Design/Meetings/2013-03-16

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Attendees

  • astron
  • colonelqubit
  • hiok
  • K_Peignot
  • KAMI
  • medieval
  • mirek2


Topics

  • Color picker/handling

Log

[18:39] <medieval> hi
[18:40] <@astron247> hi
[18:41] <medieval> not so many peaoplw hwrw today
[18:41] <@astron247> seemingly not.
[18:42] <@astron247> ive pondered writing on the list...
[18:42] <@astron247> ill just do it
[18:43] <medieval> ok
[18:46] <@astron247> done.
[18:56] <@astron247> lets wait five more minutes and then start ... even if i dont really know any good topics, but presumably the colour picker is still current...
[19:02] <@astron247> ok, then: go!
[19:02] <@astron247> hi kevin!
[19:02] <K_Peignot> Hi !
[19:03] <K_Peignot> This time I've been able to connect (Champagne as we say in France !)
[19:03] <@astron247> yay. chin-chin
[19:04] <@astron247> medieval, how far is the colour picker along..?
[19:06] <medieval> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Color_Picker
[19:06] <medieval> so far again with mocups
[19:07] <medieval> no document colors any more
[19:07] <medieval> only theme colors
[19:08] <@astron247> right
[19:08] <medieval> which must yet to be supported by opendocument
[19:08] <@astron247> right, which it isnt yet...
[19:08] <medieval> yes
[19:09] <medieval> i hope the third time color picker will be implemented
[19:09] <@astron247> third time?
[19:09] <K_Peignot> I don't really understand what means themes colors, or themes in the whiteboard
[19:10] <medieval> astron247 third time to make everything over:(
[19:11] <@astron247> k_peignot, the theme colours could be set per document, so you can achieve a consistent look across your document.
[19:11] <medieval> hi hiok
[19:11] <hiok> Hallo leute
[19:11] <K_Peignot> OK, and so they are saved within the document
[19:12] <K_Peignot> Hi  hiok !
[19:12] <@astron247> medieval: sure ... im not so sure where the colour picker is going though... so far, im not certain developers are too interested.
[19:12] <hiok> Hello Kevin
[19:12] <@astron247> hi
[19:12] <K_Peignot> the document file (odf)
[19:12] <medieval> yes
[19:12] <@astron247> k_peignot, yes
[19:12] <K_Peignot> Ok !
[19:13] <medieval> i thin kcolor handling is one of the biggest bottleneck for me in LO
[19:14] <@astron247> for me, too (of course there are many things that arent great)
[19:15] <K_Peignot> For me it was, I always added my colors in the preference dialog of LibO every where
[19:15] <@astron247> in any case, medival, i tend to like your mockup best, as it outsources picking custom colours into a proper window...
[19:15] <@astron247> (btw, for everyone whos just come: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Color_Picker)
[19:16] <K_Peignot> I really like your proposal medieval
[19:17] <K_Peignot> I don't really understand Mirek one's
[19:17] <medieval> I think I need to add "more colors" to bottom as more gradiens are
[19:19] <medieval> mirek's one is all in one popover
[19:19] <@astron247> yes, that seems the more natural place
[19:19] <medieval> mine uses dialog for dialog for custom color
[19:19] <@astron247> ^ my answer was re: I think I need to add "more colors" to bottom
[19:21] <K_Peignot> I don't like the idea of having everything in the popover. For me, choosing (ie defining) a new color should be in a separate dialog
[19:21] <K_Peignot> That could be use in others dialog (paragraph format etc etc)
[19:22] <K_Peignot> THen medieval, I think you should do as Mirek at the top of the popover : add an icon (it makes more understanable it's a popover)
[19:22] <medieval> K_Peignot: I think same
[19:23] <K_Peignot> I guess to define theme color, you click one in the themes colors, it prompts the dialog ?
[19:26] <medieval> Changing themes will be in different place
[19:26] <medieval> Themes are including more than just colors
[19:27] <K_Peignot> The same place than page/paragraph/characters themes ?
