Design/Meetings/2012-07-15

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Attendees

Log

15:58:59 astron: o hai, you two
15:59:02 mirek: hi astron
15:59:18 reisi007: (Slow typer) - Telko would be better IMHO
15:59:19 reisi007: Hi Astron ;)
15:59:46 astron: so, you are already discussing?
15:59:50 reisi007: No ;)
16:00:28 mirek: btw, did last week's meeting not take place?
16:00:37 mirek: it's not on the wiki
16:00:38 reisi007: No auto - correct here ; and Nope
16:00:44 reisi007: no meeting
16:00:46 astron: not so much, no. but i discussed a bit with florian
16:01:10 reisi007: I am Florian
16:01:22 astron: i know.
16:01:35 astron: incidentally, is alex already back from holiday already?
16:01:51 mirek: I don't know
16:03:07 astron: then, maybe wait a few more minutes before we ceremoniously begin the chat?
16:03:16 mirek: alright
16:03:20 reisi007: ok
16:03:33 mirek: while we wait, could you give a summary of this week's ESC call?
16:04:43 astron: okay, this week it was pretty short (only 50 mins).
* i gave a summary about the splash/branding stuff & people finding it too green.
16:04:56 reisi007: ;)
16:05:19 astron: michael said it was fine – i proposed to think about again after 3.6.2 if we get too much hatemail
16:06:04 mirek: :) ok
16:06:04 astron: * Mac finder bg for installer is always official artwork
16:06:15 astron: – not ideal
16:06:32 astron: * still haven't pushed the gnome icons in (sorry)
16:06:42 mirek: that's ok
16:06:45 astron: –need to do by monday
16:07:33 astron: lots of talk about gerrit, some gsoc students havent written their reports etc.
16:08:41 astron: rainer said qa was none too exciting & 3.6 sailing +/- smoothly
16:08:58 mirek: alright
16:09:04 astron:  RC2 will probably be tagged on monday.
16:09:20 mirek: ok
16:09:27 mirek: is that all?
16:09:30 astron: other things that are interesting: andrzej, the guy with impress remote has started to work on his project
16:09:41 mirek: great
16:09:43 reisi007: Cool idea ;)
16:10:08 astron: uhm, rafael has posted a mail on ux-advise.
16:10:28 astron: oh and kendy's back from holiday...
16:10:55 astron: [the last three things weren't discussed at the ESC call, as you might imagine.]
16:11:29 mirek: ok, nice
16:11:39 mirek: I didn't notice rafael's mail for some reason
16:11:47 astron: okay, then, i suppose we could start with the mail from rafael..?
16:11:57 mirek: alright
16:12:18 mirek: about the selection mode: it's there mainly for tablet users
16:12:20 reisi007: Didn't have it either
16:12:32 mirek: and it's basically a copy of Gnome's behavior
16:12:37 mirek: but it does need a better icon
16:12:50 mirek: the green tick seems to mean "done"
16:13:02 mirek: I think Gnome has a better icon
16:13:30 astron: right, also, what would be good, if selection mode were turned on automatically by right-clicking on a document symbol [bringing us in line
                              with gnome and win8]
16:13:48 mirek: okay
16:13:57 mirek: should we lose the checkbox-on-hover, though?
16:14:17 mirek: seems like there are too many ways to select something
16:14:25 astron: let me have a look at the mockups...
16:14:35 mirek: btw, does Gnome really trigger selection mode on right-click?
16:14:49 mirek: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Templates_and_documents_rework
16:15:04 reisi007: Link please (to the mockup) - And there was the linbk ;)
16:15:25 astron: yes. you can try in gnome documents.
16:15:36 astron: (i have 0.40 or so ...)
16:15:39 mirek: I don't have them installed anymore
16:15:42 reisi007: I would leace it
16:15:43 mirek: they were too buggy
16:15:54 mirek: @reisi: I linked it already
16:16:07 reisi007: mirek: I know
16:16:15 reisi007: You are quicker then me ;)
16:16:28 mirek: :)
16:16:52 astron: okay, uhm, i think the visual cue of the checkbox should remain.
16:16:53 mirek: astron, your thoughts?
16:17:10 mirek: you mean checkbox on hover?
16:17:11 astron: maybe even an empty checkbox if things are not selected.
16:17:21 astron: (unconditionally)
16:17:45 mirek: so you're saying to always show the checkbox?
16:17:50 mirek: and get rid of selection mode?
16:17:51 mirek: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:T_select.png
16:18:10 reisi007: I would get rid of 
16:18:53 reisi007: it
16:19:04 mirek: ok
16:19:23 mirek: astron?
