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    • colonelqubit
    • issa
    • mirek2


    • Query properties icon
    • Flat icons
    • Design wiki
    • Restructuring toolbars
    • New LibreOffice version alert


    [19:04] == issa [256a35a5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.] has joined #libreoffice-design
    [19:06] <mirek2> hi issa
    [19:06] <issa> hello mirek
    [19:08] <mirek2> let's wait until 17:10, then we can start
    [19:08] <issa> sure
    [19:11] <mirek2> alright, let's start
    [19:11] <issa> ok
    [19:12] <mirek2> I suppose you'd like to talk icons?
    [19:12] <issa> yes but before that the icon they requested
    [19:12] <mirek2> okay
    [19:12] <issa> I've designed it for all themes
    [19:13] <issa> the icon is for query properties, so I took the icon for control/form properties for all themes and combined it with the add/remove query icon
    [19:15] <mirek2> wow, you went all out
    [19:15] <mirek2> btw, you don't have to design for all the icon themes
    [19:16] <issa> why not :)
    [19:16] <mirek2> only Tango is fine, though HC and Oxygen are good too
    [19:16] <issa> (it's just one icon, if it was more I wouldn't have done it)
    [19:16] <mirek2> issa: sure, I'm not stopping you
    [19:16] <mirek2> just in case you decide to design more icons
    [19:16] <mirek2> designing for each pack would take a lot of time
    [19:17] <issa> yeah
    [19:17] <mirek2> I assume Human = Tango?
    [19:17] <issa> it seemed that way
    [19:17] <issa> I don't know about the other icons but I checked the parts I needed
    [19:18] <issa> notice the screw driver is different
    [19:18] <mirek2> why is that?
    [19:18] <issa> it's that way in human
    [19:19] <mirek2> I think that's just a leftover from Industrial
    [19:19] <mirek2> (we don't have Tango icons for everything, so we use Industrial as a fallback)
    [19:20] <mirek2> the strong black outline doesn't really fit the Tango style
    [19:20] <issa> yes, I didn't make one for Tango as the rest of Base icons are Industrial
    [19:20] <issa> try Base, almost all exclusive Base icons don't have a Tango version
    [19:20] <mirek2> that's because we don't have Tango icons yet, though
    [19:21] <mirek2> it's not a decision, it's just that no designer devotes time to Base
    [19:21] <issa> yeah I know
    [19:22] <issa> but it wouldn't make sense to make this one in Tango when all the similar ones aren't
    [19:23] <mirek2> okay
    [19:23] <mirek2> though it would make sense to have a Tango one ready, just in case someone wants to devote some time to the Base icons
    [19:23] <mirek2> but I won't push you
    [19:24] <mirek2> and it's true that there are much more important things to take care of :)
    [19:24] <issa> the one who makes them should make it as it uses other icons as a base :)
    [19:24] <mirek2> alright :)
    [19:25] <mirek2> I suppose we should discuss the flat icons now
    [19:26] <issa> yes
    [19:26] <issa>
    [19:26] <issa> someone should give me the okay on these so that I move on to other icons (Impress and Calc toolbars, etc.)
    [19:27] <mirek2> quick review: (I know it's bothersome to go over the same icons over and over, but it'd be good to get the basics down, then it'll go quicker)
    [19:28] <issa> sure, go on
    [19:28] <mirek2> * the large "New file" icon seems to have a different ratio of sides than the small one
    [19:28] <mirek2> (we should probably stick to one ratio)
    [19:28] <issa> whata ratio exactly?
    [19:28] <issa> *what
    [19:28] <issa> it uses the same width
    [19:30] <mirek2> the small one has a 4:5 ratio, whereas the large one has 6:7
    [19:31] <mirek2> the large one is noticably wider
    [19:31] <issa> oh height to width ratio
    [19:31] <mirek2> yup
    [19:31] <issa> yeah I didn't take that into account
    [19:32] <mirek2> also, the PDF page icon has a different size from that of the page
    [19:32] <mirek2> those sizes should probably be uniform
    [19:33] <issa> umm so the small one with a thicker outline?
    [19:33] <issa> (it's not a page after all)
    [19:34] <mirek2> what do you mean, the small one with a thicker outline?
