Design/Meetings/2012-10-20

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    Attendees

    • Astron
    • Mirek2
    • usr_share

    Topics

    • IRC chat process
    • Design wiki
    • Generic option analysis

    Tasks

    • Ask developers about use-cases for some options.
    • Mirek2: Create Design wiki whiteboard

    Log

    [16:09] <astron247> hi there
[16:10] <@mirek2> hello
[16:10] <@mirek2> I was afraid no one was going to show up
[16:10] <astron247> sorry.
[16:10] <@mirek2> that's ok -- I'm glad someone did :)
[16:11] <astron247> since its just the two of us, i guess we can skip the esc topic..?
[16:11] <@mirek2> yeah
[16:11] <astron247> okay.
[16:11] <@mirek2> how about finishing up options analysis?
[16:12] <astron247> right. id like to get one simple idea out before we continue.
[16:12] <@mirek2> sure, go ahead
[16:14] <astron247> i would like to make it a rule that our irc chats always have a length of 2 hrs maximum. the second thing is, i guess we should mandate that the person that was at the esc (ie usually me) have written up their notes already so we just need to copy them..?
[16:14] <@mirek2> yeah, ok
[16:15] <astron247> also, maybe we should see that we get status updates from everyone and finish that in the first 15–30 mins
[16:15] <@mirek2> or the person could just publish the design-relevant esc minutes on the design list
[16:15] <@mirek2> astron247: agree with everything
[16:15] <@mirek2> I was thinking we could have tasks written up in advance
[16:15] <astron247> okay, probably better for visibility of the notes, youre right
[16:16] <@mirek2> see how we have tasks in the chat logs -- those could be written during the week
[16:17] <@mirek2> also, I was thinking about streamlining the design page
[16:17] <astron247> okay, so the schedule would be:
[16:17] <astron247> * statuses (max 20 mins)
[16:17] <astron247> * esc discussion (ie questions to what is already on the list)
[16:18] <astron247> * discussion of tasks (max. 90mins)
[16:18] <@mirek2> then listed topics + new topics from people who come
[16:18] <@mirek2> ok
[16:19] <astron247> oh, and do we want one note taker?
[16:19] <@mirek2> for what?
[16:19] <@mirek2> you mean, for publishing the log and associated items?
[16:19] <astron247> for writing up tasks etc during the chat, so that we can present them at the top as you occassionally did
[16:20] <astron247> yes
[16:20] <astron247> but mainly for what i said.
[16:20] <@mirek2> sure
[16:20] <@mirek2> do you want to be one this week or should I?
[16:20] <astron247> i e make sure that whenever we reach consensus its written up in condensed form within seconds
[16:21] <@mirek2> right
[16:21] <astron247> so, here we go and i will have to break one rule already: i will only be there until 1900
[16:21] <@mirek2> ok
[16:21] <@mirek2> I'll post the log then
[16:21] <astron247> so, maybe you this time.
[16:21] <astron247> thanks!
[16:22] <astron247> okay. you speaking about streamlining the design page..?
[16:22] <@mirek2> yeah, I think the list of tasks is a bit too daunting for a newbie
[16:23] <@mirek2> maybe just have "contact the mailing list or show up at an irc meeting" for starters
[16:23] <astron247> do you mean the wiki page or the homepage?
[16:23] <@mirek2> and maybe have what we're working on right on the front page
[16:23] <@mirek2> the homepage
[16:23] <@mirek2> of the Design wiki
[16:24] <astron247> oh.
[16:24] <@mirek2> additionally, I don't think Playgrounds are working
[16:25] <@mirek2> the only active playground is the template one, I guess, and we don't really have much use for it
[16:25] <@mirek2> or for any of them, for that matter
[16:26] <astron247> hm, i dont find them so bad. and we could call them galleries or so but that would take the playfulness out of it
[16:26] <@mirek2> I just think the wiki, as it is now, is bit of an overkill
[16:26] <astron247> what is true though is that we have too few graphical designers who want to be core
[16:26] <@mirek2> and might be one of the reasons why people aren't joining
[16:26] <@mirek2> it just doesn't look simple
[16:27] <astron247> i agree mostly. mailing lists are another thing that can seem daunting
[16:27] <@mirek2> we could have a whiteboard for redesigning the design wiki
[16:27] <@mirek2> what do you say?
