Design/Meetings/2012-08-11

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Attendees

Topics

  • Options dialog
  • Font embedding

Log

[18:01] <@mirek2> hi
[18:01] <alexanderW> hi
[18:01] <@mirek2> how have you been?
[18:01] <alexanderW> Good, enjoying the sun
[18:02] <alexanderW> And you?
[18:02] <alexanderW> And I started translating some German comments in /starmath and /filter :)
[18:02] <@mirek2> pretty good
[18:02] <@mirek2> good, happy to hear that :)
[18:04] <@mirek2> I suppose astron handled this week's irc chat?
[18:04] <@mirek2> not irc chat, esc call, sorry
[18:04] <alexanderW> yes
[18:05] <@mirek2> ok
[18:05] <alexanderW> did you read the minutes of ESC call?
[18:05] <@mirek2> not yet
[18:05] <@mirek2> I feel it's always better to get briefed by someone who attended the call
[18:05] <@mirek2> it's more informative
[18:06] <alexanderW> an overview of the UI stuff: * UI / design update (Astron)
[18:06] <alexanderW>         + discussion about updated icons for gallery
[18:06] <alexanderW>         + ongoing options discussion
[18:06] <alexanderW>         + official git repo for artwork ?
[18:06] <alexanderW>                 + should we re-use the old repository ? (no)
[18:06] <alexanderW>         + ongoing discussion around artwork licensing
[18:06] <alexanderW>         + new 'templates' repository created
[18:06] <alexanderW>                 + can we push templates there ?
[18:06] <alexanderW>                 + 70 new templates up-loaded to the wiki page
[18:06] <alexanderW>                   https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Call_for_Templates
[18:06] <alexanderW>                 + need CC0 / authenticity statements & push those to git.
[18:06] <alexanderW>         + intends to package Astron & Alexander's templates first (Bjoern)
[18:06] <alexanderW>                 + and do a package release
[18:06] <alexanderW>                 + packagers who want sexy new templates take note ...
[18:06] <alexanderW>                 + need some macro sanity checking
[18:06] <alexanderW>         + Astron / Alexander to provide editorial feedback & improvement
[18:06] <alexanderW>           encouragement
[18:06] <alexanderW>         + Toolbar fixing status - on Kendy's todo.
[18:06] <alexanderW>         + Bjoern created some Design easy-hacks
[18:06] <alexanderW>                 + https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/Easy_Hacks_by_required_Skill#Easy_Hacks_requiring_Design_Skills
[18:07] <@mirek2> yes, I was looking at it
[18:07] <@mirek2> shocked about the new templates on https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Call_for_Templates
[18:08] <alexanderW> Smae here
[18:08] <@mirek2> some are just bizarre
[18:08] <alexanderW> *note
[18:08] <alexanderW> *quality
[18:09] <alexanderW> on Webupd8 there was someone wishing for such a contest and he was surprised that we ran one
[18:09] <@mirek2> I could understand the use case for "whiteboard", but white sphere or outer space?
[18:10] <@mirek2> well, I'm surprised this was written on the esc minutes: "need CC0 / authenticity statements & push those to git."
[18:10] <@mirek2> I don't think we want to use any one of the new ones
[18:11] <@mirek2> "Astron / Alexander to provide editorial feedback & improvement encouragement" -- does that mean you'll be reviewing new templates as they come?
[18:11] <alexanderW> Apparently
[18:11] <alexanderW> Or us three
[18:12] <@mirek2> :) thanks for the invite
[18:12] <alexanderW> :)
[18:13] <@mirek2> have you been clued in on this before the call?
[18:13] <alexanderW> no
[18:13] <@mirek2> oh, ok
[18:14] <@mirek2> because i'm not sure what this would really change
[18:14] <alexanderW> a bit unrelated, but to you want to plan to attend the next UDS?
[18:15] <@mirek2> Ubuntu Developer Summit?
