Design/Meetings/2013-03-09
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Attendees
- astron
- colonelqubit
- Feldo
- issa
- medieval
- mirek2
Topics
- Flat icons
- Color picker
- Infobar
- HIG
- Options
- freedesktop.org icon naming
Log
[16:04] == mirek2 [4e66c274@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.102.194.116] has joined #libreoffice-design [16:08] == issa [256913e5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.37.105.19.229] has joined #libreoffice-design [16:08] <issa> hello [16:08] <mirek2> hi issa [16:08] <issa> hi mirek [16:10] <mirek2> let's wait until :10 if someone shows up [16:11] <issa> sure [16:11] <mirek2> alright, let's start [16:11] <mirek2> anything you'd like to talk about? [16:11] == Feldo [56440636@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.68.6.54] has joined #libreoffice-design [16:11] <issa> yes the pdf icon [16:11] <mirek2> alright [16:11] <Feldo> Hello. [16:11] <issa> hello feldo [16:12] <Feldo> Did I miss anything? [16:12] <issa> not yet [16:15] <issa> https://raw.github.com/libodesign/flat-icons/master/context.png [16:15] <issa> I used the triangle next to the print icons [16:16] <mirek2> the triangle doesn't feel clear enough [16:16] <mirek2> (I wouldn't recognize it) [16:16] <mirek2> there should really be a page around it [16:16] <issa> ok [16:16] <issa> (there isn't a page around either tango icons, just a square) [16:17] <mirek2> a square will do [16:17] <issa> ok, although a transparent square might look weird [16:18] <mirek2> try what it looks like :) [16:18] <mirek2> or feel free to experiment [16:18] <mirek2> it's really your project [16:18] <mirek2> I'm just giving my feedback [16:19] <issa> the red should make it more recognizable once we have a colored set [16:19] <issa> next metaphors [16:20] <mirek2> ok [16:20] <issa> the drawing toolbar icon isn't clear in neither tango nor tango testing [16:20] <issa> (the one that shows the drawing toolbar) [16:20] <mirek2> I really like the metaphor you used [16:21] <issa> thanks, credits go to Ahmed (a coworker and a fellow libo dev) [16:21] <issa> *Ahmad [16:22] <mirek2> he did a great job :) [16:22] <issa> I made the icon but he suggested the metaphor :) [16:22] <issa> also the text direction icon beneath it [16:23] <mirek2> as in ltr vs ltr? [16:23] <issa> ltr vs rtl, yes [16:23] <mirek2> perhaps the one for rtl should read "ba" instead of "ab" [16:24] <issa> that's not how it works, it only reorders words [16:25] <issa> the current tango icon is a pen with the arrow, but it's very unclear [16:25] <mirek2> ok [16:25] <mirek2> I've never used it myself [16:26] <mirek2> so I can't comment on it, really [16:26] <issa> I assumed so, but I will check with people around me who use it [16:27] <issa> next the colors icons [16:28] <mirek2> I would say that the brush is unnecessary [16:28] <mirek2> as the color part is indicated by the color preview rectangle [16:28] <issa> true, although it's a bit prettier this way [16:28] <mirek2> I prefer it simple [16:29] <issa> (on a side note I think there is a bug and the color doesn't appear sometimes) [16:29] <mirek2> hm, that's strange [16:29] <issa> technically it would work better especially with the smaller 16x16 size [16:30] <issa> if we remove the brush would it be better to use a highlighter for the highlight icon? [16:30] <mirek2> I like the a in the rectangle [16:30] <mirek2> but it's all up to you, really [16:31] <mirek2> whatever you think looks best [16:31] <issa> me too, but it's not the same as tango metaphor [16:31] <mirek2> that's okay [16:31] <mirek2> we can change the tango metaphor [16:32] <issa> if we use a highlighter, would it be better to use the a in the rectangle for the background [16:32] <issa> because nothing really represents the background well [16:32] <mirek2> (the Tango testing pack is still a work in progress) [16:32] <mirek2> issa: I like the rectangle [16:32] <mirek2> so, sure, it's alright to use it [16:33] <issa> I'll try both and see [16:33] <issa> ok final flat icons related topic; colors [16:33] <mirek2> ok [16:33] <issa> what color should we use for the icons, both monochrome and (later on) colored [16:34] <mirek2> it's up to you :) [16:34] <mirek2> one of the Tango grays, maybe? [16:34] <issa> I'm torn between using libo's