Design/Meetings/2012-12-29

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Attendees

alexanderW
Astron
michelr
mirek2
Topics

Template dialog
4.0 Branding
Color picker
Tasks

Astron
Mock up how the path bar could be better integrated
Mirek2
Ask for template dialog feedback on Google+
Ask for branding suggestions on mailing list
Ask if custom color could be changed live
Log

[17:30] <mirek2> hi alex
[17:30] <mirek2> sorry for being so late
[17:31] <mirek2> did anyone else come within the first 30 minutes?
[17:34] <@alexanderW> hi
[17:34] <@alexanderW> I cam online at around a quarter after 5
[17:34] <@alexanderW> *came
[17:35] <@alexanderW> And nobody else was online as far as i can tell
[17:35] <mirek2> alright
[17:35] <mirek2> well, let's get started
[17:35] <mirek2> unfortunately, I haven't been able to build the newest build, and rather than attempt to build again, I gave up
[17:36] <mirek2> so I can't comment on the new iteration on the templates manager
[17:36] <mirek2> which is too bad, because, if we want to ship this feature in 4.0, we should be focusing our efforts on spit and polish right now
[17:37] <@alexanderW> You could install the daily build
[17:38] <@alexanderW> You mean the build of version 4?
[17:38] <mirek2> yup
[17:38] <mirek2> on my computer, it takes a really long time to build
[17:38] <mirek2> and my latest build failed for some reason
[17:39] <@alexanderW> https://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/libreoffice-4-0/Linux-x86_64_11-Release-Configuration/current/
[17:39] <@alexanderW> I'll this one
[17:39] <@alexanderW> *try
[17:41] <mirek2>  thanks
[17:47] <mirek2> meanwhile, what else is there to cover
[17:47] <mirek2> branding, perhaps?
[17:48] <@alexanderW> yeah, do we have any submissions?
[17:48] == astron247 [~frootzowr@dslb-188-103-087-019.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #libreoffice-design
[17:48] <astron247> hello... sorry for being late.
[17:48] <@alexanderW> hi
[17:48] <mirek2> well, I think I'm the only one who submitted a splash, and it's a revamp of my last submission
[17:49] <mirek2> hi astron
[17:49] <astron247> turns out christmas might be a bad time to do anything at all...
[17:50] <mirek2> :) yeah
[17:50] <mirek2> I showed up 30 minutes late myself
[17:50] <astron247> alright.
[17:51] <astron247> is there a new splash screen playground?
[17:51] <@alexanderW> no, branding
[17:51] <@alexanderW> in general
[17:51] <mirek2> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/4.0_Branding
[17:52] <mirek2> here's what you missed so far: http://piratepad.net/aeGQFuJpuX
[17:52] <astron247> great, thanks
[17:56] <mirek2> when is 4.0 supposed to release?
[17:56] <astron247> oh, ok. mirek: to find out why building failed, you can look into an auto-generated file called build_error.log and then look for what failed. then you can usually make module.clean (replace module by the module that failed) – you should try to avoid make tail_build.clean, though...
[17:56] <astron247> beginning of february
[17:56] <astron247> (i think)
[17:57] <astron247> feb 4–10, says the plan
[17:58] <mirek2> yeah, it's tail_build that failed for me
[17:58] <mirek2> the error message basically told me the same thing you did
[17:59] <astron247> tail_build contains smaller modules, try to look at what was the last thing it tried to build, you might have to scroll up 50 or so lines...
[17:59] <mirek2> I don't have it open anymore, unfortunately
[18:00] <mirek2> I'll just try the deb now
[18:00] <astron247> ok
[18:01] <mirek2> anyhow, maybe we should settle on some branding soon
[18:02] <astron247> cerainly
[18:02] <mirek2> so that there's still time to test it and change it based on feedback
[18:02] <astron247> +t
[18:03] <mirek2> so deadline next week?
[18:03] <mirek2> or the week after?
[18:04] <astron247> two weeks sounds better
[18:04] <mirek2> alright
[18:05] <mirek2> I'll put up a post on our mailing list
[18:05] <astron247> look here, though: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleasePlan/4.0
[18:05] <astron247> ie. rc1 is probably tagged on jan 7
[18:05] <mirek2> branding doesn't fall under UI freeze, does it?