[18:15] <alexanderW> yes
[18:15] <@mirek2> no -- is there a reason why I should attend?
[18:15] <alexanderW> ah, there was a mail by Matthew paul Thomas
[18:16] <@mirek2> oh, was that the typography thing?
[18:16] <alexanderW> yes, the proposed session didn't take place
[18:16] <alexanderW> so this is the alternative
[18:16] <alexanderW> Hello Bjoern
[18:16] <alexanderW> Thanks for your interest in the typography workshop.
[18:16] <alexanderW> Unfortunately we have had to cancel the workshop because of a lack of
[18:16] <alexanderW> interest from other upstream projects.
[18:16] <alexanderW> We will send you a copy of the draft typography guidelines once they
[18:16] <alexanderW> are ready.
[18:17] <alexanderW> We will also run a UI typography session at the Ubuntu Developer
[18:17] <alexanderW> Summit in Copenhagen in late October. Perhaps a LibreOffice UI
[18:17] <alexanderW> developer or two will be attending UDS?
[18:17] <alexanderW> Bjoern Michaelsen wrote on 23/07/12 12:26:
[18:17] <alexanderW> > ... - As most of our designers are volunteers: is there a
[18:17] <alexanderW> > possiblity for (partial) funding?
[18:17] <alexanderW> Canonical offers sponsorship to Ubuntu Developer Summits.
[18:17] <alexanderW> <http://www.jonobacon.org/2012/08/01/ubuntu-developer-summit-sponsorship-now-open-4/>
[18:17] <alexanderW> > - What topics do you want to discuss? - Playing into this: How
[18:17] <alexanderW> > technical will things get? With fonts on productivity suites, one
[18:17] <alexanderW> > major concern is interop with MS Office -- for example default
[18:17] <alexanderW> > fonts that have different font metrics than those available from MS
[18:17] <alexanderW> > Office are a bit tricky.
[18:17] <alexanderW> >
[18:17] <alexanderW> > ...
[18:17] <alexanderW> The guidelines are mainly concerned with typography in the UI itself,
[18:17] <alexanderW> rather than inside documents. Where to use different font sizes,
[18:17] <alexanderW> headings, bold, small print, spacing and layout, error messages, links
[18:17] <alexanderW> from one part of the UI to another, hints, captions, and so on.
[18:17] <alexanderW> Cheers
[18:17] <alexanderW> - --
[18:17] <alexanderW> mpt
[18:18] <@mirek2> oh, ok
[18:18] <@mirek2> didn't get that last update
[18:18] <@mirek2> hm... I'm probably not going to go
[18:19] <alexanderW> I don't know yet whether I will have time, since I'm moving to a university and don't have any timetables yet
[18:19] <@mirek2> what are you majoring in?
[18:19] <alexanderW> mechatronics
[18:20] <alexanderW> are you going to uni, too?
[18:20] <@mirek2>  yes, though I'm still not sure what to major in
[18:20] <alexanderW> ah
[18:21] <@mirek2> majoring in math for now, but I plan to leave that as soon as I find something more appropriate
[18:21] <@mirek2> mechatronics seems interesting
[18:21] <@mirek2> never heard of it until now
[18:21] <alexanderW> a mix of mechanics, IT and electronic engineering
[18:22] <alexanderW> So I can still learn a bit of programming :)
[18:22] <@mirek2> :) good for you
[18:22] <alexanderW> Should we wait for Stefan?
[18:22] <@mirek2> what career would you like to go into?
[18:22] <@mirek2> no, I think we should probably begin :)
[18:23] <alexanderW> Not sure yet, maybe automatisation in the industry or prosthetics
[18:23] <@mirek2> so... https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Analyses/Global_Options
[18:23] <alexanderW> quite a gap
[18:23] <@mirek2> ok
[18:23] <@mirek2> interesting
[18:23] <alexanderW> Where did we stop?