    [19:34] <issa> compare the page outline with the pdf icon outline
    [19:35] <mirek2> sure, the outline can be thicker
    [19:35] <mirek2> I'm just slightly bothered by the ratio of the PDF icon
    [19:35] <issa> it will affect visibility though
    [19:35] <mirek2> as it seems arbitrary
    [19:36] <issa> I copied the Tango testing one last time and you said it was fine :P
    [19:37] <mirek2> the symbol is great,  just the small version's size doesn't feel quite natural compared to the other icons
    [19:37] <mirek2> it seems a bit squished
    [19:37] <mirek2> somehow
    [19:38] <issa> hmm
    [19:39] <mirek2> it's not that big of a deal, though
    [19:39] <issa> ok it's one pixel shorter than the (new) page icon
    [19:40] <mirek2> perhaps you could make it a pixel higher, then?
    [19:40] <issa> yes
    [19:40] <mirek2> great :)
    [19:41] <mirek2> next small issue: the large link icon is a bit too complex
    [19:41] <issa> but it would be too small if I keep it the same as small
    [19:42] <issa> (and would look like a burger if I thicken the lines)
    [19:42] == mirek2_ [4e66c274@gateway/web/freenode/ip.] has joined #libreoffice-design
    [19:42] <mirek2_> sorry, browser crashed
    [19:42] <mirek2_> about the link icon: could you perhaps just remove the parts of chains on the sides
    [19:43] <issa> but it would be too small if I keep it the same as small
    [19:43] <issa> (and would look like a burger if I thicken the lines)
    [19:43] <mirek2_> to look somewhat like,r:42,s:0,i:242&iact=rc&dur=1
    [19:43] <mirek2_> could you post a screen without the two horizontal lines at the sides?
    [19:44] <issa> sure
    [19:44] <mirek2_> maybe I'm just too used to the link symbol that I posted above...
    [19:45] == mirek2 [4e66c274@gateway/web/freenode/ip.] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
    [19:46] <issa>
    [19:47] <mirek2_> hm, okay, I guess the original is best
    [19:47] <mirek2_> about the undo/redo buttons and the buttons using "a": it'd be good to increase the line thickness with size
    [19:48] <mirek2_> with the buttons using lines for paragraphs, though, it's good to keep a fixed line thickness in all sizes
    [19:51] <mirek2_> (you do this in icons like Grammar and Spelling, but not bold or underline)
    [19:51] <issa> sorry went away for a bit
    [19:52] <issa> wouldn't they look off that way?
    [19:52] <mirek2_> that's fine :
    [19:52] <mirek2_> :)
    [19:52] <issa> I did it with the small letters because they wouldn't be visible otherwise
    [19:53] <mirek2_> of course
    [19:53] <mirek2_> I mean that all the text should be thicker with larger sizes
    [19:53] <mirek2_> (just like with actual fonts)
    [19:55] <issa> but what about inconsistency?
    [19:55] <mirek2_> what inconsistency?
    [19:55] <issa> line width
    [19:55] <issa> (these are older non pixel perfect, but you get the idea)
    [19:55] <mirek2_> with paragraphs, it makes sense to retain a fixed line size -- the icon is only showing another paragraph line
    [19:55] <mirek2_> the size of each paragraph line stays the same
    [19:57] <issa> I meant all lines, including those that make up the letters
    [19:58] <issa> also that would mean that the underline and strikethrough lines will be thinner than the letters lines
    [19:59] <mirek2_> the letters should be sized just like they are sized in LibreOffice
    [19:59] <mirek2_> you can try it out yourself
    [19:59] <issa> ok
    [19:59] <issa> about the pdf icon is this better png
    [19:59] <issa> *
    [20:01] <mirek2_> I think the dog ear complicates the icon a bit much
    [20:01] <mirek2_> also, the PDF symbol could perhaps be a bit higher?
    [20:01] <mirek2_> other than that, it's great :)
    [20:02] <issa> if it won't use the page metaphor I think it's better off with a 1 pixel outline (like the one on the wiki)
    [20:02] <mirek2_> sure, that's fine too
    [20:03] <mirek2_> the thing that bothered me was the inconsistency in its size
    [20:03] <issa> yeah no problem
    [20:03] <mirek2_> cool :)
    [20:05] <issa> anything else?
