Design/Meetings/2012-11-10

    From The Document Foundation Wiki


    Attendees

    • alexanderW
    • Astron
    • Medieval
    • michelr
    • Mirek2
    • usr_share

    Topics

    • Color picker
      • Previews
    • 4.0 Branding
      • Icons
      • Motif, splash, playgrounds, ...
      • Default shape color
    • #WeWantODFSupport
    • Template manager

    Tasks

    Alex:

    • Set up the 4.0 branding whiteboard.

    Astron:

    • Put up the Windows installer whiteboard.

    Mirek2:

    • Contact elementary and Gnome to collaborate.
    • Contact Florian about #WeWantODFSupport

    Log

    alexanderW:
    
    hi
    
    – michelr hat den Raum betreten
    
    alexanderW:
    
    hi
    
    michelr:
    
    hi, did the chat started ?
    
    alexanderW:
    
    not yet
    
    – usr_share hat den Raum betreten
    
    Medieval:
    
    hi
    
    usr_share:
    
    hi
    
    alexanderW:
    
    Should we start discussing?
    
    alexanderW:
    
    ping
    
    Medieval:
    
    yes
    
    usr_share:
    
    ok, i guess...
    
    Medieval:
    
    [https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Color_Picker]
    
    Medieval:
    
    What do you think about our decisions there?
    
    alexanderW:
    
    didn't know there were new mock-ups
    
    usr_share:
    
    I didn't know either
    
    Medieval:
    
    Last week chat: [https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings/2012-11-03]
    
    alexanderW:
    
    Looks good to me
    
    alexanderW:
    
    maybe use a combobox instead of the text on the left
    
    – sophi hat den Raum betreten
    
    usr_share:
    
    dunno, a combo-box wouldn't be as quick to use
    
    michelr:
    
    Yes, on the first view, the text on the left gave me bad informations
    
    usr_share:
    
    and I don't think it'd make much sense in general
    
    Medieval:
    
    Tht was talked about
    
    alexanderW:
    
    why was it changed?
    
    michelr:
    
    I thaught "custom colors" was the title of the first row, "document colors", the title of the second row...
    
    – usr_share ist jetzt bekannt als usr_away
    
    Medieval:
    
    [16:24] <astron247> mirek: i am a bit unsure about floats on floats, i. e. the combo box for different palettes
    
    Medieval:
    
    If Astron or Mirek comes then you can ask from them
    
    alexanderW:
    
    ok
    
    Medieval:
    
    I like the combobox better
    
    Medieval:
    
    (I don
    
    Medieval:
    
    (I donät know why but they allway come 17 UTC)
    
    michelr:
    
    I guess it's just a pb of drawing : instead of a small white triangle, why not draw an horizontal tab ?
    
    alexanderW:
    
    small white triangle?
    
    alexanderW:
    
    I guess because the captions are too long?
    
    michelr:
    
    the triangle that indicate which list of colors is selected (in front of the bold text)
    
    alexanderW:
    
    yes
    
    Medieval:
    
    I think for touch support the list on the left is better that combobox
    
    alexanderW:
    
    probably
    
    michelr:
    
    i don't know what is planned now : start coding ?
    
    alexanderW:
    
    finding a dev
    
    michelr:
    
    i have a suggestion : create prototypes to test and validate before real coding
    
    alexanderW:
    
    html?
    
    – usr_away ist jetzt bekannt als usr_share
    
    michelr:
    
    for ex i create a quick'n'dirty in html+jquery : [http://michel.renon.free.fr/libreoffice/20121110/]
    
    alexanderW:
    
    would be awesome
    
    usr_share:
    
    the "touch support" point is a nice one
    
    alexanderW:
    
    I see grey dots where the white lines cross
    
    alexanderW:
    
    usr_share:
    
    and yeah, a combo box is really an illogical option -- they are designed to provide several choices for a single option, not to open up different ones
    
    alexanderW:
    
    could you expand that prototype to show the other options?
    
    michelr:
    
    i just integrated the image minutes ago ; the content of the menu is just an image without interactivity
    
    alexanderW:
    
    With an imagemap maybe?
    
    usr_share:
    
    now, here come my questions about this idea:
    
    usr_share:
    
    the box at the bottom shows a black/white piece of text on a colored background
    
    usr_share:
    
    that makes sense for "bg color" picker, but not for 'text color'
    
    michelr:
    
    If you find it interesting, i plan to expand it ; and with jquery (or other), we can create very realistic prototypes
    
    usr_share:
    
    maybe for a 'text color' picker, the box should be remade into smth. different?
    
    usr_share:
    
    for example, a "current bg color" box that would show a smaller (20x20) box and the color's name in the hovered 'text color'?
    
    alexanderW:
    
    I think the color bar is there to show the current color
    
    – ertai_NL hat den Raum betreten
    
    usr_share
    
    is trying to illustrate, please wait...
    
    alexanderW:
    
    not neccesarily to show how it looks as bg color
    
    Medieval:
    
    it is there for color
    
    alexanderW:
    
    so if you got a color that's not poart of the currently selected palette you can still access it via the popup
    
    alexanderW:
    
    I don't think it should be removed
    
    alexanderW:
    
    usr: share_that might be something to think about if the current mock-up has been implemented i think
    
    usr_share:
    
    [http://i.imgur.com/CTAug.png]
    
    usr_share:
    
    'cause, say, a bright red would look nice on the top one, but not on the bottom one
    
    usr_share:
    
    keeping the user from selecting a bad color as a text one
    
    usr_share:
    
    while the small box on the left would still give a look of how the color actually looks
    
    alexanderW:
    
    or put a small square inside the color bar
    
    – mirek2 hat den Raum betreten
    
    alexanderW:
    
    the square having the text color
    
    alexanderW:
    
    hi mirek
    
    mirek2:
    
    hello
    
    Medieval:
    
    hi
    
    mirek2:
    
    how are so many people here?
    
    mirek2:
    
    am I missing something?
    
    alexanderW:
    
    Magic
    
    usr_share:
    
    alexanderW: the square doesn't have such a fg/bg "concentration" as a box
    
    mirek2:
    
    :)
    
    usr_share:
    
    there's a reason normal texts are claimed to make only 5% of the paper black
    
    alexanderW:
    
    ;)
    
    Medieval:
    
    We are talking about your color picker mockup
    
    mirek2:
    
    alright
    
    alexanderW:
    
    Or make the actually color name have the text color
    
    usr_share:
    
    mirek2: and I'm trying to push an idea, which looks like this: [http://i.imgur.com/CTAug.png] (the piece on the bottom for "text color", on top for "bg / hilight color"
    
    usr_share:
    
    alexanderW: that is intended, yes.
    
    usr_share:
    
    the color name and a box should have the text color.
    
    alexanderW:
    
    so, the name might be hard to read when the contrast is low
    
    usr_share:
    
    alexanderW: yup. thus keeping the user from making bad color decisions
    
    alexanderW:
    
    which box?
    
    alexanderW:
    
    I'll draw smthng
    
    usr_share:
    
    alexanderW: I drew a little 24x24 box at the left of the "color preview" area
    
    mirek2:
    
    is there a certain color you believe would be problematic?
    
    mirek2:
    
    the idea was to use white on dark backgrounds and black on light ones
    
    alexanderW:
    
    For the label?
    
    mirek2:
    
    if you look at the Gnome color picker, they do the same thing, just with a check inside a circle
    
    usr_share:
    
    mirek2: yes, but that would make the user think selecting a text color will change the bg color
    
    mirek2:
    
    yes
    
    usr_share:
    
    *could
    
    mirek2:
    
    I don't think it would
    
    mirek2:
    
    and once he applied it, he'd see that it wouldn't
    
    usr_share:
    
    mirek2: the point is, we can use the interface to tell the user: "you have a white background. putting bright orange text on it is a bad idea."
    
