Design/Meetings/2012-11-10

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    Attendees

    • alexanderW
    • Astron
    • Medieval
    • michelr
    • Mirek2
    • usr_share

    Topics

    • Color picker
      • Previews
    • 4.0 Branding
      • Icons
      • Motif, splash, playgrounds, ...
      • Default shape color
    • #WeWantODFSupport
    • Template manager

    Tasks

    Alex:

    • Set up the 4.0 branding whiteboard.

    Astron:

    • Put up the Windows installer whiteboard.

    Mirek2:

    • Contact elementary and Gnome to collaborate.
    • Contact Florian about #WeWantODFSupport

    Log

    alexanderW:

hi

– michelr hat den Raum betreten

alexanderW:

hi

michelr:

hi, did the chat started ?

alexanderW:

not yet

– usr_share hat den Raum betreten

Medieval:

hi

usr_share:

hi

alexanderW:

Should we start discussing?

alexanderW:

ping

Medieval:

yes

usr_share:

ok, i guess...

Medieval:

[https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Color_Picker]

Medieval:

What do you think about our decisions there?

alexanderW:

didn't know there were new mock-ups

usr_share:

I didn't know either

Medieval:

Last week chat: [https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings/2012-11-03]

alexanderW:

Looks good to me

alexanderW:

maybe use a combobox instead of the text on the left

– sophi hat den Raum betreten

usr_share:

dunno, a combo-box wouldn't be as quick to use

michelr:

Yes, on the first view, the text on the left gave me bad informations

usr_share:

and I don't think it'd make much sense in general

Medieval:

Tht was talked about

alexanderW:

why was it changed?

michelr:

I thaught "custom colors" was the title of the first row, "document colors", the title of the second row...

– usr_share ist jetzt bekannt als usr_away

Medieval:

[16:24] <astron247> mirek: i am a bit unsure about floats on floats, i. e. the combo box for different palettes

Medieval:

If Astron or Mirek comes then you can ask from them

alexanderW:

ok

Medieval:

I like the combobox better

Medieval:

(I don

Medieval:

(I donät know why but they allway come 17 UTC)

michelr:

I guess it's just a pb of drawing : instead of a small white triangle, why not draw an horizontal tab ?

alexanderW:

small white triangle?

alexanderW:

I guess because the captions are too long?

michelr:

the triangle that indicate which list of colors is selected (in front of the bold text)

alexanderW:

yes

Medieval:

I think for touch support the list on the left is better that combobox

alexanderW:

probably

michelr:

i don't know what is planned now : start coding ?

alexanderW:

finding a dev

michelr:

i have a suggestion : create prototypes to test and validate before real coding

alexanderW:

html?

– usr_away ist jetzt bekannt als usr_share

michelr:

for ex i create a quick'n'dirty in html+jquery : [http://michel.renon.free.fr/libreoffice/20121110/]

alexanderW:

would be awesome

usr_share:

the "touch support" point is a nice one

alexanderW:

I see grey dots where the white lines cross

alexanderW:

usr_share:

and yeah, a combo box is really an illogical option -- they are designed to provide several choices for a single option, not to open up different ones

alexanderW:

could you expand that prototype to show the other options?

michelr:

i just integrated the image minutes ago ; the content of the menu is just an image without interactivity

alexanderW:

With an imagemap maybe?

usr_share:

now, here come my questions about this idea:

usr_share:

the box at the bottom shows a black/white piece of text on a colored background

usr_share:

that makes sense for "bg color" picker, but not for 'text color'

michelr:

If you find it interesting, i plan to expand it ; and with jquery (or other), we can create very realistic prototypes

usr_share:

maybe for a 'text color' picker, the box should be remade into smth. different?

usr_share:

for example, a "current bg color" box that would show a smaller (20x20) box and the color's name in the hovered 'text color'?

alexanderW:

I think the color bar is there to show the current color

– ertai_NL hat den Raum betreten

usr_share

is trying to illustrate, please wait...

alexanderW:

not neccesarily to show how it looks as bg color

Medieval:

it is there for color

alexanderW:

so if you got a color that's not poart of the currently selected palette you can still access it via the popup

alexanderW:

I don't think it should be removed

alexanderW:

usr: share_that might be something to think about if the current mock-up has been implemented i think

usr_share:

[http://i.imgur.com/CTAug.png]

usr_share:

'cause, say, a bright red would look nice on the top one, but not on the bottom one

usr_share:

keeping the user from selecting a bad color as a text one

usr_share:

while the small box on the left would still give a look of how the color actually looks

alexanderW:

or put a small square inside the color bar

– mirek2 hat den Raum betreten

alexanderW:

the square having the text color

alexanderW:

hi mirek

mirek2:

hello

Medieval:

hi

mirek2:

how are so many people here?

mirek2:

am I missing something?

alexanderW:

Magic

usr_share:

alexanderW: the square doesn't have such a fg/bg "concentration" as a box

mirek2:

:)

usr_share:

there's a reason normal texts are claimed to make only 5% of the paper black

alexanderW:

;)

Medieval:

We are talking about your color picker mockup

mirek2:

alright

alexanderW:

Or make the actually color name have the text color

usr_share:

mirek2: and I'm trying to push an idea, which looks like this: [http://i.imgur.com/CTAug.png] (the piece on the bottom for "text color", on top for "bg / hilight color"

usr_share:

alexanderW: that is intended, yes.

usr_share:

the color name and a box should have the text color.

alexanderW:

so, the name might be hard to read when the contrast is low

usr_share:

alexanderW: yup. thus keeping the user from making bad color decisions

alexanderW:

which box?

alexanderW:

I'll draw smthng

usr_share:

alexanderW: I drew a little 24x24 box at the left of the "color preview" area

mirek2:

is there a certain color you believe would be problematic?

mirek2:

the idea was to use white on dark backgrounds and black on light ones

alexanderW:

For the label?

mirek2:

if you look at the Gnome color picker, they do the same thing, just with a check inside a circle

usr_share:

mirek2: yes, but that would make the user think selecting a text color will change the bg color

mirek2:

yes

usr_share:

*could

mirek2:

I don't think it would

mirek2:

and once he applied it, he'd see that it wouldn't

usr_share:

mirek2: the point is, we can use the interface to tell the user: "you have a white background. putting bright orange text on it is a bad idea."

