Design/Meetings/2012-06-16

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  • Date/Time: 2012-06-16, 1600 UTC (the time below is 2 hours ahead of UTC)
  • Location: IRC, channel #libreoffice-design

Attendees

Log

astron247> take a look.
<mirek2> and while I don't use it, you can watch pages on the wiki so that updates don't escape your attention
<alexander_> Yes, I know cgit
<mirek2> to be honest, I'd prefer to stay on the wiki
<astron247> right, still, i think an artwork repo could be better organised
<mirek2> we'd have to do all the organizing
<mirek2> and watch every wiki upload
<astron247> "watch every upload"? how?
<alexander_> We'd emphazie that contributors should zuse the mailing list to submit stuff
<mirek2> exactly -- I don't think that's possible
<mirek2> @alex: but then we'd have to upload things to both the wiki and the git repository
<mirek2> this stuff needs to be in the wiki so it's publicly visible
<mirek2> and accessible to the broad public
<astron247> or, maybe, we could use the repo just for very official, actually in-product stuff and keep the wiki for experiment
<astron247> s
<astron247> @mirek through cgit, its also publicly visible
<mirek2> if it's in-product, isn't the current libreoffice repo enough?
<mirek2> given that most non-developer designers never touch git, it's not accessible to the general public
<astron247> having our own repo, we could link to that from the wiki
<astron247> at the point with the libreoffice repo being enough: maybe
* mirek2_ (d5dcf47d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.220.244.125) hat #libreoffice-design betreten
<astron247> but also, the svgs arent (currently) used in the process of building, so they could be cleanly split out of the main repo
<mirek2_> I got disconnected, may have missed a line or 2
<astron247> (repeating my lines from before)
<astron247> astron247 18:22:00
<astron247> having our own repo, we could link to that from the wiki
<astron247> at the point with the libreoffice repo being enough: maybe
<mirek2_> linking from the wiki still would eliminate image previews, which is something we want
<alexander_> They could be used additionally
<astron247> alex: what do you mean?
* mirek2 hat die Verbindung getrennt (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
<mirek2_> we might want a repo for source svgs, I agree
<mirek2_> not for general submissions, though
<mirek2_> these svgs should be source files of the pngs already accepted for inclusion
<alexander_> I don't understand why linking to the repo would eliminate previews
<astron247> okay, i guess i agree to that now
<alexander_> Yes
<astron247> because cgit is awful with images
<alexander_> It shows the Hexcode, doesn't it?
<astron247> you have to click on "plain" and then it will download ... but the server will communicate "this is a text file, so open with gedit"
<mirek2_> yeah, that's bad
<astron247> and then your svg opens in gedit, instead of in a useful piece of software
<astron247> (i like gedit, but its not an image viewer)
<mirek2_> so are we agreed to use a repo for hosting source files for graphics accepted into libreoffice?
<astron247> yes
<alexander_> yes
<mirek2_> astron, since you brought it up and are probably most familiar with it, could you take care of that?
<astron247> by the way, there already is the (deprecated) artwork repo that was used until 3.4
<astron247> (just for the icons, though)
<mirek2_> didn't know
<astron247> ill see what i can do
<mirek2_> great
<mirek2_> :)
<mirek2_> moving on...
<mirek2_> anything else from ESC?
<astron247> okay... so next up, me shooting you guys in the foot:
<astron247> concerning the writer default doc
<alexander_> Not for 3.6 I guess
<mirek2_> astron: yes?
<astron247> i said sth to the effect of "i am not sure its worthwhile to pursue this default doc stuff, if the only options available are liberation sans and serif"
<mirek2_> to a measure, I agree; however...
<astron247> which michael thought to mean "clearly not a good use of cedrics/kendys time"
<mirek2_> ...there are some problems we could fix with the current template
<astron247> i didnt clarify that though
<astron247> such as the headlines smaller than the body text?
<astron247> yes.
<mirek2_> yes
<astron247> is there anything else that really needs to be fixed?
<mirek2_> and headings using non-integer sizes
<astron247> thats because theyre in precentages
<astron247> ie: heading is 14pt, and heading 1 is 110% of that, heading 2 is 100% etc...
<mirek2_> oh...
<astron247> its useful, because when you scale heading up in your document, all the subheads will adapt
<mirek2_> well, it's still something that could be adjusted
<mirek2_> it's strange that 14 is used
<mirek2_> 12 is a much nicer number, divisible by 2,3,4,6
<astron247> maybe. i am not sure what you'd use that for.
