Design/Meetings/2012-08-18

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    Attendees

    Topics

    • ESC call
      • Gallery
      • Template repository
      • Download page
    • Insert menu
      • Rename "File" to "Text file"
      • OLE objects
      • Dysfunctional items
    • Gallery
    • Fonts
    • Options

    Log

    [18:00] <mirek2> hi everyone
[18:00] <alexanderW> hi
[18:00] <astron247> ah ... good. youre here too. hi
[18:01] <mirek2> I guess we can get started right away
[18:01] <alexanderW> Yes
[18:01] <astron247> right.
[18:01] <alexanderW> Options?
[18:01] <mirek2> could you update us on the ESC call?
[18:01] <alexanderW> Fonts
[18:01] <mirek2> astron?
[18:01] <astron247> yes.
[18:02] <astron247> okay. uhm, since we didnt do any chat last week, heres a summary of the one from last week:
[18:03] <astron247> * 3.6 didnt turn out as well as it should have, mostly due to issues with updated user profile directories – spell check wouldnt work for many people etc.
[18:03] <astron247> there are some policy changes, like not encouraging people to purge their profiles all the time in bugzilla
[18:04] <astron247> okay, then i discussed very shortly the possibility of a design repo – but i will need to further this on the list so we can get it
[18:04] <alexanderW> okay
[18:04] <mirek2> alright
[18:05] <astron247> hang on there as i recollect...
[18:06] <astron247> right, bjoern had pitched an update for the gallery contents and there was some discussion about that on the ml – it would be great if we could find someone to lead such an effort...
[18:07] <mirek2> do we really want to keep the gallery, though?
[18:07] <astron247> right, jakub wrote back that hed rather use CC (again)
[18:07] <alexanderW> Probably no opencliparts integration for version 4, right?
[18:07] <astron247> mirek: for now, yes.
[18:07] <astron247> alex: no.
[18:07] <mirek2> for now, sure
[18:07] <alexanderW> I think we should remove the toolbar icon for the gallery
[18:08] <mirek2> yes, I think so too
[18:08] <astron247> alex: but we could have someone look through open clipart to find maybe two mb of clipart or so to bundle..?
[18:08] <mirek2> we probably wouldn't bundle
[18:08] <alexanderW> yes, that could be a good short-term solution
[18:09] <astron247> what do you mean "we wouldnt bundle"?
[18:09] <astron247> (@mirek)
[18:09] <mirek2> sorry, I misread what you wrote
[18:09] <mirek2> carry on :)
[18:10] <astron247> okay. so lets discuss the specifics of the clipart stuff after i finished recapping...
[18:10] <alexanderW> IMHO we should remove gallery, bibliograohy tool and that sources icon from the toolbar.
[18:10] <alexanderW> alrigh
[18:11] <astron247> okay, björn has set up a new template repository. i hope hes coordinated with you, alex a bit. but essentially he needs something he can make a release on, so he can slip it into ubuntu
[18:11] <alexanderW> Would that be packeged for ubuntu, seperate from libo?
[18:11] <alexanderW> *packaged
[18:12] <astron247> yes. but it would be in the ubuntu install cd, i believe
[18:12] <astron247> but it is that way today too, even though the templates dont come from a different repo
[18:12] <alexanderW> I'll ask him about the types of templates he'd need
[18:13] <astron247> hes packaged yours for now already.
[18:13] <alexanderW> yes
[18:14] <astron247> anyway...thanks to kendy, windows toolbar will be almost fixed for 3.6.1 (there are no dividing lines between content and toolbar for _vertically-docked_ toolbars ... sad, but maybe there will be a better fix 3.6.2)
[18:15] <astron247> also, bjoern has created design easy hacks, available from the easy hack wiki page. would be good if you could look at them (hevant done that yet either)
[18:16] <astron247> okay, and then there was the idea by mmeeks (?) to bundle adobe's source sans font – which is good and all, but i opposed  that because it doesnt have cyrillic/greek support, hence the idea of the font wishlist
[18:17] <astron247> so, then... on to last week...
[18:17] <astron247> there was an idea to somehow suggest 3.5.6 alongside 3.6.0 on the download page... but subtler than before
[18:18] <astron247> right, and i gave a little update on the fonts wishlist.
[18:19] <alexanderW> Open Sans looks really great
[18:19] <astron247> it does. and its actually optimised for windows too... contrary to what i feared.
[18:20] <astron247> sorry... i thought you were speaking about source sans
[18:20] <mirek2> I really like Open Sans as well
[18:20] <astron247> but yes, open sans is pretty cool
[18:20] <astron247> and it has good language support.
[18:21] <astron247> but well, source sans is also quite nice.
[18:21] <alexanderW> would the website team handle the download page?
[18:21] <astron247> well, i guess. i pondered the idea of making an html mockup, but i dont actually ever wanted to work on the website...
[18:22] <mirek2> how much do they want to change it?
[18:22] <astron247> anyway, i didnt yet.
[18:23] <astron247> well, the idea is just that 3.6.0 was unable to do spell checking for many, so they wanted to pitch the very stable 3.5.6 a bit more on the main download page.
