Design/Meetings/2013-03-09

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Attendees

• astron
• colonelqubit
• Feldo
• issa
• medieval
• mirek2

Topics

• Flat icons
• Color picker
• Infobar
• HIG
• Options
• freedesktop.org icon naming

Log

[16:04] == mirek2 [4e66c274@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.102.194.116] has joined #libreoffice-design
[16:08] == issa [256913e5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.37.105.19.229] has joined #libreoffice-design
[16:08] <issa> hello
[16:08] <mirek2> hi issa
[16:08] <issa> hi mirek
[16:10] <mirek2> let's wait until :10 if someone shows up
[16:11] <issa> sure
[16:11] <mirek2> alright, let's start
[16:11] <mirek2> anything you'd like to talk about?
[16:11] == Feldo [56440636@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.68.6.54] has joined #libreoffice-design
[16:11] <issa> yes the pdf icon
[16:11] <mirek2> alright
[16:11] <Feldo> Hello.
[16:11] <issa> hello feldo
[16:12] <Feldo> Did I miss anything?
[16:12] <issa> not yet
[16:15] <issa> https://raw.github.com/libodesign/flat-icons/master/context.png
[16:15] <issa> I used the triangle next to the print icons
[16:16] <mirek2> the triangle doesn't feel clear enough
[16:16] <mirek2> (I wouldn't recognize it)
[16:16] <mirek2> there should really be a page around it
[16:16] <issa> ok
[16:16] <issa> (there isn't a page around either tango icons, just a square)
[16:17] <mirek2> a square will do
[16:17] <issa> ok, although a transparent square might look weird
[16:18] <mirek2> try what it looks like :)
[16:18] <mirek2> or feel free to experiment
[16:18] <mirek2> it's really your project
[16:18] <mirek2> I'm just giving my feedback
[16:19] <issa> the red should make it more recognizable once we have a colored set
[16:19] <issa> next metaphors
[16:20] <mirek2> ok
[16:20] <issa> the drawing toolbar icon isn't clear in neither tango nor tango testing
[16:20] <issa> (the one that shows the drawing toolbar)
[16:20] <mirek2> I really like the metaphor you used
[16:21] <issa> thanks, credits go to Ahmed (a coworker and a fellow libo dev)
[16:21] <issa> *Ahmad
[16:22] <mirek2> he did a great job :)
[16:22] <issa> I made the icon but he suggested the metaphor :)
[16:22] <issa> also the text direction icon beneath it
[16:23] <mirek2> as in ltr vs ltr?
[16:23] <issa> ltr vs rtl, yes
[16:23] <mirek2> perhaps the one for rtl should read "ba" instead of "ab"
[16:24] <issa> that's not how it works, it only reorders words
[16:25] <issa> the current tango icon is a pen with the arrow, but it's very unclear
[16:25] <mirek2> ok
[16:25] <mirek2> I've never used it myself
[16:26] <mirek2> so I can't comment on it, really
[16:26] <issa> I assumed so, but I will check with people around me who use it
[16:27] <issa> next the colors icons
[16:28] <mirek2> I would say that the brush is unnecessary
[16:28] <mirek2> as the color part is indicated by the color preview rectangle
[16:28] <issa> true, although it's a bit prettier this way
[16:28] <mirek2> I prefer it simple
[16:29] <issa> (on a side note I think there is a bug and the color doesn't appear sometimes)
[16:29] <mirek2> hm, that's strange
[16:29] <issa> technically it would work better especially with the smaller 16x16 size
[16:30] <issa> if we remove the brush would it be better to use a highlighter for the highlight icon?
[16:30] <mirek2> I like the a in the rectangle
[16:30] <mirek2> but it's all up to you, really
[16:31] <mirek2> whatever you think looks best
[16:31] <issa> me too, but it's not the same as tango metaphor
[16:31] <mirek2> that's okay
[16:31] <mirek2> we can change the tango metaphor
[16:32] <issa> if we use a highlighter, would it be better to use the a in the rectangle for the background
[16:32] <issa> because nothing really represents the background well
[16:32] <mirek2> (the Tango testing pack is still a work in progress)
[16:32] <mirek2> issa: I like the rectangle
[16:32] <mirek2> so, sure, it's alright to use it
[16:33] <issa> I'll try both and see
[16:33] <issa> ok final flat icons related topic; colors
[16:33] <mirek2> ok
[16:33] <issa> what color should we use for the icons, both monochrome and (later on) colored
[16:34] <mirek2> it's up to you :)
[16:34] <mirek2> one of the Tango grays, maybe?