16:19:25 astron: why get rid of it? it is my understanding that when you click on the document symbol in selection mode, it is selected; while in normal mode, it is opened
16:19:35 mirek: yes
16:19:49 mirek: the proposed behavior, though, is:
16:20:05 mirek: remove selection mode, use visible checkboxes to select templates
16:20:06 mirek: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/7/7c/T_select.png
16:20:18 mirek: and launch templates when the user clicks outside of the checkbox
16:20:24 mirek: (i.e. title or thumbnail)
16:20:52 astron: getting rid of selection mode would mean that you could only click the checkboxes – which would probably limit applicability of the ui on touch systems
16:21:00 reisi007: IMHO Selection mode is also possible, when a checkbox appears on hover (IMHO THAT is much more beautiful)
16:21:13 astron: (as the checkboxes are pretty small.)
16:21:18 reisi007: astron: Have not thought about touch devices...
16:21:25 mirek: astron: no, the user could tick the checkbox with touch
16:21:36 mirek: these are pretty big: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/7/7c/T_select.png
16:21:46 astron: i see them right in front of me.
16:22:04 astron: and i know i am fatfingering my phone all the time :)
16:22:19 reisi007: Keep in mind: On touch devices the selection mode is fullscreen.
16:22:42 mirek: we could have padding around the checkbox
16:22:57 reisi007: and I really don't think this is working pretty good. Doesn't it need to much space??
16:23:06 astron: wouldnt that just increase the number of files that could be shown?
16:23:12 astron: [@reisi]
16:23:29 reisi007: (Space on touch devices...
16:23:59 reisi007: especially width)
16:24:25 mirek: reisi007: just to be clear: by "touch devices", we mean devices that accept touch input, but run traditional operating systems
16:24:37 reisi007: okay
16:24:42 mirek: like the new breed of hybrid notebooks that's showing up
16:25:02 reisi007: Okay..
16:25:33 astron: @mirek: showing up already? or rather will show up with win8?
16:26:14 reisi007: Keeping in mind touch devices, the checkboxes *must* be visible all the time...
16:26:21 reisi007: astron: Showing up now
16:26:45 astron: and i thought i read too many gadget blogs...
16:26:53 astron: clearly im not uptodate
16:27:12 mirek: astron: asus transformer might count, since it also runs windows
16:27:24 mirek: but I mainly meant those planned for Windows 8
16:27:26 astron: okay.
16:27:31 reisi007: Well, staring with the touch PCs in late 2008 [OK good working ones in 2010+later) it is life
16:28:27 astron: okay ... back to the topic.
16:29:09 astron: i think, we should stick with selection mode for now, but add the right-click funtionality and think of a better icon
16:29:35 mirek: alright
16:29:39 reisi007: ok
16:30:29 mirek: on that note, what about the icons for the dialog?
16:30:45 astron: yes..? what about them?
16:31:25 mirek: we need to make them
16:31:36 mirek: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Tango_Icons
16:31:42 mirek: starting with "Create Template"
16:31:59 mirek: we already have a template icon
16:32:06 mirek: but I couldn't find an SVG version of it
16:32:11 astron: can you maybe start on them, ill help along after 3.6 rc3 is out
16:32:13 mirek: astron, do you have it?
16:32:18 astron: yes, i do.
16:32:32 astron: sorry, i should really upload that...
16:34:28 astron: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/87946285/libreoffice/presconf.zip
16:34:38 mirek: great, thanks
16:34:45 mirek: about " Can we rename the toolbar buttons to "Create Template", "Import Template" to “Create”, “Import”? Since we are already in the Template
                             manager dialog box, “Create” will only mean “Create Template”."
16:34:55 astron: as a make-shift thing ive uploaded this to db... ill see how to commit this to the repo
16:34:55 mirek: what do you think?
16:35:29 reisi007: mirek: Would be a great idea
16:35:41 astron: we do mention "template" somewhere in the title bar, no? then yes.
16:35:41 reisi007: Getting some space ;)
16:36:21 mirek: ok, I'm for it as well
16:37:07 astron: uhm... btw, id love if you could write the reply, mirek :)
16:37:16 mirek: I will
16:37:26 mirek: as soon as we get through all the topics
16:37:42 mirek: I agree with the searchbox as well
16:38:33 mirek: about the close button: do you know what he means?
16:38:38 astron: i think the searchbox is a ui-minimalism thing ... although i am not sure what ui-minimalism means.
16:39:09 mirek: not really
16:39:38 mirek: ui-minimalism is about avoiding repetition and removing unnecessary elements
16:40:04 astron: for the close button, see his blog: http://npcdoomlibreoffice.wordpress.com/2012/07/09/template-dialog-ui-searching/search_3/
16:40:32 mirek: oh
16:40:58 mirek: on second thought, having a button to trigger the searchbox is an extra step, so, yes, it is ui-minimalism
16:41:00 mirek: sorry
16:41:07 mirek: do we need the close button?
16:41:44 mirek: can't we make this dialog into a standalone window, so that gnome 3 puts a close button on it?
16:42:05 astron: i vote pro close button, since i am always annoyed by modal windows not getting a close button in the titlebar under gnome shell :)
16:42:22 astron: on the other hand it somewhat breaks the design, i do see that.
