] <astron247> lest we cut off something..?
[21:56] <astron247> still padding somehow seems natural to me.
[21:56] <mirek2> how about showing gray instead, then?
[21:56] <mirek2> like we do with documents?
[21:56] <mirek2> or like apple does with numbers?
[21:56] <astron247> if youre zoomed out that far, yes
[21:56] <mirek2> http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&safe=off&client=ubuntu&hs=Swq&sa=X&channel=fs&biw=659&bih=686&tbm=isch&prmd=imvnsa&tbnid=gimd-yazm1SjNM:&imgrefurl=http://www.apple.com/iwork/numbers/&docid=KVVJzvxV0clMBM&imgurl=http://images.apple.com/iwork/numbers/images/whatis-forumlas-20090106.jpg&w=461&h=208&ei=9_q3T-nWPIrYtAa84LXrBw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=257&vpy=190&dur=480&hovh=107&hovw=238&tx=95&ty=64&sig=105478234674798147357&page=1&tbnh=100&tbnw=222&start=0&ndsp=9&ved=1t:42
[21:57] <mirek2> I should've posted http://images.apple.com/iwork/numbers/images/whatis-forumlas-20090106.jpg
[21:57] <mirek2> or perhaps white instead of gray
[21:57] <mirek2> @astron: I meant as the padding
[21:58] <astron247> what do these grippies do exactly?
[21:58] <mirek2> in Numbers, you don't have infinite scrolling
[21:58] <astron247> okay
[21:58] <mirek2> you can enlarge the area of your table
[21:58] <mirek2> using these grippies
[21:58] <astron247> do these add rows/cols or do they enlarge the existing ones?
[21:58] <mirek2> and I think you can also enlarge it by typing a cell name in the formula bar, but I'm not sure
[21:59] <mirek2> they add rows and columns
[21:59] <mirek2> I prefer that behavior to the current LibreOffice one
[21:59] <astron247> this seems inconsistent with all uses of grippies ive seen so far...
[21:59] <mirek2> it seemed pretty intuitive to me
[22:00] <astron247> once you get the hang of it maybe... but still
[22:00] <mirek2> I hate it when someone sends me a spreadsheet and I have to look through all the different sheets to make sure I'm not missing something
[22:00] <astron247> what would you propose?
[22:00] <mirek2> @astron: I've used it once, and that was just out of curiosity because a friend had it installed
[22:00] <astron247> okay
[22:00] <michelr> I have to go now, thanks for answering my dumb questions ;-) bye
[22:01] <mirek2> you didn't have any dumb questions
[22:01] <mirek2> afaik
[22:01] <@AlexanderWilms> bye :)
[22:01] <astron247> well bye... i didnt answer any so much is sure
[22:01] <mirek2> bye
[22:01] == michelr [~michel@mir31-7-78-242-216-54.fbx.proxad.net] has left #libreoffice-design []
[22:02] <mirek2> @astron: I'd like the desktop version to lose infinite scrolling and feature just one sheet on an empty document, but that's a whole other discussion
[22:02] <mirek2> I would like the Android viewer to only show the rectangular area from A1 to the bottom rightmost cell with content
[22:03] <mirek2> if there's no content in the whole sheet, then it should just display a text label
[22:03] <astron247> okay. that second thign is sensible.
[22:03] <mirek2> "No content" or something along those lines
[22:03] <mirek2> @astron: the rectangular area thin or the text label thing?
[22:03] <astron247> the first thing would introduce lots of compatibility problem
[22:03] <astron247> +s
[22:03] <astron247> rect area
[22:03] <mirek2> as the second thing?
[22:04] <mirek2> losing infinite scrolling wouldn't introduce compatibility problems
[22:04] <astron247> no, first = lose features in desktop version
[22:04] <mirek2> and it wouldn't be a loss of features
[22:04] <astron247> second = react
[22:04] <mirek2> ok
[22:04] <mirek2> you just wouldn't scroll infinitely
[22:05] <astron247> well losing the ability to have multiple sheets would be losing a feature
[22:05] <mirek2> I didn't suggest that
[22:05] <astron247> oh, sorry.
