Design/Meetings/2013-04-20

    From The Document Foundation Wiki

    Attendees

    • issa
    • Computer1
    • mirek2
    • medieval

    Topics

    • Calc flat icons
    • UI EasyHacks
    • Color picker
    • Master slides custom animation

    Log

    [18:18] <medieval> hi
    [18:18] <@issa> hi
    [18:19] <medieval> how is the icon work going?
    [18:20] <@issa> I stopped for a while because I was busy but I'm back at it
    [18:20] <@issa> currently working on Calc icons
    [18:20] <medieval> ok
    [18:21] <@issa> https://raw.github.com/libodesign/flat-icons/master/sc_small.png
    [18:21] <@issa> maybe we should wait 15 mins to see if anyone else is coming?
    [18:22] <medieval> mirek just wrote a letter about UI design into mailing list
    [18:23] <medieval> long letter...i am reading it now
    [18:23] <@issa> I'll do that too
    [18:25] <medieval> I would look up the grid lines icon
    [18:25] <medieval> I think you should make border width smaller
    [18:29] <@issa> like this? http://i.imgur.com/TVam1Rr.png
    [18:30] <medieval> i think so
    [18:30] <@issa> I wasn't sure which one to use
    [18:30] <@issa> but the thick lines sort of represented the sheet itself rather than a bunch of cells
    [18:33] <medieval> https://www.dropbox.com/s/13i6zs7ivz93h49/ixe.png
    [18:34] <@issa> yes I've seen this one :p
    [18:36] <medieval> i think both show well what they are doing
    [18:36] <medieval> it is your decision there
    [18:37] <@issa> notice how the current one has shaded "header" cells
    [18:39] <medieval> ye
    [18:41] <medieval> (i am going to shop, back in half hour, i hope here is more people then)
    [18:41] <@issa> take your time
    [18:56] == mirek2 [4e66c274@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.102.194.116] has joined #libreoffice-design
    [18:56] <mirek2> hi guys
    [18:56] <@issa> hi mirek
    [18:57] <@issa> (medieval is away, he should be back in 15 mins)
    [18:57] <mirek2> have you already started the meeting?
    [18:58] <@issa> not yet
    [18:59] <@issa> I just told him I was working on Calc icons https://raw.github.com/libodesign/flat-icons/master/sc_small.png
    [19:00] <@issa> and he told me the last icon needed narrower borders like this http://i.imgur.com/TVam1Rr.png
    [19:02] <mirek2> I don't think I agree
    [19:02] <mirek2> actually, I think the icon's lines aren't thick enough
    [19:02] <mirek2> the icon doesn't really fit well with the rest of the theme
    [19:03] <@issa> I can't make the inner grid thicker
    [19:03] <@issa> and the outer border is already 2 px
    [19:03] <mirek2> what does the inner grid represent?
    [19:04] <mirek2> are there really 9 squares needed?
    [19:04] <@issa> the calc grid
    [19:04] <mirek2> the table icon fits them ideally, imho
    [19:04] <@issa> no, could do with four
    [19:04] <mirek2> that would do
    [19:05] <mirek2> you could have the lines thick, but dotted
    [19:05] <@issa> the table icon has 9 as well https://raw.github.com/libodesign/flat-icons/master/sw_small.png
    [19:05] <mirek2> yes, I was saying that it's possible to have thick lines, because the table icon has them
    [19:06] <mirek2> but we should definitely differentiate the cell icon from the table icon
    [19:07] <@issa> I guess so
    [19:11] <mirek2> I'm just wondering -- how did you get involved with LibreOffice?
    [19:12] <mirek2> what draws you to open source software? what motivates you to volunteer?
    [19:16] <@issa> well I'm not exactly volunteering
    [19:17] <mirek2> not even with the icons?
    [19:17] <@issa> I'm working at the national FOSS program here in Saudi Arabia
    [19:17] <mirek2> oh, ok, cool :)
    [19:17] <mirek2> could you tell me more about it?
    [19:18] <mirek2> is there a website where I could read about it?
    [19:18] <@issa> http://blog.documentfoundation.org/2012/09/13/libreoffice-localization-program-in-saudi-arabia-announced-to-enhance-arabic-language-related-features/
    [19:19] <@issa> we are supposed to work on right to left bugs, but working on design is more fun :p
    [19:20] <mirek2> :) any developers among you?
    [19:20] <mirek2> would be great if we could get some of our easyhacks fixed
    [19:20] <mirek2> could bring the UX forward
    [19:21] <medieval> hi, am back
    [19:21] <@issa> welcome back
    [19:21] <@issa> mirek2: we are all developers
    [19:22] <mirek2> oh, ok
    [19:22] <mirek2> do you think there'd be some interest in working on the easyhacks, then?