16:42:47 mirek: that's what I'm saying -- can't we make it so that gnome 3 puts a close button on it?
16:42:54 mirek: after all, it is a template manager on its own right
16:43:01 mirek: it probably shouldn't be a modal dialog
16:43:12 astron: making it non-modal should be enough
16:43:14 mirek: since it is disconnected from the modules
16:43:18 mirek: and stands on its own
16:43:19 astron: (for gnome shell at least)
16:43:23 mirek: yes, I agree
16:43:32 mirek: would you be ok with that?
16:44:04 astron: we should probably say whether the template chooser is a dialogue or a main window and then decide.
16:44:33 astron: it is weird hybrid somehow
16:44:39 mirek: alright: I would say it's a main window
16:44:44 mirek: it can stand on its own
16:45:01 mirek: and although this use case would be rare, the user can really only use it just to manage his templates
16:45:08 mirek: without going into any module
16:45:39 astron: but it can only be opened from another module, not individually
16:45:58 mirek: what about the start screen?
16:46:43 astron: can be opened individually
16:46:48 astron: (if you mean that)
16:46:51 reisi007: The new one
16:46:53 reisi007: ??
16:47:09 mirek: I mean: the template manager has a special shortcut in there, on the same level as other modules
16:47:15 astron: hm, i think mirek means the Start Center
16:47:26 astron: ah, right
16:47:45 reisi007: I don't like the color
16:48:00 astron: .) 
16:48:53 reisi007: I know that this is a personal thing, but just compare the menu (file - Edit - ...) of 3.5 and 3.6
16:48:57 mirek: btw, not sure if this is the case for all platforms, but on Ubuntu, Math doesn't have its own shortcut
16:49:16 astron: true that it has its own shortcut, but so does the file chooser
16:49:50 mirek: which could, theoretically, also evolve into an app in its own right
16:50:00 mirek: such as the one planned for Android
16:50:11 mirek: which certainly is a file manager in its own right
16:50:18 astron: its quite clear that the file chooser is just a utility window from my pov
16:50:28 mirek: right now, yes
16:50:49 mirek: it's also reflected in its name: file chooser, not manager
16:51:04 mirek: on the other hand, gnome documents is a file manager
16:51:12 mirek: and an app in its own right
16:51:23 mirek: even though it's theoretically not so different
16:51:44 reisi007: https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/RcRUwUcrhsBJ4V7hNMxZX1wuDgG3ewUenk9FLDMEkQ8?feat=directlink <--- LibreOffice 3.6 seems "false"
16:52:00 reisi007: sorry "not a 100% windows program"
16:53:21 astron: reisi, this gets us a bit off-track here ... but do discuss this with mirek later on. im now happy that mirek & kendy did those changes as the new
                              all-green stuff doesn't clash with the blue menu bars etc.
16:54:34 reisi007: +1 okay
16:55:22 mirek: astron: do you think we could qualify the template manager as its own window, then?
16:56:18 reisi007: mirek: If we do that, we IMHO must create a shortcut to only start the template manager (Or am I wrong)
16:56:25 astron: i am really not sure.
16:56:56 mirek: ok
16:56:56 astron: what i think would be worthwhile is integrating the template manager stuff directly into the start center
16:57:13 mirek: how so?
16:57:29 mirek: to be honest, I prefer having a template manager in a separate window
16:57:37 mirek: I don't like the start center much
16:57:58 astron: me neither.
16:58:03 reisi007: IMHO there is no space for a new item in the start center
16:58:55 mirek: to be honest, what I think would be ideal is replacing the start center with a simple file manager
16:59:06 mirek: like the Android app
16:59:06 reisi007: Wait a second - uploading screenshot
16:59:07 astron: but if the start center could be the main stage for templates i think that would really improve it. i would start by ripping out all the wasted space and then
16:59:38 astron: offering "New" "Open Recent" and "Templates" and give templates the most space
17:00:29 astron: although you likely couldnt really manage templates this way.
17:00:30 mirek: I would still prefer having a file manager instead
17:00:49 astron: okay. that was too ambitious for now anyway
17:00:56 reisi007: https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/P1BPZc-5J_5qUdXRDTxVmVwuDgG3ewUenk9FLDMEkQ8?feat=directlink
17:01:12 reisi007: Screenshot of MS Office 22003 installation
17:01:38 mirek: right
17:01:58 reisi007: IMHO THe template manager (As well as a non-existing "Dictionary Editor") would be great @ LibreOffice tools
17:02:19 mirek: however, we're not looking to ape MS Office
17:02:42 mirek: is there a folder on Windows called LibreOffice tools?
17:02:44 astron: sure, but reisi might be right anyway (for the template thingie at least)
17:02:54 astron: no folder there
17:02:57 reisi007: mirek: But they have grat ideas (sometimes). And it is somehow logically not to spam the folder
17:03:19 mirek: I agree that MS Office has some good ideas
17:03:29 astron: but we have a folder LibreOffice which contains Writer, Base, Calc ... LibreOffice (the start center)
17:03:37 mirek: however, I don't think we need a special folder to hold the template dialog
17:03:49 mirek: by itself
17:03:50 reisi007: The best thing: We could add more tools by the time ( Maybe a shortcut to start the macor editor)
17:03:57 astron: right, but a menu entry might actually be a good idea.
