Design/Meetings/2012-10-13

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    Attendees

    • Mirek
    • Astron
    • usr_share

    Topics

    • ESC call
    • LibreOffice Conference presentations
    • Fonts to bundle

    Tasks

    • Astron: streamline own presentation
    • All: tell devs about consensus on fonts to ship (basic packages of Source Code, Source Sans, PT Serif and Open Sans)

    Log

    16:04:22 astron: hi there
16:07:00 mirek2: hi
16:07:25 mirek2: there have been a ton of ESC calls between now and the last meeting
16:07:32 mirek2: anything important that I've missed?
16:07:34 astron: woaw yes.
16:07:55 astron: okay ... first thing, not from the esc meetings:
16:07:55 mirek2: how are fonts going along, for example?
16:08:04 mirek2: go ahead
16:08:31 astron: right, id like to make you aware of a bug once i find it.
16:08:50 astron: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=50506
16:09:12 astron: maybe you can discuss the options with kendy concerning this: )
16:10:15 mirek2: alright
16:10:21 astron: wait a sec phone
16:13:23 astron: okay, obviously, this does not have highest ever importance but its part of the UI reshuffling fallout ... so... i thought id tell you
16:13:46 astron: next, you said discussing fonts... yes, we should definitely finish this today.
16:14:24 astron: and ill look what we have in the esc meeting notes from the last couple weeks
16:17:04 astron: we had the impress buttons affair (which you definitely noticed)
16:18:47 mirek2: yes
16:19:06 mirek2: not sure if that was resolved yet
16:19:15 mirek2: I think so far the buttons have just been removed
16:20:28 astron: right
16:23:08 astron: im still kind of wary of your toolbar idea, as the same idea also has to work when in slide sorter mode (arguably the slide sidebar is more, but ... i guess lots of people also use the sorter
16:23:10 astron: )
16:23:34 mirek2: there's a simple fix for that that I meant to reply with
16:23:38 astron: ive also checked: the bottom toolbars are turned off completely as  soon as the sorter is on
16:23:52 astron: okay?
16:24:04 astron: sound good ..
16:24:08 mirek2: yes -- just have the same toolbar, only at the top of the window
16:25:10 mirek2: instead of the weird slide sorter toolbar with two buttons
16:25:28 mirek2: (is the "select" button good for anything, btw?)
16:26:21 astron: select button? what do you mean?
16:26:33 mirek2: go into slide sorter view
16:26:41 mirek2: the select button is the one with the arrow
16:26:49 mirek2: it's always activated
16:26:56 mirek2: I'm not sure what it's for
16:27:34 astron: oh, i have no idea. looks useless (preliminarily)
16:28:41 astron: also, i cant deactivate that...
16:29:02 mirek2: yeah, me neither
16:33:18 mirek2: anything else from the calls?
16:33:30 astron: right ... sorry
16:35:48 astron: otherwise, markus has done a lot of things for the conditional formatting dialogue, caolan has landed the glade import on master, people discuss whether to do a 3.5.8
16:36:25 astron: we need to get to grips concerning the impress remote icon too, somehow
16:36:26 astron: ...
16:36:42 astron: well, lots of stuff left over: (
16:37:52 mirek2: concerning the icon -- we should probably do a whiteboard for it, no?
16:39:05 mirek2: I'm not sure how far Alex is with his take, but it's probably best to design in the open
16:40:38 mirek2: have you heard from Alex recently, btw?
16:40:41 astron: i dont know either, alex currently has no web access until monday (at home).
16:40:49 mirek2: alright
16:40:50 astron: yes, we skyped yesterday.
16:41:03 astron: he will sadly not be able to come to the conference
16:41:04 mirek2: ok
16:41:20 mirek2: are you still doing a talk?
16:42:04 astron: yes.
16:42:33 mirek2: ok, good
16:42:40 astron: we collected topics yesterday. i guess it would be good not to have too much overlap between our talks, so i just shared it with you on google docs
16:43:06 astron: maybe you can mark stuff that you want to talk about already with another colour
16:43:34 mirek2: I think I sent you a draft of my presentation
16:43:45 mirek2: mostly about the process and the principles
16:43:48 astron: oh ... ill have a look at my mail account then
16:45:13 astron: could you tell me the subject
16:45:16 mirek2: I've also removed the GSoC projects part of the presentation, so all of that is yours
16:45:16 astron: please?
16:45:28 astron: thanks for that.