    [19:22] <@issa> we never added features though, only fixing things
    [19:23] <@issa> yes, we are interested on fixing the ui
    [19:23] <@issa> *in
    [19:23] <mirek2> once the code pointers are added, though, it should be relatively easy to do
    [19:23] <@issa> I guess so
    [19:23] <mirek2> :) great
    [19:25] <@issa> so lets go back to the icons, shall we?
    [19:25] <mirek2> sure, go ahead
    [19:26] <medieval> to me now width 2 px border the icon look like out of space, don't fit with rest of icons
    [19:27] <@issa> mirek was saying the opposite
    [19:27] <medieval> i read it
    [19:27] <medieval> i think its about the lighter frame color
    [19:29] <mirek2> I also don't think the proposed "borders" icon fits in
    [19:29] <mirek2> perhaps try both with a 4x4 grid?
    [19:30] <@issa> what about the merge icon, it wouldn't work in 4x4
    [19:31] <@issa> (the one next to the alignment buttons)
    [19:32] <mirek2> that can be done with a 3x3 grid
    [19:32] <mirek2> just like the icons we use now
    [19:33] <mirek2> or you could try a 3x2 grid
    [19:33] <@issa> so I should only change the borders icon?
    [19:34] <mirek2> as well as the grid lines icon
    [19:35] <mirek2> however, I think the problem with that icon was that it was highlighting an irrelevant aspect of the icon
    [19:35] <mirek2> in that icon, the cells are relevant, no the border
    [19:35] <mirek2> yet the border was thicker
    [19:36] <mirek2> it should be the other way around
    [19:36] <@issa> hmm
    [19:41] <mirek2> still there?
    [19:41] <mirek2> ignore that, I just needed to check if I wasn't disconnected
    [19:48] <mirek2> any progress?
    [19:53] <@issa> just a second
    [19:54] <@issa> http://i.imgur.com/jSfBQxe.png
    [19:55] <@issa> this is what would happen if we had the same icon as tables but without highlighting the border
    [19:55] <@issa> (the 4x4 grid couldn't be the same size obviously)
    [19:57] <mirek2> much better, imho
    [19:57] <mirek2> and I don't think there's need for the 4x4 icon
    [19:58] <mirek2> anymore, with the changes you made
    [20:02] <mirek2> medieval: what do you think?
    [20:03] <medieval> as I said before I like these: thicker borders
    [20:03] <medieval> thinner*
    [20:03] <mirek2> so you like the proposed icons?
    [20:03] <medieval> yes
    [20:05] <mirek2> me too
    [20:05] <mirek2> so I guess let's use those
    [20:05] <mirek2> should we move onto another topic?
    [20:07] <@issa> if the rest of the icons are ok then yes
    [20:07] <@issa> (there's these two also :p https://raw.github.com/libodesign/flat-icons/master/sc_small2.png )
    [20:07] <mirek2> just a note about the f(x) icon
    [20:08] <@issa> yeah?
    [20:08] <mirek2> I think the x should be smaller, to resemble a subscript
    [20:09] <@issa> it's not a subscript
    [20:10] <mirek2> hm, I'm trying to see where the symbolism comes from
    [20:10] <mirek2> the standard notation is f(x) if anything
    [20:10] <mirek2> in any case, I guess it's good as it is
    [20:11] <mirek2> in Excel, it's presented as a subscript: http://www.excel-formulas.com/mathematical-excel-formulas/images/excel-substruction-formula.gif
    [20:12] <@issa> but it looks too small when the parentheses are there
    [20:12] <mirek2> right
    [20:12] <@issa> still doesn't look like a subscript to me :p
    [20:12] <mirek2> it's probably best to keep it as is
    [20:12] <mirek2> ok :)
    [20:13] <@issa> also it's fx in Tango
    [20:13] <@issa> just one more question about these http://i.imgur.com/jSfBQxe.png
    [20:13] <@issa> which one for the show/hide grid icon?
    [20:14] <mirek2> I like the second one from the top
    [20:15] <mirek2> though any one from the three is fine IMHO
    [20:15] <medieval> second
    [20:15] <@issa> yes second seems to be the clearist
    [20:15] <medieval> third maybe
    [20:15] <medieval> first resembles borders
    [20:17] <@issa> now we can move on to another topic
    [20:18] <mirek2> alright
    [20:18] <mirek2> any topics you would suggest?
    [20:18] <mirek2> if not, we can talk about the color picker
    [20:18] <medieval> mirek i saw you wrote great letter to mailing list
    [20:19] <mirek2> what are your thoughts on it?
    [20:20] <@issa> I agree with most of it, although I haven't been keeping up with the thread
    [20:20] <medieval> i am in the same line with you
    [20:20] <medieval> mirek*
    [20:20] <mirek2> cool :) good to know we are in the same boat
    [20:21] <medieval> * Nonconformity. The ribbon is alien to all platforms except Windows. macOS requires a menu bar for each application.