[16:34] <issa> I'm torn between using libo's palette or tango's
[16:35] <mirek2> use Tango's, as that's the one we use now for icons
[16:35] <issa> the problem with libo's palette is that it doesn't have reds, so we can't stick with it exclusively
[16:35] <mirek2> LibO's palette is for marketing only right now
[16:35] <issa> ok
[16:39] <mirek2> one thing that bugs me with the icons right now is the inconsitent line widths
[16:39] <issa> any icons in particular?
[16:40] <mirek2> compare the undo/redo icons to table, link, or align
[16:40] <issa> the horizontal lines are the same
[16:41] <mirek2> the undo/redo icons seem much thinner, though
[16:42] <issa> maybe it's because they are disabled?
[16:44] <mirek2> I don't think it's that
[16:44] <issa> http://i.imgur.com/6kGyS3d.png
[16:45] <mirek2> I think it might be due to the grid alignment
[16:46] <mirek2> the link and align icons aren't aligned to a pixel grid
[16:46] <mirek2> how do you resize the icons?
[16:47] <mirek2> what ratio, I mean?
[16:47] <issa> one is 16x16 the other is 24x24
[16:47] <issa> I simply type in the size
[16:48] == medieval [c1280ada@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.40.10.218] has joined #libreoffice-design
[16:48] <medieval> hi all
[16:48] <mirek2> hi medieval
[16:48] <mirek2> issa: could you please use 22x22 instead of 24x24
[16:48] <issa> hello medieval
[16:48] <issa> this is the size we're currently using?
[16:48] <mirek2> that will make it more likely to match a pixel grid
[16:49] <mirek2> issa: I think we're using 22x22 with a 1px border
[16:49] <mirek2> padding, I mean
[16:49] <issa> oh that makes sense
[16:49] <mirek2> not 100% sure, though
[16:50] <issa> the icons did appear weirdly large the first time I tried them
[16:50] <issa> I'll check the other icons
[16:50] <medieval> (can somebody upload a previous text to me?)
[16:50] <mirek2> sure, I will
[16:51] <Feldo> Hi medieval.
[16:52] <mirek2> http://piratepad.net/iiI9upGBbK
[16:54] <mirek2> also, the table icon seems a bit too tall
[16:54] <mirek2> the full height should mostly be used only for complex, multi-item icons
[16:55] <mirek2> single symbol icons should use less of the height
[16:55] <mirek2> so that they don't stand out so much
[16:55] <issa> I can remove the double line beneath the first cell
[16:56] <mirek2> perhaps remove a whole row of cells
[16:56] <issa> or even remove thebottom row
[16:56] <issa> yeah
[16:57] <mirek2> the show hidden items symbol is a bit too big as well
[16:58] <mirek2> also, it'd be great if you could align the icons to a pixel grid
[16:58] <mirek2> (very important for the way the icons are displayed)
[16:58] <issa> show hidden items?
[16:58] <issa> they are mostly aligned
[16:59] <issa> only free form shapes aren't since they don't use straight lines
[16:59] <mirek2> the align icons don't seem aligned
[16:59] <mirek2> show hidden items = the paragraph symbol
[16:59] <issa> they should be
[17:00] <mirek2> they appear fuzzy in the screen you sent https://raw.github.com/libodesign/flat-icons/master/context.png
[17:00] <issa> check the svg if you can
[17:00] <mirek2> perhaps it's fixed now
[17:00] <mirek2> I'll check it
[17:00] <issa> yeah that's probably because of the size
[17:03] <mirek2> the originals seem aligned to grid, but the large icons don't seem to be
[17:03] <issa> because the are merely clones
[17:03] <issa> resized clones
[17:04] <mirek2> the larger icons should really be adjusted for their size
[17:04] <mirek2> so it'd be better not to use clones
[17:04] <mirek2> it's common practice to adjust icons for each size variant
[17:04] <issa> ok
[17:05] <issa> so what line widths shall I use?
[17:06] <issa> in 16x16 it's mostly 2 pixels
[17:06] <mirek2> right, so with 22x22, it should be mostly 3 pixels
[17:07] <issa> but I should avoid using half pixels no?