17:04:05 mirek: but there's not really a need for that, though
17:04:15 reisi007: mirek:  No, only the macro editor would be senceless, but later... ;)
17:04:34 mirek: I can understand why a user might want to launch the templates first
17:04:45 mirek: after all, it is a good starting point for creating documents
17:04:54 mirek: I don't think we need to have it in a special tools folder
17:05:19 mirek: after all, we don't have the start center in a special folder, and it really is just a gateway to the various modules
17:05:32 astron: no, and we shouldnt have a tools folder, because you dont start a folder if you hvae less than three items
17:05:48 mirek: agreed
17:06:08 reisi007: Maybe adding a Option ( ;) ) either to start the Start center or the template manager (which has templates like "Empty Writer sheet")
17:06:40 mirek: we might consider getting rid of the start center altogether
17:06:46 mirek: but adding more options isn't really an option
17:06:56 astron: i see what you did there :)
17:07:11 mirek: :)
17:08:11 astron: ugh ... the raison d eter for the start center is that mac users needed to see something when they closed the last document window (apparently)
17:08:24 mirek: d'etre, you mean
17:08:27 astron: ... i shouldnt try to flaunt my french
17:08:55 astron: and yes i do
17:09:18 mirek: btw, I've never understood why we don't split LibreOffice into modules on the Mac
17:09:24 mirek: it's inconsistent with Linux and Windows
17:09:51 mirek: MS Office and iWork are split into individual apps
17:10:00 reisi007: Hm, good starting point... Maybe we should put it on the dev list ;)
17:10:31 astron: ive never used it on the mac, so cant answer that. but then, i think the module splitting go away, as libo is just a single app anyway.
17:10:53 mirek: I actually like the module splitting
17:10:59 astron: we should rather emphasise the core brand, i.e. libo, instead of those weak subbrands like writer
17:10:59 reisi007: Me too
17:11:16 mirek: it makes it easier to switch windows
17:11:26 reisi007: Why "Writer"?? "*LibreOffice* Writer"
17:12:15 mirek: given that the LibreOffice logo appears on each of the module icons, I don't think that's a problem
17:12:17 astron: at the very least we should try to get sane and localisable names that describe what the app does like "LibreOffice Text Document[s]"
17:12:43 mirek: if we were to do that, I'd go for something short
17:12:47 astron: (which most linux distros do anyway
17:12:49 astron: )
17:12:51 mirek: like "LibreOffice Doc"
17:13:06 reisi007: astron: +1 "LibreOffice Text" or mireks idea
17:13:14 mirek: to be honest, though, I don't think the subbrands are that weak
17:13:30 mirek: I've heard "Open up Writer" quite a few times
17:13:36 mirek: or "Open up Calc"
17:13:56 reisi007: writer: 577.000.000
17:13:58 mirek: it seems silly to say "Open up Text Document" or "LibreOffice Text Document"
17:14:06 mirek: and open up LibreOffice is just too generic
17:14:10 reisi007: word: 2.430.000.000
17:14:14 astron: start a new text document in libo?
17:14:47 mirek: still not as pretty or efficient as "Open up Writer"
17:15:05 astron: but translatable eg. into chinese
17:15:11 mirek: honestly, having everything in one app without modules separated adds an unnecessary step to launching these apps
17:15:30 mirek: and the modules are so different that it really doesn't make sense to refer to them with one name
17:15:44 mirek: just like Calligra has different names for its modules
17:16:01 mirek: (and given the amount of modules it has, I'm sure people would get lost without the module names)
17:16:02 astron: but they have different executables as well
17:16:32 astron: afaik theres no single executable called calligra
17:17:03 astron: but for us we only have "soffice[.exe]"
17:17:09 mirek: ux-implementation-level
17:17:34 astron: i know, but it leads to bugs like this: http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?id=0d2afe08450ad041afa21adf48d6c6d90e8cc4e0
17:17:49 mirek: the user doesn't see the difference of whether there are several modules in one application or several applications
17:18:29 mirek: tbh, I don't think "Exit" really belongs in the menubar anymore
17:18:43 astron: and people not understanding why their all their documents are gone not just the one that they worked with
17:19:25 astron: (if they had multiple libo windows open)
17:19:49 mirek: honestly, I think "Exit" should really only apply to the module
17:19:52 mirek: if that can be done
17:20:11 mirek: since the application shown in the launcher is in fact a module
17:20:31 mirek: on the Mac, though, Exit should apply to the whole app
17:20:33 astron: but still the point is users occasionally do notice that it really is just one app
17:21:53 mirek: for a regular user, a launcher icon = app
17:22:11 mirek: most people don't go snooping for what executables are actually running
17:22:33 astron: thats right, but when it crashes, they notice
17:22:39 mirek: and we shouldn't base the UI on the underlying technology if it goes against users' expectations
17:23:02 astron: in any case, lets treat the template manager as a main window, i guess.
