Design/Meetings/2012-06-02

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  • Date/Time: 2012-06-02, 1600 UTC (the time below is 2 hours ahead of UTC)
  • Location: IRC, channel #libreoffice-design

Attendees

Tasks

Alex/Mirek2

Mirek2

  • Put up an About dialog whiteboard
  • Put up a Splash screen playground
  • Put up a design principles whiteboard
  • Watch the "Designing Firefox" video
  • Restructure the design wiki

Log

[17:59] <alexander_> hi
[17:59] == astron247 [~frootzowr@dslb-088-072-060-098.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #libreoffice-design
[17:59] <astron247> hello...
[17:59] <@mirek2> hi
[17:59] <alexander_> Hello
[18:00] <@mirek2> astron, any progress on icons?
[18:00] <astron247> ah,...
[18:01] <astron247> it does take longer than you'd think to make this stupid list of stuff that can be replaced (especially if ze frank has a new show)... so no, contrary to plan, i have not contacted lapo again
[18:02] <@mirek2> :) okay
[18:02] <@mirek2> you could publish what you have so far and we could work on it collaboratively
[18:03] <@mirek2> if it's too much work
[18:03] <@mirek2> what do you think?
[18:04] <astron247> http://bit.ly/LoaBvz
[18:05] <astron247> there's 14 more svg's to go...
[18:05] <alexander_> you convert them manually?
[18:05] == willubuntu [~Will@82-212-132-215.teledisnet.be] has joined #libreoffice-design
[18:06] <@mirek2> hi will
[18:06] <astron247> ah, no i check manually where to put the icons
[18:06] <astron247> the above is also only a list...
[18:06] <astron247> not a zip, like i sent you last time
[18:08] <@mirek2> if you'd like to collaborate on this, perhaps we could upload the spreadsheet to Google Docs?
[18:08] <willubuntu> Hi mirek2
[18:08] <astron247> anyway the fourteen svgs in question...
[18:08] <astron247> applications-accessories.svg           packages.svg
[18:08] <astron247> applications-development.svg  edit-delete.svg    paper-sheets.svg
[18:08] <astron247> applications-engineering.svg  insert-image.svg   preferences-system.svg
[18:08] <astron247> applications-office.svg       insert-link.svg
[18:08] <astron247> cabinets.svg                  insert-object.svg  x-office-presentation.svg
[18:08] <astron247> computers.svg
[18:08] <astron247> (assuming you have cloned gnome-icon-theme already and are in the src folder...)
[18:09] <astron247> oh sorry ... didn't see your answer there...
[18:10] <@mirek2> Aren't "applications-" + something icons meant for application categories?
[18:10] <alexander_> Would that matter?
[18:10] <astron247> yes... still, there's no reason they can't be used another way, if they're generic enough, right?
[18:11] <astron247> i've still tried not to dilute the meanings of the icons too much, though
[18:11] <@mirek2> Frankly, I'd prefer to keep one icon per meaning
[18:11] <@mirek2> only allow this dilution in special cases
[18:12] <@mirek2> do we need the accessories, development, engineering, and office icons?
[18:12] <astron247> they contain nice rulers etc., so they are mostly building blocks for other icons
[18:12] <astron247> the office icon might eg. give us the pen
[18:13] <@mirek2> Lapo offered to make us some missing ones -- perhaps it'd be better than trying to extract the items from these SVGs?
[18:13] <alexander_> Otherwise there are only used in Kpackagekit, USC and alacarte etc. ,right?
[18:13] <alexander_> *they are
[18:14] <astron247> sure, but he probably doesn't want to start from scratch just because we didn't license them first
[18:14] <alexander_> If they fit, it would be nice to avoid further duplication of effort
[18:14] <@mirek2> hold on -- I thought Lapo was the author here?
[18:14] <astron247> i've spoken to lapo too and he seemed pretty astonished at the "4000 image files per theme" stat i cited
[18:14] <astron247> lapo and jakub in most cases
[18:15] <alexander_> Who's lapo?
[18:15] <@mirek2> I'm sure Lapo can get the permission to reuse some elements if he needs it
[18:15] <astron247> so, from a collaboration standpoint, what would make most sense is, if one of you could click his way through git.gnome.org
[18:15] <alexander_> the real name, I mean
[18:15] <@mirek2> @alex: one of the main Gnome icon authors
[18:15] <astron247> and find out who they authors are.
[18:15] <astron247> lapo calamandrei
[18:16] <alexander_> ah, thanks
[18:16] <astron247> i.e. go here: http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-icon-theme/tree/src
[18:16] <astron247> and click on the logs of every individual file...
[18:17] <@mirek2> wouldn't it be more productive if we knew which icons we want to use elements from?
[18:18] <astron247> ... so, yes, not every file, just the ones listed in the left column in my spreadsheet
[18:18] <astron247> + the 14 others i quoted above
[18:18] <@mirek2> hold on -- do we really need the applications icons?
[18:19] <astron247> it seems like a good idea to me.
[18:19] <alexander_> agree
[18:19] <astron247> even if we do have them, the theme will still be spotty enough, so...
[18:20] <@mirek2> ok
[18:20] <@mirek2> mind if I upload icons.ods to Google Docs?
[18:20] <astron247> guess not, though sheet two is very much WIP, you might want to remove it for the moment
[18:22] <@mirek2> sorry, my connection fell
[18:22] <@mirek2> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvRBf0YVtxzkdHNFc21nUktwQmFaN1dWZkFKaHVHT0E
[18:23] <astron247> (continuing from above) ie. there's 4000 icons, we should be able to replace about 600–700 of them, maybe 1000 will  be okay, but 2000 won't be
[18:24] <astron247> (hopefully only the long tail)
[18:24] <@mirek2> we don't need to hurry -- just take care of the priority cases
[18:24] <@mirek2> quality over quantity
[18:24] <alexander_> Should we try to use the same new gnome icons in cases where it's suitable?
[18:25] <@mirek2> that's why I'm a bit skeptical about including icons that were made for different symbolism
[18:25] <@mirek2> @alex: what do you mean?
[18:26] <astron247> @mirek: can give me edit access, please?
[18:26] <@mirek2> sorry, forgot
[18:26] <alexander_> If LibO uses two different icons where a single Gnome icon would fit
[18:26] <astron247> thanks!
