Design/Meetings/2013-01-19

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Attendees

  • althaser
  • astron247
  • crepererum
  • maximi89
  • mirek2
  • SteveBell

Topics

  • ESC call
  • FOSDEM T-shirts
  • Color picker
  • 4.0 Branding process

Tasks

Mirek2

  • Update the color picker mockup
  • Alert about invalid branding proposals, ask for discussion

Log

[16:02] <@mirek2> hey astron
[16:02] <astron247> hi
[16:02] <@mirek2> I have some important ideas to discuss about the color picker
[16:03] <@mirek2> but later, when more people are here
[16:03] <@mirek2> while waiting, could you provide updates from the ESC?
[16:03] <astron247> sorry, no. i wanst there
[16:03] <astron247> wasnt
[16:03] <@mirek2> oh, ok
[16:04] <@mirek2> the minutes make it seem like you were
[16:05] <astron247> ..?
[16:05] <astron247> might have to do with the fact that so. else did them this time
[16:05] <@mirek2> there's a whole UX input section
[16:05] <@mirek2> and "decision on whether to switch back to old floppy save (Astron)"
[16:06] <@mirek2> under Pending Action Items
[16:06] <astron247> right. that was from last week then presumably?
[16:06] <@mirek2> I thought there was no chat last week
[16:07] <astron247> hm. then, yes i was at the call last week.
[16:07] <@mirek2> :) can you provide the details of what was discussed
[16:07] <@mirek2> while we're waiting
[16:08] <@mirek2> or are the minutes exhaustive?
[16:08] <astron247> sorry. yes, i can.
[16:14] <astron247> although, then again, there's not so much – i said i was unsure if we'd have a new splash screen for 4.0; was cautiously optimistic about the template manager; kendy wanted to say thanks for me giving some feedback; kendy wanted to go forward with new fosdem shirts/hoodies and maybe would like some input on his/the marketing team's ideas; michael brought up the save icon post of björn; bjoern brought up a bug ab
[16:14] <astron247> out images getting linked instead of pasted into documents – said he'd have no time to fix this, but michael assigned the task of fixing it to bjoern anyway.
[16:14] <astron247> wall of text, i know.
[16:16] <@mirek2> good to hear images will be pasted
[16:16] <@mirek2> about the fosdem shirts: will they use any of the proposed designs?
[16:16] <@mirek2> or will they use an older one?
[16:17] <astron247> likely a different one altogether – but i dont quite know
[16:17] <@mirek2> ok
[16:17] <astron247> we could of course pick one now – s. phipps e.g. said hed actually be interested in texty...
[16:18] <@mirek2> honestly, out of the 3 proposals, I only like yours
[16:18] <@mirek2> and even then, I don't think it quite fits with the current branding
[16:18] <astron247> i know. it was more of a proof of concept
[16:18] <@mirek2> yeah, I know
[16:19] <astron247> (you know – you can do tee designs with these templates)
[16:19] <@mirek2> I know, but it doesn't really interest me
[16:20] <@mirek2> since it's been 20 minutes, I guess we could get started on a topic
[16:20] <@mirek2> ok to start with color picker?
[16:21] <astron247> @I know, but it[...]: that was re: my previous post, and "you" was meant more like "one" (even though id love to see a design from both alex and you.
[16:21] <astron247> (but i can understand you not being interested in that.)
[16:22] <@mirek2> ok
[16:22] <astron247> btw, i now remember one more thing about the shirts: the ones that apparently worked best were the simplest ones that had just the logo and tdf on them
[16:23] <@mirek2> like the ones from the conference?
[16:23] <@mirek2> (those I really liked)
[16:23] <astron247> i dont remember these anymore (didnt take one) – but i hated the fact that my backpack has arial on it...
[16:24] <@mirek2> :)
[16:26] <@mirek2> ok to move onto the picker?
[16:26] <astron247> oh, and if you look into the tee shirt thread on marketing-priv, you can see that cor has a somewhat nice cartoonish design, that could use some direction and then woudl be great, imho.
[16:26] <astron247> anyway ... color picker!
[16:26] <astron247> +u
[16:27] <@mirek2> I'll take look at it
[16:27] <@mirek2> about the picker:
[16:27] == SteveBell [~Adium@mnhm-590e76b9.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #libreoffice-design
[16:27] <SteveBell> hi all, sry for being late.
[16:27] <@mirek2> hi
[16:27] <astron247> hi
[16:27] <@mirek2> just started talking about the color picker
[16:28] <SteveBell> do you happen to have a link for the topics being discussed so far?
[16:28] <SteveBell> should I post that a meeting is ongoing  on diasp?
[16:28] <@mirek2> http://piratepad.net/SIK0vgFUbf
[16:29] <SteveBell> maybe a G+ post would let people know as well?
[16:29] <SteveBell> thx mirek2
[16:29] <@mirek2> SteveBell: no, as we don't post about it on other networks
[16:29] <astron247> steve: maybe doing that before would be better?
[16:29] <@mirek2> (that would be tedious, as we have a meeting every week)
[16:29] <SteveBell> not sure how posting now would harm anything
[16:29] <astron247> mirek2: some sort of reminder that we still do that wouldnt hurt (occasionally)
[16:30] <astron247> (not every week)
[16:30] <SteveBell> but yeah would have been better. but time travel is not yet possibel :P
[16:30] <SteveBell> can I just go ahead a post a quick note?
[16:30] <@mirek2> sure -- a reminder sounds good
[16:30] <@mirek2> SteveBell: I would leave that for the next chat
[16:31] <@mirek2> since people missed a half hour of the chat already
[16:31] <@mirek2> it's a bit late to tell them now
[16:31] <@mirek2> on all three networks
[16:31] <SteveBell> hm as you wish. yes but 2 weeks ago the meeting went on rather late so not sure why it would be bad to chime in now. also it should be in our interest in getting more people involved.
[16:32] <SteveBell> check out e.g. the vergecast. posting that it starts or has started doesn't harm them
[16:32] <SteveBell> people wanna know and people forget.
