Design/Meetings/2012-07-21

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Attendees

Tasks

Everyone

alexanderW

  • Contact Daniel Foré about elementary's "Tools" icon after we know what to license it.
  • Talk with Astron about who will take ESC calls in the next few weeks.

Astron

  • Look if there are Gnome icon authors on the Gnome IRC.

Mirek2

  • Work on gradient proposal for the color handling whiteboard.
  • Ask Michael about licensing all artwork under cc-by from now on.
  • Start a color scheme whiteboard and thread.
  • Contact Lapo about the new Template dialog icons.

Log

[17:58] <alexanderW> Hi
[18:03] <@mirek2> hello
[18:03] <@mirek2> astron's notcoming
[18:04] <alexanderW> ah ok
[18:04] <alexanderW> The icons are in
[18:04] <@mirek2> right
[18:04] <@mirek2> happy about that
[18:04] <@mirek2> also, it seems like I won't be here for a couple of weeks
[18:05] <alexanderW> alright
[18:05] <alexanderW> I think I'll have internet most of the time
[18:05] <@mirek2> it'd be great if you could ask astron about the ESC calls
[18:05] <alexanderW> ok
[18:05] <@mirek2> and if one of you took care of these meetings
[18:05] <alexanderW> yes
[18:05] <@mirek2> on the other hand, I'm not even sure these meetings are necessary right now
[18:05] <@mirek2> there's not much going on
[18:06] <alexanderW> Not much tto discuss, maybe on what we want to focus for the next release
[18:06] <@mirek2> so... anything we should discuss?
[18:06] <@mirek2> well, that depends on the developers
[18:06] <@mirek2> but we should make some whiteboards for them
[18:07] <@mirek2> on that note, I haven't made any progress with the Options dialog yet
[18:07] <@mirek2> I hope to get around to it sometime
[18:07] <alexanderW> ah, doesn't matter too much, I guess
[18:07] <alexanderW> http://ubuntuone.com/0EAkIYmqoUWv4iNXkShZBb
[18:07] <alexanderW> I changed some settings for the diagram defaults
[18:08] <alexanderW> IMHO they look better that way, what do you think?
[18:08] <@mirek2> honestly, I don't recall what the old ones look like
[18:09] <alexanderW> the right one uses the default colors, has these blurred edges and is non-perspective
[18:09] <alexanderW> and the lightning isn't that great
[18:10] <@mirek2> so the one on the left is your proposal, the one on the right the current?
[18:10] <alexanderW> yes
[18:11] <alexanderW> It would be great if could work with a dev who could also improve the anti-aliasing
[18:11] <@mirek2> honestly, I don't think using different shades of a single color is a good thing for graphs
[18:12] <@mirek2> hm... LibreOffice keeps crashing, don't know why
[18:12] <alexanderW> Well, we could also use some other hues, but the current defaults look rather dated
[18:12] <alexanderW> th RC?
[18:13] <@mirek2> no, a stable version, but I think it's actually Ubuntu's fault
[18:13] <@mirek2> no matter
[18:14] <alexanderW> The whole color management matters in this regard
[18:14] <@mirek2> so you'd like to change the color palette?
[18:14] <@mirek2> I agree -- that whiteboard should be finished up
[18:14] <alexanderW> That would be an easy 'fix'
[18:15] <@mirek2> the diagram colors should use the default color scheme
[18:16] <@mirek2> so... should we have a separate whiteboard for a color scheme?
[18:16] <@mirek2> are there any characteristics we'd like the colors to have?
[18:16] <alexanderW> I'm not sure if we couldn't put it into color management
[18:16] <@mirek2> I suppose they shouldn't clash with Tango
[18:16] <alexanderW> Olivier Hallot suggested to use something like this: http://colorschemedesigner.com/
[18:17] <alexanderW> for tables/diagrams etc
[18:17] <@mirek2> I think we should first stick to our current feature range
[18:17] <@mirek2> a color scheme designer is a feature in itself, and not really an easyhack at that
[18:18] <@mirek2> we should, of course, leave room for a color scheme designer