[18:23] <alexanderW> II could imagine having a pastel green box at the top stating: We also offer a more stable version that has been tested for 1/2 a year
[18:24] <astron247> but there are other things that need changing: i. e. you should just be able to click that huge green area and be downloading instead of having to aim at the text inside it
[18:24] <alexanderW> not that green used for the download buttons, but brighter
[18:25] <alexanderW> haven done anything in html for quite some time, but can't one set a picture as href?
[18:25] <alexanderW> *haven't
[18:25] <astron247> alex: i think it is fine that 3.6.0 is presented as the best choice on the download page – we just need more stable .0 releases. so, i would put that box _below_ the green button
[18:26] <alexanderW> Probably
[18:26] <astron247> also, we somehow need to get more people to test prereleases, so that would be another goal (to reach more stable releases).
[18:26] <mirek2> ok
[18:27] <alexanderW> hm, the prereleases are announced on fb, twitter and g+ I think
[18:27] <alexanderW> and many blogs
[18:27] <astron247> sure. but the main website is still the most visited place
[18:28] <alexanderW> I see
[18:28] <astron247> anyway. if either of you want to take that – would be fine.
[18:28] <alexanderW> So should we make a sketch of how we would imagine this to look like?
[18:28] <astron247> good idea. christoph did something like that some time ago.
[18:29] <astron247> (you can steal some ideas, but probably shouldnt use his entire design)
[18:29] <mirek2> is it a plan to only change the Download screen, or can other parts of the website be affected?
[18:30] <astron247> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Download_Page
[18:30] <astron247> mirek, i would keep it as simple as possible for now.
[18:30] <mirek2> ok
[18:32] <astron247> (im coming from the perspective of not wanting to spend too much time with the website – thus the suggestion)
[18:32] <mirek2> astron247: is there anything wrong/inapplicable with christoph's design?
[18:33] <mirek2> since you're saying that we shouldn't use his entire design
[18:33] <astron247> not per se. but i think we should generally give people the latest stable, i think
[18:33] <astron247> -i think
[18:33] <astron247> and the wording could need some help
[18:34] <mirek2> yes
[18:34] <mirek2> and I think the navigation is better in the current version
[18:34] <astron247> you mean the three-tiered menu?
[18:35] <mirek2> I prefer the current menu over the 3-tiered menu
[18:35] <astron247> i agree
[18:37] <mirek2> okay, anything else from the esc call?
[18:37] <alexanderW> WHo will work on this?
[18:37] <astron247> haha. yes. hows your html/css/js?
[18:37] <astron247> mirek: i wrote "thats it" some time ago :)
[18:37] <alexanderW> a bit html
[18:37] <mirek2> oh, sorry, didn't notice
[18:38] <astron247> mirek: at least i hope i wrote that.
[18:38] <mirek2> I probably won't work on the website
[18:38] <mirek2> at least not in the near future
[18:38] <astron247> okay, so since i have to do with html/css all the time at work now... i might try, no guarantees.
[18:39] <mirek2> what are you working on, btw?
[18:39] <mirek2> you said you were doing some documentation for SuSE, right?
[18:40] <astron247> http://sourceforge.net/p/daps/svn/1775/tree/trunk/daps/contrib/layout/
[18:41] <astron247>  the wip folder contains my work-in-progress for the css/html that would be used...
[18:41] <mirek2> ok, seems interesting
[18:41] <astron247> and im using open sans :)
[18:41] <alexanderW> :)
[18:42] <astron247> and flat icons ...
[18:42] <mirek2> :) exactly what I would've done
[18:42] <astron247> (but its fine, there are only few icons and the flat ones just fit in better with suse website
[18:42] <astron247> )
[18:43] <mirek2> ok
[18:44] <astron247> oh. and then: mirek, did you hear the thing about canonicals typography workshop at all?
[18:45] <mirek2> I heard it was cancelled, but it will be part of uds
[18:45] <mirek2> is there more?
[18:46] <astron247> well, i didnt want you to be completely uninformed about that, in case youre interested
[18:46] <mirek2> sure
[18:47] <mirek2> alex wrote something about it on the last meeting, though
[18:47] <astron247> oh... last week was a chat?
[18:47] <alexanderW> yes
[18:47] <mirek2> yes
[18:47] <mirek2> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings/2012-08-11
[18:47] <alexanderW> we simply workled on the options
[18:47] <alexanderW> *worked
[18:47] <astron247> sorry about the selfcentredness here...
[18:48] <alexanderW> It's okay
[18:48] <mirek2> there's nothing to apologize for
[18:48] <astron247> anyway, im pretty interested in the workshop and will apply for sponsorship some time soon.
[18:49] <mirek2> alright
[18:49] <alexanderW> Unfortunately I have no idea whether I'll have time
[18:49] <mirek2> when is the next UDS?
[18:49] <alexanderW> 30. oct
[18:49] <alexanderW> around that time
[18:50] <mirek2> and where?
[18:50] <astron247> copenhagen
[18:50] <alexanderW> copenhagen
[18:50] <astron247> frist!!
[18:50] <alexanderW> *first
[18:50] <mirek2> :)
[18:50] <alexanderW> :)
[18:50] <astron247> that was deliberate
[18:50] <alexanderW> of course...
[18:51] <astron247> no, really, i actually had to retype it.
[18:51] <alexanderW> Sure, why not
[18:52] <alexanderW> I send a mail to the list dealing with cleaning up the menus
[18:52] <mirek2> I saw it
[18:52] <alexanderW> Did you read it already?