Medieval:

Its good option if its doable

mirek2:

the box at the bottom shouldn't serve as a preview

mirek2:

actually, its original point was for color-blind users to know what color they're selecting with a label

mirek2:

the color background was added so that the user is immersed in the selected/highlighted color

usr_share

is illustrating some more. Please wait...

– reisi007 hat den Raum betreten

alexanderW:

[http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/90/testgoz.png/]

alexanderW:

left one is the popover for text color the right one for bg-color

mirek2:

the problems I see with using the box for preview are:

alexanderW:

and the caption on the right should read 'lemon' or something

alexanderW:

and the one on the left 'purple' :/

reisi007:

Hi! regular IRC meeting?

alexanderW:

yes

mirek2:

a) color-blind users won't know if they're applying green text to a red background or red text to a red background

usr_share:

(example) [http://ompldr.org/vZzd6ZA/static3.png]

mirek2:

b) sometimes the text would serve as a preview, but most of the time it won't -- that's inconsistent

usr_share:

mirek2: it wouldn't?

usr_share:

in both cases, it would show how would the text look if the color is selected.

usr_share:

(except the "automatic" option) >_<

mirek2:

but you have to remember that a) the label is there primarily for color-blind users

mirek2:

if we show the preview on the document background, a color-blind user won't know if they're using green-on-green or red-on-green, because there won't be enough contrast for him to read the label

mirek2:

b) despite the mockups being focused on font color, they will apply to all sorts of color pickers

mirek2:

(shape fill, stroke color, text highlight, etc.)

alexanderW:

right now you were talking about a seperate box below showing the font color?

mirek2:

oh, I guess I misunderstood the proposal

mirek2:

the proposal to have an additional preview box in the pop-up?

alexanderW:

mine?

alexanderW:

I asked whether you were talking about the one with the additional box

mirek2:

I meant to ask "the proposal was to have an additional preview box in the pop-up?"

alexanderW:

I got a bit lost

mirek2:

me too :)

usr_share:

mirek2: I supposed the preview box on the bottom is supposed to be used for choosing a text color, while bg color will go with a normal one

usr_share:

(that is, one with a box)

mirek2:

my question is: is it supposed to replace the color+label box, or is it an additional element below it?

usr_share:

mirek2: I thought it was supposed to replace the color+label box

usr_share:

but looking at it now, I think this is not the best option

usr_share:

(I apologize)

mirek2:

don't apologize -- all ideas welcome

mirek2:

with pop-ups, it is better to do live preview (i.e. preview as you hover over options in the document itself), because, unlike dialogs, pop-ups don't cover the whole document

alexanderW:

Made mine clearer: [http://s1.directupload.net/file/d/3070/9ween3lc_png.htm]

usr_share:

mirek2: that seems to be a nice balance

mirek2:

again, I see the color-blindness and consistency problems

usr_share:

let the pop-up's color view work as it is now, while the document itself will be changed live

mirek2:

usr_share: well, we discussed it with Astron on the last chat

mirek2:

it's probably not going to be very simple to implement, and it's not really something that we badly need

alexanderW:

ah, now I get it

mirek2:

but sure, it would be a nice touch

usr_share:

mirek2: well, it would be a step in the direction of a better interaction

mirek2:

I'm sorry for coming an hour late -- somehow didn't realize the daylight savings time shift

alexanderW:

Maybe simply skip that feature as long as we don't have live-previews

– astron247 hat den Raum betreten

alexanderW:

Having UTC in the indicator-datetime helps

alexanderW:

it's ok

mirek2:

:)

– michelr hat sich abgemeldet (Quit: michelr)

– michelr hat den Raum betreten

mirek2:

usr_share: sure, live previews are nice, but I don't think they're easy to implement

alexanderW:

Nobody's gonna miss it and we don't need to worry about something that might become obsolete

usr_share:

mirek2: well, NOT having them may make it a bit harder from MSO 2007+ migrants

usr_share:

they are probably very used to that little detail

mirek2:

+ tablet users have had to live without live previews (no hover there) and they're fine with that

usr_share:

note: I am not an MSO 2007+ advocate.