[16:27] <@mirek2> astron247: I agree, but I don't know of a good alternative
[16:28] <astron247> but i am not sure how you would make the wiki itself easier to use.
[16:28] <@mirek2> I meant the content of the wiki, not the wiki itself
[16:28] <@mirek2> sorry for being unclear
[16:29] <@mirek2> anyway, I think it'd be good to get more people on the team
[16:30] <astron247> what more would you propose except slashing playgrounds?
[16:30] <@mirek2> decreasing the amount of text on https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design
[16:30] <@mirek2> the subscribe section is a bit too lengthy
[16:31] <@mirek2> all that's needed is to tell the person to send a message to the mailing list
[16:31] <@mirek2> or to at least subscribe and see how it works
[16:31] <@mirek2> the "Find a project" category is a bit misleading, as we're only working on a select few projects
[16:32] <@mirek2> we should tell the user which ones
[16:33] <astron247> okay. i agree. maybe we could add a link somwehere to a page dedicated to explaining how we work
[16:33] <astron247> (and remove this content from the design page itself
[16:34] <@mirek2> there's not that much about how we work
[16:34] <@mirek2> anyway, since your time is limited, it's probably better to create a whiteboard for this?
[16:35] <@mirek2> is it ok if I make one?
[16:37] <astron247> okay.
[16:38] <astron247> meanwhile, ive edited the subscribe section a little
[16:38] <@mirek2> alright, I'll get to that after the meeting
[16:38] <@mirek2> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Analyses/Global_Options ?
[16:39] <astron247> yes
[16:39] <astron247> are we at email client?
[16:39] <@mirek2> I suppose
[16:40] <@mirek2> I would say either advanced or unnecessary, should use the system default
[16:40] <astron247> right. it should only be shown if the user doesnt use a desktop as such. windows/gnome provide this, i imagine kde and mac do this also
[16:41] <astron247> so maybe if an option cant be found in the system → provide this. otherwise AOP
[16:43] <@mirek2> wait -- if it's not in your DE, what does LibreOffice use for opening e--mails?
[16:43] <astron247> for opening email?
[16:44] <@mirek2> I mean, for sending documents as e-mails
[16:45] <astron247> not sure. i think a script called sensible-oomua is called by default and that might occasionally fail..?
[16:46] <@mirek2> should I write down "ask a dev about use-case"?
[16:48] <@mirek2> or just mark it as Advanced, just given the fact that a user without a desktop that knows that he has to set the e-mail manager by hand in the Options dialog is an advanced user?
[16:49] <astron247> maybe. but you should be very precise about us wanting to exclude the tinkerer use case and only including cases where this really _has_ to be set.
[16:49] <astron247> (that was re: your email idea)
[16:50] <@mirek2> I'll write down "ask for use-cases" for now
[16:50] <astron247> oka
[16:50] <@mirek2> Connections
[16:50] <astron247> y
[16:51] <astron247> i never use base
[16:51] <@mirek2> hm, never used it, don't know how important it is
[16:51] <@mirek2> your call
[16:51] <@mirek2> ok, so "ask for use cases" as well, huh?
[16:51] <@mirek2> for all the database stuff
[16:51] <astron247> but at least base doesnt have too many options ... id tend to keep whats there, i guess. i really have no idea
[16:52] <@mirek2> yeah, I meant that's my knee-jerk reaction as well -- if I don't know what it's for, then just keep it
[16:53] <@mirek2> Language: Languages
[16:53] <astron247> → advanced
[16:54] <@mirek2> ok
[16:54] <@mirek2> wait, no
[16:54] <@mirek2> it should appear only when an additional lang pack or a multilang version is installed
[16:54] <@mirek2> but it should be generic
[16:55] <astron247> whyß
[16:55] <astron247> ?
[16:55] <@mirek2> possible use case: several people use a non-Ultimate version Windows, but still want to switch languages in as much of their software as possible
[16:55] <@mirek2> nevermind the use-case, though
[16:56] <astron247> what does this have to do with nonultimate windows versions?
