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    • Feldo
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    • medieval
    • mirek2


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    [18:07] <Feldo> Hello.
    [18:07] <Feldo> I'm new here.
    [18:08] <Feldo> It's the right time for the meeting, right?
    [18:09] <mirek2> hi guys
    [18:09] <Feldo> Hello.
    [18:10] <mirek2> has the conversation started?
    [18:10] <mirek2> if so, what did I miss?
    [18:10] <astron247> hi all
    [18:11] <Feldo> Hi.
    [18:11] <Feldo> No, no conversation started for the moment.
    [18:11] <mirek2> alright
    [18:12] <astron247> hm, then esc update first?
    [18:12] <mirek2> yes please :)
    [18:13] <Feldo> Er, what means "esc update"? ^^;
    [18:13] <Feldo> That's the first time I come here.
    [18:14] <mirek2> ESC is the acronym for Engineering Steering Committee
    [18:15] <mirek2> they have a call every Thursday and publish minutes on the dev mailing list
    [18:15] <mirek2> Astron usually attends as a representative of the design team
    [18:15] <astron247> * not much to say – we didnt discuss the new artwork;
    [18:15] <astron247> * i kind of asked michael m if it were ok if we started to ship the gradients from symphony and he didn't really reply, but made it an action item
    [18:15] <astron247> * michael s finally looked into the sub-/superscript bug that we wanted them to look into – since then its notabug again
    [18:16] <Feldo> mirek2: okay.
    [18:16] <astron247> (about the gradients: i think he still has to look into the licensing thing)
    [18:16] <mirek2> what exactly do you mean by "its notabug again"? has it been rejected?
    [18:16] <astron247> oh, and kendy is on holiday, but maybe mirek can tell us how it goes with the proposed design easy hacks
    [18:17] <mirek2> there's not really anything to say yet
    [18:17] <mirek2> I still don't have my computer fixed
    [18:17] <astron247> mirek2: yes, rainer and michael thought it doesn't make much sense.
    [18:17] <mirek2> so I haven't devoted that much time to it
    [18:18] <mirek2> astron247: that the proposed fix doesn't make sense? how? it seems very rational
    [18:18] <mirek2> one rarely needs to apply sub/superscript to a whole word
    [18:18] <astron247> i posted the link ↑
    [18:18] <mirek2> oh, ok, I'll read the comments
    [18:20] <mirek2> their response is pretty discouraging
    [18:20] <mirek2> the reasoning seems to be that since we've been doing it for a while and since another suite does it, we should do it too, even if it doesn't make sense
    [18:22] <astron247> michael also posted this on the dev list:
    [18:22] <mirek2> has anyone suggested a use case for the current behavior, because I can't see one?
    [18:22] <astron247> not really.
    [18:22] <astron247> at the same time, i agree that the bug is not incredibly important
    [18:22] <@medieval> hi all
    [18:23] <astron247> hi
    [18:23] <mirek2> astron247: what worries me more is the attitude
    [18:23] <astron247> right
    [18:23] <mirek2> hi
    [18:24] <astron247> medieval:
    [18:24] <Feldo> Hi medieval.
    [18:24] <mirek2> also, the bug is not important to us, but it's important enough to raise a long discussion on by a user
    [18:24] <mirek2> so... what can we do now?
    [18:25] <astron247> not much, i guess. except hire a new developer :)
    [18:25] <mirek2> :)
    [18:25] <mirek2> if a developer wants to fix it, could he?
    [18:26] <astron247> im sure fo that
    [18:26] <mirek2> ok
    [18:26] <astron247> its kind of a systemic problem, though, that ux in libreoffice is regarded as an also-ran
    [18:26] <@medieval> what the bug there?
    [18:26] <mirek2>
    [18:26] <mirek2> hi issa
    [18:26] <issa> hi
    [18:27] <@medieval> hi issa
    [18:27] <astron247> hi
    [18:27] <mirek2> astron247: yeah, I hope that'll change
    [18:27] <issa> sorry forgot about the meeting
    [18:27] <issa> not sure I can stay long though
    [18:27] <mirek2> ok, that's fine
    [18:27] <mirek2> let's talk about icons, then
    [18:27] <issa> sure
    [18:27] <astron247> i dont believe it – because what the big customers want is apparently mostly full compatibility with mso and not much else, it seems
    [18:28] <@medieval> flat icon set?
    [18:28] <@medieval> issa made a great mockups
    [18:28] <mirek2> astron247: sure, but we have a safety net for UX changes -- AOO
    [18:28] <astron247> how is that a safety net?
