Design/Meetings/2012-09-08

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16:16:02 astron:'ello
16:17:40 alexanderwilms: hi
16:18:02 astron: sorry for my two weeks of absence...
16:18:24 alexanderwilms: I was absent the week before the last one, too
16:18:51 alexanderwilms: I made some progress on the Tango-testing theme
16:19:02 astron: yes, i saw that...
16:19:09 astron: that's great!
16:19:21 alexanderwilms: :)
16:19:25 astron: (well, i think i saw it)
16:19:27 alexanderwilms: are there any icons you disagree with?
16:19:42 astron: hm... the tables icon is a bit too green, i think
16:20:24 alexanderwilms: okay, maybe a bit darker and less saturated?
16:21:19 astron: yes. also, please try to respect the tango guideline of using two strokes (a dark and a light one) next to each other for the outline
16:21:39 astron: – you don't have to make the light one all that light though.
16:22:47 alexanderwilms: alright
16:22:49 astron: wait, i just saw you did that
16:22:52 astron: sorry
16:23:02 alexanderwilms: the contrast is not that high
16:24:25 alexanderwilms: Is the metaphor masterpages okay?
16:24:33 astron: lemme have a look
16:24:55 astron: looks great!
16:25:25 alexanderwilms: thanks
16:25:37 astron: although you don't seem to have done small ones yet..? is that on your roadmap, too?
16:26:19 alexanderwilms: I wanted to ensure that the lc_ ones are okay with you before doing the small ones
16:26:28 astron: ah. okay.
16:26:46 astron: well, i guess the small ones are really rather tricky...
16:27:09 alexanderwilms: I saw that at least one icon for calc was 26x26px
16:27:38 alexanderwilms: Can theoratically any canvas size be used?
16:27:49 astron: ahm. yes.
16:28:32 astron: but: the original theme (which used to be classic but is galaxy now) always has to use 16*16 and 26*26. all other themes can use whatever they want
16:28:46 astron: :)
16:29:03 alexanderwilms: interesting
16:29:15 astron: so, i guess going 22*22 wouldnt present us with a huge problem actually.
16:29:20 alexanderwilms: especially wrt 'retina' displays
16:29:31 astron: if you do say so, yes.
16:30:05 astron: sure, there's a lot more to catering for hi-ppi displays than icons, but that can actually be a good start.
16:31:15 astron: do you know if mireks gonna come today?
16:31:30 alexanderwilms: He send a mail saying he wouldn't make it
16:31:36 astron: ah okay.
16:31:55 astron: then, i guess ill inform you about the last two irc calls... right?
16:32:51 alexanderwilms: I attended the last one
16:32:56 alexanderwilms: or esc?
16:33:21 astron: uhm... yes. esc calls.
16:33:57 alexanderwilms: I read the notes
16:34:03 astron: but you can tell me about the gist of the last irc meeting. :)
16:34:10 alexanderwilms: Lubos is working on Font embedding :)
16:34:32 alexanderwilms: yes
16:34:43 astron: yes. that is great. and font downloading is still only on the horizon...
16:35:22 alexanderwilms: ...
16:35:24 alexanderwilms: one sec
16:36:25 alexanderwilms: We weren't sure how to credit the Gnome icons
16:36:42 alexanderwilms: But since we discussed that via mail it's resolved
16:37:11 astron: half resolved at least...
16:37:15 astron: anyway...
* two weeks ago there wasnt much design-wise, except eike added some ui to edit date acceptance patterns. it sounded pretty horrible to me – and it seems like it is...
16:37:34 astron: do you have a recent master build at hand?
16:38:02 alexanderwilms: No, I talked to William if he can upload his master builds somewhere
16:38:56 alexanderwilms: It takes ages to compile and I still wasn't able to build it myself
16:39:02 astron: what stops you from running...
http://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/Linux-Fedora17-x86_64@4-gcc-4.7-dbgutil/master/
16:39:36 astron: ?
16:39:39 alexanderwilms: Does it work when I convert the package with alien?
16:40:03 astron: oh, does this contain rpms?
16:40:07 alexanderwilms: Yes
16:40:17 astron: uh sorry. bad avice then.
16:40:19 astron: +d
16:40:42 astron: hm... well you can run the windows build under wine.