[16:56] <@mirek2> the mere existence of additional lang packs and of a multilanguage version should tell us that this feature should appear when the user's using them
[16:56] <astron247> or was that about somethign else0
[16:56] <@mirek2> afaik, windows allows you to switch languages only in the Ultimate version
[16:57] <astron247> mirek2: i tend to disagree. some linux distros tend to add lots of language packs to your system
[16:58] <astron247> just because theyre there does not mean you need them
[16:58] <@mirek2> I'm talking about Windows, since there's no easy way to switch languages in it, I believe
[16:58] <@mirek2> unless you use the Ultimate version
[16:58] <@mirek2> really? Linux distros install additional languages?
[16:59] <astron247> well, check if you have something like "en-ZA"/"en-CA" installed...
[16:59] <astron247> afaik in suse its worse, since they package all non-english lang packs together in one package
[17:00] <@mirek2> in LibreOffice Options, I'm only shown English
[17:01] <@mirek2> Locale setting gives me tons of options, on the other hand
[17:01] <@mirek2> but that makes sense
[17:01] <astron247> okay, i retract my statement about suse from above
[17:02] <astron247> maybe they do that for some packages, but they dont do it for libreoffice
[17:02] <@mirek2> hm... the Help text talks about a multi-language version, but I don't see it on the download page
[17:03] <astron247> thats only for windows
[17:03] <@mirek2> where?
[17:04] <astron247> https://www.libreoffice.org/download/?type=win-x86&lang=cs&version=3.6.2
[17:05] <astron247> note how i set czech as the language, but the installer remains the same 204 mb no matter whether you set english, czech ...
[17:05] <@mirek2> yeah, but doesn't the installer only install the default language pack?
[17:06] <astron247> yes. it installs en-US and the system language by defualt
[17:06] <astron247> you can however add more languages during the installtion
[17:06] <@mirek2> ok
[17:07] <astron247> ie. if you speak something other than english this means that you will always have two lang packs installed and the option is always shown
[17:07] <astron247> brilliant
[17:08] <@mirek2> there it might make sense if the translation isn't complete
[17:08] <@mirek2> or if it's just bad (as it sometimes can be)
[17:08] <@mirek2> Czechs are pretty used to having software in English
[17:09] <astron247> sure, theres a couple of cases where the option makes sense, but i dont think everyone will need this option
[17:09] <@mirek2> and there's a lot of cases when e.g. a question in a modal dialog is in English, but the reply buttons are in Czech
[17:10] <astron247> in libreoffice?
[17:10] <@mirek2> so... I'd agree to remove this option as long as we also remove the additional languages part from the installation dialog
[17:10] <@mirek2> astron247: there I have no idea -- I don't actually use a czech version of libreoffice
[17:11] <astron247> ah... just like me not using it in german and then noticing horrible translations on my parents laptop
[17:11] <@mirek2> right
[17:12] <astron247> i would provide this option in two ways:
[17:12] <astron247> * advanced panel (for normal users)
[17:12] <astron247> * environment variable (fer developers to test)
[17:13] <@mirek2> (by "remove this option", I meant "make it advanced", of course)
[17:13] <astron247> but i dont think it makes sense for people to download all these languages and then not being able to install them
[17:14] <@mirek2> yeah, but I don't think it makes sense for them to install them and then not find them in Options
[17:14] == usr_share [~usr_share@95-27-108-62.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #libreoffice-design
[17:14] <@mirek2> hello
[17:14] <usr_share> oh, hi again :)
[17:15] <astron247> o hai...
[17:15] <@mirek2> btw, I shared your "contextual menus" idea with Michael Meeks and he liked it
[17:15] <usr_share> :)
[17:15] <@mirek2> it will, of course, take a while to get that rolling
[17:17] <astron247> go on?
[17:17] <@mirek2> anyway, we were analyzing Options
[17:17] <astron247> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Analyses/Global_Options
[17:17] <@mirek2> oh, Michael just said he liked the idea
[17:18] <@mirek2> it's up to us, though, to figure out how it should be done
[17:18] <astron247> are you talking privately?
[17:18] <@mirek2> at the conference
[17:18] <@mirek2> I ran the idea by him
[17:19] <astron247> i men usr_share and you
[17:19] <astron247> +a
[17:19] <@mirek2> no
[17:19] <astron247> ... okay then i am maybe just confuzzleed
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[17:21] <@mirek2> where?
[17:21] <@mirek2> what's confusing?