[22:05] <mirek2> I suggested having a new document use a single sheet instead of 3
[22:05] <mirek2> most users only use the one
[22:05] <astron247> misread what you said. in any case, theres now a setting for that (which i hate)
[22:06] <mirek2> didn't know that
[22:06] <mirek2> should be default, though
[22:06] <mirek2> nobody will notice the setting anyway, and it just adds to the complexity of that awful dialog
[22:06] <astron247> can you post on ux-advise and add markus to cc about changing the default? id support it
[22:06] <mirek2> ok
[22:07] <mirek2> anyway, back to https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/File_Viewer#Open_Problems
[22:08] <mirek2> have we reached a decision on the spreadsheet design problem?
[22:08] <@AlexanderWilms> I hope so
[22:08] <astron247> well maybe the padding thing doesnt make so much sense after all and infinite scrolling doesnt maky any
[22:09] <astron247> -y+e
[22:09] <mirek2> so... show the rectangular area from A1 to the last filled cell?
[22:09] <astron247> yes
[22:09] <mirek2> and if the document is empty, show a text label?
[22:09] <@AlexanderWilms> ok
[22:09] <mirek2> ok on the second one too?
[22:09] <astron247> where would the label be shown
[22:10] <astron247> ?
[22:10] <@AlexanderWilms> in the centerß
[22:10] <@AlexanderWilms> ?
[22:10] <mirek2> in the center of the screen, yes
[22:10] <mirek2> in big letters
[22:10] <astron247> maybe a big icon, then message smaller below?
[22:10] <@AlexanderWilms> A bit off-topic: does libreoffice ship Droid Sans by defaultß
[22:11] <astron247> no
[22:11] <mirek2> nope
[22:11] <mirek2> but I think Android does ship with it
[22:11] <@AlexanderWilms> ok
[22:11] <astron247> although theyre discussing chrome os fonts whatever those are
[22:11] <mirek2> Tinos, Arimo, and Cousine
[22:11] <mirek2> alternatives to MS fonts
[22:11] <@AlexanderWilms> I've read that maybe Liberation might be replaced, would that matter regarding the templates?
[22:11] <mirek2> Tinos=Times, Arimo=Arial, Cousine=Courier
[22:12] <mirek2> @alex: maybe...
[22:12] <mirek2> you could ask on the ESC call
[22:12] <astron247> i just saw... the chrime os fonts are the liberation fonts but renamed
[22:12] <mirek2> or on the UX mailing list
[22:12] <astron247> -i+o
[22:12] <@AlexanderWilms> good
[22:12] <mirek2> no, the chrome os aren't the liberation fonts
[22:12] <mirek2> they're a whole other set of fonts
[22:12] <astron247> they look like them
[22:13] <astron247> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/09/download-and-use-the-new-chrome-os-fonts-in-ubuntu/
[22:13] <mirek2> both sets are made to look like the MS counterparts
[22:13] <mirek2> Times, Arial, and Courier
[22:13] <astron247> yes, but they share all the charcteristics of liberation
[22:14] <mirek2> some of them
[22:14] <astron247> or at least it seems to me
[22:14] <mirek2> but there's no Sans Narrow font
[22:14] <mirek2> which is one of the problems in replacing the Liberation fonts
[22:15] <mirek2> about the empty sheet and the text label: I don't think an icon would be helpful in this case
[22:16] <mirek2> not informative enough
[22:18] <mirek2> thoughts?
[22:18] <astron247> i wanted to propose large, dull-ish icon + small label
[22:18] <mirek2> an icon should serve a point
[22:18] <mirek2> other than a decorative one
[22:18] <mirek2> in this case, I don't think we could make an icon that could be informative enough
[22:20] <mirek2> what kind of icon would you propose?
[22:20] <astron247> just a slashed circle maybe
[22:20] <astron247> im still looking for what it looks like on my ipod
[22:21] <mirek2> I don't think that's informative
[22:21] <mirek2> actually, I would rather take that as a failure to road rather than an empty document
[22:21] <astron247> http://www.askdavetaylor.com/1-blog-pics/iphone-reset-17.png
[22:22] <mirek2> there, it's just decorative
[22:22] <mirek2> which I don't think is a good thing to do
[22:22] <astron247> it fills the void
[22:22] <astron247> 80pt text labels ar ugly imho
[22:22] <@AlexanderWilms> yes, a big grey area looks very dull
[22:23] <mirek2> it can be done with good design
[22:23] <astron247> crazy idea: just hide the sheet if nothings there
[22:23] <mirek2> typography
[22:23] <mirek2> @astron: yes, I agree
[22:23] <astron247> to "hide the sheet"?