16:40:47 astron: its a kludge though
16:41:03 alexanderwilms: Didn't work for me
16:41:15 alexanderwilms: I could try it again, though
16:41:21 astron: oh. well thats really bad then.
16:42:40 astron: oh and then, isnt there a ppa by bjoern?
16:43:06 alexanderwilms: I think it only contains updated releases
16:43:49 alexanderwilms: 1:3.6.1~rc2-1ubuntu3~precise1
16:43:58 alexanderwilms: that's the newest version in the PPA
16:44:31 astron: okay. im zipping up my build right now.
16:44:39 alexanderwilms: thanks
16:44:41 astron: and will upload to dropbox...
16:45:01 astron: not sure it will work for you, since i am now building on o-suse
16:45:38 alexanderwilms: For testing the icons I modified images_tango.zip
16:46:01 astron: that's probably the sanest possible thing :)
16:46:02 alexanderwilms: Does the master build contain icons for the template dialog in icon-themes/tango ?
16:46:10 astron: mine does.
16:46:18 astron: oh wait sorry..
16:46:52 astron: no it still doesnt
16:47:14 alexanderwilms: Do you know the icon names that would be neccessary
16:47:29 alexanderwilms: ?
16:47:30 astron: not really.
16:47:46 alexanderwilms: Hm, maybe we should ask Rafael
16:48:53 astron: ok, so, ill notify you in half an hour or so... then, this should work:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/87946285/libreoffice/install.7z
16:49:15 astron: okay...
16:51:14 astron: i wanted to upload a screenshot of the new option eike added, but now dropbox is busy...
16:51:25 astron: (with the 7z file)
16:51:36 alexanderwilms: I saw it in the release notes for 3.7
16:51:45 alexanderwilms: a text entry, right?
16:52:48 astron: right.
16:52:58 astron: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/87946285/libreoffice/dac-pattns.png
16:53:02 astron: there it is.
16:53:32 alexanderwilms: Does it have a hint text?
16:53:33 astron: i really dont like it. 90% of people will not know what to do with it and it just clogs our options...
16:53:51 astron: not more than what you see.
16:53:59 alexanderwilms: hm
16:54:50 alexanderwilms: But is there another way to specify so many possible combinations?
16:55:13 astron: well, id say, do it in a text file that no one has to look at.
16:55:23 astron: :)
16:56:12 alexanderwilms: maybe the about:config functionality?
16:57:12 astron: or that.
16:58:33 astron: is mirek still working on the options?
16:58:58 alexanderwilms: We continued working on that last IRC
16:59:11 astron: right, yeah...
16:59:19 astron: havent read it all, though.
17:00:43 astron: anyway, we should tell him :)
17:00:55 astron: okay, on to the second esc call...
17:00:59 alexanderwilms: yes
17:02:39 astron: * again, not much from me, but michael asked me/us about feedback on three things:
** the header/footer indicator is now activated via clicking only (not via mouse-over)
** you can now add a gradient to cells
** something about the borders, apparently not the problem that they're too thick.
17:03:30 alexanderwilms: I think the header/footer thing is an issue that bother quite many
17:03:45 alexanderwilms: What should be do wrt the gradient fills?
17:03:53 astron: yes, i think so, too. its probably for the better...
17:04:14 astron: right, we are supposed to judge the gradient fills ui.
17:04:40 astron: so far, its pretty much all consistent with what you can do for shapes though, so...
17:05:01 alexanderwilms: The default gradients are pretty horrible, though
17:05:06 astron: yes.
17:05:24 astron: one other thing that bothers me a bit is that it always colours individual cells
17:06:03 alexanderwilms: It's not possible top stretch a gradient over several cells?
17:06:05 astron: so, you cant have a gradient over the whole page, but you can have gradients that repeat in every cell.
17:06:11 astron: right
17:06:22 astron: at least i found no way of doing that
17:07:05 astron: dunno though how it is in excel, since i have recently reinstalled my windows partition, too and since then havent had mso starter
17:07:41 alexanderwilms: Is that somehow related to color sclaes? http://www.libreoffice.org/assets/Uploads/EN-Project_images/3.6NewFeatures/Calc/_resampled/resizedimage183112-Colorformats.png
17:07:48 astron: no.
17:08:12 alexanderwilms: ah, okay
17:08:16 astron: colour scales were available in 3.6. the gradients are purely for design purposes
17:09:14 astron: but do you share my concern that it might be essential to allow adding a consistent gradient over multiple cells?