palette or tango's [16:35] <mirek2> use Tango's, as that's the one we use now for icons [16:35] <issa> the problem with libo's palette is that it doesn't have reds, so we can't stick with it exclusively [16:35] <mirek2> LibO's palette is for marketing only right now [16:35] <issa> ok [16:39] <mirek2> one thing that bugs me with the icons right now is the inconsitent line widths [16:39] <issa> any icons in particular? [16:40] <mirek2> compare the undo/redo icons to table, link, or align [16:40] <issa> the horizontal lines are the same [16:41] <mirek2> the undo/redo icons seem much thinner, though [16:42] <issa> maybe it's because they are disabled? [16:44] <mirek2> I don't think it's that [16:44] <issa> http://i.imgur.com/6kGyS3d.png [16:45] <mirek2> I think it might be due to the grid alignment [16:46] <mirek2> the link and align icons aren't aligned to a pixel grid [16:46] <mirek2> how do you resize the icons? [16:47] <mirek2> what ratio, I mean? [16:47] <issa> one is 16x16 the other is 24x24 [16:47] <issa> I simply type in the size [16:48] == medieval [c1280ada@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.40.10.218] has joined #libreoffice-design [16:48] <medieval> hi all [16:48] <mirek2> hi medieval [16:48] <mirek2> issa: could you please use 22x22 instead of 24x24 [16:48] <issa> hello medieval [16:48] <issa> this is the size we're currently using? [16:48] <mirek2> that will make it more likely to match a pixel grid [16:49] <mirek2> issa: I think we're using 22x22 with a 1px border [16:49] <mirek2> padding, I mean [16:49] <issa> oh that makes sense [16:49] <mirek2> not 100% sure, though [16:50] <issa> the icons did appear weirdly large the first time I tried them [16:50] <issa> I'll check the other icons [16:50] <medieval> (can somebody upload a previous text to me?) [16:50] <mirek2> sure, I will [16:51] <Feldo> Hi medieval. [16:52] <mirek2> http://piratepad.net/iiI9upGBbK [16:54] <mirek2> also, the table icon seems a bit too tall [16:54] <mirek2> the full height should mostly be used only for complex, multi-item icons [16:55] <mirek2> single symbol icons should use less of the height [16:55] <mirek2> so that they don't stand out so much [16:55] <issa> I can remove the double line beneath the first cell [16:56] <mirek2> perhaps remove a whole row of cells [16:56] <issa> or even remove thebottom row [16:56] <issa> yeah [16:57] <mirek2> the show hidden items symbol is a bit too big as well [16:58] <mirek2> also, it'd be great if you could align the icons to a pixel grid [16:58] <mirek2> (very important for the way the icons are displayed) [16:58] <issa> show hidden items? [16:58] <issa> they are mostly aligned [16:59] <issa> only free form shapes aren't since they don't use straight lines [16:59] <mirek2> the align icons don't seem aligned [16:59] <mirek2> show hidden items = the paragraph symbol [16:59] <issa> they should be [17:00] <mirek2> they appear fuzzy in the screen you sent https://raw.github.com/libodesign/flat-icons/master/context.png [17:00] <issa> check the svg if you can [17:00] <mirek2> perhaps it's fixed now [17:00] <mirek2> I'll check it [17:00] <issa> yeah that's probably because of the size [17:03] <mirek2> the originals seem aligned to grid, but the large icons don't seem to be [17:03] <issa> because the are merely clones [17:03] <issa> resized clones [17:04] <mirek2> the larger icons should really be adjusted for their size [17:04] <mirek2> so it'd be better not to use clones [17:04] <mirek2> it's common practice to adjust icons for each size variant [17:04] <issa> ok [17:05] <issa> so what line widths shall I use? [17:06] <issa> in 16x16 it's mostly 2 pixels [17:06] <mirek2> right, so with 22x22, it should be mostly 3 pixels [17:07] <issa> but I should avoid using half pixels no? [17:07] <mirek2> yes [17:07] <mirek2> make sure the important elements are thicker [17:07] <issa> that'll complicate stuff a bit [17:07] <mirek2> yes [17:08] <issa> I think 2px with more detailed icons would be better [17:08] <issa> for example 4 lines for the alignment icons rather than 3 [17:08] <mirek2> it's up to you [17:08] <mirek2> it will mean more work, but the end result will likely be better [17:09] <issa> true [17:09] <mirek2> (more work as in you won't be able to just resize icons anymore) [17:09] <mirek2> and