17:23:11 mirek: alright
17:24:02 mirek: about the selection mode...
17:24:07 mirek: what did we decide in the end?
17:24:12 mirek: just improve the icon?
17:24:49 mirek: or get rid of selection mode altogether?
17:25:30 astron: no, keep it, add right click handling, imporve icon
17:25:38 mirek: alright
17:25:48 astron: okay, then the search bar?
17:26:07 mirek: I'd have a smaller version in the toolbar
17:26:36 mirek: agree?
17:26:38 astron: no.
17:26:59 mirek: why not?
17:27:19 astron: i'd say: move the selection mode into the toolbar and the search bar into document type selction area
17:27:29 astron: sounds like a saner ui hierarchy to me
17:28:05 mirek: actually, the searchbox should search only the templates of the selected filetype
17:28:15 mirek: (if "all" is selected, then it searches all filetypes)
17:28:28 astron: is there a good reason why it shouldnt search all types?
17:28:47 mirek: it would, but only under the "All" tab
17:28:53 astron: ah okay.
17:29:22 mirek: the selection mode button is at the top to be consistent with Gnome
17:30:03 mirek: alternatively, though, instead of the selection mode, we could simply use the long-tap gesture for selection
17:30:13 mirek: which is quite standard on mobile OS's
17:30:33 mirek: and, for mouse, keep the on-hover checkbox behavior
17:32:40 astron: do you know the gallery app from android 3.2? (possibly its only cyanogen, but i recently saw it on a samsung too)
17:33:19 mirek: I've seen screenshots
17:33:25 mirek: don't run anything with android, though
17:33:36 astron: damn ... i mean android 2.3
17:34:06 mirek: hm, that I haven't even seen screenshots of
17:34:07 mirek: what about it?
17:34:12 astron: anyway, long pressing there leads to a selection mode being enabled, and then you can just tap normally to mark everything
17:34:27 mirek: yes, that's what I was trying to say
17:34:50 mirek: that perhaps we don't really need a visible "Selection mode" button
17:35:06 mirek: since people using touch should be used to the long-press gesture
17:35:31 astron: okay, then maybe scrap it
17:35:41 mirek: alright, great :)
17:36:18 astron: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/87946285/libreoffice/screenshot-1342287284921.png
17:36:25 astron: screenshot from my phone...
17:36:56 mirek: ok
17:37:17 mirek: about template creation
17:37:46 astron: no, wait .... so, we have the search bar directly in the toolbar?
17:37:56 mirek: yes
17:38:06 mirek: search box rather than bar
17:38:22 astron: wont that look ugly together with the "..." button?
17:38:38 astron: (and give the wrong cues about how to use the ui, too)
17:39:04 mirek: what do you mean?
17:39:22 mirek: also, we probably won't use a "..." icon for the tools menu
17:39:40 mirek: but rather a wrench or a gear
17:39:47 mirek: which is more standard for gnome icons
17:39:54 mirek: I mean tango icons
17:40:38 mirek: I don't think it will be confusing, tbh
17:42:10 astron: basically it will look like (ascii art ahead...)
[+] Create [→] Import                  [Search____] [...]
17:42:27 mirek: yes
17:42:40 mirek: though instead of "...", there will be a wrench or gear icon
17:43:00 astron: thus, it will (and gestalt principles will prove me right) look as if the search box and the wrench had somethign to do with each other
17:44:43 mirek: most applications that have tools button have it on the right
17:44:52 mirek: most applications with a search box feature it on the right as well
17:44:56 mirek: http://cloudfront.omgubuntu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Postler_004-500x347.png
17:45:09 mirek: here is how elementary's postler looks
17:45:12 mirek: I don't think it's really confusing
17:45:19 mirek: the searchbox is set apart visually
17:45:40 astron: your example doesnt relieve me of my concerns :)
17:46:13 astron: although the solution could be as simple as putting a separator between the two items
17:46:20 mirek: also, it's standard for advanced search options, if there are any, to have a button within the search box
17:47:08 astron: would you agree to the separator?
17:48:04 mirek: To be honest, I think a separator would be rather ugly and unnecessary, but if it's needed to move along with this topic, then I guess so
17:48:22 mirek: also, Chrome has a tools button right next to its searchbox/address bar
17:48:54 mirek: I don't think it's mistaken for an "advanced search options" button, though
17:49:07 astron: sure but chrome doesnt have a huge amount of space between the left and the right side of the toolbar
17:49:51 astron: [empty space, that is]
17:50:42 astron: (btw, hello manas.)
17:50:54 manas: hi guys!
17:51:12 mirek: hello
17:51:40 manas: am interested in designing, want to be a mute spectator in the meeting... pplease don't mind me
17:51:42 mirek: astron: and you think the way Postler does it is confusing?
