Design/Meetings/2012-10-27

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Attendees

  • Astron
  • Medieval_
  • Mirek2

Topics

  • Design wiki
  • FOSDEM T-shirts
  • Principles
    • Categorization
    • ux-control
    • Examples
  • Color handling
  • Community engagement

Tasks

  • Mirek2: Create Design wiki whiteboard
  • Mirek2: Ask Kendy and the marketing team about the FOSDEM T-shirt
  • Ask developers about color handling: Should we implement it progressively or just introduce a new uniform color picker?

Log

[16:03] <mirek2> hello
[16:04] <@astron247> hi there
[16:06] <mirek2> hm, I meant to put up a Design wiki whiteboard, but I didn't have the time
[16:06] <@astron247> okay.
[16:06] <mirek2> on that topic: what should be the goal + scope? how much do we want to redig?
[16:07] <mirek2> do we want to look at the whole Design subsection of the wiki or just the homepage?
[16:07] <mirek2> I'd opt for the former
[16:07] <mirek2> but what do you think?
[16:07] <@astron247> id opt for the latter...
[16:09] <@astron247> anyway, the goal would be to seem more inviting to new people
[16:09] <mirek2> ok
[16:09] <@astron247> and not to confornt them with too many technicalities
[16:09] <mirek2> but it should also be useful for old timers, right?
[16:10] <mirek2> so how about "Redesign the Design wiki homepage to be useful and usable for both newcomers and frequent contributors alike."
[16:10] <@astron247> yes, but "old timers" will usually already know their way around a bit
[16:11] <mirek2> ok
[16:12] <mirek2> so "Redesign the Design wiki homepage to be useful for newcomers"?
[16:12] <@astron247> well, maybe it shouldnt be jarring to people that have been with us for longer either
[16:13] <mirek2> :) so what I wrote before?
[16:13] <@astron247> but we could try to have a few useful tasks that get switched out...?
[16:13] <@astron247> mirek2: probably almost
[16:14] <@astron247> ugh... i am bad at this.
[16:14] <mirek2> ok, let's stick with it for now and if anyone has a better suggestion, we'll refine it
[16:14] <mirek2> something else I meant to bring up today: the principles
[16:15] <mirek2> would it be alright if I 1) added categories as per my talk, so that the principles are more readable?
[16:15] <@astron247> ok. since no else came in the meantime now, do we want to do esc and statuses?
[16:15] <mirek2> well, you posted the ESC on the mailing list
[16:15] <@astron247> right, any questions..?
[16:16] <mirek2> I guess not
[16:17] <mirek2> I don't think any developer answered our questions about Options
[16:17] <@astron247> also, i like the new system much better, we should have done small esc notes on the list all along ... its much easier remembering while youre in the call
[16:17] <@astron247> mirek2: not so far, no. michael posted it in the mins though
[16:17] <mirek2> :) yes
[16:17] <mirek2> ok
[16:18] <mirek2> do you plan to set up a whiteboard for the FOSDEM T-shirts, or should I?
[16:18] <@astron247> if youd do it, thatd be great.
[16:18] <mirek2> :) ok
[16:19] <@astron247> be sure to include some kind of t-shirt template
[16:19] <mirek2> I'll look for it online
[16:19] <mirek2> with any luck, I'll find something we've done before
[16:19] <mirek2> any specifics from the call, btw?
[16:19] <mirek2> about the T-shirts?
[16:20] <@astron247> well, not really beyond "it does npot have to be fosdem-specific, so we dont have to throw it away after the event"
[16:20] <mirek2> if I understood correctly, these are LibreOffice-branded T-shirts?
[16:21] <mirek2> without a FOSDEM brand?
[16:21] <@astron247> i think it was something like may or may not...
[16:21] <@astron247> have the fosdem brand on it
[16:22] <mirek2> and Kendy is the initiator? should I turn to him for specifics?
[16:23] <@astron247> well, thats why the question mark is there... i am not sure it was kendy
[16:23] <mirek2> ok
[16:23] <mirek2> shouldn't the marketing team be in charge of this, though?