[18:27] <@mirek2> @alex: yes, I believe we should
[18:27] <@mirek2> however, each icon should carry a single meaning, not several
[18:28] <astron247> okay... so what's with "next comment" v/ "next page"?
[18:30] <@mirek2> where?
[18:31] <astron247> in libreoffice... there's some kind of comments toolbar and there's print preview
[18:31] <astron247> o wait that should read page preview
[18:31] <astron247> (regina educated us about that (mis)feature on ux-advise, if you want to know more)
[18:32] <alexander_> which mis-feature?
[18:33] <willubuntu> So now I'm really there :D
[18:33] <willubuntu> Who is behind LibO Design account on Google+
[18:33] <willubuntu> ?
[18:33] <astron247> alx and mirek
[18:33] <alexander_> Hi
[18:33] <astron247> +e
[18:33] <astron247> (mostly)
[18:33] <astron247> but lets not get carried away here...
[18:34] <@mirek2> @astron: I've invited you, but I guess you didn't accept the invitation?
[18:34] <astron247> right.
[18:34] <astron247> (i could though=
[18:34] <astron247> but im not too much of a socialite...
[18:34] <@mirek2> if you don't want to take part, that's fine
[18:34] <@mirek2> I just wanted to make sure you didn't accidentally miss it
[18:35] <@mirek2> (since I sent it to your "heinzless spam" address...)
[18:35] <astron247> i hope thats okay with you...
[18:35] <willubuntu> I wanted to know if you're responsible for the new About... dialog GUI design.
[18:35] <alexander_> sure
[18:35] <astron247> andrew higginson...
[18:35] <@mirek2> @astron: yes, that's ok
[18:36] <@mirek2> @will: nope
[18:36] <@mirek2> at least as far as I'm aware, the Design team wasn't involved
[18:36] <willubuntu> Ok nice. I found this new one especially ugly and heavy (concerning source code needed).
[18:36] <astron247> i am not too happy about it ... i think andrew had further plans, but he didnt follow up on his initial commit
[18:37] <willubuntu> I wanted to redesign it and integrate the Update Manager in it as Firefox and Google Chrome are doing.
[18:37] <astron247> well, he wanted to remove the window border, to make it look like one of those fancy adobe things, but it seemed that was hard to do within libo
[18:37] <@mirek2> I would think that would be more trouble than it's worth
[18:37] <astron247> do you already have usable update code..?
[18:38] <willubuntu> Not yet.
[18:38] <willubuntu> I won't code if it isn't integrated.
[18:38] <@mirek2> Could you post a sketch/mockup of your idea first?
[18:38] <astron247> if what isnt integrated?
[18:38] <willubuntu> New About... dialog.
[18:39] <astron247> i think i am misunderstanding you here...
[18:40] <astron247> you are trying to say that you wont code a new about dialog if it wont be integrated or that you wont code update functionality if that isnt integrated into about?
[18:40] <willubuntu> astron247: the second solution obviously :D
[18:41] <willubuntu> I know I have to provide some mockups before coding.
[18:41] <astron247> that would be very cool :)
[18:41] <willubuntu> But I wnated to know if it would be interesting to integrate update manager in the About dialog.
[18:42] <@mirek2> You could post to the UX design mailing list to get some feedback from developers...
[18:42] <@mirek2> http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[18:42] <willubuntu> astron247: You will understand me correctly when I will reboot on Arch Linux :d
[18:43] <willubuntu> mirek2: I'm already registered on Nabble
[18:43] <astron247> sorry, i am on ubuntu here... i can only guess what you meant by that...
[18:44] <astron247> anyway, [for windows/mac] i don't care so much, if it is in options or in about, as long as it automatically shows a notification and then downloads the (minimal) bits to update and then i don't have to do a full reinstallation
[18:45] <willubuntu> mirek2: Ok I'll do that. As the end of my exam are on June 22. I will provide some screenshot after this date.
[18:45] <willubuntu> As I'm involved in quite a lot of Open Source projects (FileZilla, UltraDefrag) I can't provide them earlier.
[18:45] <@mirek2> ok, great
[18:45] <@mirek2> it's not a pressing matter
[18:45] <astron247> cool :)
[18:45] <@mirek2> btw, does LibreOffice update automatically on Mac/Windows now?
[18:45] <astron247> thanks!
[18:45] <astron247> no
[18:46] <willubuntu> mirek2: Not yet
[18:46] <astron247> you still have to download/install manually
[18:46] <@mirek2> are there plans to do that?
[18:46] <astron247> which is a Major Point of Pain
[18:46] <willubuntu> Itis was I was looking for when I rebooted on Windows to update LibO to 3.5.4
[18:46] <willubuntu> mirek2: Not yet.
[18:47] <@mirek2> alright
[18:47] <astron247> phew... i guess you could ask christian lohmaier ..?
[18:47] <astron247> dunno for sure who should/could be working on this
[18:47] <willubuntu> I wanted to get involved as Gsoc this year to do it, but I registered too late and futhermore I've a student job during the summer.
[18:48] <@mirek2> :/ too bad
[18:48] <@mirek2> I see that you're working with MS -- just out of curiosity, what piece of software are you working on?
[18:48] <willubuntu> Now I've the answer to my first question, the second one now :D
[18:49] <@mirek2> go ahead
[18:51] <astron247> will? you still there?
[18:52] <willubuntu> mirek2: I'm Microsoft Student Partner, but I have not been quite involved this year. MS wanted to show me how Kinect, Windows 8 Apps and so one are working ... I attended all the lectures , but refused to code for them (as lack of time, I've quite busy with school lately). (And Idon't like MS very much).
[18:52] <willubuntu> Maybe next year, they will force me to work on it to be still MSP
[18:52] <@mirek2> ok
[18:52] <willubuntu> astron247: Yeah, I'm doing several things at a time
[18:52] <@mirek2> go ahead with your question
[18:52] <willubuntu> mirek2: Ok.
[18:53] <willubuntu> I saw that Alexander already designed a cool LibO icon for the template repository. What are you waiting to integrate it?
[18:54] <alexander_> I contacted Andreas Mantke (who coded the repository plugin) some time ago but didn't get a response
[18:54] <willubuntu> I know the guy behind the template and extensions repository isn't enough reactive...