    [18:29] <mirek2> we can experiment with the UI and if we mess up, our user has the option switch back to AOO or an old version of ours until we fix the mess
    [18:30] <issa> while that's true I don't think we want people to switch back to AOO
    [18:30] <astron247> that sounds like a terrible idea, especially as aoo 4 is going to be quite a bit different it seems
    [18:31] <astron247> also, what issa said
    [18:31] <mirek2> well, UX changes are always risky, but they also have the potential to bring users
    [18:32] <astron247> thats not the point though – they are often development intensive for no "real" gain
    [18:32] <astron247> ok ... lets skip this, shall we?
    [18:32] <issa> a good new look will attract a lot of users
    [18:32] <mirek2> sure :)
    [18:33] <issa> sure
    [18:33] <mirek2> issa: since you're leading the project, tell us what you need, what the status is, ...
    [18:34] <issa> to be honest I'm not sure
    [18:34] <issa> I just planned to go over them one by one
    [18:34] <mirek2> review your proposed icons?
    [18:35] <mirek2> sure, we could do that
    [18:35] <Feldo> (Is there a program about the content of the metting? Or we can talk about anything about the design of LO?)
    [18:35] <mirek2> Feldo: we can talk about anything
    [18:35] <issa> these are the icons I've proposed if anyone haven't seen them
    [18:36] <astron247> feldo: on our mailing list, mirek usually posts something
    [18:36] <astron247> let me look
    [18:36] <Feldo> mirek2: ok
    [18:37] <astron247> feldo: – those are the fixed topics, usually we discuss other matters also
    [18:37] <issa> I plan to write a small guideline from what I can gather from gnome
    [18:37] <mirek2> the things I post are usually just topics we should go through, and if anyone can't attend, they can post a topic they'd like discussed
    [18:37] <Feldo> astron247:ok, thanks. I'm going to read it.
    [18:37] <@medieval> (and possible colored ones
    [18:37] <mirek2> issa: I think it'd be better to contact jimmac first, say that we want to design some icons and then push them upstream
    [18:38] <issa> sure, will do
    [18:38] <mirek2> great :)
    [18:38] <astron247> but if gnomes icons are grey and ours are coloured, how will this work?
    [18:38] <issa> which is better email or irc?
    [18:38] <astron247> irc, i guess
    [18:38] <issa> astron247: we push them upstream then color them :)
    [18:38] <mirek2> issa: if he's available, irc is better
    [18:39] <issa> ok
    [18:39] <astron247> also, will gnome be interested in all our "power user" icons?
    [18:39] <mirek2> they include GIMP and Inkscape icons, so I think they will
    [18:40] <issa> and there are already symbolic versions of the LibreOffice programs icons
    [18:40] <astron247> oh i didnt know that
    [18:41] <issa>
    [18:41] <issa> I'm not sure whether they are actually used or not yet
    [18:41] <mirek2> I don't think gnome uses symbolic icons very much yet
    [18:41] <mirek2> that may change as they work on their HIG
    [18:41] <issa> yeah, only in the sidebar and status
    [18:42] <mirek2> we should also figure out a good icon making workflow
    [18:43] <mirek2> I wrote to Máirín Duffy and she told me that "MagicMockup is stable enough, Glitter Gallery still needs a lot of work"
    [18:43] <mirek2> SparkleShare is stable enough to use
    [18:44] <issa> wait which one is MM and which one is GG?
    [18:44] <mirek2> so we could use that, but previewing icons would be annoying
    [18:44] <astron247> why that?
    [18:44] <mirek2> issa: MM: tools for producing interactive mockups with Inkscape
    [18:44] <issa> oh
    [18:44] <mirek2> issa: GG: a gallery of mockup previews, along with a comment system
    [18:45] <issa> then GG is what we need the most
    [18:45] <mirek2> astron247: well, git is not a good tool for previewing work online
    [18:45] <mirek2> though with icons it doesn't matter that much
    [18:46] <mirek2> astron247: do we have a git repository that we can use?
    [18:46] <issa> anyway I suggest we make a version of each basic/standard icon following the same metaphor in tango icon set
    [18:46] <astron247> the original artwork repo is still unused
    [18:46] <issa> we only polish and edit them after voting
    [18:47] <mirek2> issa: we should use the same metaphor as in the Gnome icon set or the Tango testing set
    [18:47] <mirek2> issa: voting?
    [18:47] <issa> does the Tango testing differ from the current Tango?
    [18:47] <issa> not voting, more like gathering feedback
    [18:47] <mirek2> yes, quite a lot
    [18:47] <astron247> yes, quite a bit for common icons
    [18:48] <issa> oh I wasn't aware
    [18:48] <mirek2> Tango testing is based on the Gnome 3 icon set
    [18:48] <mirek2> however, it's still a work in progress, so some symbols may change
    [18:49] <astron247> issa: you can try tango testing in any pre-release version of libo
    [18:49] <issa> I see
    [18:49] <mirek2> issa: how exactly do you imagine this working?