[16:24] <@astron247> i think theyre not on the call...
[16:24] <@astron247> at least theres never been anyone whos given a marketing update (except for italo in our physical meeting)
[16:25] <mirek2> hm... I'll write to Kendy for specifics, then to the marketing team if they'd like to take care of it
[16:25] == Medieval [2e83ea5a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.131.234.90] has joined #libreoffice-design
[16:25] <mirek2> hello
[16:25] <@astron247> okay
[16:25] <Medieval> hello
[16:26] <@astron247> hi
[16:26] <mirek2> Medieval: is there a topic you'd like to discuss?
[16:27] <Medieval> no
[16:27] <Medieval> not specific
[16:27] <mirek2> (so that we could take care of it first, if one of us has to leave early)
[16:27] <mirek2> ok
[16:27] <Medieval> ok
[16:27] <mirek2> so, as I was saying, before, I'd like to add categories to our principles
[16:27] <@astron247> who is doing the notes today btw?
[16:28] <mirek2> simply for the sake of readability
[16:28] <mirek2> I can
[16:28] <mirek2> would that be ok?
[16:29] <@astron247> mirek2: are you asking about the principles? or taking notes?
[16:29] <mirek2> well, both
[16:30] <@astron247> that makes it harder to answer...
[16:30] <@astron247> taking notes: yes, sure!
[16:30] <@astron247> new principle: i dont think i understand it yet
[16:31] <mirek2> no new principles, just categorization of old principles
[16:31] <@astron247> ugh... sorry misread this
[16:31] <mirek2> I used "Speedy", "Self-explanatory", and "Error-proof" in my slides, with tone being the odd one out
[16:32] <mirek2> that could go under "Friendly" or something
[16:33] <mirek2> I feel that the current list is hard to look through, which is quite bad considering this is the basis which we use to justify design decisions
[16:34] <Medieval> You are talking about these: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Principles
[16:34] <Medieval> ?
[16:34] <mirek2> yes
[16:34] <Medieval> Yes, they need categories
[16:35] <mirek2> ok, great :)
[16:35] <mirek2> astron, your thoughts?
[16:36] <@astron247> basically a good idea, i think
[16:36] <mirek2> ok
[16:37] <@astron247> about tone ... maybe this really hardly fits in any of the three categories
[16:37] <@astron247> and making a category for just one heuristic seems like useless idea...
[16:38] <mirek2> I don't think so -- I'd rather have a separate category for one item than force it into a category it doesn't belong in
[16:39] <mirek2> and tone is pretty special -- it doesn't relate to usability at all
[16:40] <mirek2> it just tells the designer to be polite
[16:40] <mirek2> perhaps "Polite" could be the category?
[16:40] <@astron247> also, i have the feeling that several heuristics would fit in multiple categories – it would mean losing the good overview that the categories create thoguh...
[16:40] <@astron247> mirek2: id rather go for friendly than polite, as polite sounds a bit formal.
[16:40] <mirek2> well, you have my presentation, so judge for yourself
[16:41] <mirek2> ok
[16:41] <mirek2> but I think friendly is a lot more vague
[16:42] <mirek2> it's true that "Self-explanatory" could be a subcategory of "Speedy", as the more self-explanatory something is, the quicker the user can pick it up
[16:42] <mirek2> but I wouldn't say that would lead to confusion
[16:44] <Medieval> To me these principles look very complex and noisy
[16:44] <@astron247> :)
[16:44] <@astron247> btw, mireks presentation is here: http://ubuntuone.com/0LcFbaOXbcIqi5k035Dgfz
[16:47] <@astron247> imho, you put too many things into "speedy"...
[16:47] <@astron247> eg. visual hierarchy should be in self-explanatory imho
[16:47] <mirek2> if you can think of better categories, go ahead
[16:48] <mirek2> "visual hierarchy" tells you to highlight the functions that are more commonly used
[16:48] <mirek2> they don't explain anything
[16:48] <mirek2> they're only there to make access to commonly-used stuff faster
[16:49] <@astron247> and make it easy to recognise the important stuff first
[16:50] <mirek2> sure, but that relates to speed as well
[16:50] <@astron247> a bit, yes.