    Medieval:
    
    Its good option if its doable
    
    mirek2:
    
    the box at the bottom shouldn't serve as a preview
    
    mirek2:
    
    actually, its original point was for color-blind users to know what color they're selecting with a label
    
    mirek2:
    
    the color background was added so that the user is immersed in the selected/highlighted color
    
    usr_share
    
    is illustrating some more. Please wait...
    
    – reisi007 hat den Raum betreten
    
    alexanderW:
    
    [http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/90/testgoz.png/]
    
    alexanderW:
    
    left one is the popover for text color the right one for bg-color
    
    mirek2:
    
    the problems I see with using the box for preview are:
    
    alexanderW:
    
    and the caption on the right should read 'lemon' or something
    
    alexanderW:
    
    and the one on the left 'purple' :/
    
    reisi007:
    
    Hi! regular IRC meeting?
    
    alexanderW:
    
    yes
    
    mirek2:
    
    a) color-blind users won't know if they're applying green text to a red background or red text to a red background
    
    usr_share:
    
    (example) [http://ompldr.org/vZzd6ZA/static3.png]
    
    mirek2:
    
    b) sometimes the text would serve as a preview, but most of the time it won't -- that's inconsistent
    
    usr_share:
    
    mirek2: it wouldn't?
    
    usr_share:
    
    in both cases, it would show how would the text look if the color is selected.
    
    usr_share:
    
    (except the "automatic" option) >_<
    
    mirek2:
    
    but you have to remember that a) the label is there primarily for color-blind users
    
    mirek2:
    
    if we show the preview on the document background, a color-blind user won't know if they're using green-on-green or red-on-green, because there won't be enough contrast for him to read the label
    
    mirek2:
    
    b) despite the mockups being focused on font color, they will apply to all sorts of color pickers
    
    mirek2:
    
    (shape fill, stroke color, text highlight, etc.)
    
    alexanderW:
    
    right now you were talking about a seperate box below showing the font color?
    
    mirek2:
    
    oh, I guess I misunderstood the proposal
    
    mirek2:
    
    the proposal to have an additional preview box in the pop-up?
    
    alexanderW:
    
    mine?
    
    alexanderW:
    
    I asked whether you were talking about the one with the additional box
    
    mirek2:
    
    I meant to ask "the proposal was to have an additional preview box in the pop-up?"
    
    alexanderW:
    
    I got a bit lost
    
    mirek2:
    
    me too :)
    
    usr_share:
    
    mirek2: I supposed the preview box on the bottom is supposed to be used for choosing a text color, while bg color will go with a normal one
    
    usr_share:
    
    (that is, one with a box)
    
    mirek2:
    
    my question is: is it supposed to replace the color+label box, or is it an additional element below it?
    
    usr_share:
    
    mirek2: I thought it was supposed to replace the color+label box
    
    usr_share:
    
    but looking at it now, I think this is not the best option
    
    usr_share:
    
    (I apologize)
    
    mirek2:
    
    don't apologize -- all ideas welcome
    
    mirek2:
    
    with pop-ups, it is better to do live preview (i.e. preview as you hover over options in the document itself), because, unlike dialogs, pop-ups don't cover the whole document
    
    alexanderW:
    
    Made mine clearer: [http://s1.directupload.net/file/d/3070/9ween3lc_png.htm]
    
    usr_share:
    
    mirek2: that seems to be a nice balance
    
    mirek2:
    
    again, I see the color-blindness and consistency problems
    
    usr_share:
    
    let the pop-up's color view work as it is now, while the document itself will be changed live
    
    mirek2:
    
    usr_share: well, we discussed it with Astron on the last chat
    
    mirek2:
    
    it's probably not going to be very simple to implement, and it's not really something that we badly need
    
    alexanderW:
    
    ah, now I get it
    
    mirek2:
    
    but sure, it would be a nice touch
    
    usr_share:
    
    mirek2: well, it would be a step in the direction of a better interaction
    
    mirek2:
    
    I'm sorry for coming an hour late -- somehow didn't realize the daylight savings time shift
    
    alexanderW:
    
    Maybe simply skip that feature as long as we don't have live-previews
    
    – astron247 hat den Raum betreten
    
    alexanderW:
    
    Having UTC in the indicator-datetime helps
    
    alexanderW:
    
    it's ok
    
    mirek2:
    
    :)
    
    – michelr hat sich abgemeldet (Quit: michelr)
    
    – michelr hat den Raum betreten
    
    mirek2:
    
    usr_share: sure, live previews are nice, but I don't think they're easy to implement
    
    alexanderW:
    
    Nobody's gonna miss it and we don't need to worry about something that might become obsolete
    
    usr_share:
    
    mirek2: well, NOT having them may make it a bit harder from MSO 2007+ migrants
    
    usr_share:
    
    they are probably very used to that little detail
    
    mirek2:
    
    + tablet users have had to live without live previews (no hover there) and they're fine with that
    
    usr_share:
    
    note: I am not an MSO 2007+ advocate.
    
    – reisi007 hat sich abgemeldet (Remote host closed the connection)
    
    alexanderW:
    
    hi astron
    
    mirek2:
    
    hey astron
    
    astron247:
    
    hi
    
    Medieval:
    
    Live previews are nice, but there are more urgent things to solve
    
    alexanderW:
    
    sure
    
    mirek2:
    
    :) honestly, I don't think we need live previews with colors as long as we actually show the color
    
    astron247:
    
    (just listening for the moment...)
    
    alexanderW:
    
    Would you agree to not add that feature of easily comparing font-color and bg-color in the popup?
    
    mirek2:
    
    the idea behind having a large rectangle filled with the hovered-over color was to make the color stand out and easy to compare
    
    mirek2:
    
    alexanderW: yes -- I would agree not to add it :)
    
    alexanderW:
    
    Alrightr
    
    alexanderW:
    
    -r
    
    alexanderW:
    
    So the rectangle shows the selected color as long as one doesn't hover over anything?
    
    mirek2:
    
    it would also add confusion when e.g. there's text of more than one color inside a shape -- some text may look alright with a new background, some text might be unreadable
    
    usr_share:
    
    oh, actually, it won't be as hard to add live previews
    
    usr_share:
    
    LO only redraws the changing parts of text when changing parameters
    
    michelr:
    