[16:32] <SteveBell> but if you think it's no good I shut up know and let you guys proceed.
[16:32] <SteveBell> *now
[16:32] <@mirek2> astron, what do you think?
[16:33] <astron247> about doing it now? not sure its worth, not sure it hurts either
[16:33] <astron247> +it
[16:33] <SteveBell> well we could try and see if anybody at all shows up
[16:34] <@mirek2> ok, how about "Our weekly IRC meeting has started. If you want to follow the discussion, go to webchat.freenode.net and sign in to the #libreoffice-design channel."?
[16:35] <SteveBell> perfect
[16:36] <@mirek2> ok, go ahead and post it on Diaspora
[16:36] <SteveBell> out
[16:37] <astron247> ok... colour picking...
[16:38] <@mirek2> hold on, posting on fb
[16:39] <@mirek2> ok
[16:39] <SteveBell> wasn't that auto-forwarded from G+?
[16:39] <@mirek2> well, I'd have to be signed in to use that
[16:40] <SteveBell> ok pls proceed about the color picker
[16:40] <@mirek2> (I never stay signed into fb in my default browser for privacy reasons)
[16:40] <@mirek2> alright
[16:40] <@mirek2> basically, we introduced the "Colors in Use" category in order for the user to be able to continue using the document's color scheme
[16:41] <@mirek2> however, I think OOXML's theme colors does a much better job of that, with the advantages:
[16:41] <@mirek2> a) the document doesn't have to be scanned
[16:41] <@mirek2> b) it's very easy to change the style of the document
[16:41] == althaser [~gnu@cl-229.lis-01.pt.sixxs.net] has joined #libreoffice-design
[16:42] <@mirek2> c) this feature would have to be implemented sooner or later anyway, as it's a core part of OOXML
[16:42] <@mirek2> which we strive to support
[16:42] <SteveBell> hi althaser. we're in the midth of discussing the color picker. welcome :)
[16:42] <althaser> hey guys :)
[16:43] <althaser> thanks
[16:43] <@mirek2> the log is at http://piratepad.net/SIK0vgFUbf, if you're interested
[16:44] <@mirek2> somehow, developing "Colors in Use" seems like a waste of time, and I'd rather see that time invested in supporting "Theme colors"
[16:44] <@mirek2> astron247: what do you think?
[16:45] <astron247> mirek2: im not sure if odf actually supports themes, and since that the format that libo uses internally that is more important, of course, as with data bars/colour scales ... we can add our own features to odf (but it will be incompatible at first)
[16:45] <@mirek2> astron247: I've been thinking about that too
[16:46] <@mirek2> it'd be good to add this feature to ODF
[16:47] <@mirek2> perhaps an alternative interim solution would be to use styles defined with a single color somehow
[16:47] <@mirek2> that sounds like it would open up a can of worms, though
[16:48] <@mirek2> so it's probably not a good solution
[16:49] <@mirek2> in any case, I think it'd be good to first support themes, then ship a new color picker
[16:51] <astron247> how would you create styles created from a single colour? sth like the agave software does?
[16:51] <@mirek2> not sure how agave does it
[16:52] <@mirek2> probably the simplest interim solution would be to hardcode the colors and use on-disk palettes instead of themes
[16:52] <@mirek2> (they'd be called palettes, not themes)
[16:53] <@mirek2> and maybe the palette could be packed into the document as well, and opening up a document would add it to LibreOffice's color picker
[16:53] <@mirek2> I don't really have concrete ideas, but I'm sure there are many possible interim solutions
[16:54] <@mirek2> that said, I would prefer to wait for theme support rather than implement an interim solution
[16:55] == xedi [5bb13f9c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.177.63.156] has joined #libreoffice-design
[16:56] <SteveBell> hey xide. welcome. we're discussing the color picker at the moment.
[16:56] <SteveBell> *xedi (sry)
[16:56] <xedi> hello, no problem :)
[16:56] <@mirek2> hi xedi
[16:57] <astron247> ok. in general, i like the idea, but the design already provisions for palettes, so... not sure, if we need another way of doing that.
[16:57] <@mirek2> the log so far is on http://piratepad.net/SIK0vgFUbf, if you're interested
[16:58] <astron247> also, it might be a good idea to just import any palette found in a ooxml document as a normal palette ot be used within our document...
[16:58] <@mirek2> astron247: you're saying that there's no need for a palette-like interim solution, or no need for theme colors altogether?
[16:59] <@mirek2> not palette-like, but rather palette-based
[17:00] <astron247> what i am trying to say is that we already have a palette feature (not implemented of course), and we could just temporarily add any ooxml palette to the palette switcher
[17:00] <SteveBell> so this is what we are discussing? http://cl.ly/image/1546151m2j2m
[17:01] <@mirek2> SteveBell: wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Color Picker
[17:01] <@mirek2> astron247: yeah, that's I meant by my "interim solution" proposal
[17:02] <@mirek2> but you're not saying to forego supporting theme colors for that, right?
[17:04] <astron247> themes ~ palettes: we could ship multiple palettes
[17:04] <@mirek2> themes are not the same as palettes
[17:05] <@mirek2> the use-cases are a bit different
[17:05] <astron247> but i don't know if we should immediately start encoding them into the document. also, i quite like the document colors feature.
[17:05] <astron247> ok, whats the difference in our case?
[17:06] <@mirek2> the number and use of theme colors is constant and defined upfront
[17:06] <@mirek2> a file can only use a single theme
[17:06] <@mirek2> switching a file's theme switches all the theme colors
[17:07] <@mirek2> the use case for themes is to change the whole appearance of the document quickly and easily
[17:07] <@mirek2> basically, it's a metastyle
[17:08] <@mirek2> whereas palettes are simply sets of colors, without any of this functionality
[17:08] <astron247> right. i see that now. sorry.
[17:09] <astron247> (although, of course, with some work on one's one part, one can kind wring out similar functionality out of palettes.)
