Design/Meetings/2013-04-13

From The Document Foundation Wiki
Jump to: navigation, search

Attendees

  • issa
  • npcdoom
  • astron

Topics

  • Handling of Branding Issues
  • Template Manager

Log

[16:11] <astron> hi issa
[16:11] <issa> hi
[16:12] <astron> shall we wait for some more time?
[16:14] <issa> I doubt anyone else is coming, but sure
[16:16] <astron> okay, well, then lets start ...
[16:16] <issa> ok
[16:16] <astron> esc update?
[16:17] <issa> I don't keep track of these, but for sake of documentation maybe?
[16:18] <astron> so most of the time, i discussed about michels interesting posts http://mr-consultant.net/blog/2013/04/thoughts-about-design-process-part-1-the-context/
[16:18] <astron> etc. – what may be true/what is not
[16:19] <issa> aha
[16:19] <issa> I haven't read it all but I agree regarding branding and deadlines
[16:20] <astron> but i guess to discuss how to address some of the issues that indeed exist, wed need more people here
[16:20] <issa> true
[16:20] <astron> for the solutions he named, i think most of that won't help us very much (because it relies on community members we dont have – i.e. all the professional ux'ers and paid artists)
[16:23] <issa> exactly
[16:23] <issa> we only have tdf developers
[16:23] <astron> and its all very unmeritocratic
[16:23] <issa> but maybe we could appoint some people that have the final say regarding branding etc?
[16:24] <astron> that would indeed be possible – in the past, though, that was ultimately the participants of this chat
[16:24] <astron> (past two times – before, it was christoph and bernhard mainly)
[16:25] <astron> so, the issue i guess is more how to cooperate with marketing
[16:26] <issa> just to be clear, did anyone approve of the lo4 website?
[16:27] <astron> thats hard to say – it was none of us, but the website people certainly approved, and i think marketing may have thought about it too
[16:28] <issa> that makes it beyond design, someone should have the final say in branding as a whole
[16:28] <astron> so, yes, in that vein, you are certainly right, we may need some sort of branding committee
[16:29] <issa> then we have the deadlines
[16:29] <astron> which is definitely an issue
[16:30] <issa> it doesn't matter with minor stuff, but to have the 4.0 branding after 4.0 is released was very bad
[16:31] <astron> right. it was a pretty big (insert expletive) ...
[16:32] <issa> the problem I assume that it was relatively easy to implement
[16:32] <astron> how do you mean that?
[16:33] <issa> I would guess it wasn't that hard to implement it compared to other design related modules
[16:33] <astron> oh, you mean we started late, because it was so easy?
[16:33] <astron> right, that was a part of it, but the bigger problem were the relations between marketing and us again
[16:33] <issa> no this isn't what I meant
[16:34] <issa> I meant that even though it was easy we got delayed
[16:34] <issa> I'd understand getting delayed on the harder UI edits, but this for the most part was just replacing images and colors
[16:35] <issa> so I guess that's all the same problem again with branding
[16:37] <astron> well, tbh, at the time we got the deadline by which we worked, i did not think that we should make new branding any more for 4.0
[16:38] <issa> agreed
[16:38] <astron> (i mean, leaving the 3.6 branding would have seemed like the better compromise to me at that point – even if indeed a 4.0 should have a new branding)
[16:39] <issa> yes I got it :)
[16:40] <issa> so I guess we should pair the branding commtttee with the esc
[16:41] <astron> pair it?
[16:42] <astron> i absolutely agree that we need more reasonable deadlines for branding stuff – and michels 3 months sounds fine to me
[16:42] <issa> a subset from esc, someone from design and another from marketing and another from the website
[16:42] <astron> ah, no, youre mixing the esc up with the board
[16:43] <issa> oh ok esc is just for development?
[16:43] <astron> esc is ~just developers, one of us, one from qa
[16:43] <astron> yes
[16:43] <issa> oh I see
[16:43] <issa> then the board it is
[16:43] <issa> do we have anyone of us there? kendy?
[16:43] <astron> kendy is a developer most of the time,
[16:43] <astron> mirek is on the board
[16:45] <astron> (but kendy is on the board too)
[16:46] <astron> hm, no … apparently neither is...
[16:47] <astron> oh, sorry ... i was confused about esc and board
[16:47] <issa> no problem
[16:47] <issa> I guess then we need someone to be there