    [20:21] <medieval> I think it hard to make ribbon to be used bt linux users
    [20:21] <medieval> is* by*
    [20:22] <mirek2> yes, sort of
    [20:22] <@issa> I don't think so, the menu bar will stay only the icons will be replaced
    [20:22] <mirek2> we would have to use our own UI elements and try to make them fit with the environment
    [20:22] <medieval> why don't you introduce you citrus UI to them, or as we agreed it is kind of our "goal"
    [20:23] <mirek2> actually, the UI proposal is quite outdated and not really presentable
    [20:23] <mirek2> it was more of a UI brainstorm/experiment than something to be presented as a vision
    [20:24] <medieval> ok
    [20:24] <mirek2> and rather than try to get people to agree with the vision, I'm just trying to encourage small changes
    [20:24] <@issa> so how shall we address the UI now? split it into specific problems with a whiteboard for each
    [20:24] <mirek2> well, here's how I imagine the roadmap:
    [20:24] <mirek2> it all depends on the EasyHacks
    [20:25] <mirek2> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Blueprints
    [20:26] <@issa> well I'd say the pretty hacks are a bit subjective
    [20:26] <medieval> is somebody here usng ubuntu?
    [20:26] <mirek2> I'm on a borrowed laptop using macOS
    [20:26] <@issa> medieval: I do, but not atm
    [20:26] <mirek2> on my own netbook that's being repaired, I have elementary
    [20:26] <mirek2> why do you ask?
    [20:26] <medieval> is the hud usable?
    [20:27] <medieval> (i use eOS and win7 myself)
    [20:27] <mirek2> somewhat usable, but not discoverable
    [20:27] <@issa> what do you mean? the shell?
    [20:27] <medieval> it would be nice addition
    [20:27] <mirek2> it would
    [20:27] <medieval> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_WW-DHqR3c
    [20:27] <mirek2> macOS has a similar feature
    [20:28] <mirek2> only in the help menu
    [20:28] <mirek2> also works for all apps with a menu bar
    [20:28] <@issa> oh, didn't know they call it that
    [20:28] <@issa> yes I think that's why menus aren't going anywhere
    [20:28] <mirek2> www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IP__mFL7d4
    [20:29] <mirek2> I think they are going away
    [20:29] <mirek2> Canonical is actually planning to broaden the scope of the HUD outside of menus
    [20:30] <@issa> well not in the near future
    [20:30] <medieval> issa, how much to you know about different widget toolkits?
    [20:30] <medieval> or mirek
    [20:31] <mirek2> why do you ask?
    [20:31] <mirek2> we can't really move to GTK or Qt yet -- that would be too much effort
    [20:32] <medieval> but doesn't the effort pay itself?
    [20:32] <mirek2> not really, at least from my talks with the devs
    [20:32] <mirek2> basically, I was told that it would take a year of work from every dev working on LibreOffice
    [20:32] <mirek2> all work would be suspended for a year
    [20:33] <mirek2> whereas VCL, though not excellent, is still workable
    [20:33] <mirek2> and considerably easier to just maintain
    [20:33] <@issa> medieval: I know pretty much nothing
    [20:33] <medieval> ok
    [20:34] <mirek2> however, as part of the effort to bring LibO to Android and iOS, the front-end is being separated from the back-end
    [20:35] <mirek2> which means that, hopefully, in the not-so-distant future, it might not be so hard to create a custom UI for editing documents using any desired toolkit
    [20:36] <mirek2> getting back to the topic of menus: LibreOffice is almost definitely keeping its menus, but, in the future, it might hopefully be possible to hide them
    [20:37] <mirek2> and that should be the default for platforms like elementary and of course for touch-first operating systems, which discourage the use of menus
    [20:38] <@issa> great
    [20:38] <medieval> (asking about hud, I wated to know if it is working with libreoffice)
    [20:39] <mirek2> I assume it will work with versions that integrate with Ubuntu's application menus
    [20:39] <mirek2> it works on macOS
    [20:39] <@issa> seems like it http://iloveubuntu.net/pictures_me/libreoffice%203.6.2%20hud%20support1.png
    [20:39] <medieval> ok
    [20:40] <medieval> link doesen't open
    [20:41] <medieval> but point taken
    [20:41] <@issa> I dunno, one of the first google images results
    [20:42] <mirek2> www.iloveubuntu.net/libreoffice-362-landed-ubuntu-1210-full-hud-support-and-strengthened-appmenu
    [20:43] <mirek2> we got a bit off topic -- should I still flesh out what I imagine to be the roadmap, or should we move onto another topic?
    [20:43] <@issa> mirek2: flesh out the roadmap
    [20:43] <medieval> (i think i need to move to unity again which i don't like)
    [20:44] <mirek2> roadmap:
    [20:44] <mirek2> "Page selection" coupled with "Page toolbar" will allow users to forgo using the Page dialog for the most common page formatting
    [20:44] <@issa> (medieval: I would like to implement the hud in Gnome one day)
    [20:45] <@issa> sounds great
    [20:45] <mirek2> "Hidden Items Menu" would allow us to streamline toolbars while adding more commands
    [20:46] <@issa> ok
    [20:46] <mirek2> (i.e. narrow down the selection of the icons shown by default, add more to the menus)
    [20:47] <mirek2> the menu could include a button to the relevant dialog, thus making going through the menus less necessary
    [20:48] <medieval> (office have  it from 2003?)