16:46:06 mirek2: hold on -- I'll send you a link directly
16:46:18 astron: good
16:46:35 mirek2: http://ubuntuone.com/0LcFbaOXbcIqi5k035Dgfz
16:47:42 mirek2: I also talk about whiteboards
16:48:04 mirek2: and G+ and UserWeave is fit under "user research"
16:48:26 mirek2: (no slides for that, I'll just mention it briefly)
16:49:01 mirek2: couple of notes for your points:
16:49:18 astron: okay
16:49:29 mirek2: the "how we work" section seems to be kind of duplicative to what I have
16:49:51 mirek2: (it's ok if you keep it, just know that it's going to be covered and you don't have to cover it)
16:50:29 mirek2: what is ahead -- Windows 8?
16:50:42 mirek2: I don't think we were planning anything with that
16:50:52 mirek2: what exactly did you mean with that point?
16:50:59 astron: right, but we should, no?
16:51:20 mirek2: do what?
16:52:02 mirek2: we can't rewrite LibreOffice for Metro UI, not even MS would do that with Office for this release
16:52:07 astron: try not to look completely out of place in metro^Wwin 8 environments
16:52:24 mirek2: I don't think we look completely out of place
16:52:35 mirek2: I think the new toolbar gradient makes it fit in
16:52:36 astron: of course, youre right there, but ms did make some visual adjustments
16:52:39 usr_share: would an office2013-like approach fit?
16:52:57 mirek2: what is that?
16:52:57 astron: btw: i really like your slide design
16:53:03 mirek2: :) thanks
16:53:16 mirek2: (I hope you're viewing it with Vegur)
16:53:25 usr_share: (they pretty much removed nearly all the gradients from the UI)
16:53:36 mirek2: yes, I know
16:53:44 mirek2: we can't really afford to do that with icons
16:54:05 mirek2: (we haven't even been able to produce a single consistent icon set yet)
16:54:40 mirek2: and the new toolbar gradient is subtle enough to work well with both old Windows and Windows 8, IMHO
16:55:18 mirek2: I think pure white might be too drastic
16:55:24 mirek2: but who knows...
16:56:10 usr_share: btw, I apologize about my intervention (and not being a professional UI/UX designer)
16:56:20 mirek2: none of us are
16:56:24 usr_share: but I was thinking about WHY MS decided to go with a new UI for Office 2007
16:56:36 usr_share: and while I agree the implementation sucks, the idea is actually quite good
16:56:50 mirek2: it's good that you're trying to take initiative: )
16:56:55 mirek2: everyone's welcome
16:56:56 usr_share: and it wouldn't be hard to create a less-radical, still WIMPy LibreOffice version of it.
16:57:23 usr_share: which (I guess) would both make LibreOffice easier to use for new users and as powerful for the pros.
16:57:23 mirek2: we've had the Ribbon conversation before
16:57:29 mirek2: there are several factors to it:
16:57:40 mirek2: a) the Ribbon is patented
16:57:54 mirek2: b) it would be a drastic, drastic change that we don't have resources for
16:58:24 mirek2: c) we need to take into account all the various platforms, so toolbars are a preferrable option
16:59:09 usr_share: actually, I thought of a far-less drastic change which would not fall under any of MS' patents
16:59:11 mirek2: d) we shouldn't blindly adopt something, even if it works well for the competitor; rather, we should figure out our own weaknesses and fix them
16:59:16 usr_share: and work on all the platforms currently supported.
16:59:42 usr_share: the point is -- MS decided to bring *all* the actions the user can do into context.
16:59:55 mirek2: what I'm saying is -- we don't want to develop a new UI just for the sake of having a new UI
17:00:07 usr_share: ahem -- this is no "new UI".
17:00:08 mirek2: we want to design to solve problems
17:00:22 usr_share: just a slight change in how menus would work.
17:00:35 mirek2: go ahead
17:01:38 mirek2: (btw, this change shouldn't be drastic -- it still needs to work with e.g. the macOS menu and with Ubuntu's Unity menus)
17:02:17 usr_share: I'm pretty sure it would, as the modifications required will not change the widgets themselves
17:02:30 usr_share: for an example, let's look at the "Table" menu.
17:02:30 mirek2: ok, go ahead and describe: )
17:02:35 usr_share: http://i.imgur.com/jZPW4.gif
17:02:57 usr_share: on the left is a default menu, as it is. on the right is the one with only the options available without a table selected
17:03:24 astron: okay, right, the "hiding whats  not necessary" approach?
17:03:28 usr_share: what MS did is made the options absent on the right only available in a separate tab *if a table is selected*
17:04:02 usr_share: and I think it wouldn't be a bad idea if the same thing would happen in LO, with the "Table" menu only visible with a table selected.
17:04:19 astron: i think mireks ideas go in that direction too
17:04:22 usr_share: the image/object editing points would be visible in an "Object" menu, and so on...