[18:06] <astron247> no, but itd be good if we could try to have everything in before the rc
[18:06] <astron247> and i meant to say, rc1 is probably tagged on ~jan 9
[18:06] <mirek2> agreed
[18:07] <mirek2> should I put up a post on G+ as well?
[18:07] <astron247> our planning sucks of course, and i am not sure it is realisitc
[18:07] <mirek2> of course
[18:08] <astron247> sorry for the "of course," but i think it does.
[18:08] <mirek2> :)
[18:09] <astron247> how about we keep the branding for this release as is?
[18:09] <mirek2> I'd like to change it, seeing as it's a .0 release, but if we don't end up with any good proposals, then it's fine to leave as is
[18:10] <@alexanderW> might be reasonable
[18:10] <mirek2> in any case, I would say we really need to focus on the template manager
[18:10] <@alexanderW> I don't have too much time in the next few weeks
[18:10] <@alexanderW> I think the changes Cédric did weree on master, not the 4.0 branch
[18:10] <astron247> mirek2: i agree somewhat, but the rest of the project doesnt seem to care about this being a .0 either
[18:11] <mirek2> I'm ok with leaving it as is, just saying if we find something a bit better, then we should use that instead
[18:12] <mirek2> alexanderW: ok
[18:12] <mirek2> that sucks for me, then
[18:12] <astron247> mirek2: what sucks for you?
[18:13] <mirek2> that I have to try to build again to be able to try out the latest template manager changes
[18:13] <@alexanderW> ?
[18:13] <@alexanderW> there are also master builds available
[18:14] <mirek2> sorry, didn't realize that somehow
[18:16] <mirek2> they seem to all be 64-bit, though, no?
[18:16] <@alexanderW> don't know
[18:17] <@alexanderW> Do you need 32 bit debs?
[18:17] <mirek2> yup
[18:17] <mirek2> I'm looking at https://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/master/Linux-Fedora17-x86_64@4-gcc-4.7-dbgutil/current/
[18:19] <mirek2> so... I assume there's no other way than to build
[18:20] <@alexanderW> looks like it
[18:20] <mirek2> ok...
[18:21] <astron247> then, you have a bit of sleuthing in build_error.log ahead...
[18:21] <mirek2> hmph... I guess I'll build when I have some more time
[18:21] <mirek2> should I ask on Google+ for feedback on the template dialog?
[18:22] <astron247> good idea.
[18:23] <mirek2> ok, great
[18:23] == alexanderW [~alexander@212.255.233.125] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
[18:23] == alexanderW [~alexander@212.255.233.125] has joined #libreoffice-design
[18:24] <mirek2> anything else to discuss wrt this dialog?
[18:25] <alexanderW> I don't think so
[18:25] <astron247> i guess i wanted to make a mockup last week, i didnt
[18:25] <alexanderW> For the template manager?
[18:27] <astron247> how the path bar could be better integrated, i think. anyway, i dotn know if that is happening
[18:28] <mirek2> if what is happening?
[18:28] <alexanderW> Might be hard to integrate if the connected buttons widget couldn't easily be themes correctly
[18:28] <mirek2> if it's going to be better integrated?
[18:29] <alexanderW> either
[18:29] <mirek2> we're not using the connected buttons widget, though, right?
[18:29] <mirek2> we're just using text labels?
[18:29] <mirek2> (right now)
[18:29] <astron247> text labels/link text seems more sensible than mere buttons...
[18:30] <mirek2> I agree
[18:31] <mirek2> astron247: what do you imagine under "better integration"?
[18:32] == michelr [~michel@mir31-7-78-242-216-54.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #libreoffice-design
[18:32] == michelr [~michel@mir31-7-78-242-216-54.fbx.proxad.net] has left #libreoffice-design []
[18:33] <astron247> sorry, hat i meant was integration with the rest of the dialogue – i. e. the three rows of ui at the top issue
[18:33] == michelr [~michel@mir31-7-78-242-216-54.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #libreoffice-design
[18:33] <mirek2> hi michel
[18:33] <alexanderW> hi
[18:33] <michelr> hi
[18:33] <mirek2> astron247: could you mock it up by next week?