[18:54] <alexander_> Maybe I could email him again
[18:54] <willubuntu> alexander_: Yes it's the mainproblem
[18:54] <willubuntu> I sent some a emails to him but never answered me.
[18:55] <@mirek2> alright
[18:55] <@mirek2> any other questions?
[18:55] <willubuntu> A yes... concerning the templates proposal
[18:56] <willubuntu> wil you add some more fonts int LibreOffice ?
[18:56] <alexander_> Not into 3.6
[18:56] <@mirek2> maybe in the future...
[18:56] <willubuntu> It would be great if Robotto, ,Open Sans and Droid Sans would be integrated. All by templated are based on it.
[18:56] <alexander_> I talked to Björn Michaelsen and apparently that would cause some problems regarding the size of LibO
[18:56] <willubuntu> Do you now that the default font in LibO on Windows is still Times New Roman
[18:56] <alexander_> ?
[18:57] <alexander_> Not Liberation Sans?
[18:57] <willubuntu> It depends. Last time I checked it was still Times New Roman
[18:57] <alexander_> Can we go on?
[18:57] <willubuntu> I will launch a new VM (from scratch)  if you want
[18:58] <willubuntu> alexander_: Yes .
[18:58] <@mirek2> I trust you
[18:58] <@mirek2> should I contact the UX advise team about this?
[18:59] <willubuntu> mirek2: It's possible an old registry key was responsible of it. I'm checking.
[18:59] <@mirek2> or perhaps it's because of compatibility?
[18:59] <willubuntu> mirek2: So wait  before sending anything tp the UX advise team
[18:59] <willubuntu> mirek2: perhaps yes
[18:59] <astron247> nah, i think it's quite possible we're still using tnr/arial as defaults
[19:00] <astron247> these do have better hinting on win though
[19:00] <@mirek2> do you think it's better to use them by default?
[19:00] <astron247> (ms's cleartype becomes dreadful when it hist upon fonts that weren't made especially for it)
[19:00] == spaetz [~spaetz@2001:4b00:180:801:211:32ff:fe0d:ee0c] has joined #libreoffice-design
[19:01] <spaetz> mmh, one hour too late, I suspect :)
[19:01] <astron247> dunno... but liberation sans at least looks even worse than arail to me
[19:01] <astron247> well, hi
[19:01] <spaetz> hi :)
[19:01] <willubuntu> astron247: I made some tests. Liberation Sans is quite ugly on Windows.
[19:01] <@mirek2> hi
[19:01] <@mirek2> @spaetz: these meetings drag on for hours, so you're ok :)
[19:01] <astron247> this g+ thing does seem to have consequences... wow.
[19:02] <astron247> nice
[19:02] <@mirek2> :D
[19:03] <willubuntu> astron247: The best font that looks like great on all platforms: Open Sans and Robotto designed by Google. Seems this latter made some work on it.
[19:03] <@mirek2> what about Google's Tinos, Arimo, and Cousine?
[19:03] <willubuntu> mirek2: Never tried
[19:03] <@mirek2> there was talk about adopting those as defaults...
[19:04] <@mirek2> @will: could you?
[19:04] <willubuntu> I just tried fonts looking like Calibri (just to find a free alternative)
[19:04] <astron247> by the way, these fonts will be renamed to liberation soon, and then will get into libo
[19:04] <willubuntu> mirek2: I will try, but I haven't my Mac OSX VM
[19:05] <willubuntu> to make some tests on this platform too.
[19:05] <@mirek2> that's ok
[19:05] <astron247> i.e. redhat are replacing their liberation fonts with googles modified versions
[19:05] <@mirek2> I have a friend with a Mac, so I can test it later
[19:05] <@mirek2> @astron: what about Liberation Sans Narrow?
[19:06] <astron247> this one won't get replaced
[19:06] <@mirek2> alright
[19:06] <astron247> but i think mmeeks said sth about having been automatically generated anyway...
[19:06] <@mirek2> :D
[19:06] <@mirek2> ok, any other questions?
[19:09] <astron247> okay... back to icons for another moment?
[19:09] <spaetz> BTW, +1 for removing the "!"logo in the status bar for modified docs. It really does not add information.
[19:09] <spaetz> (sorry will shut up until it's my turn)
[19:09] <astron247> ah, another person saying that...
[19:09] <astron247> okay... back to icons for another moment?
[19:09] <spaetz> BTW, +1 for removing the "!"logo in the status bar for modified docs. It really does not add information.
[19:09] <spaetz> (sorry will shut up until it's my turn)
[19:09] <astron247> ah, another person saying that...
[19:11] <@mirek2> I'll ask Kendy about it on Tuesday
[19:11] <@mirek2> what do you think would be a fitting alternative, though?
[19:11] <@mirek2> The asterisk?
[19:11] <astron247> right, so "(modified)" in title
[19:11] <astron247> seems best to me
[19:11] <spaetz> personally, I love the grayed out save button for unmodified docs
[19:12] <@mirek2> Always, or only if the save icon is always enabled?
[19:12] <spaetz> but an (unmodified) in the title would be good too
[19:12] <@mirek2> @spaetz: there's a long discussion on the mailing list about this
[19:12] <spaetz> yes, that's why I bring it up. I read it :)
[19:12] <astron247> so, you know you can have that already?
[19:12] <spaetz> personally, I am not convinced that people want to "save" an .odt because they have changed the zoom level.
[19:13] <spaetz> so the grayed out save button is ok, in my opinion.
[19:13] <astron247> right, me neither.
[19:13] <@mirek2> one of the people on the mailing list uses it
[19:13] <astron247> or rather: i think the zoom level is a more personal setting
[19:13] <astron247> it should be saved, but not in the document.
[19:13] <@mirek2> I've checked gedit -- comes with the same always-on save button
[19:14] <spaetz> mirek2: ahh good to know, for consistency reasons.
[19:14] <spaetz> Anyway, remove it from the status bar. :-)
[19:14] <@mirek2> well, lxde's leafpad doesn't, so there's little consistency there
[19:14] <astron247> i see zero point in sending so. a file with my zoom level, when that person has a completely different screen
[19:14] <astron247> @lxde isn't really gnome
[19:14] <spaetz> astron247: I am always annoyed about the feature.
[19:14] <astron247> @mirek: ...