[18:52] <astron247> just now?
[18:52] <mirek2> yes
[18:52] <alexanderW> two hours ago
[18:53] <mirek2> it's funny that you recommend turning on icons in the menu bar, which is an option we've ruled against
[18:53] <alexanderW> oops
[18:53] <astron247> right. didnt someone else have a similar idea a few months ago?
[18:53] <mirek2> yes
[18:53] <alexanderW> I think  that was a complete overhault
[18:53] <mirek2> though I prefer Alex's idea
[18:53] <alexanderW> *overhaul
[18:54] <alexanderW> Having icons is actually inconsistent, but a lot better imho
[18:54] <astron247> alex: overhauling the menu sorting is really easy. its just some xml file
[18:54] <alexanderW> I assumed that
[18:54] <mirek2> I suppose it's a good idea in the short run, but in the long run, I would like to see toolbars become more powerful, making it unnecessary to use the menubar
[18:55] <alexanderW> I didn't remove or add anything, just reordered it
[18:55] <mirek2> but I realize that's a long way to go
[18:55] <mirek2> I like the idea
[18:55] <alexanderW> that would be a rather quick solution
[18:55] <mirek2> yes
[18:55] <mirek2> I would prefer a more accessible Insert toolbar, though
[18:56] <mirek2> in the long run, at least
[18:56] <mirek2> about icons in menus
[18:56] <mirek2> it's complicated
[18:57] <astron247> okay, so there are three things from my side:
[18:57] <astron247> #1 inserting a picture is really the no 1 thing i do with insert
[18:57] <astron247> #2 comments are also very important to me, but i usually do that by keyboard
[18:57] <astron247> #3 "fields" must be very important to lots of people...
[18:58] <astron247> sorry for not following the discussion... but, for practical reasons (number of icons) we shouldnt put icons in our menus
[18:58] <mirek2> on menu icons: they make sense when you don't have key functionality in the toolbar and have it in the menu; on the other hand, they go against most OS principles
[18:58] <astron247> that, too
[18:58] <mirek2> astron247: I don't think we need an icon for every menu item
[18:58] <alexanderW> ok, so that's mostly a personal preference
[18:59] <alexanderW> #1 We could move the inser picture entry to the top
[19:00] <alexanderW> #2 ? no idea
[19:00] <alexanderW> #3 Put it into the top group?
[19:01] <astron247> hm not sure about #3 either.
[19:01] <mirek2> me neither
[19:02] <astron247> also, "frame" logically belongs into section one, i think... even though few people ever use
[19:02] <astron247> it
[19:02] <mirek2> in that case, so does "file", doesn't it?
[19:03] <astron247> no..?
[19:03] <mirek2> why not? if insert>picture belongs up there?
[19:03] <astron247> ah, right ... picture belongs to the bottom, logically
[19:04] <astron247> (i would say)
[19:04] <mirek2> well, we're getting to the exact same menu we have now
[19:04] <astron247> yes.
[19:04] <mirek2> btw, https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/8/80/Cleaning_up_Writer_Insert.png seems to be missing some items
[19:04] == alexanderW [~alexander@dslb-088-078-121-142.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
[19:05] <mirek2> like scanning functionality or audio/video
[19:05] == alexanderW [~alexander@dslb-088-078-121-142.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #libreoffice-design
[19:05] <astron247> right, it lacks the picture submenu and a/v
[19:05] <alexanderW> sorry, the connection dropped
[19:05] <astron247> thats fine
[19:05] <astron247> alex, where would you put audio and video?
[19:05] <mirek2> I don't think you missed anything
[19:06] <astron247> (in the insert menu)
[19:06] <alexanderW> ah,  I did remove somthing
[19:06] <alexanderW> this entry
[19:06] <astron247> accidentally or deliberately?
[19:06] <mirek2> +scanning +the object dropdown menu
[19:06] <alexanderW> Deliberately
[19:06] <astron247> okay...
[19:07] <alexanderW> the scanning/picture menu entry should actually stay the same
[19:07] <alexanderW> the menu items from 'object' were moved into the main menu
[19:08] <mirek2> where is OLE object?
[19:08] <mirek2> did you rename it to "Document"?
[19:08] <alexanderW> I renamed it Document, can you insert anything else with it?
[19:08] <alexanderW> yes
[19:09] <astron247> ugh... i just opened the horizontal rule item and was welcomed to the nineties
[19:09] <mirek2> well, I wouldn't really say drawings are documents
[19:09] <alexanderW> indeed
[19:09] <mirek2> right
[19:09] <mirek2> I would like to get rid of that dialog
[19:10] <mirek2> make it into an extension, perhaps, Mozilla-style?
[19:10] <astron247> well, just like the clip art dialogue, it could profit fro msome professionalism.
[19:10] <alexanderW> But should we present users with the term OLE object?
[19:11] <mirek2> is it useful, though? can't people simply use shapes for the functionality?
[19:11] <mirek2> frankly, I find the "Insert File" name confusing
[19:11] <astron247> right, those are just shapes
[19:12] <mirek2> it sounds like it could insert any type of file, stand as a way to insert any media, including pictures
[19:12] <alexanderW> agree
[19:12] <mirek2> but all it does is insert a text file
[19:13] <mirek2> while we're at it, I think it'd be great to have one "Insert File" or "Insert Media" button instead of Insert Picture, Insert Movie/Sound, and Insert File
[19:14] <mirek2> anyway, I would propose renaming "Insert>File" to "Insert>Text File"
[19:14] <mirek2> or at least something along those lines
[19:14] <astron247> trying to insert a zip file through insert file... libo offers me to repair it... and i can only forcefully close it now without damaging the zip file...