[17:07] <mirek2> yes
[17:07] <mirek2> make sure the important elements are thicker
[17:07] <issa> that'll complicate stuff a bit
[17:07] <mirek2> yes
[17:08] <issa> I think 2px with more detailed icons would be better
[17:08] <issa> for example 4 lines for the alignment icons rather than 3
[17:08] <mirek2> it's up to you
[17:08] <mirek2> it will mean more work, but the end result will likely be better
[17:09] <issa> true
[17:09] <mirek2> (more work as in you won't be able to just resize icons anymore)
[17:09] <mirek2> and will have to adjust the existing icons for this new style
[17:09] <issa> it's alright
[17:09] <mirek2> alright :)
[17:10] <issa> so these are the most suitable tango colors http://i.imgur.com/PMqKIxw.png
[17:11] <mirek2> looks good
[17:11] <mirek2> though it's hard to tell now
[17:11] <mirek2> without using it
[17:11] <issa> I'm guessing the darker colors are more suitable
[17:11] <mirek2> yes
[17:11] <mirek2> I think so
[17:12] <mirek2> what about SparkleShare?
[17:12] <issa> what about it?
[17:12] <mirek2> have you been able to get it running?
[17:12] <issa> yes, I've been using it to update the icons
[17:13] <mirek2> ok, great
[17:13] <issa> I haven't uploaded the pngs because I don't think it's useful
[17:13] <mirek2> sure
[17:14] <issa> one more question regarding the icons, what to do with the numbered bullets?
[17:14] == astron [5f71d283@gateway/web/freenode/ip.95.113.210.131] has joined #libreoffice-design
[17:15] <issa> the numbers are too small to be seen, but moving the lines will ruin consistency with the alignment icons
[17:15] <mirek2> our current icon skips every other line
[17:16] <mirek2> (4 lines with bullets, 2 lines with numbering)
[17:16] <mirek2> the lines are aligned, so consistency is maintained
[17:16] <mirek2> or you could try 3 lines for each
[17:16] <mirek2> if that would make it fit
[17:16] <issa> and make the numbers 3 or 4 pixels high?
[17:17] <mirek2> sure
[17:17] <mirek2> it's really all up to you
[17:17] <mirek2> make some designs, go for whatever feels better
[17:17] <issa> I know that everything is up to me :P
[17:17] <mirek2> (or check on the mailing list if you're not sure)
[17:17] <mirek2> :)
[17:18] <mirek2> I really can't tell you what to do without seeing the icons
[17:18] <mirek2> you often have to go by intuition there
[17:19] <issa> the png preview is full size
[17:19] <astron> hi all...
[17:19] <issa> https://raw.github.com/libodesign/flat-icons/master/stencils.png
[17:19] <issa> hi astron
[17:19] <mirek2> hey astron
[17:19] <medieval> hi astron
[17:20] <mirek2> issa: I don't really like the way it's in the PNG
[17:20] <issa> how would you put it?
[17:20] <mirek2> would it be possible to have 3 lines in the numbering icon as well?
[17:21] <issa> I guess? that would make the numbers clearer but it would be harder to tell them apart in one glance
[17:22] <mirek2> in the 22x22 icon, not necessarily in the 16x16 one
[17:23] <issa> I'll try and see
[17:23] <mirek2> ok, great :)
[17:23] <mirek2> astron, could you update us on the ESC call?
[17:24] <astron> no. sorry
[17:24] <astron> i skipped ir
[17:25] <astron> t
[17:25] <mirek2> alright
[17:25] <astron> sorry, i will attend next week. skipping was not such a great decision, i guess.
[17:25] <mirek2> that's alright, I'm not sure we had much to share anyway
[17:26] <astron> fwiw, i was told we could be more active on ux-advise, though
[17:26] <mirek2> ok
[17:26] <astron> i guess i should be a (bigger) part of we... but i dont really have the nerve currently
[17:27] <issa> is ux-advise only usability or anything ui related?
[17:27] <astron> mostlyfor usability questions coming from hackers
[17:27] <mirek2> well, it's basically for interaction between UXers and developers
[17:28] <mirek2> the topics should be relevant to both sides, but can include anything that falls under UX
[17:28] <astron> right.
[17:28] <mirek2> so, yes, anything UI-related
[17:29] <astron> btw, there was a request for an icon recently... from lionel.