[18:34] <astron247> not sure
[18:34] <astron247> (its on the list now
[18:34] <astron247> )
[18:35] <mirek2> michelr: here's what we've talked about so far: http://piratepad.net/aeGQFuJpuX
[18:35] <michelr> thx !
[18:35] <mirek2> astron247: what's on the list now? the mockup?
[18:36] <astron247> yep
[18:36] <michelr> sorry for being late, i was out with daylight
[18:37] <mirek2> astron247: could you point me to it?
[18:38] <astron247> sure, when i have done it... weird question, though
[18:38] <astron247> (given how we meet in this chat every week)
[18:39] <mirek2> sorry, I misunderstood what you were saying
[18:39] <mirek2> I thought you were saying that you've already posted it to the mailing list
[18:40] <mirek2> anyway, should we move on to another topic?
[18:40] <astron247> no, i havent created a mockup
[18:40] <astron247> (yet)
[18:40] <mirek2> ok
[18:40] <michelr> I tried the template manager on beta 1 days ago
[18:41] <michelr> and i found it difficult to use, not only bugs (or "not yet implemented")
[18:41] <astron247> shouldnt beta 2 be out already?
[18:41] <mirek2> it's out
[18:42] <mirek2> michelr: could you describe the problems?
[18:43] <michelr> iirc, it was not obvious to understand how templates are organized
[18:45] <alexanderW> for example that the tabs only function as filters?
[18:45] <michelr> the buttons at the top don't look like filters
[18:45] <alexanderW> hm
[18:45] <mirek2> they were changed to tabs in the most recent release
[18:46] <mirek2> do you think that'll make it better?
[18:46] <michelr> I'll check the beta 2 tonight or tomorrow
[18:46] <mirek2> apparently, the newest fixes are in the master, not in beta 2
[18:47] <astron247> also, michelr, the selection mode is gone, and everything is double-clickable.
[18:47] <michelr> my feeling was that I didn't understood the behavior to copy it in a prototype
[18:48] <michelr> astron247: so can i test a nightly build ?
[18:48] <mirek2> astron247: I think everything was double-clickable from the get-go
[18:49] <astron247> mirek2: right, sorry
[18:50] <astron247> michelr, yes, depending on your os, you shoudl find somethign to work with here: dev-builds.libreoffice.org
[18:51] <michelr> ok i'll test and report precisely
[18:52] <astron247> (go to the folder daily/
[18:52] <astron247> )
[18:52] <mirek2> reminds me: as we've changed the nature of the dialog to resemble classic file browsers, we should add a "Create folder" button to the toolbar
[18:52] <mirek2> (plus, I don't think the suggested drag-and-drop behavior was ever implemented)
[18:52] <alexanderW> or have a square right in the view
[18:53] <michelr> +1 for button "create folder"
[18:54] <alexanderW> maybe something like in the 2nd screen: http://browse.deviantart.com/?q=foto+elementary#/d41rwif
[18:55] <mirek2> I think that's too big for how much we want the feature used
[18:55] <astron247> that plus looks mighty big
[18:56] <michelr> does it create a folder or a "foto" ?
[18:56] <alexanderW> I would create a folder
[18:56] <alexanderW> but if it isn't used that often it might be a bit overkill
[18:57] <astron247> michelr: good question in this context, of course it creates a folder but the context would suggest it createas a photo
[18:57] <mirek2> I'd opt for a standard "Create folder" button
[18:59] <mirek2> toolbar button
[18:59] <mirek2> I mean
[18:59] <alexanderW> okay
[18:59] <michelr> from a technical pov, today it's not possible to create folders
[19:00] <mirek2> oh
[19:00] <mirek2> really?
[19:00] <michelr> sorry, i meant "today there is no UI to create folders"
[19:00] <astron247> mirek2: es, really
[19:00] <astron247> +y
[19:01] <michelr> so will it be technically possible to create them ?