[19:28] <medieval> I am nor sure what you are asking...
[19:29] <@astron247> k_peignot: i think yes, but the other puzzle pieces are not there yet
[19:29] <K_Peignot> just how we do to personnalize themes ?
[19:29] <medieval> I can't answer to tjat now
[19:29] <K_Peignot> ok
[19:32] <K_Peignot> So If I undestand well, (it seems logical to me), when you click on a color in the popover, you open the custom colo dialog
[19:33] <medieval> in my proposal: yes
[19:33] <K_Peignot> ok
[19:33] <medieval> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Color_Picker   I uploaded mine proposal
[19:34] <K_Peignot> I think this shouldn't be the case for htemes colors, if they are defined elsewhere, they shouldn't be so easy to change)
[19:34] <K_Peignot> Yes I'm looking at it
[19:35] <K_Peignot> do you have the svg or something of your proposal ?
[19:36] <@astron247> medieval, if you can change colours by clicking them, how do you select them? or do i misunderstand something?
[19:37] <medieval> I think it should be done differently
[19:37] <medieval> left click will aplly color
[19:37] <K_Peignot> so if you change colors of the theme by clicking them, does the new color apply to the whole document ?
[19:38] <mirek2> hi everyone
[19:38] <K_Peignot> (right clicking sorry)
[19:38] <K_Peignot> Hi Mirek
[19:38] <mirek2> (couldn't make it earlier, sorry)
[19:38] <medieval> hi mirek
[19:38] <mirek2> what's the discussion about right now?
[19:38] <medieval> color picker
[19:38] <medieval> i upload log for you
[19:39] <mirek2> thanks
[19:40] <medieval> where did you ulpad it last week, webpage?
[19:40] <mirek2> http://piratepad.net/
[19:41] <K_Peignot> so medieval how do you get to the custom color dialog ?
[19:41] <@astron247> http://piratepad.net/F6zgrT7ebo
[19:41] <medieval> by left clicking to more colors
[19:42] <medieval> my poroposal svg: https://www.dropbox.com/s/a3lq10beg8mx6hi/colors_mymod.svg
[19:43] <K_Peignot> Thank's ! I didn't have the More colour button
[19:44] <medieval> ok
[19:45] <K_Peignot> so these colors are then added to recent colors, that's logical
[19:45] <medieval> yes
[19:46] <mirek2> a couple of notes:
[19:46] <mirek2> - the color tablets should really be big enough to be tappable with a finger
[19:47] <mirek2> (our design's aren't touch first, but they should be touch-compatible)
[19:47] <@astron247> that should be simple enough, i guess
[19:48] <mirek2> it does change the look of things quite a bit
[19:48] <mirek2> would be good to have it in the mockup
[19:49] <mirek2> - secondly, we can't use
[19:49] <mirek2> tab buttons
[19:49] <mirek2> as they're not in the toolkit
[19:50] <K_Peignot> I think medieval proposal is actually almost compatible with that
[19:50] <mirek2> - thirdly, we can't judge designs for gradients yet
[19:51] <medieval> yes
[19:51] <mirek2> K_Peignot: not really -- here are the standard minimum touch sizes: http://www.lukew.com/ff/entry.asp?1085
[19:51] <medieval> (and propblem in future will be: how we change between colors, gradients, bg picture etc, if we cant use tabs)
[19:52] <mirek2> medieval: we can use tabs, just not tab buttons
[19:52] <medieval> ok
[19:53] <K_Peignot> About gradients, what's seems me good in medieval propossal, is that they could be added in the future, but the rest of the proposal can be added right now
[19:53] <mirek2> K_Peignot: sure
[19:54] <mirek2> now, if I may give my personal opinion on things:
[19:54] <K_Peignot> then the minimal sizes could be easily applied to his proposal
[19:54] <K_Peignot> yes of course
[19:54] <medieval> size of colors tiles in MS office 2007+ is ariund 10px
[19:54] <medieval> 10x10