[18:18] <alexanderW> true, it'd be great if that could later be added to the management
[18:19] <@mirek2> in any case, the current color management whiteboard is about changing the color management UI
[18:19] <@mirek2> picking the color scheme is another matter and deserves its own whiteboard
[18:19] <@mirek2> creating a color scheme designer is yet another matter, and also deserves its whiteboard
[18:19] <alexanderW> Yes
[18:20] <@mirek2> we could set the former up now, since it's likely to be implemented once we have a design
[18:20] <@mirek2> the latter I'm not so sure about
[18:21] <@mirek2> since it's hard to find developers interested in design-related stuff
[18:21] <alexanderW> Could you start a thread on the list?
[18:21] <@mirek2> and since it's useless before we have a better color management UI
[18:21] <alexanderW> sure
[18:21] <@mirek2> about the color scheme? sure
[18:21] <alexanderW> Did you already work on the icons for Rafael?
[18:22] <@mirek2> hm, not yet
[18:22] <@mirek2> sorry
[18:22] <@mirek2> I'm quite busy
[18:22] <alexanderW> should we discuss them a bit and work at the same time?
[18:22] <@mirek2> alright
[18:23] <@mirek2> also here are previous color scheme drafts for OO.o http://www.openoffice.org/ui/VisualDesign/OOoChart_colors_drafts.html
[18:23] <alexanderW> Create template, import template,
[18:23] <alexanderW> search, move up, move to folder, file properties, edit, remove, menu.
[18:24] <alexanderW> also for the action menu (the one with the
[18:24] <alexanderW> three dots), the icon for the selection mode button and an icon for the
[18:24] <alexanderW> online repository button in the toolbar
[18:24] <@mirek2> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Tango_Icons
[18:24] <@mirek2> the other ones are commented out
[18:24] <@mirek2> so... create template: template icon and a plus symbol?
[18:25] <alexanderW> yes
[18:25] <alexanderW> within the document?
[18:25] <alexanderW> or lower right
[18:26] <@mirek2> lower right
[18:26] <alexanderW> colored?
[18:26] <@mirek2> I'd prefer a gray one
[18:27] <alexanderW> I think a bit of color would be good
[18:27] <@mirek2> alternatively, we could stick with the current "create document" symbolism, which just shows the document icon without anything to indicate "create", but I don't think that'd be good
[18:27] <alexanderW> we can make both designs and decide later
[18:27] <@mirek2> sure
[18:27] <@mirek2> do you have the template icon you designed with astron?
[18:28] <@mirek2> I know he sent it to me, but I can't find it right now
[18:28] <alexanderW> I'm looking for it
[18:29] <alexanderW> hm
[18:30] <@mirek2> got it
[18:30] <@mirek2> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/87946285/libreoffice/presconf.zip
[18:30] <alexanderW> cool, thanks
[18:32] <alexanderW> for import, we could use this icon plus an arrow like this one: http://elementaryos.org/sites/default/files/user/5/document-export-128.png
[18:32] <@mirek2> honestly, that arrow looks more like "share" to me
[18:33] <alexanderW> the g+ share
[18:33] <alexanderW> hm, maybe turn it then?
[18:33] <@mirek2> maybe use a straight arrow?
[18:33] <@mirek2> with a rectangular end?
[18:34] <alexanderW> maybe, but I'd prefer something 'dynamic'
[18:35] <@mirek2> but import/export isn't a dynamic action in itself
[18:35] <@mirek2> unlike share or redo
[18:36] <@mirek2> in plain language, import/export just means movement
[18:36] <@mirek2> without change
[18:36] <alexanderW> yes
[18:37] <@mirek2> two designs here as well, I guess :)
[18:37] <alexanderW> ok :)
[18:38] <alexanderW> for search we can use the gnome icon
[18:38] <@mirek2> yes
[18:38] <@mirek2> on second thought, a colored plus icon would probably fit more with the Tango spirit
[18:39] <alexanderW> that's what I thought
[18:39] <alexanderW> ah, we need to use the tango palette
[18:39] <@mirek2> yes
[18:39] <@mirek2> :) I realized what you meant by looking at your "download template" icon