will have to adjust the existing icons for this new style [17:09] <issa> it's alright [17:09] <mirek2> alright :) [17:10] <issa> so these are the most suitable tango colors http://i.imgur.com/PMqKIxw.png [17:11] <mirek2> looks good [17:11] <mirek2> though it's hard to tell now [17:11] <mirek2> without using it [17:11] <issa> I'm guessing the darker colors are more suitable [17:11] <mirek2> yes [17:11] <mirek2> I think so [17:12] <mirek2> what about SparkleShare? [17:12] <issa> what about it? [17:12] <mirek2> have you been able to get it running? [17:12] <issa> yes, I've been using it to update the icons [17:13] <mirek2> ok, great [17:13] <issa> I haven't uploaded the pngs because I don't think it's useful [17:13] <mirek2> sure [17:14] <issa> one more question regarding the icons, what to do with the numbered bullets? [17:14] == astron [5f71d283@gateway/web/freenode/ip.95.113.210.131] has joined #libreoffice-design [17:15] <issa> the numbers are too small to be seen, but moving the lines will ruin consistency with the alignment icons [17:15] <mirek2> our current icon skips every other line [17:16] <mirek2> (4 lines with bullets, 2 lines with numbering) [17:16] <mirek2> the lines are aligned, so consistency is maintained [17:16] <mirek2> or you could try 3 lines for each [17:16] <mirek2> if that would make it fit [17:16] <issa> and make the numbers 3 or 4 pixels high? [17:17] <mirek2> sure [17:17] <mirek2> it's really all up to you [17:17] <mirek2> make some designs, go for whatever feels better [17:17] <issa> I know that everything is up to me :P [17:17] <mirek2> (or check on the mailing list if you're not sure) [17:17] <mirek2> :) [17:18] <mirek2> I really can't tell you what to do without seeing the icons [17:18] <mirek2> you often have to go by intuition there [17:19] <issa> the png preview is full size [17:19] <astron> hi all... [17:19] <issa> https://raw.github.com/libodesign/flat-icons/master/stencils.png [17:19] <issa> hi astron [17:19] <mirek2> hey astron [17:19] <medieval> hi astron [17:20] <mirek2> issa: I don't really like the way it's in the PNG [17:20] <issa> how would you put it? [17:20] <mirek2> would it be possible to have 3 lines in the numbering icon as well? [17:21] <issa> I guess? that would make the numbers clearer but it would be harder to tell them apart in one glance [17:22] <mirek2> in the 22x22 icon, not necessarily in the 16x16 one [17:23] <issa> I'll try and see [17:23] <mirek2> ok, great :) [17:23] <mirek2> astron, could you update us on the ESC call? [17:24] <astron> no. sorry [17:24] <astron> i skipped ir [17:25] <astron> t [17:25] <mirek2> alright [17:25] <astron> sorry, i will attend next week. skipping was not such a great decision, i guess. [17:25] <mirek2> that's alright, I'm not sure we had much to share anyway [17:26] <astron> fwiw, i was told we could be more active on ux-advise, though [17:26] <mirek2> ok [17:26] <astron> i guess i should be a (bigger) part of we... but i dont really have the nerve currently [17:27] <issa> is ux-advise only usability or anything ui related? [17:27] <astron> mostlyfor usability questions coming from hackers [17:27] <mirek2> well, it's basically for interaction between UXers and developers [17:28] <mirek2> the topics should be relevant to both sides, but can include anything that falls under UX [17:28] <astron> right. [17:28] <mirek2> so, yes, anything UI-related [17:29] <astron> btw, there was a request for an icon recently... from lionel. [17:29] <astron> ill find the mail [17:29] <issa> i see [17:30] <astron> http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Libreoffice-ux-advise-icon-for-toolbar-needed-td4041595.html [17:30] <astron> i have yet to find the appropriate thread on the dev list, so i can see what this is actually about (lionel doesnt mention it) [17:30] <mirek2> right [17:31] <mirek2> http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.comp.documentfoundation.libreoffice.ux-advise [17:32] <mirek2> that's the only place where the quote appears, according to google [17:32] <mirek2> so I'm not sure if it's from a public mailing list [17:32] <mirek2> (I googled "It can be done very easy. Only problem is that, new icon is needed, which") [17:33] <mirek2> could you write Lionel and ask him what he's asking