[17:09] <astron247> ^one^ôwn
[17:10] <@mirek2> yes -- that's what a possible interim solution could be
[17:10] <@mirek2> about the "colors in use" feature -- I also like it, but I feel like the use-cases are covered by themes and in a better way (variables are always better than hard-coded values)
[17:11] <@mirek2> plus we heard from the development team that it would be hard to implement
[17:11] <SteveBell> so themes are awesome. but require more development work. and now the question is how to proceed or deal with that? is it consent, that themes are the aimed at solution on the long run?
[17:11] <@mirek2> and it would take time to scan the document for all the colors
[17:12] <@mirek2> SteveBell: I think everyone on the dev team agrees that we want to be as compatible with OOXML as possible
[17:15] <@mirek2> so, do we agree that it'd be best to first have theme support, then build a new color picker?
[17:16] <SteveBell> how far is that off?
[17:17] <@mirek2> not sure, will have to contact the dev team first
[17:17] <SteveBell> if it's too far off, I'd rather go with an interim solution. the current color picker is a mess.
[17:17] <SteveBell> if it's close your suggestion sounds fine
[17:17] <astron247> mirek2: i dont really agree.
[17:17] <@mirek2> btw, I didn't mean to say "theme support", but rather "theme color support"
[17:18] <astron247> color picker > theme support...
[17:18] <astron247> (at least in our case)
[17:19] <mirek2_> sorry, disconnected
[17:19] <astron247> (if this was new software, that might be a sensible course of action)
[17:19] <astron247> when did you get disconnected?
[17:19] <mirek2_> after "color picker > theme support..."
[17:19] <mirek2_> did I miss anything?
[17:19] <astron247> not really
[17:20] <mirek2_> yes or no? could you post the line(s) I missed, even if they're meaningless?
[17:21] <SteveBell> color picker > theme support...
[17:21] == SteveBell [~Adium@mnhm-590e76b9.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Excess Flood]
[17:21] <astron247> astron247:  (at least in our case)
[17:21] <mirek2_> alright
[17:21] == SteveBell [~Adium@mnhm-590e76b9.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #libreoffice-design
[17:21] <mirek2_> well, what about "Colors in use"?
[17:21] <SteveBell> seriously? for that I get disconnected as well?
[17:22] <mirek2_> :)
[17:22] == mirek2 [59b0ae7b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.176.174.123] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
[17:22] <mirek2_> I think it'd be really hard to implement that feature so that it works well
[17:22] <SteveBell> I'm not to keen on that feature
[17:22] <mirek2_> (i.e. doesn't scan the whole document all the time)
[17:22] <astron247> steve: you had "excess flood" behind your name... maybe you copied something else from your clipboard?
[17:23] <SteveBell> wasn't intending to…
[17:25] <mirek2_> so, forego the "Colors in use" feature, ship the rest?
[17:25] <mirek2_> then work on themes?
[17:26] <mirek2_> or ship with palette support as an interim solution?
[17:26] <mirek2_> and treat theme colors as temporary palettes?
[17:26] <SteveBell> what's ship the rest?
[17:26] <mirek2_> ship the rest of https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Color Picker
[17:26] <mirek2_> (the link should be https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Color_Picker)
[17:27] <SteveBell> so the proposals already have been decided?
[17:27] <astron247> mirek2: i admit it might
[17:27] <astron247> sorry. accidentally pressed enter ...
[17:27] <mirek2_> :)
[17:27] <astron247> ... no idea what i wanted to write
[17:27] <mirek2_> :)
[17:28] <SteveBell> hehe, still not sure what the rest is. I see many proposals, tickets and so forth.
[17:28] <SteveBell> mirek2_ could you elaborate a bit more on your proposed strategy?
[17:29] <mirek2_> SteveBell: I mean the whole of the tentative design, except without the "Colors in Use" section
[17:29] <SteveBell> oh sorry, I just noticed, several final descisions have been made
[17:29] <SteveBell> pardon my ignorance
[17:29] <mirek2_> :) that's fine
[17:30] <SteveBell> scrolling? is that seriously needed for a color palette?
[17:30] == xedi [5bb13f9c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.177.63.156] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
[17:31] <SteveBell> I really don't like the idea of document colors. too much coding trouble. also as a user I'd rather go along with nice suggestions. if I'm a designer I'm probably so designated that I don't want a software to tell me what theme to use.
[17:31] <SteveBell> so in either use-case I don't see much benefit for document colors
[17:32] <astron247> if youre editing someone else document it would be very useful
[17:32] <mirek2_> SteveBell: about scrolling -- yes, we need to be sure we work with any palette and at many screen sizes
[17:32] <mirek2_> SteveBell: about document colors: the benefit is that you're able to continue using the document's color scheme when those colors aren't in your default palette
[17:33] <SteveBell> ah ok, that's a benefit.
[17:33] <mirek2_> (that use case is covered by theme colors, though, so when we implement those, we don't have to have a "Colors in Use" section)
[17:33] <SteveBell> about scrolling: could it be implemented like so it's only shown if really needed?
[17:34] <mirek2_> SteveBell: yes -- that's shown in the mockups
[17:34] <SteveBell> ok sounds good
[17:34] <SteveBell> well then even more I'd say ignore this benefit for now, "ship the rest" and work on themes next
[17:35] <mirek2_> ok, I'd be fine with that
[17:35] <mirek2_> astron, your thoughts?
[17:35] <SteveBell> althaser do you have any opinion on this?
[17:36] <astron247> on what?
[17:36] <astron247> havent i said that already?
[17:37] <mirek2_> the questions are the same as at 18:25
[17:38] <mirek2_> if you have, could you repeat yourself?
[17:41] <SteveBell> mirek2: should we proceed?
[17:41] <astron247> it would really be great, if we even had a developer to realise that, so we could see how much work they think it is. i dont know if i can comment on the whole ship the rest thing – my impression was that developers didnt seem to fear the document colours
[17:41] <SteveBell> and astron247 can chime in later. ah sry. didn't mean to cut you off
[17:42] <SteveBell> but what's the benefit if on the long run it will be replaced by themes anyways?