17:51:51 mirek: manas: alright
17:52:11 astron: yes, a bit.
17:53:45 astron: also what would the wrench button sort by?
17:54:30 astron: (or rather: what sort options would it offer? only sort ascending/descending?)
17:55:06 mirek: you mean what kind of sorting options the dialog would offer?
17:55:10 mirek: that really depends on the developers
17:55:29 mirek: it could be as complex as that found in standard file managers
17:55:41 mirek: (sort by name, date, author, etc.)
17:55:48 astron: okay.
17:55:54 mirek: or there might not be any sorting options at all
17:56:10 astron: why is this not specced yet?
17:57:06 astron: (sorry if thats rude to ask like this, but the question still stands)
17:57:37 mirek: will do
17:58:06 mirek: I suppose name, date, and author options are enough for now
17:58:23 mirek: do you think even http://danrabbit.deviantart.com/art/Device-Sync-Plug-202833108?q=gallery%3Adanrabbit%2F35453680&qo=3 is confusing?
17:58:43 mirek: or http://danrabbit.deviantart.com/gallery/35453680#/d3a8ver
18:00:57 mirek: how about having a space between the search box and the tools button instead of a visible separator?
18:01:16 astron: about the switchboard: i am not even sure why it needs a wrench menu. anyway, you can show me scores of those, and its good that elementary
                 has a hig, but i still dont like it all that much
18:01:32 astron: okay, visible space: sounds like a good idea, actually
18:02:50 mirek: ok, how big
18:02:53 mirek: approximately?
18:03:34 astron: good question. we could centre it between the last icon on the left and the icon on the right.... but thatd look ugly
18:04:14 astron: we could probably make the space 3/4 of an icon's width... and it might look better
18:04:46 mirek: 18px? isn't that a bit much?
18:06:15 astron: lets let rafael play with it and pick something sensible.
18:06:16 manas: Firefox (in windows) keeps the addons 6 px apart
18:06:49 mirek: ok, thanks
18:07:00 mirek: 6px sounds good
18:07:25 mirek: but I'll let rafael play with it, nonetheless
18:07:46 mirek: anyway, about template creation
18:08:22 astron: 6 px is too little to be visible, and also, we should rather refrain from specifying it in pixels
18:08:58 mirek: 6px is quite visible: it's 1/4 of a larger icon
18:09:14 mirek: in any case, I'll let Rafael pick the size
18:09:19 astron: okay.
18:09:32 astron: moving on...
18:09:34 mirek: anyway, about the create template button
18:09:37 manas: guys, noob question... I had sent 3 mock-ups to Rafael, how can I share them with u
18:09:49 mirek: upload them to the wiki
18:09:52 astron: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Templates_and_documents_rework
18:10:01 manas: thanks
18:10:02 mirek: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design
18:10:09 mirek: upload them to your user page
18:10:18 mirek: rather than the templates and documents rework page
18:10:42 mirek: your user page should be at https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:<username>
18:11:01 mirek: so, I assume, https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Manas ?
18:11:01 astron: right, as we've already decided which direction to go into, its wiser to embed your mockups into your user page
18:11:16 manas: thanks, are PDF acceptable? I read that you guys take PNG, SVG etc..
18:11:40 astron: the wiki cant make thumbnails from pdfs
18:12:15 mirek: but you can upload them nonetheless, if it's impossible for you to make a PNG or an SVG (or a JPG, if you're working with a bitmap)
18:12:54 astron: so png (good thumbnails) + svg (useful for others to play with, but flaky results with the thumbnails) is best
18:13:10 astron: still, as mirek says you can upload pdfs
18:13:47 manas: thanks
18:14:29 astron: so, mirek: template creation button...
18:14:43 mirek: yes...
18:15:14 mirek: ideally, it should open up a new file
18:15:41 mirek: and its save dialog should point to a template button and have the template filetype preselected
18:15:52 mirek: saving it should automatically add it to the template dialog
18:16:06 mirek: if that's impossible, then we probably shouldn't have that button
18:16:06 astron: well, we already have a toolbar icon for save as template
18:16:40 astron: so maybe we could have a special mode where the normal save button would be replaced by this save as template button
18:17:18 mirek: and does this button add the template to the template dialog?
18:17:28 mirek: or does it have to be imported?
18:17:45 astron: it just opens save as with the right file type.
18:18:15 astron: if you save in the right directory, the template manager will load the new template too
18:18:30 astron: (afaik)
18:19:03 mirek: is the right directory preselected?
18:19:20 mirek: (i.e. shown in the "Save as Template" dialog?)
18:19:22 astron: let me check
18:20:07 astron: its actually better than i thought...
18:20:22 astron: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/87946285/libreoffice/Screenshot%20from%202012-07-14%2020%3A19%3A55.png
18:20:39 astron: thats what the save button opens
18:21:06 mirek: I guess this would have to be updated as well, though
18:21:22 mirek: or perhaps not
18:21:24 astron: sure, but it is a good start
18:21:33 mirek: yes, it is
18:21:39 astron: rather replaced than updated you mean?