[16:51] <mirek2> "self-explanatory" should be interpreted as "requiring as little explanation as possible"
[16:51] <@astron247> yes
[16:52] <mirek2> a self-explanatory design does not rely on manuals, pop-over explanations, or tags
[16:52] <mirek2> (does not rely on, but can make use of)
[16:52] <@astron247> okay
[16:53] <mirek2> is it alright if I add these categories, then?
[16:54] <@astron247> i think so.
[16:54] <mirek2> great :)
[16:54] <mirek2> another thing: ux-control
[16:54] <@astron247> one idea: can you maybe add jargon under "friendly" too?
[16:55] <@astron247> Medieval: btw, what did you mean by "noisy"? the language of the heuristics?
[16:55] <Medieval> Where you are looking these proposed categories now?'
[16:56] <mirek2> I believe jargon fits under self-explanatory, because that's what the principle is intended for
[16:56] <mirek2> i.e. a design follows ux-jargon if the user doesn't have to look in the dictionary to understand it
[16:57] <mirek2> that's also the reason why I prefer "polite" -- it's much more specific than "friendly" and thus avoids overlap with the other categories
[16:57] <@astron247> mirek2: sure, but as i noted before, other things could go under multiple categories as well ... and since a category with just one entry is bad, let's put sth else there, too
[16:57] <@astron247> mirek2: come on, its semantics, not an absolute science.
[16:58] <mirek2> what's wrong with having a category for one entry?
[16:58] <mirek2> why is that bad?
[16:58] <@astron247> Medieval: theyre in the presentation that i linked to before
[16:58] <Medieval> ok
[16:58] <mirek2> it's best to be as precise as possible
[16:59] <mirek2> really, I would like to avoid logical inconsistencies
[16:59] <@astron247> oh my.
[16:59] <Medieval> to me the presentation made much easier to understand the principles
[16:59] <mirek2> but seriously, what's wrong with having a category hold just one item
[17:00] <mirek2> Medieval: :) great
[17:00] <@astron247> having a category with just one item is bad, because then you can just define the category to be exactly the same asthe item
[17:00] <mirek2> hm... maybe we'd like to include some examples on the principles page as well...
[17:00] <@astron247> mirek2: great idea!
[17:01] <mirek2> astron247: sure you could, but if you did that for every item, that would defeat the point of categories
[17:01] <@astron247> thats what im arguing.
[17:01] <mirek2> again, if you can think of a better categorization system, go ahead
[17:01] <mirek2> but we don't do that for every item
[17:01] <mirek2> just one item
[17:02] <mirek2> it's like when you write down a list of an author's works and separate them by genre
[17:02] <@astron247> i dont believe i ngenres
[17:02] <mirek2> or by topic
[17:02] <mirek2> or anything
[17:03] <mirek2> you sometimes end up with a category or two containing just one work
[17:03] <mirek2> but that doesn't hurt the categorization in general
[17:04] <@astron247> usually, though, you have some sort of pre-set category then, like $author wrote five novels, three short story, one poem
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[17:04] == Medieval_ [259d62da@gateway/web/freenode/ip.37.157.98.218] has joined #libreoffice-design
[17:04] <@astron247> here, we have all the possibilities of creating a new categorisation
[17:05] <mirek2> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Asimov_bibliography is alphabetically organized
[17:05] <mirek2> "X" contains just one work
[17:06] <mirek2> do you think that hurts the categorization system?
[17:07] <@astron247> well,
[17:07] <mirek2> or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Works_by_J.K._Rowling: just one book under "Adult"
[17:07] <@astron247> you could do an XYZ category
[17:08] <mirek2> but why would you -- that's just being inconsistent when every other letter has its own category
[17:08] <mirek2> another example: when you search in Gnome Shell, sometimes you get one result under a few categories
[17:08] <mirek2> but the categories still help in looking through the results
[17:09] <@astron247> but gnome shell does that automatically.