    [20:48] <mirek2> that menu, along with right-aligned toolbars, would allow us to make something similar to Chrome's Tools menu or elementary's appmenu
    [20:48] <mirek2> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Toolbars#Proposal_by_Mirek2
    [20:49] <mirek2> medieval: really? are you sure that the Office implementation doesn't just toggle the visible buttons?
    [20:50] <medieval> (i don't 2003 now, not sure)
    [20:50] <mirek2> ok
    [20:51] <mirek2> in any case, this AppMenu would eventually allow the user to forego the menubar altogether
    [20:51] <mirek2> and hide it, thus fitting into platforms that discourage against the use of menus
    [20:51] <medieval> (i think it have the same system as we have now)
    [20:52] <mirek2> oh, ok
    [20:52] <@issa> it's still would be weird having new open etc on the far right
    [20:53] <mirek2> well, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it, I guess
    [20:53] <@issa> perhaps
    [20:53] <mirek2> that's the problem with trying to make any UI changes
    [20:53] <mirek2> the change is well-reasoned, though
    [20:53] <@issa> true
    [20:53] <mirek2> and for you, it would be on the far left
    [20:53] <mirek2> (for RTL languages, I mean)
    [20:54] <@issa> I don't actually use RTL interfaces
    [20:54] <mirek2> oh, alright
    [20:54] <mirek2> so, as I see it, those four are the most important EasyHacks
    [20:54] <@issa> also I guess deciding what items goes there would be another task for later
    [20:54] <mirek2> the rest is just smoothing out the experience
    [20:54] <mirek2> yes
    [20:55] <mirek2> that's another reason why I'm avoiding proposing a whole UI change
    [20:55] <mirek2> people get caught up in the nitty-gritty
    [20:55] <@issa> just a second
    [20:55] <@issa> I don't really agree with the right-aligned toolbars
    [20:55] <@issa> they are pretty confusing
    [20:56] <mirek2> how so?
    [20:56] <@issa> all toolbars are left-aligned, you want to us to have both?
    [20:57] <medieval> yes
    [20:57] <medieval> as i understand
    [20:57] <medieval> ?
    [20:57] <mirek2> yes, sort of
    [20:58] <mirek2> they wouldn't be as flexible, though
    [20:58] <mirek2> i.e. they would always stick to the side
    [20:58] <mirek2> you wouldn't be able to move them freely along the bar as you can with left-aligned toolbars
    [20:58] <mirek2> which I would argue is a good thing -- it doesn't allow you to create gaps
    [20:59] <mirek2> I don't think it's good that we allow gaps with the current toolbars
    [20:59] <@issa> I prefer office like "special" toolbar
    [21:00] <mirek2> that would be unnecessarily complex, IMHO
    [21:00] <@issa> http://www.addintools.com/documents/excel/images/paste-sepcial/shot-excel-paste-special-toolbar-698-218.png
    [21:00] <mirek2> the easiest way to implement right-aligned toolbars, as Kendy told me, would be to simply set the toolbar position to some kind of large number
    [21:00] <@issa> the ones on top next to the program icon
    [21:00] <mirek2> so that it's always at the right
    [21:01] <mirek2> issa: yes, as I said, unnecessarily complex
    [21:01] <@issa> yes but there aren't clear distinction between them and the normal icons
    [21:01] <mirek2> there shouldn't be
    [21:01] <mirek2> they are normal icons
    [21:01] <@issa> but they aren't in a normal toolbar
    [21:01] <mirek2> only the toolbar sticks to the right of the window
    [21:01] <mirek2> it is a normal toolbar
    [21:01] <mirek2> it just sticks to the right of the window
    [21:02] <mirek2> you're used to icons aligned to the right from Chrome or Firefox, right?
    [21:02] <@issa> not when there are icons aligned to the left next to them
    [21:02] <mirek2> LibreOffice can't handle flexible spaces, so this is the next best thing
    [21:03] <mirek2> issa: icons are not aligned to the left next to them
    [21:03] <mirek2> it's just the toolbar that is always at the right
    [21:03] <mirek2> the contents are not affected
    [21:03] <@issa> I know
    [21:03] <@issa> but there aren't clear visual distinction between toolbars
    [21:03] <mirek2> why should there be?