for? [17:34] <astron> i will, yes. [17:34] <mirek2> thanks [17:35] <astron> however, issa, even if he needs a tango icon, could you maybe do it? [17:35] <astron> (since the impress remote icon i cant but trust you :) ) [17:37] <issa> astron thanks, I'll try :) [17:37] <astron> okay, great. [17:37] <issa> but I still didn't understand what the icon is about [17:37] <issa> should I contact him? [17:37] <astron> no, thats fine, i can do that... [17:38] <issa> (also technically the impress remote is a derivative of mirek's work) [17:38] <astron> but its probably something database-related [17:38] <issa> sure, just cc me [17:38] <astron> sure–we can do derivatives of each others work again, of course ;) [17:40] <mirek2> if I can move onto another topic: [17:40] <astron> sure [17:40] <mirek2> there are a lot of projects that we sort of abandoned [17:41] <mirek2> a few weeks back we agreed to change the scope of the color picker [17:41] <mirek2> to be document-color oriented [17:41] <mirek2> color theme oriented, sorry [17:42] <mirek2> let's have the proposal week this coming week, the tentative design next week [17:42] <astron> what was the developers reaction there, btw? [17:42] <mirek2> basically, it would be possible to have color themes, but nobody is working on them [17:43] <astron> right, just like the color picker [17:43] <mirek2> oh, and we don't have to worry about whether it's in the ODF spec [17:43] <astron> ..? [17:43] <mirek2> yup [17:44] <issa> medieval and I already made ones [17:44] <mirek2> where are they? [17:45] <issa> just a second [17:46] <medieval> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/anhuju4pi2ozebu/5loAr1R-LP [17:46] <issa> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:I_colorpicker.png [17:47] <mirek2> cool [17:47] <issa> (I'd like to change some little details though) [17:47] <mirek2> I've made one as well [17:48] <mirek2> http://ubuntuone.com/6LRShdI4vUMdwiJaYMKbtP [17:48] <issa> show us [17:48] <mirek2> btw, it'd be really good to have touch support with everything new we develop [17:49] <mirek2> touch in mind, though not touch-first [17:50] <astron> mirek, yours doesnt open for me [17:51] <medieval> (ubuntuone isn't very stable) [17:51] <mirek2> right [17:51] <medieval> (try again, for me it opened) [17:52] <issa> it's a bit too.. unorthodox [17:52] <mirek2> should I upload it elsewhere? [17:52] <medieval> no [17:52] <issa> (it opened for me) [17:52] <mirek2> issa: what would you change? [17:53] <issa> check mine [17:53] <medieval> Should we have popover or dialog for custom color? [17:53] <issa> medieval: I say dialog [17:54] <mirek2> I would keep it in the popover, for easy access [17:54] <mirek2> (not that important in Writer, but key in Draw) [17:54] <medieval> or is it easy to implement? [17:55] <issa> I don't think saw, draw is more about diagrams rather than detailed drawings [17:55] <mirek2> it's probably as easy to implement as it would be in a dialog [17:55] <issa> *I don't think so [17:55] <medieval> mirek2 ok [17:55] <mirek2> issa: Draw doesn't really have a defined purpose [17:56] <mirek2> the reason why people don't use it to do detailed drawings is because the UI for it sucks [17:56] <mirek2> a part of that is not being to use custom colors easily [17:57] <issa> mirek2: given that it's in an office suite makes me think it isn't for "art" [17:58] <issa> anyway as long as the default popover looks the same it's fine by my [17:58] <issa> *me [17:58] <mirek2> looks the same? [17:58] <mirek2> as what? [17:58] <astron> why would we want to forbid people to make art with libreoffice? [17:58] <astron> also, what good is draw at anything these days? [17:59] <issa> mirek2: as in it only appears when you click the bottom of the panel [17:59] <issa> astron: true [17:59] <mirek2> issa: yes, as in the mockup [18:00] <issa> yes [18:00] <astron> you could try to bring it closer to visio (technical drawings) or to corel draw/freehand/illustrator (art) – but currently i see neither direction realized there [18:00] <mirek2> right [18:01] <issa> I'd assume visio is the goal [18:01] <astron> (the only cool features are measurements and connectors, that indicate the visio direction) [18:01] <mirek2> issa: Draw really doesn't have a direction [18:02] <mirek2> it can import PDF's, Publisher