[17:09] <mirek2> batching unrelated categories together would be counterproductive
[17:09] <mirek2> astron247: sure, but I'm saying that the categories are still helpful, even when they contain just one item
[17:09] <@astron247> ok. forget it. do the one-item category.
[17:10] <mirek2> on the other hand, "Miscellaneous" categories tend to not help with anything
[17:10] <mirek2> :) sorry for being so unyielding
[17:11] <mirek2> another principle-related topic: I'd like to define ux-control in a more precise way
[17:11] <mirek2> how about "Software should not automate against the user's will. It should not hurt the user or his data and should not prevent him from accomplishing the intended goal."?
[17:13] <@astron247> i actually like the old description. to me, it makes it clear that control is not meant as an absolute, but rather as a feeling here
[17:13] <mirek2> or is there another intention to ux-control that I'm missing?
[17:13] <mirek2> I really don't like the old description, since it can be used to argue basically anything
[17:14] <mirek2> everything that we decided against under the General options analysis could be theoretically argued for on the basis of ux-control
[17:14] <@astron247> no, not really.
[17:15] <mirek2> "Not having [option] makes me feel like I don't have control over the software." -- how can you argue against that?
[17:16] <@astron247> or at least not for the general population (a few techies might like to control everythings and have enough knowledge to understand what they are doing)
[17:16] <@astron247> having <option> makes me unsure if what i am doing is right, i feel out of control
[17:16] <mirek2> "[option]" could be e.g. being able to change the toolbar color, or silly stuff like that
[17:17] <mirek2> astron247: you're redefining the principle yourself
[17:17] <@astron247> how so?
[17:17] <mirek2> Original: Users should always feel like they are in control of their software.
[17:18] <mirek2> example a) The general population should always feel like they are in control of their software.
[17:18] <mirek2> example b) Users should never feel unsure about what they're doing, shouldn't feel like their software is out of control.
[17:19] <Medieval_> How is the visual side coming? Something like this: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:1.odt ?
[17:19] <Medieval_> I think the original is OK
[17:20] <mirek2> Medieval_: not sure I understand your question; we're using wiki markup for the wiki, with no change in styling
[17:20] <Medieval_> Yes ofcourse
[17:20] <mirek2> ("for the principles", not "for the wiki")
[17:21] <@astron247> mirek2: okay, so how am i redefining ux-control?
[17:21] <Medieval_> yes
[17:21] <mirek2> see examples a and b above
[17:22] <@astron247> i see them
[17:22] <mirek2> these are derived from your arguments
[17:22] <@astron247> okay
[17:22] <mirek2> the original principles talked about all users, thus even those few techies you mentioned
[17:23] <mirek2> -s
[17:24] <@astron247> personas are go!
[17:25] <@astron247> we should have a target audience, and we should target it...
[17:26] <mirek2> my feelings on the topic kind of reflect Alex Faaborg's from this post: https://blog.mozilla.org/faaborg/2010/04/07/what-i-have-against-contextual-design-and-personas/
[17:26] <mirek2> in any case, let's put personas aside
[17:27] <mirek2> anyway, about "Software should not automate against the user's will. It should not hurt the user or his data and should not prevent him from accomplishing the intended goal."
[17:27] <mirek2> are there any deficiencies to that definition?
[17:29] <mirek2> (message of linked blog post: personas are good when you're designing niche software, not that useful when designing for the general population)
[17:29] <@astron247> ive been reading it
[17:29] <Medieval_> Software should not hurt the user or his data and should not prevent him from accomplishing the intended goal.
[17:29] <mirek2> yes
[17:30] <@astron247> the problem with that probably is that de have target groups that use very diffeernet aspects of libo
[17:30] <@astron247> ... just that theres a lot of different ones
[17:30] <mirek2> I would prefer not to go into this discussion
[17:30] <mirek2> also, there are a lot of features that really do apply to the general public
[17:30] <@astron247> okay. i will leave now, sorry...
[17:31] <@astron247> mirek2: like colouring text pink, yes.