17:10:34 alexanderwilms: I'm not sure if it's essential, but when we allow gradients it would be nice not to be resrticted in such a way
17:11:53 astron: okay. what i dont like about it is that it invites incredibly bad design, i.e.: lets put a differently-coloured gradient over every cell.
17:13:05 alexanderwilms: Maybe this would allow us to have really slick spreadsheets like Numbers
17:13:26 alexanderwilms: *like the ones possible with Numbers, I meant
17:13:40 astron: i have never actually used numbers or seen much that was done with it
17:14:34 alexanderwilms: I've only seen some screenshots
17:15:21 astron: ah.
17:16:03 astron: anything in particular that i should take a look at?
17:17:02 alexanderwilms: not really. If you google some pictures you see that they diable the grid in most cases and that they are more visual
17:17:08 alexanderwilms: *disable
17:19:52 alexanderwilms: Anyway, should we proceed?
17:22:33 astron: ha, they have a car called the mars volta... http://www.flickr.com/photos/brajeshwar/1060134420/lightbox/
17:22:41 astron: okay. lets proceed
17:24:22 alexanderwilms: On an unrelated note, how should the spage icons look like?
17:24:32 alexanderwilms: *shape
17:24:36 astron: upload is done now: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/87946285/libreoffice/install.7z
17:24:41 alexanderwilms: great
17:24:44 astron: which shape icon?
17:25:06 alexanderwilms: the one available in draw
17:25:11 alexanderwilms: *ones
17:25:34 alexanderwilms: and in writer and impress if one enables clicks on the brush icon
17:26:03 astron: ah, those... well, ideally, a little less grey but not too exciting either.
17:26:17 alexanderwilms: alright
17:26:27 astron: blue would sound good to me, i e like the rotation icon..?
17:26:56 alexanderwilms: I can try to batch-convert them
17:26:59 astron: have you added a new "arrange" icon?
17:27:20 alexanderwilms: arrange?
17:27:31 alexanderwilms: How does that look like?
17:28:33 astron: its a couple of rectangles atop each other – i.e. like bring to front
17:28:45 alexanderwilms: not yet
17:28:50 astron: (which is one of the arrangement functions available.)
17:28:59 alexanderwilms: I think they should all look similar
17:29:02 astron: right, but i wonder: why is it white?
17:29:10 astron: (at least here)
17:29:26 alexanderwilms: Here it's blue and green
17:29:30 alexanderwilms: an ugly green
17:29:49 astron: yes. thats a holdout from industrial
17:30:04 astron: but in my build, there's also a white version... weird
17:30:20 astron: ah.. its because i switched themes.
17:30:28 alexanderwilms: ok
17:30:35 astron: so, its been there all along.
17:32:42 alexanderwilms: Do you know how to perform Find&replace on a llot of text files at the same time?
17:33:04 astron: notepad++ offered that. jedit too
17:33:12 alexanderwilms: great, thanks
17:33:38 astron: otherwise, you can presumably use sed or somethign
17:33:50 astron: ^gn^ng
17:34:05 alexanderwilms: a cli program?
17:34:11 astron: yes
17:34:35 astron: im still not a command line guru. i guess id need a few years to become that...
17:36:09 astron: so i might have named the wrong software
17:36:27 alexanderwilms: I'll try notepad++
17:38:56 astron: have you gotten my build to work, btw?
17:39:37 alexanderwilms: trying right now
17:39:49 astron: okay
17:41:58 alexanderwilms: /home/alexander/libre/program/oosplash: error while loading shared libraries: libpng14.so.14: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
17:43:13 astron: well ... that... probably means you cant run it. if it cant find whats likely the first external dependency on launch, you can be sure it will find many more.
17:43:14 alexanderwilms: libpng12-dev ist installiert
17:43:46 astron: it only needs libpng12 on runtime, the dev version is only for building
17:44:13 alexanderwilms: package cannot be found
17:44:16 astron: i could try rebuilding without system-cairo and system-pango...
17:44:45 alexanderwilms: what does pango have to do with this?
17:44:45 astron: really? then the name of the normal package must be different. i am sure it is already installed.
17:45:15 astron: i thought that pulls in all the drawing libraries from the system, but i might be wrong.