17:04:28 usr_share: once again, I apologize.
17:04:29 mirek2: yes
17:04:37 mirek2: there's nothing to apologize for
17:04:38 mirek2: at all
17:04:51 mirek2: really -- this is an open arena, all ideas welcome
17:05:09 mirek2: I like your ideas, but I'm not sure if they're technically feasible
17:05:22 mirek2: I will ask at the upcoming conference
17:05:29 mirek2: usr_share: are you attending, btw?
17:05:47 astron: (libreoffice conference, berlin, next week)
17:05:51 usr_share: no: (
17:06:04 mirek2: ok, I was just wondering
17:06:19 mirek2: the talks will be taped, so you'll (hopefully) be able to catch them online
17:06:22 usr_share: about feasibility -- it's the same thing as with the toolbars in MSO, OOo and LO since who-knows-when
17:06:36 astron: right
17:07:18 astron: one of the problems with this approach is that people occasionally might not be able to explain why suddenly there is an new menu item available
17:08:01 mirek2: I think it would be self-explanatory -- a user selects a table, the table menu appears; he deselects it, it disappears
17:08:03 astron: with our current menus you can more or less guarantee that the item is going to be there, people can explore beforehand etc.
17:08:08 usr_share: astron: that's why modifications are kept to a minimum. Only new menus, the items are always the same.
17:08:19 astron: ah okay
17:08:58 astron: btw: have you both seen this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctLfh7TpTOM&feature=plcp ?
17:09:33 mirek2: I've seen it, yes
17:09:46 mirek2: personally, I don't like it
17:09:51 astron: i was asked to comment on it at the esc call ... and coudlnt say much except that its like a ribbon with backwards ui hierarchy
17:10:33 usr_share: I'd say so, too.
17:10:41 mirek2: yes, it is
17:10:55 usr_share: Ribbon as it is has a backwards efficiency curve as it is
17:11:03 usr_share: cloning it would only make it worse
17:11:24 mirek2: yes, I agree
17:12:05 mirek2: in any case, I would like to keep this "UI revolution" stuff for the conference
17:12:09 astron: what i mean by "backwards ui hierarchy" btw is that the categories (i.e.  edit, tools ...) are below the tools themselves, which seems wrong to me
17:12:25 mirek2: yes
17:12:33 astron: are oyu gonna be there on tuesday already?
17:12:49 usr_share: well, the point is -- this (the context-dependent menu stuff) is the same idea MS did, except evolutionally rather than revolutionally ;)
17:12:53 mirek2: anyway, usr_share, I will try to talk about your proposal with people at the conference
17:13:04 usr_share: thanks and good luck.
17:13:14 mirek2: astron: yes
17:13:21 astron: mirek2: cool!
17:13:25 usr_share: (I expected worse)
17:13:29 mirek2: you too?
17:13:36 astron: yes
17:13:49 astron: usr_share: we dont bite :)
17:14:25 mirek2: usr_share: do we really seem that uncooperative? maybe you could help us reword our wiki or our G+ to be more welcoming
17:14:35 mirek2: how did you hear about this talk, btw?
17:14:44 mirek2: this chat, I mean
17:14:51 usr_share: libreoffice.org -> get involved -> ux -> a short wiki walk
17:15:09 usr_share: this idea I just had in my head for a while and thought of presenting
17:15:30 astron: ah, yeah, the libreoffice homepage is not always that efficient
17:15:56 mirek2: if you have any reservations about the way the wiki is written/structured, feel free to share
17:16:07 mirek2: was there anything confusing along the way?
17:16:22 usr_share: not anything on the website...
17:16:38 mirek2: (sorry if I seem too prying, I'm just wondering if there's something we could do to engage more or get more volunteers)
17:16:45 usr_share: the more confusing was the idea of the "icon survey"
17:17:02 astron: well, i dont really know if the wall of text here helps: https://www.libreoffice.org/get-involved/
17:17:21 usr_share: I don't think having to recognize an icon out of different icons, all used in LO itself, is a good idea
17:17:45 usr_share: I'd say it would be a nice idea to introduce some "fake" icons (that is, similar in style, yet used nowhere in LO)
17:17:50 astron: well, youll have to ask björn about that, he made the survey
17:18:02 mirek2: yes, I agree
17:18:07 astron: nice idea.
17:18:25 mirek2: usr_share: are you on the mailing list?
17:18:29 astron: luckily, björn will be there on tuesday and wednesday morning
17:18:33 usr_share: nope
17:18:50 usr_share: I said -- I'm just a lurker here who wanted to get his idea heard
17:19:03 astron: we also have many lurkers on the list.