    As i have to use MSO2007 for few days, my first feedback is that live previews can be disturbing sometimes
    
    usr_share:
    
    so, for one thing, it is not going to be a load of CPU load
    
    mirek2:
    
    alexanderW: the rectangle shows the current color of the object until another color is hovered over/in the process of being chosen
    
    alexanderW:
    
    ok, that's how I imagined it
    
    mirek2:
    
    michelr: how so? (haven't used it for years)
    
    michelr:
    
    for ex with texte styles : you just have to hover the mouse above one style in the ribbon and the current text changes
    
    michelr:
    
    th epb is that MSO doesn't wait for an explicit demand from user
    
    mirek2:
    
    ok, so let's not have live preview then
    
    usr_share:
    
    mirek2, michelr: what about introducing a slight delay?
    
    usr_share:
    
    say, 0.5 or 1 second?
    
    astron247:
    
    michelr: afaik, the document isn't permamnently "disfugered" afterwards, though..?
    
    usr_share:
    
    though, that may make it look like the software is just slow
    
    astron247:
    
    usr_share: that makes it even less predictable
    
    mirek2:
    
    yes
    
    astron247:
    
    usr_share: look at what happened to the nicely faded in buttons in impress's sidebar
    
    michelr:
    
    MSO has a delay (0.5 or 1 second), but it doesn't prevent false move of mouse
    
    alexanderW:
    
    astron: the formatting isn't permanent, only applies as long as one hovers over a formatting option
    
    michelr:
    
    I have to leave now , just updated in hurry my dirty prototype ([http://michel.renon.free.fr/libreoffice/20121110/])
    
    alexanderW:
    
    great, thanks
    
    michelr:
    
    I will expand it in next days (with perfect pixel alignments !)
    
    mirek2:
    
    michelr: awesome!
    
    mirek2:
    
    I will draw something for document colors
    
    astron247:
    
    alexanderW: i know, but if implemented wrongly, it _might_ have permanent effects... i was trying to michel about his experience with mso there
    
    mirek2:
    
    and upload the svg
    
    alexanderW:
    
    In Wordpad it doesn'tz
    
    michelr:
    
    thanks, and i'll post general idea in the mailing list, bye
    
    alexanderW:
    
    -z
    
    alexanderW:
    
    bye
    
    mirek2:
    
    bye
    
    alexanderW:
    
    Are we done with the color picker then?
    
    – michelr hat den Raum verlassen
    
    mirek2:
    
    I wanted to bring up two things:
    
    astron247:
    
    i really like michels idea to put the "custom color" tab along with the palettes
    
    astron247:
    
    (just wanted to say)
    
    mirek2:
    
    astron247: you mean from [http://michel.renon.free.fr/libreoffice/20121110/] ?
    
    astron247:
    
    yes
    
    mirek2:
    
    ok
    
    mirek2:
    
    to continue my train of thought: 1) I'd like to contact Gnome and elementary design teams for feedback
    
    astron247:
    
    on..?
    
    mirek2:
    
    (those teams are very design-oriented, and it'd be great if they could tell us what usability problems they see, what we could do to better fit with their platforms, etc.)
    
    mirek2:
    
    on the color picker
    
    astron247:
    
    ah okay.
    
    mirek2:
    
    but also on anything else we do
    
    mirek2:
    
    as I think it'd be good to have close contact with designers of platforms
    
    alexanderW:
    
    If they're interested
    
    mirek2:
    
    it's ok if I contact them via our G+ page?
    
    alexanderW:
    
    maybe rather via irc?
    
    alexanderW:
    
    and if something comes of it announce it
    
    astron247:
    
    i think theyre respnsive on irc (not that i know, but their probably using it regularly at work, so...)
    
    mirek2:
    
    tbh, I'd prefer non-real time chat, as I'd like to get a general and deep opinion of the whole team
    
    mirek2:
    
    rather than a quick opinion from a few of the contributors
    
    alexanderW:
    
    Or email..., but wouldn't do that in the open
    
    mirek2:
    
    why not in the open?
    
    astron247:
    
    mirek2: i dont really think youll get a "team" response – i think theyre too scarce on resources for that
    
    mirek2:
    
    in any case, is it ok if I use our G+ page to contact them?
    
    mirek2:
    
    (I would really feel more comfortable with non-real-time chat in this case)
    
    alexanderW:
    
    Well, it might get hopes up and if they decline it's a bit starange
    
    alexanderW:
    
    *awkward
    
    astron247:
    
    ok, but why do you need the official page? isnt it easier if they know the individual to contact?
    
    mirek2:
    
    just so it would feel official
    
    mirek2:
    
    but if you don't feel comfortable with me using the G+ page, I won't
    
    alexanderW:
    
    How exactly would you imagine the collaboration?
    
    mirek2:
    
    how about this: I'll write a draft of a message I would send them and post it to the mailing list
    
    mirek2:
    
    if there are no objections 24 hours later, I'll send it to them
    
    astron247:
    
    i personally think youre making it too hard – there is absolutely no need to invent more bureaucracy than we already have
    
    mirek2:
    
    alright -- ok if I contact them, then?
    
    mirek2:
    
    the way I imagine it to go:
    
    mirek2:
    
    tell them we would like to cooperate
    
    mirek2:
    
    show them what we're working on, ask what they think of it
    
    mirek2:
    
    whether we could do something to fit with their platform better
    
    mirek2:
    
    see if maybe they'd like to work with us to make sure LibreOffice fits well with their platform
    
    mirek2:
    
    exchange ideas
    
    alexanderW:
    
    sounds good to me
    
    astron247:
    
    okay.
    
    mirek2:
    
    great :)
    
    Medieval:
    
    next topic?
    
    alexanderW:
    
    should we proceed then?
    
    mirek2:
    
    just one tiny thing
    
    mirek2:
    
    with custom colors, what should the color picker show as a label?
    
    alexanderW:
    
    Hexcode?
    
    alexanderW:
    
    maybe check if it's an html color like red, yellow
    
    mirek2:
    
    that was my first thought as well, but it's very technical and not that useful for the user
    
    mirek2:
    
    I was thinking we could have a simple "color translator"
    
    astron247:
    
    the user always sees the colour, though
    
    mirek2:
    
    not a color-blind user
    
    Medieval:
    
    no name tag?
    
    astron247:
    
    #F0F – "light salmon"
    
    mirek2:
    
    which is who the label is primarily for
    
    astron247:
    
    okay, for that wed need hsl
    
    alexanderW:
    
    astron, yes something like that
    
    mirek2:
    
    the translator could be as simple as picking out the ROYGBIV colors + black + white
    
    mirek2:
    
    and attaching "dark" or "light" if necessary
    
    alexanderW:
    
    ROYGBIV?
    
    mirek2:
    
    e.g. 0000CC could show up with a simple "blue" label
    
    mirek2:
    
    red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, violet
    
    mirek2:
    
    the colors of the rainbow
    
    astron247:
    
    [http://hicksdesign.co.uk/journal/hue-saturation-lightness]
    