18:21:59 mirek: I guess
18:22:52 mirek: however, there would still be a problem, even with this button
18:23:10 astron: okay
18:23:14 mirek: suppose the user goes with "File > Save" or "File > Save as..."
18:23:33 astron: right, it would have to be customised further
18:23:53 mirek: should we get rid of the file saving functionality in this mode, then?
18:24:10 astron: and we'd need to have something like "LibreOffice Writer Template" in the titlebar
18:24:21 mirek: I'll be right back
18:24:25 astron: sure.
18:29:25 mirek: sorry, online webchat failed me again
18:29:55 astron: well, ill upload the log then.
18:30:01 mirek: great
18:31:05 mirek: anyway, I'll ask rafael if he could create this special mode
18:31:18 mirek: if not, then we won't have a create template button
18:31:39 astron: okay, so i think completely getting rid of saving a file is not practicable, as users might not want their template to be located in the default folder.
18:31:48 astron: right, do that.
18:32:35 mirek: astron: how would you propose to solve that, then?
18:33:57 mirek: I mean, saving the template to a custom location
18:34:04 astron: wait no... disable the usual saving functionality but add something like "save elsewhere" to the template saver
18:34:20 astron: (which would then trigger the normal save dialogue)
18:34:36 mirek: sounds good
18:34:43 astron: or is that too complicated? (although i thin kthe use case is rather a minority one)
18:34:47 mirek: can we move on?
18:34:57 mirek: I think it's good enough
18:35:13 mirek: alright
18:35:15 astron: okay, one more thing about the template dialogue, id like to discuss
18:35:30 mirek: yes?
18:35:39 astron: that is the buttons on the top: they look separated
18:35:51 astron: (again, see rafaels screenshot)
18:36:24 mirek: right
18:36:33 mirek: I'm not sure if/how that can be fixed
18:36:37 astron: since libo won't offer a ui element "selector buttons" would it make sense to display tabs instead?
18:37:46 mirek: I assume VCL doesn't have a losenge button
18:37:52 manas: I think check-boxes are the perfect candidate here
18:38:11 astron: "losenge"..? whats that?
18:39:08 mirek: I think that's what it's called
18:39:25 mirek: something odd is up with my connection
18:39:38 mirek: I can't access any other sites
18:39:44 astron: manas: that would be rather an abuse of checkboxes
18:39:58 mirek: this chat still seems to work, though, at least
18:40:05 astron: weird...
18:40:15 astron: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lozenge
18:40:19 mirek: checkboxes really wouldn't work in this case, I agree
18:40:43 astron: "A lozenge (◊), often referred to as a diamond, is a form of rhombus"
18:41:46 mirek: maybe I'm wrong
18:41:54 mirek: I just remember it refernced to as such
18:42:38 astron: http://www.tuaw.com/2007/06/24/mac-101-the-lozenge-button/
18:42:43 mirek: oh, nevermind, I got it confused with Mac's "hide toolbar" button
18:42:48 astron: right
18:43:10 astron: i think in gtk theyre called selector buttons
18:43:26 mirek: ok
18:43:43 mirek: not what I was thinking of, but fine just the same
18:44:07 mirek: anyway, do you think VCL doesn't support them?
18:44:35 mirek: I guess I'll ask rafael about this
18:45:03 astron: i think theyre unsupported, yes. essentially, i think they werent used much until apple introduced them as another visualisation of tabs
18:45:20 astron: and theyre likely not called selector buttons ...
18:45:28 mirek: right
18:45:29 astron: .. i just opened up glade
18:46:50 mirek: ok
18:46:58 mirek: I'll talk to rafael about it
18:47:14 mirek: do you think he would be able to implement VCL support for it?
18:47:22 mirek: or should we go with buttons for now?
18:47:26 astron: i have no idea.
18:48:08 mirek: ok, I'll ask that too
18:48:10 astron: (if he would be able to implement this – however, keep in mind, that eg. on windows this is not a native ui element)
18:48:51 astron: how do you feel about text links surrounded by a frame? that should get us somewhere close?
18:49:11 astron: (preferably without underlining)
18:49:23 mirek: there'd be a problem with the clickable area
18:49:31 astron: youre right
18:49:47 mirek: I think buttons are the second best for now, I guess
18:49:56 astron: alternatively, cutting off the edges of regular buttons might work
18:50:05 astron: youre probably right on that one
18:50:08 mirek: ok, I'll ask
18:50:20 mirek: anything else with the dialog?
18:50:39 astron: not if you dont have any other complaints
18:50:52 mirek: nope, I don't think so
18:51:17 manas: i think we should show the number of available templates
18:51:33 manas: based on the search as well as the buttons selected
18:52:02 manas: i.e. as a total count
18:52:12 mirek: is there a use case for that?