[17:31] <mirek2> ok, we'll leave that up for the next chat then
[17:31] <@astron247> but how about bibliography management?
[17:31] <@astron247> ok, bye.
[17:31] == astron247 [~frootzowr@dslb-188-102-183-099.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #libreoffice-design []
[17:32] <mirek2> on bibliography management: it could gain massively in usage if it was more usable
[17:32] <mirek2> most of the general population could use it for academic/professional work at some point in their life
[17:33] <mirek2> anyway...
[17:33] <mirek2> Medieval_: how do you think we should include the examples?
[17:34] <mirek2> let me rephrase that: how should examples of the principles applied be presented?
[17:35] <mirek2> (if there's a different topic you'd like to talk about, feel free to bring it up)
[17:35] <Medieval_> Most of my no
[17:36] <mirek2> ?
[17:36] <Medieval_> No need for exa,ples maybe
[17:36] <Medieval_> my computer went crasy
[17:36] <mirek2> should I maybe just link to the presentation?
[17:36] <Medieval_> yes
[17:36] <Medieval_> i was thinking about  bibliography management
[17:37] <mirek2> ok
[17:37] <mirek2> what about it?
[17:37] <Medieval_> i havent really used it
[17:37] <Medieval_> but i am writing a lot with writer
[17:38] <Medieval_> and using citations and stuff
[17:38] <Medieval_> in college
[17:38] <Medieval_> i havent really figured out how to use it
[17:40] <mirek2> yeah, it'd be great to redesign, but I think we have our hands full right now
[17:40] <mirek2> all I can do is reference you to the manual, really
[17:40] <Medieval_> next topic:
[17:40] <mirek2> but if it's something you'd be interested in working on, we can add it to our list of tasks
[17:40] <Medieval_> I don
[17:41] <Medieval_> Why design team changes thing just to change something?
[17:41] <Medieval_> Like the splash change?'
[17:43] <mirek2> there's usually some reasoning behind it
[17:43] <mirek2> the splash change was simply to make something look nicer
[17:43] <Medieval_> or I see problem there where itäs not?'
[17:44] <Medieval_> ok
[17:44] <mirek2> + the team is run by volunteers so it really depends on what they want to do
[17:44] <Medieval_> yes
[17:44] <mirek2> if they want a better anything, they're free to start a project
[17:45] <Medieval_> Whats the progress with Color handling?'
[17:45] <mirek2> the splash redesign was started by astron, I believe, or perhaps someone from the ESC (Engineering Steering Committee)
[17:46] <Medieval_> ok
[17:46] <mirek2> Medieval_: no progress, no interested developer, and design is still on hold
[17:47] <mirek2> but, again, if you can devote time to it, either design-wise or developer-wise, we can start devoting some time to it again
[17:47] <Medieval_> Why not first make new pallette?
[17:47] <Medieval_> its easy and no developers needed?
[17:47] <mirek2> are you subscribed to the design mailing list?
[17:48] <Medieval_> yes
[17:48] <mirek2> and the ux-advise mailing list?
[17:48] <Medieval_> no
[17:48] <mirek2> you might want to subscribe to that as well
[17:49] <Medieval_> ok
[17:49] <Medieval_> The 8 columns was my idea
[17:49] <mirek2> it was discussed on one of those lists
[17:49] <Medieval_> to make it easier for new palettes
[17:50] <mirek2> in any case, the biggest reason for not making a new palette yet is because we need to preserve compatibility with the old one
[17:51] <mirek2> i.e. if a person opens an older document that he used our old colors with in a new version of LibreOffice with a new palette, he needs a way to be able to use the old colors again
[17:51] <Medieval_> thats why we need document colors or custom colrs to be implemented
[17:51] <mirek2> which he doesn't have until we implement the Color handling stuff from the wiki
[17:52] <mirek2> Medieval_: right
[17:53] <Medieval_> yes
[17:53] <Medieval_> but as i see it will be not implemented near future or ever`
[17:53] <mirek2> it all depends on whether we attract developer attention
[17:53] <Medieval_> your design is winning one?