[17:42] <astron247> says who?
[17:42] <SteveBell> I thought I read that further up but maybe I'm mistaken or confusing thingsß
[17:43] <astron247> (not that themes dont make sense, its just that document colours might still make sense)
[17:43] <SteveBell> maybe document colors could be a single theme?
[17:44] <mirek2_> astron247: what's the advantage of document colors compared to theme colors? it only encourages using hard-coded colors instead of themes/styles, which we don't want
[17:46] <mirek2_> (trying to find the ml entry about scanning the document for colors)
[17:46] <astron247> what do you mean by hard-coded colours?
[17:46] <astron247> that you can't switch them as easily?
[17:48] <mirek2_> well, theme colors are recorded as variables, whereas colors from "Colors in use" are hardcoded formatting
[17:51] <mirek2_> ok, here's what I was trying to find:
[17:51] <mirek2_> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings/2012-03-24
[17:51] <mirek2_> our very first IRC chat
[17:51] <mirek2_> "camillem: @christoph_n : colors used in the document is a nice feature, but that might hinder performances, i'm afraid"
[17:52] <mirek2_> "camillem: i think that if you have a way to know the color of the selected element that's already a huge leap forward"
[17:52] <astron247> who is camille?
[17:53] <mirek2_> here's a continuation of the discussion
[17:53] <mirek2_> http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Color-picker-td3854899.html
[17:53] <mirek2_> don't know
[17:53] <mirek2_> http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=user_nodes&user=229897
[17:54] <mirek2_> I don't think he's on the team anymore
[17:54] <mirek2_> his last post being in May 2012
[17:55] <mirek2_> it seems like he's a dev
[17:56] <astron247> right
[17:56] <mirek2_> so I assume he knows what he's talking about, and I don't think the state has changed over the year (sadly)
[17:58] <mirek2_> so I'm thinking it would just be easier to implement theme colors then jump through hoops for colors in use
[17:59] <SteveBell> I agree with mirek. and even if now we decide on a firm roadmap that does not mean, things can't change on the way
[18:00] <astron247> okay. then. go ahead & create another mockup...
[18:00] <mirek2_> with or without theme colors?
[18:02] <astron247> without at first.
[18:02] <astron247> and with them later on
[18:02] <mirek2_> alright
[18:02] <mirek2_> can I get rid of the sidebar, at least for now?
[18:02] <mirek2_> I don't think it really makes sense for 2 entries
[18:03] <astron247> but we do still have palettes, no?
[18:03] <astron247> and we could ship multiple by default
[18:03] <mirek2_> well, those will come later, and it still hasn't been decided how to manage those
[18:03] <mirek2_> I thought we were shipping without palette support initially
[18:04] <astron247> orly?
[18:04] <mirek2_> and I was thinking that "LibreOffice colors" could be handled as the default template's theme colors
[18:04] <astron247> but, afaik, we already ship with multiple palettes, you just cant use them (except for the default) – not completely sure
[18:04] <mirek2_> astron247: well, I think we decided a while ago against having a GUI for importing palettes for the first release
[18:06] <astron247> but we agreed to have ui to switch between different palettes?
[18:07] <mirek2_> not in the initial release
[18:07] <astron247> what then was the sidebar good for at all?
[18:08] <mirek2_> well, it was still useful for switching categories
[18:09] <mirek2_> and, of course, once palette support was implemented, it'd be useful for switching palettes
[18:09] <mirek2_> but I don't think we ever agreed whether to use a sidebar or a drop-down menu
[18:10] <mirek2_> michel created a prototype for both
[18:10] <mirek2_> and I believe you yourself said you weren't sure about the sidebar because of its size
[18:10] <mirek2_> because of the additional size
[18:12] <astron247> right.
[18:13] <astron247> i know. on the other hand it really hides the palette feature (should we ever have it) too much.
[18:13] <mirek2_> well, it's more visible that Inkscape's palette feature, and Inkscape is a designer tool
[18:14] <mirek2_> (Inkscape shows the palette selection in a drop-down menu triggered by a small triangle icon on the right of the palette bar)
[18:15] <astron247> and thats just the thing – libreoffice will be used by people who wont conscientously know what a palette is
[18:15] <astron247> ^conscientously^consciently
[18:15] <mirek2_> I would argue that most people won't need or want palettes
[18:15] <althaser> SteveBell sorry, I am not following your talk, I am busy atm, I saw a few mockups from yours links and they seems pretty good :)
[18:15] <mirek2_> theme colors are better for most use cases
[18:16] <mirek2_> palettes tend to be useful only for designers or when you have a corporate palette that the company refuses to make into theme colors
[18:19] <mirek2_> so... ok to use drop-down?
[18:19] <astron247> im not really sure why youre trying to suddenly change everything about the colour picker design
[18:19] <astron247> what would it do if you couldnt switch palettes?
[18:22] <mirek2_> what do you mean?
[18:23] <mirek2_> you can't switch palettes even in the current design, because it has only one palette
[18:23] <mirek2_> switching panels would happen through a dropdown menu
[18:23] <mirek2_> michel created a prototype for it, I'm trying to find it
[18:26] <astron247> http://mr-consultant.net/lo_prototypes/color_picker/v20121229_r14/v4/index.html
[18:26] <mirek2_> http://mr-consultant.net/lo_prototypes/color_picker/v20121229_r14/v3/index.html
[18:27] <mirek2_> :) you beat me to it
[18:27] <astron247> ok...
[18:28] <astron247> anyway, since were now down to two panels, a dropdown doesnt make much sense, it seems
[18:28] <mirek2_> what would you suggest, then?
[18:29] <mirek2_> a "Custom" button?
[18:29] <astron247> two buttons?
[18:29] <astron247> or, yes, just a custom button
[18:29] <astron247> anyway, id really really really rather like to have palettes in libo
[18:29] <mirek2_> would it still open within the pop-over, or in a dialog?
[18:31] <mirek2_> ok, so keep the sidebar then
[18:31] <mirek2_> let's keep it that way
[18:31] <astron247> well, if throwing everything out. we can make a dialogue out of it...