<mirek2_> I agree that it's useful
<mirek2_> @astron: it divides more nicely
<mirek2_> to whole integers
<astron247> no, thats not what i mean, but good idea
<astron247> maybe we can try 24 for heading?
<alexander_> Does that matter?
<mirek2_> I'd like 24 for a heading
<mirek2_> without bold
<astron247> i think fotns are to some degree optimised for point sizes, but dont nail me on that
<mirek2_> yes, they are
<mirek2_> that's why I'd like to use integer sizes by default
<astron247> (i know for sure with on-screen small sizes, not sure about print)
<mirek2_> also headings 6-10 look identical
<mirek2_> which is a huge problem
<astron247> yes. i _think_ these should just be removed
<alexander_> Well, who uses them
<astron247> it doesnt help anyone to have ten outline levels
<mirek2_> I have actually used some of these
<astron247> it makes documents worse
<mirek2_> it doesn't really
<mirek2_> no, these categories shouldn't end up in a table of contents
<mirek2_> but it makes formatting subcategories easier
<mirek2_> well, that's the point of styles as a whole
<mirek2_> and they're useful in this scenario as well
<astron247> okay, so we are told "three outline levels" no more
<astron247> but what do you mean with subcategories?
<mirek2_> what do you mean?
<mirek2_> well, headings are often used to represent subcategories
<astron247> our professor or well, lecturer says so
<mirek2_> while these don't appear in the table of contents...
<mirek2_> ...they separate out sections
<mirek2_> in complex documents, these headings are useful
<mirek2_> even on our own wiki, there are times when we use the maximum possible heading level
<mirek2_> sometimes there are times when it could be useful to go even deeper
<astron247> but at level 6+? youre either structuring your text to granularily or you have a bad structure usually
<astron247> by the way, html/wiki markup only provide 6 levels
<alexander_> Maybe we could make more styles available in that dropdown so that users won't need the formatting dialog so often
<astron247> @alex: thats a different topic, i think
<mirek2_> ok, I wouldn't be squarely against getting rid of headings 7-10
<astron247> @mirek: if you need more, you can obviously define more levels, but we need a sane default (i. e. about 5 levels)
<mirek2_> 6 levels at least, please
<mirek2_> many users can't define more levels
<mirek2_> the style UI is not very good right now
<astron247> right
<astron247> but the only who need to define more are power users
<mirek2_> a lot of actions are hidden under a right-click menu, I believe, which is horrible usability-wise
<mirek2_> @astron: I disagree
<astron247> it is.
<mirek2_> I'm sure there are many people who write long documents, but aren't power-users
<astron247> long, doesnt mean incredibly complicated
<astron247> -,
<mirek2_> 6 levels is not that complicated...
<mirek2_> I wouldn't say our wiki structure is too complicated
<mirek2_> yet there have been times when we've hit that heading 6 boundary
<mirek2_> anyway, can we agree to keep at least 6 levels?
<astron247> also, consider that for everyone who uses only level 1,2,3, maybe 4 all the other levels will be in the way.
<astron247> @guess we can, seems some kind of consensus
<astron247> @mirek, that is
<mirek2_> I've previously suggested showing only the next-up level
<astron247> hm right
<alexander_> My point is that they're only in the way if one uses the formatting dialog, right?
<mirek2_> i.e. if you use heading 1, you only need heading 2
<astron247> thats what mso does, too, no?
<mirek2_> if you've used headings 1-3, you only need heading 4
<mirek2_> @alex: they're in the way no matter what
<mirek2_> @astron: no clue about what Office does
<astron247> will try tomorrow or so. (but id have to reboot to get into windows)
<mirek2_> anyway, 6 levels minimum -- agree?
<astron247> yes from me.
<alexander_> @mirek: If the needs for most of the users are satsfied without opening the dialog that would be an advantage
<alexander_> okay
<mirek2_> alright
<astron247> @alex: what dlg do you actually mean?
<astron247> the floating window?
<alexander_> yes
<astron247> okay. but the toolbar style selector would work similarly to the floating window, no?
<astron247> thus it would be just as bad there...