    [21:04] <mirek2> there is a separator at the beginning of each toolbar
    [21:04] <@issa> I dunno they just feel wrong
    [21:05] <@issa> I think having a simple difference as a different background (ala office icons) would help
    [21:05] <@issa> *as simple a
    [21:05] <mirek2> but these toolbars are normal toolbars
    [21:05] <@issa> they are sticky toolbars
    [21:06] <@issa> or presistant toolbars
    [21:06] <mirek2> they're meant not to stick out
    [21:06] <mirek2> they're not persistent
    [21:06] <mirek2> they can be removed
    [21:06] <@issa> really? why do we need them then?
    [21:08] <mirek2> it boils down to spacial orientation and symmetry
    [21:08] <mirek2> when all toolbars are left-aligned, there's a bunch of icons to the left and none to the right
    [21:08] <mirek2> it makes the left side feel heavy and noisy, whereas the right side feel empty
    [21:08] <@issa> oh
    [21:09] <@issa> then this is the wrong solution to the problem
    [21:09] <mirek2> what is the right solution?
    [21:09] <@issa> justifying icons is the right solution
    [21:09] <mirek2> how would that work?
    [21:09] <@issa> (as in equal space between icons)
    [21:10] <mirek2> I disagree
    [21:10] <mirek2> then you're faced with spread out icons on large monitors
    [21:10] <mirek2> and you can no longer take advantage of your muscle memory when moving between commands
    [21:11] <mirek2> as the space between commands keeps changing
    [21:11] <@issa> true
    [21:11] <@issa> but still I don't think that's the solution
    [21:11] <mirek2> it would also significantly alter the UI when a contextual toolbar would appear
    [21:11] <mirek2> other applications do it
    [21:11] <@issa> maybe the problem just isn't there
    [21:11] <mirek2> it's quite common in elementary http://elementary-art.deviantart.com/
    [21:12] <mirek2> what do you think about e.g. http://spiceofdesign.deviantart.com/art/Writer-Concept-351501580?q=favby%3Aelementary-art%2F45954099&qo=3 ?
    [21:12] <mirek2> where issa some icons are on the right, some on the left
    [21:13] <mirek2> or about iWork pages: http://images.appleinsider.com/new-iwork-070807-1.png ?
    [21:13] <@issa> it's uncomfortable
    [21:13] <mirek2> here's a more current screen: http://www.wyodor.net/_Demo/MyHouse/Pages_Landschap_01.png
    [21:13] <@issa> eOS seems to have them in the titlebar which is even more unorthodox
    [21:13] <mirek2> really? well, you wouldn't be required to use them
    [21:14] <mirek2> issa: not right now
    [21:14] <mirek2> though they're planning to
    [21:14] <@issa> iWork seems to have the same problem as justification
    [21:14] <mirek2> I posted an older version
    [21:14] <@issa> I guess we should have justification on toobars level then
    [21:14] <mirek2> the newer one aligns left, center, and right
    [21:15] <mirek2> here's a screenshot from an actual elementary app: http://www.linux-ai.com/wp-content/uploads/images/elementary%20OS%20/elementary-luna-scratch-text-editor.png
    [21:15] <@issa> the settings makes sense, the other one not so much
    [21:15] <mirek2> also, iWork can afford to justify toolbars, as they don't change and aren't customizable
    [21:16] <mirek2> what browser are you using, btw?
    [21:16] <@issa> firefox
    [21:16] <mirek2> basically any browser I can think of right now has some buttons aligned to the right
    [21:17] <mirek2> firefox has the bookmarks and home buttons there
    [21:17] <@issa> let me look up the default ui
    [21:18] <@issa> well seems like all icons are right-aligned
    [21:18] <mirek2> it also plans to move the application menu to the right https://wiki.mozilla.org/Features/Desktop/Panel_Menu
    [21:19] <mirek2> issa: previous and next are left-aligned
    [21:19] <@issa> previous and next are merged into the address bar
    [21:19] <mirek2> on non-Linux platforms
    [21:20] <mirek2> on Linux, they appear as toolbar icons
    [21:21] <@issa> I don't use the default interface but if you remove the address bar wouldn't everything move to the left?
    [21:21] <mirek2> on Android, it's a standard to have right-aligned icons
    [21:22] <mirek2> issa: well, Firefox uses flexible spacing and a flexible address bar
    [21:22] <mirek2> it doesn't split up icons into individual toolbars, but rather has a single toolbar
    [21:22] <@issa> then it's not a fair comparison
    [21:22] <mirek2> you can align items to the right by adding a flexible space
    [21:22] <@issa> also I removed the address bar and the icons all went to the left
    [21:22] <mirek2> I wasn't comparing the implementation, I was comparing the layout
    [21:22] <@issa> so technically nothing is aligned to the right
    [21:23] <@issa> you can't compare the layout
    [21:23] <@issa> libo has tens of icons
    [21:23] <mirek2> my point being that right-aligned icons are quite normal
    [21:23] <@issa> I disagree
    [21:24] <@issa> all I understand from your right aligned mockup is that you want that toolbar to stick out
    [21:25] <mirek2> no, I want it to be in a separate area from the contextual toolbar
    [21:25] <mirek2> the idea is that, for commands relating to the selection, the user will move his eyes and mouse to the left
    [21:26] <@issa> I know that now, but that isn't what I get from the mockup
    [21:26] <mirek2> for commands relating to the document or application as a whole, static commands, the user will move his eyes to the right
    [21:26] <mirek2> issa: sure, the mockup was done hastily and on a netbook
    [21:26] <@issa> it's the idea itself
    [21:27] <@issa> also why would the left-aligned icons be below the right-aligned ones?