    [18:49] <issa> yeah I know, but never looked much into them
    [18:50] <mirek2> be aware that there are tons of icons to do for LibreOffice
    [18:50] <mirek2> (not to discourage you or anything, but having a review cycle for each icon would take a while)
    [18:50] <issa> we need to identify reusable parts
    [18:51] <issa> the file symbol, the pluses and stuff like that
    [18:51] <issa> ...I am a bit clueless
    [18:51] <mirek2> that sounds good
    [18:51] <issa> maybe focus on them toolbar by toolbar?
    [18:51] <mirek2> that sounds good as well :)
    [18:51] <mirek2> should we use git for uploading the icons?
    [18:52] <astron247> some icons are in multiple applications in multiple toolbars ...
    [18:52] <mirek2> if so, how do we deal with commit access there?
    [18:52] <issa> that's even better, when we get to later toolbars they won't be empty :)
    [18:53] <issa> I'm not sure I can answer the git question
    [18:53] <@medieval> (as I look there are ariund 3860 icons to be made)
    [18:54] <mirek2> right, exactly
    [18:55] <@medieval> but most of them are just copy/paste with little position change
    [18:55] <issa> exactly
    [18:56] <astron247> medieval: even if thats true of 50% of them that still leaves you with a huge amount of icons
    [18:56] <@medieval> yes
    [18:57] <@medieval> ofcourse
    [18:58] <issa> I am aware that it would take a lot of time and effort, but I think we NEED to do it
    [18:58] <mirek2> I think so too
    [18:58] <astron247> ok
    [18:58] <mirek2> but we do need to figure out a way to work on it
    [18:59] <issa> to put them in points
    [18:59] <issa> 1- identify reusable parts
    [18:59] <issa> 2- standardize sizing and positioning (curves too?)
    [18:59] <issa> 3- design reusable parts
    [18:59] <issa> 4- handle icons toolbar by toolbar
    [19:00] <mirek2> astron247: not being well-versed in git, I'm wondering how collaboration on git would work
    [19:00] <astron247> isnt sparkleshare supposed to solve that?
    [19:00] <@medieval> iisa: colors?
    [19:01] <mirek2> I mean, how does one get commit access?
    [19:02] <mirek2> specific only to the artwork repo, of course
    [19:02] <@medieval> sparkleshare again?
    [19:02] <issa> medieval: I think we should get to colors once we're done from initial design
    [19:02] <@medieval> ok
    [19:02] <mirek2> issa: if you catch jimmac on irc, could you invite him here?
    [19:03] <issa> mirek2: do you mean now?
    [19:03] <mirek2> yes
    [19:03] <issa> ok
    [19:03] <astron247> mirek: we could maybe run this over gerrit, for which you only need to register yourself
    [19:04] <astron247> of course, that would probably annoy developers with lots of (to them) irrelevant commits
    [19:04] <astron247> (depending on how active we are)
    [19:05] <mirek2> hm...
    [19:06] <astron247> another option would be to start this on github/gitorious
    [19:06] <mirek2> that sounds better
    [19:07] <issa> agreed
    [19:07] <mirek2> still, how is commit access handled?
    [19:07] <mirek2> can any contributor grant commit access?
    [19:08] <mirek2> also, how open do we want this process to be?
    [19:08] <astron247> github makes pull requests relatively easy
    [19:09] <astron247> i am not sure how commit access is handled, but supposedly there is one or more project admins
    [19:09] <issa> Mirek2: PMed jimmac, doesn't look like he's there
    [19:10] <mirek2> okay
    [19:10] <issa> I think we can request it on the mailing list (or from any of the "big guys")
    [19:11] <mirek2> alright
    [19:11] <Feldo> Is the icon theme include icons for math formula buttons too? Or is it totally different from themes?
    [19:12] <issa> not sure
    [19:12] <mirek2> I have no clue
    [19:13] <mirek2> it'd be good to try the workflow out
    [19:14] <astron247> feldo: the math icons in every theme currently come from the galaxy theme – because no one wanted to do the tedious job of replacing a 100 (or more?) text-only icons
    [19:14] <astron247> (yet)
    [19:14] <Feldo> Because I see pixels in formula buttons. Look like they need a good revamp, too, if they're not in the theme.
    [19:15] <Feldo> astron247: so a new theme would solve the problem?
    [19:15] <@medieval> (they are included)
    [19:15] <Feldo> okay.