    Medieval:
    
    But why not Hexcode, its very commonly used
    
    astron247:
    
    10% of western males is colourblind
    
    mirek2:
    
    hexcode is common with developers/designers, but it's not really commonly known
    
    mirek2:
    
    or rather, common color names are always better, if the precise color values are shown above
    
    mirek2:
    
    as per the proposal
    
    mirek2:
    
    [https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Color_Picker]
    
    alexanderW:
    
    So we'd have '#XXXXXX - Less saturated bright yellow' ?
    
    mirek2:
    
    how about just "bright yellow"?
    
    mirek2:
    
    if a person wants the Hex, he should switch to the RGB view, where he can also edit it
    
    alexanderW:
    
    then we'd skip 1/3 of the color information
    
    mirek2:
    
    all the color information still appears above the label
    
    alexanderW:
    
    so one would need to change to the custom color view
    
    alexanderW:
    
    ?
    
    mirek2:
    
    right
    
    alexanderW:
    
    Seems like a good balance
    
    mirek2:
    
    ok
    
    mirek2:
    
    so we all agree on the common-name labels, then?
    
    alexanderW:
    
    I guess
    
    mirek2:
    
    and can move on to the next topic?
    
    astron247:
    
    yes. though, keep in simple, especially for localisers
    
    alexanderW:
    
    Can color-blind people differentiate saturation or lightness bteer?
    
    alexanderW:
    
    *better
    
    Medieval:
    
    yes
    
    astron247:
    
    read the hicksdesign post i linked to :)
    
    Medieval:
    
    i totaly agree
    
    mirek2:
    
    great :)
    
    mirek2:
    
    new topic: 4.0 branding?
    
    astron247:
    
    i.e: "red (light)" might translate well while the nicer "light red" might translate worse
    
    astron247:
    
    ok... 4.0 branding.
    
    mirek2:
    
    ok
    
    Medieval:
    
    ok ... before it
    
    mirek2:
    
    1) it would be good to ship as many new Gnome icons as possible
    
    mirek2:
    
    (by that, I also mean Alex's icons)
    
    mirek2:
    
    alexanderW: what do you think? are the tango_testing icons ready for prime time?
    
    astron247:
    
    tbh, i am not all that happy with all the mixed-in humanity icons.
    
    alexanderW:
    
    many shape icons are still missing
    
    astron247:
    
    they use completely different colours and are also different stylistically
    
    alexanderW:
    
    we could simply skip them if I don't have enough time
    
    mirek2:
    
    ok
    
    alexanderW:
    
    well, there are also galaxy icons and industrial, which don't really fit in either
    
    mirek2:
    
    I think the shape icons are most important, though
    
    mirek2:
    
    the drawing toolbar is an eyesore
    
    alexanderW:
    
    it is
    
    astron247:
    
    alexanderW: yes, but ... we wanted to be better than that, no?
    
    alexanderW:
    
    I can quickly make some blue icons like you requested some time ago
    
    astron247:
    
    (keeping the old broken state is at least no change – doing sth new that's also broken in some ways means people will complain
    
    astron247:
    
    )
    
    alexanderW:
    
    the ting is that the human icon theme contains icons from galaxy
    
    alexanderW:
    
    *thing
    
    astron247:
    
    yes, shnatsel used to care about the human(ity) theme, but doesnt seem to anymore...
    
    alexanderW:
    
    He worked on LibreOffice?
    
    astron247:
    
    on the human theme, yes
    
    astron247:
    
    [http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/log/?qt=author&q=shnatsel]
    
    Medieval:
    
    ubuntu have new theme in 13.04
    
    Medieval:
    
    no humanity anymore
    
    astron247:
    
    right, the one apparently cocreated by daniel fore..?
    
    alexanderW:
    
    they hired the faenza guy
    
    alexanderW:
    
    for the new theme
    
    astron247:
    
    right, not daniel fore.
    
    astron247:
    
    (i never quite got the appeal of faenza – it doesnt really work for me)
    
    astron247:
    
    i digress
    
    mirek2:
    
    :)
    
    Medieval:
    
    i personally used it like 1 year under ubuntu
    
    mirek2:
    
    anyway, what could we have ready in time for 4.0?
    
    mirek2:
    
    I assume we can push the Gnome text formatting icons
    
    mirek2:
    
    (bold, italic, underline, text color, highlight, etc.)
    
    mirek2:
    
    paragraph alignment icons, various Alex's style icons, ...
    
    astron247:
    
    well, the problem with that is that we also need subscript, superscript, bullets and numbering etc etc
    
    alexanderW:
    
    the default writer view should only show gnome icons now
    
    alexanderW:
    
    I did these
    
    astron247:
    
    yes.
    
    mirek2:
    
    did you update the subscript and superscript ones, as the text was a bit too skinny?
    
    alexanderW:
    
    I think I did
    
    alexanderW:
    
    I'll checkl
    
    mirek2:
    
    ok, I just didn't fetch the updates yet
    
    mirek2:
    
    also, what about support for the smaller icon size?
    
    astron247:
    
    right
    
    mirek2:
    
    also, I'm not sure if you noticed, but there was a short discussion on whether to show icons in menus by default on the mailing list
    
    alexanderW:
    
    I think I didn't
    
    mirek2:
    
    under "Options"
    
    astron247:
    
    i think we should try to avoid showing them, as that means, people will expect us to keep icons even for some pretty obscure menu item. of course, on windows, icons in menus are still the default.
    
    mirek2:
    
    we don't have an icon for every menu item, so I don't think people will expect us to have one anytime soon
    
    mirek2:
    
    menus with icons are much more usable than without them
    
    astron247:
    
    we have icons for far too many menu items :)
    
    mirek2:
    
    perhaps we just have too many menu items
    
    astron247:
    
    that is a separate point
    
    astron247:
    
    i any case, even if we had our complete theme deduplicated, it would still be huge and unwieldy
    
    mirek2:
    
    yes
    
    mirek2:
    
    so what should we do?
    
    mirek2:
    
    ideally, I see us gradually eliminating the need to use the menu bar and phasing out the smaller icon size
    
    astron247:
    
    well, first we really need to use xdg-icon-naming, then we should try to deduplicate and then also remove icons
    
    mirek2:
    
    what exactly do you mean by "deduplicate"?
    
    astron247:
    
    (or mayb the other way around)
    
    mirek2:
    
    remove the smaller version?
    
    astron247:
    
    we have many icons that look the same, but are used in different places and thus are separate files
    
    alexanderW:
    
    I think I accidentally removed the new sub/- superscript icons due to a merge conflict
    
    astron247:
    
    – only in zip files (like our themes) you apparently can't use symlinks, so we can't use that for "simplification"
    
    mirek2:
    
    oh, ok
    
    alexanderW:
    
    I'll upload new ones tomorrow or so
    
    astron247:
    
    thanks!
    
    mirek2:
    
    great
    
    – usr_share hat sich abgemeldet (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9)
    
    alexanderW:
    
    are there icons that also have a higher priority?
    