[19:54] <mirek2> yes, and MS Office 2010 and below isn't touch-compatible
[19:55] <medieval> I have 2013 and there it is same size
[19:55] <mirek2> 2013 has a special touch mode
[19:55] <mirek2> http://blogs.office.com/cfs-filesystemfile.ashx/__key/CommunityServer-Blogs-Components-WeblogFiles/00-00-00-00-61/0245.Contextual-2.png
[19:55] <medieval> ok
[19:56] <mirek2> a) I think it'd be really good to have custom colors in the pop-over
[19:56] <medieval> (isn't it possible to change size of tiles in different icons sizes
[19:57] <mirek2> for designers that use custom colors often
[19:57] <mirek2> (e.g. in Inkscape, I personally always use custom colors and rarely touch the palettes)
[19:58] <medieval> (I mostly use palettes:)
[19:58] <mirek2> medieval: don't know, but I wouldn't bet on it
[19:59] <K_Peignot> Mirek : The problem if we have custom colors in the popover, is that we can't use it in other part of the UI (in format dialog etc)
[19:59] <medieval> Mirek2: It would be good implementation, because of better display resolution over time, we can make just bigger icon themes for that
[19:59] <K_Peignot> then Inkscape seems me more like a design product, so of course custom colors are very used
[19:59] <mirek2> K_Peignot: don't theme colors present the same problem?
[20:00] <mirek2> medieval: definitely, but it's something to sort out with the dev
[20:00] <K_Peignot> LibO is a Office suit, and except in draw, you a restricted set of colors
[20:01] <mirek2> that's a chicken-and-egg problem
[20:01] <K_Peignot> Yes you're right I didn't thought about that
[20:01] <mirek2> people don't use custom colors in LibreOffice because they can't
[20:01] <mirek2> (at least not easily)
[20:02] <medieval> mirek2: that
[20:02] <K_Peignot> but why would you need to use a huge amount of colors that would mean always having the custom color there ?
[20:02] <medieval> bigger tiles means less colors
[20:03] <K_Peignot> maybe the custom color could be sort of triggered
[20:04] <mirek2> K_Peignot: in Inkscape, I wouldn't say I use a huge amount of colors, but I do play with colors often and adjust values
[20:04] <K_Peignot> when you click the button it appear (next or behind the actual popover)
[20:05] <K_Peignot> SO what should be easily done is changing the theme color, not adding a new color ?
[20:05] <mirek2> medieval: yes, but we do need to have touch support going into the future
[20:06] <mirek2> K_Peignot: no, I don't think so
[20:06] <K_Peignot> maybe having the possibility to scroll between the tiles ?
[20:06] <mirek2> more often than not, I want a custom color on just one object
[20:07] <K_Peignot> to have more colors with bigger tiles
[20:07] <K_Peignot> (sort of as Ubuntu touch does in the gallery app demo)
[20:08] <mirek2> I don't think the number of colors is that limited with larger tiles
[20:08] <mirek2> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/e/ee/Picker-mirek2.png could fit a row or two more, I would say
[20:08] <mirek2> another note: the picker should be accessible to the color blind
[20:08] <mirek2> so some sort of labels would be good
[20:09] <K_Peignot> adding one row
[20:10] <K_Peignot> so
[20:11] <mirek2> theoretically, we could, yes
[20:11] <K_Peignot> having the custom colors in the bottom of the theme color popover making switch to the custom color, and theme color button at the bottom of the custom color popover to come back to theme popover
[20:11] <mirek2> but given that the OOXML theme spec is out there and we probably want to be compatible with it, I'd keep the number of colors as is
[20:12] <K_Peignot> what does your proposal mirek
[20:12] <medieval> (Is knowing name of color important?)