[19:01] <mirek2> I would assume that's planned
[19:02] <astron247> ive added it to https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Templates_and_documents_rework/Design_Bugs
[19:02] <mirek2> but if it's a technical problem, then it's not a design bug
[19:04] <astron247> "theres no button" is a design bug, i think
[19:05] <mirek2> I assumed that "from a technical pov" means that the problem runs deeper than just adding a button
[19:06] <astron247> its probably not implemented yet, either. but no, i dont think that was meant
[19:06] <mirek2> oh, ok
[19:07] <mirek2> btw, when searching, does the search bar replace the path bar?
[19:07] <mirek2> (it should)
[19:07] <alexanderW> one sec
[19:08] <astron247> searching seems impossible when the path bar is there
[19:08] <alexanderW> ...
[19:08] <astron247> (ie the search icon goes away completely then
[19:09] <astron247> )
[19:09] <mirek2> ok, could you add it to the bugs?
[19:09] <astron247> sorry, wrong observation
[19:10] <astron247> searching/reordering/reloading is impossible when a template is selected
[19:10] <alexanderW> I doesn't replace it
[19:10] <astron247> still dumb
[19:11] <astron247> ill add both issues then
[19:11] <alexanderW> Well, one can still search if one opened the search bar before selecting a template
[19:12] <alexanderW> but the search and options buttons disappear
[19:12] <mirek2> ok
[19:14] <mirek2> anything else?
[19:14] <mirek2> about the dialog?
[19:14] <mirek2> if not, perhaps you could tell us about the ESC call, Astron?
[19:15] <astron247> there was no ESC call this week
[19:15] <astron247> (not sure there will be one next week)
[19:16] <mirek2> oh, ok
[19:16] <mirek2> anything else to discuss?
[19:17] <mirek2> how to move on with the color picker, maybe?
[19:17] <michelr> ok
[19:17] <mirek2> any new prototypes on that front?
[19:18] <michelr> i uploaded my prototypes : http://mr-consultant.net/lo_prototypes/color_picker/v20121229_r14
[19:18] <alexanderW> thanks
[19:18] <michelr> for the future, everything will be under http://mr-consultant.net/lo_prototypes/
[19:19] <michelr> i added a first page that show some informations
[19:19] <mirek2> great, thanks!
[19:19] <michelr> more important are the questions that (imho) seems not answered
[19:21] <mirek2> what would be the best way to test these prototypes?
[19:21] <michelr> for ex i realized that there not seems to be a std ways to indicate that a new color is choosen
[19:22] <michelr> mirek2: sorry what do you mean ?
[19:22] <mirek2> michelr: well, the main reason for making these prototypes is to test them and compare which one does better
[19:23] <mirek2> what should we test for? what questions should we ask and how do we word them?
[19:24] <mirek2> michelr: the selected color should have a white inner border
[19:24] <astron247> björn might be able to help...
[19:24] <mirek2> the current object color should have a blue border
[19:24] <mirek2> see https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/8/84/C-picker.png
[19:24] <mirek2> (the second image illustrates it best, I think)
[19:24] <michelr> I created them based on differents suggestions from last chat
[19:25] <mirek2> astron247: yes, if he's willing to
[19:25] <michelr> and the first page indicate what is the "subject" of each version
[19:25] <michelr> that is, what is the point to test
[19:26] <mirek2> what do you mean by "initial color" in your questions?
[19:26] <michelr> about the blue border seems ok when there is a list of colors, but what about with the HSL/CMYK.. selectors ?
[19:27] <michelr> "initial color" is the current color of the selected object in the document ; the color picker must indicate that color
[19:28] <mirek2> do you think it's really that necessary?
[19:28] <michelr> should the color picker choose the right panel to indicate that initial color ?
[19:29] <alexanderW> yeah
[19:29] <mirek2> the current color picker that lists each color and its name doesn't show it
[19:29] <alexanderW> and shw it in the bottom bar
[19:29] <michelr> it's very necessary
[19:29] <mirek2> Inkscape doesn't show the initial color
[19:29] <mirek2> I just don't think it is that necessary
[19:30] <mirek2> the user sees the color on the object itself
[19:30] <michelr> in some color picker, there is always a remaining of the initial color, just beside the current color
[19:31] <mirek2> not in Inkscape, and that's a tool for designers
[19:32] <michelr> I find it a big design mistake, as it's a big help for users
[19:33] <michelr> as a user i can tell you it's important ;-)
[19:33] <mirek2> I've always found it annoying myself, because it adulterates the new color
[19:33] <mirek2> (i.e. you're not seeing the new color, you're seeing the new color as it looks next to the old color)
[19:34] <mirek2> michelr: in which situations do you use it?