    astron247:
    
    i think you should try to update numbering, so it includes a third line
    
    astron247:
    
    (similar to bullets)
    
    alexanderW:
    
    bullets has 3 rows
    
    alexanderW:
    
    or not?
    
    astron247:
    
    yes, but numbering doesnt
    
    astron247:
    
    (which is inconsistent)
    
    astron247:
    
    also, the distance between the lines is different
    
    alexanderW:
    
    it did this in order to have numbers which are at least a bit recognizable
    
    alexanderW:
    
    it's hard to draw a '2' with 6 pixels or so
    
    astron247:
    
    if 1 and 2 are recognisable, i guess 3 can be allowed to be a bit blurry?
    
    alexanderW:
    
    I'll try
    
    astron247:
    
    thnaks
    
    alexanderW:
    
    should the rows have the same distance as the align-* icons?
    
    astron247:
    
    i think the align icons are trying to portray a single paragraph, while every new bullets is a different paragraph – a bit more space seems fine to me, therefore
    
    mirek2:
    
    do you think we'll be able to get these icons in in time for 4.0?
    
    mirek2:
    
    will we need smaller equivalents, or should we default to large icons and stay with only large versions?
    
    alexanderW:
    
    you mean remove the option or what?
    
    alexanderW:
    
    [http://s1.directupload.net/file/d/3070/59gsi5ls_png.htm]
    
    Medieval:
    
    I am using small icons
    
    alexanderW:
    
    rather wide, but ok I guess
    
    mirek2:
    
    no, just change the default
    
    astron247:
    
    thanks, alex
    
    mirek2:
    
    I like the icon
    
    alexanderW:
    
    currently small is default on win, right?
    
    astron247:
    
    yes
    
    Medieval:
    
    Line spacing icons are weird
    
    alexanderW:
    
    they're the gnome default ones
    
    astron247:
    
    Medieval: why?
    
    Medieval:
    
    They look very different
    
    Medieval:
    
    Screen is coming
    
    alexanderW:
    
    thx
    
    astron247:
    
    what do you mean by "Screen is coming"?
    
    Medieval:
    
    sceenshot*
    
    alexanderW:
    
    *-shot
    
    astron247:
    
    ah okay
    
    alexanderW:
    
    astron, do you know what's up with this stuff:\\\\# Untracked files:\\# (use "git add <file>..." to include in what will be committed)\\#\\# post_download\\# post_download.log\\# solenv/bin/concat-deps\\no changes added to commit (use "git add" and/or "git commit -a")
    
    alexanderW:
    
    I get this even when resetting the repo
    
    Medieval:
    
    under win 7: [http://ubuntuone.com/0LLxiAXF5R2RD9vTFbakVx]
    
    alexanderW:
    
    ahm, we're talking about different ones
    
    astron247:
    
    that are the external deps libreoffice downloads when building – you dont need to commit that.
    
    astron247:
    
    try git status
    
    alexanderW:
    
    did you select tango_testing as icon set?
    
    astron247:
    
    Medieval: those icons are clearly industrial
    
    alexanderW:
    
    they show up when I enter git status
    
    alexanderW:
    
    # On branch master\\# Changes not staged for commit:\\# (use "git add <file>..." to update what will be committed)\\# (use "git checkout -- <file>..." to discard changes in working directory)\\#\\# modified: icon-themes/tango_testing/cmd/lc_defaultbullet-lc_outlinebullet.svg\\#\\# Untracked files:\\# (use "git add <file>..." to include in what will be committed)\\#\\# post_download\\# post_download.log\\# solenv/bin/concat-deps\\no changes added to commit (use "git add" and/or "git commit -a")
    
    astron247:
    
    Alexander: right, then use "git add icon-themes/tango_testing/cmd/lc_defaultbullet-lc_outlinebullet.svg" and ignore the rest
    
    alexanderW:
    
    ok, thanks
    
    alexanderW:
    
    but do I need to git add each new icon?
    
    alexanderW:
    
    in the past I cd'd in to icon-themes and entered git add *
    
    astron247:
    
    you could use "git add ." in the right folder
    
    astron247:
    
    also, you can add the files you dont ever want committed to {repo}/.git/info/exclude
    
    alexanderW:
    
    ok, I guess I'll do that
    
    astron247:
    
    (although i havent yet found out how to really make that trick work)
    
    alexanderW:
    
    any new icons you wouldn't want to ship?
    
    astron247:
    
    i am really unsure about "show draw functions" and "hyperlink"
    
    alexanderW:
    
    the pencil and the chain
    
    astron247:
    
    yes
    
    alexanderW:
    
    which aspects do you dislike?
    
    astron247:
    
    well, both look humanity-y or oxygen-y somehow. i also think the pencil is not the best representation for the drawing tools, as the "edit file" button also has a pencil on it
    
    alexanderW:
    
    the chain looks indeed a bit oxygen-y. maybe I could increase the contrast
    
    alexanderW:
    
    make the brighter and darker outline more visible
    
    alexanderW:
    
    what would you suggest for drawing tools?
    
    astron247:
    
    we used to have a brush before, why not stick with it
    
    astron247:
    
    ?
    
    mirek2:
    
    I had a complaint about the brush
    
    mirek2:
    
    since a brush isn't a drawing tool
    
    mirek2:
    
    it's a painting tool, and there are no painting tools on the drawing toolbar
    
    astron247:
    
    right
    
    astron247:
    
    then instead maybe geometric forms on top of each other..?
    
    alexanderW:
    
    the iwork way?
    
    alexanderW:
    
    [http://static1.channels.com/thumbnails/assets/macmost-com/feeds/2-2050/5290/episodes/5213369_MacMost-Video-Podcast-MacMost-Now-255--Using-Spreadsheet-Formulas-in-iWork-Numbers--jpg]
    
    mirek2:
    
    I guess we could do that
    
    alexanderW:
    
    I kinda like it
    
    mirek2:
    
    I agree with Astron that the pencil, as is, isn't really too indicative of drawing
    
    astron247:
    
    [https://dl.dropbox.com/u/87946285/libreoffice/drawing.png]
    
    astron247:
    
    (as an example from calligra)
    
    astron247:
    
    – mind you, its not used in the exact same sense there
    
    alexanderW:
    
    I like the stencil metaphor
    
    alexanderW:
    
    in iwork
    
    astron247:
    
    iwork's icon is nice (except for the ugly green)
    
    alexanderW:
    
    Yellow like LibO
    
    alexanderW:
    
    draw?
    
    astron247:
    
    [the comment about the green was specific to the green that apple used]
    
    alexanderW:
    
    we'd use a tango-ish one anyway
    
    astron247:
    
    if its a tango colour, i dont really mind so much, although yellow often has bad contrast
    
    alexanderW:
    
    I'll try some combinations
    
    astron247:
    
    cool
    
    mirek2:
    
    btw, here are the noun project's icons: [http://thenounproject.com/noun/drawing/#icon-No3103]
    
    astron247:
    
    i love these guys... always great for stealing a few icons :)
    
    alexanderW:
    
    rather detailed
    
    alexanderW:
    
    ath, there are more
    
    mirek2:
    