– reisi007 hat sich abgemeldet (Remote host closed the connection)

alexanderW:

hi astron

mirek2:

hey astron

astron247:

hi

Medieval:

Live previews are nice, but there are more urgent things to solve

alexanderW:

sure

mirek2:

:) honestly, I don't think we need live previews with colors as long as we actually show the color

astron247:

(just listening for the moment...)

alexanderW:

Would you agree to not add that feature of easily comparing font-color and bg-color in the popup?

mirek2:

the idea behind having a large rectangle filled with the hovered-over color was to make the color stand out and easy to compare

mirek2:

alexanderW: yes -- I would agree not to add it :)

alexanderW:

Alrightr

alexanderW:

-r

alexanderW:

So the rectangle shows the selected color as long as one doesn't hover over anything?

mirek2:

it would also add confusion when e.g. there's text of more than one color inside a shape -- some text may look alright with a new background, some text might be unreadable

usr_share:

oh, actually, it won't be as hard to add live previews

usr_share:

LO only redraws the changing parts of text when changing parameters

michelr:

As i have to use MSO2007 for few days, my first feedback is that live previews can be disturbing sometimes

usr_share:

so, for one thing, it is not going to be a load of CPU load

mirek2:

alexanderW: the rectangle shows the current color of the object until another color is hovered over/in the process of being chosen

alexanderW:

ok, that's how I imagined it

mirek2:

michelr: how so? (haven't used it for years)

michelr:

for ex with texte styles : you just have to hover the mouse above one style in the ribbon and the current text changes

michelr:

th epb is that MSO doesn't wait for an explicit demand from user

mirek2:

ok, so let's not have live preview then

usr_share:

mirek2, michelr: what about introducing a slight delay?

usr_share:

say, 0.5 or 1 second?

astron247:

michelr: afaik, the document isn't permamnently "disfugered" afterwards, though..?

usr_share:

though, that may make it look like the software is just slow

astron247:

usr_share: that makes it even less predictable

mirek2:

yes

astron247:

usr_share: look at what happened to the nicely faded in buttons in impress's sidebar

michelr:

MSO has a delay (0.5 or 1 second), but it doesn't prevent false move of mouse

alexanderW:

astron: the formatting isn't permanent, only applies as long as one hovers over a formatting option

michelr:

I have to leave now , just updated in hurry my dirty prototype ([http://michel.renon.free.fr/libreoffice/20121110/])

alexanderW:

great, thanks

michelr:

I will expand it in next days (with perfect pixel alignments !)

mirek2:

michelr: awesome!

mirek2:

I will draw something for document colors

astron247:

alexanderW: i know, but if implemented wrongly, it _might_ have permanent effects... i was trying to michel about his experience with mso there

mirek2:

and upload the svg

alexanderW:

In Wordpad it doesn'tz

michelr:

thanks, and i'll post general idea in the mailing list, bye

alexanderW:

-z

alexanderW:

bye

mirek2:

bye

alexanderW:

Are we done with the color picker then?

– michelr hat den Raum verlassen

mirek2:

I wanted to bring up two things:

astron247:

i really like michels idea to put the "custom color" tab along with the palettes

astron247:

(just wanted to say)

mirek2:

astron247: you mean from [http://michel.renon.free.fr/libreoffice/20121110/] ?

astron247:

yes

mirek2:

ok

mirek2:

to continue my train of thought: 1) I'd like to contact Gnome and elementary design teams for feedback

astron247:

on..?

mirek2:

(those teams are very design-oriented, and it'd be great if they could tell us what usability problems they see, what we could do to better fit with their platforms, etc.)

mirek2:

on the color picker

astron247:

ah okay.

mirek2:

but also on anything else we do

mirek2:

as I think it'd be good to have close contact with designers of platforms

alexanderW:

If they're interested

mirek2:

it's ok if I contact them via our G+ page?

alexanderW:

maybe rather via irc?

alexanderW:

and if something comes of it announce it

astron247:

i think theyre respnsive on irc (not that i know, but their probably using it regularly at work, so...)

mirek2:

tbh, I'd prefer non-real time chat, as I'd like to get a general and deep opinion of the whole team

mirek2:

rather than a quick opinion from a few of the contributors

alexanderW:

Or email..., but wouldn't do that in the open

mirek2:

why not in the open?

astron247:

mirek2: i dont really think youll get a "team" response – i think theyre too scarce on resources for that

mirek2:

in any case, is it ok if I use our G+ page to contact them?

mirek2:

(I would really feel more comfortable with non-real-time chat in this case)

alexanderW:

Well, it might get hopes up and if they decline it's a bit starange

alexanderW:

*awkward

astron247:

ok, but why do you need the official page? isnt it easier if they know the individual to contact?

mirek2:

just so it would feel official

mirek2:

but if you don't feel comfortable with me using the G+ page, I won't

alexanderW:

How exactly would you imagine the collaboration?

mirek2:

how about this: I'll write a draft of a message I would send them and post it to the mailing list

mirek2:

if there are no objections 24 hours later, I'll send it to them

astron247:

i personally think youre making it too hard – there is absolutely no need to invent more bureaucracy than we already have

mirek2:

alright -- ok if I contact them, then?

mirek2:

the way I imagine it to go:

mirek2:

tell them we would like to cooperate

mirek2:

show them what we're working on, ask what they think of it

mirek2:

whether we could do something to fit with their platform better

mirek2:

see if maybe they'd like to work with us to make sure LibreOffice fits well with their platform

mirek2:

exchange ideas

alexanderW:

sounds good to me

astron247:

okay.

mirek2:

great :)

Medieval:

next topic?

alexanderW:

should we proceed then?

mirek2:

just one tiny thing

mirek2:

with custom colors, what should the color picker show as a label?

alexanderW:

Hexcode?

alexanderW:

maybe check if it's an html color like red, yellow

mirek2:

that was my first thought as well, but it's very technical and not that useful for the user

mirek2:

I was thinking we could have a simple "color translator"

astron247:

the user always sees the colour, though

mirek2:

not a color-blind user

Medieval:

no name tag?

astron247:

#F0F – "light salmon"

mirek2:

which is who the label is primarily for

astron247:

okay, for that wed need hsl

alexanderW:

astron, yes something like that

mirek2:

the translator could be as simple as picking out the ROYGBIV colors + black + white

mirek2:

and attaching "dark" or "light" if necessary

alexanderW:

ROYGBIV?

mirek2:

e.g. 0000CC could show up with a simple "blue" label

mirek2:

red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, violet

mirek2:

the colors of the rainbow

astron247:

[http://hicksdesign.co.uk/journal/hue-saturation-lightness]

Medieval:

But why not Hexcode, its very commonly used

astron247:

10% of western males is colourblind

mirek2:

hexcode is common with developers/designers, but it's not really commonly known

mirek2:

or rather, common color names are always better, if the precise color values are shown above

mirek2:

as per the proposal

mirek2:

[https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Color_Picker]

alexanderW:

So we'd have '#XXXXXX - Less saturated bright yellow' ?

mirek2:

how about just "bright yellow"?

mirek2:

if a person wants the Hex, he should switch to the RGB view, where he can also edit it

alexanderW:

then we'd skip 1/3 of the color information

mirek2:

all the color information still appears above the label

alexanderW:

so one would need to change to the custom color view

alexanderW:

?

mirek2:

right

alexanderW:

Seems like a good balance

mirek2:

ok

mirek2:

so we all agree on the common-name labels, then?

alexanderW:

I guess

mirek2:

and can move on to the next topic?

astron247:

yes. though, keep in simple, especially for localisers

alexanderW:

Can color-blind people differentiate saturation or lightness bteer?

alexanderW:

*better

Medieval:

yes

astron247:

read the hicksdesign post i linked to :)

Medieval:

i totaly agree

mirek2:

great :)

mirek2:

new topic: 4.0 branding?

astron247:

i.e: "red (light)" might translate well while the nicer "light red" might translate worse

astron247:

ok... 4.0 branding.

mirek2:

ok

Medieval:

ok ... before it

mirek2:

1) it would be good to ship as many new Gnome icons as possible

mirek2:

(by that, I also mean Alex's icons)

mirek2:

alexanderW: what do you think? are the tango_testing icons ready for prime time?

astron247:

tbh, i am not all that happy with all the mixed-in humanity icons.

alexanderW:

many shape icons are still missing

astron247:

they use completely different colours and are also different stylistically

alexanderW:

we could simply skip them if I don't have enough time

mirek2:

ok

alexanderW:

well, there are also galaxy icons and industrial, which don't really fit in either

mirek2:

I think the shape icons are most important, though

mirek2:

the drawing toolbar is an eyesore

alexanderW:

it is

astron247:

alexanderW: yes, but ... we wanted to be better than that, no?

alexanderW:

I can quickly make some blue icons like you requested some time ago

astron247:

(keeping the old broken state is at least no change – doing sth new that's also broken in some ways means people will complain

astron247:

)

alexanderW:

the ting is that the human icon theme contains icons from galaxy

alexanderW:

*thing

astron247:

yes, shnatsel used to care about the human(ity) theme, but doesnt seem to anymore...

alexanderW:

He worked on LibreOffice?

astron247:

on the human theme, yes

astron247:

[http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/log/?qt=author&q=shnatsel]

Medieval:

ubuntu have new theme in 13.04

Medieval:

no humanity anymore

astron247:

right, the one apparently cocreated by daniel fore..?

alexanderW:

they hired the faenza guy

alexanderW:

for the new theme

astron247:

right, not daniel fore.

astron247:

(i never quite got the appeal of faenza – it doesnt really work for me)

astron247:

i digress

mirek2:

:)

Medieval:

i personally used it like 1 year under ubuntu

mirek2:

anyway, what could we have ready in time for 4.0?

mirek2:

I assume we can push the Gnome text formatting icons

mirek2:

(bold, italic, underline, text color, highlight, etc.)

mirek2:

paragraph alignment icons, various Alex's style icons, ...

astron247:

well, the problem with that is that we also need subscript, superscript, bullets and numbering etc etc

alexanderW:

the default writer view should only show gnome icons now

alexanderW:

I did these

astron247:

yes.

mirek2:

did you update the subscript and superscript ones, as the text was a bit too skinny?

alexanderW:

I think I did

alexanderW:

I'll checkl

mirek2:

ok, I just didn't fetch the updates yet

mirek2:

also, what about support for the smaller icon size?

astron247:

right

mirek2:

also, I'm not sure if you noticed, but there was a short discussion on whether to show icons in menus by default on the mailing list

alexanderW:

I think I didn't

mirek2:

under "Options"

astron247:

i think we should try to avoid showing them, as that means, people will expect us to keep icons even for some pretty obscure menu item. of course, on windows, icons in menus are still the default.

mirek2:

we don't have an icon for every menu item, so I don't think people will expect us to have one anytime soon

mirek2:

menus with icons are much more usable than without them

astron247:

we have icons for far too many menu items :)

mirek2:

perhaps we just have too many menu items

astron247:

that is a separate point

astron247:

i any case, even if we had our complete theme deduplicated, it would still be huge and unwieldy

mirek2:

yes

mirek2:

so what should we do?

mirek2:

ideally, I see us gradually eliminating the need to use the menu bar and phasing out the smaller icon size

astron247:

well, first we really need to use xdg-icon-naming, then we should try to deduplicate and then also remove icons

mirek2:

what exactly do you mean by "deduplicate"?

astron247:

(or mayb the other way around)

mirek2:

remove the smaller version?

astron247:

we have many icons that look the same, but are used in different places and thus are separate files

alexanderW:

I think I accidentally removed the new sub/- superscript icons due to a merge conflict

astron247:

– only in zip files (like our themes) you apparently can't use symlinks, so we can't use that for "simplification"

mirek2:

oh, ok

alexanderW:

I'll upload new ones tomorrow or so

astron247:

thanks!

mirek2:

great

– usr_share hat sich abgemeldet (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9)

alexanderW:

are there icons that also have a higher priority?

astron247:

i think you should try to update numbering, so it includes a third line

astron247:

(similar to bullets)

alexanderW:

bullets has 3 rows

alexanderW:

or not?

astron247:

yes, but numbering doesnt

astron247:

(which is inconsistent)

astron247:

also, the distance between the lines is different

alexanderW:

it did this in order to have numbers which are at least a bit recognizable

alexanderW:

it's hard to draw a '2' with 6 pixels or so

astron247:

if 1 and 2 are recognisable, i guess 3 can be allowed to be a bit blurry?

alexanderW:

I'll try

astron247:

thnaks

alexanderW:

should the rows have the same distance as the align-* icons?

astron247:

i think the align icons are trying to portray a single paragraph, while every new bullets is a different paragraph – a bit more space seems fine to me, therefore

mirek2:

do you think we'll be able to get these icons in in time for 4.0?

mirek2:

will we need smaller equivalents, or should we default to large icons and stay with only large versions?

alexanderW:

you mean remove the option or what?

alexanderW:

[http://s1.directupload.net/file/d/3070/59gsi5ls_png.htm]

Medieval:

I am using small icons

alexanderW:

rather wide, but ok I guess

mirek2:

no, just change the default

astron247:

thanks, alex

mirek2:

I like the icon

alexanderW:

currently small is default on win, right?

astron247:

yes

Medieval:

Line spacing icons are weird

alexanderW:

they're the gnome default ones

astron247:

Medieval: why?

Medieval:

They look very different

Medieval:

Screen is coming

alexanderW:

thx

astron247:

what do you mean by "Screen is coming"?

Medieval:

sceenshot*

alexanderW:

*-shot

astron247:

ah okay

alexanderW:

astron, do you know what's up with this stuff:\\\\# Untracked files:\\# (use "git add <file>..." to include in what will be committed)\\#\\# post_download\\# post_download.log\\# solenv/bin/concat-deps\\no changes added to commit (use "git add" and/or "git commit -a")

alexanderW:

I get this even when resetting the repo

Medieval:

under win 7: [http://ubuntuone.com/0LLxiAXF5R2RD9vTFbakVx]

alexanderW:

ahm, we're talking about different ones

astron247:

that are the external deps libreoffice downloads when building – you dont need to commit that.

astron247:

try git status

alexanderW:

did you select tango_testing as icon set?

astron247:

Medieval: those icons are clearly industrial

alexanderW:

they show up when I enter git status

alexanderW:

# On branch master\\# Changes not staged for commit:\\# (use "git add <file>..." to update what will be committed)\\# (use "git checkout -- <file>..." to discard changes in working directory)\\#\\# modified: icon-themes/tango_testing/cmd/lc_defaultbullet-lc_outlinebullet.svg\\#\\# Untracked files:\\# (use "git add <file>..." to include in what will be committed)\\#\\# post_download\\# post_download.log\\# solenv/bin/concat-deps\\no changes added to commit (use "git add" and/or "git commit -a")

astron247:

Alexander: right, then use "git add icon-themes/tango_testing/cmd/lc_defaultbullet-lc_outlinebullet.svg" and ignore the rest

alexanderW:

ok, thanks

alexanderW:

but do I need to git add each new icon?

alexanderW:

in the past I cd'd in to icon-themes and entered git add *

astron247:

you could use "git add ." in the right folder

astron247:

also, you can add the files you dont ever want committed to {repo}/.git/info/exclude

alexanderW:

ok, I guess I'll do that

astron247:

(although i havent yet found out how to really make that trick work)

alexanderW:

any new icons you wouldn't want to ship?

astron247:

i am really unsure about "show draw functions" and "hyperlink"

alexanderW:

the pencil and the chain

astron247:

yes

alexanderW:

which aspects do you dislike?

astron247:

well, both look humanity-y or oxygen-y somehow. i also think the pencil is not the best representation for the drawing tools, as the "edit file" button also has a pencil on it

alexanderW:

the chain looks indeed a bit oxygen-y. maybe I could increase the contrast

alexanderW:

make the brighter and darker outline more visible

alexanderW:

what would you suggest for drawing tools?

astron247:

we used to have a brush before, why not stick with it

astron247:

?

mirek2:

I had a complaint about the brush

mirek2:

since a brush isn't a drawing tool

mirek2:

it's a painting tool, and there are no painting tools on the drawing toolbar

astron247:

right

astron247:

then instead maybe geometric forms on top of each other..?

alexanderW:

the iwork way?

alexanderW:

[http://static1.channels.com/thumbnails/assets/macmost-com/feeds/2-2050/5290/episodes/5213369_MacMost-Video-Podcast-MacMost-Now-255--Using-Spreadsheet-Formulas-in-iWork-Numbers--jpg]

mirek2:

I guess we could do that

alexanderW:

I kinda like it

mirek2:

I agree with Astron that the pencil, as is, isn't really too indicative of drawing

astron247:

[https://dl.dropbox.com/u/87946285/libreoffice/drawing.png]

astron247:

(as an example from calligra)

astron247:

– mind you, its not used in the exact same sense there

alexanderW:

I like the stencil metaphor

alexanderW:

in iwork

astron247:

iwork's icon is nice (except for the ugly green)

alexanderW:

Yellow like LibO

alexanderW:

draw?

astron247:

[the comment about the green was specific to the green that apple used]

alexanderW:

we'd use a tango-ish one anyway

astron247:

if its a tango colour, i dont really mind so much, although yellow often has bad contrast

alexanderW:

I'll try some combinations

astron247:

cool

mirek2:

btw, here are the noun project's icons: [http://thenounproject.com/noun/drawing/#icon-No3103]

astron247:

i love these guys... always great for stealing a few icons :)

alexanderW:

rather detailed

alexanderW:

ath, there are more

mirek2:

:)

mirek2:

I'm ok with the stencil idea, but if it doesn't work out, there's still hope for a reimagined icon with a pencil

alexanderW:

alright :)

mirek2:

about the current testing icons:

mirek2:

1) would it be possible to use vector graphics for the icons with graphics?

alexanderW:

That's a possible GSoC project

alexanderW:

or do you men the insert-graphic one in particular?

alexanderW:

*mean

mirek2:

yes, that one

mirek2:

+ the others that use a photo instead of a vector

alexanderW:

I tried tracing it

– ertai_NL hat sich abgemeldet (Quit: leaving)

alexanderW:

and I tried recreating one by hand

astron247:

which i imagine is very hard.

alexanderW:

yeah

alexanderW:

One still notices the missing details

alexanderW:

one could use an astract motif, though

mirek2:

ok, I was just wondering

astron247:

i think for some things, like textures, etc, creating a vector image is not the best option, and you just need a decent resolution embedded pixel graphic

mirek2:

alright

mirek2:

2) could we please use different icons for outline right/left/up/down?

mirek2:

+ movedown, moveup, and decrement level?

mirek2:

btw, isn't decrement level supposed to point in the other direction?

astron247:

is that my fault, actually? if yes, sorry for the pain

alexanderW:

which fault?

astron247:

mirek2: no, the direction is correct (←)

astron247:

mirek2: also, the wording is promote/demote, right..?

mirek2:

astron247: it points in the other direction for me ->

mirek2:

lc_decrementlevel.png , I mean

astron247:

also, decrement is of course demote, therefore: →, yes

astron247:

on a superficial level, i agree, the terminology is consational

mirek2:

consational?

astron247:

^consational^confusing

alexanderW:

well, it shows in which direction the utem will be moved

alexanderW:

*item

astron247:

right, but the accompanying terminology is imho not clever enough... or maybe too clever

mirek2:

right

alexanderW:

agree

mirek2:

anyway, as I said before, it'd be better to have a different set of icons for moving items than those for navigating the document

mirek2:

what is decrementlevel used for?

astron247:

make a bulleted list and se the toolbar at the bottom

alexanderW:

outline, I'd assume

astron247:

sorry, i am confused. alex is right

astron247:

(there are similar functions available for lists and the document outline)

mirek2:

right

mirek2:

anyway, would it be possible to use different icons?

mirek2:

we already have some for indents

alexanderW:

for lists something like this:\\|_>

alexanderW:

well something like an 'enter' arrow

alexanderW:

|\\|\\| \\\|------\\/

astron247:

i dont quite see it before me yet. but trying wont hurt, i think

astron247:

...

alexanderW:

[http://i.stack.imgur.com/I5Aqi.png]

alexanderW:

the third one

astron247:

okay, so trying to allude to a file tree..?

alexanderW:

a bit

astron247:

good idea, i think

mirek2:

I'm not too sure about it, but I'm fine with anything

astron247:

i have one more piece of input: it's about the page icons in page preview mode: they really need either some content or dog ears, so theyre recognisable as pieces of paper

mirek2:

about the outline icons: what would outline up/down look like?

alexanderW:

does that change the headline order?

alexanderW:

\\Headline 1\\Headline 2| Apply outline down here\\Headline 3

alexanderW:

Result:\\\\Headline 1\\Headline 3\\Headline 2

mirek2:

I think so

alexanderW:

can't find the toolbar

mirek2:

I know it's in navigator, but that one uses only small icons...

astron247:

right

mirek2:

anyway, I feel maybe I'm bikeshedding a bit here

mirek2:

perhaps we should just lay out what we want to accomplish in time for 4.0?

mirek2:

updated branding, again, but flatter?

mirek2:

Swiss-style?

alexanderW:

I'd hope so

mirek2:

ok

astron247:

right, and we should probably find something whiter for our splash again ...

mirek2:

should we drop Playground, since those have never really worked out, and create a whiteboard for a 4.0 restyle

astron247:

okay

mirek2:

Playgrounds

mirek2:

is it ok if I remove the link to playgrounds from navigation, then?

astron247:

why not just keep the legacy playgrounds around for the time being

astron247:

and just open a 4.0 restyle whiteboard

mirek2:

well, none of the playground are active, and we're actively ignoring them

alexanderW:

Are we looking for a new motif?

mirek2:

I don't think so, at least I hope not

mirek2:

I really like the one we have

astron247:

i dont see any reason to... if we do, i porpose the asanoha pattern...

astron247:

(you probably dont care... [http://www.aisf.or.jp/~jaanus/deta/a/asanoha.htm])

mirek2:

I like it :)

mirek2:

about playgrounds: how about putting them under "archived whiteboards"?

astron247:

okay

alexanderW:

ok

mirek2:

I'd just really like to put them somewhere where people know they're not relevant anymore

mirek2:

ok, great :)

mirek2:

should we have a single 4.0 rebranding whiteboard?

alexanderW:

yes

mirek2:

scope:

mirek2:

* splash screen

alexanderW:

spreading it across several ones doesn't make too much sense

mirek2:

* start center bg

mirek2:

* about dialog

mirek2:

alexanderW: I agree -- that's why I ask

alexanderW:

conference template?