[17:29] <astron> ill find the mail
[17:29] <issa> i see
[17:30] <astron> http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Libreoffice-ux-advise-icon-for-toolbar-needed-td4041595.html
[17:30] <astron>  i have yet to find the appropriate thread on the dev list, so i can see  what this is actually about (lionel doesnt mention it)
[17:30] <mirek2> right
[17:31] <mirek2> http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.comp.documentfoundation.libreoffice.ux-advise
[17:32] <mirek2> that's the only place where the quote appears, according to google
[17:32] <mirek2> so I'm not sure if it's from a public mailing list
[17:32] <mirek2> (I googled "It can be done very easy. Only problem is that, new icon is needed, which")
[17:33] <mirek2> could you write Lionel and ask him what he's asking for?
[17:34] <astron> i will, yes.
[17:34] <mirek2> thanks
[17:35] <astron> however, issa, even if he needs a tango icon, could you maybe do it?
[17:35] <astron> (since the impress remote icon i cant but trust you :) )
[17:37] <issa> astron thanks, I'll try :)
[17:37] <astron> okay, great.
[17:37] <issa> but I still didn't understand what the icon is about
[17:37] <issa> should I contact him?
[17:37] <astron> no, thats fine, i can do that...
[17:38] <issa> (also technically the impress remote is a derivative of mirek's work)
[17:38] <astron> but its probably something database-related
[17:38] <issa> sure, just cc me
[17:38] <astron> sure–we can do derivatives of each others work again, of course ;)
[17:40] <mirek2> if I can move onto another topic:
[17:40] <astron> sure
[17:40] <mirek2> there are a lot of projects that we sort of abandoned
[17:41] <mirek2> a few weeks back we agreed to change the scope of the color picker
[17:41] <mirek2> to be document-color oriented
[17:41] <mirek2> color theme oriented, sorry
[17:42] <mirek2> let's have the proposal week this coming week, the tentative design next week
[17:42] <astron> what was the developers reaction there, btw?
[17:42] <mirek2> basically, it would be possible to have color themes, but nobody is working on them
[17:43] <astron> right, just like the color picker
[17:43] <mirek2> oh, and we don't have to worry about whether it's in the ODF spec
[17:43] <astron> ..?
[17:43] <mirek2> yup
[17:44] <issa> medieval and I already made ones
[17:44] <mirek2> where are they?
[17:45] <issa> just a second
[17:46] <medieval> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/anhuju4pi2ozebu/5loAr1R-LP
[17:46] <issa> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:I_colorpicker.png
[17:47] <mirek2> cool
[17:47] <issa> (I'd like to change some little details though)
[17:47] <mirek2> I've made one as well
[17:48] <mirek2> http://ubuntuone.com/6LRShdI4vUMdwiJaYMKbtP
[17:48] <issa> show us
[17:48] <mirek2> btw, it'd be really good to have touch support with everything new we develop
[17:49] <mirek2> touch in mind, though not touch-first
[17:50] <astron> mirek, yours doesnt open for me
[17:51] <medieval> (ubuntuone isn't very stable)
[17:51] <mirek2> right
[17:51] <medieval> (try again, for me it opened)
[17:52] <issa> it's a bit too.. unorthodox
[17:52] <mirek2> should I upload it elsewhere?
[17:52] <medieval> no
[17:52] <issa> (it opened for me)
[17:52] <mirek2> issa: what would you change?
[17:53] <issa> check mine
[17:53] <medieval> Should we have popover or dialog for custom color?
[17:53] <issa> medieval: I say dialog
[17:54] <mirek2> I would keep it in the popover, for easy access
[17:54] <mirek2> (not that important in Writer, but key in Draw)
[17:54] <medieval> or is it easy to implement?
[17:55] <issa> I don't think saw, draw is more about diagrams rather than detailed drawings
[17:55] <mirek2> it's probably as easy to implement as it would be in a dialog
[17:55] <issa> *I don't think so
[17:55] <medieval> mirek2 ok
[17:55] <mirek2> issa: Draw doesn't really have a defined purpose
[17:56] <mirek2> the reason why people don't use it to do detailed drawings is because the UI for it sucks
[17:56] <mirek2> a part of that is not being to use custom colors easily
[17:57] <issa> mirek2: given that it's in an office suite makes me think it isn't for "art"
[17:58] <issa> anyway as long as the default popover looks the same it's fine by my
[17:58] <issa> *me
[17:58] <mirek2> looks the same?
[17:58] <mirek2> as what?
[17:58] <astron> why would we want to forbid people to make art with libreoffice?
[17:58] <astron> also, what good is draw at anything these days?