[19:15] <@mirek2> @astron: libreoffice isn't gnome
[19:15] <spaetz> I collaborate with people and I always use "optimal" zoom. Whenever I get a doc from others, it has a weird zoom hardcoded
[19:15] <astron247> i should really bring this point up on the list...
[19:15] <spaetz> Because my collaborators are weird and use a hardcoded zoom level :)
[19:15] <@mirek2> is it just about zoom level, or about view settings in general?
[19:15] <astron247> view settings in general
[19:16] <spaetz> mirek2: I'd have to think about it, but the "zoom level" really annoys me.
[19:16] <astron247> but zoom level is a prticular example
[19:16] <@mirek2> as I can see this might be useful for showing comments right away, showing characters, changes, ...
[19:16] <spaetz> especially when exchanging docs with collaborators
[19:16] <@mirek2> anyway, I'll talk to Kendy about this
[19:16] <spaetz> thanks :)
[19:17] <@mirek2> :)
[19:17] <@mirek2> any other matters?
[19:17] <spaetz> not from me.
[19:17] <astron247> okay... icons...
[19:17] <astron247> mirek, alex, would either of you be able to go through git gnome org?
[19:18] <@mirek2> to find the authors?
[19:18] <astron247> yes
[19:18] <alexander_> sure
[19:18] <astron247> (boring very much)
[19:19] <@mirek2> we could both take care of it
[19:19] <@mirek2> post them to https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvRBf0YVtxzkdHNFc21nUktwQmFaN1dWZkFKaHVHT0E#gid=0
[19:19] <astron247> i think you don't need to care much about the pre-git era, and i think you can safely disregard benjamin berg auto-edits
[19:20] <@mirek2> alright
[19:20] <astron247> oh, and because of (l)gpl source clause, the important files are the svgs
[19:20] <@mirek2> yes
[19:20] <@mirek2> is that all for icons?
[19:20] <alexander_> Next topic?
[19:20] <astron247> cool
[19:21] <astron247> no...
[19:21] <astron247> there's the status bar icons thing.
[19:21] <alexander_> Which icons?
[19:21] <@mirek2> yes?
[19:21] <astron247> should i try to replace your (mirek's) new plu/minus things?
[19:21] <astron247> +s
[19:21] <astron247> probably not, right?
[19:22] <@mirek2> if you have a better proposal, you can post it on the mailing list
[19:22] <@mirek2> basically, I just wanted the icons to be minimal and out of the way
[19:22] <alexander_> I like them
[19:22] <astron247> well, there's list-add, list-remove from gnome, but those arent minimal, they're blue
[19:22] <astron247> and beveled
[19:23] <alexander_> I think it's preferable to not make them stand out too much
[19:23] <astron247> and we'd need to adapt them to 10x10
[19:23] <@mirek2> ideally, I believe we should use monochrome icons
[19:23] <@mirek2> Gnome has a separate set for those
[19:23] <alexander_> -symbolic
[19:23] <astron247> just for the status bar you mean?
[19:23] <@mirek2> no, for monochrome icons
[19:23] <alexander_> monochrome ones for status purposes
[19:24] <@mirek2> symbolic icons, yes
[19:25] <astron247> i guess i dont quite follow ... anyway, keep your icons for now.
[19:25] <@mirek2> so we're still consistent with Gnome in having some monochrome icons
[19:25] <astron247> gnome seems to shift increasingly towards (ugh) monochrome only ... see documents
[19:26] <alexander_> Monochrome only?
[19:26] <@mirek2> @astron: I don't think that's a bad thing, though
[19:27] <@mirek2> both Holo and Metro use monochrome icons as well
[19:27] <astron247> i guess. all their new flagship apps seem (for now basically boxes and documents) use monochrome icons
[19:27] <@mirek2> and Google Docs
[19:27] <astron247> i hope i don't hurt you hear, but already i cant stand google spreadsheets :)
[19:27] <astron247> dull icons are one part of it
[19:28] <@mirek2> we have a very different view on this
[19:28] <spaetz> create 2 themes :-) astron/mirek -theme
[19:28] <@mirek2> I like it when the interface gets out of the way
[19:29] <astron247> we knew that before i think... but yeah if everyones moving towards monochrome stuff, we might want to go there too
[19:29] <@mirek2> we'll need to create a monochrome theme for Android
[19:29] <astron247> @mirek: it just gets indecipherable
[19:29] <@mirek2> one by one, though
[19:29] <spaetz> colorful can get out of my way too, for the record. Too plain becomes often undistinguishable
[19:29] <@mirek2> I agree
[19:29] * spaetz ducks
[19:30] <@mirek2> that's why I proposed using a second color to designate context
[19:30] <astron247> "metro" is out of the way, but probably also barely usable for document editing
[19:30] <spaetz> mirek2: I like the color-for-context idea a lot, yes
[19:30] <spaetz> read about it
[19:31] <@mirek2> :) thanks
[19:31] <astron247> but that colour coding is helpful for you, not for users (at least unless they have an IQ of at least 120)
[19:31] <astron247> (or so)
[19:31] <@mirek2> @astron: I don't think so
[19:31] <@mirek2> they've caught on to blue for document, orange for presentations pretty quickly
[19:32] <@mirek2> and if we're consistent with the color scheme, they'll catch on to "blue" for text, "yellow" for shapes as well
[19:32] <astron247> maybe ... but you had at least thirty colours in your proposal
[19:33] <astron247> (that might have been an inadvertent exaggeration9
[19:33] <alexander_> I think the hues stayed the same, right?
[19:33] <@mirek2> yeah
[19:33] <@mirek2> they did
[19:33] <@mirek2> the saturation varied by hierarchy
[19:33] <@mirek2> and lightness
[19:33] <@mirek2> (i.e. paragraphs are superior to text, so they're darker)
[19:34] <@mirek2> this is not really anything that has a chance of being implemented anytime soon, though
[19:34] <@mirek2> perhaps we should get back to something more current
[19:34] <astron247> right...
[19:34] <@mirek2> is there anything else about the icon theme we need to discuss?
[19:34] <astron247> not sure.
[19:35] <astron247> but we might as well go on to the splash screen
[19:35] <@mirek2> could I post a Playground page for that?
[19:35] <astron247> yes, please!
[19:35] <astron247> i am happy to give away the work of announcing that!