[18:31] <mirek2_> :) let's keep it as it is
[18:32] <mirek2_> just remove the "Colors in Use" section
[18:33] <astron247> maybe instead of the document colours/colours in use section, we could try to find out via some heuristics, if another libo palette was used before and then automatically switch to that per document
[18:33] <mirek2_> I'd be against bundling multiple palettes with LibreOffice
[18:33] <mirek2_> color themes sure, but not palettes
[18:34] <astron247> then ... the palettes feature becomes pointless again
[18:34] <mirek2_> it's a niche feature
[18:35] <mirek2_> what do you see as an advantage of palettes for the common user over theme colors?
[18:35] <mirek2_> what's a use-case?
[18:36] <astron247> its possible to do without a proprietary modification of odf, no restriction to 8 colours
[18:37] <mirek2_> it could be part of the next ODF version
[18:41] <mirek2_> as I see it, we want to encourage users to use variables rather than hard-coded values
[18:41] <mirek2_> if they use theme colors, they'll have the possibility to change the look of their document really quickly
[18:41] <astron247> well, the good thing about it is that we could spin colour themes as an interop feature (everyone want) rather than a ux feature (nobody care)
[18:42] <mirek2_> or just update a single color over their whole document
[18:42] == kotte_ [~kotte@p5B344BB1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #libreoffice-design
[18:42] <mirek2_> I wouldn't say nobody cares
[18:42] <mirek2_> I've wanted themes in Impress for ages
[18:43] <astron247> right. but nobody likes to pay for it
[18:43] <mirek2_> yeah, all development seems to be centered on compatibility nowadays
[18:43] <mirek2_> except for GSOC projects
[18:44] <astron247> and even those get use import from ms products
[18:44] <mirek2_> right
[18:45] <mirek2_> in any case, I think palettes are a niche feature and bundling several would cause more harm than good
[18:46] <astron247> because you think people would try to mix&match?
[18:47] <mirek2_> because I think theme colors do a much better job for most use cases
[18:47] <mirek2_> and work well with styles
[18:48] <mirek2_> palettes make sense only when you know you want hard-coded values
[18:49] <mirek2_> for drawings, they make sense
[18:49] <mirek2_> for styling, not so much
[18:49] <astron247> (btw: if you look in ~/.config/libreoffice/3/user/config, you'll find multiple palettes that we already ship)
[18:50] <astron247> so, what youre saying is that we might want palettes for shapes, but not for text?
[18:52] <mirek2_> I'm saying that multiple palettes are a niche feature, that we should ship with one well-designed palette with all the colors of the rainbow
[18:52] <mirek2_> there are definitely use-cases where using palettes for text makes sense
[18:54] == kotte_ [~kotte@p5B344BB1.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #libreoffice-design ["Konversation terminated!"]
[18:54] <mirek2_> in any case, let's move onto another topic
[18:54] <mirek2_> I'll keep the sidebar in the mockups
[18:55] <astron247> ok...
[18:56] <mirek2_> I'd like to discuss the 4.0 branding process
[18:56] <mirek2_> not sure if you read my messages on the design list
[18:57] <mirek2_> I don't think we have time for a poll
[18:57] <astron247> right.
[18:58] <astron247> i didnt read everything
[18:58] <mirek2_> and I wouldn't know where to do a poll (it would need to allow voting for multiple items, downvoting, not requiring an account, but there'd also need to be a way to check that people don't abuse the system)
[18:59] <mirek2_> so I'm thinking to ask for comments on the proposals today
[19:00] <astron247> right. but the issue is, that we really cant decide among the three/four of us who should make it... otoh, the last time we let everyone have a say i didnt (imho) turn out that well
[19:03] <mirek2_> so what would you propose?
[19:03] <astron247> ...
[19:04] <astron247> lets discuss if we can use any of them at all...
[19:05] <mirek2_> well, the ones that follow the original Swiss design premise are:
[19:05] <astron247> aexyn.com's – unrealistic progress bar
[19:05] <astron247> yours – usable (even if i dont fancy it much)
[19:05] <astron247> uri's – completely non-standard logo, but most swiss feel
[19:06] <mirek2_> ones by Mirek2, UriHerrera, k-j, Medieval, Pedro, Mateus.m.luna
[19:06] <mirek2_> and Harvey Cabaguio's, who hasn't submitted it to the wiki
[19:07] <mirek2_> I don't really fancy mine much either anymore :)
[19:07] <SteveBell> what about alexanders?
[19:07] <mirek2_> UriHerrera's uses completely non-brand colors
[19:07] <astron247> javier's – completely non-standard logo
[19:07] <astron247> k-j –usable, but imho too bland (and dark)
[19:07] <astron247> medieval – usable
[19:07] <astron247> pedro – non-standard logo
[19:07] <mirek2_> SteveBell: it's just not Swiss
[19:07] <astron247> mateus – usable, and third one's my favourite
[19:07] <astron247> alex – non-standard logo
[19:08] <SteveBell> what does that mean? the libreoffice file icon is not represented?
[19:08] <astron247> it doesnt matter if initially you couldnt change the palettes, but...
[19:08] <astron247> sorry
[19:09] <astron247> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Typographic_Style
[19:10] <astron247> mirek2: at the same time, alex's/andy's idea is a nicer continuation of what we have today
[19:10] <astron247> but i am not sure he is using the right colours
[19:10] <astron247> (ie branding colours)
[19:11] <SteveBell> I'm still not sure what the problem is with alex' proposal. So the font should be aligned to the left or right?!?
[19:11] <astron247> steve: look at uris idea for a good swiss-feeling design
[19:12] <mirek2_> a bigger problem with Alex's proposal is that there's no way that the progress bar on the splash and the Start Center could be tweaked to be as they are pictured
[19:12] <mirek2_> (as it's past UI freeze)
[19:12] <SteveBell> I read the wikipedia article. I#m still not sure I understand what you mean
[19:12] <astron247> http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2009/07/17/lessons-from-swiss-style-graphic-design/
[19:13] <mirek2_> Swiss style emphasizes cleanliness and simplicity, therefore has a tendency to use few colors
[19:13] <astron247> as the article we always give out... has some nice examples
[19:13] <mirek2_> that means no gradients (as those use tons of slightly different shades of colors)
[19:14] <SteveBell> and why is gradients a problem?