[19:14] <alexanderW> sounds good
[19:14] <alexanderW> I inserted an mp3
[19:15] <alexanderW> took a while
[19:15] <astron247> i can imagine
[19:15] <alexanderW> but then the open file dialog should only allow text files
[19:15] <astron247> anyway, ive successfully inserted a makefile
[19:16] <alexanderW> great, a makefile should have nice formatting, too
[19:16] <mirek2> would it be ok to rename it to "text file", then?
[19:17] <astron247> absolutely
[19:17] <alexanderW> I think so
[19:17] <alexanderW> What about the picture entry
[19:17] <alexanderW> keep the split into from file/scan
[19:17] <astron247> or text document maybe?
[19:17] <alexanderW> ?
[19:17] <astron247> sorry stil on the previous topic
[19:18] <mirek2> I would keep the split for now
[19:18] <astron247> i mean "name it 'text document...'"
[19:18] <mirek2> I would name it text file
[19:18] <mirek2> text document might sound a bit more like what OLE object can do
[19:18] <alexanderW> Well, if you can insert txt files I'd stay with file
[19:19] <mirek2> on that note, I think we should keep calling OLE object OLE objects
[19:19] <alexanderW> what does that stand for?
[19:20] <alexanderW> Object Linking and Embedding
[19:20] <mirek2> yes
[19:20] <mirek2> I believe "Document" would confuse current users of OLE objects
[19:20] <mirek2> especially since it doesn't just handle LibreOffice text documents
[19:21] <mirek2> and, frankly, I don't think it's functionality that newbies really need to be aware of
[19:22] <mirek2> it's not something that would help you create a good printable document
[19:23] <mirek2> and the UI is pretty strange
[19:23] <alexanderW> it was in a submenu before
[19:23] <astron247> haha... i tried to browse for a plugin to insert and libreoffice crashed
[19:23] <alexanderW> same here
[19:23] <alexanderW> better hide that 'feature'
[19:23] <alexanderW> Should we hide the JS functionality, too?
[19:25] <mirek2> does it malfunction as well?
[19:25] <alexanderW> I don't think so
[19:25] <mirek2> I wouldn't hide any features that work
[19:25] <astron247> mirek: do you use 3.6.0 proper right now?
[19:26] <mirek2> no
[19:26] <mirek2> I should, I know
[19:26] <mirek2> and I'll get to it, I hope
[19:26] <astron247> :) i am also still using 3.5 here...
[19:26] <mirek2> :)
[19:26] <alexanderW> 3.61 :)
[19:26] <astron247> (and a self-built version of master)
[19:26] <alexanderW> *.
[19:26] <mirek2> I've had a chance to look at 3.6 on Windows 8 beta
[19:27] <mirek2> the text on the splash screen is misaligned
[19:27] <mirek2> and hard to read
[19:27] <astron247> hm, im asking because 3.5 only complains about the plugin manager being missing.
[19:27] <astron247> mirek: yes, thats bug...
[19:28] <astron247> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=52268
[19:28] <mirek2> yes
[19:28] <alexanderW> hm, a hello world alert doesn't work
[19:28] <alexanderW> just a green rectangle
[19:28] <astron247> alex: you need java for javascript to work – libo uses mozillas ancient rhino js engine that was written in java
[19:29] <alexanderW> awesome
[19:29] <alexanderW> I think I have java installed and selected in libo
[19:29] <alexanderW> strange
[19:30] <alexanderW> so, should we keep this in the menu?
[19:30] <mirek2> if it's dysfunctional for the majority of users, then no
[19:30] <mirek2> otherwise, yes
[19:30] <alexanderW> dunno about the majority of users
[19:30] <astron247> most users probably have java installed.
[19:30] <astron247> (except on ubuntu)
[19:30] <mirek2> :)
[19:31] <mirek2> it'd be nice if LibreOffice could tell people that they need java installed
[19:31] <alexanderW> it does
[19:31] <mirek2> really?
[19:31] <mirek2> I don't mean on startup, but when one is trying to use a java-dependent feature
[19:32] <alexanderW> when you start it without java installed it tells you that somefunctionality will be missing
[19:32] <alexanderW> ah
[19:32] <alexanderW> no, not in such a detailed way
[19:33] <mirek2> in any case, I suppose we should leave it in for now
[19:33] <astron247> right
[19:33] <alexanderW> okay
[19:34] <alexanderW> Keeping the old insert picture menu?
[19:34] <mirek2> yes
[19:34] <alexanderW> Or renming it to media and merging?
[19:34] <alexanderW> *renaming
[19:34] <mirek2> I would love for that to happen, but it would need design and developers
[19:34] <mirek2> we could start a design process, if you'd like
[19:35] <alexanderW> what exactly would need to be designed?