[17:59] <issa> mirek2: as in it only appears when you click the bottom of the panel
[17:59] <issa> astron: true
[17:59] <mirek2> issa: yes, as in the mockup
[18:00] <issa> yes
[18:00] <astron>  you could try to bring it closer to visio (technical drawings) or to  corel draw/freehand/illustrator (art) – but currently i see neither  direction realized there
[18:00] <mirek2> right
[18:01] <issa> I'd assume visio is the goal
[18:01] <astron> (the only cool features are measurements and connectors, that indicate the visio direction)
[18:01] <mirek2> issa: Draw really doesn't have a direction
[18:02] <mirek2> it can import PDF's, Publisher files, Visio files, SVG's
[18:02] <mirek2> perhaps it would be best to split it in 2 someday
[18:02] <astron>  one of the things about draw is that it hasnt even seen much  development, since libreoffice started and even in the past few years at  ooo...
[18:02] <mirek2> but I doubt anyone would be willing to maintain it
[18:02] <mirek2> astron: right, nobody cares about it much
[18:03] <mirek2> but it's easy to keep, as it shares a lot of code with Impress
[18:03] <issa> I've always used powerpoint whenever I needed visio
[18:03] <astron> and even impress is under-maintained
[18:03] <mirek2> yes
[18:04] <issa> so back to the mockups, I think explaining the reasonings for everything is important
[18:05] <astron>  the only things that are maintained well currently are writer and calc,  and to a degree, base. but base has a long way to go, apparently to  catch up with access.
[18:05] <issa> but I'm not sure if it's better to do here or in the wiki
[18:06] == Feldo [56440636@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.68.6.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
[18:06] <mirek2>  alright, so let's have proposal week this week and change the scope,  removing document colors and palettes and adding in theme colors
[18:07] <medieval> ok
[18:07] <mirek2> anyone can put reasoning in the "Description" section of their proposal, we'll discuss the proposals next week
[18:07] <mirek2> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Color_Picker
[18:07] <mirek2> on this wiki page
[18:07] <mirek2> I'll remove the current tentative design
[18:08] <issa> cool
[18:08] <mirek2> great :)
[18:09] <mirek2> another abandonned project: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Infobar
[18:10] <astron> well, we have them now, i think
[18:10] <astron> ?
[18:10] <astron> they just arent put to use
[18:10] <mirek2> you mean the descriptions?
[18:10] <mirek2> the infobars?
[18:11] <mirek2> is it alright if I promote my guidelines to official status?
[18:11] <astron> yes
[18:11] <mirek2> great
[18:12] <mirek2> also, I assume T-shirts 2013 is no longer relevant?
[18:12] <astron> sorry. i meant we have infobars now
[18:12] <astron> not that i fully agree with your guidelines (i hadnt read them)
[18:12] <mirek2> ok
[18:12] <mirek2> please, everyone, read them
[18:13] <mirek2> it'd be good to have consistent use of the infobars
[18:14] <astron> basically, i think i am in agreement... 
[18:15] <issa> me too, I never thought of it but it seems extremely useful
[18:15] <mirek2> ok, good
[18:15] <mirek2> alright if I promote it to official status, then?
[18:15] <astron> but i would like to use them for showing progress as well
[18:15] <issa> should add enabling complex text languages based on system/document
[18:16] <mirek2> astron: is that what the status bar is for?
[18:16] <mirek2> issa: what do you mean?
[18:16] <mirek2> the guidelines were modeled after Chrome's guidelines, btw
[18:17] <astron> oh, can you link to those?
[18:17] <mirek2> they're linked to under Relevant art, I think
[18:17] <issa>  mirek2: if you want to use any rtl languages (e.g. Arabic) or complex  language (e.g. Chinese) you have to enable a checkbox in the settings
[18:17] <mirek2> http://dev.chromium.org/user-experience/infobars
[18:18] <issa> mirek2: many Arabic users we came across complained because they couldn't figure out how to enable Arabic
[18:19] <astron> mirek, we might not forever have a status bar and the info bars make it more visible (without being annoying)
[18:19] <mirek2> issa: is it disabled on an install of an Arabic LibreOffice version?
[18:19] <issa> mirek2: it was, I'm not sure about now
[18:19] <astron> mirek: no, but many arabic users use us-en as their os locale
[18:19] <astron> should be en-us
[18:19] <issa> yes that's very true
[18:19] <mirek2> I don't see how the infobar would be used in this case
[18:20] <mirek2> should everyone's LibreOffice ask if they want to enable complex language support?