[19:14] <mirek2_> as I said, it's not Swiss style, and Swiss was part of the scope
[19:14] <SteveBell> hm I find that a strange and weak argument
[19:15] <SteveBell> but swiss FTW I guess?
[19:15] <astron247> technically, it is also a problem, as we'd need to remove the outer border from the progress bar somehow.
[19:15] <mirek2_> we'll still consider Alex's, but it's not Swiss style, so preference will be given to the others
[19:15] <astron247> (we can make it single-coloured, but we can't make it match the gradient)
[19:15] <mirek2_> astron247: the splash is the least of our problems -- we definitely couldn't redesign the Start center as proposed
[19:16] <astron247> that is another problem – no idea why alex creates such senseless stuff
[19:16] <SteveBell> mirek2_ why is that? are there rules for the start center?
[19:17] <mirek2_> SteveBell: it would require some developer time (not a trifling amount either), and it's already past UI freeze
[19:18] <mirek2_> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleasePlan/4.0#4.0.0_release
[19:18] <SteveBell> well I'm not sure, but if that is the problem the existing structure could be used and maybe alex could redesign the startcenter.
[19:19] <mirek2_> certainly
[19:19] <SteveBell> I'm just saying. swiss or not, e.g. the proposals by mateus look like fromthe early 90s
[19:19] <mirek2_> as I said, we won't dismiss the proposal, but the fact that it's not Swiss-style and that it requires additional design work hurts the proposal's chances
[19:20] == maximi89 [~maximi89@unaffiliated/maximi89] has joined #libreoffice-design
[19:20] <maximi89> for what is this chan?
[19:20] <SteveBell> hi maximi89. we are in the midst of discussing the branding of LO 4.
[19:20] <maximi89> hi SteveBell
[19:21] <mirek2_> SteveBell: I personally like Mateus's proposal the most out of all the proposals
[19:22] <SteveBell> really? those colors bite my eye
[19:22] <SteveBell> which one of his three contributions?
[19:22] <mirek2_> really? I think they're tons better than our actual branding colors
[19:22] <maximi89> where we can see the designs?
[19:22] <SteveBell> maximi89 https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/4.0_Branding#Proposal_by_UriHerrera
[19:22] <maximi89> thanks
[19:22] <mirek2_> SteveBell: actually, all of them, though I prefer the first
[19:23] <mirek2_> I like the third one the least
[19:23] <SteveBell> mirek2_ well design preference is hard to argue about but I think that's the worst. I really would consider installing MS if I had to look at that on each startup :P
[19:24] <mirek2_> :) ok, your comments will be considered next week, when we discuss all of them
[19:24] <astron247> mirek2: i think the first one went overbord with colours, almost (i know its just three) ... last ones my preference
[19:24] <SteveBell> then I'd rather go with https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Intro_4.png which is neutral
[19:24] <mirek2_> anyway, is it alright if I ask people to comment on the proposals on our mailing list?
[19:24] <astron247> sure
[19:25] <SteveBell> I find that not ideal for discussions. it would be one long thread of several discussions
[19:25] <SteveBell> why not the wiki page
[19:25] <mirek2_> no -- the design list really is meant for discussions
[19:26] <SteveBell> ok so unsubscribed people can chime in via nabble?
[19:26] <mirek2_> it won't be a thread of several discussions -- there'll be a single discussion, centered on the branding proposals
[19:26] <mirek2_> SteveBell: to use nabble, you need to be subscribed using the no-mail option
[19:27] <mirek2_> but you won't be receiving any mail -- it's just to prevent spam
[19:27] <mirek2_> btw, I'll also contact Harvey if we can consider his proposal: http://browse.deviantart.com/?qh=&section=&global=1&q=libreoffice#/d5qmd6i
[19:28] <maximi89> this looks very good https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/4.0_Branding#Proposal_by_Javier_Antonio_Nisa_.C3.81vila
[19:29] <maximi89> I guess would be good to release LibreOffice with a theme of  Persona by default
[19:29] <mirek2_> I've expressed my feelings toward this on the mailing list
[19:29] <SteveBell> maximi89 if you want please join next week where the descision on the proposals will be made
[19:30] <mirek2_> Astron, care to chime in about the bundled persona?
[19:30] <maximi89> I read about this on Diaspora xd
[19:30] <maximi89> SteveBell: which day?
[19:30] <astron247> not really
[19:30] <SteveBell> and personas are a bit overkill as a default I think. But if a developer finds time it might be nice to have a matching persona for the 4.0 branding available
[19:30] <astron247> if its inconspicuous enough...
[19:30] <mirek2_> astron247: a simple yes or no will suffice
[19:30] <SteveBell> next saturday
[19:31] <mirek2_> I myself would be against a persona for 4.0
[19:31] <mirek2_> definitely if it's on by default, since we want to respect the platform's look
[19:32] <mirek2_> and if it's not, then I doubt anyone would discover it
[19:32] <maximi89> so If no a persona by default what about a color by default? I mean a background color not the gray who looks ugly
[19:32] <mirek2_> as stated, we want to respect the platform's look
[19:32] <mirek2_> on all platforms except Windows, we use the default background color
[19:33] <mirek2_> on Windows, there is no clear default
[19:33] <astron247> on mac, we apparently use pure white, which is not really the default colour
[19:33] <SteveBell> maximi89 default is a bit harsh. and if this is communicated I think the community might come up with a matching 4.0 branding persona
[19:33] <astron247> that leaves qt & gtk platforms (i.e. linux)
[19:34] <mirek2_> what default are you talking about exactly?
[19:34] <mirek2_> the toolbar background on Windows?
[19:34] <mirek2_> the document background?