    [21:27] <@issa> aren't you giving them priority that way?
    [21:27] <mirek2> that's another topic
    [21:28] <mirek2> I would prefer to give them priority, but possibly the best solution would be to allow assigning a z-order to toolbars
    [21:28] <@issa> mirek2: that would make them even more confusing
    [21:28] <@issa> I think we need to discuss the topic as a problem and solution in the mailing list
    [21:28] <mirek2> or perhaps to just give toolbars equal space
    [21:29] <mirek2> issa: the initial implementation would really be just as simple as positioning the toolbar to the far right
    [21:30] <mirek2> sure, feel free to start a mailing list thread
    [21:30] <@issa> mirek2: still we should implement it if people agree with it
    [21:31] <@issa> *we should only
    [21:31] <mirek2> right
    [21:31] <@issa> great, sorry if I sounded harsh :)
    [21:31] <mirek2> no worries :)
    [21:31] <mirek2> should we move to another topic?
    [21:31] <mirek2> color picker, perhaps?
    [21:32] <@issa> mirek2: maybe you should post the roadmap first and then I reply to it
    [21:33] <@issa> sure
    [21:33] <mirek2> issa: I thought we were only talking about the right-aligned toolbars?
    [21:33] <mirek2> the EasyHacks were already approved once, several weeks ago
    [21:34] <mirek2> they don't come just from me, we had a general discussion about EasyHacks and the proposed ones are what we agreed on
    [21:34] <mirek2> they were also approved by a dev I met with
    [21:34] <mirek2> Kendy, a LibreOffice dev
    [21:35] <mirek2> so I'd prefer not to have to reevaluate all of them again...
    [21:36] <@issa> mirek2: ok
    [21:37] <mirek2> but I'm definitely OK with a thread or two about a specific EasyHack
    [21:38] <mirek2> I hope that didn't sound too harsh
    [21:39] <mirek2> new topic?
    [21:39] <mirek2> color picker?
    [21:39] <mirek2> or other suggestions?
    [21:40] <@issa> color picker is good
    [21:40] <@issa> mirek2: it's alright
    [21:40] <@issa> mirek2: I meant just posting the roadmap first
    [21:42] <mirek2> the thing is, it's not an official roadmap and LibO's UI may take any turn
    [21:42] <mirek2> this was just something I imagine
    [21:42] <mirek2> I might post it, we'll see...
    [21:42] <@issa> yes you need to propose it as a roadmap
    [21:42] <@issa> (as in not keep it just in here)
    [21:43] <mirek2> I'll think about it
    [21:43] <mirek2> I certainly don't want to sound like it's this roadmap or no roadmap
    [21:43] <mirek2> I want everyone to have a say
    [21:44] <mirek2> not to force people to a roadmap set out by me
    [21:44] <@issa> yeah you have to work on phrasing it
    [21:44] <mirek2> yeah, I'll think about it
    [21:45] <mirek2> I'd also like to avoid seeming like an unnecessary thought piece that doesn't belong on the ML
    [21:45] <mirek2> I want it to have a point
    [21:45] <mirek2> ...
    [21:45] <mirek2> in any case, color picker
    [21:45] <mirek2> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Color_Picker
    [21:45] <@issa> yes go on
    [21:45] <mirek2> as I said on the ML, I'm not happy with certain aspects of the current tentative design
    [21:47] <mirek2> they should go on "Custom colors", where the rest of the "static" colors are
    [21:47] <mirek2> Recent colors shouldn't go on the "Theme colors" panel, as, unlike theme colors, they are not variable
    [21:47] <mirek2> right?
    [21:47] <@issa> umm no
    [21:47] <@issa> they should be there for ease of access
    [21:47] <@issa> maybe on a different panel below the theme colors
    [21:48] <@issa> (have a seperator between them)
    [21:48] <mirek2> then we have a problem in separating out static colors
    [21:48] <mirek2> the thing is, the Recent colors won't include Theme colors
    [21:48] <@issa> yes
    [21:48] <@issa> but don't look at it this way
    [21:49] <mirek2> and if you don't use the Custom colors tab, you won't ever see anything there
    [21:49] <@issa> look at it as basic colors and advance colors
    [21:49] <mirek2> if, on the other hand, you do use that panel, you will want to see the recent colors that you've used before
    [21:49] <@issa> basic colors should include: automatic, theme colors and recent colors
    [21:49] <mirek2> issa: that's not what is is at all
    [21:50] <mirek2> you use theme colors if you want your document to follow a certain theme
    [21:50] <mirek2> you use custom colors when you need things to have a constant color
    [21:50] <@issa> or if you are simply using the default settings
    [21:50] <mirek2> e.g. in Draw you are likely to keep the Custom colors panel open, whereas in Writer, you are likely to keep the Theme one open
    [21:51] <mirek2> by default, the picker should open in the panel you were in last
    [21:52] <@issa> then the default custom colors panel tab should be the standard palette tab
    [21:52] <mirek2> also consider that a user who uses custom colors frequently and probably has that panel by default would really miss a recent colors section
    [21:53] <mirek2> issa: I guess that could be done, but why?