[22:23] <mirek2> yes
[22:23] <mirek2> we're talking about completely empty spreadsheets right now
[22:23] <astron247> oooh
[22:24] <mirek2> seriously, though, an icon should have other value than decorative
[22:24] <astron247> crazy idea: we could have quotes from songs. like can's theres no level below this one :)
[22:24] <mirek2> there are tons of things that we can do with a text label to not make it boring
[22:25] <mirek2> @astron: only if it's understandable
[22:25] <mirek2> I probably wouldn't understand that one
[22:25] <astron247> sure
[22:25] <mirek2> we could do a lot with typography, though
[22:25] <astron247> it wouldnt be appropriate anyway
[22:25] <mirek2> there's tons of ways to make text look appealing
[22:26] <@AlexanderWilms> some typography would be nice
[22:26] <astron247> sure
[22:26] <mirek2> chrome does something similar
[22:26] <mirek2> http://www.geekosystem.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/chrome-dead-jim-sad-tab.png
[22:26] <mirek2> they do it well, I think
[22:26] <mirek2> the icon, in that case, is informative as well as decorative
[22:27] <astron247> its mostly alluding to the sad mac icon
[22:27] <mirek2> (i.e. you can judge what the problem is just by seeing the icon)
[22:27] <mirek2> yeah, the Chrome allusions are awesome
[22:28] <mirek2> the quote is alluding to star trek, if I'm not mistaken
[22:28] <astron247> we might have different opinions on that... the informality is one of the reasons i dont like chrome all that much
[22:28] <mirek2> and the naming scheme itself is fun (Chrome, Chromium, Cr48, NaCl, etc.)
[22:29] <astron247> but not being able to have a hundred tabs open at a time is another.
[22:29] <mirek2> that must be horribly tasking for your computer
[22:30] <mirek2> alright, enough about Chrome
[22:30] <astron247> i dont keep pages with flash open. so not so much. closing the browser is awful though
[22:30] <mirek2> To think -- Gnome's Epiphany is getting rid of tabs
[22:30] <mirek2> in any case, back on topic
[22:31] <mirek2> let's at least discuss the other open problems
[22:31] <mirek2> toolbar design
[22:31] <mirek2> overlay: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:V-bar.png ?
[22:31] <mirek2> or bar: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:FileViewerDocument.png ?
[22:32] <mirek2> (if we opt for lights-out, the bar would appear only on tap)
[22:32] <mirek2> actually, we should probably start with that
[22:32] <mirek2> lights-out or not?
[22:32] <@AlexanderWilms> lights-out
[22:33] <@AlexanderWilms> and a native bar
[22:33] <mirek2> astron?
[22:33] <mirek2> what's a native bar?
[22:33] <astron247> sorry...
[22:33] <mirek2> oh, you mean an opaque action bar
[22:34] <astron247> can you elaborate a bit on what would be visible in l-o mode?
[22:34] <mirek2> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:V-doc.png
[22:35] <astron247> so even the back/home/overview buttons would become circles?
[22:35] <mirek2> that's how it works
[22:36] <astron247> okay is that some kind of native functionality?
[22:36] <mirek2> yes
[22:36] <mirek2> http://developer.android.com/design/patterns/app-structure.html
[22:36] <mirek2> see the part about google books
[22:37] <mirek2> there's not much about it, though
[22:38] <mirek2> the point of it is to let the user focus on the content
[22:38] <astron247> well mobile web browsers have scrolled their ui elements for some time now. maybe we should just opt for that
[22:38] <mirek2> great for reading
[22:38] <mirek2> @astron: wouldn't opt for that, as documents may have 100+ pages
[22:39] <mirek2> I think lights-out is ideal in this case
[22:39] <mirek2> and it's core Android functionality, so it's familiar to the users
[22:40] <astron247> but would limit us to a4.0?
[22:40] <mirek2> I'm not sure
[22:40] <mirek2> I don't think so, though
[22:40] <astron247> okay thats not actually much of an additional limitation though
[22:40] <mirek2> I'll check with the developers...
[22:40] <astron247> our hardware reqs are really high anyway
[22:40] <mirek2> I actually think the mode was present on A 3.0 as well
[22:41] <mirek2> and given that the viewer is tablet only, those are the only OS's that we need to target
[22:41] <astron247> ;) no one has 3.0
[22:41] <mirek2> I'm just saying that Android 3.0 and over is for tablets, the former isn't tablet-ready
[22:41] <astron247> and again, given the hardware requirements... no point in supporting anything below 4
[22:42] <mirek2> by "former", I mean 2.3 and less
[22:42] <astron247> i know
[22:42] <mirek2> what hardware requirements?