[20:12] <mirek2> medieval: for the color blind, yes
[20:12] <medieval> ok, then I need this label at least
[20:12] <K_Peignot> then for the theme popover itself, I prefer medieval one
[20:13] <mirek2> K_Peignot: what do you prefer about it?
[20:13] <mirek2> medieval: e.g. if you
[20:13] <K_Peignot> because the three parts are well separated (standard, themes, recent)
[20:14] <mirek2> 're drawing a ripe tomato, you want red, not green
[20:14] <K_Peignot> it's the separation  I like (the the name of each part), not the parts themselves
[20:14] <mirek2> ok
[20:15] <K_Peignot> I'm not sure the 'standard colors' part is useful
[20:15] <mirek2> do we need Standard colors?
[20:15] <mirek2> I don't think it is either
[20:15] <K_Peignot> for me, now
[20:15] <K_Peignot> (I never seen someone using this colors in the same (pretty) docuement
[20:15] <medieval> yes we need
[20:16] <K_Peignot> why ?
[20:16] <medieval> because theme colors can have only greens etc
[20:16] <@astron247> what about documents where the theme isnt set yet?
[20:16] <medieval> its our standard palette there i guess
[20:16] <K_Peignot> maybe just having a default theme for new documents
[20:17] <mirek2> astron247: wouldn't that default to out theme?
[20:17] <mirek2> our theme
[20:17] <K_Peignot> and for imported documents, just present the colors actually in use
[20:18] <mirek2> medieval: that sounds logical, but even with the new versions of Office, I see people using the colors among theme colors rather than the standards
[20:18] <@astron247> k_peignot: i think the idea of using colours from the document has been shelved
[20:19] <mirek2> astron247: yes
[20:19] <@astron247> (for performance reasons, among others)
[20:19] <mirek2> the problem with standard colors is that the choices are awful
[20:19] <K_Peignot> Ok
[20:20] <mirek2> (at least in MS Office)
[20:20] <medieval> we can change the colors
[20:20] <K_Peignot> so always presenting the default theme, unless user/document specify its
[20:20] <K_Peignot> ?
[20:20] <medieval> for better ones
[20:20] <medieval> yes
[20:20] <mirek2> and people rarely know the difference between theme colors and non-theme colors
[20:20] <K_Peignot> so medieval you think the standard colors is useful whe theme isn't defined that's it ?
[20:21] <medieval> no
[20:21] <medieval> there we use standard palette which seems something that my theme palette
[20:21] <mirek2> for standard colors to truly be useful, they would need to offer as many choices as theme colors
[20:22] <K_Peignot> I agree with Mirek, and this would take a lot of place
[20:22] <K_Peignot> then I think that once the user as it's own theme, he don't care a lot about standard colors
[20:22] <medieval> ok, if we have great custom color dialog, then to me removing them is not problem
[20:22] <K_Peignot> that's the point
[20:23] <mirek2> I would still keep custom colors in the popover
[20:23] <mirek2> rather than in a dialog
[20:23] <mirek2> for easy access
[20:23] <K_Peignot> based on Mirek proposal for custom colors, there is HSL and RGB tabs
[20:23] <K_Peignot> we could add a standard colors picker ?
[20:23] <mirek2> what would be the reasons not to have it in the popover?
[20:24] <K_Peignot> in a third tab ?
[20:24] <mirek2> sure, there could be a palette tab
[20:26] <K_Peignot> (I was agains having it in the popover because I thought it could be easier to integrate in other dialogs, but maybe we can do it like this : what's displayed in the popover is (sort of, I'm not a dev) an iframe that should be used everywhere a custom color choice is needed ?
[20:27] <mirek2> I think that might be possible
[20:27] <mirek2> however, we do have a separate custom color dialog if not
[20:27] <K_Peignot> including theme colors
[20:27] <mirek2> right
[20:28] <medieval> what's about tile size then?
[20:28] <K_Peignot> I read the link Mirek send http://www.lukew.com/ff/entry.asp?1085
[20:28] <K_Peignot> about touch sizes
[20:29] <K_Peignot> I think Ubuntu ones really are too much
[20:29] <K_Peignot> (16 mm)...