[18:20] <issa> "This document contains Arabic text, would you like to enable CTL to be able to use Arabic as an input language?"
[18:20] <astron> right, how would you detect whether to display it? when reading arabic?
[18:20] <mirek2> issa: sounds good
[18:20] <issa> or if possible it should check the system's keyboard input languages
[18:20] <mirek2> that would fall under what the guidelines say, though, so there's no need to edit the guidelines for that
[18:21] <issa> yes, but maybe add it somewhere so that we don't forget it :)
[18:21] <mirek2> ok, I'll add it under valid applications
[18:22] <astron> maybe we could collect a number fo examples?
[18:22] <mirek2> I think the examples we have are find
[18:22] <astron> (a larger number)
[18:22] <mirek2> fine
[18:23] <astron> ie very practical, concrete examples
[18:23] <mirek2> if a developer is reading the spec, he shouldn't have to wade through a long list of possible uses
[18:23] <mirek2> but if there's one or two important examples that you would add, sure
[18:23] <issa> add a new section for all potential uses?
[18:23] <astron> issa: thats what i meant
[18:24] <issa> astron: yes, I'm telling mirek2 
[18:25] <mirek2> if you'd like
[18:25] <mirek2> I don't think it's necessary, though
[18:25] <mirek2> and I would prefer to keep the guidelines short
[18:25] <mirek2> so that developers would feel inclined to read them :)
[18:25] <issa> that's why I'm saying put it in another section (or even page)
[18:26] <mirek2> isn't that unnecessarily complicated?
[18:26] <astron> it helps us not to forget things that could be changed
[18:26] <mirek2> doesn't the developer really only need a few examples to know where to use the infobars?
[18:27] <mirek2> astron: I think bug reports are better for that
[18:27] <mirek2> (as in, if an infobar is needed, submit a bug)
[18:27] <astron> ok
[18:27] <issa> fair enough
[18:28] <mirek2> astron: what use case do you see for progress indication?
[18:28] <astron> seeing if i should run to the printer yet..?
[18:29] <mirek2> if you dismiss it, where would it appear?
[18:29] <astron> of course, the saving indicator would be less important, if you could still use libo while it saves something
[18:30] <mirek2> I would find it very annoying if I had to close the infobar every time I saved a document
[18:30] <issa> since it is inspired by browsers I think status shouldn't be there
[18:31] <astron>  hm, no, it would close automatically then, after its doen  saving/printing, much like the status bar currently returns to its usual  appearance when either of these actions is finished
[18:31] == Feldo [56440636@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.68.6.54] has joined #libreoffice-design
[18:32] <mirek2_> sure, but the infobar would bother me and I would want to close it
[18:32] <Feldo> Is it normal I didn't see any new message for about half an hour?
[18:32] <issa> for example when I'm working on an important document I save every few seconds
[18:32] <mirek2_> that sometimes happens on IRC
[18:32] <astron> feldo: no, you were disconnetced
[18:33] <astron> (at least that was shown to us)
[18:33] <mirek2_> http://piratepad.net/iiI9upGBbK
[18:34] <Feldo> ok
[18:34] <mirek2_> (even Ubuntu's notifications bother me, actually)
[18:34] == mirek2 [4e66c274@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.102.194.116] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
[18:34] <issa> (mirek2_: yes those are quite terrible)
[18:35] <mirek2_> also, it doesn't look like we're getting rid of the status bar anytime soon, so I would just keep the functionality there
[18:35] <issa> I totally agree
[18:36] <mirek2_> once we do lose it, we can brainstorm on how to replace it
[18:36] <astron> ok, then
[18:37] <mirek2_> so, alright if I make the guidelines official?
[18:37] <issa> I'd say yes
[18:37] <mirek2_> if yes, then we should start a place for the guidelines?
[18:37] <mirek2_> a new HIG page?
[18:38] <Feldo> Sorry guys, I have to go. I forgot to do something so I can't stay to ask questions at the end of the meeting.
[18:38] <mirek2_> alright
[18:38] <Feldo> Goodbye everyone.
[18:39] <mirek2_> if you have questions, post them on the mailing list
[18:39] <mirek2_> bye
[18:39] <issa> bye
[18:39] <mirek2_> ok if I create a HIG page?
[18:39] <Feldo> mirek2: okay
[18:39] == Feldo [56440636@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.68.6.54] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
[18:39] <issa> mirek2_: why wouldn't the new version announcement be there? doesn't browsers do that?
[18:39] <issa> what's a HIG?