    [21:53] <mirek2> if you're a designer, you'll likely want to be able to refine your colors
    [21:53] <@issa> what if I want that one certain custom color?
    [21:54] <@issa> actually scratch that, what if I want to use that one certain custom color alongside my theme colors?
    [21:54] <mirek2> I'm not saying we should remove the Palette tab, I'm just not sure if that's a good default
    [21:55] <@issa> then we'll need the recent colors on the normal or theme panel
    [21:55] <mirek2> we should definitely save the last open tab in the panel, though, so that the user gets back to the tab he uses
    [21:55] <@issa> lets say my organization uses a fully green theme
    [21:55] <mirek2> issa: why? recent colors only make sense once you've used the custom colors panel anyway
    [21:56] <mirek2> issa: ok
    [21:56] <@issa> but I have to use red to convey errors or highlight things
    [21:56] <@issa> I won't need any other color besides red and the theme
    [21:56] <mirek2> that runs a bit counter to the idea of a theme
    [21:56] <@issa> do I have to switch panels everytime?
    [21:56] <@issa> well this will happen a lot, most people would never change the theme
    [21:57] <mirek2> a theme needs to have contrasting colors
    [21:57] <@issa> still, regardless of how contrasting the colors are sometimes you just need red
    [21:58] <mirek2> theme colors and static colors have different use cases
    [21:59] <mirek2> theme colors you use when the color itself isn't relevant
    [21:59] <mirek2> for text, for charts, etc.
    [21:59] <mirek2> static colors you use when you're drawing something
    [21:59] <mirek2> an apple, a tree, a building
    [22:00] <mirek2> unless you're constantly writing and drawing, though, I doubt you'll need to switch between the two very often
    [22:00] <mirek2> it's certainly not a good idea to mix static and theme colors
    [22:00] <@issa> what if I want to add a heart shape and make it red?
    [22:01] <@issa> it's either that or give me quick access to the colors I specifically chose
    [22:01] <mirek2> if these shapes are meant to fit stylistically into the document, you should use a theme with a red color
    [22:01] <@issa> no, I'm using my organization theme which has contrasting colors but not red
    [22:01] <mirek2> if red itself is the important factor, no matter what the document looks like, you should use static red
    [22:02] <@issa> thus I need to quickly access it
    [22:02] <mirek2> however, you should not mix theme colors and custom colors
    [22:02] <mirek2> e.g. if you put text into that red heart, make sure it also uses a static color
    [22:02] <@issa> but people will do that
    [22:02] <mirek2> if you use a theme color for that and later on change the theme, that text might be unreadable later
    [22:03] <@issa> so give me quick access to my static colors
    [22:03] <mirek2> issa: we should certainly discourage it
    [22:03] <mirek2> issa: but you have quick access to static colors
    [22:03] <mirek2> though only when you're not working with theme colors
    [22:04] <mirek2> as it's dangerous to mix the two and therefore we should discourage it
    [22:04] <@issa> imagine a scenario where I'm 100 pages into a document
    [22:04] <mirek2> I explained why it's dangerous above
    [22:04] <mirek2> right
    [22:04] <@issa> and I need to use red in the next 20 pages
    [22:04] <@issa> I wouldn't change the theme
    [22:04] <@issa> but I would need red next to my theme colors
    [22:05] <mirek2> if red isn't your theme color, I don't see why you'd need to create such an inconsistency
    [22:06] <mirek2> it would stick out like a sore thumb
    [22:06] <mirek2> you do have 6 accent colors to choose from -- why red?
    [22:06] <@issa> because I'm talking about the color red
    [22:06] <@issa> or simply drawing figures including hearts
    [22:07] <mirek2> let me give a counter-example:
    [22:07] <mirek2> let's say you have used red in those 20 pages that's not in the theme colors
    [22:07] <mirek2> and you intended for red to be distinct from the theme colors
    [22:08] <mirek2> your company then changes its theme colors and you automatically retheme the document
    [22:08] <mirek2> unfortunately, those new colors contain red, meaning the intended contrast is lost
    [22:08] <mirek2> and the red has lost its function
    [22:08] <mirek2> thus, if you use it to highlight errors, that won't be visible anymore
    [22:09] <mirek2> what the correct practice would be is to have a special theme color for errors
    [22:09] <@issa> no I didn't use it for the contrast, I just wanted it to be red for whatever reason
    [22:09] <mirek2> and if you're drawing, like you said above, you should only use custom colors
    [22:10] <@issa> what if I'm constantly drawing and formatting text/charts?