    [20:07] <mirek2_> just tiny things
    [20:07] <mirek2_> the large T feels a bit too round
    [20:08] <issa> from the inside?
    [20:08] <mirek2_> the serifs
    [20:08] <issa> let me try
    [20:09] <mirek2_> the zoom icon in the small version of Print preview feels inconsistent with the large icon
    [20:09] <mirek2_> (I prefer the large one)
    [20:10] <mirek2_> the large one is thicker
    [20:11] <issa> I just changed the stroke width, should I resize the circle/lens of the smaller one?
    [20:11] <mirek2_> yes, please :)
    [20:12] <issa> how about this T
    [20:13] <mirek2_> much better
    [20:21] <mirek2_> one more thing: the mail icon seems a bit too tall
    [20:22] <issa> it's the same as the page icon
    [20:22] <mirek2_> the envelope tends to be much wider
    [20:22] <mirek2_>,r:13,s:0,i:174&iact=rc&dur=820&page=2&tbnh=183&tbnw=181&
    [20:23] <mirek2_>,r:19,s:0,i:192&iact=rc&dur=448&page=2&tbnh=182&tbnw=180&start=8&ndsp=12&tx=111&ty=80
    [20:24] <mirek2_> (icons don't have to have the same height)
    [20:24] <issa> then why did you complain about the pdf icon size :p?
    [20:25] <mirek2_> because the PDF icon is supposed to be a page
    [20:25] <issa> but it isn't, given our symbol for a page
    [20:26] <mirek2_> true
    [20:26] <mirek2_> the PDF icon just stood out for me, though
    [20:26] <mirek2_> it felt odd
    [20:27] <issa> ok
    [20:30] <mirek2_> I mentioned this already: the undo/redo icons are too thin in their large icon
    [20:30] <mirek2_> they would probably be better just resized?
    [20:31] <issa> ,,,
    [20:31] <issa> *...
    [20:31] <issa> you should've specified the alignment icons when you told me to make everything the same width :(
    [20:32] <mirek2_> :( really sorry
    [20:32] <mirek2_> perhaps it's just the different height that bothers me
    [20:32] <mirek2_> the large undo/redo icons seem much higher
    [20:33] <mirek2_> somehow
    [20:33] <mirek2_> the round ends
    [20:34] <mirek2_> I don't know...
    [20:34] <mirek2_> other than that, the rest of the icons is great
    [20:35] <issa> ok
    [20:35] <issa> (I was trying to do it and show you but some curves got messed up)
    [20:36] <mirek2_> that's fine :)
    [20:36] <issa> so once I'm done with these I'll try to make the rest of the icons
    [20:36] <mirek2_> I was thinking that now, if you'd like to involve the community, we could start on the shape icons
    [20:37] <issa> there are approximately 30 icons for the standard toolbars of Calc and Impress
    [20:37] <mirek2_> those are relatively simple to make, yet there are so many that it's annoying to do alone
    [20:37] <issa> I actually have someone how could possibly do them :)
    [20:37] <mirek2_> oh, ok :)
    [20:38] <mirek2_> so you'd rather not try to involve the community?
    [20:38] <mirek2_> (an honest question: involving the community can be time-consuming and even counterproductive)
    [20:38] <issa> I'm not sure if anyone would be willing to
    [20:38] <issa> and yes it might be counterproductive
    [20:39] <mirek2_> alright
    [20:39] <issa> the one I'm talking about is a coworker so this simplifies communication
    [20:39] <mirek2_> ok
    [20:41] <issa> new topic: design wiki page
    [20:42] <issa> the main and developement pages have been updated and look great
    [20:42] <issa> we need to do something similar
    [20:43] <mirek2_> I was thinking about redesigning the page
    [20:44] <mirek2_> (my computer broke a while ago, so I haven't been able to do much work)
    [20:44] <mirek2_> (I keep borrowing computers)
    [20:44] <issa> oh I see, my condolences
    [20:44] <mirek2_> :)
    [20:45] <mirek2_> I was thinking we could do something more visual
    [20:46] <mirek2_> more like
    [20:47] <issa> still we could use the tables like the main wiki page
    [20:47] <issa> or the development page
    [20:47] <mirek2_> sure -- would you like to take care of that?