[16:48] <astron> i just looked at it again – so mirek is formally on the esc
[16:48] <astron> (but i join the calls since i have more time)
[16:50] <issa> or since no one from designing is there maybe someone from marketing should have the final say in branding
[16:50] <issa> he will have to deal with both the design team and website team
[16:51] <issa> hi npcdoom 
[16:51] <astron> hi rafael
[16:51] <npcdoom> hiii
[16:52] <npcdoom> all
[16:52] <npcdoom> how you all doing?
[16:52] <astron> i guess its better if someone from all three teams is present and they are on equal footing
[16:52] <astron> were doing good...
[16:52] <issa> great 
[16:53] <astron> log until now: http://piratenpad.de/FEX84jeROG
[16:53] <issa> obviously that would be better if it's possible
[16:55] <astron> (incidentally, if we wanted to do a branding refresh, now would be a good time since we have around five weeks to feature freeze)
[16:57] <issa> why would we do that?
[16:57] <astron> i am not sure – but it might be good to ask before the question pops up later
[16:58] <astron> (i am fine for now with the branding, even if it still is too green for my taste)
[16:58] <issa> well green is libo's color
[16:59] <astron> sure, but it looks a bit out of place on most os's to have this much of it
[16:59] <issa> (I had a little problem with it not being our palette's green, but then realized it's better than our bright green)
[16:59] <astron> but its no use arguing about that now
[16:59] <issa> true
[17:01] <astron> ok, so ill put two questions on the list: some sort of branding committee and the question if we need new branding for 4.1. good?
[17:01] <issa> yes
[17:01] <astron> then lets close this
[17:02] <astron> ok, rafael, i assume you didnt come here for nothing..?
[17:02] <issa> (personally I wouldn't mention the 4.1 branding so that it would be too late by the time someone asks about it :p)
[17:02] <astron> nah, that only gave trouble the last time. and if we can say that a few important people said we dont have to do it, then we can always refer to that later on
[17:03] <issa> sure
[17:05] <astron> npcdoom, did you come here to discuss the template manager?
[17:05] <npcdoom> im auto joined here xD
[17:05] <npcdoom> but i guess we can
[17:06] <astron> ah, ok
[17:06] <astron> i didnt know that.
[17:08] <npcdoom> is it on the table to consider adding back again the all tab?
[17:08] <astron> hm, not sure.
[17:08] <astron> i personally wouldnt
[17:08] <astron> (id rather add a tab for blank pages)
[17:10] <astron> what would be your reason?
[17:10] <npcdoom> well sometimes you need to display it all as it is
[17:11] <npcdoom> we wont need to display empty folders on other tabs
[17:11] <npcdoom> having the problem of the user deleting it thinking it dosent have anything but it does, just not of that type
[17:11] <astron> right, the empty folders are a bit ugly
[17:11] <npcdoom> so
[17:12] <npcdoom> and that will also let me erase folders automatic when they close the manager if its really empty
[17:12] <npcdoom> and yeah i hate those empty blocks xD
[17:13] <npcdoom> about the blank items, cedrics idea was to display them like at the start of every folder
[17:13] <astron> so, for now, i think nothing stands in the way of just hiding a folder if it contains no object of the type
[17:13] <npcdoom> but i think your idea is better, having them on a separate tab
[17:13] <npcdoom> yes
[17:13] <npcdoom> how you delete it?
[17:13] <npcdoom> or access to it?
[17:14] <astron> via one of the other tabs
[17:14] <npcdoom> like for example to save
[17:14] <astron> ah, well save is a different case
[17:14] <npcdoom> but its all together
[17:14] <astron> in that case they need to be visible
[17:15] <astron> when saving, i think we should
1 show all folders (regardless of files in them)
2 show files of a matching type with the one we want to save
[17:16] <astron> does that make sense?
[17:17] <npcdoom> yes
[17:17] <npcdoom> well
[17:17] <npcdoom> and what about when you want to import to a new folder?
[17:17] <npcdoom> you create a new folder, but it will get hided since we dont show it
[17:17] <astron> that is indeed tricky.
[17:18] <npcdoom> what was the reason to remove the all tab?
[17:20] <astron> i havent got it right here but the reason was along the lines of:
* its one more tab (=more ui)
* it will have much more content on it, so be more confusing
* there is nothing that isnt there otherwise
[17:20] <astron> where #3 seems to prove false now
[17:21] <npcdoom> and also gotta remember the remote repositories