[17:54] <mirek2> there is no winning design -- the tentative design tends to be a combination of factors from the various designs
[17:54] <mirek2> based on a thorough comparison and analysis
[17:55] <mirek2> which we never got finished with
[17:55] <mirek2> anyway, a good topic to discuss right now might be how to bring in more people
[17:55] <Medieval_> This is the first one to do then
[17:55] <mirek2> not really
[17:55] <Medieval_> How much active people are there?
[17:56] <Medieval_> many*
[17:56] <mirek2> well, I would say mostly Astron, Alex, and me on the part of the design team
[17:57] <mirek2> there are no developers devoted to working on stuff we design, but once in a while we get a request for a design from a developer
[17:57] <Medieval_> Ok
[17:57] <Medieval_> What about the one who contacted in mailing list?
[17:57] <Medieval_> developer some kind
[17:58] <mirek2> e.g. Cedric Bosdonnat asked us about how to best implement CMIS integration
[17:58] <mirek2> Medieval_: I asked him to show up today
[17:58] <Medieval_> I read it.
[17:58] <Medieval_> But its around noon in Coolumbia
[17:59] <Medieval_> Maybe sleeping
[17:59] <mirek2> :) yeah, maybe
[17:59] <mirek2> I'll write to him about what he'd like to work on
[17:59] <mirek2> color handling is a good topic
[18:00] <Medieval_> About color handling: I think it must be done by steps
[18:00] <mirek2> yeah, I suppose
[18:00] <Medieval_> First implement document color
[18:01] <Medieval_> And second: now there are too many colors to be shown
[18:01] <mirek2> the problem with that is that we have several different color pickers
[18:01] <mirek2> compare the one for shape fill with the one for text color in Impress
[18:02] <Medieval_> Yes i see
[18:03] <mirek2> but maybe the duplicate work+additional design is worth the progressive implementation
[18:03] <mirek2> I'll bring it up on the list
[18:05] <mirek2> anyway, about bringing in more developers/designers
[18:05] <mirek2> what do you think we could do?
[18:05] <mirek2> what do you think we could improve upon?
[18:05] <Medieval_> And then we need to find developers
[18:05] <mirek2> and, in general, how could we engage more with the community?
[18:06] <Medieval_> yes
[18:06] <mirek2> (I'm assuming more community engagement=more volunteers)
[18:06] <Medieval_> my time is limited
[18:06] <Medieval_> because of university
[18:06] <mirek2> ok
[18:07] <mirek2> are you leaving then?
[18:07] <Medieval_> no
[18:07] <mirek2> ok
[18:07] <mirek2> what are you trying to tell me?
[18:07] <mirek2> that you don't have time to volunteer much?
[18:08] <Medieval_> I am just hoping to figure out the developer who fixed the different color column number
[18:08] <Medieval_> yes
[18:08] <mirek2> ok
[18:09] <mirek2> different color column number?
[18:09] <Medieval_> sorry
[18:10] <Medieval_> there were somewhere 10 column and somewhere 8 column in color pallettes
[18:10] <Medieval_> that messed up the color pallette
[18:10] <Medieval_> and so
[18:10] <Medieval_> there was one developer who fixed it
[18:11] <Medieval_> i want to find him and ask if he want to help us improve colou handling
[18:12] <mirek2> ok
[18:14] <Medieval_> As you can see my english isn´t best
[18:14] <mirek2> it's not bad at all
[18:15] <mirek2> but I don't think I can help you find the developer
[18:16] <Medieval_> yes i know
[18:16] <Medieval_> i am now looking uo the archives
[18:16] <mirek2> ok
[18:17] <mirek2> which ones? of the developer mailing list?
[18:19] <Medieval_> it was in bug reports
[18:20] <mirek2> ok
[18:22] <Medieval_> isn´t Christoph Noack any more active?