    [20:48] <mirek2_> I was also thinking we should merge analyses and whiteboards into a projects page
    [20:48] <issa> I'll try :)
    [20:48] <issa> sure
    [20:48] <mirek2_> as we're not working on that many things to require several pages
    [20:48] <issa> current projects and archived projects?
    [20:48] <mirek2_> what do you think?
    [20:48] <mirek2_> issa: yup
    [20:48] <issa> sounds great
    [20:49] <mirek2_> cool
    [20:49] <issa> the most important thing for me is to keep a page for work being done currently
    [20:49] <issa> so that anyone can get the idea at anytime without having to keep up with the mailing lisst
    [20:50] <issa> (for example I made a website concept for 4.0 but they had already decided on one in the mailing list, but I didn't know)
    [20:51] <mirek2_> yup, me too
    [20:51] <issa> so should move inactive stuff into the archive? for example fonts and global options analysis?
    [20:51] <issa> *should I
    [20:51] <mirek2_> fonts are happening
    [20:51] <mirek2_> global options analysis will be, hopefully
    [20:52] <issa> but the page hasn't been updated in months?
    [20:52] <mirek2_> true
    [20:52] <mirek2_> alright, you can archive it
    [20:52] <issa> ok then maybe rather than archive have them in an "adopt me" section in current projects?
    [20:53] <issa> (or "revive me" in archive :p)
    [20:53] <mirek2_> let's just archive it
    [20:54] <issa> and maybe write a note suggesting you revive any of these if you plan to work on them (unless otherwise noted)
    [20:55] <mirek2_> about the Options analysis: it's really kind of half-done
    [20:55] <mirek2_> not sure if it's appropriate to archive them
    [20:55] <mirek2_> it
    [20:57] <mirek2_> other than that, feel free to archive any of the inactive projects
    [20:58] <issa> sure
    [21:00] <issa> do I add a completed and abandoned sections in the archive?
    [21:01] <mirek2_> they're already there
    [21:01] <mirek2_>
    [21:02] <issa> Oh, my bad
    [21:04] <issa> wait, t-shirts 2013 is waiting to be addressed?
    [21:04] <issa> even though the deadline was last December?
    [21:04] <mirek2_> that's a complicated one...
    [21:04] <mirek2_> I guess it is waiting to be addressed...
    [21:04] <issa> did they implement one or not?
    [21:04] <mirek2_> not one of the ones designed
    [21:05] <mirek2_> they used their own
    [21:05] <issa> fair enough
    [21:05] <issa> (although perhaps the deadline should've been updated)
    [21:05] <issa> (that is if we still need one designed)
    [21:05] <mirek2_> I don't think we need one
    [21:06] <mirek2_> it couldn't hurt, though
    [21:06] <issa> then it is implemented :p
    [21:06] <mirek2_> ok
    [21:11] <mirek2_> any other topics?
    [21:19] <issa> nothing that I can think of
    [21:19] <issa> oh wait
    [21:19] <issa> restructuring toolbars
    [21:19] <issa> I know at least a couple of people who are interested in this
    [21:19] <mirek2_> I'm definitely one of them
    [21:19] <issa> shall they create a wiki page and start messing around with them?
    [21:20] <mirek2_> restructuring toolbars is quite a touchy area
    [21:21] <issa> well as long as it's a whiteboard they can write whatever they like no :p?
    [21:21] <mirek2_> sure, but I'm not sure how far that can get us
    [21:21] <mirek2_> I've proposed the following easy hacks as a start:
    [21:21] <mirek2_>
    [21:21] <mirek2_>
    [21:22] <mirek2_> the Hidden Items Menu would allow us to hide certain elements by default without alienating the people who use these elements
    [21:22] <mirek2_> and right-aligned toolbars would help organize toolbars
    [21:23] <issa> that would be the same as more icons menu?