[19:35] <michelr> it was in a RAD tool (4th Dimension) : the color picker was not indicating the initial color
[19:35] <michelr> and sometimes i add to change from a light gray to another light gray...
[19:35] <astron247> ok. ill be afk... but still online.
[19:36] <mirek2> ok
[19:36] <michelr> as the picker had several shades of gray it was impossible to guess, in last versions they added the indication and it's usable
[19:38] <mirek2> well, if you're working with the palette, you get the indication, so there's no problem there
[19:39] <mirek2> when you're working with "custom color", you start out with the initial color, so every change you make is done relative to that initial color
[19:40] <mirek2> thus there's no guessing -- if you want a color lighter than the current one, just go to "custom color" and choose a bigger number for lightness
[19:40] <mirek2> brightness
[19:41] <mirek2> I think that covers all the major use cases where the current and new colors need to be compared
[19:42] <michelr> And how is defined the panel shown when opening the picker ?
[19:42] <michelr> in the prototypes i just defined the first (custom color)
[19:43] <mirek2> I think "libreoffice colors" should be the default panel, as the default color palette tends to be what color pickers in general tend to show
[19:44] <mirek2> the problem I see with splitting the bottom color preview into two parts is that we'd need to label them "Old" and "New" as well as label the new color for the color blind
[19:44] <mirek2> I think that'd be overkill
[19:46] <mirek2> or, rather, I'm not sure how to design it without sacrificing the original simplicity
[19:46] <michelr> and if the initial color is not available in "libreoffice colors" ? check in "colors in use" ? and then show "custom colors" ?
[19:46] <alexanderW> Colors in use
[19:46] <mirek2> yup
[19:46] <alexanderW> if must be in that set, or not?
[19:46] <mirek2> yes, it must
[19:47] <mirek2> it's also somewhat likely to be in "recent colors"
[19:47] <mirek2> and it also shows up when your mouse is not hovered over any of the palette colors
[19:49] <mirek2> that said, you're welcome to propose a different solution and post it under the proposals section at https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Color_Picker
[19:52] <mirek2> as for the other questions listed:
[19:52] <mirek2>  "is it nesessary/possible to select 'no color'" ? -- depends on the context
[19:53] <mirek2> (highlight can have no color, text color can't)
[19:53] <michelr> but how does the UI allow that ?
[19:54] <mirek2> if none is allowed, it's shown as the default option
[19:54] <mirek2> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/8/84/C-picker.png
[19:54] <mirek2> it's the same behavior as now
[19:54] <mirek2> "when is the color picker closed ? does it depend from the sub-panel (lo colors, custom...) ?"
[19:55] <mirek2> it closes on clicking away, just like a regular pop-over
[19:55] <mirek2> it also closes when selecting a color in the palette view
[19:56] <michelr> about default options, is it possible to have "automatic" and "None" ?
[19:56] <mirek2> LibreOffice has so far presented one or the other
[19:59] <mirek2> when we move onto replacing the listbox we have now, though, I think it'll just be an option you can pick from the category picker
[19:59] <mirek2> but that depends on how we'll design it after this phase
[20:00] <mirek2> alternatively, it could be presented as an option next to Automatic
[20:00] <mirek2> (e.g. have Automatic take up 3 squares and None the other 3)
[20:01] <mirek2> that's probably the better solution
[20:01] <michelr> i agree
[20:01] <michelr> about closing : clicking away means "cancel"
[20:02] <mirek2> no, it means "close"
[20:02] <mirek2> big difference
[20:02] <michelr> "close without change"
[20:03] <mirek2> well, editing the color in "custom color" view should change the color of the object in real time
[20:04] <mirek2> so closing the pop-over will always be without change
[20:04] <mirek2> as change will happen live when inside the pop-over
[20:04] <michelr> is it technically ok ?