mirek2:

that's not really something we have to have for the 4.0 release

alexanderW:

right

mirek2:

* Swiss design ?

alexanderW:

yes?

mirek2:

anything else?

alexanderW:

website stuff?

alexanderW:

there's not much to be designed, though

alexanderW:

what'd be out of scope?

astron247:

right, the website would probably need a redesign too, but i guess if it comes after the product... is that so gad?

astron247:

^gad^bad

Medieval:

whats aboutn gallery?

mirek2:

that's not really part of the brand

Medieval:

i know

mirek2:

I agree that the graphics in the gallery suck, but, frankly, I don't think the gallery is useful anymore, no matter what the default graphics look like

alexanderW:

should it be removed from the toolbar?

mirek2:

unless it was used to host clipart by default

mirek2:

I think so

mirek2:

or, rather, hidden by default

mirek2:

not completely removed

alexanderW:

ok

alexanderW:

one task till the next IRC chat

alexanderW:

Should I set up the whiteboard?

mirek2:

if you'd like

alexanderW:

alright

astron247:

okay.

mirek2:

great

alexanderW:

two things I wanted to ask:\\\\* Where are the template manager icons saved?\\\\* Can I ask on the dev ML about changing the default ashape color?

alexanderW:

I guess we could look into the source code to find the icons

mirek2:

about shape color: I know you've asked on ux-advise, but nobody responded; perhaps Astron could mention that on the ESC call, so someone does respond?

mirek2:

wait, you asked only on the design list; go ahead and ask on ux-advise

alexanderW:

ok

alexanderW:

astron, would you be ok with tango blue 1 as fill and tango blue 2 as border?

astron247:

uhm, if we change the palette. we'd probably also have define a new shape colour... so, i think we should get through with the colours and palette first

alexanderW:

I added the two blue hues to the default palette already

astron247:

oh.

astron247:

in that case, sure, ill ask

alexanderW:

Thanks

mirek2:

one more thing: what do you think about the #WeWantODFSupport tag?

astron247:

whats that?

mirek2:

I mentioned it on the list

astron247:

oh

mirek2:

if you listened to the Google speech at the conference, you know that there's a lack of ODF support because there's a lack of visible demand

astron247:

right

mirek2:

so I was thinking we could try to spread the tag on Google+, so Google takes some notice

alexanderW:

How many tags does it take to appear in the list?

mirek2:

don't know

mirek2:

but Google+ in general has a pretty large open-source-favoring community

mirek2:

and there have been some open-source tags trending in the past

mirek2:

Muktware has a relevant article on it, but we could share something else if it seems too harsh

mirek2:

(some of the comments are pretty harsh)

alexanderW:

yeah, I read it

alexanderW:

Could be worth a try

mirek2:

theoretically, we could just share a "GOOGLE, Y U NO SUPPORT ODF" meme picture, but I don't think that would get the point across much

alexanderW:

but I guess people would need to keep that tag trending for quite a while

mirek2:

we just need Google to take notice

mirek2:

I mean, they've always been pretty supportive of open-source project, we just need them to know that a lot of people could really use some ODF support

mirek2:

is it ok to share that through our G+ channel?

astron247:

sure

mirek2:

I feel like that's the only way we could get it to be shared by a large audience

alexanderW:

Maybe coordinate it with Floeff?

mirek2:

great :)

alexanderW:

so that the tdf/libreoffice account asks for support, too

mirek2:

alexanderW: does he run the TDF G+ page?

alexanderW:

doesn't he?

alexanderW:

I assumed it

astron247:

i think he does :)

mirek2:

I guess he does

astron247:

(if its not italo)

alexanderW:

I need to buy some groceries, are you still here in ~10 min?

mirek2:

is there anything else to discuss?

mirek2:

I think we could be done for the day

alexanderW:

the template manager

mirek2:

ok

mirek2:

then sure

mirek2:

but could you upload the log?

mirek2:

as you've been here the longest, I guess

alexanderW:

I will try

alexanderW:

to keep the formatting

mirek2:

ok

alexanderW:

have a nice weekend, everyone

mirek2:

are we meeting in 10 mins?

alexanderW:

if you're still there

mirek2:

ok, I'll be here

astron247:

ok

astron247:

btw, id like to open a windows installer whiteboard, as andras asked for it.

mirek2:

sure, go ahead

astron247:

good :)

alexanderW:

back

astron247:

did you plunder the rewe?

alexanderW:

oh I did :)

alexanderW:

delicious ramen etc

alexanderW:

can we easily find out which icons are missing in the template manager?

astron247:

i guess we can through the commits.

alexanderW:

cause if we ship a new feature it shouldn't look broken

astron247:

the problem is that imho, it's not shippable even with the icons in its current form

alexanderW:

the double-click issue?

astron247:

* it uses double-click, but has no open button

astron247:

* it is modal

astron247:

* it flickers

astron247:

oh, and the old dialogues aren't away yet

mirek2:

I agree

mirek2:

should we meet with the student behind it on the IRC sometime?

astron247:

we can try to invite rafael, yes

astron247:

otherwise, it will probably depend on cedric

astron247:

(who was his mentor iirc)

alexanderW:

can that flickering be fixed?

astron247:

i guess, most things can be fixed. i dont know more than that

alexanderW:

and it'd be nice if a button on top stays depressed if one clicks on it

astron247:

right.

astron247:

also, the selection mode does not work

alexanderW:

i works for me

astron247:

(or rather not any differently than normal selection, making it superfluous)

alexanderW:

should the normal selection be ditched?

alexanderW:

since it's not working on touch devices?