[17:22] <astron> do we know the type there before opening the folder?
[17:22] <astron> (type = type of template)
[17:22] <npcdoom> nope
[17:22] <npcdoom> remote repositories are like a file viewer
[17:23] <npcdoom> and we can have nested folders too
[17:24] <astron> ah, so you think getting even a complete list of files from remote is impossible
[17:24] <npcdoom> its possible
[17:24] <npcdoom> but too slow
[17:24] <astron> yeah
[17:25] <npcdoom> probably will just fetch it as you browse it
[17:26] <astron> actually, is there some open remote repo to try?
[17:26] <astron> (ive never actually looked at this)
[17:27] <npcdoom> you will have to set your own one
[17:27] <npcdoom> but atm you can only view the root folder
[17:27] <astron> you mean set it up on localhost?
[17:27] <npcdoom> yeah
[17:27] <astron> thats a bit demotivating
[17:28] <npcdoom> xD
[17:28] <npcdoom> unless you can connect to a cmis capable server
[17:28] <npcdoom> i can search for one
[17:28] <npcdoom> and tell you later
[17:29] <astron> how do i know if i can? (the cmis option is shown in my build)
[17:30] <npcdoom> to do what? browse remote repositories?
[17:30] <astron> if i can use cmis
[17:30] <npcdoom> is on by default
[17:30] <astron> ok.
[17:31] <astron> http://www.openwga.com/blog/html/default/ff8080812baf8cbb012bafc1f0b9029d.int.html
[17:31] <astron> sound good?
[17:33] <npcdoom> yes
[17:33] <npcdoom> it should work
[17:35] <astron> hm, didnt get it to work, but found a nuxeo demo server
[17:36] <astron> and now it takes a while...
[17:36] <astron> hm, seems libo is frozen
[17:38] <astron> ok. can you give me a hint what i should have entered under "path"?
[17:42] <astron> ok, nothing it seems
[17:44] <astron> npcdoom, it seems that libo currently doesnt even know what is a folder and what isnt... is that true?
[17:44] <npcdoom> not sure, i havent played much with that
[17:45] <npcdoom> why you ask?
[17:45] <astron> because i dont see empty rectangles/icons
[17:46] <npcdoom> in the template manager?
[17:46] <npcdoom> sorry kinda lost here
[17:46] <astron> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/87946285/libreoffice/screen-nuxeo-libo.png
[17:47] <astron> yes
[17:48] <npcdoom> i see
[17:48] <npcdoom> can you give me that cmis link u used?
[17:48] <npcdoom> i havent touched that part at all
[17:48] <astron> http://doc.nuxeo.com/display/NXDOC/CMIS+for+Nuxeo#CMISforNuxeo-Onlinedemo
[17:48] <astron> (i used the SOAP WSDL link)
[18:11] <astron> back to the issue withempty folders...
[18:11] <astron> issa, do you have any opinion?
[18:12] <issa> let me catch up
[18:16] <issa> I'm not sure what issue are we talking about it, the empty rectangles?
[18:16] <issa> (I haven't been keeping track of template manager discussions, so feel free to move on)
[18:16] <astron> rectangles =folders
[18:18] <issa> what about them?
[18:20] <astron> well, the issue is that they look a bit odd when they are empty
[18:20] <issa> yeah I assumed it was a bug
[18:20] <issa> were they designed this way?
[18:22] <astron> yes
[18:22] <issa> oh
[18:22] <issa> what are you proposing to replace them? template/folder icons?
[18:24] <astron> no, we were discussing whether to hide them when they are empty
[18:25] <astron> why seems isnt feasible after all...
[18:25] <astron> (they can show up as empty when you only have spreadsheets in them but are on the text docs tab)
[18:25] <astron> which again is a bit ugly
[18:27] <issa> they need to have icons as long as they are shown
[18:28] <issa> if by hiding you mean hiding the whole item (icon + text) it seems ok
[18:29] <astron> yes, thats the idea
[18:30] <issa> but it's not feasible?
[18:31] <astron> well, the problem is that you cant save into a folder that isnt shown etc
[18:31] <issa> oh
[18:31] <issa> I guess then we have to have it show and give it an "empty" icon
[18:31] <astron> right
[18:35] <npcdoom> so an empty icon its then
[18:36] <astron> yes, lets see if we can pretty the folder icons up
[18:38] <npcdoom> another thing, you mentioned to make the dialog modal
[18:38] <npcdoom> but in gnome3 modal dialogs dont have close button
[18:40] <npcdoom> so we need to add a way to close it, we could add the close button, or add a close menu in the gear icon (thats how nautilus does it)
[18:40] <npcdoom> or anything else 
[18:40] <npcdoom> xD
[18:41] <astron> well, the close item in the gear menu is pretty complicated
[18:43] <astron> so, for saving we probably do need a cancel button in the toolbar
[18:43] <npcdoom> well in the other one it will have the close button