[19:35] <astron247> are you talking to me mirek2?
[19:35] <SteveBell> toolbar and document look both white for me on OS X
[19:35] <astron247> steve: we have a bug about that, btw
[19:35] <mirek2_> document background should be gray on Mac OS
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[19:35] <mirek2_> toolbar background is something to fix
[19:36] <mirek2_> anyway, I feel like we're bikeshedding here
[19:36] == maximi89 [~maximi89@unaffiliated/maximi89] has joined #libreoffice-design
[19:37] <maximi89> in MacOS what LO use? QT? other?
[19:37] <mirek2_> the toolkit is VCl
[19:37] <mirek2_> the platform look is emulated
[19:37] <maximi89> another question if you know, Why LibreOffice is not distributed using Torrent?
[19:38] <mirek2_> maximi89: it is
[19:38] <mirek2_> just click the "Torrent" link on the download page
[19:38] <mirek2_> at least for Linux it is
[19:38] <astron247> right, now were derailed completely.
[19:38] <mirek2_> let's just figure out how we're going to decide
[19:38] <mirek2_> my proposed plan:
[19:39] <astron247> so, is there anything else we really need to discuss about the splash screens?
[19:39] <astron247> thanks, mirek!
[19:39] <mirek2_> I don't think we should discuss the splashes yet
[19:39] <mirek2_> it's too soon -- we don't have the proposals yet
[19:39] <maximi89> mirek2_: right, I never seen it before XD
[19:40] <SteveBell> mirek2_ if alex' proposal needs tweaking (e.g. the startcenter) we should let him know
[19:41] <mirek2_> 1) post on Google+, reiterate the conditions (that should let Alex know), ask for comments about proposals
[19:41] <mirek2_> 2) discuss the proposals on the next IRC chat, taking the conditions and the comments in mind, decide on the winnder
[19:41] <mirek2_> winner
[19:41] <mirek2_> 3) post on our social networks announcing the winner, ask for additional comment
[19:42] <mirek2_> if the feedback is overwhelmingly negative, switch back to 3.6 branding
[19:42] <astron247> ok, then we should have time to set up a poll on g+/fb/ml/whatever to gauge public opinion?
[19:42] <mirek2_> I wouldn't set up a poll
[19:42] <astron247> (on friday or thursday)
[19:42] <mirek2_> but rather ask for comment
[19:42] <SteveBell> where would that poll be? (I think it's a good idea)
[19:43] <mirek2_> alright, if you both think a poll is a good idea, then let's do it
[19:44] <mirek2_> on FB, on G+, on the ml, and, steve, if you arrange it, on Diaspora as well
[19:44] <astron247> well, maybe using the word poll is ill-advised, since we will discuss the results again
[19:44] <mirek2_> we'll include the current splash in the running as wel
[19:44] <astron247> (and then decide)
[19:44] <SteveBell> I'd rather go for a single poll and post a link on all platforms
[19:45] <mirek2_> the poll will be on the mailing list, then, as that's the most vendor-neutral platform
[19:45] <astron247> having people still on their networks is useful, since we can then at least try to sort out people voting twice for the same design
[19:45] <SteveBell> do you have an example poll to look at?
[19:46] <mirek2_> basically, the proposals are written down with a number next to them
[19:46] <astron247> steve: look at our g+ site, somewhere at the bottom we had the poll for the current splash
[19:47] <mirek2_> astron247: actually, if a person has a diaspora, a fb, a g+, and a ml account, it'd be very hard to tell if he's voted several times
[19:47] <mirek2_> it's easier to keep track on one platform
[19:47] <mirek2_> on a ml, each proposal is written down with a "0" next to it
[19:48] <mirek2_> a person votes by replying by adding a 1 or a -1 or no number
[19:48] <mirek2_> btw, we can't have a poll yet, since the proposals are not in
[19:48] <astron247> mirek2: not if its an anonymous platform. and i think the ml is not the ideal place to hold a poll, since people have to register first and then can't simply +1. when i didnt yet know mls, they seemed very scary to me.
[19:48] <SteveBell> wow that is complicated. but of course you need to take care of people not voting twice. but I can also signup endlessly on a mailing list
[19:48] <mirek2_> we'll be able to have a poll only after next Saturday
[19:49] <mirek2_> since not all the proposals are in
[19:49] <astron247> so for anyone who already uses the ml, its probably fine, for everyone else its not-so-great
[19:49] <mirek2_> astron247: so Diaspora, then? that's the only anonymous network we're on
[19:50] <maximi89> mirek2_: actually I have put a message in spanish :D http://cams.hhba.info/
[19:50] <maximi89> oh! that is not the right xd
[19:50] <maximi89> https://diasp.org/posts/1649085
[19:50] <astron247> i meant to say anonymity was bad, not good
[19:51] <astron247> also, how are people on diaspora anonymous?
[19:51] <SteveBell> lol. well you can sign up endless times on any platform, no? that's why I'm asking myself, why a simply vote like poll daddy wouldn't be sufficient?
[19:51] <mirek2_> unlike G+ and FB, Diaspora doesn't require real names
[19:52] <SteveBell> like e.g. here: http://9to5mac.com/2012/11/03/poll-is-it-socially-acceptable-to-take-photosvideo-with-your-ipad-mini/
[19:52] <maximi89> so libreoffice_design@diasp.eu is your guys?
[19:52] <SteveBell> how is G+ enforcing my real name? They tried but didn#t proced due to community outrage
[19:53] <SteveBell> yes maximi89
[19:53] <maximi89> nice
[19:53] <mirek2_> SteveBell: actually, G+ still requires real names
[19:54] <maximi89> Actually lot of people use Diaspora networks, lot of Pods exists, but of course, only people who know a bit more than normal people using G+ or FCB
[19:54] <SteveBell> are they asking for passports or what?
[19:54] <astron247> no, but they have it in their network rules
[19:54] <SteveBell> so they don't enfore it as I said?
[19:54] <SteveBell> *enforce
[19:55] <mirek2_> they don't enforce it, but they require it
[19:55] <SteveBell> uh boy. that doesn't keep people from signing up 100 times, does it?