astron247:

i think so. (if the intention still is to make it work with touch

mirek2:

sure

astron247:

(oh, sorry, just noticed, it does make a difference. selection mode makes it possible to click anywhere on the preview, whereas with normal selection you actually have to fish for the tick box

astron247:

)

mirek2:

yes, that was the intended behavior

astron247:

the problem is that the small checkboxes always appear and its thus not clear immediately what the selection mode actually does

mirek2:

yes, I agree

astron247:

also, in the interest of touchability, the ticks should probably be a bit more visible – gnome documents might be overdoing it, but the direction is right

mirek2:

+1

mirek2:

what do you think about the original design?

mirek2:

[https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Templates_and_documents_rework]

astron247:

yes, i know

astron247:

its good (even if i didnt want to have it in libo at first, because its also very different)

mirek2:

To be honest, looking back, I'd remove the "All" tab from categories

mirek2:

it just adds unnecessary complexity

mirek2:

at least with folders

astron247:

i am not 100% sure about the representation of folders as circles, and the modal overlays are maybe a bit complicated

alexanderW:

no overlay at all

alexanderW:

?

mirek2:

those were things I took from Android, to be honest

mirek2:

didn't want to copy Apple

mirek2:

and the modal overlays seemed more intuitive to me than Apple's folder expansion

mirek2:

I agree that the folder visualization could be better, though

mirek2:

perhaps go the Gnome way, use thumbnails in a rectangle?

astron247:

the problem with apples is that it doesnt really work without animation and it also doesnt work on a desktop at all

astron247:

well, if you set a folder as a photo folder in windows xp 8or later), you'll get a folder images with four previews inside, similar to gnomes tagging implementation

astron247:

[http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/e7c7412409.jpg]

mirek2:

sure, though Gnome's visualization is much better

mirek2:

(that yellow folder icon is really ugly, imho)

astron247:

i know its a bit ugly, i always avoided using it

mirek2:

anyway, sure, we could use that visualization instead

astron247:

the thing i like about ms's visualisation is that it still looks like a good old folder – even if somewhat disfigured

mirek2:

I don't think we need to worry about that much: Android, Mac OS, iOS, Windows, and now Gnome, are all introducing different folder visualisations

mirek2:

oh, and Google services

mirek2:

plus we don't even need to call it folder: it's more like a collection

alexanderW:

Since that might be a bit harder to fix we could move all default templates to their respective root folers for 4.0

mirek2:

which it what it looks like as well

alexanderW:

*folders

alexanderW:

what do you think?

mirek2:

you mean having no folders by default?

alexanderW:

yes

astron247:

sounds like a sensible idea

mirek2:

I agree

mirek2:

I'd also like to talk to Cedric about a dedicated "category" widget

mirek2:

I've been trying to find what it's called in Gnome, but I can't find it

alexanderW:

what do you mean?

mirek2:

I mean the connected button thingy that appears across the top

mirek2:

"All", "Documents", "Presentations", ...

alexanderW:

I think that's not possible with stock gtk

alexanderW:

elementary devs had to extend it with granite to achieve that

mirek2:

it's used in the new Gnome apps

astron247:

it should be possible now

astron247:

as mirek just said

astron247:

still, the more logical representation might have been tabs

alexanderW:

they added it recently?

astron247:

(not as pretty though)

astron247:

probably alreadywith 3.0

alexanderW:

strange

alexanderW:

I haven't seen a single stock gtk app using it

astron247:

or at most 3.4, since douments has been using it at least since

alexanderW:

ah

astron247:

sorry, documents was worng

alexanderW:

i'll install it

astron247:

try it, but its not in there.

astron247:

sorry

mirek2:

Clocks uses it

alexanderW:

gnome-clocks

alexanderW:

?

mirek2:

yes

alexanderW:

indeed

alexanderW:

would be great if we could use that via vcl

alexanderW:

would have to be emulated on win, though

mirek2:

I think Mac OS has a similar control

astron247:

ah, right, it was clocks!

mirek2:

not sure what it's called there either

astron247:

mac os uses it for normal tab pages, eg. in options windows (but not in tabbed browsers)

astron247:

therefore: these must be tabs...

alexanderW:

I originally chose them for aesthetical reasons

alexanderW:

in order to have then center-aligned

mirek2:

yeah, tabs don't work well for this use-case, imho

mirek2:

ok, so I'll try to contact Cédric about this?

astron247:

ok

alexanderW:

yes

mirek2:

it'd be useful not only for the Templates dialog, but also the custom color section of the color picker pop-up

mirek2:

alright

mirek2:

are we done?

alexanderW:

I think so

astron247:

okay

astron247:

then, a good night to you.

mirek2:

good night

mirek2:

alex, you'll put up the log?

alexanderW:

yes

astron247:

oh, btw, if any of you (alex, mirek) would like to attend the next esc call, tell me now :)

alexanderW:

4 o'clock?

mirek2:

I can't, sorry

astron247:

yes

alexanderW:

I have a lecture that end at 4

alexanderW:

so maybe I could make it

alexanderW:

*ends

astron247:

well, maybe not that great an idea then...

alexanderW:

I could join at 16:15

astron247:

i dont know, then, maybe i better join again, as the ux update is usually quite early on

alexanderW:

alright

alexanderW:

Would it be ok if I shared some icon progress on the G+ page

alexanderW:

there hasen't been an update for quite a while?

astron247:

i think so.

alexanderW:

good

alexanderW:

nice weekend, everyone

mirek2:

see you next week

astron247:

bye
    Retrieved from "https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/index.php?title=Design/Meetings/2012-11-10&oldid=122788"