[18:24] <@mirek2> let's go to "other user data" first
[18:24] <@mirek2> after some thought, I think we should label it "Generic"
[18:24] <@mirek2> which is what I feel you and Astron argued for as well
[18:24] <@mirek2> agree?
[18:24] <alexanderW> Yes
[18:25] <alexanderW> So how would we display these textboxes?
[18:25] <alexanderW> The way we do now?
[18:25] <@mirek2> that's for later -- once we have a whiteboard
[18:25] <alexanderW> Maybe we could add a note like: Generic (hidden)
[18:25] <alexanderW> alright
[18:26] <@mirek2> view
[18:26] <@mirek2> scaling
[18:26] <alexanderW> advanced?
[18:26] <@mirek2> given that there are people using this feature, then Advanced, I suppose
[18:27] <alexanderW> Should I edit?
[18:27] <@mirek2> if you'd like
[18:27] <@mirek2> or I can
[18:27] <@mirek2> go ahead
[18:27] <@mirek2> Icon size and style
[18:28] <@mirek2> I think this should be split up into "icon size" and "icon style"
[18:28] <alexanderW> Probably
[18:29] <alexanderW> Could we detect whether high contrast is enabled on linux?
[18:29] <alexanderW> and maybe do the icon choice automatically
[18:29] <@mirek2> I know that the HC theme is used whenever a dark theme is used on linux
[18:30] <alexanderW> so there is some functionality like this
[18:30] <alexanderW> even if it's apparently broken
[18:30] <@mirek2> really?
[18:30] <@mirek2> how do you figure?
[18:30] <alexanderW> well, if it automatically changes the icons
[18:31] <@mirek2> what do you mean? isn't that a good thing?
[18:32] <alexanderW> Yes, but why would one want the HC icons only because one's using a dark theme?
[18:32] <@mirek2> the normal icons aren't visible enough, I guess
[18:32] <@mirek2> I'm not really sure how it's implemented, though
[18:33] <@mirek2> in any case, I guess I would label both icon size and icon theme as advanced
[18:34] <alexanderW> wow, me edits are a massacre
[18:34] <@mirek2> what do you mean?
[18:35] <alexanderW> editing the wiki table
[18:35] <@mirek2> massacre?
[18:35] <alexanderW> ah, it was an supüerfluous blank
[18:36] <alexanderW> one table looked pretty messed up
[18:36] <@mirek2> oh, ok
[18:36] <alexanderW> Now I get it
[18:36] <@mirek2> anyway, what do you think about the icon set/theme?
[18:37] <alexanderW> I think theme shouldn't be advanced
[18:37] <@mirek2> really? I think theme is more advanced than size
[18:37] <alexanderW> size  should rather be an advanced option
[18:38] <alexanderW> Well, aren't the icons as big as on the rest of the desktop?
[18:38] <@mirek2> I think in generic options, we want only the options the user seriously needs to use the software
[18:39] <alexanderW> then probably both advanced
[18:39] <@mirek2> well, Windows and Mac users are used to both big and small icons
[18:39] <@mirek2> but yes, I agree with having both advanced
[18:40] <@mirek2> (btw, you don't have to save as we go -- you can just edit the wiki and save when we're done)
[18:40] <@mirek2> "Use system font for user interface"
[18:41] <alexanderW> I tried to understand the syntax and the preview doesn't work
[18:41] <alexanderW> now I should be abe to edit it correctly
[18:41] <@mirek2> ok
[18:41] <alexanderW> I think that's advanced, too
[18:41] <@mirek2> I can't think of a scenario where this option would be useful
[18:42] <alexanderW> Who doesn't want consistency?
[18:42] <@mirek2> exactly
[18:42] <@mirek2> it's on https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Whiteboards/KillOptions
[18:42] <@mirek2> astron's made-up use-case: "LibreOffice uses a system font incompatible with the current locale. A Chinese American uses English OS in conjunction with Chinese Libreoffice and a non-CJK-supporting font. (Please note, this use case is completely made up and I haven't checked if this could actually help here.)"