<astron247> (IMO)
<alexander_> I shows only a subset of the available styles
<mirek2_> well, if a redesign does happen, we could implement showing only the currently-used headings and the next one up
<astron247> sounds sensible to me
<mirek2_> in any case, that's discussion for another day
<alexander_> agree
<mirek2_> I think we should leave a new default document template to 3.7
<mirek2_> and focus on templates, the splash, and the start screen for now
<astron247> okay, then
<alexander_> Ok
<astron247> okay, more esc call stuff ... kendy asked for approval on the new windows look
<mirek2_> I don't like the menubar look
<alexander_> The one with the slight gradient for the toolbar
<alexander_> and that white menu background?
<astron247> i gave it to him, but the white "triangles" at the sides look really weird – i hope he can iron that out
<astron247> @alex: yes
<mirek2_> Kendy seems intent on using Aero glass
<mirek2_> he's trying all sorts of hacks to make it work
<astron247> what i think would look far better is just a simple gradient in the beckground
<mirek2_> background?
<alexander_> yes, why should we use aero if all other apps don't
<mirek2_> what do you mean by background?
<astron247> @mirek: yes, sorry my music tastes taking over :)
<mirek2_> @alex: well, Office does, and it's our main competitor
<astron247> i mean behind the menu
<mirek2_> you mean, without using Aero glass?
<mirek2_> I agree
<astron247> yes, office does is a poor argument
<alexander_> http://www.theverge.com/2012/6/13/3082649/macbook-pro-review-retina-display-15-inch
<astron247> will upload a mockup
<alexander_> That version won't use aero anymore either
<mirek2_> I believe you mean to post about Windows 8
<mirek2_> not the macbook
<mirek2_> @astron: I agree; I'm just saying that, out of "all other apps", Office is most relevant
<mirek2_> I also don't like Aero glass
<mirek2_> would also prefer a white menu background
<mirek2_> but Kendy is intent on using glass
<astron247> @mirek: you wont change him, but we can make the best out of it
<mirek2_> I'll tell him that if he can't do something about it, then he should make the background solid
<astron247> right.
<mirek2_> there's already a bug about it
<mirek2_> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=50036
<mirek2_> anyway, anything else from the call?
<astron247> bit.ly/JCPynv
<astron247> is what i think would look cleaner than the current solution
<mirek2_> better
<mirek2_> try it on black, just to see
<mirek2_> whether the text is readable enough
<astron247> ive already added a black background
<mirek2_> you mean the blue side on the right?
<astron247> yes, the windows have blue tint, thus it's bluish
<astron247> +a
<astron247> but its actually an ugly black squre in my svg
<astron247> +a
<mirek2_> kendy sent http://artax.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~kendy/design-list/toolbar-gradient.png
<mirek2_> so we do have to target black
<alexander_> the toolbars looks alright I think
<mirek2_> I agree
<mirek2_> the menubar looks awful, though, I think
<alexander_> indeed
<astron247> yes, subotmial, but readable at least
<mirek2_> anyway, anything else from the ESC call?
<astron247> okay... let me check mmeks mail...
<mirek2_> also, alex, is it ok if I attend this coming week?
<mirek2_> or would you like to?
<astron247> right, it would be cool if you could check out markus color bar stuff ... theres tons of known ui bugs, so maybe send some feedback to
<alexander_> @mirek: that'd be alright
<mirek2_> hm... I'd need to compile libreoffice first
<astron247> me ... so i could filter what we know already
<mirek2_> @alex: which of the two?
<alexander_> the first
<mirek2_> ok
<astron247> @mirek: no, you can get something from dev-builds.libreoffice.org
<mirek2_> http://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/Linux-x86_10-Release_Configuration/libreoffice-3-6/current/
<astron247> yup
<astron247> should be it.
<mirek2_> dev-test?
<mirek2_> should I know about anything before installing?
<mirek2_> I suppose I should uninstall my current version first
<astron247> no need to uninstall ... it will install in /opt
<alexander_> I think that's not needed
<astron247> http://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/Linux-x86_10-Release_Configuration/libreoffice-3-6/current/libreoffice-3-6~2012-06-14_21.47.01_LibO-Dev_3.6.0beta1_Linux_x86_install-deb_en-US.tar.gz should be your ticket
<astron247> to the wonderland that is 3.6
<astron247> one thing id recommend against is installing the stuff in desktop-integration ... since that will probably overwrite your existing libo menu entries
<mirek2_> ok
<astron247> also, theres some sort of readme how to be install it, essentially go to folder in the command line and install al with "dpkg -i *"
<astron247> - be
<mirek2_> alright
<mirek2_> I'll do that later
<astron247> good.