17:19:46 astron: so, youd probably fit in too
17:20:13 mirek2: also, don't think you have to be a professional designer/UX engineer
17:20:19 mirek2: complete noobs are welcome
17:20:49 mirek2: and if you don't want to design yourself, there's always feedback you can provide
17:21:11 usr_share: astron: just out of interest, how did you type an ö? AltGr+P? Compose+"+O? A non-english layout?
17:21:13 mirek2: (we really don't get enough of it)
17:21:59 astron: usr_share: öi have no idea.
17:22:06 usr_share: :)
17:22:34 astron: im using a german keyboard setting. if i dont i usually try find some email that contains the letter
17:23:23 mirek2: on a Czech qwerty keyboard under Ubuntu, it's alt gr+shift+key to the right of 0 + o
17:24:21 astron: if youre using gnome/unity, you can get a keyboard map from system settings → keyboard
17:25:13 mirek2: (I was just about to say that)
17:25:35 astron: anyway... should we go on and talk about fonts?
17:25:52 astron: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Wishlists/Fonts
17:25:57 mirek2: I would like to continue talking about your presentation, if you don't mind
17:26:12 mirek2: back to Windows 8-integration
17:26:20 astron: okay.
17:26:32 mirek2: how exactly would you tweak LibO?
17:27:33 astron: well, most of desktop win 8 has this incredibly flat toy-like look, native win 8 looks less toy-like, but still flat...
17:28:17 astron: so, im inclined to say remove the toolbar gradient completely
17:29:00 usr_share: oh, talking about fonts -- I read the last log
17:29:11 usr_share: and I am strongly for inclusion of the PT Sans / PT Serif fonts
17:29:12 mirek2: and keep pure white?
17:29:12 astron: i have so far not run libreoffice under win 8 (well, once, when the desktop still looked like win 7) and thus cant see if we need more widget integration too
17:29:40 astron: right, pure white or maybe something like #EEE
17:29:55 astron: (if that is not too dark already
17:29:56 astron: )
17:30:13 mirek2: is there a reason why we shouldn't do the same for all Windows versions?
17:30:33 mirek2: I mean, if it looks good, why not have it on all of them
17:30:47 astron: all versions of windows have a slightly different feel and look too (where the second is not so important)
17:31:02 usr_share: maybe, whenever the toolbarred area of the window would cover a piece of the document
17:31:16 usr_share: make the toolbars 80% transparent with a slight blur behind?
17:31:23 astron: right, but software that looks great under gnome usually doesnt look good on windows. even if it looks exactly the same
17:31:35 usr_share: it will make it look not as boring
17:31:38 astron: usr_share: we hade this can of worms open before
17:31:53 mirek2: well, on Windows, it's always a mix of design
17:32:02 astron: it wasnt boring, rather a bit aggravating to most people
17:32:23 mirek2: Office 2013 will look the same on each Windows version
17:32:27 astron: mirek2: sure, but people still notice that eg itunes looks terrible
17:32:28 usr_share: well, I'm out of this discussion (not of this channel), as my good ideas ended a while ago
17:32:47 mirek2: and we never adopted LibO for the Fisher Price-looking XP design
17:32:51 astron: usr_share: ill find a screenshot
17:33:51 astron: astron: well, i wonder how many users actually accepted that. until vista came out, i always used the win classic theme
17:34:34 usr_share: *ashamed* I even used the XP theme (a custom one) on a Windows 7 box once: (
17:35:15 astron: usr_share: no need to be ashamed. our preferences just vary.
17:35:44 astron: sorry if offended you there
17:37:48 astron: usr_share: sorry cant find a screenhot of libreoffice with a transparent menu bar right now. you can download 3.6 beta 2 or so if you want to see it in action
17:39:59 astron: in any case, while platform integration certainly is not so important to many windows developers (and maybe sometimes downright impossible), i do think, we can fit a bit better into a "flattened" OS
17:40:17 astron: a big part of that might (unfortunately) be icons...