[18:40] <@mirek2> I originally imagined something more like Android's create icons, where the plus icon and the document symbol don't overlap
[18:41] <@mirek2> "move up" -- does this have a Gnome icon?
[18:41] <alexanderW> the document would be quite small in that case
[18:41] <alexanderW> yes
[18:41] <alexanderW> at least an arrow I think
[18:41] <@mirek2> I was imagining the plus icon to be small, like 3x3 px
[18:42] <alexanderW> same here
[18:42] <alexanderW> how big may these be?
[18:43] <@mirek2> the icons? they'll be standard 22x22 icons
[18:43] <alexanderW> ok
[18:43] <@mirek2> about the plus icon -- I was talking about the non-overlapping version
[18:43] <@mirek2> and, realistically, it'd have to be more like 5x5
[18:44] <@mirek2> anyway, about "move up"
[18:44] <@mirek2> it's an action that moves selected templates up in hierarchy
[18:44] <@mirek2> to the "home" folder
[18:44] <@mirek2> what icon should we use for that?
[18:45] <@mirek2> a template with an icon moving up?
[18:45] == astron [59cc8a7d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.204.138.125] has joined #libreoffice-design
[18:45] <@mirek2> hey astron
[18:45] <alexanderW> Hi astron
[18:45] <@mirek2> glad you could make it
[18:45] <astron> hi
[18:45] <astron> well [i am] on my phone only
[18:45] <alexanderW> we're discussing the template picker icons
[18:46] <@mirek2> the "move up" icon right now, specifically
[18:46] <@mirek2> it's an action that moves selected templates up in hierarchy
[18:46] <@mirek2> what would be a good metaphor for that?
[18:46] <@mirek2> a template with an icon pointing up?
[18:47] <@mirek2> I mean, with an arrow above it pointing up
[18:48] <@mirek2> thoughts?
[18:48] <astron> right
[18:48] <astron> in the file picker i used just up arrows
[18:49] <alexanderW> i think that'd be enough
[18:49] <@mirek2> it isn't a navigation icon, though
[18:49] <@mirek2> but I guess it wouldn't be understood as such in the context
[18:49] <@mirek2> ok, it's settled then
[18:50] <astron> ah youre right: different function, different icon
[18:50] <@mirek2> though it should be visually distinctive from the regular navigation arrows
[18:50] <@mirek2> so... ?
[18:51] <@mirek2> perhaps we ought to rename the button?
[18:51] <alexanderW> rename?
[18:51] <@mirek2> "Move home"?
[18:51] <@mirek2> "Remove from folder"?
[18:52] <@mirek2> "Move out of folder"?
[18:52] <alexanderW> Will the text be displayed?
[18:53] <@mirek2> most likely
[18:53] <@mirek2> though we shouldn't count on it
[18:53] <alexanderW> If that's the case we can probably use the gnome icon I think
[18:54] == astron [59cc8a7d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.204.138.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
[18:54] <@mirek2> the navigational icon should be distinctive from the "move up" icon
[18:54] <@mirek2> every icon should have just one function
[18:54] <@mirek2> and since Gnome has no "move out of folder" icon, we would need to redesign this one anyway
[18:55] <alexanderW> okay
[18:55] <alexanderW> so maybe a folder plus the arrow?
[18:55] <@mirek2> arrow pointing where?
[18:56] <alexanderW> up
[18:56] <@mirek2> perhaps an upside down folder with the arrow pointing down?
[18:56] <@mirek2> just seems more natural for "move out of folder"
[18:56] <@mirek2> as if you're physically emptying it out of the folder
[18:56] == astron1 [59cc8a7d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.204.138.125] has joined #libreoffice-design
[18:57] <@mirek2> hello again
[18:57] <alexanderW> I'd go with the folder not being turned
[18:57] <alexanderW> Hi
[18:57] <@mirek2> we could make the icon and then simply flip it to compare
[18:57] <alexanderW> okay
[18:58] <@mirek2> move to folder
[18:59] <@mirek2> (just to clarify, this could be from a folder to another folder)
[18:59] <@mirek2> does Gnome have a "Move" icon?
[18:59] <alexanderW> two folders with an arrow?