[19:35] <mirek2> this dialog could also carry Gallery functionality
[19:36] <mirek2> that way, we'd have all the "Insert media" features in one place
[19:36] <alexanderW> maybe insert media
[19:36] <alexanderW> > From File
[19:36] <alexanderW> > From gallery
[19:36] <alexanderW> > scan picture
[19:36] <mirek2> that seems to complex
[19:36] <mirek2> +o
[19:37] <mirek2> I would prefer a dialog that would provide all of these options
[19:37] <astron247> but for now that would be a good place for the gallery, i think
[19:37] <astron247> mirek: nice thinking
[19:37] <alexanderW> and remove the gallery from 'ttols'?
[19:37] <astron247> yes.
[19:37] <alexanderW> qmirek: in the long run maybe
[19:37] <mirek2> yes
[19:37] <mirek2> but merging "Insert picture" and "Insert video/audio" is a good first step
[19:38] <mirek2> do you think it would be easy to implement?
[19:38] <astron247> although the gallery comes up docked, so it might also makes sense to add it to View
[19:39] <mirek2> I'd leave the menu structure for now and focus on toolbars
[19:39] <mirek2> given that there are so many inconsistencies and categorical overlaps in the menu structure
[19:40] <mirek2> and given that some people use Alt shortcuts to access menus
[19:40] <mirek2> and given that a lot of people are just accustomed to the current categorization
[19:41] <alexanderW> should we remove gallery, bibliography and the sources icon?
[19:42] <alexanderW> from the toolbar shown by default?
[19:42] <mirek2> I wouldn't do that right now
[19:43] <alexanderW> only gallery?
[19:43] <mirek2> I would prefer to do a more intensive toolbar rehash
[19:43] <mirek2> later
[19:43] <alexanderW> yeah, probably
[19:43] <mirek2> that depends on what we want to do with the gallery
[19:44] <mirek2> if we update the graphics, remove the unnecessary stuff, and add clip art to it, then I suppose we could keep it there
[19:44] <mirek2> we might also want to adopt OpenOffice.org's future gallery for some time
[19:45] <mirek2> I mean Symphony's old gallery that's planned for OOo
[19:45] <mirek2> sorry, AOO, not OOo
[19:46] <astron247> isnt that the same gallery but with different icons?
[19:46] <mirek2> but, as I said, I would prefer to let go of the gallery in favor of a feature-full "Insert media" dialog
[19:46] <mirek2> astron247: no, it has a completely different layout
[19:46] <mirek2> it's a sidebar instead of a horizontal bar
[19:46] <astron247> okay.
[19:46] <astron247> fyi, ive opened https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=53682
[19:48] <mirek2> great
[19:48] <astron247> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=53681
[19:48] <mirek2> could you also open one for renaming "Insert File"
[19:48] <alexanderW> is it realistic that we can integrate AOO's gallery in 4?
[19:49] <mirek2> idk
[19:49] <alexanderW> Is that neccesary?
[19:49] <alexanderW> We can discuss that with UX I think
[19:50] <astron247> huh? who is ux, except us right now?
[19:50] <astron247> (and the developers on ux)
[19:50] <mirek2> ux-advise
[19:50] <alexanderW> then I meant the devs on UX
[19:50] <alexanderW> There's no seperate team?
[19:50] <astron247> no
[19:51] <alexanderW> ok+
[19:51] <mirek2> as I said, though, I'd prefer to integrate the gallery into "Insert media", so perhaps taking Symphony's gallery isn't worth the effort?
[19:51] <mirek2> what do you think about the idea?
[19:52] <alexanderW> I'd prefer to have it seperate
[19:52] <astron247> good idea. but "insert media" will be easy, but integrating a gallery is hard
[19:52] <astron247> also, insert media is only a file picker
[19:52] <alexanderW> otherwise the file manager would need to be integrated into the gallery
[19:54] <mirek2> btw, here's what google docs does: http://img.labnol.org/di/stock_photos.jpg
[19:54] <mirek2> but, yes, the file manager should be integrated into the dialog, imo
[19:54] <mirek2> and, yes, it would be hard to do
[19:55] <mirek2> but I would really prefer an integrated "Insert media" experience instead of a gallery sidebar and insert media dialog
[19:55] <astron247> sure.
[19:57] <mirek2> so I'm wondering whether it might not be a good idea to start designing that instead of making a lot of effort with Symphony's gallery and ending up with a subpar experience
[19:59] <mirek2> so... are we staying with the current gallery or adopting Symphony's?
[19:59] <mirek2> in your opinion?
[19:59] <astron247> okay, so michael would have liked to port symphonys sidebars completely to libo for 3.6 already... but i think they probably wouldnt have fit the product
[20:00] <astron247> therefore, it would make sense to design our own gallery, but not right now
[20:00] <astron247> there are too many projects that just end up by the wayside already.
[20:00] <mirek2> yes
[20:00] <mirek2> alright
[20:02] <astron247> okay. are we through with the insert menu for now?
[20:02] <mirek2> yes
[20:02] <astron247> okay, can we quickly discuss fonts, then?
[20:02] <mirek2> sure
[20:03] <astron247> how many do you think we should be adding at a maximum?
[20:03] <astron247> and what should we look for in the fonts?
[20:03] <mirek2> I wouldn't put a limit on the number of fonts
[20:03] <mirek2> I would analyze each font and pick the ones that suits us the most
[20:04] <astron247> we need to have some idea, because we dont want to end up with libreoffice being too huge.
[20:04] <alexanderW> I would remove fonts that are currently included that we wouldn't have added with today's standards
[20:04] <mirek2> yes
[20:04] <astron247> right. thats another question.