    [19:15] <mirek2> Feldo: well, one could simply propose better icons
    [19:15] <mirek2> for the current icon theme
    [19:16] <astron247> feldo: you can theme, but we haven't done that yet. i agree they're in need though
    [19:16] <Feldo> oh?
    [19:16] <astron247> ^theme^theme them
    [19:16] <Feldo> Yes, that, and there is a need to make it more like LateX options.
    [19:17] <astron247> ??
    [19:17] <Feldo> I mean, friends in computing studies complained about it, so I guess it's needed.
    [19:18] <astron247> i have never worked with latex so far
    [19:18] <Feldo> Some buttons/functions seem missing, comparing with other freewares using LatX for writing math formulas.
    [19:19] <mirek2> post a bug report, perhaps?
    [19:19] <astron247> feldo: talk to olivier hallot about that – he was the last one to add things there
    [19:19] <Feldo> okay.
    [19:20] <Feldo> Although there is a LateX plugin for LO already available.
    [19:20] <astron247> ok. back to the icons, i suppose?
    [19:20] <Feldo> Before doing further improvements, I mean.
    [19:20] <Feldo> Yes
    [19:21] <issa> ok
    [19:21] <mirek2_> who is the current admin of the git repo?
    [19:22] <issa> no idea
    [19:22] <mirek2_> astron247: in case you missed the question: who is the current admin of the git repo?
    [19:23] <astron247> on
    [19:23] <mirek2_> yes
    [19:23] <astron247> the people
    [19:23] <mirek2_> I meant, of the artwork repo
    [19:23] <astron247> same
    [19:23] <astron247> you always get commit access for the entirety of libo repos
    [19:24] <astron247> to get commit access, you have to file a bug on fdo, find a sponsor from libo, then they let you in
    [19:25] <mirek2_> not really fitting for our icon design
    [19:25] <mirek2_> where we probably want to be more open
    [19:26] <issa> if we git is too much trouble we could try SparkleShare
    [19:27] <astron247> sparkleshare uses git
    [19:27] <issa> oh
    [19:27] <mirek2_> exactly
    [19:27] <issa> dropbox :P?
    [19:27] <mirek2_> it just makes it more user-friendly
    [19:28] <mirek2_> issa: not that open-source friendly, but it is an option
    [19:28] <mirek2_> astron247: would it be possible to have a completely separate artwork repository
    [19:29] <mirek2_> so that we could be liberal with commit access
    [19:29] <astron247> i guess it'd be a bit complicated on fdo, but why not on github?
    [19:29] <astron247> the only thing wed have to make sure of is that everyone contributes under an acceptable license
    [19:30] <mirek2_> yes
    [19:31] <issa> cool
    [19:31] <mirek2_> that's a problem we'd have on any platform, though
    [19:32] <astron247>
    [19:33] <issa> nice
    [19:33] <mirek2_> great :)
    [19:33] <mirek2_> can you give me commit access?
    [19:34] <issa> just one note about the icons
    [19:34] <mirek2_> issa: do you have a github account?
    [19:34] <mirek2_> issa: yes?
    [19:34] <issa> I'm not sure
    [19:34] <issa> out of the icons here I only had to mess with the paths in about three of them
    [19:35] <issa> the rest was chopped from various existing icons
    [19:35] <issa> I think that should make our progress a lot faster
    [19:35] <mirek2_> that's not really a good way to design the icons, though
    [19:36] <issa> why not?
    [19:36] <astron247> mirek2: see private channel
    [19:36] <mirek2_> issa: they're not designed using the same standards
    [19:37] <mirek2_> there might also be licensing problems
    [19:37] <issa> they are Gnome symbolic
    [19:37] <issa> they should all have the same license, no?
    [19:38] <mirek2_> oh, so by 'chopped', you mean they're derivatives of various symbolic icons?
    [19:39] <mirek2_> in that case, that's fine
    [19:40] <issa> yes
    [19:41] <issa> as in combined different symbols from different places (a + paintbrush = text color, printer + magnifier = print preview)
    [19:44] <mirek2> sorry, got signed off
    [19:44] <mirek2> anyway, issa, so... I guess your tasks for the week are to create a git account, ask for commit access, install sparkleshare, contact jimmac and find out the icon design guidelines
    [19:45] <mirek2> put them together to create a guide, and maybe try to commit a first icon
    [19:46] <issa> sure :)
    [19:47] <issa> I should ask astron247 for commit access?
    [19:47] <@medieval> ( tried to make some math icons: old ones: new: )
    [19:47] <astron247> i am not sure how to do it yet
    [19:47] <mirek2> issa: create an account now and just write your username
    [19:47] <mirek2> astron247: it's under settings
    [19:47] <mirek2> on the repo page
    [19:48] <mirek2> in the "collaborators section"
    [19:48] <astron247> i know, but how do i get the Add button to activate?