[18:59] <@mirek2> I suppose
[19:00] <@mirek2> might look strange as an icon, though
[19:00] <astron1> in the somewhat likely case that im kicked out [again] i will consider it final...
[19:00] <@mirek2> perhaps just an arrow pointing to a folder?
[19:00] <alexanderW> that will probably do
[19:00] <@mirek2> ok
[19:00] <@mirek2> file properties
[19:01] <@mirek2> does Gnome have an icon for this?
[19:01] <astron1> yep
[19:01] <@mirek2> great
[19:01] <@mirek2> let's use that
[19:01] <alexanderW> good
[19:01] <@mirek2> "edit"
[19:01] <astron1> doc+tool as overlay
[19:01] <@mirek2> what kind of tool
[19:01] <@mirek2> a pencil?
[19:02] <alexanderW> yes
[19:02] <@mirek2> I believe that's what we had in LibO
[19:02] <alexanderW> maybe the gedit icon?
[19:02] <@mirek2> for edit mode
[19:02] <@mirek2> we should avoid taking pieces of others' branding
[19:02] <astron1> that was for properties
[19:02] <astron1> right.
[19:02] <@mirek2> I think Gnome has a generic icon with a pencil
[19:03] <astron1> there are some icons with pencils in the gnome theme
[19:03] <astron1> though
[19:03] <@mirek2> great -- we can use that
[19:04] <@mirek2> we should probably contact Lamo if he'd like a say in this
[19:04] <astron1> and gedits real logo is just the wordmark i believe
[19:04] <alexanderW> are those already in LibO now, or only the ones we needed for 3.6?
[19:04] <@mirek2> after all, he is more experienced with designing Gnome icons and he did offer to help
[19:05] <@mirek2> alexanderW: which ones do you mean?
[19:06] <astron1> ive been rather conservative in replacing icons, so: no
[19:06] <@mirek2> embarassing typo: I meant "Lapo"
[19:06] <alexanderW> has the entire icon set be imported?
[19:07] <@mirek2> should I send Lapo an e-mail?
[19:07] <@mirek2> asking him for advice?
[19:07] <astron1> and its also still under cc-by-sa
[19:07] <@mirek2> showing him the metaphors we came up with
[19:08] <astron1> no
[19:08] <astron1> seems good
[19:09] <@mirek2> so exclude Lapo from the equation then?
[19:10] <astron1> why
[19:10] <@mirek2> I'm confused: was the "no" you sent an answer to "should I send Lapo an e-mail?"
[19:11] <astron1>  [that was a] no, to "did we import everything?"
[19:11] <@mirek2> oh, ok
[19:12] <@mirek2> I'll send the e-mail then
[19:12] <@mirek2> moving on: remove icon
[19:12] <astron1> i mean the licensing question is still open and jakub doesnt like the relicensing idea but...
[19:12] <@mirek2> It removes the selected template from the template dialog but doesn't delete it.
[19:13] <@mirek2> astron1: Is Creative Commons a problem for us if we credit the authors?
[19:13] <astron1> [a remove icon] is available from gnome and old tango
[19:13] <alexanderW> Now we're using it under CC-BY... , right?
[19:13] <@mirek2> yes
[19:14] <@mirek2> in what ways is cc-by a problem?
[19:14] <astron1> mirek2: ianal. but mm doesnt like it i think. its hard to track
[19:14] <@mirek2> ok
[19:15] <astron1> it would be simpler to just have mpl
[19:15] <@mirek2> yes, I understand
[19:15] <astron1> in text files you can add license headers ...
[19:15] <astron1> not so much here
[19:16] <alexanderW> ah
[19:16] <@mirek2> there's typically an "Authors" file in the same folder as the icons
[19:16] <alexanderW> svgs can't be used?
[19:16] <@mirek2> and a license file as well
[19:16] <alexanderW> Well, the icons are spread across many folders I think
[19:17] <astron1> well not currently svgs
[19:17] <@mirek2> isn't there a main folder that houses all the icons?
[19:18] <astron1> it already contains icons with different licenses
[19:18] <astron1> afaik
[19:19] <@mirek2> oh, that's right
[19:19] <@mirek2> I was thinking the other icons could be relicensed CC-by
[19:19] <@mirek2> but I forgot that LibreOffice isn't the owner
[19:20] <@mirek2> hmph... that makes things complicated
[19:20] <@mirek2> I don't know if Jakub will stand down and agree to dual-license his icons