files, Visio files, SVG's [18:02] <mirek2> perhaps it would be best to split it in 2 someday [18:02] <astron> one of the things about draw is that it hasnt even seen much development, since libreoffice started and even in the past few years at ooo... [18:02] <mirek2> but I doubt anyone would be willing to maintain it [18:02] <mirek2> astron: right, nobody cares about it much [18:03] <mirek2> but it's easy to keep, as it shares a lot of code with Impress [18:03] <issa> I've always used powerpoint whenever I needed visio [18:03] <astron> and even impress is under-maintained [18:03] <mirek2> yes [18:04] <issa> so back to the mockups, I think explaining the reasonings for everything is important [18:05] <astron> the only things that are maintained well currently are writer and calc, and to a degree, base. but base has a long way to go, apparently to catch up with access. [18:05] <issa> but I'm not sure if it's better to do here or in the wiki [18:06] == Feldo [56440636@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.68.6.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] [18:06] <mirek2> alright, so let's have proposal week this week and change the scope, removing document colors and palettes and adding in theme colors [18:07] <medieval> ok [18:07] <mirek2> anyone can put reasoning in the "Description" section of their proposal, we'll discuss the proposals next week [18:07] <mirek2> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Color_Picker [18:07] <mirek2> on this wiki page [18:07] <mirek2> I'll remove the current tentative design [18:08] <issa> cool [18:08] <mirek2> great :) [18:09] <mirek2> another abandonned project: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Infobar [18:10] <astron> well, we have them now, i think [18:10] <astron> ? [18:10] <astron> they just arent put to use [18:10] <mirek2> you mean the descriptions? [18:10] <mirek2> the infobars? [18:11] <mirek2> is it alright if I promote my guidelines to official status? [18:11] <astron> yes [18:11] <mirek2> great [18:12] <mirek2> also, I assume T-shirts 2013 is no longer relevant? [18:12] <astron> sorry. i meant we have infobars now [18:12] <astron> not that i fully agree with your guidelines (i hadnt read them) [18:12] <mirek2> ok [18:12] <mirek2> please, everyone, read them [18:13] <mirek2> it'd be good to have consistent use of the infobars [18:14] <astron> basically, i think i am in agreement... [18:15] <issa> me too, I never thought of it but it seems extremely useful [18:15] <mirek2> ok, good [18:15] <mirek2> alright if I promote it to official status, then? [18:15] <astron> but i would like to use them for showing progress as well [18:15] <issa> should add enabling complex text languages based on system/document [18:16] <mirek2> astron: is that what the status bar is for? [18:16] <mirek2> issa: what do you mean? [18:16] <mirek2> the guidelines were modeled after Chrome's guidelines, btw [18:17] <astron> oh, can you link to those? [18:17] <mirek2> they're linked to under Relevant art, I think [18:17] <issa> mirek2: if you want to use any rtl languages (e.g. Arabic) or complex language (e.g. Chinese) you have to enable a checkbox in the settings [18:17] <mirek2> http://dev.chromium.org/user-experience/infobars [18:18] <issa> mirek2: many Arabic users we came across complained because they couldn't figure out how to enable Arabic [18:19] <astron> mirek, we might not forever have a status bar and the info bars make it more visible (without being annoying) [18:19] <mirek2> issa: is it disabled on an install of an Arabic LibreOffice version? [18:19] <issa> mirek2: it was, I'm not sure about now [18:19] <astron> mirek: no, but many arabic users use us-en as their os locale [18:19] <astron> should be en-us [18:19] <issa> yes that's very true [18:19] <mirek2> I don't see how the infobar would be used in this case [18:20] <mirek2> should everyone's LibreOffice ask if they want to enable complex language support? [18:20] <issa> "This document contains Arabic text, would you like to enable CTL to be able to use Arabic as an input language?" [18:20] <astron> right, how would you detect whether to display it? when reading arabic? [18:20] <mirek2> issa: sounds good [18:20] <issa> or if possible it should check the system's keyboard input