[18:43] <alexanderW> Hm, but the OS distributors should ship with fonts that can be used in most languages
[18:43] <@mirek2> right
[18:44] == Manas [75f2bd8f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.117.242.189.143] has joined #libreoffice-design
[18:44] <@mirek2> I don't think it's a very plausible scenario
[18:44] <alexanderW> font antialiasing
[18:44] <alexanderW> Hi
[18:44] <@mirek2> hello
[18:44] <Manas> hi
[18:44] <alexanderW> IIRC it can cause slow-downs
[18:45] <alexanderW> ah, no it was the hardware acceleration
[18:45] <@mirek2> as astron mentions, "Currently, the replacement font can't be chosen which makes the option rather less useful."
[18:45] <alexanderW> enable it by default and make it advanced?
[18:45] <@mirek2> I think we should let go of the option
[18:45] <alexanderW> then it's a no-brainer
[18:45] <alexanderW> completely?
[18:45] <@mirek2> yes
[18:45] <@mirek2> afaik, no other software has this feature
[18:45] <@mirek2> and if there was a chinese american like in the above scenario
[18:46] <alexanderW> bad luck
[18:46] <@mirek2> I doubt he'd be content with no applications except libreoffice working for him, if the default font was really a problem
[18:47] <@mirek2> would you agree with "Unnecessary" then?
[18:47] <alexanderW> yes
[18:47] <alexanderW> font antialiasing
[18:48] <alexanderW> default to yes and make it advanced?
[18:48] <@mirek2> I suppose
[18:48] <@mirek2> again, I fail to see the use in this
[18:48] <alexanderW> in what?
[18:48] <@mirek2> in the option
[18:48] <@mirek2> I wonder whether if it wasn't previously used to adress an issue that's no longer present in Linux
[18:49] <alexanderW> disabling it could be useful on old PCs
[18:49] <alexanderW> what issue?
[18:49] <@mirek2> wouldn't there be an OS-wide setting then?
[18:50] <@mirek2> given that this is Linux-only, I'm thinking it's related to an antialiasing issue in Linux
[18:50] <@mirek2> otherwise, if it was there so it could be useful on old PCs, why wouldn't it be available for Windows?
[18:50] <@mirek2> at least
[18:50] <@mirek2> the majority of old PCs run windows
[18:51] <alexanderW> I didn't know it wasn't available on Windows
[18:51] <alexanderW> We should ask a dev whether there's still an issue
[18:51] <@mirek2> yes
[18:51] <alexanderW> if not, get rid of it
[18:51] <@mirek2> I agree
[18:51] <@mirek2> astron wrote "If it can't currently be taken from the OS, this would have to be implemented. I believe this this is already possible, though."
[18:51] <alexanderW> I'll jot this down
[18:51] <@mirek2> on https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Whiteboards/KillOptions
[18:51] <alexanderW> aha
[18:52] <alexanderW> icons in menus
[18:52] <@mirek2> I would get rid of this option
[18:53] <@mirek2> this should be based on the OS behavior
[18:53] <alexanderW> are there usually icons on windows?
[18:53] <@mirek2> no
[18:53] <@mirek2> not on Windows or Mac OS
[18:53] <alexanderW> okay
[18:53] <alexanderW> Show preview of fonts
[18:53] <@mirek2> Gnome and Ubuntu don't use those icons, but maybe KDE does? I'm not sure
[18:53] <alexanderW> I think we should keep that
[18:54] <@mirek2> I would get rid of it
[18:54] <@mirek2> astron wrote: "This option should be removed. In LibreOffice 3.4, the preview was made more intelligent, so it should always be used."
[18:54] <@mirek2> with which I fully agree
[18:55] <@mirek2> your thoughts?
[18:55] <alexanderW> Well, it looks cleaner if all fonts look the same
[18:55] <alexanderW> But it's not too useful I guess
[18:56] <@mirek2> yes
[18:56] <@mirek2> it's not
[18:56] <alexanderW> unneccesary
[18:56] <alexanderW> ?