[19:36] <@mirek2> it seems more appropriate than a whiteboard, as it's something we could continually improve with ease
[19:36] <astron247> right.
[19:36] <alexander_> What is the motivation change that?
[19:36] <alexander_> using those motif triangles?
[19:36] <astron247> yes, mostly, i think
[19:36] <alexander_> IIRC
[19:37] <astron247> it also looks bad together with our new about dialogue
[19:37] <astron247> argh...
[19:37] <alexander_> argh?
[19:38] <willubuntu> mirek2: Did you received my PM?
[19:38] <@mirek2> right, sorry
[19:38] <willubuntu> astron247: What's up with the about dialog
[19:39] <astron247> it doesnt fit in with our splash screen
[19:39] <willubuntu> astron247: It's the problem I wanted to solve
[19:40] <astron247> and it does at least have its own idiosynchrasies
[19:40] <astron247> how so?
[19:40] <willubuntu> take the TDF logo and pick up to the left (as Fireofx did)
[19:40] <willubuntu> and I took the LibreOffice logo I put to the top
[19:40] <astron247> do you have a patch screenshot at the ready?
[19:41] <willubuntu> astron247: I'm still on Win :D
[19:41] <astron247> if yes, then it might be possible to get this into 3.6
[19:41] <willubuntu> astron247: Concerning the code. I've just to recalculate position and it's done
[19:42] <willubuntu> the background is determinating the dilog size
[19:43] <astron247> ok, but can you get that on the list before june 10?
[19:43] <willubuntu> astron247: With the complete code too?
[19:43] <astron247> yes. that's when the hard feature freeze starts.
[19:44] <astron247> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleasePlan/3.6
[19:44] <willubuntu> ok astron247 it would be done
[19:45] <astron247> if you cant dont worry, but t would be cool if we had three thigns before shipping 3.6:
[19:46] <astron247> * a close button (for gnome 3 users ...)
[19:46] <astron247> * buttons below the copyright not above it
[19:46] <astron247> * removal of that weird bezel
[19:46] <astron247> sorry if i am pressuring much here...
[19:46] <alexander_> @Mirek2: here's the folder for the template picker: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Templatefolder.png
[19:46] <@mirek2> @astron: could you post a screenshot (don't have the version you're talking about installed)
[19:47] <astron247> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=31022
[19:47] <@mirek2> @Alex: That's great for the desktop, though we might want something more Holo-themed for Android
[19:47] <astron247> thats the bug, screenshot upcoming
[19:48] <alexander_> I thought we#d use the blueprint on android?
[19:49] <willubuntu> astron247: I'm completely against dialog bar disappearance. Indeed on some system like me (often I don't use desktop manager), the About dialog couldn't be closed :D
[19:49] <@mirek2> oh, right; sorry, got confused
[19:49] <@mirek2> @willubuntu: dialog bar?
[19:50] <@mirek2> you mean title bar?
[19:50] <willubuntu> mirek2: Yes title bar
[19:50] <@mirek2> me too
[19:51] <astron247> http://bit.ly/JCPynv
[19:51] <@mirek2> what was wrong with the old About dialog?
[19:51] <@mirek2> I liked that one much, much better.
[19:52] <alexander_> I think it showed some unneccesary info
[19:52] <astron247> that and it apparently lacked pizzazz
[19:52] <alexander_> that would be confusing for submitting bugs
[19:52] <alexander_> pizzazz?
[19:52] <astron247> as you can read on the bug i linked to
[19:52] <@mirek2> It showed more useful info than the new one
[19:52] * spaetz prefers blue links to buttons for the three links in the new about dialog
[19:53] <astron247> *me-tooing_spaetz*
[19:53] <spaetz> Gnome and xfce about dialogs have plain blue links too
[19:53] <@mirek2> I bet everyone who installs LibreOffice knows that it's a productivity suite
[19:53] <willubuntu> mirek2: Me too and WAY faster...
[19:53] <astron247> it doesnt hurt having a short product desription there i think
[19:53] * willubuntu is mockuping :D
[19:53] <spaetz> mirek2: well, but that's the point of an "About" dialog :-). I don't thnk it's a bad or too long description
[19:54] <astron247> btw ... its apparently pizazz... one z only...
[19:54] <spaetz> 1) button -> plain links. 2) a close button
[19:54] <@mirek2> why was this never on the design or ux mailing list?
[19:55] <spaetz> 3) remove weird bezel
[19:55] <@mirek2> Firefox's about dialog: http://scripting.com/images/2011/08/18/firefoxAboutWindowV6.gif
[19:55] <@mirek2> no product description, as user already knows that it's a browser
[19:55] <astron247> would have been a good idea of me to CC this list at some point i guess...
[19:55] <spaetz> I actually like the copyright text _under_ the 3 links
[19:56] <spaetz> mirek2: but Firefox is the product who wanted to remove versions numbers completely from their about dialog
[19:56] <@mirek2> + useful info about the software build
[19:56] <spaetz> so I would not take them as idol :)
[19:56] <@mirek2> @spaetz: some people did
[19:56] <@mirek2> but they decided against it
[19:56] <@mirek2> so, yes, they're ones to follow, as they clearly pay attention to UX and make wise decisions in the end
[19:56] <spaetz> after a community backlash, yes :)
[19:56] <astron247> @spaetz: but these are buttons, not links, buttons belong to the bottom (or top depending on philosophy)
[19:57] <spaetz> astron247: but if you make them three plain links, they don't :)
[19:57] <spaetz> see the firefox about screenshot
[19:57] <@mirek2> ok, here's the Chrome about dialog: http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&safe=off&client=ubuntu&hs=f5Y&sa=X&channel=fs&biw=1280&bih=690&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=vwzTPnMbtfar3M:&imgrefurl=http://support.agilebits.com/discussions/1password-38-for-mac-from-agilebits-website/5583-chrome-issues&docid=WRMCTN0zviE5TM&imgurl=http://cdn.agilebits.com/kyle/ChromeAboutDialog.png&w=500&h=323&ei=61PKT9WTJYiF4gTS06TrDw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=196&vpy=347&dur=402&hovh=180&hovw=279&tx=11
[19:57] <spaetz> it has 3 links above the gray trademark blurb
[19:57] <@mirek2> http://cdn.agilebits.com/kyle/ChromeAboutDialog.png , rather
[19:57] <astron247> which is just a single line
[19:58] <astron247> ours is three lines long
[19:59] <@mirek2> would it be possible to redesign the About screen yet again?