18:53:38 mirek: i.e. in which cases would it be useful for the user to know the number of templates he has?
18:53:56 mirek: otherwise, we might be unnecessarily cluttering up the UI for no good reason
18:53:56 manas: don't know... 
18:54:03 astron: we could brag with how many templates the web repository has. other than that i dont see anything
18:54:19 manas: i was thinking from a search results page perspective
18:55:11 mirek: I don't think it would be very helpful, tbh
18:55:23 astron: that makes a bit of sense, but still, id rather exclude that for now
18:55:29 mirek: and it would be a pain trying to fit it into the UI
18:55:50 mirek: can we move on?
18:55:57 astron: okay.
18:56:12 manas: ok
18:56:26 mirek: about the About dialog
18:56:34 astron: yup.
18:56:44 mirek: can I contact the original developer?
18:56:54 mirek: about what we could do with it?
18:56:55 astron: its really a bit late now
18:57:04 astron: but sure, why not
18:57:14 mirek: so we have settled on a solution, then?
18:57:18 astron: but we need the answer before tomorrow
18:57:28 astron: (or at least monday)
18:57:35 mirek: alright
18:57:48 mirek: what have we settled on up to now?
18:57:56 mirek: remove the graphic?
18:58:35 astron: currently, there is no background in there, but if i get to it, ill put the old one back in.
18:59:00 mirek: ok
18:59:28 astron: (without the gradient, though, because that wouldnt fit at all.)
18:59:43 mirek: alright
19:00:04 mirek: and, lastly, about "Progress"
19:00:17 mirek: I guess it's not shipping with 3.6?
19:00:37 mirek: also, since you don't like the gray version, could you at least suggest a colored version?
19:00:43 astron: it wouldnt be a problem if it were ready.
19:00:58 mirek: (I actually like the gray version)
19:00:59 astron: uhm, any colour would do for me, blue..?
19:01:24 astron: but the grey doesnt work (at least for me)
19:01:36 astron: purple?
19:01:54 astron: (although purple is not a good colour to signify progress)
19:02:02 astron: golden/yellow?
19:02:27 mirek: I mean, could you upload a version with that color
19:02:46 mirek: I'd be fine with any sort of color, though not every shade
19:04:00 astron: we want slide 2, right?
19:04:05 mirek: yes
19:08:54 astron: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/87946285/libreoffice/Screenshot%20from%202012-07-14%2021%3A08%3A33.png
19:09:00 astron: how do you feel about this?
19:09:44 mirek: it's alright
19:10:00 astron: (i just noticed though, that the masterpage of this template feels a little ugly, also note that the text in the header is custom
19:10:01 astron: )
19:10:56 mirek: can that be fixed?
19:12:18 mirek: if so, I wouldn't object to it being included
19:12:26 mirek: although blue does feel a bit overused
19:12:36 mirek: in the current template selection
19:12:40 mirek: but it's ok
19:12:51 astron: recreating this template isn't actually hard. what cant be fixed though is the fact that the area for the header is actually too short to hold our
                 "click to edit text" line
19:13:15 astron: what do you think would be better than blue?
19:14:04 mirek: any of the colors you listed
19:14:17 mirek: purple, golden, orange, red
19:14:33 mirek: brown
19:15:12 mirek: any of these colors
19:15:18 mirek: or gray, of course
19:16:57 astron: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/87946285/libreoffice/Screenshot%20from%202012-07-14%2021%3A16%3A39.png
19:17:00 astron: a red version
19:18:30 astron: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/87946285/libreoffice/Screenshot%20from%202012-07-14%2021%3A17%3A53.png
19:18:32 astron: brown
19:18:37 manas: the footer text should also be in ivory to make to more readable
19:18:48 mirek: the brown feels nice
19:19:03 mirek: I agree that the footer text should be light
19:19:03 manas: my pervious comment was for "red"
19:19:22 astron: i like it best too, but i guess people will hate me for doing brown templates
19:19:46 mirek: orange, then?
19:19:47 astron: and yes, ill adapt the text a the bottom
19:19:58 astron: no, orange us frgly
19:20:01 mirek: the red feels a too aggressive
19:20:11 mirek: I vote for the brown
19:20:20 astron: me too, i guess.
19:20:31 manas: do we have a limit? why not add all...
19:20:57 astron: i dont think adding ten templates that look essentially the same would be a good idea.
19:21:06 mirek: I agree
19:21:19 manas: yes
19:21:23 astron: okay, is that it for today?
19:21:23 mirek: we want each template to be unique in its own right
19:21:32 mirek: I think so
19:21:48 astron: great, then ill go out and hunt for sth to eat...
19:21:53 mirek: I assume you'll push Progress, right?
19:21:57 mirek: and put up the log?
19:22:01 astron: yes.
19:22:02 manas: bye guys, have a nice weekend
19:22:11 astron: thanks, you too. 
19:22:14 astron: bye.
19:22:22 mirek: bye