    [19:48] <mirek2> it works for me
    [19:48] <mirek2> I just added myself :)
    [19:48] <astron247> odd
    [19:48] <Feldo> medieval: the old ones are in PNG or SVG?
    [19:48] <mirek2> astron247: you have to select a user first
    [19:49] <astron247> how do i do that?
    [19:49] <@medieval> Feldo: png
    [19:49] <mirek2> start typing user name, choose from the dropdown list that appears
    [19:50] <astron247> hm... no dropdown...
    [19:50] <mirek2> I'll add you if you'd like
    [19:50] <astron247> better add issa
    [19:51] <mirek2> issa, do you have an account yet?
    [19:51] <issa> yes
    [19:51] <issa> ialkurtass
    [19:51] <issa> (issa is taken :( )
    [19:52] <mirek2> astron247, are you Astron on github?
    [19:52] <issa> added?
    [19:52] <astron247> no, i used my libo email to register
    [19:52] <mirek2> medieval: what font is that?
    [19:52] <mirek2> issa: yes
    [19:52] <@medieval> vegur
    [19:52] <issa> cool, thanks
    [19:53] <Feldo> medieval: maybe it would be better to use another font for math icons?
    [19:53] <astron247> we will have to turn libodesign into an organisation first, before i can be astron, i guess
    [19:54] <mirek2> astron247: that would probably be good to do, though, as in case you stop collaborating, it'd be good not to have the account tied to your e-mail
    [19:54] <astron247> right
    [19:55] <@medieval> (how can i direct talk somebody (the red one) in web?)
    [19:55] <mirek2> click on their name in the right sidebar
    [19:55] <mirek2> then click -query
    [19:55] <issa> medival: just type his name and it will appear read to him :)
    [19:56] <issa> (this will appear red to you medieval)
    [19:56] <@medieval> ok
    [19:56] <issa> medieval: as long as you don't make a typo of course :P
    [19:57] <mirek2> you can also just type the first few letters, then hit tab
    [19:57] <@medieval> overall icon font will be vegur?
    [19:57] <issa> that's nice
    [19:57] <mirek2> medieval: no, there's no set font for the icons
    [19:57] <mirek2> vegur is just LibreOffice's logo name
    [19:58] <issa> that's one problem I had with the icons, it doesn't seem that there is a defined font
    [19:58] <mirek2> icons aren't usually based on fonts
    [19:58] <issa> but I think a font will make them look like they belong together
    [19:58] <mirek2> text shapes are usually drawn to best fit a grid
    [19:59] <issa> oh I see
    [19:59] <mirek2> also, besides the Math icons, we usually only need the letter A
    [19:59] <mirek2> B and C for a few icons (like grammar checking)
    [19:59] <@medieval> (
    [20:00] <issa> and the numbers, at least 1 2 3
    [20:00] <mirek2> yes, for e.g. the numbering icon
    [20:01] <issa> oh and PDF icon too
    [20:01] <mirek2> I wouldn't use text for the PDF icon
    [20:01] <mirek2> it's better to use the Acrobat logo, like we do now
    [20:01] <mirek2> as "PDF" could be hard to read at small sizes
    [20:02] <issa> was that changed in the new set
    [20:02] <issa> I really need to be up to date
    [20:03] <mirek2> I think it was, but I'm not 100% sure
    [20:04] <astron247> yes, it was changed by alex
    [20:04] <mirek2>
    [20:05] <mirek2> (click "plain" to view it)
    [20:05] <issa> oh I see
    [20:06] <issa> so is that all about the icons?
    [20:07] <mirek2> I think so
    [20:07] <issa> because I think I have to leave soon
    [20:07] <mirek2> unless you have something to ask
    [20:07] <issa> yes, did you discuss the color picker or the UI redesigns?
    [20:07] <mirek2> not yet
    [20:07] <astron247> btw: is alex using the right colours for his icons?
    [20:07] <mirek2> what exactly do you mean by UI redesigns?
    [20:08] <issa> redesign proposals
    [20:08] <issa> (or UX if you may)
    [20:08] <mirek2> astron247: not sure
    [20:08] <mirek2> issa: any specific ones?
    [20:08] <issa> no
    [20:09] <issa> I was thinking of designing one
    [20:09] <mirek2> well, any UX redesign proposal serves merely to inspire
    [20:10] <issa> something like this
    [20:10] <mirek2> you mean just changing the position of elements?