[19:59] <@mirek2> I feel like our current one is better, in many ways, than the new one...
[20:00] <spaetz> astron247: right, the 3 lines is a bit excessive, but it's a really minor point
[20:00] <spaetz> there is bigger fish to fry.
[20:00]https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/index.php?title=Design/Meetings/2012-06-02&action=edit == spaetz [~spaetz@2001:4b00:180:801:211:32ff:fe0d:ee0c] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
[20:01] <astron247> @mirek: surely, it would be, but youd have to find a dev to do that.
[20:01] <astron247> the next month they will all be fixing bugs left and right, so...
[20:01] <astron247> will is kind of a hope here :)
[20:02] <@mirek2> what about simply taking the old one and replacing the text
[20:02] <willubuntu> astron247: It's exacly what I would like to do.
[20:03] <astron247> @mirek: i think its not an option to try to go back. you will seem like a blocker
[20:03] <willubuntu> Concerning the disposition more like the Firefox dialog
[20:03] == spaetz [b02ee28d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.176.46.226.141] has joined #libreoffice-design
[20:03] <spaetz> sorry, got disconnected
[20:03] <astron247> we saw...
[20:04] <spaetz> with regard to 3 lines of copyright blurb. astron247: right, the 3 lines is a bit excessive, but it's a                  really minor point, there is bigger fish to fry. (I'd ditch the first line anyway)
[20:04] <@mirek2> @astron: but it's not about what I seem like, it's about what has better quality
[20:05] <astron247> sure, but some people were really happy about how water-proof it is (there was an april 1 joke here) .. look it up on the dev-list
[20:06] <@mirek2> @spaetz: you can see the stuff you missed on https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings/2012-06-02, if you'd like
[20:07] <astron247> live meeting notes... nice.
[20:08] <@mirek2> @willubuntu: so you'd like to base your code on the old About dialog, not the new one?
[20:08] <willubuntu> mirek2 Yes on the old. But the final look will be exactly what Firefox provide
[20:08] <@mirek2> everyone: could I start a whiteboard on the About dialog?
[20:08] <willubuntu> *+s
[20:09] <@mirek2> @willubuntu: great
[20:09] <@mirek2> you might want to take a look at http://elementaryos.org/journal/typography-gtk3
[20:09] <@mirek2> at the about dialog
[20:10] <spaetz> not that it matters, but it would be politically better to base the code on the current code and evolve from there.
[20:10] <alexander_> Yeah, elementary's about dialog is very nice
[20:10] <spaetz> just a minor observation
[20:10] <@mirek2> @spaetz: is the new code better somehow?
[20:10] <@mirek2> politically, it's better to do the thing that's right for our users
[20:11] <spaetz> Yes,it has been accepted by a contributor and discarding contributions is always worse then "evolving" based on them
[20:11] <@mirek2> if a piece of new code is bad, we should scrap it, not keep it around because it's new
[20:11] <spaetz> the piece of code is not bad, the looks are.
[20:11] <@mirek2> but it seems as it's a lot more complicated than the old one
[20:11] <astron247> @ spaetz: yes, that's the point i am trying to make.
[20:11] <spaetz> simplify it :)
[20:11] <@mirek2> but we already have a simple version -- the old code
[20:12] <spaetz> evolve, don't discard.
[20:12] <astron247> yes, it is... apparently it resizes based on your screen size etc.
[20:12] <@mirek2> @spaetz: I disagree
[20:12] <astron247> @mirek we need the core devs in our boat
[20:12] <spaetz> we agree to disagree then. I am simply speaking from a contributor community point of view.
[20:12] <astron247> otherwise theyll just disregard what we have to say.
[20:13] <@mirek2> but we're making software for the user
[20:13] <alexander_> mutations with a negative effect on an individuum tend to kill it in the end...
[20:13] <astron247> not directly, though
[20:13] <@mirek2> the redesign of the About dialog should happen openly, not behind closed doors
[20:13] <alexander_> as a metaphor :)
[20:13] <astron247> social darwinisim ... no, software darwinsim?
[20:13] <alexander_> I guess
[20:14] <alexander_> I think there have been studies on this regarding the debian repos
[20:14] <@mirek2> and the developer implementing it should opt to base it on whatever code he deems most fit for the purpose
[20:14] <alexander_> But thats quite off-topic
[20:14] <@mirek2> he can even borrow code from other projects with a good license
[20:14] <@mirek2> he certainly doesn't have to modify the newest version if it's not fit for the redesign
[20:14] <astron247> @alex: saw that on heise too
[20:15] <spaetz> mirek2: it doesn't matter what he "should". This is about feelings of contributions being discarded/rejected/reverted. This is psychology, not technology. But I digress and will shut up
[20:15] <spaetz> It was just an observation
[20:15] <@mirek2> alright
[20:15] <@mirek2> Is it ok if I put up a whiteboard for the about dialog?
[20:16] <spaetz> +1
[20:16] <astron247> yes, i think so.
[20:16] <astron247> sorry that i did not push this to design/ux-advise...
[20:16] <@mirek2> willubuntu, would you be willing to code something decided on collaboratively?
[20:16] <@mirek2> @astron: that's ok
[20:17] <willubuntu> mirek2: yes for sure
[20:17] <@mirek2> alright, great
[20:18] <@mirek2> about the splash screen, then
[20:19] <@mirek2> are there certain constraints for the design?
[20:19] <astron247> mostly:
[20:19] <@mirek2> should it be the same size as it is now?
[20:19] <@mirek2> no transparency, I guess
[20:19] <astron247> probably, and probably
[20:19] <willubuntu> astron247: Yes LibO code can't reder PNG
[20:19] <astron247> @it does render PNG today
[20:20] <@mirek2> ok, and the color of the progress indicator is tweakable
[20:20] <@mirek2> (in case the green is hard to see on the proposed versions)
[20:20] <willubuntu> mirek2: Hey I won't code the update manager for June 10
[20:20] <astron247> right ... id love to have some cool progress indicator as underline effect...
[20:20] <astron247> @will: thats cool
[20:21] <astron247> it'd be too much of a new feature this late in 3.6 anyway
[20:21] <@mirek2> @willubuntu: would you be willing to code a restructured About dialog for 3.6, though?