    :)
    
    mirek2:
    
    I'm ok with the stencil idea, but if it doesn't work out, there's still hope for a reimagined icon with a pencil
    
    alexanderW:
    
    alright :)
    
    mirek2:
    
    about the current testing icons:
    
    mirek2:
    
    1) would it be possible to use vector graphics for the icons with graphics?
    
    alexanderW:
    
    That's a possible GSoC project
    
    alexanderW:
    
    or do you men the insert-graphic one in particular?
    
    alexanderW:
    
    *mean
    
    mirek2:
    
    yes, that one
    
    mirek2:
    
    + the others that use a photo instead of a vector
    
    alexanderW:
    
    I tried tracing it
    
    – ertai_NL hat sich abgemeldet (Quit: leaving)
    
    alexanderW:
    
    and I tried recreating one by hand
    
    astron247:
    
    which i imagine is very hard.
    
    alexanderW:
    
    yeah
    
    alexanderW:
    
    One still notices the missing details
    
    alexanderW:
    
    one could use an astract motif, though
    
    mirek2:
    
    ok, I was just wondering
    
    astron247:
    
    i think for some things, like textures, etc, creating a vector image is not the best option, and you just need a decent resolution embedded pixel graphic
    
    mirek2:
    
    alright
    
    mirek2:
    
    2) could we please use different icons for outline right/left/up/down?
    
    mirek2:
    
    + movedown, moveup, and decrement level?
    
    mirek2:
    
    btw, isn't decrement level supposed to point in the other direction?
    
    astron247:
    
    is that my fault, actually? if yes, sorry for the pain
    
    alexanderW:
    
    which fault?
    
    astron247:
    
    mirek2: no, the direction is correct (←)
    
    astron247:
    
    mirek2: also, the wording is promote/demote, right..?
    
    mirek2:
    
    astron247: it points in the other direction for me ->
    
    mirek2:
    
    lc_decrementlevel.png , I mean
    
    astron247:
    
    also, decrement is of course demote, therefore: →, yes
    
    astron247:
    
    on a superficial level, i agree, the terminology is consational
    
    mirek2:
    
    consational?
    
    astron247:
    
    ^consational^confusing
    
    alexanderW:
    
    well, it shows in which direction the utem will be moved
    
    alexanderW:
    
    *item
    
    astron247:
    
    right, but the accompanying terminology is imho not clever enough... or maybe too clever
    
    mirek2:
    
    right
    
    alexanderW:
    
    agree
    
    mirek2:
    
    anyway, as I said before, it'd be better to have a different set of icons for moving items than those for navigating the document
    
    mirek2:
    
    what is decrementlevel used for?
    
    astron247:
    
    make a bulleted list and se the toolbar at the bottom
    
    alexanderW:
    
    outline, I'd assume
    
    astron247:
    
    sorry, i am confused. alex is right
    
    astron247:
    
    (there are similar functions available for lists and the document outline)
    
    mirek2:
    
    right
    
    mirek2:
    
    anyway, would it be possible to use different icons?
    
    mirek2:
    
    we already have some for indents
    
    alexanderW:
    
    for lists something like this:\\|_>
    
    alexanderW:
    
    well something like an 'enter' arrow
    
    alexanderW:
    
    |\\|\\| \\\|------\\/
    
    astron247:
    
    i dont quite see it before me yet. but trying wont hurt, i think
    
    astron247:
    
    ...
    
    alexanderW:
    
    [http://i.stack.imgur.com/I5Aqi.png]
    
    alexanderW:
    
    the third one
    
    astron247:
    
    okay, so trying to allude to a file tree..?
    
    alexanderW:
    
    a bit
    
    astron247:
    
    good idea, i think
    
    mirek2:
    
    I'm not too sure about it, but I'm fine with anything
    
    astron247:
    
    i have one more piece of input: it's about the page icons in page preview mode: they really need either some content or dog ears, so theyre recognisable as pieces of paper
    
    mirek2:
    
    about the outline icons: what would outline up/down look like?
    
    alexanderW:
    
    does that change the headline order?
    
    alexanderW:
    
    \\Headline 1\\Headline 2| Apply outline down here\\Headline 3
    
    alexanderW:
    
    Result:\\\\Headline 1\\Headline 3\\Headline 2
    
    mirek2:
    
    I think so
    
    alexanderW:
    
    can't find the toolbar
    
    mirek2:
    
    I know it's in navigator, but that one uses only small icons...
    
    astron247:
    
    right
    
    mirek2:
    
    anyway, I feel maybe I'm bikeshedding a bit here
    
    mirek2:
    
    perhaps we should just lay out what we want to accomplish in time for 4.0?
    
    mirek2:
    
    updated branding, again, but flatter?
    
    mirek2:
    
    Swiss-style?
    
    alexanderW:
    
    I'd hope so
    
    mirek2:
    
    ok
    
    astron247:
    
    right, and we should probably find something whiter for our splash again ...
    
    mirek2:
    
    should we drop Playground, since those have never really worked out, and create a whiteboard for a 4.0 restyle
    
    astron247:
    
    okay
    
    mirek2:
    
    Playgrounds
    
    mirek2:
    
    is it ok if I remove the link to playgrounds from navigation, then?
    
    astron247:
    
    why not just keep the legacy playgrounds around for the time being
    
    astron247:
    
    and just open a 4.0 restyle whiteboard
    
    mirek2:
    
    well, none of the playground are active, and we're actively ignoring them
    
    alexanderW:
    
    Are we looking for a new motif?
    
    mirek2:
    
    I don't think so, at least I hope not
    
    mirek2:
    
    I really like the one we have
    
    astron247:
    
    i dont see any reason to... if we do, i porpose the asanoha pattern...
    
    astron247:
    
    (you probably dont care... [http://www.aisf.or.jp/~jaanus/deta/a/asanoha.htm])
    
    mirek2:
    
    I like it :)
    
    mirek2:
    
    about playgrounds: how about putting them under "archived whiteboards"?
    
    astron247:
    
    okay
    
    alexanderW:
    
    ok
    
    mirek2:
    
    I'd just really like to put them somewhere where people know they're not relevant anymore
    
    mirek2:
    
    ok, great :)
    
    mirek2:
    
    should we have a single 4.0 rebranding whiteboard?
    
    alexanderW:
    
    yes
    
    mirek2:
    
    scope:
    
    mirek2:
    
    * splash screen
    
    alexanderW:
    
    spreading it across several ones doesn't make too much sense
    
    mirek2:
    
    * start center bg
    
    mirek2:
    
    * about dialog
    
    mirek2:
    
    alexanderW: I agree -- that's why I ask
    
    alexanderW:
    
    conference template?
    
    mirek2:
    
    that's not really something we have to have for the 4.0 release
    
    alexanderW:
    
    right
    
    mirek2:
    
    * Swiss design ?
    
    alexanderW:
    
    yes?
    
    mirek2:
    
    anything else?
    
    alexanderW:
    
    website stuff?
    