    [20:10] <issa> yeah
    [20:10] <issa> and removing some of them
    [20:11] <mirek2> you can always make a proposal and send it to the design list, though you're very likely to run into some opposition
    [20:11] <issa> yeah I expect that
    [20:12] <issa> also this color picker
    [20:13] <issa> (based on one by medieval based on one by you)
    [20:13] <mirek2> as I said last week, I'd like to make a few proposals as well
    [20:14] <mirek2> and I would prefer to discuss all the proposals next week
    [20:14] <mirek2> btw, github seems like a good place to hold our SVG sources
    [20:14] <mirek2> alright if I create a repo for that?
    [20:14] <mirek2> (from the libodesign account)
    [20:16] <astron247> mirek, what svgs do you mean?
    [20:16] <mirek2> e.g. the SVG source for the remote icon
    [20:16] <@medieval> (deos somebody here know some good math font like utopia but clearer licence: it would be good for making new math icons)
    [20:16] <astron247> put that in original artwork please
    [20:17] <astron247> (on fdo, i know you have commit rights)
    [20:17] <mirek2> I don't have commit rights
    [20:17] <mirek2> or at least, I don't think I do
    [20:17] <astron247> really??
    [20:17] <astron247> i think you do
    [20:18] <mirek2> honestly, I'm not even sure if I have an fdo account
    [20:18] <astron247> okay. then, ... can you ready a commit please and do git format-patch and send it to me?
    [20:19] <mirek2> well, I might work on it some more
    [20:19] <astron247> anyway, i have to go. sorry
    [20:20] <@medieval> bye
    [20:20] <mirek2> alright, bye
    [20:20] <mirek2> I'll send you an e-mail
    [20:22] <mirek2> on the topic of the Impress remote icon, what do you think about it?
    [20:22] <mirek2> and would you perhaps like to work on some polishes?
    [20:22] <issa> yes  it would be a great idea to post the SVGs in the repo
    [20:23] <issa> I think you should make it look like a remote and less like a phone
    [20:23] <mirek2> would you like to work on it, maybe?
    [20:23] <mirek2> the SVGs are here, btw:
    [20:23] <issa> I can try
    [20:24] <mirek2> what kind of remote do you have in mind?
    [20:24] <issa> I'm new to Inkscape, very new
    [20:24] <issa> I'll give it a go
    [20:24] <issa> anyway I have to go
    [20:24] <mirek2> oh, ok
    [20:24] <issa> bye
    [20:24] <mirek2> be sure to watch jimmac's icon creation video
    [20:25] <Feldo> issa: bye
    [20:25] <mirek2> bye now :)
    [20:25] <issa> I did :)
    [20:25] <mirek2> I mean the non-symbolic one
    [20:25] <issa> oh ok I will
    [20:25] <issa> bye
    [20:25] <mirek2> see you later :)
    [20:26] <mirek2> any other comments about the icon?
    [20:26] <Feldo> medieval is trying to do something with math icons.
    [20:27] <@medieval> i think the icon is ok when it follows android quidelines
    [20:27] <Feldo> mirek2: Do you know if it's okay to use a GNU GPL font for creating an icon for a Libre-Office theme ?
    [20:28] <Feldo> Since LO uses GNU LGPL 3.
    [20:32] <mirek2> any other topics we should discuss?
    [20:33] <Feldo> Yes.
    [20:33] <Feldo> About adding extension.
    [20:34] <Feldo> There is no system to add them from LO directly, right?
    [20:34] <Feldo> (i only have LO 4.0.0)
    [20:34] <@medieval> there is?
    [20:35] <mirek2> to add them, yes there is, to browse them, no, there isn't
    [20:35] <Feldo> I don't think, but I can still be wrong if it's already in the pipes in a dev version.
    [20:36] <Feldo> mirek2: Maybe it would be useful to see if we can design it and them submit it to dev?
    [20:37] <mirek2> would you like to lead this project?
    [20:37] <@medieval> ?
    [20:37] <mirek2> (I don't have the time or the enthusiasm to lead it)
    [20:38] <Feldo> medieval: where does it come from?
    [20:38] <mirek2> Feldo: if I understand you correctly, you mean add a way to browse extensions within LibreOffice, like what Firefox allows?
    [20:39] <@medieval> Feldo: it's is LO 4 stable
    [20:39] <Feldo> mirek2: yes, exactly.
    [20:39] <mirek2> would you like to lead the project, then?
    [20:39] <@medieval> it is there already
    [20:40] <@medieval> (I don't run dev version, in dev it is not active possibly)
    [20:40] <Feldo> I probaly missed it them.
    [20:40] <Feldo> then*
    [20:40] <mirek2> the dialog currently links to the website
    [20:42] <Feldo> So there is still a need of a built-in extension browser for the Extension Center?