[18:43] <npcdoom> but yeah
[18:43] <astron> what other one?
[18:43] <npcdoom> non gnome3
[18:43] <npcdoom> its mostly a gnome3 issue
[18:44] <astron> right
[18:45] <astron> ok. im not sure i follow:
* we probably need cancel button in the save-as-templ dialogue
* we probably dont want it in the template-man
[18:46] <npcdoom> better have it
[18:46] <npcdoom> a cancel, save one? and a choose, close one?
[18:46] <astron> in the save dialogue or both?
[18:46] <npcdoom> both
[18:47] <npcdoom> its the same dialog
[18:47] <npcdoom> i mean in the template manager
[18:48] <astron> cant you have it one, but not the other?
[18:48] <npcdoom> you can
[18:48] <astron> then why not?
[18:49] <npcdoom> well we still need a way to close the dialog if its modal on gnome3
[18:50] <astron> but the template manager doesnt need to be modal...
[18:50] <astron> ...only the save dialogue
[18:50] <npcdoom> thats not possible xD
[18:50] <astron> is there no way to separate that without duplicating the whole code?
[18:51] <astron> :/
[18:51] <npcdoom> ummmm ill have to see
[18:54] <npcdoom> i just checked and i think its possible
[18:58] <npcdoom> but now that i think about it, is there a benefit to have 2 dialogs? one for save with just doing save and little browsing? and the other the manager?
[18:59] <astron> well, ultimately it would be cool to have the same view we have in the template manager also in the open/save dialogues
[18:59] <astron> but for now, i think it is better to have the template manager and the save dialogue very similar.
[19:00] <astron> but ultimately cedric/you should decide – i am just a designer
[19:04] <astron> sorry if i am confusing (just ask)
[19:16] <npcdoom> and what about styles?
[19:16] <npcdoom> have you thought about that?
[19:16] <astron> a bit, but i havent created a mockup yet
[19:16] <astron> sorry.
[19:17] <astron> btw, how dou feel about increasing the maximum height of thumbnails to 96px?
[19:18] <npcdoom> its fine by me
[19:18] <npcdoom> just a little bigger than it is now
[19:18] <astron> is there a simple way to do that?
[19:19] <astron> (i have made replacement icons in case we have no thumbnail (remote, broken files) and they are 96 px)
[19:20] <npcdoom> yes it shouldnt be no problem
[19:20] <astron> but currently it looks a little broken, because there are only ~two px at the top of those icons
[19:20] <npcdoom> but are those the same you made a patch before?
[19:20] <astron> well, i have to amend the patch
[19:20] <astron> now
[19:20] <astron> (icons are done, but havent gotten to it)
[19:21] <npcdoom> ok
[19:22] <astron> also, i feel that the selection background is a bit heavy – is there a way to add some alpha channel to that?
[19:22] <npcdoom> ill have to ask cedric about that
[19:22] <astron> (ie use the native colour, but increase transparency)
[19:24] <npcdoom> also, can you explain me the bug you told me about opening a template after setting it as default? i cant seem to reproduce it
[19:25] <astron> well, it is really simple – but maybe i "build wrong"
[19:26] <astron> but
1 open template dialogue
2 go to presentation tab
3 go into presentation backgrounds
4 set one of them as default (i tried abstract red)
5 close template manager
6 open impress
*crash*
[19:28] <astron> i havent tried reproducing on windows though
[19:28] <astron> sorry
[19:28] <astron> (that way i would have had an "official" build)
[19:30] <npcdoom> still nothing xD
[19:30] <npcdoom> i would have to try it on windows
[19:32] <astron> i will report it as a bug – maybe someone else can reproduce it
[19:43] <astron> ok. shall we close the (official part of the) chat then?
[19:43] <npcdoom> so for save as, i should add a save button and make it modal?
[19:43] <npcdoom> yes atm nothing new to add
[19:44] <astron> "add a cancel button" you mean?
[19:46] <npcdoom> cant remember the one you told me =P
[19:51] <astron> well there is already a save button
[19:54] <npcdoom> but it looks misplaced or its just me?
[19:55] <astron> you mean it should be at the bottom?
[19:55] <npcdoom> yeah
[19:55] <npcdoom> like the other save dialogs
[19:56] <astron> hm... i agree ... but i didnt make the design initially – so not sure...
[19:58] <astron> ill talk to mirek
[19:58] <astron> (when he's back)
[20:33] <issa> got to go
[20:34] <issa> (sorry I was too absent minded today)
[20:34] <issa> bye, enjoy your weekend
[20:43] <astron> npcdoom: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=63513
^ reported
[20:54] <astron> bye!