[18:23] <Medieval_> I think we need to ask developer list if there is somebody willing to help`
[18:24] <mirek2> no, he left, though he occasionally shows up for a comment
[18:24] <mirek2> :) we can ask on ux-advise
[18:24] <mirek2> but maybe we should have a design first
[18:24] <Medieval_> ok
[18:25] <mirek2> I don't know if the team has time for that right now, though
[18:25] <mirek2> there are other priorities to sort out first
[18:25] <mirek2> it'd be great if we could get more people :)
[18:25] <mirek2> for community engagement, I was thinking we could do something like https://plus.google.com/events/cjct86fn2gb6hkquj4shj3cj5cg
[18:26] <mirek2> let people ask about what we're doing and kind of suggest how they could help
[18:27] <mirek2> one of the things we're also working on is redesigning the Design wiki homepage so it's more volunteer-friendly
[18:27] <Medieval_> it would be nice
[18:28] <mirek2> what else do you think we could do to get developers?
[18:28] <mirek2> it would also be helpful to know how you got involved and what you thought of the experience
[18:28] <mirek2> I was also thinking we could be present on Twitter and on DeviantArt, to reach out to a broader audience
[18:29] <Medieval_> yes
[18:29] <mirek2> for DeviantArt, it would also be helpful to be able to embed images from other sites on the wiki
[18:29] <mirek2> I need to ask on the website list about that
[18:29] <Medieval_> maybe some popup in libreoffice
[18:29] <Medieval_> +
[18:30] <Medieval_>  alot of people are using libre office
[18:31] <Medieval_> but they don´t really know that they can help
[18:32] <mirek2> I would be against things popping up in LibreOffice -- it devalues the experience
[18:32] <mirek2> (like having an ad in your software)
[18:32] <Medieval_> not poping
[18:33] <Medieval_> one button to startup?
[18:34] <mirek2> a "get involved" button on the start center?
[18:34] <Medieval_> yes
[18:35] <mirek2> could you make a mockup?
[18:35] <Medieval_> i can try
[18:35] <mirek2> or post a message on the design list, so that people could think about it?
[18:36] <mirek2> (you don't have to do it now)
[18:37] <mirek2> what exactly do you imagine, though?
[18:38] <mirek2> finding developers through the start center?
[18:38] <mirek2> or designers?
[18:38] <mirek2> or a generic "Get involved" button to take you to https://www.libreoffice.org/get-involved?
[18:38] <Medieval_> i don+t think we find developers
[18:38] <Medieval_> but maybe peaople can say what they want
[18:39] <Medieval_> and link to this page maybe too
[18:40] <mirek2> maybe we should redesign the get involved page
[18:40] <mirek2> e.g. here's Mozilla's: https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/contribute/
[18:41] <mirek2> or we could do a promotional video
[18:41] <mirek2> or just share Michael Meeks's EasyHacks presentation, once it's online
[18:43] <mirek2> there's another mozilla "get involved" page: http://whatcanidoformozilla.org/
[18:43] <Medieval_> Mozilla page is fun and catching
[18:45] <Medieval_> something like this is nice to have in get involved page
[18:46] <mirek2> yeah... if we have the time we should get on that as well
[18:46] <Medieval_> and then we can put link(icon) to starup too
[18:46] <mirek2> hm... so much to do
[18:46] <Medieval_> yes
[18:46] <mirek2> anyway, how did you get involved?
[18:46] <mirek2> what inspired you to join?
[18:47] <mirek2> and what obstacles did/do you run into?
[18:47] <Medieval_> it was a long ago
[18:48] <Medieval_> i think it started when i didn´t like something in openoffice and wanted to change
[18:49] <Medieval_> and after using linux
[18:51] <mirek2> the same for me
[18:51] <mirek2> is it ok if we end the meeting now?
[18:51] <mirek2> or is there anything else you'd like to discuss?
[18:51] <Medieval_> yes
[18:52] <mirek2> ok
[18:52] <mirek2> do you plan to attend next week?
[18:52] <Medieval_> no
[18:52] <Medieval_> same time?
[18:52] <Medieval_> i donät now if i have time
[18:52] <mirek2> yes, same time
[18:52] <mirek2> alright
[18:53] <mirek2> see you