[20:21] <willubuntu> astron247: Yes. Keep in mind. My contribution is just to avoid this ugly About dialog appearing in 3.6.
[20:22] <willubuntu> mirek2: Not for 3.6 It's quite too late today
[20:22] <@mirek2> ok
[20:22] <willubuntu> I'm still under exam until June 22.
[20:22] <willubuntu> But for the release after the holiday I think it will be ready
[20:22] <astron247> anyway... musts for the new splash: motif, same logo (basic/modern) in both about and splash
[20:23] <@mirek2> Is the motif really a must?
[20:23] <@mirek2> I'd like to keep creativity to the maximum
[20:23] <@mirek2> some minimalistic designs might not want to use the motif
[20:24] <@mirek2> (btw, I plan to post this as a Playground page, so there will be no deadline, as this is one of the things that can be improved continually)
[20:24] <astron247> creativity thrives when there are restrictions ;)
[20:26] <@mirek2> frankly, I also believe that the About dialog would do better without the motif
[20:27] <@mirek2> Could it at least be a recommendation rather than a restriction?
[20:27] <astron247> okay
[20:28] <@mirek2> :) great
[20:28] <@mirek2> move onto another topic?
[20:29] <astron247> okay.
[20:29] <@mirek2> I'd like to talk about our design ethos
[20:29] <@mirek2> http://bokardo.com/principles-of-user-interface-design/
[20:30] <@mirek2> I'd personally love for these design principles to become our design principles
[20:30] <@mirek2> I believe we need some basic principles to guide our designs
[20:30] <astron247> hm... wouldnt it be better to define the product vision as björn proposed?
[20:30] <astron247> (first)
[20:31] <alexander_> what would be the difference?
[20:31] <@mirek2> there are several differences
[20:31] <@mirek2> design principles concern all design
[20:32] <@mirek2> the product vision concerns each individual piece of software separately
[20:32] <astron247> well the product vision defines what our product should become, while design principles guide our designs
[20:32] <astron247> the thing is though, that design principles can be contradictory and we will need to decide with which one to go
[20:33] <@mirek2> i.e. "Impress remote control" is a product different from "LibreOffice", or at least that's how I understand it
[20:33] <astron247> and one way to do that is the product vision
[20:33] <astron247> @mirek: hm, maybe its a sub-product
[20:33] <astron247> with a slightly different target audience
[20:33] <@mirek2> I feel like the product vision can be just too generic and dangerously misleading because of that
[20:34] <@mirek2> I meant vague rather than generic
[20:34] <astron247> yes, product are always vague, but some more than others
[20:34] <astron247> +visions
[20:34] <@mirek2> I also feel like certain parts of LibreOffice have completely different userbases
[20:35] <@mirek2> compare "Draw" and "Math" and "Base"
[20:35] <alexander_> Who uses math as a stand-alone app?
[20:35] <@mirek2> yeah, exactly
[20:35] <astron247> i see that this is a problem, but ... still there should be an all-encompassing vision here
[20:35] <@mirek2> such as?
[20:36] <astron247> oh...
[20:36] <astron247> * libreoffice is with you (starts up quickly, on all your devices)
[20:36] <astron247> * libreoffice is powerful without being overpowering
[20:36] <astron247> ....
[20:37] <astron247> would be the first two things that would come to midn
[20:37] <astron247> but really, we should discuss this at more length
[20:37] <@mirek2> it would also be a lot more problematic trying to come up with a vision, as a vision concerns the whole of LibreOffice rather than just the design team
[20:37] <@mirek2> the design principles apply to the design team only
[20:38] <astron247> yes. getting developers to do that is a bit of a problem
[20:38] <astron247> @mirek: no, they dont
[20:38] <astron247> developers will design all the time
[20:38] <astron247> (actually they do)
[20:38] <@mirek2> yes, but, in that case, they're also designers
[20:38] <astron247> youd hope :)
[20:39] <astron247> anyway, it will be hard to get them to stick to our rules...
[20:40] <astron247> so these rules have to prove themselves first
[20:40] <@mirek2> if a developer doesn't bother to design along with the design team, he probably won't bother to design according to set design rules
[20:40] <@mirek2> the least a developer could do is check with the design team if his idea is good
[20:40] <alexander_> so we should try to have very simple and few design rules?
[20:41] <astron247> probably.
[20:41] <@mirek2> no, on the contrary
[20:41] <@mirek2> well, not exactly the contrary
[20:41] <astron247> have you watched the video about firefox design i linked to on the list btw?
[20:41] <@mirek2> we should have exactly enough design rules as to end up with the best possible design
[20:41] <@mirek2> @astron: when did you link it?
[20:42] <@mirek2> if it was recently, then I must have missed it
[20:42] <@mirek2> could you post the link here?
[20:42] <astron247> http://blog.mozilla.org/faaborg/2011/11/01/talk-at-parc-designing-firefox/
[20:43] <astron247> if you have an hour to spare, well worth watching
[20:43] <@mirek2> will do
[20:43] <@mirek2> anyway, what do you all think about http://bokardo.com/principles-of-user-interface-design/ ?
[20:44] <alexander_> I've skipped over it and it all sounds pretty good
[20:44] <astron247> havent read all of it, but yes, sounds like it goes through many of the points that nielsen goes through too
[20:46] <@mirek2> would you object to it formin the basis of our design guidelines?
[20:47] <astron247> i wouldnt want to say anything on that right now. please let me read it first. ill answer tomorrow or so.
[20:47] <@mirek2> alright
[20:47] <@mirek2> how would you propose we shape our guidelines?
[20:47] <@mirek2> a whiteboard?
[20:48] <astron247> okay
[20:48] <@mirek2> starting today?
[20:49] <@mirek2> i.e. call for proposals ending next IRC chat?
[20:49] <alexander_> ok+
[20:49] <alexander_> I think we can work on it corrabolatively
[20:49] <@mirek2> yes
[20:50] <@mirek2> alright -- next order of business
[20:50] <@mirek2> GSoC?
[20:50] <alexander_> Any progress on the file viewer?
[20:51] <@mirek2> some
[20:51] <@mirek2> I'm playing with designs
[20:51] <@mirek2> for example, I want the background to be black
[20:51] <@mirek2> rather than gray, so the user can focus on the content
[20:52] <astron247> uhm, sorry people, i will go offline now.