17:40:35 astron: i think even ms's new icons leave a lot to be desired, actually
17:41:06 mirek2: ok, we'll see what we can do, but I wouldn't want to devote much time to Windows
17:41:31 mirek2: I would prefer to have one single top-notch icon set
17:42:25 astron: right, thats why i said unfortunately
17:43:40 astron: actually, looking at some screenshots, i must say ms's icons are not so bad and actually keep quite a bit of colour
17:43:42 mirek2: honestly, Windows is such a mixed bag of designs (even by default, it's two completely different UIs) that I don't think we need to work that much to fit with Metro
17:44:25 usr_share: I'd say Linux DEs have a way better app integration (on average), except I'd probably list a few problems, too
17:44:46 mirek2: yes
17:45:17 usr_share: for example, I haven't yet seen a WM that allows to, say, introduce a button into the title bar without having to create a borderless window and draw a custom title bar like Chrome does
17:45:44 mirek2: yes
17:45:53 usr_share: or otherwise give applications control over their window decorations
17:47:30 astron: usr_share: "on average" ... well, from what i use daily theres:
* gtk 3 (native, because im using gnome)
* gtk 2 – finally looking okay again with gnome 3.6
* qt 4 – finally looking okay as a consequence of gtk 2 looking okay
* java/swing – ugh ugh ...
* proprietary qt 4 (like skype) – ugh
17:49:18 usr_share: and on the windows boxes I've seen it's: Skype (--), MSO 2007 (- when not on Vista/7), Adobe Photoshop (-- for introducing a radically different theme), QIP (-)...
17:50:15 usr_share: the developers seem a bit too used to drawing whatever they like
17:50:22 astron: the worst offender i know on windows probably is ms's windows defender
17:50:36 usr_share: oh, the anti-viral programs
17:50:42 usr_share: the worst offenders in general
17:51:23 astron: windows defender draws huuge tabs that have their labels somewhere in the bottom ... i digress
17:52:04 astron: still, somehow all this software (well, maybe not so much the adobe products) fit into this OS
17:52:17 mirek2: anyway, I would probably leave out Windows 8 out of the presentation, since it's not really something we plan to do in the near future
17:52:42 astron: okay. probably better that way
17:53:23 mirek2: I'm not sure you need a "where we failed" category
17:53:34 mirek2: maybe just mention how our workflow has evolved
17:54:09 mirek2: also, there are things that we could've done better with GSoC projects
17:54:44 astron: mirek: that one should be rather short, and hopefully underline the fact that we need more peopler
17:54:47 mirek2: we designed, but then we didn't connect with the developers afterwards
17:55:40 astron: right, that was a pretty big problem, because both the devs and the student s spent their whole days on the project while we were still volunteering only
17:56:13 mirek2: yes, but I think next time we should make sure to keep in contact
17:56:18 mirek2: and follow progress closely
17:56:19 astron: we could have something like "talk to a designer on irc" hour..?
17:56:42 mirek2: yeah
17:57:08 mirek2: or we could have just invited them to this chat and covered their work when they showed up
17:57:13 usr_share: I guess something just like now, except with a more global approach
17:57:30 astron: well, the problem with this chat is that it is on saturday
17:57:49 astron: (where the working population does not work)
17:57:55 mirek2: I think that's a benefit
17:58:02 mirek2: since it works pretty well for all timezones
17:58:23 astron: to you and i maybe, but not to developers who get paid for doing libreoffice
17:58:36 mirek2: whereas on weekdays there's only a pretty small range when people have time
17:58:37 astron: and who do other things in their spare time
17:59:15 mirek2: ok, so next time we should work a time to discuss with each developer individually, depending on how it suits them
17:59:22 mirek2: and on how it suits designers, of course
18:00:36 astron: if we have one designer per project and we could say, hey, were here to help – might be a good approach
18:01:14 mirek2: I would prefer to keep all the interested designers involved
18:01:26 mirek2: as we don't always agree on things
18:01:43 astron: sure, but we should have one who takes responsibility
18:02:24 astron: oh wait ... i had this argument with you before and you disagreed: )
18:02:32 astron: dang it
18:02:40 mirek2: :)
18:03:40 astron: but really not having one person whos responsible means youll have a lot of fingerpointing at the end.
18:03:55 astron: (if anyone ever cares)
18:04:22 mirek2: we'll discuss it later, when it's relevant, ok?
18:04:48 astron: what do you mean by "when its relevant"?
18:05:43 mirek2: when we have projects that require leadership
18:06:09 astron: dont we always have that?
18:06:29 mirek2: basically, what I'm afraid might happen if we have leaders for projects is a dictatorship rather than a meritocracy
18:07:51 mirek2: I don't want ideas getting turned down because they don't suit the leader, I want them turned down because e.g. they don't comply with our principles or there's not enough development power or there's some other legitimate reason
18:08:36 astron: but our principles are made by our leader(s) too, right? weve chosen them etc
18:09:37 astron: so, in a way we already do that and of course we should try not to be too dogmatic on the leadership thing
18:10:36 mirek2: we've chosen them together, and they're based on Mozilla's intesive work, and those in turn are based on work by Cooper, Nielsen, and Norman
18:10:55 mirek2: who have devoted their lives to UX research and have written multiple books on the topic
18:11:18 mirek2: so I'd say there's a firm base for them
18:11:42 astron: and still, we chose them as three people (alex, you and i), not as a hundred people.