    [20:42] <@medieval> ( i don't even know if it is possible to make it better with 24x24 only)
    [20:42] <Feldo> (it looks good for me)
    [20:43] <@medieval> feldo: yes it is needed for browsing new ones
    [20:43] <Feldo> (also, it's still much better than the current version)
    [20:43] <mirek2> it looks pretty good, though it'd be better if you highlighted the relevant elements
    [20:43] <mirek2> however, integrating this into the dialog itself would take a ton of work and I don't think it's worth it yet
    [20:43] <Feldo> Maybe the same browser should be used to add templates too, then.
    [20:43] <mirek2> (in other words, I think that there are much more important things to work on right now)
    [20:44] <@medieval> yes, like color handling
    [20:44] <mirek2> Feldo: 4.0 introduces a new template manager, and support for browsing templates will come at a later version
    [20:44] <mirek2> yes
    [20:44] <Feldo> mirek2: so maybe later?
    [20:45] <mirek2> sure
    [20:45] <mirek2> it really depends on the developers
    [20:45] <mirek2> if it's a large project, it's unlikely they'll want to do it
    [20:46] <Feldo> If they're already working on the template addition to the browser, I guess they don't have the time for the moment.
    [20:46] <mirek2> it's more complicated than that
    [20:47] <mirek2> in general, features that can't be broken down into bitesized pieces are hard to get done unless they're necessary or part of a GSoC project
    [20:47] <mirek2> or unless someone wants to do it in his free time
    [20:48] <mirek2> any other topics to discuss?
    [20:49] <Feldo> Yes, one last thing.
    [20:50] <mirek2> go ahead
    [20:50] <Feldo> (at least, for me)
    [20:50] <Feldo> ok
    [20:50] <Feldo> It's about tabs.
    [20:50] <mirek2> alright
    [20:51] <Feldo> I discovered Office Tabs recently, and I think it may be nice to add the possibility to use tabs on LO.
    [20:51] <Feldo> I mean
    [20:52] <Feldo> There is the current mode for browsing LO documents.
    [20:52] <Feldo> But we can add (and design) two other ways.
    [20:52] <Feldo> One with tabs and only one type of document per window.
    [20:53] <mirek2> what would be the use case as opposed to traditional window management?
    [20:53] <Feldo> Like only LO Writer documents in one, etc.
    [20:54] <Feldo> The last way is tabs with every Lo document possible in one window.
    [20:54] <Feldo> mirek2: less clicks.
    [20:55] <mirek2> Feldo: that depends on your OS
    [20:55] <Feldo> Also, it become quickly a mess whith some OS or Desktop environnements.
    [20:55] <Feldo> Like, Win7 with Aero.
    [20:55] <Feldo> Or ubuntu with Unity.
    [20:55] <mirek2> in browsers, tabs are used because it's typical for a user to have a large number of websites open (dozens)
    [20:56] <mirek2> Feldo: true, but that's something that Canonical and Microsoft should fix
    [20:56] <mirek2> bad window management isn't our problem
    [20:56] <Feldo> Also, I sometimes need to have a lot of dosucments opened at the same time.
    [20:57] <Feldo> For writing essays, working on statistics, etc.
    [20:57] <Feldo> At the same time.
    [20:58] <Feldo> It would be more for a student and professional use.
    [20:59] <mirek2> I'm still not sold on the idea, mostly because it adds complexity, adds an additional horizontal bar, and it would likely take a lot of work, but you're free to ask on the ux-advise list if anyone would be willing to implement the feature
    [21:00] <mirek2> though you might have better luck with Apache OpenOffice, as they're free to use Symphony's code, and Symphony used tabs (though, oddly, I don't think it allowed multiple windows)
    [21:01] <@medieval> I think we currently don't need tabs
    [21:01] <@medieval> because we don't know exactly where we are going with ui design
    [21:01] <Feldo> What means "UX"?
    [21:01] <mirek2> UX stands for user experience
    [21:02] <Feldo> ok
    [21:02] <mirek2>
    [21:02] <Feldo> I remember having read this:
    [21:02] <mirek2>
    [21:06] <Feldo> Another thing is even without a "compact view" bar of the program opened on a OS, I tend to have more documents and programs opened than space available. With a full HD screen.
    [21:06] <Feldo> ok, i'll read this.
    [21:07] <mirek2> having windows shown as tabs would be somewhat simple, I assume, as that's what Symphony does and what the extension you linked to did
    [21:07] <mirek2> however, it would make it impossible to have documents side-by-side without additional changes
    [21:08] <mirek2> having tabs in addition to windows would be more complex, I presume
    [21:08] <Feldo> Symphony=> IBM Lotus Symphony?
    [21:08] <mirek2> ==
    [21:08] <mirek2> yes
    [21:08] <Feldo> Just to be sure.