[18:56] <@mirek2> yes
[18:57] <@mirek2> Show font history
[18:57] <alexanderW> useful
[18:57] <@mirek2> I echo Astron's sentiments
[18:57] <@mirek2> "This setting is useful and should always be enabled. I don't think storing used fonts poses any kind of privacy problem. The tick box should be removed."
[18:57] <alexanderW> alright
[18:58] <@mirek2> so Unnecessary, imho
[18:58] <alexanderW> yes
[18:58] <alexanderW> middle mouse button
[18:58] <@mirek2> Middle mouse button function
[18:58] <alexanderW> advanced?
[18:59] <@mirek2> yes, I think so
[18:59] <alexanderW> I don't know whether people actually use that
[18:59] <alexanderW> hardware acceleration
[18:59] <alexanderW> basically advanced, but it can cause issues
[19:00] <alexanderW> so rather make it easy to access?
[19:00] <@mirek2> astron wrote: "This option should always be enabled, unless there are problems with the video card. This might be a good option for an AOP."
[19:00] <alexanderW> AOP?
[19:00] <@mirek2> I wonder if it's still an issue
[19:01] <alexanderW> yes, I think I read a few comments for the 3.5 release
[19:01] <alexanderW> probably on ask.libreoffice.org
[19:01] <@mirek2> ok
[19:01] <alexanderW> so?
[19:02] <@mirek2> until the issues are solved or until we have a working hardware blacklist, then generic, I suppose
[19:02] <@mirek2> do we agree on generic, then?
[19:03] <alexanderW> yes
[19:03] <alexanderW> anti-aliasing
[19:03] <alexanderW> enabled by default and advanced?
[19:03] <@mirek2> yes
[19:04] <alexanderW> Selection
[19:04] <@mirek2> it's a ridiculous option
[19:04] <@mirek2> unnecessary
[19:04] <alexanderW> agree
[19:05] <alexanderW> Print
[19:05] <@mirek2> I wonder if the print options might not be better dealt with as contextual
[19:05] <@mirek2> or perhaps on a printer-by-printer basis
[19:06] <@mirek2> for example, the "Convert colors to grayscale" is useful when your printer's out of color ink
[19:06] <@mirek2> so "contextual" would be useful in that scenario
[19:06] <alexanderW> yes
[19:07] <alexanderW> What about Printer warnings?
[19:07] <alexanderW> Should they be contextual, too
[19:07] <alexanderW> ?
[19:07] <@mirek2> what printer warnings?
[19:07] <@mirek2> aren't those handled by the OS?
[19:08] <@mirek2> whoops, failed to scroll down
[19:08] <alexanderW> I doubt it
[19:08] <@mirek2> before a decision, though, I would read through https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Whiteboards/KillOptions
[19:08] <@mirek2> astron's take
[19:09] <alexanderW> so keep these under advanced
[19:09] <alexanderW> ?
[19:11] <@mirek2> print options I would make contextual (i.e. move to the Print dialog)
[19:11] <@mirek2> printer warnings I would make advanced
[19:11] <alexanderW> the warnings
[19:12] <@mirek2> I don't know why it would be useful to disable the "Paper size" warning, though
[19:13] <alexanderW> same for orientation
[19:14] <alexanderW> transparency: User wants to permanently work around the transparency bug of her printer (?) - Astron
[19:14] <@mirek2> I suppose
[19:15] <@mirek2> though, again, this kind of setting is more appropriate on a printer-by-printer basis
[19:16] <@mirek2> in any case, I guess these three are best handled as advanced settings
[19:17] <alexanderW> yes
[19:17] <alexanderW> Paths
[19:17] <alexanderW> My documents should eb generic
[19:17] <alexanderW> *be
[19:17] <@mirek2> really? I would say it should be advanced
[19:18] <@mirek2> but I suppose this setting could be a time saver for a lot of people, so let's make it generic
[19:18] <alexanderW> especially in business environments
[19:19] <@mirek2> yes, you're right
[19:19] <Manas> i also think my documents should be generic
[19:19] <alexanderW> Autocorrect -> Advanced?