[22:42] <astron247> for running the full libreoffice (as is the plan)
[22:42] <mirek2> it's supposed to be a simple viewer, not a complex game...
[22:42] <astron247> sure but all the viewing functionality is desktop libo
[22:42] <mirek2> yeah, but that's just the renderer
[22:43] <mirek2> the libo codebase will get lighter
[22:43] <astron247> what difference does that make? it needs to run
[22:43] <mirek2> and Android won't have the legacy stuff like the gallery or VCL altogether
[22:44] <@AlexanderWilms> No vcl?
[22:44] <astron247> well see how entangled that still is.
[22:44] <astron247> and vcl might not be shown on screen but likely its still there
[22:44] <mirek2> VCL shouldn't be present -- Android gets its own Java GUI
[22:45] <astron247> i know. but libreoffice mobile is basically the same as desktop libreoffice
[22:45] <astron247> except with a few things removed and a new ui slapped on
[22:45] <@AlexanderWilms> fortunately
[22:45] <mirek2> well, three modules are missing -- that should make a difference
[22:46] <mirek2> besides, even on the desktop the requirements aren't that high
[22:46] <astron247> but it takes 20 seconds to load?
[22:46] <mirek2> LibreOffice runs ok even on older hardware
[22:46] <astron247> (at least for me)
[22:46] <mirek2> sure, but it works
[22:47] <mirek2> in any case -- lights-out or no?
[22:47] <@AlexanderWilms> I'd vote yes
[22:47] <astron247> i tend to to no.
[22:48] <mirek2> and why?
[22:49] <astron247> lets say, tablets are pretty large.
[22:49] <mirek2> sure
[22:49] <astron247> searching could be a pretty big thing
[22:49] <astron247> and it would not seem to be possible in lo mode
[22:49] <mirek2> but the toolbar contains three buttons
[22:49] <mirek2> isn't that an unnecessary waste of real estate
[22:50] <mirek2> @astron: tapping on the document shows the toolbar
[22:50] <astron247> ooh
[22:50] <mirek2> so?
[22:51] <astron247> then probably yes...
[22:51] <astron247> im still dubious about the use of the the little circles
[22:52] <mirek2> that's the Android behavior
[22:52] <mirek2> not my design
[22:52] <astron247> you want to use it
[22:52] <mirek2> yes
[22:53] <astron247> and lo mode doesnt seem to change anything other than these buttons
[22:53] <astron247> or does it?
[22:53] <mirek2> well, it shows the toolbar only on tap
[22:53] <mirek2> which means that the document gets much more screen real estate
[22:53] <astron247> ah we couldnt do that without the glyphs being stripped down os much?
[22:54] <mirek2> nope -- that's the way lights-out mode works in Android
[22:54] <mirek2> maybe we could implement custom action bar-on-tap behavior, though...
[22:59] <mirek2> alright, so lights-out mode with a full-width bar?
[22:59] <@AlexanderWilms> yes
[22:59] <mirek2> or should we just discuss this later?
[22:59] <mirek2> I hope that we at least agreed on the spreadsheet design
[22:59] <astron247> no seems fine
[22:59] <mirek2> ok
[23:00] <mirek2> since there's so much design needed for this whiteboard, I'll move up proposal analysis one more week
[23:00] <mirek2> astron, while you were gone, we were discussing simple changes that could be made to LibreOffice to improve its design
[23:01] <mirek2> I'm meeting Kendy on Tuesday and he'd like to hear some suggestions
[23:01] <mirek2> if you have any, put them here, on the mailing list, or send me a personal e-mail
[23:02] <mirek2> will you put some here or should we move on?
[23:02] <astron247> ill look what you discussed before adding anything i guess
[23:03] <astron247> →move on
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[23:03] <mirek2> alright
[23:03] <mirek2> I'll put the meeting notes on the wiki
[23:04] <astron247> good
[23:04] <mirek2> alex, astron, did I miss something in the first half hour?
[23:04] <mirek2> if I did, could you just add it to the wiki after I post what I have?
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[23:04] <astron247> no we didnt discuss anything
[23:04] <@AlexanderWilms> No, we were waiting
[23:05] <mirek2> I'm really sorry
[23:05] <astron247> its fine
[23:05] <mirek2> alright
[23:06] <mirek2> everything's settled then?
[23:06] <astron247> id be happy to get some input on conditional ranges
[23:07] <@AlexanderWilms> color ranged between certain values?