    alexanderW:
    
    there's not much to be designed, though
    
    alexanderW:
    
    what'd be out of scope?
    
    astron247:
    
    right, the website would probably need a redesign too, but i guess if it comes after the product... is that so gad?
    
    astron247:
    
    ^gad^bad
    
    Medieval:
    
    whats aboutn gallery?
    
    mirek2:
    
    that's not really part of the brand
    
    Medieval:
    
    i know
    
    mirek2:
    
    I agree that the graphics in the gallery suck, but, frankly, I don't think the gallery is useful anymore, no matter what the default graphics look like
    
    alexanderW:
    
    should it be removed from the toolbar?
    
    mirek2:
    
    unless it was used to host clipart by default
    
    mirek2:
    
    I think so
    
    mirek2:
    
    or, rather, hidden by default
    
    mirek2:
    
    not completely removed
    
    alexanderW:
    
    ok
    
    alexanderW:
    
    one task till the next IRC chat
    
    alexanderW:
    
    Should I set up the whiteboard?
    
    mirek2:
    
    if you'd like
    
    alexanderW:
    
    alright
    
    astron247:
    
    okay.
    
    mirek2:
    
    great
    
    alexanderW:
    
    two things I wanted to ask:\\\\* Where are the template manager icons saved?\\\\* Can I ask on the dev ML about changing the default ashape color?
    
    alexanderW:
    
    I guess we could look into the source code to find the icons
    
    mirek2:
    
    about shape color: I know you've asked on ux-advise, but nobody responded; perhaps Astron could mention that on the ESC call, so someone does respond?
    
    mirek2:
    
    wait, you asked only on the design list; go ahead and ask on ux-advise
    
    alexanderW:
    
    ok
    
    alexanderW:
    
    astron, would you be ok with tango blue 1 as fill and tango blue 2 as border?
    
    astron247:
    
    uhm, if we change the palette. we'd probably also have define a new shape colour... so, i think we should get through with the colours and palette first
    
    alexanderW:
    
    I added the two blue hues to the default palette already
    
    astron247:
    
    oh.
    
    astron247:
    
    in that case, sure, ill ask
    
    alexanderW:
    
    Thanks
    
    mirek2:
    
    one more thing: what do you think about the #WeWantODFSupport tag?
    
    astron247:
    
    whats that?
    
    mirek2:
    
    I mentioned it on the list
    
    astron247:
    
    oh
    
    mirek2:
    
    if you listened to the Google speech at the conference, you know that there's a lack of ODF support because there's a lack of visible demand
    
    astron247:
    
    right
    
    mirek2:
    
    so I was thinking we could try to spread the tag on Google+, so Google takes some notice
    
    alexanderW:
    
    How many tags does it take to appear in the list?
    
    mirek2:
    
    don't know
    
    mirek2:
    
    but Google+ in general has a pretty large open-source-favoring community
    
    mirek2:
    
    and there have been some open-source tags trending in the past
    
    mirek2:
    
    Muktware has a relevant article on it, but we could share something else if it seems too harsh
    
    mirek2:
    
    (some of the comments are pretty harsh)
    
    alexanderW:
    
    yeah, I read it
    
    alexanderW:
    
    Could be worth a try
    
    mirek2:
    
    theoretically, we could just share a "GOOGLE, Y U NO SUPPORT ODF" meme picture, but I don't think that would get the point across much
    
    alexanderW:
    
    but I guess people would need to keep that tag trending for quite a while
    
    mirek2:
    
    we just need Google to take notice
    
    mirek2:
    
    I mean, they've always been pretty supportive of open-source project, we just need them to know that a lot of people could really use some ODF support
    
    mirek2:
    
    is it ok to share that through our G+ channel?
    
    astron247:
    
    sure
    
    mirek2:
    
    I feel like that's the only way we could get it to be shared by a large audience
    
    alexanderW:
    
    Maybe coordinate it with Floeff?
    
    mirek2:
    
    great :)
    
    alexanderW:
    
    so that the tdf/libreoffice account asks for support, too
    
    mirek2:
    
    alexanderW: does he run the TDF G+ page?
    
    alexanderW:
    
    doesn't he?
    
    alexanderW:
    
    I assumed it
    
    astron247:
    
    i think he does :)
    
    mirek2:
    
    I guess he does
    
    astron247:
    
    (if its not italo)
    
    alexanderW:
    
    I need to buy some groceries, are you still here in ~10 min?
    
    mirek2:
    
    is there anything else to discuss?
    
    mirek2:
    
    I think we could be done for the day
    
    alexanderW:
    
    the template manager
    
    mirek2:
    
    ok
    
    mirek2:
    
    then sure
    
    mirek2:
    
    but could you upload the log?
    
    mirek2:
    
    as you've been here the longest, I guess
    
    alexanderW:
    
    I will try
    
    alexanderW:
    
    to keep the formatting
    
    mirek2:
    
    ok
    
    alexanderW:
    
    have a nice weekend, everyone
    
    mirek2:
    
    are we meeting in 10 mins?
    
    alexanderW:
    
    if you're still there
    
    mirek2:
    
    ok, I'll be here
    
    astron247:
    
    ok
    
    astron247:
    
    btw, id like to open a windows installer whiteboard, as andras asked for it.
    
    mirek2:
    
    sure, go ahead
    
    astron247:
    
    good :)
    
    alexanderW:
    
    back
    
    astron247:
    
    did you plunder the rewe?
    
    alexanderW:
    
    oh I did :)
    
    alexanderW:
    
    delicious ramen etc
    
    alexanderW:
    
    can we easily find out which icons are missing in the template manager?
    
    astron247:
    
    i guess we can through the commits.
    
    alexanderW:
    
    cause if we ship a new feature it shouldn't look broken
    
    astron247:
    
    the problem is that imho, it's not shippable even with the icons in its current form
    
    alexanderW:
    
    the double-click issue?
    
    astron247:
    
    * it uses double-click, but has no open button
    
    astron247:
    
    * it is modal
    
    astron247:
    
    * it flickers
    
    astron247:
    
    oh, and the old dialogues aren't away yet
    
    mirek2:
    
    I agree
    
    mirek2:
    
    should we meet with the student behind it on the IRC sometime?
    
    astron247:
    
    we can try to invite rafael, yes
    
    astron247:
    
    otherwise, it will probably depend on cedric
    
    astron247:
    
    (who was his mentor iirc)
    
    alexanderW:
    
    can that flickering be fixed?
    
    astron247:
    
    i guess, most things can be fixed. i dont know more than that
    
    alexanderW:
    
    and it'd be nice if a button on top stays depressed if one clicks on it
    
    astron247:
    
    right.
    
    astron247:
    
    also, the selection mode does not work
    
    alexanderW:
    
    i works for me
    
    astron247:
    
    (or rather not any differently than normal selection, making it superfluous)
    
    alexanderW:
    
    should the normal selection be ditched?
    
    alexanderW:
    
    since it's not working on touch devices?
    
    astron247:
    
    i think so. (if the intention still is to make it work with touch
    
    mirek2:
    
    sure
    
    astron247:
    