17:45:27 alexanderwilms: I'll run apt-get install libpng*
17:45:42 alexanderwilms: hm, doesn't help
17:46:46 alexanderwilms: William is trying to build LO so that it runs on Ubuntu and derivatives
17:48:39 astron: "is trying"? surely hes had successful builds before, no?
17:49:04 alexanderwilms: I think he's using arch
17:49:11 alexanderwilms: or gentoo
17:50:18 astron: oh, well, if youre a ubuntu user then thats probably as good as my own build :(
17:51:48 alexanderwilms: "I began to compile all missing/outdated dependencies and manually update them, but it'll be a nightmare for you to do the same.
17:51:50 alexanderwilms: I've thus the idea to link these libraries as static (which will increase compilation size, but I don't care). I'm waiting for a response from others devs how to achieve this."
17:52:54 astron: okay. if theyre statically linked that might help ...
17:53:09 alexanderwilms: I guess
17:54:57 astron: okay.
17:55:11 astron: again, on the topic of icons..
17:55:25 alexanderwilms: yes?
17:55:47 astron: there's something wrong with the spellcheck icons.
17:55:56 astron: they look really odd.
17:56:38 astron: i mean, the text was barely readable in the upstream versions of these icons, but now its worse.
17:58:34 alexanderwilms: The upstream ones contained bitmaps within the original SVG
17:58:58 alexanderwilms: probably each pixel was optimized by hand
17:59:21 alexanderwilms: I tried to improve it but apparently it didn't quite work out
18:00:25 alexanderwilms: Probably better if we use the bitmaps directly
18:00:35 astron: maybe
18:00:48 alexanderwilms: or less characters
18:01:09 astron: upstream use only "Ab" for the smaller ones...
18:02:01 astron: anyway, that seems to be an option
18:08:25 alexanderwilms: So, what's next?
18:09:14 astron: hm... there seem to be a few icons that come out of humanity... is that right?
18:09:59 alexanderwilms: Which ones for example?
18:10:26 alexanderwilms: Humanity is the old gnome icon theme adapted for Ubuntu?
18:11:28 astron: the drwaing toolbar icon, the diagram icon and the navigator icon
18:12:13 alexanderwilms: well, they probably weren't in the original gnome theme
18:12:14 astron: also, the theme you are referring to is called just "human" which is confusing ... but doesnt matter
18:13:23 astron: where do these icons come from then?
18:14:07 alexanderwilms: Didn't Jakub create the early Tango icons for OpenOffice?
18:16:04 astron: i think were misunderstanding each other.
18:16:31 astron: i was talking about the new versions of those icons that are in tango testing
18:16:41 alexanderwilms: Ah
18:16:55 alexanderwilms: The navigator icon is from Gnome git
18:16:59 alexanderwilms: the other ones were created by me
18:19:00 astron: oh. okay. they looked foreign to me. sorry.
18:20:39 astron: although, why did you rework the diagram icon so much then? i actually liked the old version (except for the percent sign...)
18:21:42 alexanderwilms: I wanted to remove the percent sign, use the same segments as the ods icons in the gnome theme and use as many pixels as possible
18:22:25 astron: okay.
18:26:22 astron: does that mean you used the branding colours or did you use tango colours?
18:28:08 alexanderwilms: I just chose colors that seemed to fit
18:28:43 alexanderwilms: The tango palette lacks really vibrant colors IMHO
18:30:06 astron: you should try to stick with the palette. that's what it's for...
18:30:47 astron: (of course you can add white highlights and black shades etc... but in general try to keep close to it.)
18:30:55 alexanderwilms: okay
18:31:08 alexanderwilms: I'll update them
18:31:36 astron: (note also: the old charts icon looked more vibrant on my monitor than the new one.)
18:32:31 alexanderwilms: I probably also used too much highlights
18:33:24 astron: not sure. that seems fine to me...
18:40:31 alexanderwilms: I'll update the masterpage icons, too
18:40:45 alexanderwilms: to see whether the desaturated blue looks good
18:41:41 astron: okay.
18:42:24 astron: actually, are you interested in doing the icon for impress remote?
18:43:22 alexanderwilms: the one used in LibO?
18:44:29 astron: no. for the android app
18:44:53 astron: (as michael said during the call three weeks ago)
18:46:15 alexanderwilms: I could try working on that
18:47:03 alexanderwilms: Are the ones used in the mockup basically ok?