[18:40] <mirek2_> issa: actually, browsers usually keep the new version quiet
[18:40] <astron> human interface guidelines
[18:40] <mirek2_> you often don't notice an update
[18:40] <issa> oh ok
[18:40] <mirek2_> here's Android's hig: http://developer.android.com/guide/practices/ui_guidelines/index.html
[18:41] <mirek2_> sorry, whoops, here it is: http://developer.android.com/design/index.html
[18:41] <astron> mirek, do we have anything with the semblance of a hig
[18:41] <mirek2_> here's elementary's: http://elementaryos.org/docs/human-interface-guidelines
[18:42] <mirek2_> astron: no, but we should start collecting guidelines
[18:42] <mirek2_> for situations where the platform's guidelines either don't mention something or when they can't be followed
[18:43] <astron> ok
[18:43] <mirek2_> so should I add a HIG page, initially with just the infobar?
[18:44] <astron> we could reference gnomes hig as a fallback
[18:45] <astron> (gnome 2, that is, since gnome 3's is still not very stable)
[18:45] <mirek2_> sure, sounds good
[18:45] <mirek2_> is gnome 3's public yet
[18:45] <mirek2_> ?
[18:45] <astron> there is a draft somewhere...
[18:46] <astron> but in many cases it also falls back to the old hig
[18:47] <astron> https://live.gnome.org/UsabilityProject/HIG3
[18:47] <mirek2_> yes
[18:47] <mirek2_> or perhaps we could use elementary's HIG?
[18:48] <astron> really?
[18:48] <mirek2_> given that Gnome 2's HIG was designed a very long time ago
[18:48] <mirek2_> astron: why not?
[18:49] <mirek2_> http://elementaryos.org/docs/human-interface-guidelines
[18:51] <astron>  well, for one there a re several sections that dont apply to libo at  all (dock usage, etc) – we can ignore those. and also, something like http://elementaryos.org/docs/human-interface-guidelines/text/writing-style seems wildly inappropriate
[18:52] <mirek2_> the sections under "Desktop integration" should be taken for what they are: desktop integration with Elementary
[18:53] <mirek2_> how is writing style inappropriate? all of the principles seem right to me
[18:53] <mirek2_> what do you disagree with?
[18:54] <astron> things like recommendation the wording "get some friends" make me a bit wary of what the elementary people do elsewhere
[18:54] <astron> (i find this wording a bit offensive)
[18:54] <mirek2_> I don't really agree with "Get some friends" either, but the actual principles seem solid
[18:55] <astron> right
[18:56] <astron> also, apparently it isnt entirely finsihed either, and also falls back to gnome's hig
[18:57] <mirek2_> I think it's almost finished if not finished
[18:58] == astron has changed nick to astron_afk
[18:58] <mirek2_> given that it's more readable and more modern (i.e. suitable for modern UIs), I think it fits the bill better
[18:59] <astron_afk>  still, i think there would be some acceptance problems (gnome still  being the bigger platform and elementary being irrelevant outside of the  ubuntu sphere)
[19:00] <astron_afk> also, it does not seem to cater to touch user either, so its not that much more modern
[19:00] <mirek2_> elementary's guidelines build on Gnome's
[19:00] <mirek2_> astron_afk: sure, but it's still better than Gnome 2's guidelines
[19:01] <mirek2_> it's also misleading to call gnome the "bigger platform"
[19:02] <issa> is it?
[19:02] <mirek2_> given that there's a range of Linux desktop UIs now and only Mate is truly Gnome 2
[19:03] <mirek2_> (and Gnome 3 is not at all like Gnome 2 -- actually, Pantheon is more like Gnome 2 than Gnome 3 is)
[19:05] <mirek2_> while astron is afk, I'll bring up another topic
[19:05] <mirek2_> would anyone like to revive the Options cleanup project?
[19:06] <mirek2_> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Analyses/Global_Options
[19:07] <mirek2_> we need to:
[19:07] <mirek2_> - compare the stuff we have to the current dialog
[19:07] <mirek2_> - start work on the dialog options specific to each module
[19:09] <issa> not really, my hands are quite full
[19:09] <mirek2_> alright
[19:09] <issa> (and to be honest it doesn't seem interesting)
[19:09] <mirek2_> true
[19:10] <mirek2_> but it would solve some big problems
[19:10] <mirek2_> like the complex language problem you mentioned earlier
[19:10] <mirek2_> right now, it's hard to find any setting in the dialog
[19:11] <mirek2_> medieval, what about you?