18:12:32 mirek2: well, everyone was welcome to voice his opinion, we did it openly, and if we find any logical inconsistencies, we're open to changing them
18:12:32 astron: also, they conflict with each other and are not objective (i hope we dont have to dicuss that now)
18:12:50 mirek2: I would draw a comparison to the US constitution, which provides a firm base for all US laws
18:13:05 mirek2: astron: I beg to differ
18:13:14 mirek2: anyway, I'll talk about it in my presentation
18:13:22 astron: hehe
18:13:34 mirek2: they really don't conflict with each other much, though it may seem that way
18:14:11 mirek2: (except consistency, which can conflict with any principle as long as others break principles)
18:14:35 astron: okay. i guess we'll want to discuss something more productive, right?
18:14:53 mirek2: yes
18:15:10 astron: fonts? or any more points on the presentation=
18:16:15 usr_share: oh, also wanted to ask
18:16:21 mirek2: go ahead
18:16:25 usr_share: if a font is available in the OS and LO at the same time
18:16:34 usr_share: oh, sorry
18:16:35 usr_share: forgot.
18:16:46 usr_share: LO fonts are installed into the system as normal: )
18:16:53 astron: yes.
18:17:22 usr_share: I was just thinking about a situation where a new version of an included font comes out
18:17:31 usr_share: and comes into a repository of the OS
18:18:32 usr_share: how easy would it be for an average user to make LO use the new font rather than the old one? (if, say, different filenames are used)
18:18:38 usr_share: (for some reason)
18:18:40 astron: im not too sure what we do then, under linux of course, the fonts are not packaged into libo itself
18:19:19 astron: (ie libo is using the systems font packages and fonts that are shipped on win and mac may or may not be installed)
18:19:50 astron: on windows & mac, i hope the os sorts it out if both fonts bear the same name
18:21:03 astron: anyway...
18:21:12 astron: we stopped at roboto, right?
18:21:42 mirek2: yes
18:21:53 mirek2: and we should also discuss ubuntu
18:22:20 mirek2: anyway, if you don't like Roboto, I guess we don't have to ship it
18:22:33 mirek2: I've had a change of heart
18:22:56 mirek2: also, if there are problems with Ubuntu, as you said there are, I don't think we should ship it
18:23:00 astron: i like roboto on android (and i use it for gmail here) ... but i wouldnt want it as a bundled font
18:23:35 mirek2: ok
18:24:19 astron: well, apparently the only reason why the ubuntu font is not yet shipped with openSUSE (eg, but thats the example i know) is that the license is still undergoing review
18:24:41 mirek2: ok, then let's not ship it
18:24:59 mirek2: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Wishlists/Fonts -- wow, someone added a lot of fonts to the list
18:25:06 astron: the other thing of course is size restrictions and we probably want stay well below 5 mb
18:25:14 astron: right gerry t added lots
18:26:34 astron: the good thing about those is that they can do a lot with the graphite engine (ie opentype-like features, but apparently freer software accompanying it and better specced)... the bad is that theyre only useful from within libo
18:26:47 mirek2: how big are the fonts we've chosen so far?
18:26:49 astron: (and maybe other graphite enabled software)
18:27:19 astron: opensans alone (unpacked) is ~2.2mb
18:27:40 astron: sorry, will be unavailable for ~30 mins....
18:39:35 usr_share: well, gotta go too
18:39:38 usr_share: bye
19:01:48 astron: on again :(
19:06:59 mirek2: astron: post when you're back
19:13:33 astron: hi
19:13:48 astron: glad youre here again
19:15:04 astron: mirek2: im back ... now i am looking like an obsessive ... whatever
19:15:28 mirek2: ok, imbacktoo
19:15:49 astron: good. i have some food in my stomach now.
19:16:47 astron: i ve just tried downloading one of the graphite-enabled fonts and apparently those are just ordinary ttfs, just with some extra graphite features.
19:18:00 mirek2: I'm a bit skeptical, as I've never heard of those fonts
19:19:43 astron: sil is the (christian) summer institute for languages that makes international fonts (often because they want to use them to set a bible in a certain language, afaik) and it is also the institution that has created gentium and the ofl
19:20:29 astron: so, these fonts are usually high-quality
19:21:06 mirek2: I would also prefer to stick to fonts on google.com/webfonts, given that we want to integrate with it
19:21:21 mirek2: but it's not a necessity
19:21:35 astron: i dont really understand that argument, as whatevers on a users disk is there, not on google web fonts
19:21:56 mirek2: what I meant is, I've heard of various floss fonts, often praised for their quality: Roboto, Ubuntu, Lato, Source Sans, Open Sans, Arvo, ...