<mirek2_> anything else from the call?
<astron247> oh ... yeah, i said sth about our splash screen contest, so the devs now know
<astron247> (inclusion in beta 3)
<astron247> – seems to be fine with michael
<astron247> thats all 
<mirek2_> great
<mirek2_> is that all?
<mirek2_> from the call?
<astron247> yup
<mirek2_> alright
<mirek2_> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Call%20for%20Templates
<mirek2_> alex, have you downsized/vectorized your templates?
<alexander_> I tried it for some, but the version using the svg was often bgger
<mirek2_> even without the added bitmap?
<alexander_> I think I can send you a simpler version of vintage
<astron247> really?
<astron247> yes, please do send that to us
<mirek2_> have you cleared the defs on the SVG first?
<astron247> oh one more thing from the call ... björn dosnt like your ubuntu one usage very much :)
<astron247> do you feel comfortable yet pushing to git?
<alexander_> more or less
<alexander_> @mirek: What do you mean?
<mirek2_> @alex: In Inkscape: File > Vacuum Defs
<mirek2_> there's also http://libregraphicsworld.org/blog/entry/introducing-svg-cleaner
<mirek2_> alex?
<mirek2_> have you cleared the defs on the SVG first?
<alexander_> I wait a sec
<mirek2_> you're clearing them now, then, I guess
<alexander_> yes
<mirek2_> how big is your SVG, btw?
<astron247> @mirek: thanks for the svg cleaner link. ill have a look at that
<alexander_> depends, some 11 MB
<alexander_> but there are issues with filers in Impress
<alexander_> the SVG iosn't rendered as in inkscape
<alexander_> *filters
<astron247> huh? but then surely there are tons of bitmaps in there.
<astron247> also, ive checked out inkscapes filters and lots of them seemed ... gaudy...
<astron247> anyone else a similar impression?
<mirek2_> I agree
<astron247> @alex: yes, filters arent rendered correctly, which means i cant use the modern logo in the about box
<mirek2_> I've tried the filters, but I found that vector graphics look much better without them
<mirek2_> anyway, let's look at all the submitted templates
<mirek2_> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Call%20for%20Templates
<mirek2_> to be honest, I'm not entirely happy with any submission
<mirek2_> "Progress" is the one I'm most happy with
<mirek2_> though it needs to use Liberation fonts
<mirek2_> and I might like the title screen to use white text for the title, as in the original conception
<mirek2_> http://spiceofdesign.deviantart.com/gallery/#/d4qwtkj
<mirek2_> btw, we'll need to mention Caleb Riley aka. spiceofdesign in Credits if we go for it
<mirek2_> as it's his design
<mirek2_> anyway, what do you think of the templates?
<mirek2_> anyone?
<astron247> faves are lush green, progress, typography, hexagons, clean inspiration (no order)
<astron247> but as i said before, i usually don't work with templates and start from scratch
<astron247> * re: typography: it needs better contrast and it certainly wont work with liberation
<alexander_> Did anyone contact Caleb?
* mirek2 (d5dcf47d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.220.244.125) hat #libreoffice-design betreten
<astron247> hello?
<mirek2> I'm here
<mirek2> got disconnected again
<astron247> oh god empathy...
<mirek2> not on empathy
<mirek2> but on the web interface
<astron247> i clicked copy and it cleared all text.
<mirek2> I should really think about setting up empathy
<alexander_> btw Vintage has 370 KB but looks rather awful
<astron247> okay, alex asked, if you have contacted caleb
<mirek2> Alex, I believe you will be responsible for publishing the log
<alexander_> Ok
<mirek2> keep that in mind -- perhaps keep a backup just in case
* mirek2_ hat die Verbindung getrennt (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
<mirek2> yes, I have contacted caleb
<alexander_> ah, apparently Xchat doesn't keep the whole conversation
<mirek2> he agreed with us going ahead with "Progress"
<astron247> can you get him to send a blanket statement to the list?
<mirek2> but doesn't want the templates from http://spiceofdesign.deviantart.com/gallery/#/d52vby2 to get included
<mirek2> CC0 is too much for him
<mirek2> CC-by would be acceptable
<mirek2> but, as Michael said, we need CC0 to guarantee users can make derivative works out of the bundled templates without restriction
<mirek2> @astron: what kind of statement?