[19:11] <medieval> I have quit limited time this (probably next week)
[19:11] <mirek2_> ok
[19:12] <medieval> what to you want to be done with it?
[19:13] <mirek2_>  basically, first we analyze whether the option is necessary, whether  it's just a power user setting, or whether it can be done away with  altogether
[19:13] <issa> I might know one or two guys who might be interested, although they aren't designers
[19:13] <mirek2_> if it's a power user setting, we move it to a new "Advanced options" dialog
[19:13] <mirek2_> issa: that'd be great
[19:13] <mirek2_> they don't need to be designers
[19:14] <mirek2_> actually, it's very menial work
[19:14] <issa> good, I'll check with them tomorrow
[19:14] <mirek2_> the core of the work is listing the options, like on https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Analyses/Global_Options
[19:14] <medieval> mirek: I thought it have be done?
[19:14] <mirek2_> only for Global options
[19:15] <mirek2_> and given that the options were listed based on the help page, there are probably some options missing
[19:15] <mirek2_> that's also something that needs to be done -- comparing that page with the current global options
[19:17] <medieval> (i am thinking about it but now i am going to buy some food, takes some time)
[19:23] <mirek2_> ok, go ahead
[19:32] <mirek2_> astron_afk: when you get back, please tell us
[19:35] <medieval> i am back
[19:35] <issa> welcome back
[19:35] <mirek2_> great
[19:36] <mirek2_> we've been talking with issa about icons privately
[19:36] <mirek2_> here's the jist:
[19:36] <mirek2_> it'd be good to follow the fd.o spec
[19:36] <mirek2_> there's been talk about it a while ago, but nothing came of it: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/Icon_Themes
[19:37] <mirek2_> additionally, it might interfere with development
[19:37] <mirek2_> the fd.o spec is on http://standards.freedesktop.org/icon-naming-spec/icon-naming-spec-latest.html
[19:39] <mirek2_>  also, alex wrote on a semi-private mailing list: "I need to sort out  some rather big issues before I can think of participating in the  project again. I hope that doesn't affect the workflow too much and I  wish you good luck with the next release."
[19:39] <issa> I wouldn't mind working on it but I really don't want to halt designing the icons
[19:40] <mirek2_> so we can't count on him working on the Tango testing icons anytime soon
[19:40] <issa> (working on the naimng I mean)
[19:40] <issa> *naming
[19:41] <mirek2_> fd.o naming isn't something we have to have, but it'd be nice to have
[19:42] <mirek2_>  I don't think we'll find anyone to do it, though, as it's that sort of  boring thankless menial job that nobody really wants to do :)
[19:42] <issa> heh, true
[19:43] <mirek2_> anything else to discuss?
[19:44] <issa> I was wondering if we should delay the meeting between 30 minutes and an hour
[19:44] <issa> since most people come late, or would they come even later?
[19:45] <medieval> i have something
[19:45] <mirek2_> I think they would come even later
[19:45] <mirek2_> but sure, we could ask if we should postpone the meeting
[19:45] <mirek2_> would you like to send out a maling list thread about that?
[19:46] <mirek2_> originally, we used a doodle poll, and this came to be the most fitting time
[19:46] <mirek2_> medieval: go ahead
[19:46] <medieval> Design/Analyses/Global Options
[19:46] <mirek2_> yes?
[19:46] <issa> (the current time is more suitable for me actually)
[19:46] <mirek2_> me too
[19:46] <medieval> you me it is missing: writer
[19:47] <mirek2_> that's not a global option
[19:47] <mirek2_> that's a module-specific option
[19:47] <mirek2_> module-specific options should be listed on separate pages
[19:47] <medieval> ok
[19:47] <mirek2_> which is the job that needs to be done that I was talking about
[19:47] <medieval> ok
[19:48] <medieval> if i have time i am looking to it
[19:48] <mirek2_> awesome :)
[19:48] <issa> great
[19:49] <mirek2_> anything else?
[19:49] <issa> nothing I can think of
[19:50] <medieval> not from me
[19:50] <mirek2_> ok, let's end the meeting then
[19:50] <mirek2_> I'll post the log
[19:50] <medieval> ok
[19:50] <issa> thank you, that was one long meeting
[19:51] <mirek2_> :) they usually drag out this long, sometimes longer
[19:51] <medieval> bye, back to make my Coursework
[19:51] <mirek2_> bye