    [21:09] <mirek2> if this feature was to be coded, I'd prefer it to be an extension
    [21:09] <Feldo> Not an option?
    [21:09] <mirek2> exactly
    [21:10] <Feldo> I still think it could be done simply at first.
    [21:10] <mirek2> what do you mean by that? the way Symphony did it?
    [21:10] <Feldo> Since we could have side-by-side documents with windows. So less coding.
    [21:11] <Feldo> Can't say, I just discovered this once today.
    [21:12] <mirek2> if you have tabs instead of windows, like Symphony did, you can't have side-by-side documents with windows, as there are no windows anymore
    [21:12] <Feldo> I have to test it before, I think.
    [21:13] <Feldo> mirek2: not even like Chrome/Chromium or Firefox?
    [21:13] <mirek2> ultimately it's up to you
    [21:13] <Feldo> How come?
    [21:13] <mirek2> if you can find a developer who wants to work on this, preferably as an extension
    [21:14] <mirek2> Feldo: I just think it's not worth the additional complexity and developer effort
    [21:16] <@medieval> (Feldo you can allways make mockups)
    [21:16] <Feldo> mirek2: Ok. It could still be added in the main code after, I guess?
    [21:16] <mirek2> after what?
    [21:16] <Feldo> medieval: (where would I post them? the wiki? dA?)
    [21:17] <mirek2> sorry, didn't see medieval's post
    [21:17] <@medieval> wiki
    [21:17] <Feldo> mirek2: After a development assuring a good stability and enough options?
    [21:17] <mirek2> or deviantArt, if you're more comfortable with it
    [21:17] <Feldo> medieval: on my user page, you mean?
    [21:17] <@medieval> yes
    [21:18] <mirek2> if someone codes it and it doesn't cause any problems, it's very likely to get picked up by either LibO or AOO
    [21:18] <Feldo> well, with not. I'll just have to get some free time and gathering references one my user page.
    [21:18] <Feldo> mirek2: ok
    [21:18] <mirek2> if it's an extension, it's guaranteed going to be on the extensions page
    [21:19] <mirek2> any other topics?
    [21:19] <Feldo> Another problem I see is it looks like there are a lot of talk about a huge UI redesign, right?
    [21:19] <mirek2> that talk is coming from outside LibreOffice
    [21:19] <Feldo> So my mockups could only use the current design.
    [21:20] <Feldo> Oh, ok.
    [21:20] <mirek2> it's more likely to be adopted if you use the current design
    [21:20] <Feldo> I see.
    [21:20] <mirek2> but it's not a requirement
    [21:22] <mirek2> any other topics?
    [21:22] <Feldo> Well, I think it doesn't need a huge redesign for adding tabs, so I'll stay with the current UI design for the moment.
    [21:22] <mirek2> ok :)
    [21:22] <Feldo> i'm finished here. no more topic in mind. :)
    [21:22] <@medieval> how can find developer to do something?
    [21:23] <@medieval> or...
    [21:24] <mirek2> you're on your own there
    [21:24] <@medieval> ok
    [21:24] <mirek2> things that there's a consensus on from the design team are usually sent to UX advise and mentioned on the ESC call
    [21:25] <mirek2> but it's still not a guarantee that someone will work on them
    [21:25] <@medieval> ok
    [21:25] <mirek2> could one of you post the log to the wiki?
    [21:25] <@medieval> can't we find some developer who want to work only design team?
    [21:25] <@medieval> I can
    [21:26] <Feldo> ok
    [21:26] <mirek2> great :)
    [21:26] <mirek2> if you'd like to find a developer, you can
    [21:26] <Feldo> (I mean, ok if medieval do it)
    [21:28] <@medieval> (If I have time for that, maybe we can mention it on our G+ page?)
    [21:28] <@medieval> just ask if somebody is willing to work for design team
    [21:28] <mirek2> if you do go looking for one, it should preferably be one who has already worked on LibreOffice as a volunteer, or at least on a FOSS project
    [21:29] <mirek2> medieval: as a volunteer dev?
    [21:29] <mirek2> perhaps it'd be good to have a task for him first
    [21:29] <@medieval> yes
    [21:29] <mirek2> like the color picker
    [21:29] <@medieval> color handler
    [21:30] <mirek2> we'll do the call for proposals this week
    [21:31] <@medieval> ok
    [21:32] <mirek2> I think that's it for today
    [21:32] <@medieval> ok
    [21:32] <@medieval> bye
    [21:32] <Feldo> ok
    [21:33] <Feldo> Good bye.
    [21:33] <@medieval> I am trying to make some math icons
    [21:33] <mirek2> see you later