    [21:23] <issa> (the one that appears when the icons don't fit)
    [21:23] <mirek2_> yes
    [21:24] <mirek2_> except it would appear all the time and host the items that are hidden by default
    [21:24] <mirek2_> it would be optional and would be turned on for each toolbar separately
    [21:24] <issa> oh
    [21:24] <mirek2_> it would allow us to do something like Chrome's menu or elementary's appmenu
    [21:25] <mirek2_> or Android's action overflow
    [21:25] <issa> I honestly thought restructuring toolbars meant only decreasing the number of icons :p
    [21:25] <mirek2_> that's certainly part of it
    [21:26] <mirek2_> but, as I said, decreasing the number of icons is a touchy subject
    [21:26] <issa> even some that pretty much everyone would agree with?
    [21:26] <mirek2_> such as?
    [21:27] <issa> the editing something icon that's always disabled
    [21:27] <issa> (unless you are editing a readonly document)
    [21:27] <mirek2_> in that case, though, it's a really important icon
    [21:28] <mirek2_> it'd be great to eliminate it and use an infobar for that use case, though
    [21:28] <mirek2_> with an additional "Edit file" entry in the File menu in case the infobar was dismissed
    [21:29] <mirek2_> or have it appear only when needed
    [21:29] <issa> but it appears always, while you will only be using a read-only file a small fraction of times
    [21:29] <issa> also the spelling icons, one with a dropdown next to it is enough
    [21:29] <issa> (since you will only use it once per document)
    [21:30] <mirek2_> back to the Edit icon...
    [21:30] <mirek2_> how about having a separate "Read-only" toolbar with the Edit icon that would only appear with a Read-only document?
    [21:31] <mirek2_> you say you're a developer -- would you be able to pull something like this off
    [21:31] <mirek2_> ?
    [21:31] <mirek2_> as for the Spelling icon -- we've had arguments about which icon to turn off
    [21:31] <issa> probably not, but I could try and fail :p
    [21:31] <mirek2_> ok, sounds good :)
    [21:33] <mirek2_> the problem is, if we remove the icon, people who are used to it will complain
    [21:33] <mirek2_> which is why I'd prefer to have a Hidden Items Menu first, as that will help acclimate people to the new layout
    [21:33] <issa> maybe
    [21:33] <issa> but complainers will still complain
    [21:34] <mirek2_> it will keep the hidden commands quite accessible and offer a button to customize the toolbar for people who want to have it shown
    [21:34] <issa> there is already a Visible Icons Menu
    [21:34] <mirek2_> it's under a right-click menu, though, so it's not discoverable
    [21:35] <issa> it would be easier to add it where the Hidden Items Menu would be than add a customizable menu there
    [21:36] <issa> (or even add the whole right click menu there)
    [21:36] <mirek2_> well, the visible icons menu only works well if you want to show one or two icons
    [21:36] <mirek2_> also, the usefulness in the hidden items menu lies in that you can still access its items quite quickly
    [21:37] <mirek2_> (just like in the Chrome or Firefox menus)
    [21:37] <mirek2_> whereas with the Visible items menu, you first have to go to the menu, show it, then use it
    [21:37] <mirek2_> if it's a command that you need to use once, you then have to hide it again
    [21:37] <issa> maybe
    [21:38] <issa> Firefox has something like that?
    [21:39] <mirek2_> just on the left, and it's optional
    [21:39] <mirek2_>
    [21:39] <mirek2_>
    [21:40] <issa> this isn't the same, this replaces the menu bar
    [21:40] <issa> just like ms office
    [21:41] <mirek2_> yes, it's not the same
    [21:41] <mirek2_> Chrome is a better example
    [21:41] <mirek2_> that, too, replaces the menubar, though
    [21:42] <mirek2_> that's not a bad thing, though -- being able to easily access more commands through the toolbar
    [21:42] <issa> right
    [21:44] <issa> I don't know it seems a bit redundant
    [21:44] <issa> having another menu in a toolbar with icon shortcuts for menu items
    [21:44] <issa> maybe if we keep them as icons in the menu
    [21:45] <mirek2_> we do it already, only we display it only when there are too many icons
    [21:45] <mirek2_> I mean, when the window size is too small
    [21:45] <mirek2_> and, until recently, every toolbar had an exhaustive menu
    [21:45] <issa> yes, what I'm saying add the icons you removed there
    [21:45] <issa> as icons instead of menu items
    [21:46] <mirek2_> there's an advantage to using menus there
    [21:46] <issa> which is?