19:23:11 astron: oh okay. interestingly (except for arvo) theyre all sans-serifs...
19:23:17 mirek2:  I mean that if that font is not installed on someone's computer (say a distro ships LibO without the default fonts or in a future release we decide not to ship a font), we can find and download the font from Google Web Fonts
19:24:18 astron: right. but it would be good if we could try to have all major distros ship them ... that would allow somethign like ms's web-safe fonts allowed since the nineties
19:24:58 astron: but, youre thinking more practical here i guess
19:25:03 mirek2:  sure, but it still doesn't cover the scenario when we decide to replace/drop a default font
19:25:36 astron: we never do
19:25:41 astron: ;)
19:25:50 astron: youre right
19:26:18 astron: anyway, i can find genitum and andika on google
19:26:41 mirek2: but we may, since we're concerned with disk space
19:26:50 astron: no others.
19:27:36 astron: mirek2: thats why i said "youre right". sorry my line of thought doesnt come across here at all. i blame the medium of chat
19:28:16 mirek2: no, that's my fault -- I posted before I read your response
19:28:49 astron: okay then.
19:29:17 mirek2: anyway, if we need to keep to ~ 5 MB, let's compare font sizes
19:29:38 mirek2: Source Sans is 2.6 MB
19:30:06 astron: okay, if we just pick regular/italic/semibold/semibold italic from open sans, we get to 864 KB
19:31:18 astron: (the bold one can be a bit too bold) (also, i suggest we pick only the four most important weights/styles, since libreoffice handles that best anyway)
19:32:16 mirek2: okay
19:32:40 mirek2: then we need to figure out how to present the weights that are installed for a font
19:32:54 mirek2: once we're working on font installation for the font repository integration whiteboard
19:33:16 astron: ah ... does that exist already?
19:33:55 mirek2: font installation, not yet
19:34:17 mirek2: the repository whiteboard has been up for a while, though - https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Font_Repository_Integration
19:34:27 mirek2: we've talked about it last IRC chat
19:34:39 astron: right, i remember now
19:34:43 astron: getting old
19:38:17 mirek2: anyway, about fonts...
19:38:53 mirek2: Gentium seems ok, Andika as well
19:39:13 astron: well, the good news is we already ship gentium
19:39:21 astron: (maybe not gentium plus)
19:39:26 mirek2: true
19:39:41 astron: andika seems a bit cutesy to me.
19:39:41 mirek2: well, gentium plus isn't on webfonts, so I'd prefer to stick to what we ship
19:40:21 astron: andika reminds of corbel...
19:40:27 mirek2: ok... I don't really have much of an opinion of it
19:41:18 astron: okay, lets add it to the list of fonts, wed like to ship (but probably wont)
19:41:32 mirek2: I would say Source Sans and Open Sans are a must
19:41:50 mirek2: Vollkorn is good as well
19:42:10 mirek2: but we decided against it, whoops
19:43:15 astron: what do you think of charis?
19:44:35 mirek2: It's not on webfonts, so I would be against it
19:45:04 astron: too bad ... i really like the font
19:47:15 mirek2: btw, do we really want to ship with pt mono?
19:47:29 mirek2: and, if so, perhaps we should consider source code...
19:47:43 astron: i agree, pt mono really is not that nice
19:48:18 mirek2: btw, do we have a mono font?
19:48:29 mirek2: to compete with Courier?
19:48:31 astron: lemme see
19:48:45 astron: but yeah, we do have liberation sans mono
19:48:53 mirek2: yeah, of course
19:49:06 mirek2: ok, I guess it's good enough
19:50:11 mirek2: ok, then we have open sans, source sans, pt sans, pt serif, and maybe andika
19:50:22 astron: droid sans mono would seemingly make for a good addition too, given how well it fits in with open sans
19:50:45 astron: we should probably cut pt sans, too
19:51:16 mirek2: but droid sans has just one style
19:51:38 mirek2: source code would be better (6 styles)
19:52:10 mirek2: it's really impressive for a mono font to have so many weights
19:52:33 astron: sure. no idea what adobe want to do with it: )
19:53:07 astron: the thing with droid is that google cut everythign that wouldnt fit on the g1 ... which now bites us.
19:53:10 mirek2: well, they're working on some open-source HTML5 web development tools
19:53:35 mirek2: what do you mean?
19:53:56 mirek2: droid is floss, it never had an italic variant, ...?