[20:52] <astron247> hope that's okay.
[20:52] <@mirek2> alright, good night
[20:52] <alexander_> ok, bye
[20:53] <spaetz> night astron
[20:53] <astron247> thanks!
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[20:54] <@mirek2> anyway, about the file viewer, I'll work on it some more
[20:54] <@mirek2> but I'd prefer it to be democratic
[20:54] <@mirek2> in other words, anyone can still submit designs, especially for the open problems on the wiki
[20:55] <alexander_> ok
[20:55] <@mirek2> has any developer spoken up on the dev list?
[20:56] <@mirek2> I mean any GSoC student/mentor...
[20:56] <alexander_> I don't think so
[20:56] <@mirek2> what about the ESC call?
[20:56] <@mirek2> did Tor happen to mention it?
[20:56] <alexander_> ah, wait
[20:57] <alexander_> Well, iain and marco cechetti post quite often
[20:58] <alexander_> and astron mentioned that we'd like to get in contact with the sudents
[20:58] <@mirek2> alright
[20:59] <@mirek2> I still have to contact the template dialog people
[20:59] <alexander_> * GSOC update (Cedric)
[20:59] <alexander_>         + progressing nicely, check students are working,
[20:59] <alexander_>           ping quiet ones
[20:59] <alexander_> Cedric & Rafael
[20:59] <@mirek2> that was on the ESC program
[20:59] <@mirek2> but did it happen?
[20:59] <alexander_> yes
[21:00] <@mirek2> and? any word on the projects we've designed for?
[21:00] <alexander_> you mean whether it was mentioned during the call?
[21:00] <@mirek2> yes
[21:01] <alexander_> yes
[21:01] <@mirek2> and?
[21:01] <alexander_> oh
[21:02] <alexander_> Well, I guess Cedric and Tor will encourage his student to talk to us
[21:02] <alexander_> *their *s
[21:03] <alexander_> That would be the android port and the template picker. Did iain answer your mail?
[21:04] <@mirek2> which one?
[21:05] <@mirek2> I've only sent one, on the first of may, which he answered
[21:05] <@mirek2> "I'd be happy to work with you and the design team."
[21:05] == spaetz [b02ee28d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.176.46.226.141] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
[21:06] <alexander_> wait a sec
[21:06] <@mirek2> yes?
[21:07] <willubuntu> A mockup http://libreoffice.gathoye.be/LibO_2012-06-02_about_0001.png
[21:07] <willubuntu> I will add some text later
[21:07] <willubuntu> Inkscape is annoying me : I can't define underlined text
[21:08] <alexander_> hm, I can't find it
[21:08] <@mirek2> yeah, that annoyed me as well
[21:08] <@mirek2> @willubuntu: could upload your mockup to the whiteboard, once I create it?
[21:08] <@mirek2> you are on the design team mailing list, right?
[21:09] <alexander_> Looks nice, I'd remove those shadows, though
[21:09] <@mirek2> exactly what I was going to say
[21:09] <willubuntu> mirek2: I'm on nabble yes, but I don't receive the all design team mail
[21:09] <willubuntu> only when people answer me on threads I participated in
[21:09] <@mirek2> alright -- I'll send an e-mail announcing the whiteboard
[21:11] <@mirek2> @alex: what were you trying to find?
[21:13] <willubuntu> please refresh I uploaded it as real size
[21:13] <alexander_> oh, i think I mixed that up with a mail to andrzej
[21:13] <alexander_> and muthu
[21:14] <@mirek2> @will: I'd still prefer it without the added shadows
[21:15] <@mirek2> there should also be at least a license link
[21:15] <willubuntu> mirek2: I added some shadows on the LibreOffice logo
[21:15] <@mirek2> yeah, that's the one I mean
[21:15] <@mirek2> on both the logo and the logo type
[21:17] <@mirek2> @alex: yes, it's on the team list titled "Impress remote: Tentative design"
[21:17] <willubuntu> mirek2: How do you remove this :D
[21:18] <alexander_> I see, I thought i was about the android port of LibO
[21:18] <@mirek2> @will: the official SVG shouldn't contain shadows: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Gallery_Logos
[21:19] <@mirek2> I just remember one more thing I'd like to discuss
[21:20] <alexander_> yes?
[21:20] <@mirek2> I was thinking of making separate pages for contests, whiteboards, and playgrounds
[21:20] <@mirek2> as the design homepage is growing, and it's not very novice-friendly anymore
[21:20] <@mirek2> I'd also like to make the design homepage as novice-friendly as possible, more than it is now
[21:21] <@mirek2> so that nobody feels like we need a section like https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Call_for_Templates#Help
[21:22] <@mirek2> what do you think?
[21:22] <alexander_> Maybe have a single page containing such advice
[21:22] <alexander_> ?
[21:22] <@mirek2> I was thinking of the homepage guiding novices through the process
[21:22] <alexander_> ah
[21:23] <@mirek2> then having separate contests, whiteboards, and playgrounds pages, listing current endeavors as well as explaining their respective workflows
[21:23] <alexander_> sounds good
[21:23] <@mirek2> basically, the homepage would be a nexus sending people to various sections of the design part of the wiki
[21:24] <@mirek2> is it ok if I implement it, then?
[21:24] <alexander_> Yes, go ahead
[21:24] <@mirek2> great
[21:24] <@mirek2> anything else we should discuss?
[21:25] <alexander_> I think we're done
[21:26] <alexander_> Do you need the svg of that folder?
[21:26] <@mirek2> oh, about that folder
[21:26] <@mirek2> I assume the four blank spaces are meant for template thumbnails
[21:27] <@mirek2> or are those just symbolism for templates?
[21:27] <@mirek2> in any case, yes, I'd like the SVG :)
[21:27] <alexander_> thumbnails
[21:27] <@mirek2> great, that' s what I thought
[21:27] <@mirek2> will, anything you'd like to say before we end the chat?
[21:28] <@mirek2> I assume that you're afk, then... :)
[21:29] <@mirek2> alright, good night
[21:29] <alexander_> no
[21:29] <@mirek2> no?
[21:29] <alexander_> Have a nice evening
[21:29] <@mirek2> you too
[21:29] <@mirek2> I'll put the log up