[20:30] <K_Peignot> windows phone is'nt bad I think : 9x9 mm, separated by 2 mm
[20:30] <mirek2> the size I use in my mockups is 34px, I believe
[20:30] <mirek2> (or perhaps 36, don't remember right now)
[20:30] <K_Peignot> The problem with pixel is it depends resolution (use of retina display is an example)
[20:31] <mirek2> yes, 36
[20:31] <mirek2> K_Peignot: yes, of course we should move to pixel independence
[20:32] <K_Peignot> Mirek : and it seems to be 9x9mm on my screen
[20:33] <mirek2> so it's somewhere around the minimum
[20:33] <K_Peignot> (that's it, 9x9 by M$ is 34px for them)
[20:33] <K_Peignot> 9x9 is the recommended for windows phone (minimum is 7x7)
[20:34] <K_Peignot> Personnaly I think we can go with your 36x36 pxwhat do you think
[20:34] <K_Peignot> ?*
[20:34] <mirek2> slightly short of Apple's specs and the One-Handed Thumb Use on Small Touchscreen Devices paper's recommendations, but it's enough, I think
[20:35] <K_Peignot> In this case, we shouldn't take too big, has it would mean less colors
[20:36] <medieval> mine will look huge with 36x36 pixel size
[20:36] <mirek2> yes, probably
[20:36] <K_Peignot> But does we need so much colors for the theme ?
[20:37] <K_Peignot> Mirek you spoke about OOXML specs, how much color they handle ?
[20:38] <mirek2> http://www.schemacentral.com/sc/ooxml/a-w_themeColor-5.html
[20:38] <mirek2> ms office generates lighter and darker versions of the ten basic colors
[20:39] <mirek2> http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/powerpoint-help/what-is-a-theme-HA010338417.aspx
[20:40] <mirek2> "Theme colors have 12 color slots. The first four horizontal colors are for text and backgrounds. Text that is created with the light colors will always be legible over the dark colors, and text that is created with dark colors will always be legible over the light colors. The next six are accent colors that are always visible over the four potential background colors. The last two colors, not shown in the picture below,
[20:40] <mirek2> erlinks."
[20:40] <medieval> doseont we need as much color as in MO for compatibility?
[20:41] <mirek2> with regard to themes -- yes, probably
[20:41] <mirek2> with regard to standard colors -- those would be handled just like other custom colors, so no need to replicate those
[20:42] <mirek2> of course, just like with Office, we shouldn't show the link colors in the color picker
[20:43] <mirek2> keep in mind, though, that Office only uses 12 theme colors
[20:44] <mirek2> all of the other theme colors in the picker are just variants of these with a different lightness
[20:44] <mirek2> so, for compatibility, it wouldn't be necessary to include them in the picker
[20:46] <mirek2> (by "them", I mean all the variants Office offers)
[20:47] <K_Peignot> Okay. So we need 10 columns
[20:48] <K_Peignot> ?
[20:48] <mirek2> 8 is doable as well https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/e/ee/Picker-mirek2.png, though it's missing 2 shades of gray
[20:51] <mirek2> would anyone like to work on the tentative design?
[20:51] <mirek2> (I've got my hands full, so I'd prefer not to)
[20:51] <K_Peignot> I think I will try tomorow
[20:52] <K_Peignot> nothing else to do
[20:52] <mirek2> alright
[20:52] <mirek2> I'll put up a link to my SVG, in case you want to reuse parts of it
[20:52] <K_Peignot> so to recap
[20:52] <medieval> don't we need these grays there?