[17:21] <astron247> oh that youre answering questions that seemingly werent asked
[17:21] <astron247> whatsoever...
[17:22] <astron247> okay. firefox p.ex provides these options via addons ... would that be an idea?
[17:22] <@mirek2> I just wanted to tell usr_share the progress on his idea + catch him up on what we were doing
[17:22] <astron247> i know
[17:22] <@mirek2> btw, I assume that whatever you needed to do at 19:00 you don't need to anymore?
[17:23] <astron247> well, no, but the deadline has been postponed to ~1945
[17:23] <astron247> :)
[17:24] <@mirek2> ok :)
[17:24] <@mirek2> astron247: yes, I think it'd be good to present lang packs as add-ons, but it would also mean offering them on the extension site
[17:24] <@mirek2> so it would mean some work for the developers
[17:25] <astron247> okay. then maybe keep the option.
[17:26] <@mirek2> alright :)
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[17:26] <usr_share> oh, sorry
[17:27] <@mirek2> that's ok
[17:27] <usr_share> was trying out elementary daily PPA
[17:27] <@mirek2> :) alright
[17:27] <@mirek2> we're still analyzing options
[17:27] <@mirek2> we're on "Locale setting"
[17:28] <@mirek2> again, I think we should ask for use cases
[17:28] <@mirek2> seems like something that we should take from the system
[17:28] <astron247> its pretty simple: people like to use software in english but want to write with it in their native language
[17:28] <usr_share> what about users who use an OS in one language yet want to have documents in the other?
[17:29] <usr_share> yeah, like astron247 said.
[17:29] <astron247> (thus they need native currency symbols etc.
[17:29] <@mirek2> yes, I know
[17:29] <@mirek2> but, again, this is something the OS usually handles
[17:29] <astron247> not always in this case.
[17:30] <@mirek2> ok
[17:30] <astron247> (i think)
[17:30] <@mirek2> then generic it is
[17:30] <astron247> sucks
[17:30] <astron247> but probably the best decision
[17:30] <@mirek2> I guess
[17:31] <astron247> okay decimal separator key -- thsi one might make sense per document, but hardly as a generic option
[17:31] <astron247> ^hsi^his
[17:31] <@mirek2> yeah, I don't think it's generic either
[17:32] <@mirek2> advanced, then
[17:32] <astron247> contextual?
[17:32] <@mirek2> how?
[17:32] <@mirek2> where would you put it?
[17:33] <astron247> well, i think we should have a separation of document settings and programme settings like scribus has
[17:34] <@mirek2> but this setting applies strictly to the numpad
[17:35] <@mirek2> not sure if it makes that much sense to save it with the document
[17:35] <astron247> oh.
[17:35] <astron247> sorry i should have read better.
[17:36] <astron247> that sounds pretty useless then. keep it on, kill the option
[17:36] <usr_share> well, I don't think a _normal_ user would have an idea of putting a different separator
[17:36] <@mirek2> I think it could be quite useful for some users
[17:37] <@mirek2> I would probably keep it advanced
[17:37] <@mirek2> makes sense when you buy a laptop or keyboard, then move to another country
[17:37] <usr_share> I guess
[17:38] <astron247> not really, your locale should remain the same..?
[17:38] <@mirek2> I'm not sure myself -- that depends on how the OS handles the numpad
[17:38] <@mirek2> and how LibreOffice works
[17:39] <@mirek2> I mean, it says that if the setting isn't activated, then it uses "the character that your keyboard driver software provides is inserted."
[17:40] <@mirek2> hm.... sorry, I'm probably not making much sense right now
[17:40] <@mirek2> in any case, I suppose I wouldn't be against killing the option
[17:40] <astron247> id tend to say kill it and always take the character provided by the locale, but if you say advanced then... fine
[17:41] <@mirek2> no, I guess I say kill it as well
[17:41] <usr_share> well, if we're killing extra settings, that one deserves it
[17:41] <astron247> come on, now its crying.
[17:42] <@mirek2> :)
[17:42] <@mirek2> Default currency
[17:42] <usr_share> "default currency" is definitely generic/advances, though -- imagine you're writing a doc in, say, Russian, that deals with international deals in, say, U.S. Dollars.