[19:19] <@mirek2> yes
[19:20] <alexanderW> Same with AutoText?
[19:20] <@mirek2> yes
[19:20] <alexanderW> Gallery, too?
[19:20] <@mirek2> well, that depends on whether we want to get rid of gallery
[19:20] <alexanderW> might be needed in schools as someone pointed out on the ml
[19:20] <@mirek2> ok, let's make it advanced for now
[19:21] <@mirek2> graphics: advanced
[19:21] <alexanderW> yes
[19:21] <alexanderW> backups generic?
[19:21] <@mirek2> I would say advanced
[19:22] <@mirek2> the only way most people encounter backups is through the backup wizard, anyway
[19:22] <alexanderW> okay, makes sense
[19:22] <alexanderW> Templates
[19:22] <alexanderW> generic?
[19:23] <alexanderW> maybe we should as Rafael how this works right now
[19:23] <alexanderW> *ask
[19:23] <@mirek2> yes
[19:23] <alexanderW> yes to what?
[19:23] <@mirek2> let's skip the setting for now
[19:23] <@mirek2> to "ask rafael"
[19:23] <alexanderW> alright
[19:23] <@mirek2> Temporary files: advanced?
[19:24] <alexanderW> yes
[19:24] <@mirek2> colors
[19:24] <alexanderW> hm
[19:24] <alexanderW> atm it#s still required I guess
[19:25] <@mirek2> yes
[19:25] <@mirek2> it depends on https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Color_Handling , which I hope gets finished and implemented
[19:25] <@mirek2> but now, it's required and therefore should be generic
[19:25] <alexanderW> 'Keep until Color Handling implemented'
[19:25] <alexanderW> ?
[19:25] <@mirek2> let's label it as generic
[19:25] <@mirek2> and if color handling is implemented, we'll label it unnecessary
[19:26] <alexanderW> fonts
[19:26] <alexanderW> advanced?
[19:27] <alexanderW> afk brb
[19:28] <@mirek2> see https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Whiteboards/KillOptions#Fonts
[19:28] <Manas> how about the option to embed fonts instead of replacement fonts
[19:29] <@mirek2> that's being worked on, but wouldn't work in situations when the fonts in question are proprietary
[19:30] <@mirek2> which is usually the case, unfortunately
[19:30] <Manas> yes
[19:31] <alexanderW> that feature is 30.000 € away
[19:31] <@mirek2> what do you mean?
[19:32] <Manas> :)
[19:32] <Manas> its not libre
[19:32] <alexanderW> the alliance for ... will sponsor a good implementation of ooxml
[19:33] <alexanderW> but font embedding requires extra 30.000 €
[19:33] <@mirek2> could you post a link?
[19:33] <alexanderW> http://www.osb-alliance.com/index.php/de/home/5-lisog/622-authorities-publish-specification-for-better-support-of-ooxml-in-libreofficeopenofficeorg-new-qoffice-interoperabilityq-working-group-within-osb-alliance-to-coordinate-implementation
[19:33] <@mirek2> thanks
[19:35] <@mirek2> where did you get the 30.000 € figure?
[19:35] <alexanderW> Here's what I meant, but it's in German: http://www.osb-alliance.com/index.php/de/home/5-lisog/817-suse-und-lanedo-setzen-ooxml-verbesserungen-in-libreofficeopenofficeorg-fuer-behoerden-um
[19:35] <alexanderW> "Für die vollständige Realisierung der Schrifteneinbettung in den Dokumenten fehlen zur Zeit noch 30.000 €. Weitere Nutzer von LibreOffice/OpenOffice.org sind demnach aufgerufen, einen Beitrag an die Umsetzungsarbeiten zu leisten."