languages [18:20] <mirek2> that would fall under what the guidelines say, though, so there's no need to edit the guidelines for that [18:21] <issa> yes, but maybe add it somewhere so that we don't forget it :) [18:21] <mirek2> ok, I'll add it under valid applications [18:22] <astron> maybe we could collect a number fo examples? [18:22] <mirek2> I think the examples we have are find [18:22] <astron> (a larger number) [18:22] <mirek2> fine [18:23] <astron> ie very practical, concrete examples [18:23] <mirek2> if a developer is reading the spec, he shouldn't have to wade through a long list of possible uses [18:23] <mirek2> but if there's one or two important examples that you would add, sure [18:23] <issa> add a new section for all potential uses? [18:23] <astron> issa: thats what i meant [18:24] <issa> astron: yes, I'm telling mirek2 [18:25] <mirek2> if you'd like [18:25] <mirek2> I don't think it's necessary, though [18:25] <mirek2> and I would prefer to keep the guidelines short [18:25] <mirek2> so that developers would feel inclined to read them :) [18:25] <issa> that's why I'm saying put it in another section (or even page) [18:26] <mirek2> isn't that unnecessarily complicated? [18:26] <astron> it helps us not to forget things that could be changed [18:26] <mirek2> doesn't the developer really only need a few examples to know where to use the infobars? [18:27] <mirek2> astron: I think bug reports are better for that [18:27] <mirek2> (as in, if an infobar is needed, submit a bug) [18:27] <astron> ok [18:27] <issa> fair enough [18:28] <mirek2> astron: what use case do you see for progress indication? [18:28] <astron> seeing if i should run to the printer yet..? [18:29] <mirek2> if you dismiss it, where would it appear? [18:29] <astron> of course, the saving indicator would be less important, if you could still use libo while it saves something [18:30] <mirek2> I would find it very annoying if I had to close the infobar every time I saved a document [18:30] <issa> since it is inspired by browsers I think status shouldn't be there [18:31] <astron> hm, no, it would close automatically then, after its doen saving/printing, much like the status bar currently returns to its usual appearance when either of these actions is finished [18:31] == Feldo [56440636@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.68.6.54] has joined #libreoffice-design [18:32] <mirek2_> sure, but the infobar would bother me and I would want to close it [18:32] <Feldo> Is it normal I didn't see any new message for about half an hour? [18:32] <issa> for example when I'm working on an important document I save every few seconds [18:32] <mirek2_> that sometimes happens on IRC [18:32] <astron> feldo: no, you were disconnetced [18:33] <astron> (at least that was shown to us) [18:33] <mirek2_> http://piratepad.net/iiI9upGBbK [18:34] <Feldo> ok [18:34] <mirek2_> (even Ubuntu's notifications bother me, actually) [18:34] == mirek2 [4e66c274@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.102.194.116] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] [18:34] <issa> (mirek2_: yes those are quite terrible) [18:35] <mirek2_> also, it doesn't look like we're getting rid of the status bar anytime soon, so I would just keep the functionality there [18:35] <issa> I totally agree [18:36] <mirek2_> once we do lose it, we can brainstorm on how to replace it [18:36] <astron> ok, then [18:37] <mirek2_> so, alright if I make the guidelines official? [18:37] <issa> I'd say yes [18:37] <mirek2_> if yes, then we should start a place for the guidelines? [18:37] <mirek2_> a new HIG page? [18:38] <Feldo> Sorry guys, I have to go. I forgot to do something so I can't stay to ask questions at the end of the meeting. [18:38] <mirek2_> alright [18:38] <Feldo> Goodbye everyone. [18:39] <mirek2_> if you have questions, post them on the mailing list [18:39] <mirek2_> bye [18:39] <issa> bye [18:39] <mirek2_> ok if I create a HIG page? [18:39] <Feldo> mirek2: okay [18:39] == Feldo [56440636@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.68.6.54] has quit [Quit: Page closed] [18:39] <issa> mirek2_: why wouldn't the new version announcement be there? doesn't browsers do that? [18:39] <issa> what's a HIG? [18:40] <mirek2_> issa: actually, browsers usually keep the new