[17:43] <usr_share> (oops.. "deals with deals" :( )
[17:43] <astron247> wouldnt that make it document-specific
[17:43] <astron247> ?
[17:43] <usr_share> well, depends on whether there is someone who would do that on a regular basis
[17:43] <@mirek2> the default is there just to make things faster, but it doesn't prevent you from using different currency
[17:44] <@mirek2> it doesn't really make sense to set on a document basis
[17:44] <astron247> that really is what the locale is for, no?
[17:44] <@mirek2> yes
[17:44] <@mirek2> advanced or unnecessary?
[17:45] <usr_share> depends on whether the user will be able to set different parts of locale without this option
[17:45] <usr_share> if yes, then unnecessary
[17:45] <@mirek2> so advanced, then :)
[17:45] <@mirek2> astron?
[17:45] <astron247> advanced means somethign like mozilla's about:config panel
[17:46] <astron247> id go for unnecessary... as a tendency
[17:46] <@mirek2> I would lean toward that as well
[17:46] <astron247> ill have to leave now. see you.
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[17:46] <@mirek2> ok, see you
[17:47] <@mirek2> usr_share: would you like to continue on with the options?
[17:47] <@mirek2> or would you like to discuss another topic of your choice?
[17:48] <usr_share> let's go on
[17:49] <@mirek2> btw, I'm marking this option as Unnecessary, and then we'll ask to see if anyone needs it
[17:50] <@mirek2> ok... default language
[17:51] <@mirek2> generic, I would say
[17:51] <usr_share> the different options for different writing systems are generic
[17:51] <usr_share> but "For the current doc only" is a bit confusing
[17:51] <usr_share> if it's for the current doc, why not move it to somewhere else?
[17:51] <@mirek2> yeah, I think that one should go away
[17:52] <@mirek2> since we have a Tools>Language>For all text entry
[17:53] <@mirek2> actually, now that I look at it, it should be Contextual, as the tools menu doesn't yet include a CTL/Asian language entry
[17:53] <@mirek2> do you agree?
[17:55] <usr_share> well, for the default settings, they make sense
[17:55] <usr_share> but on a per-document basis, I don't think every user would need separate settings for all three
[17:56] <@mirek2> unfortunately, I've never used the Asian or CTL settings
[17:57] <@mirek2> I assume there might be use-cases where part of a document uses Asian glyphs, part doesn't
[17:59] <@mirek2> what do you think?
[17:59] <@mirek2> is it ok if I mark it "Contextual"?
[17:59] <@mirek2> or should I mark it "Ask for use cases"?
[17:59] <usr_share> i guess ok
[17:59] <usr_share> better mark then
[17:59] <@mirek2> the former or the latter?
[18:00] <usr_share> latter
[18:00] <usr_share> ask for use cases
[18:00] <@mirek2> ok
[18:01] <@mirek2> enhanced language support: generic, I would say
[18:01] <usr_share> i'd say so, too
[18:01] <@mirek2> ok
[18:01] <usr_share> especially since this option looks like it'll eat a lot of resources when enabled
[18:02] <@mirek2> + it adds some menu items
[18:02] <@mirek2> I'd also mark all the Asian language stuff generic
[18:03] <usr_share> sorry, i'll have to quit for a little bit
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[18:03] <usr_share> back
[18:04] <usr_share> CTL stuff is generic too, then?
[18:05] <@mirek2> yeah, I think so
[18:06] <usr_share> writing aids then?
[18:07] <@mirek2> hm, I think I'd leave it there for now, I don't really feel like getting into spellcheck options
[18:07] <@mirek2> btw, have you subscribed to the mailing list?
[18:07] <usr_share> I think these options are more in "user's comfort" area
[18:07] <usr_share> not yet
[18:07] <@mirek2> yeah, I guess
[18:07] <@mirek2> I'd just like to leave them for next time
[18:08] <@mirek2> btw, you can subscribe to the list without having to receive e-mail, if that'd be preferable for you
[18:08] <@mirek2> (so you'd be able to post, just wouldn't receive anything)
[18:09] <usr_share> i'll think about iy
[18:09] <usr_share> *it
[18:10] <usr_share> well, I have to go now
[18:10] <usr_share> thanks, and bye
[18:10] <@mirek2> ok, take care
[18:10] <@mirek2> thank you
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