[19:36] <alexanderW> For completely implementing the font embedding in documents we need further 30.000 €. Users of LibreOffice/OpenOffice.org are hereby asked to contribute to this effort."
[19:37] <@mirek2> ok
[19:37] <@mirek2> someone on the esc call said it's being worked on, I believe
[19:37] <alexanderW> cool
[19:38] <@mirek2> I'm not sure, though, maybe I misunderstood
[19:38] <@mirek2> 30000 € sounds a bit much, though
[19:40] <Manas> yes
[19:40] <@mirek2> at least when I compare that to e.g. http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/novacut/novacut-pro-video-editor?ref=live , where they're asking for only 25 000 $ for a whole video editor, with rewards to contributors
[19:40] <Manas> i am sorry for diverting the original topic
[19:40] <alexanderW> That would make it also completely compatible with ooxml
[19:40] <alexanderW> And MS' spec is 6000 pages huge
[19:41] <@mirek2> how does font embedding work with proprietary fonts?
[19:41] <alexanderW> with specs like 'works like this bug in Word '97
[19:41] <@mirek2> :)
[19:41] <alexanderW> :)
[19:41] <alexanderW> I'm not sure
[19:42] <Manas> i think Adobe used to make bitmaps of the fonts...
[19:42] <Manas> I may be wrong
[19:42] <alexanderW> wow, that'd be a really ugly hack
[19:43] <@mirek2> PDFs do that, I believe, but it's not suitable for editable text
[19:43] <Manas> yes, i agree
[19:44] <@mirek2> anyway, let's get back to options
[19:44] <@mirek2> Fonts
[19:45] <@mirek2> use case from Astron: "User very often exchanges documents with company which uses custom font and the standard replacement font (Arial) always ruins the layout."
[19:46] <alexanderW> So we go for advanced?
[19:46] <@mirek2> I'm not sure...
[19:46] <Manas> i think advanced , most people i work with cannot identify fonts beyond serif or sans anyways
[19:47] <@mirek2> I guess advanced is best then
[19:47] <@mirek2> even if the document layout is broken, I suppose a user would be hardpressed to find a font with the exact metrics as the original
[19:47] <Manas> yes
[19:48] <alexanderW> Security
[19:49] <@mirek2> astron's take on killoptions: "Nothing to remove. I like this page—it shows a lot of good design sense and is easy enough to understand."
[19:49] <alexanderW> great
[19:51] <@mirek2> having never used these options, I have to assume they're generally needed, but I'd prefer to not have input here
[19:52] <@mirek2> what do you think?
[19:52] <alexanderW> I'd say advanced
[19:53] <Manas> yes
[19:53] <Manas> most users will not use it
[19:53] <@mirek2> well, since I don't want to have any input here, how about waiting for Astron here?
[19:53] <@mirek2> that most users won't use it is not an argument
[19:54] <alexanderW> okay
[19:54] <@mirek2> most users won't use japanese language support, but it's something that's necessary for the usability of LibreOffice to Japanese users, and therefore it should be generic
[19:54] <alexanderW> ?
[19:54] <alexanderW> ah
[19:55] <@mirek2> I'm just saying that usage isn't a determining factor for generic options
[19:55] <Manas> yes, but the point here is to reduce clutter and if most users don't use it or if it is not a very commonly used feature, we should put it in advanced
[19:56] <@mirek2> the point is to reduce clutter, yes, but based on usability and usefulness, not based on usage
[19:57] <alexanderW> I need to leave for dinner now
[19:57] <@mirek2> ok
[19:58] <alexanderW> thanks for chatting
[19:58] <@mirek2> thank you
[19:58] <alexanderW> Have a nice evening
[19:58] <@mirek2> should I upload the log?
[19:58] <Manas> bye all
[19:58] <alexanderW> Yes, since I still can't figure out how to preserve Empathy's formatting :)
[19:58] <@mirek2> ok :)