[20:04] <alexanderW> DejaVu
[20:04] <astron247> oh really?
[20:04] <mirek2> astron247: I don't think we need to worry about minimum size that much, only since there aren't that many fonts to choose from
[20:05] <alexanderW> Didn't you critizise it's hinting?
[20:05] <astron247> ah, yes, on windows its not so nice. but it is quite the polyglot, and kind of a standard on open source platforms
[20:06] <mirek2> for analysis: language support, hinting, suitability for both headings and small text, ...
[20:06] <astron247> (and admittedly, i dont like its letter shapes too much either)
[20:06] <mirek2> me neither
[20:06] <mirek2> but perhaps it's important for compatibility reasons?
[20:07] <astron247> yes. its really important there. and as i said, it covers lots of languages
[20:07] <alexanderW> ok, so maybe only add fonts at the beginning
[20:07] <alexanderW> worry about removing others later
[20:07] <mirek2> yes
[20:07] <alexanderW> ?
[20:08] <astron247> caolan mentioned some font we  ship that did ascii only .. but i cant remember the fonts name
[20:09] <mirek2> what was the initial reason for shipping it?
[20:09] <astron247> no idea.
[20:09] <alexanderW> StarDivision?
[20:10] <alexanderW> being the reaso
[20:10] <mirek2> that would make sense, I guess
[20:10] <astron247> no, the stardivision fonts were all licensed from agfa and are proprietary
[20:10] <astron247> (except for open symbol which we need as a wingdings replacement)
[20:11] <mirek2> ok
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[20:12] <alexanderW> So that was broccoli
[20:12] <mirek2> :)
[20:12] <astron247> never liked it.
[20:12] <mirek2> anyway, should we determine the characteristics fonts should have?
[20:12] <astron247> nah... never mind
[20:12] <astron247> yes. a
[20:12] <alexanderW> We wouldn't want fonts like this one: http://www.fontspace.com/peter-wiegel/centreclaws ?
[20:13] <astron247> probably not... sorry.
[20:13] <mirek2> no, I wouldn't bundle display fonts
[20:13] <alexanderW> droid sans seemed nice, but it doesn't have italics
[20:13] <mirek2> yes, that really surprised me
[20:13] <astron247> okay, youve seen the table thats on the wiki page already?
[20:13] <alexanderW> yes
[20:13] <mirek2> yes, but now I can't get to it
[20:13] <mirek2> server error
[20:13] <astron247> it was for space reasons on the g1
[20:14] <alexanderW> going offline for a sec. brb
[20:14] <astron247> (the g1 had somewhat tight internal memory, thus they made italics on the fly)
[20:15] <mirek2> I'm a bit disappointed, though -- I really like Droid Sans
[20:15] <astron247> i.e. the devices did that, actually not italics just artificial oblique
[20:15] <mirek2> also, someone mentioned that it makes a good Calibri replacement
[20:15] <mirek2> yes, I understand
[20:16] <mirek2> on that note -- do you think we might want to pay to have a Calibri replacement developed?
[20:16] <mirek2> perhaps start a Kickstarter campaign?
[20:16] <astron247> if you want to spend lots of money, sure.
[20:17] <mirek2> :) would it really cost that much?
[20:17] <astron247> well, ask canonical how much they paid dalton maag...
[20:17] <mirek2> I'm not sure how good of a replacement Droid Sans is, but perhaps it could take just some minor adjustments to have the same metrics as Calibri
[20:18] <astron247> hm, yeah, someone could try that.
[20:18] <astron247> in any case, i actually like open sans better – and it is quite similar to droid sans
[20:18] <mirek2> me too
[20:18] <astron247> okay... i will go offline in a few minutes sorry.
[20:18] <mirek2> ok
[20:18] <mirek2> will you be back?
[20:19] <astron247> no
[20:19] <mirek2> alright
[20:19] <mirek2> anything else before you go?
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[20:19] <mirek2> hi alex
[20:19] <alexander> and back
[20:19] <alexander> hi
[20:19] == alexander has changed nick to Guest29459
[20:19] <Guest29459> oh well
[20:20] <astron247> anyway, criteria:
[20:20] <astron247> * license
[20:20] <astron247> * usefulness on windows
[20:20] <astron247> * italics
[20:20] <astron247> * professional font
[20:20] <astron247> * good text font
[20:20] <Guest29459> latin extended is minimum?
[20:20] <Guest29459> or also cyrillic and greek
[20:21] <mirek2> I would leave latin extended as minimum, but cyrillic and greek as preferred; "italics" should read "bold+italics"
[20:21] <mirek2> astron, thoughts?
[20:24] <mirek2> alex, you missed it, but astron said he'll be offline in a few minutes a few minutes ago
[20:24] <mirek2> so perhaps he's gone now
[20:24] <Guest29459> ok
[20:24] <Guest29459> yes, bold and italics
[20:25] <Guest29459> can LibreOffice make fake italics + bold chars?
[20:25] <astron247> yes. latin extended as minimum
[20:25] <astron247> and yes, it can but it doesnt look good :)
[20:25] <mirek2> :)
[20:26] <astron247> also, can you try develop a plan for when we should present the result to the devs later on?
[20:26] <astron247> (ill leave now)
[20:26] <astron247> bye
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[20:26] <mirek2> bye
[20:26] <Guest29459> what result?