version quiet [18:40] <astron> human interface guidelines [18:40] <mirek2_> you often don't notice an update [18:40] <issa> oh ok [18:40] <mirek2_> here's Android's hig: http://developer.android.com/guide/practices/ui_guidelines/index.html [18:41] <mirek2_> sorry, whoops, here it is: http://developer.android.com/design/index.html [18:41] <astron> mirek, do we have anything with the semblance of a hig [18:41] <mirek2_> here's elementary's: http://elementaryos.org/docs/human-interface-guidelines [18:42] <mirek2_> astron: no, but we should start collecting guidelines [18:42] <mirek2_> for situations where the platform's guidelines either don't mention something or when they can't be followed [18:43] <astron> ok [18:43] <mirek2_> so should I add a HIG page, initially with just the infobar? [18:44] <astron> we could reference gnomes hig as a fallback [18:45] <astron> (gnome 2, that is, since gnome 3's is still not very stable) [18:45] <mirek2_> sure, sounds good [18:45] <mirek2_> is gnome 3's public yet [18:45] <mirek2_> ? [18:45] <astron> there is a draft somewhere... [18:46] <astron> but in many cases it also falls back to the old hig [18:47] <astron> https://live.gnome.org/UsabilityProject/HIG3 [18:47] <mirek2_> yes [18:47] <mirek2_> or perhaps we could use elementary's HIG? [18:48] <astron> really? [18:48] <mirek2_> given that Gnome 2's HIG was designed a very long time ago [18:48] <mirek2_> astron: why not? [18:49] <mirek2_> http://elementaryos.org/docs/human-interface-guidelines [18:51] <astron> well, for one there a re several sections that dont apply to libo at all (dock usage, etc) – we can ignore those. and also, something like http://elementaryos.org/docs/human-interface-guidelines/text/writing-style seems wildly inappropriate [18:52] <mirek2_> the sections under "Desktop integration" should be taken for what they are: desktop integration with Elementary [18:53] <mirek2_> how is writing style inappropriate? all of the principles seem right to me [18:53] <mirek2_> what do you disagree with? [18:54] <astron> things like recommendation the wording "get some friends" make me a bit wary of what the elementary people do elsewhere [18:54] <astron> (i find this wording a bit offensive) [18:54] <mirek2_> I don't really agree with "Get some friends" either, but the actual principles seem solid [18:55] <astron> right [18:56] <astron> also, apparently it isnt entirely finsihed either, and also falls back to gnome's hig [18:57] <mirek2_> I think it's almost finished if not finished [18:58] == astron has changed nick to astron_afk [18:58] <mirek2_> given that it's more readable and more modern (i.e. suitable for modern UIs), I think it fits the bill better [18:59] <astron_afk> still, i think there would be some acceptance problems (gnome still being the bigger platform and elementary being irrelevant outside of the ubuntu sphere) [19:00] <astron_afk> also, it does not seem to cater to touch user either, so its not that much more modern [19:00] <mirek2_> elementary's guidelines build on Gnome's [19:00] <mirek2_> astron_afk: sure, but it's still better than Gnome 2's guidelines [19:01] <mirek2_> it's also misleading to call gnome the "bigger platform" [19:02] <issa> is it? [19:02] <mirek2_> given that there's a range of Linux desktop UIs now and only Mate is truly Gnome 2 [19:03] <mirek2_> (and Gnome 3 is not at all like Gnome 2 -- actually, Pantheon is more like Gnome 2 than Gnome 3 is) [19:05] <mirek2_> while astron is afk, I'll bring up another topic [19:05] <mirek2_> would anyone like to revive the Options cleanup project? [19:06] <mirek2_> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Analyses/Global_Options [19:07] <mirek2_> we need to: [19:07] <mirek2_> - compare the stuff we have to the current dialog [19:07] <mirek2_> - start work on the dialog options specific to each module [19:09] <issa> not really, my hands are quite full [19:09] <mirek2_> alright [19:09] <issa> (and to be honest it doesn't seem interesting) [19:09] <mirek2_> true [19:10] <mirek2_> but it would solve some big problems [19:10] <mirek2_> like the complex language problem you mentioned earlier [19:10] <mirek2_> right now, it's hard to find any setting in the dialog [19:11] <mirek2_> medieval, what about you? [19:11] <medieval> I have quit limited