[23:07] <@AlexanderWilms> *s
[23:07] <astron247> for instance. yes
[23:07] <mirek2> about that -- do you think it'd be possible to have a whiteboard for that?
[23:08] <mirek2> it's hard to follow the design progress on the mailing list...
[23:08] <astron247> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Conditional_Formatting
[23:08] <astron247> not everything on there, but should give an idea
[23:09] <mirek2> wow, didn't even notice it was created
[23:09] <mirek2> I'll put it on the design homepage
[23:10] <astron247> i knew i forgot sth
[23:10] <@AlexanderWilms> would colors be blended?
[23:11] <astron247> that is part of sht yet to come
[23:11] <@AlexanderWilms> ok
[23:11] <astron247> (ie colour scales
[23:11] <astron247> )
[23:12] <astron247> but i havent done a mockup for that yet
[23:12] <astron247> with conditional formatting you can also format text though
[23:13] <astron247> specifically id love to see how you feel about the add buttons
[23:13] <astron247> ...
[23:13] <mirek2> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Mockup-Conditionalformatting-pretty.png ?
[23:13] <mirek2> I like it
[23:13] <@AlexanderWilms> looks good
[23:13] <mirek2> the one next to "Condition 3", at least
[23:14] <astron247> the problem is that it scrolls
[23:14] <mirek2> what do you mean?
[23:14] <astron247> christoph at one point told me to have "two conditions by defualt" so users could see they can have multiple
[23:14] <astron247> @mirek the add button can scroll if there are enough conditions
[23:15] <astron247> so in some cases it might be hidden.
[23:15] <mirek2> I'd have one condition by default
[23:15] <astron247> you can always work to minimise that hiddenness but it wont go away
[23:15] <mirek2> I can't understand how it would be hidden
[23:15] <astron247> @mirek yes, thats what i thought too
[23:16] <mirek2> the user should be able to see the row with the next condition + add button
[23:16] <astron247> say, the window is stil the same size, but there are 200 conditions
[23:16] <mirek2> sure
[23:16] <mirek2> scroll to the bottom, then, to add a condition
[23:16] <astron247> you are at the top of the list
[23:16] <mirek2> no biggie
[23:16] <mirek2> drag the scroller
[23:17] <astron247> but you can't see it until youve scrolled down
[23:17] <astron247> thats what i meant – sorry for being unclear
[23:17] <mirek2> if you have 200 conditions, chances are you know how to use conditions
[23:17] <astron247> chances are, you got this document from someone and need to change it ...
[23:17] <@AlexanderWilms> or the view could be scrolled down by default
[23:18] <mirek2> yeah, I agree with Alex
[23:18] <astron247> yes, thats part of minimising the nastiness
[23:18] <mirek2> it's probably more useful to see the latest change, anyway
[23:18] <astron247> i think i wrote that on the page somewhere
[23:18] <mirek2> I don't think having 2 conditions by default deals with the problem at all
[23:18] <mirek2> actually, it adds to it
[23:19] <mirek2> why have 2 conditions by default again?
[23:19] <astron247> so users see they can have more than just one
[23:19] <astron247> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/archive/6/6a/20120307143028!Mockup-conditionalformatting.png
[23:20] <astron247> this is the original design (like rhythmbox's auto playlists)
[23:20] <mirek2> they should be able to see that when they see the "Condition 2" with an add button.
[23:21] <mirek2> I'm against 2 conditions by default
[23:21] <astron247> i agree...
[23:22] <astron247> okay maybe i have taken christophs quote out of context though ... before, he said how they discussed to make comments three lines high by default so users would see that it wont overflow in nasty ways
[23:23] <mirek2> I don't think that's relevant here, though
[23:24] <astron247> another question is sorting the list.
[23:24] <mirek2> yes?
[23:24] <astron247> markus doesnt want to/doesnt have time to implement drag and drop.
[23:25] <mirek2> how is it done now?
[23:25] <astron247> however, ↑/↓ buttons would be possible
[23:25] <astron247> so far there is nothing
[23:25] <mirek2> I'd prefer to leave it without up/down buttons
[23:25] <mirek2> wait for a developer to implement drag and drop
[23:25] <astron247> (not in my mockup, not in the current ui)
[23:25] <astron247> was my gut feeling too
[23:25] <mirek2> Is it a key feature?