[20:26] <mirek2> the picked fonts, I suppose
[20:27] <Guest29459> okay
[20:27] <mirek2> btw, I posted the first part of the irc log, if you feel like you need to catch up
[20:27] <mirek2> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings/2012-08-18
[20:27] <Guest29459> thx
[20:28] <Guest29459> caught up
[20:28] <mirek2> I'm not really sure what Astron means here, though -- I'd present the fonts when we feel like we have picked out the most fitting fonts
[20:29] <Guest29459> Maybe we should take a look at the most used fonts on google online fonts
[20:29] <mirek2> perhaps we should establish a due date for submitting fonts -- next irc chat, maybe?
[20:30] <Guest29459> sounds good
[20:30] <mirek2> ok
[20:30] <Guest29459> announce it somewhere?
[20:30] <Guest29459> and emphasize what the requirements are
[20:31] <mirek2> the mailing list is good enough
[20:32] <mirek2> next irc chat we should analyze the fonts, then, pick out the best ones, and be done with it
[20:32] <mirek2> present it to the developers through both ux-advise and on the ESC call
[20:33] <mirek2> does that sound good?
[20:33] <Guest29459> it does
[20:33] <mirek2> ok
[20:33] <mirek2> there's a topic I wanted to discuss: the wiki
[20:34] <Guest29459> what in particular?
[20:34] <mirek2> right now, we have a lot of outdated pages
[20:34] <mirek2> that are of little use to designers
[20:34] <mirek2> and might be misleading rather than helpful
[20:34] <mirek2> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/User_Experience/Tools
[20:34] <mirek2> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Team
[20:34] <mirek2> parts of https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Visual_Elements
[20:35] <Guest29459> Update them?
[20:36] <mirek2> I'm not sure whether it's worth it
[20:36] <Guest29459> Wrt the team page
[20:36] <mirek2> it's more stuff for a would-be designer to read
[20:37] <mirek2> it's best to stay as streamlined as possible
[20:37] <Guest29459> Should be low priority I guess
[20:37] <mirek2> what do you think about removing them?
[20:37] <mirek2> at least from the main menu?
[20:38] <mirek2> I feel like if a designer looks at https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/User_Experience/Tools , he might be overwhelmed and less willing to help out
[20:38] <mirek2> and, let's face it, we don't really use the tools described there except Inkscape and Gimp, which are already described on the homepage
[20:38] <Guest29459> the links shouldn't be removed completely
[20:38] <mirek2> mentioned, not described
[20:40] <mirek2> what would you suggest, then?
[20:41] <mirek2> alex?
[20:41] <Guest29459> we would need to use them, though
[20:41] <Guest29459> have a page with links to mostly superfluous wiki pages
[20:41] <Guest29459> yes
[20:41] <Guest29459> ?
[20:42] <mirek2> isn't https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Category:Design enough for that?
[20:44] <Guest29459> didn't think of that
[20:45] <Guest29459> so keep them, but remove links
[20:45] <Guest29459> ?
[20:45] <mirek2> ok
[20:46] <mirek2> also, on https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Team, could I move you and astron to the top?
[20:46] <mirek2> since you're the most involved right now
[20:46] <Guest29459> I guess
[20:46] <mirek2> ok
[20:47] <Guest29459> Is christoph now an alumni?
[20:47] <Guest29459> and the others?
[20:47] <mirek2> I'll remove the links to Tools and Team now
[20:47] <mirek2> I don't know, honestly
[20:47] <mirek2> I think some people still follow the discussions, but rarely take part in them
[20:47] <mirek2> Björn wanted to do some icon testing fairly recently
[20:48] <mirek2> not sure what the status is on that
[20:48] <mirek2> he mentions that Astron is involved on the team design page
[20:48] <Guest29459> i see
[20:49] <Guest29459> Anything else we'd need to discuss?
[20:49] <mirek2> if you'd like to, we could look at options again
[20:50] <Guest29459> yeah, a bit
[20:50] <mirek2> I'm thinking whether there's anything else...
[20:50] <mirek2> any updates on the icons for the template dialog?
[20:51] <Guest29459> did't astron mail them to rafael?
[20:51] <mirek2> really? are they done already?
[20:52] <Guest29459> no idea
[20:52] <Guest29459> I assumed it
[20:52] <mirek2> ok
[20:52] <mirek2> not sure
[20:53] <mirek2> alright -- options
[20:53] <mirek2> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Analyses/Global_Options
[20:53] <mirek2> I'm not sure why "Ask Astron" is under UI colors
[20:53] <mirek2> I don't think we've gotten there last time
[20:54] <mirek2> also, should I edit or will you?
[20:54] <Guest29459> probably you
[20:54] <mirek2> alright
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[20:56] <mirek2_> I'm looking through the last chat for UI colors
[20:59] <mirek2_> I'm so confused: I can't find macro editing or UI colors in the last chat log
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[21:00] <Guest29459> should we leave that point for now?
[21:00] <mirek2_> oh, ok
[21:00] <mirek2_> from the log, security seems to be the one to ask astron about
[21:00] <mirek2_> and UI colors went undiscussed
[21:01] <mirek2_> right?