[20:05] <mirek2> don't know, will ask
[20:05] <michelr> devs should confirm that asap, because it will change the design of the color picker
[20:06] <mirek2> you're right, I'll ask
[20:06] <mirek2> good point
[20:06] <michelr> eg it should come back to a "modal" behavior, which i supposed
[20:07] <mirek2> basically what MS Office has now, right?
[20:07] <mirek2> something along those lines?
[20:07] <mirek2> or what do you imagine under "modal" behavior?
[20:07] <mirek2> have the whole picker inside a dialog?
[20:08] <michelr> i meant the actual behavior of all popups : the change occurs when the popup is closed, usually after the first click
[20:08] <michelr> there is no live change
[20:09] <mirek2> how would you change the pop-over design, though?
[20:10] <mirek2> add an apply button to the "custom color" category?
[20:11] <michelr> no precise answer at that time...
[20:11] <mirek2> ok
[20:11] <michelr> let my brain wor for one or two nights ;-)
[20:11] <michelr> work
[20:12] <mirek2> :)
[20:12] <mirek2> btw, if you have any ideas for the picker, feel free to add them to the proposals section of its wiki page
[20:12] <michelr> sure
[20:13] <michelr> my current feeling is that the color picker in lo3.6 is nit that bad
[20:13] <michelr> *not
[20:13] <alexanderW> still rather limited
[20:13] <mirek2> limited and chaotic
[20:13] <michelr> the on ly problem is that the colors are not well organized
[20:14] <mirek2> and the default colors aren't very good either
[20:15] <michelr> yeah, but that's not the picker'ui, just colors defintion
[20:15] <michelr> if devs can't do live changes, maybe we can expand the current picker
[20:15] <michelr> i may have ideas...
[20:15] <mirek2> well, there are more problems
[20:16] <mirek2> a) we can't remove from the color selection, because it may cause compatibility problems with older ODF files
[20:17] <mirek2> that's the reason for the "Colors in Use" section in the picker proposal, so that people can find the colors they used in their documents even if they're not in the default selection anymore
[20:17] <mirek2> b) adding custom colors is hard and undiscoverable
[20:18] <mirek2> c) the listbox color picker is hard to work with
[20:18] <mirek2> it'd be great if we could have one color picker replace both the listbox and the custom colors dialog
[20:19] <mirek2> and this redesign is basically the first step
[20:20] <mirek2> and though people don't like to hear this: d) the use of touch-screens is going, and we should be mindful of touch-input when designing new stuff
[20:20] <mirek2> because it's likely that this stuff won't be touched for years afterwards
[20:21] <mirek2> "growing", not "going"
[20:22] <mirek2> sorry if I talked you all to death
[20:23] <michelr> no, interesting points
[20:23] <mirek2> :) good to know
[20:24] <mirek2> anything else to add about the picker?
[20:25] <mirek2> if not, any other topics to cover?
[20:25] <michelr> does that mean that the picker will be incorporated in the option dialog ?
[20:26] <michelr> in the "colors" entry in the options dialog ?
[20:26] <mirek2> it means that hopefully we'll be able to remove that section
[20:27] <mirek2> (that's good, because it's undiscoverable and is hard to get to)
[20:27] <mirek2> (and because the options dialog is overcrowded)
[20:28] <mirek2> anything else?
[20:29] <alexanderW> nope?
[20:30] <mirek2> btw, I uploaded a much more detailed proposal of the command reorganization/tools menu you asked for last week
[20:30] <mirek2> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Toolbar_layout
[20:32] <michelr> I'll take a look
[20:34] <mirek2> it's not really a pressing matter, though
[20:35] <mirek2> other than that, I think we can end the chat
[20:36] <mirek2> I'll upload the log
[20:36] <michelr> just a simple question
[20:36] <mirek2> go ahead
[20:37] <michelr> we had some reflexions about modifications in the insert menu ; what's the status ?
[20:37] <mirek2> I think that's been put off for now
[20:38] <michelr> :-(
[20:38] <michelr> sad because it was simple and could change a bit user's life
[20:38] <alexanderW> agree
[20:38] <alexanderW> Maybe 4.1
[20:38] <michelr> well, maybe for 4.1
[20:39] <mirek2> bring it up on the design mailing list
[20:39] <michelr> ok, no more questions for me
[20:40] <mirek2> alright