    (oh, sorry, just noticed, it does make a difference. selection mode makes it possible to click anywhere on the preview, whereas with normal selection you actually have to fish for the tick box
    
    astron247:
    
    )
    
    mirek2:
    
    yes, that was the intended behavior
    
    astron247:
    
    the problem is that the small checkboxes always appear and its thus not clear immediately what the selection mode actually does
    
    mirek2:
    
    yes, I agree
    
    astron247:
    
    also, in the interest of touchability, the ticks should probably be a bit more visible – gnome documents might be overdoing it, but the direction is right
    
    mirek2:
    
    +1
    
    mirek2:
    
    what do you think about the original design?
    
    mirek2:
    
    [https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Templates_and_documents_rework]
    
    astron247:
    
    yes, i know
    
    astron247:
    
    its good (even if i didnt want to have it in libo at first, because its also very different)
    
    mirek2:
    
    To be honest, looking back, I'd remove the "All" tab from categories
    
    mirek2:
    
    it just adds unnecessary complexity
    
    mirek2:
    
    at least with folders
    
    astron247:
    
    i am not 100% sure about the representation of folders as circles, and the modal overlays are maybe a bit complicated
    
    alexanderW:
    
    no overlay at all
    
    alexanderW:
    
    ?
    
    mirek2:
    
    those were things I took from Android, to be honest
    
    mirek2:
    
    didn't want to copy Apple
    
    mirek2:
    
    and the modal overlays seemed more intuitive to me than Apple's folder expansion
    
    mirek2:
    
    I agree that the folder visualization could be better, though
    
    mirek2:
    
    perhaps go the Gnome way, use thumbnails in a rectangle?
    
    astron247:
    
    the problem with apples is that it doesnt really work without animation and it also doesnt work on a desktop at all
    
    astron247:
    
    well, if you set a folder as a photo folder in windows xp 8or later), you'll get a folder images with four previews inside, similar to gnomes tagging implementation
    
    astron247:
    
    [http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/e7c7412409.jpg]
    
    mirek2:
    
    sure, though Gnome's visualization is much better
    
    mirek2:
    
    (that yellow folder icon is really ugly, imho)
    
    astron247:
    
    i know its a bit ugly, i always avoided using it
    
    mirek2:
    
    anyway, sure, we could use that visualization instead
    
    astron247:
    
    the thing i like about ms's visualisation is that it still looks like a good old folder – even if somewhat disfigured
    
    mirek2:
    
    I don't think we need to worry about that much: Android, Mac OS, iOS, Windows, and now Gnome, are all introducing different folder visualisations
    
    mirek2:
    
    oh, and Google services
    
    mirek2:
    
    plus we don't even need to call it folder: it's more like a collection
    
    alexanderW:
    
    Since that might be a bit harder to fix we could move all default templates to their respective root folers for 4.0
    
    mirek2:
    
    which it what it looks like as well
    
    alexanderW:
    
    *folders
    
    alexanderW:
    
    what do you think?
    
    mirek2:
    
    you mean having no folders by default?
    
    alexanderW:
    
    yes
    
    astron247:
    
    sounds like a sensible idea
    
    mirek2:
    
    I agree
    
    mirek2:
    
    I'd also like to talk to Cedric about a dedicated "category" widget
    
    mirek2:
    
    I've been trying to find what it's called in Gnome, but I can't find it
    
    alexanderW:
    
    what do you mean?
    
    mirek2:
    
    I mean the connected button thingy that appears across the top
    
    mirek2:
    
    "All", "Documents", "Presentations", ...
    
    alexanderW:
    
    I think that's not possible with stock gtk
    
    alexanderW:
    
    elementary devs had to extend it with granite to achieve that
    
    mirek2:
    
    it's used in the new Gnome apps
    
    astron247:
    
    it should be possible now
    
    astron247:
    
    as mirek just said
    
    astron247:
    
    still, the more logical representation might have been tabs
    
    alexanderW:
    
    they added it recently?
    
    astron247:
    
    (not as pretty though)
    
    astron247:
    
    probably alreadywith 3.0
    
    alexanderW:
    
    strange
    
    alexanderW:
    
    I haven't seen a single stock gtk app using it
    
    astron247:
    
    or at most 3.4, since douments has been using it at least since
    
    alexanderW:
    
    ah
    
    astron247:
    
    sorry, documents was worng
    
    alexanderW:
    
    i'll install it
    
    astron247:
    
    try it, but its not in there.
    
    astron247:
    
    sorry
    
    mirek2:
    
    Clocks uses it
    
    alexanderW:
    
    gnome-clocks
    
    alexanderW:
    
    ?
    
    mirek2:
    
    yes
    
    alexanderW:
    
    indeed
    
    alexanderW:
    
    would be great if we could use that via vcl
    
    alexanderW:
    
    would have to be emulated on win, though
    
    mirek2:
    
    I think Mac OS has a similar control
    
    astron247:
    
    ah, right, it was clocks!
    
    mirek2:
    
    not sure what it's called there either
    
    astron247:
    
    mac os uses it for normal tab pages, eg. in options windows (but not in tabbed browsers)
    
    astron247:
    
    therefore: these must be tabs...
    
    alexanderW:
    
    I originally chose them for aesthetical reasons
    
    alexanderW:
    
    in order to have then center-aligned
    
    mirek2:
    
    yeah, tabs don't work well for this use-case, imho
    
    mirek2:
    
    ok, so I'll try to contact Cédric about this?
    
    astron247:
    
    ok
    
    alexanderW:
    
    yes
    
    mirek2:
    
    it'd be useful not only for the Templates dialog, but also the custom color section of the color picker pop-up
    
    mirek2:
    
    alright
    
    mirek2:
    
    are we done?
    
    alexanderW:
    
    I think so
    
    astron247:
    
    okay
    
    astron247:
    
    then, a good night to you.
    
    mirek2:
    
    good night
    
    mirek2:
    
    alex, you'll put up the log?
    
    alexanderW:
    
    yes
    
    astron247:
    
    oh, btw, if any of you (alex, mirek) would like to attend the next esc call, tell me now :)
    
    alexanderW:
    
    4 o'clock?
    
    mirek2:
    
    I can't, sorry
    
    astron247:
    
    yes
    
    alexanderW:
    
    I have a lecture that end at 4
    
    alexanderW:
    
    so maybe I could make it
    
    alexanderW:
    
    *ends
    
    astron247:
    
    well, maybe not that great an idea then...
    
    alexanderW:
    
    I could join at 16:15
    
    astron247:
    
    i dont know, then, maybe i better join again, as the ux update is usually quite early on
    
    alexanderW:
    
    alright
    
    alexanderW:
    
    Would it be ok if I shared some icon progress on the G+ page
    
    alexanderW:
    
    there hasen't been an update for quite a while?
    
    astron247:
    
    i think so.
    
    alexanderW:
    
    good
    
    alexanderW:
    
    nice weekend, everyone
    
    mirek2:
    
    see you next week
    
    astron247:
    
    bye