[19:21] <astron1> i was told not to worry about the old icons
[19:21] <@mirek2> perhaps it might just be easier to make all our artwork creative commons
[19:22] <astron1> anyway, its not just jakub its rather the less frequent contributors that make it hard
[19:22] <astron1> we still have answer only from l,j and hylke
[19:22] <@mirek2> so do you think making all libreoffice artwork use cc-by would be plausible?
[19:23] <@mirek2> after all, it is a more appropriate license for artwork
[19:23] <astron1> no
[19:23] <@mirek2> and it allows differently-licensed open-source software to share icons
[19:23] <@mirek2> why not?
[19:23] <astron1> [that just meant] that we shouldnt waste time trying to get their licenses right
[19:24] <@mirek2> we'll waste time with licensing no matter what path we take
[19:24] <astron1> sure.
[19:25] <@mirek2> given that the majority of the icon developers haven't responded yet, it seems unlikely that they will all respond anytime soon
[19:25] <@mirek2> plus Jakub seems unyielding
[19:25] <astron1> but a new theme would be a chance to get it right from the start should we ever do one
[19:26] <alexanderW> a completely new icon theme?
[19:26] <@mirek2> a new theme would be a massive undertaking
[19:26] <astron1> we can try on gnome irc... thats more immediate than email
[19:26] <astron1> massive? yes.
[19:27] <@mirek2> would you like to try the gnome irc?
[19:27] <astron1> but for the android viewer we need at least some flat icons
[19:27] <astron1> [mirek2:] ill see
[19:27] <alexanderW> If that's kind of a show-stopper we could ask creators of other icon themes
[19:27] <@mirek2> yes, that's what I was thinking -- start with the Android port
[19:27] <@mirek2> but that's going to take years
[19:28] <alexanderW> @ mirek: what?
[19:28] <@mirek2> a new icon theme
[19:28] <@mirek2> and we're still going to need a Tango theme
[19:28] <alexanderW> not a new one, one that already exists
[19:28] <@mirek2> for Gnome users like me who like to have all apps use the same icon theme
[19:28] <astron1> yes but we have the chance to do android gradually
[19:28] <@mirek2> alexanderW: what do you mean?
[19:29] <astron1> gnome is more and more using flat icons...
[19:30] <alexanderW> If it's better in the long run to use another license (cc0?), we could approach teams that lready created an entire icon theme for gnome
[19:30] <@mirek2> astron1: yes; but, as I was saying, it will take years before we can use it on the desktop; even now, not all of our icons are consistent
[19:30] <astron1> so, yes concentrate on tango now
[19:31] <@mirek2> astron1: yes, but only in manager apps; editors still use those large colorful icons
[19:31] <@mirek2> plus xfce and lxde still use Tango icons
[19:32] <astron1> likely because gnome 3 doesnt provision for editors
[19:32] <@mirek2> which I think is too bad -- the Gnome editing applications could use some design love
[19:33] <@mirek2> so, how to solve the CC problem?
[19:33] <astron1> ...
[19:34] <@mirek2> the advantage of using CC for our own icons would be that they could be reused by Abiword/Gnumeric/Ease/other Tango apps licensed differently
[19:34] <astron1> oh right
[19:35] <alexanderW> cc what?
[19:35] <@mirek2> cc-by
[19:35] <astron1> mpl would exclude aoo though... no one else
[19:36] <@mirek2> astron1: I don't think we need to exclude AOO
[19:36] <@mirek2> that's just being unfriendly
[19:37] <@mirek2> it's just that most icon packs tend to be creative commons
[19:37] <astron1> [mpl/excluding aoo] would be convenient and the rest of the project does it
[19:37] <alexanderW> So do we want to stay with the Gnome icon set in the long term?
[19:38] <astron1> also talk to mm about licensing
[19:38] <@mirek2> alexanderW: "in the long term" -- that's a bit complicated, especially when now there's an intense battle of platforms going on
[19:38] <@mirek2> who knows where computers will be a few years from now