time this (probably next week) [19:11] <mirek2_> ok [19:12] <medieval> what to you want to be done with it? [19:13] <mirek2_> basically, first we analyze whether the option is necessary, whether it's just a power user setting, or whether it can be done away with altogether [19:13] <issa> I might know one or two guys who might be interested, although they aren't designers [19:13] <mirek2_> if it's a power user setting, we move it to a new "Advanced options" dialog [19:13] <mirek2_> issa: that'd be great [19:13] <mirek2_> they don't need to be designers [19:14] <mirek2_> actually, it's very menial work [19:14] <issa> good, I'll check with them tomorrow [19:14] <mirek2_> the core of the work is listing the options, like on https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Analyses/Global_Options [19:14] <medieval> mirek: I thought it have be done? [19:14] <mirek2_> only for Global options [19:15] <mirek2_> and given that the options were listed based on the help page, there are probably some options missing [19:15] <mirek2_> that's also something that needs to be done -- comparing that page with the current global options [19:17] <medieval> (i am thinking about it but now i am going to buy some food, takes some time) [19:23] <mirek2_> ok, go ahead [19:32] <mirek2_> astron_afk: when you get back, please tell us [19:35] <medieval> i am back [19:35] <issa> welcome back [19:35] <mirek2_> great [19:36] <mirek2_> we've been talking with issa about icons privately [19:36] <mirek2_> here's the jist: [19:36] <mirek2_> it'd be good to follow the fd.o spec [19:36] <mirek2_> there's been talk about it a while ago, but nothing came of it: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/Icon_Themes [19:37] <mirek2_> additionally, it might interfere with development [19:37] <mirek2_> the fd.o spec is on http://standards.freedesktop.org/icon-naming-spec/icon-naming-spec-latest.html [19:39] <mirek2_> also, alex wrote on a semi-private mailing list: "I need to sort out some rather big issues before I can think of participating in the project again. I hope that doesn't affect the workflow too much and I wish you good luck with the next release." [19:39] <issa> I wouldn't mind working on it but I really don't want to halt designing the icons [19:40] <mirek2_> so we can't count on him working on the Tango testing icons anytime soon [19:40] <issa> (working on the naimng I mean) [19:40] <issa> *naming [19:41] <mirek2_> fd.o naming isn't something we have to have, but it'd be nice to have [19:42] <mirek2_> I don't think we'll find anyone to do it, though, as it's that sort of boring thankless menial job that nobody really wants to do :) [19:42] <issa> heh, true [19:43] <mirek2_> anything else to discuss? [19:44] <issa> I was wondering if we should delay the meeting between 30 minutes and an hour [19:44] <issa> since most people come late, or would they come even later? [19:45] <medieval> i have something [19:45] <mirek2_> I think they would come even later [19:45] <mirek2_> but sure, we could ask if we should postpone the meeting [19:45] <mirek2_> would you like to send out a maling list thread about that? [19:46] <mirek2_> originally, we used a doodle poll, and this came to be the most fitting time [19:46] <mirek2_> medieval: go ahead [19:46] <medieval> Design/Analyses/Global Options [19:46] <mirek2_> yes? [19:46] <issa> (the current time is more suitable for me actually) [19:46] <mirek2_> me too [19:46] <medieval> you me it is missing: writer [19:47] <mirek2_> that's not a global option [19:47] <mirek2_> that's a module-specific option [19:47] <mirek2_> module-specific options should be listed on separate pages [19:47] <medieval> ok [19:47] <mirek2_> which is the job that needs to be done that I was talking about [19:47] <medieval> ok [19:48] <medieval> if i have time i am looking to it [19:48] <mirek2_> awesome :) [19:48] <issa> great [19:49] <mirek2_> anything else? [19:49] <issa> nothing I can think of [19:50] <medieval> not from me [19:50] <mirek2_> ok, let's end the meeting then [19:50] <mirek2_> I'll post the log [19:50] <medieval> ok [19:50] <issa> thank you, that was one long meeting [19:51] <mirek2_> :) they usually drag out this long, sometimes longer [19:51] <medieval> bye, back to make my Coursework [19:51] <mirek2_> bye