<astron247> hm, i see calebs point though
<mirek2> I agree
<mirek2> I told him that we would still mention him on the Credits page
<mirek2> he hasn't responded yet
<mirek2> (but I haven't given him enough time to)
<mirek2> (just sent my latest response today)
<astron247> in that case, that he makes all the templates he makes available for us as CC0 (which would then only be one)
<mirek2> I'd prefer something more specific to "Progress"
<alexander_> otherwise that template based on his design would need to be remove, I guessẞ
<astron247> you know what michael'd prefer.
<mirek2> like "I hereby agree that I release the intellectual property within Progress under the CC0 license."
<astron247> maybe discuss if thats enough with michael
<astron247> ianal
<mirek2> I'll try that.
<astron247> okay... ill need to leave in a bit, so id like to ask sth OT
<mirek2> go ahead
<astron247> did you send the mail to the website list, mirek?
<mirek2> which one?
<astron247> (asking about the wiki polling stuff)
<mirek2> yes
<astron247> anyone outcomes?
<astron247> -one
<mirek2> I need to find it first
<mirek2> hm... I was sure I sent it, but now I can't find it
<mirek2> oh, ok, I found it
<mirek2> no response
<astron247> oh... do you mind poking again?
<mirek2> it's called "Poll2" on the mailing list
<astron247> right
<mirek2> alright
<astron247> thanks very much!
<astron247> also say that it might prove useful if we had it for the splash
<astron247> (it might be a very short time frame of a day, but ... its some justification)
<astron247> also, bye, ill go now! nice chatting with you.
<mirek2> bye, then
<alexander_> ok, cu
<astron247> (i have the whole chat till here as a log still, so mail me if you need that)
* astron247 (~frootzowr@dslb-088-072-037-154.pools.arcor-ip.net) hat #libreoffice-design verlassen
<alexander_> what else do we need to discuss?
<mirek2> hm, I'm not sure if it makes sense to discuss anything between the two of us
<mirek2> is there anything you'd like to discuss?
<mirek2> we could discuss the general usability of the submitted templates
<alexander_> sure
<mirek2> if you'd like
<mirek2> also, could you convert the text on your templates to Liberation
<alexander_> I'll upload the newer versions to the wiki, yes
<mirek2> great
<mirek2> how much have you simplified Metropolis?
<mirek2> I feel like that could be drastically simplified
<alexander_> I think those single-slide masterpages shouldn't look to complicated
<alexander_> e.g. ThreeNotes isn't really useful, IMO
<mirek2> I agree
<alexander_> what do you think
<alexander_> Maybe if we can somehow include full templates in 3.7
<mirek2> the only artefacts needed on Metropolis seem to be the header ribbon and the "lights" coming from the corners
<mirek2> full templates?
<mirek2> what do you mean by that?
<alexander_> And regarding new default stlyes, should we set up a whole new whiteboardẞ
<alexander_> Impress templates with several masterpages
<mirek2> do we need that?
<mirek2> @alex: I'm not sure about new default styles
<mirek2> perhaps it'd be better to get the styles UI more usable first
<mirek2> get rid of some of the bundled styles, perhaps
<mirek2> or at least hide them until they're needed
<alexander_> that would be the long-term solution, I think
<mirek2> I don't think the current defaults are so bad
<mirek2> and looking through all of the ones we have will certainly take a lot of time and effort as well
<alexander_> With 'full templates' I meant otp files with several masterpages, e.g. one for content, one for the first slide etc.
<mirek2> isn't that possible now, though?
<mirek2> different backgrounds for different layouts
<mirek2> most of the submitted templates are that way
<alexander_> One can open such a template, but not use it via that sidebar
<alexander_> yes
<alexander_> IIRC, LibreOffice doesn't allow to specify a certain background for a certain layout, though
<alexander_> one needs to select each individually
<alexander_> But the latest Apache OO seemed to have worked around that issue:
<alexander_> Based on the layout of the page it would automatically choose a certain masterpage
<mirek2> cool
<mirek2> anyway, I'll have to go now as well
<mirek2> sorry to leave so early
<mirek2> you can publish the log, right?
<alexander_> Yes, I'll updload what I have and mail astron about the rest
<alexander_> Ok, bye
<mirek2> bye