[23:26] <astron247> the sorting influences which conditions aplly and which dont
[23:26] <astron247> -l+p
[23:26] <astron247> (it goes through the list from the first one and uses the first that applies)
[23:26] <mirek2> ok
[23:27] <mirek2> what does the button next to "enter value" do, btw?
[23:28] <mirek2> (I've never used this dialog before)
[23:28] <astron247> thats just an input area
[23:28] <@AlexanderWilms> you can select the area where it apllies I think
[23:28] <@AlexanderWilms> *applies
[23:28] <astron247> you can just enter a cell value that should be matched
[23:29] <astron247> @alex: it applies to the area under "Range"
[23:29] <mirek2> ok
[23:30] <mirek2> where would you put the up/down buttons?
[23:31] <astron247> another intermediate version: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/archive/6/6a/20120308092411!Mockup-conditionalformatting.png
[23:31] <astron247> (with ↑/↓ buttons
[23:31] <astron247> )
[23:32] <mirek2> I wouldn't like that
[23:32] <mirek2> adds too much complexity
[23:32] <mirek2> how about having a toolbar below with up/down buttons, an add button, and a remove button
[23:32] <mirek2> like http://en.flossmanuals.net/inkscape/ch036_layers/_booki/inkscape/static/Inkscape-Layers-layers_dialog-en.png
[23:33] <astron247> well thats a very indirect manipulation mechanism
[23:33] <mirek2> that would even eliminate the "hidden add button" problem
[23:33] <astron247> (not wrong)
[23:33] <mirek2> it's used quite frequently
[23:34] <astron247> but not (at least not with icons) in libo
[23:34] <astron247> but i know gnome has adopted it with gnome
[23:34] <astron247> 3
[23:34] <mirek2> yeah
[23:35] <mirek2> it also has the advantage of being in the same place
[23:35] <mirek2> so it's easier to target
[23:35] <mirek2> it's not a moving target
[23:35] <mirek2> and it removes the danger of accidentally clicking the "Remove" button
[23:35] <mirek2> which it seems would appear on selection in your mockup
[23:36] <astron247> do you feel its so dangerous? ive never thought of that
[23:36] <mirek2> yeah, a bit
[23:36] <astron247> but the only reason why youd be there is because you clicked Add before... no?
[23:36] <@AlexanderWilms> maybe a warning could help?
[23:36] <mirek2> btw, the "Customize" dialog in LibreOffice uses "indirect" up/down buttons
[23:37] <mirek2> let's keep this simple
[23:37] <mirek2> no warning
[23:37] <astron247> @alex if we can solve that with other button placement a warning should be inappropriate
[23:37] <@AlexanderWilms> yes
[23:37] <mirek2> @astron: you might be there just to tweak the condition
[23:37] <mirek2> or it might be an accidental click
[23:38] <astron247> thanks for this input
[23:38] <mirek2> in any case, I'd prefer something like http://en.flossmanuals.net/inkscape/ch036_layers/_booki/inkscape/static/Inkscape-Layers-layers_dialog-en.png now that I think about it
[23:38] <astron247> maybe we should add this as one thign to the hig then?
[23:39] <mirek2> what exactly? "indirect" add/remove/up/down buttons?
[23:39] <mirek2> btw, there's no HIG yet
[23:39] <astron247> i know.
[23:39] <astron247> but, yes.
[23:40] <mirek2> OK, when we have a HIG, we'll add it
[23:40] <mirek2> I guess I'll set up a wiki page for it
[23:40] <mirek2> are we done for today, then?
[23:40] <@AlexanderWilms> I think so
[23:41] <@AlexanderWilms> longest IRC meeting so far?
[23:41] <astron247> okay, lets close this.
[23:41] <@AlexanderWilms> Alright, bye then
[23:41] <@AlexanderWilms> Have a nice weekend
[23:42] <astron247> you too bye
[23:42] <mirek2> alright, good night
[23:42] <astron247> or wait
[23:42] <mirek2> yes?
[23:43] <astron247> if you try rhythmboxs auto playlist feature, the thing works similarly.
[23:43] <astron247> thats all.
[23:43] <mirek2> hm, don't have rhythmbox installed
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[23:44] <mirek2> similarly to the Inkscape/Gnome behavior or to your proposed behavior?
[23:44] <astron247> to mine.
[23:44] <astron247> i stole parts of it.
[23:44] <mirek2> I'll take a look at it later
[23:44] <astron247> but anyway, lets still close this
[23:44] <astron247> thanks godd night
[23:44] <astron247> -d+o
[23:44] <mirek2> good night :)