[19:38] <astron1> he knows better than either of us
[19:39] <@mirek2> michael? yes, I suppose so
[19:40] <@mirek2> in any case, I would say Tango is the best path for us right now
[19:40] <astron1> certainly
[19:40] <alexanderW> yes
[19:40] <@mirek2> there are tons of these icon sets around, it fits well in Gnome, LXDE, XFCE, and elementary's DE
[19:41] <@mirek2> in any case, we should probably get back to discussing the dialog icon metaphors
[19:41] <alexanderW> probably
[19:41] <astron1> plus mac and win more or less
[19:42] <@mirek2> well, Windows has very different icon styles in XP, Vista/7, and 8
[19:42] <@mirek2> cartoonish -> detailed -> flat and simple
[19:43] <@mirek2> anyway, astron, you said gnome already has a "remove" icon
[19:43] <@mirek2> what about a "Tools" icon?
[19:43] <@mirek2> (this would launch a menu listing miscellaneous actions)
[19:43] <@mirek2> like the tools menu in Chrome or action overflow on Android
[19:44] <@mirek2> I know Gnome uses a gear icon, but I've only seen a flat version of it
[19:44] <alexanderW> or a gear
[19:44] <@mirek2> do you know if Gnome has a Tango version of the gear icon?
[19:44] <alexanderW> one sec
[19:45] <alexanderW> hm
[19:45] == astron1 [59cc8a7d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.204.138.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
[19:46] <alexanderW> web doesn't use it
[19:46] <@mirek2> the new applications use a flat icon
[19:47] <alexanderW> we could ask dan rabbit from elementary, they use a tango version
[19:47] <@mirek2> I was thinking the same thing
[19:47] <@mirek2> it's licensed under GPL, but I'm sure he could relicense the one icon for use
[19:47] <@mirek2> us, I mean
[19:47] <alexanderW> Should I ask?
[19:48] <@mirek2> maybe after we know what to relicense it
[19:48] <@mirek2> so after I ask Michael to relicense
[19:48] <alexanderW> alright
[19:48] <@mirek2> after I ask Michael whether to license it under CC-by or MPL
[19:49] <@mirek2> lastly, the selection mode icon
[19:49] <alexanderW> a tick box
[19:49] <@mirek2> or we could use Gnome's icon
[19:49] <@mirek2> though I have to admit -- Gnome's icon isn't very clear about what it does
[19:49] <alexanderW> what fo they use?
[19:50] <@mirek2> you know that the selection mode is a Gnome idea to begin with, right?
[19:51] <@mirek2> http://afaikblog.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/documents.png
[19:51] <@mirek2> would make more sense if they used a box instead of a circle
[19:52] <alexanderW> indeed
[19:53] <alexanderW> colored or not?
[19:53] <@mirek2> not colored
[19:53] <@mirek2> we should also keep the same position as the Gnome dialog
[19:55] <@mirek2> anyway, that's the whole list of icons for now
[19:56] <alexanderW> anything else?
[19:57] <@mirek2> there's the matter of who will design what
[19:57] <@mirek2> I'll be gone for a while and, frankly, I always prefer to pass on graphic design stuff since that's not really an area where I excel
[19:58] <alexanderW> we can all make suggestions and then decide for each who makes the final desigfn
[19:58] <@mirek2> sure
[19:58] <@mirek2> but I probably won't be doing that anytime soon
[19:59] <alexanderW> ok
[19:59] <@mirek2> hope that it's not an issue
[19:59] <alexanderW> It's not
[19:59] <@mirek2> good :)
[20:00] <@mirek2> I think that's all
[20:00] <@mirek2> oh -- what about the color management whiteboard?
[20:00] <@mirek2> should we continue the process?
[20:01] <alexanderW> Yes, it'd be great if we could be done with this for the next release
[20:01] <@mirek2> ok, I'll try to work on the gradients a bit before I leave
[20:02] <alexanderW> alright
[20:02] <alexanderW> Should I put up the IRC log
[20:02] <@mirek2> I can put it up
[20:02] <@mirek2> I guess we're done then
[20:03] <alexanderW> yes
[20:03] <alexanderW> good evening
[20:03] <@mirek2> enjoy your evening
[20:03] <alexanderW> bye