18:47:09 alexanderwilms: only redo them?
18:47:37 astron: hm, what i mean is the actual app icon
18:47:52 alexanderwilms: Ah, ok
18:48:27 alexanderwilms: What should it look like, though?
18:49:23 astron: I would have thought about the impress icon and superimposed some sort of black boxy remote with two huge buttons... but... thats only in my mind right now.
18:50:07 alexanderwilms: I tried something like that when we were still designing the mockup and it didn't look that good
18:50:33 alexanderwilms: Maybe it turns out better this time
18:50:40 astron: okay.
18:51:07 astron: btw, there already is something called impress remote on the play store: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.steppschuh.impressremote
18:52:45 alexanderwilms: using gnome icons in a commercial app?
18:53:07 alexanderwilms: I think the icon isn't that good
18:55:42 alexanderwilms: Maybe the impress icon + those wlan 'waves'?
18:55:59 astron: that sounds like a good idea.
18:57:41 alexanderwilms: using the tilted 3d style?
18:57:56 alexanderwilms: The one presented in the Android design guidelines
18:58:08 astron: i wouldn't tilt it very much, just a little, like the messages app
18:59:56 astron: but in any case: these are just ideas. do whatever you find looks best.
19:00:19 alexanderwilms: okay
19:01:53 astron: i am actually trying to install the apk from andrzej now... see what it looks like...
19:02:32 alexanderwilms: good
19:02:59 astron: here's another idea: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.pptremotecontrol.android.presenter
19:03:13 astron: dont know if it soo good, but interstign
19:05:06 alexanderwilms: maybe harder to recognize at lower resolutions
19:06:09 alexanderwilms: Something else: Do you think Open Sans looks better than Liberation Sans at small sizes?
19:09:21 astron: my opinion is that i dont like liberation sans at all...
about the actual question... i think both are about equally clear
19:11:06 alexanderwilms: http://ubuntuone.com/4YJ2H7VRHSIgzQzMZ82urr
19:12:01 alexanderwilms: That's a document using default styles, but I swapped Liberation (Serif/Sans) to Open Sans
19:13:05 alexanderwilms: I think it'd be great if we could at least make this move as it supports so many weights.
19:13:15 alexanderwilms: Especially Light
19:13:54 astron: yeah
19:14:54 alexanderwilms: I noticed that even here headings 6 -10 are smaller than text body
19:15:03 astron: yes.
19:15:18 astron: of course, depending on the size of the largest headline
19:16:16 alexanderwilms: heading?
19:16:41 alexanderwilms: Heading 1 style showed percentages
19:16:54 astron: yes, heading, i mean
19:16:56 alexanderwilms: the other ones pt values
19:17:12 alexanderwilms: ah, no
19:17:55 alexanderwilms: hm, Heading 3 is an exception then
19:18:32 astron: it shouldnt be
19:19:09 alexanderwilms: Could you try it with a new document?
19:20:57 astron: i see the same bug – for heading 2 and 3
19:21:16 alexanderwilms: same here
19:21:20 alexanderwilms: missed h2
19:22:15 alexanderwilms: these are hard coded right?
19:22:16 astron: its also already in 3.5
19:22:21 astron: likely
19:25:17 alexanderwilms: Maybe we could contact Cedric
19:25:22 astron: not sure where though.
19:25:41 astron: yes, do contact cedric
19:26:19 alexanderwilms: Does it make sense to fix the hardcoded stuff?
19:27:13 alexanderwilms: Or rather load an empty document like he suggested for 3.6?
19:28:15 astron: i think fixing whats hardcoded is necessary anyway, otherwise wre just papering over the bug
19:28:55 alexanderwilms: ok
19:30:24 astron: sorry. i restarted gnome shell and that did some evil apparently
19:35:16 alexanderwilms: had issues with my WM, too
19:35:19 alexanderwilms: sry
19:35:33 alexanderwilms: :|
19:35:59 alexanderwilms: So who should mail cedric?
19:36:37 astron: well, you noticed the bug :)
19:36:44 alexanderwilms: okay :)
19:38:41 astron: okay. shall we end the chat for today?
19:38:59 astron: or is there something else youd like to discuss
19:39:31 alexanderwilms: I don't think so
19:40:14 astron: okay. then good night...
19:40:18 alexanderwilms: Thanks and have a nice weekend