[20:52] <mirek2> no
[20:53] <mirek2> but I can see how they could be useful
[20:53] <K_Peignot> 9x9mm separated by 2mm (36x36px)
[20:53] <K_Peignot> (agree with Mirek we don't need so much greys)
[20:53] <mirek2> yes
[20:54] <mirek2> (not sure about 2mm, but yeah, probably)
[20:54] <K_Peignot> then custom color picker and theme colors in the popovers, switching between them by the button at the bottom
[20:55] <mirek2> not sure if that was agreed upon, but of course I would say yes
[20:56] <mirek2> astron247, medieval: what do you guys think?
[20:57] <medieval> if popover is not to difficult to implement then why not
[20:57] <mirek2> alright, cool
[20:57] <mirek2> :)
[20:58] <medieval> i'd prefer if size of tiles is dependent of icon size
[20:58] <K_Peignot> then I think the "picker" in medieval proposal is really great (you can Grab a color from a picture etc)
[20:58] <K_Peignot> medieval you're right I think
[20:59] <mirek2> medieval: I agree
[20:59] <mirek2> 36 for large icons, 18 for small?
[20:59] <K_Peignot> then on touch interface every icons should be at least (example) 9x9
[20:59] <medieval> yes
[20:59] <K_Peignot> WIll do with 18 to see what it does
[21:00] <K_Peignot> I think we should make a wikipage some day, to recap some "guidelines" for touch interfaces
[21:00] <K_Peignot> to follow the same everywhere when possible
[21:00] <K_Peignot> but's that's another problem
[21:00] <mirek2> sure
[21:01] <mirek2> we've already started a HIG page
[21:01] <K_Peignot> you've the link I never saw it
[21:01] <mirek2> it's called "Guidelines", I believe, in the Design wiki menu
[21:02] <K_Peignot> Ok I will go there later
[21:02] <mirek2> we only have guidelines for the infobar so far
[21:02] <mirek2> but we could add touch recommendations later on
[21:02] <K_Peignot> Ok
[21:03] <K_Peignot> so about the "grabber " (don't know the real name) medieval proposed
[21:03] <K_Peignot> (to pick color from pictures etc ) I think it's a good idea to include
[21:03] <medieval> yes
[21:04] <mirek2> we've talked about it and apparently it would be quite hard to implement
[21:04] <mirek2> I agree that it'd be great to have, but it definitely won't be in the first iteration
[21:04] <mirek2> so we should keep it out of the design for now
[21:05] <K_Peignot> I will make the firest iteration design, and maybe integrate these options later in another design when the first one if finished
[21:06] <mirek2> sure, alright
[21:07] <K_Peignot> Mirek, do you have your svg somewhere ?
[21:07] <mirek2> https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_RBf0YVtxzkcmYyVDZxaVBQcjA/edit?usp=sharing
[21:08] <mirek2> be aware that there's a lot of clones
[21:08] <K_Peignot> OK
[21:08] <K_Peignot> medieval, a question about your proposal, what's the pencil in the top right for ?
[21:08] <mirek2> so, e.g. if you want to edit the palette, edit it on the far left
[21:09] <K_Peignot> ok
[21:11] <mirek2> feel free to experiment, though
[21:11] <mirek2> except the OOXML specs, nothing's set in stone
[21:11] <K_Peignot> okay !
[21:13] <mirek2> I guess we can end the meeting now?
[21:13] <mirek2> or any other topics to discuss?
[21:13] <medieval> from me nothing
[21:14] <K_Peignot> It seems me Issa sayed on the ML
[21:14] <K_Peignot> she update the Flat icons whiteboard
[21:14] <K_Peignot> but she couldn't be there to speak about it this week. Waiting next week for her ?
[21:15] <mirek2> yup
[21:15] <K_Peignot> for me, nothing else
[21:16] <mirek2> alright
[21:16] <mirek2> could anyone upload the log?
[21:16] <medieval> i can
[21:16] <mirek2> alright, great :)
[21:16] <mirek2> see you next week, then
[21:17] <medieval> bye
[21:17] <mirek2> bye
[21:17] <K_Peignot> see you guys !
[21:17] <K_Peignot> bye !
[21:20] <@astron247> bye