19:54:09 astron: for example, droid sans doesnt have an italic, because google felt they needed to save space on the g1 phone
19:54:40 mirek2: sure, but anyone's free to produce an italic version
19:54:53 mirek2: in any case, I think we don't want to ship with Droid fonts
19:55:12 mirek2: and Google's now devoting energy to Roboto
19:56:34 astron: okay
19:57:24 astron: how much are the essential four weights/styles for source sans? and how much for source code?
19:59:33 mirek2: we want just ttf, right?
20:00:49 astron: yes
20:01:10 mirek2: all the weights in just ttf are 1.4 MB, while just the essential ones are about 500 kB
20:01:12 astron: the otf will look awful on windows (and having both is unnecessary)
20:03:18 astron: which means were now at 864 KB+ 500 KB + 1.4 MB (PT Serif)
20:03:28 astron: not so bad.
20:04:20 mirek2: if 5 MB is the limit, I think we can afford to ship all of source sans
20:05:59 astron: no one said 5 mb is the limit, i just said "if were gonna ship all that we picked until now, thatll be over 5 mb" – "thats a bit large" ... hence my deduction that we should have a maximum of 5 mb
20:06:24 mirek2: Open Sans is 2.2 MB
20:06:56 mirek2: the four key weights are about 868 kB
20:07:09 astron: as i said
20:10:19 mirek2: I'm thinking whether it might not be better to just ship those two fonts with all the weights rather than ship a bunch of fonts with just some weights
20:10:39 mirek2: i.e. PT Sans isn't really all that special/distinct
20:10:51 astron: the problem is that libo cant really handle that many weights
20:10:56 mirek2: we might get more variance/typographical goodness if we ship more weights
20:11:25 mirek2: afaik, additional weights are presented as separate font picker entries
20:11:32 mirek2: which is good enough, imho
20:11:56 astron: i dont really like this behaviour
20:12:31 astron: as the picker should be there for the family, not for selecting the weight
20:12:33 mirek2: I think it works
20:12:42 mirek2: at least you don't have to go through a dialog
20:12:56 mirek2: which would be a lot more cumbersome
20:12:56 astron: it also get rather crazy when it tries to find the appropriate bold font
20:13:27 mirek2: true
20:13:31 astron: ie: for some fonts you get semibold, others get the normal bold variant and worst, some get extrabold
20:13:50 astron: (apparently semi-randomly)
20:13:59 astron: (IIRC)
20:14:27 mirek2: that's probably something we should fix first
20:14:48 mirek2: still, I think shipping all the font weights would lead to a lot of typographical goodness
20:15:00 astron: in theory, i agree
20:15:48 astron: of course, you have to take into account that most people only want bold, italic, regular, bold italic and comic sans
20:17:10 mirek2: ok, but template designers might want various weights
20:17:11 astron: btw: for source sans, i get four separate entries in libo, for pt sans two, for open sans five
20:17:36 astron: (of course one might argue that the condensed variants should indeed be shown separately)
20:19:40 mirek2: ok... so do we want to figure out how to deal with different weights and fix it, or do we just want to ship several fonts with the basic weights for now?
20:20:59 astron: i would do both, the latter one first
20:21:19 astron: (because we cant really be sure we have developers who want to do that)
20:21:31 mirek2: ok
20:24:36 mirek2: so... Open Sans, Source Sans, PT Sans, PT Serif, and Andika?
20:24:55 mirek2: or do we want a mono font, in which case I would go for Source Code?
20:26:46 astron: i would not include andika now that were set on two other sans fonts already
20:27:38 mirek2: ok
20:27:59 mirek2: and no mono font, then?
20:28:03 astron: how large is source code?
20:30:34 mirek2: oh wait, it doesn't have italics
20:30:50 mirek2: I suppose we shouldn't bundle it then
20:31:08 astron: i guess not having italics is normal for monospace fonts
20:31:13 astron: (then)
20:31:53 astron: anyway, at 200 KB, it looks its going to be rather small
20:32:09 mirek2: okay
20:32:41 mirek2: I guess we're set with Open Sans, Source Sans, Source Code, PT Sans, and PT Serif
20:32:44 astron: now we need a script and a blackletter and were all set ...
20:34:12 mirek2: maybe in a future process
20:34:25 mirek2: I'm not sure if they're that necessary, but I wouldn't be against having them
20:34:33 astron: dumb joke of mine: )
20:34:40 astron: i think, we should end this here, then, or is there anything else thats urgent?
20:34:40 mirek2: :)
20:34:59 mirek2: I'm all for ending (I'm tired now)
20:35:08 astron: good night, then
20:35:25 astron: ill post the log some time tomorrow...
20:35:52 mirek2: ok
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