[19:56] <SteveBell> all I'm saying that there's no good way to make sure people only vote once
[19:56] <mirek2_> of course not
[19:56] <maximi89> there are some opensource projects like MediaGoblin who I know in D*, they seems to be like Youtube and Owncloud too
[19:56] <mirek2_> I'm still against having a poll
[19:56] <SteveBell> maximi89 please stick to the topic
[19:57] <mirek2_> especially as it would postpone the process
[19:57] <mirek2_> by a week
[19:57] <SteveBell> mirek2_ why is that? because it won't generate any useful information and might suggest that the whole descision is voted on?
[19:57] <SteveBell> those are good reasons
[19:57] <mirek2_> since the submission deadline is next IRC chat, the poll will make sense only afterwards
[19:58] <mirek2_> otherwise, we might not be including all the proposals, which would be very unfair to the ones who propose late
[19:58] <maximi89> sorry, SteveBell what are you discussing right now?
[19:59] <SteveBell> yes, I hear you. Then I'm rather uncertain if it's useful. because what good would it do?
[19:59] <SteveBell> maximi89 we are discussion wether we should do a poll about the branding proposals or not
[19:59] <mirek2_> that's what I'm saying -- let's not have a poll, we don't have time for it
[20:00] <SteveBell> ok, then the odds are against it. let's encourage a broad discussion instead and try to get people involved, although nabble and signing up to a mailing list might hold many people off...
[20:01] <maximi89> well, I guess would be good to have a poll but based in the options in the page?
[20:01] <mirek2_> I'll tell them to leave a comment if they're really uncomfortable with an ml
[20:01] <mirek2_> maximi89: what do you mean by that?
[20:04] <maximi89> mirek2_: the poll will be about the actual branding or about a filtered one?
[20:04] <mirek2_> so, everyone agree with the process I proposed?
[20:05] == SteveBell [~Adium@mnhm-590e76b9.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
[20:05] <mirek2_> maximi89: there probably won't be a poll
[20:05] <maximi89> uhmm right
[20:05] <maximi89> so which will the method?
[20:05] <maximi89> mail list?
[20:05] <mirek2_> ask people for comments today, in case they can't make it to the IRC chat
[20:06] <mirek2_> then next IRC chat evaluate and discuss the proposals, pick a winning one (or decide to stay with the one we have)
[20:06] <mirek2_> then announce it on social networks, ask for feedback
[20:06] == SteveBell [~Adium@mnhm-590e76b9.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #libreoffice-design
[20:07] <mirek2_> if it's mainly negative, then return back to the branding from 3.6
[20:07] <astron247> btw... please look at https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleasePlan/4.0#4.0.0_release again...
[20:07] <mirek2_> agreed?
[20:08] <astron247> we can expect rc2 to be tagged on tuesday/wednesday next week, so wed really have to decide now or leave it be
[20:09] <SteveBell> what's being decided?
[20:09] <SteveBell> sry got cut off for a sec
[20:09] <mirek2_> astron247: Charles Schultz proposed the deadline
[20:09] <astron247> oh ok. hes not developer of course... but ok
[20:09] <mirek2_> astron247: we really need to make a decision next IRC chat, though
[20:10] <astron247> agreed then
[20:10] <astron247> ok. shall we end it here?
[20:10] <mirek2_> hold on
[20:11] <mirek2_> you might have read that a third-party team is working on redesigning some parts of the LibO website
[20:11] <SteveBell> yes the indians
[20:12] <mirek2_> oh, hold on, I mean to ask one more thing about branding
[20:12] <mirek2_> Mateus's proposal is awesome, but it doesn't use official colors, it seems
[20:13] <astron247> ach
[20:13] <mirek2_> does that eliminate his proposal? should I ask him to redo it in official colors? or is there a chance we change our colors, since they suck?
[20:13] <mirek2_> (if it's the latter, then I need to ask the marketing team right away)
[20:14] <astron247> we certainly cant change colours right now
[20:14] <astron247> that would be one more variable in the puzzle.
[20:14] <astron247> (that metaphor doesnt make sense)
[20:14] <mirek2_> ok, I'll ask him to redo it
[20:15] <mirek2_> and I'll double-check whether he's not using the default colors
[20:15] <astron247> good.
[20:15] <mirek2_> it's ok if he uses the colors from the color table, right?
[20:15] <maximi89> liked me more the one of https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/4.0_Branding#Proposal_by_UriHerrera
[20:15] <maximi89> sorry https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:JavierAntonioNisaAvila_splash_1.png
[20:16] <mirek2_> maximi89: unfortunately, that one has third-party elements, so it's not licensed appropriately, and doesn't follow branding guidelines
[20:16] <mirek2_> so it's eliminated unless it's changed
[20:17] <mirek2_> astron247: or does he have to use pitch black and "Green 1" in the logo
[20:17] <mirek2_> let me rephrase my question: does the logo need to be 100% opacity?
[20:18] == crepererum [~kvirc@HSI-KBW-095-208-070-101.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #libreoffice-design
[20:18] <astron247> nah, lets relax this rule
[20:18] <mirek2_> :) ok
[20:19] <mirek2_> anything I should tell the website designers?
[20:20] <astron247> make sure that people dont have to click twice on downlad before there is something to download?
[20:20] <astron247> (and if we do that, at least label the first button "go to download page")
[20:20] <mirek2_> :) ok
[20:20] <astron247> are you in contact with them already?
[20:21] <mirek2_> yes, they sent me an e-mail
[20:21] <maximi89> but mirek2_ can be added more until 25 right?
[20:21] <astron247> cool
[20:21] <astron247> maximi89: ??
[20:21] <mirek2_> maximi89: yes
[20:21] <mirek2_> the deadline is the 25th
[20:22] <maximi89> nice, going to put a message if someone can do a nice brand
[20:22] <maximi89> :D
[20:22] <mirek2_> alright, let's end this chat
[20:23] <mirek2_> I'll put up the log