[21:01] <Guest29459> possibly
[21:01] <mirek2_> at least that's how it seems to me
[21:02] <mirek2_> perhaps it was just a misunderstanding? could you check https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings/2012-08-11
[21:02] <mirek2_> would you agree with labeling Security as "Ask Astron"?
[21:04] <Guest29459> yes
[21:04] <Guest29459> appearance?
[21:05] <mirek2_> I would say it's advanced
[21:05] <Guest29459> yes
[21:05] <mirek2_> ok
[21:05] <Guest29459> accessibility
[21:06] <Guest29459> keep it, but move 'detect high contrast' to advaced
[21:06] <mirek2_> let's go one-by-one first
[21:06] <mirek2_> assistive technology tools
[21:06] <mirek2_> I'm surprised that's an option -- I would think they should be supported from the beginning
[21:07] <Guest29459> can't find that
[21:07] <Guest29459> miscellaneous options?
[21:08] <mirek2_> oh, you're checking with LibreOffice again
[21:08] <Guest29459> yes
[21:08] <mirek2_> perhaps you should edit the wiki, since I really have no clue what's new in 3.6.1
[21:09] <mirek2_> what the options look like
[21:09] <Guest29459> o
[21:09] <Guest29459> ok
[21:12] <Guest29459> that's it
[21:13] <mirek2_> is "Use text selection cursor in read-only text document" there?
[21:13] <Guest29459> yes
[21:14] <mirek2_> is "Support assistive technology tools (program restart required)" the only option missing?
[21:14] <Guest29459> yes
[21:14] <mirek2_> ok :)
[21:14] <mirek2_> hm... I'm wondering what a good default would be in this case
[21:15] <mirek2_> what do you think?
[21:15] <Guest29459> I don't know what this actually means
[21:16] <Guest29459> regarding the text sxelction
[21:16] <Guest29459> *selection
[21:16] <mirek2_> well, I think the blinking text cursor is usually not shown in read-only documents
[21:17] <Guest29459> advanced?
[21:17] <mirek2_> but it's useful to know where the cursor is in case you select text with a keyboard
[21:17] <Guest29459> or is it in order not to lose focus?
[21:17] <Guest29459> okay, so keeping it?
[21:17] <mirek2_> I'm not sure
[21:18] <mirek2_> I would like to open a read-only document before deciding
[21:18] <mirek2_> in any case, I would skip it for now
[21:18] <Guest29459> yes
[21:19] <Guest29459> automatically detect high contrast mode
[21:19] <Guest29459> should be default and advanced?
[21:19] <mirek2_> yes
[21:19] <mirek2_> Allow animated graphics
[21:20] <Guest29459> keep?
[21:20] <mirek2_> I suppose
[21:21] <mirek2_> ok, mark it as generic
[21:21] <Guest29459> same for animated text and help tips?
[21:21] <mirek2_> help tips I would make unnecessary
[21:22] <mirek2_> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Whiteboards/KillOptions#Accessibility
[21:23] <Guest29459> okay
[21:23] <mirek2_> with animated text, I think the preferable default behavior would be to disable it by default and show an option to enable it when a document with animated text is opened
[21:23] <mirek2_> but that would, of course, need some development effort
[21:24] <Guest29459> I think that effort isn't neccessary
[21:24] <mirek2_> honestly, it bothers me to have this option under generic options
[21:24] <mirek2_> I'm frustrated that ODF supports animated text in the first place
[21:24] <Guest29459> so going for advanced?
[21:24] <mirek2_> no, it needs to be generic
[21:24] <Guest29459> animated text is the future
[21:25] <Guest29459> </s>
[21:25] <mirek2_> :)
[21:25] <Guest29459> :)
[21:26] <mirek2_> "Use automatic font color for screen display"
[21:26] <Guest29459> default and advanced?
[21:26] <mirek2_> yes
[21:27] <mirek2_> Use system colors for page previews
[21:27] <Guest29459> "Use system colors for page previews"
[21:27] <Guest29459> keep, since "To remove this, LibreOffice would need more precise detection methods for high-contrast mode."
[21:27] <mirek2_> yes, ok
[21:27] <mirek2_> so generic, then
[21:28] <mirek2_> Use a Java runtime environment
[21:28] <mirek2_> generic
[21:28] <mirek2_> for now
[21:28] <Guest29459> or advanced?
[21:29] <mirek2_> ok, advanced then
[21:29] <Guest29459> someone merged it with another options pane
[21:29] <mirek2_> it's enabled by default if you have Java installed, right?
[21:29] <Guest29459> I think so
[21:29] <mirek2_> oh, right, forgot about that
[21:29] <mirek2_> ok, I'd make all of Java advanced, then
[21:30] <mirek2_> Online update
[21:30] <mirek2_> I'd mark it as "Contextual", seeing as someone planned to integrate it into the "About" dialog
[21:31] <Guest29459> okay
[21:31] <mirek2_> on the other hand, I think it fits better under generic
[21:31] <mirek2_> we should probably see if the person who wanted to work on it still plans to work on it
[21:32] <Guest29459> yes
[21:32] <mirek2_> ok
[21:32] <Guest29459> I have to go now
[21:32] <mirek2_> alright
[21:32] <mirek2_> nice chatting with you
[21:32] <mirek2_> and enjoy your weekend
[21:32] <Guest29459> You too
    Retrieved from "https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/index.php?title=Design/Meetings/2012-08-18&oldid=122781"