    [21:47] <mirek2_> 1) unlike with toolbars, the vertical space you can use is limited only by the monitor size, so you can afford menus
    [21:47] <mirek2_> 2) labels help with identification
    [21:48] <issa> I think they include labels automatically anyway
    [21:48] <mirek2_> 3) both your eyes and your mouse move in a single direction
    [21:48] <issa> no, I meant top down icons
    [21:49] <mirek2_> perhaps I misunderstand your suggestion -- could you repeat it?
    [21:49] <issa> exactly like the current too many icons menu
    [21:49] <mirek2_> yes -- that's the idea
    [21:50] <mirek2_> only this menu would be shown by default
    [21:50] <mirek2_> and host the hidden-by-default (aka. removed) icons
    [21:50] <mirek2_> as well as the overflowing ones
    [21:51] <issa> that's exactly what I'm saying :)
    [21:51] <issa>
    [21:51] <issa> the hidden-by-default should go here and look like this
    [21:52] <mirek2_> yup
    [21:52] <mirek2_> I agree
    [21:52] <issa> :)
    [21:53] <mirek2_> do you think you could implement that?
    [21:53] <mirek2_> perhaps with Kendy's help?
    [21:54] <issa> honestly I have no idea
    [21:55] <issa> I've never added any new features, just fixed localization related bugs
    [21:55] <mirek2_> alright
    [21:55] <mirek2_> if you'd like to give it a shot, ask Kendy about the details :)
    [21:55] <issa> sure
    [21:55] <mirek2_> in any case, that's something we should do if we want to change the toolbar in any kind of major way
    [21:56] <issa> true
    [21:58] <mirek2_> or, if you know an interested dev, this would be great to have done
    [21:58] <issa> sure
    [21:58] <mirek2_> we could even try to raise some money for it, if needed
    [21:58] <issa> so if we had more than one toolbar, currently each one has it's own too-many-icons menu
    [21:59] <issa> maybe we should just create something new and presistant
    [21:59] <issa> maybe even give a different arrow symbol
    [22:00] <mirek2_> not sure I understand the idea
    [22:00] <mirek2_> the too-many-icons menu needs to be tied to the toolbar
    [22:01] <issa> oh ok never mind then
    [22:01] <mirek2_> each toolbar is a separate entity -- if you drag it out, the menu goes with
    [22:01] <issa> oh right
    [22:02] <issa> offtopic, but LibreOffice on windows is showing me that a new version is available
    [22:03] <mirek2_> ok...
    [22:03] <issa> I remember in an earlier meeting you said we shouldn't add that to the infobar
    [22:04] <mirek2_> no, because it's not relevant to the document
    [22:04] <mirek2_> theoretical scenario:
    [22:04] <mirek2_> let's say you're working on a project and have 15 files open in LibreOffice
    [22:04] <issa> ok got it
    [22:04] <mirek2_> alright :)
    [22:05] <issa> although it could appear in the first one of them
    [22:05] <issa> I mean this isn't a lot better
    [22:06] <mirek2_> it isn't, you're right, but it's not good for infobars either
    [22:06] <mirek2_> I'm trying to remember what Firefox did...
    [22:07] <mirek2_> they had a separate pop-up, like so:
    [22:07] <mirek2_>
    [22:07] <mirek2_> that makes a lot more sense to me
    [22:07] <mirek2_> perhaps we should show a pop-up on LibreOffice start?
    [22:08] <mirek2_> that way, it's not something that interrupts the user's workflow
    [22:08] <mirek2_> and, having just started LibreOffice, the user shouldn't mind restarting it
    [22:09] <issa> sure
    [22:09] <mirek2_> you can try to find a developer to work on this on the mailing list
    [22:09] <issa> I guess, but it isn't a priority
    [22:10] <mirek2_> right
    [22:11] <mirek2_> any other topics?
    [22:11] <issa> no
    [22:11] <mirek2_> could you post the log, then?
    [22:12] <mirek2_> (I lost the first part of the chat)
    [22:12] <issa> ok