    [22:10] <mirek2> imagine if the blue sky you had in your drawing turned red because you changed the theme
    [22:10] <@issa> no no no
    [22:10] <@issa> I'm not saying have red as part of the theme
    [22:10] <@issa> just make it appear there
    [22:10] <mirek2> I know
    [22:11] <mirek2> and I'm saying it's dangerous to mix theme colors and custom colors
    [22:11] <@issa> it should be clearly labeled as a custom color or non-theme color
    [22:11] <mirek2> it doesn't matter though
    [22:12] <mirek2> it just encourages bad habits if it's on one panel
    [22:12] <mirek2> say you draw a person using a theme color and then, within him, a heart with a custom red color
    [22:13] <mirek2> if you then change the theme and the theme color you happened to use for the person turns red, it will render the heart invisible
    [22:14] <mirek2> if you mix theme and custom colors in text, a theme color you use for mistakes could later be the same color as the custom color you used for text
    [22:14] <mirek2> thus making it appear that text is a mistake
    [22:14] <@issa> these are the users problems
    [22:15] <mirek2> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Principles
    [22:15] <mirek2> ux-error-prevention
    [22:15] <mirek2> "Interfaces should proactively try to prevent errors from happening."
    [22:15] <mirek2> we should not encourage bad practices
    [22:15] <@issa> hmmm
    [22:16] <@issa> but that is quite annoying
    [22:16] <mirek2> if a person really needs to use a custom color among theme colors, he can resort to styles
    [22:16] <mirek2> use a custom color there
    [22:16] <mirek2> and since it is a single custom color, that should be the best way to do it
    [22:17] <mirek2> if it was a bunch of custom colors, the Custom color view would fit better with the user's needs
    [22:17] <@issa> hmm
    [22:18] <medieval> issa: recent colors?
    [22:18] <@issa> I guess that person should just use the standard palette in the custom colors
    [22:19] <mirek2> yeah, definitely
    [22:20] <@issa> although I still think most people wouldn't get that easily
    [22:20] <mirek2> we just need to communicate the point of themes better
    [22:21] <mirek2> I think most people don't understand that one can change themes
    [22:21] <mirek2> MS Office does a very poor job, as it's much harder to access custom colors than theme colors
    [22:21] <@issa> even if they do most people won't bother to
    [22:21] <@issa> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:I_colorpicker.png
    [22:22] <mirek2> therefore even artists can resort to theme colors, even though they want custom ones
    [22:22] <@issa> my idea was to have both standard and theme close to each other
    [22:22] <mirek2> that would eliminate precise custom colors, though
    [22:22] <mirek2> which is something I'd really hate to do
    [22:23] <mirek2> I mean, make it harder to use, not eliminate
    [22:23] <@issa> not really
    [22:23] <@issa> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:I_colorpicker2.png
    [22:23] <mirek2> given that custom colors are meant mostly for drawings, precise control is quite important
    [22:23] <@issa> you can still change the panel
    [22:23] <@issa> same way it's currently in the tentative design
    [22:25] <mirek2> that's a bit confusing, though
    [22:25] <mirek2> as "more colors" gets rid of theme colors
    [22:25] <mirek2> not really something I would expect
    [22:26] <mirek2> in that regard, I prefer the current tentative design
    [22:26] <mirek2> except for the "Recent colors" area, it's also much clearer as to which colors are custom and which are theme colors
    [22:27] <mirek2> in any case, have we agreed on having recent colors in "Custom colors"?
    [22:30] <mirek2> perhaps we should leave the conversation for next week?
    [22:31] <medieval> yes
    [22:31] <@issa> yes probably
    [22:31] <@issa> (sorry was a bit busy(
    [22:32] <mirek2> alright
    [22:32] <@issa> mirek2: more colors should've been custom colors anyway
    [22:32] <@issa> (which always gets rid of theme colors)
    [22:33] <mirek2> ok, but then you have the standard palette in two areas
    [22:33] <mirek2> the palette picker and the default area
    [22:34] <mirek2> IMO, that makes things unnecessarily complex
    [22:34] <mirek2> and, honestly, I can't really imagine a realistic scenario when you would need to constantly switch between custom and theme colors
    [22:35] <mirek2> anyway, let's leave it for next week
    [22:35] <@issa> ok
    [22:35] <mirek2> does one of you want to upload the log?
    [22:35] == Computer1_ [~computer1@117.239.204.226] has joined #libreoffice-design
    [22:35] <mirek2> hi computer :)
    [22:36] <mirek2> it seems as though we are just ending
    [22:36] <mirek2> unless there's something you'd like to talk about
    [22:37] <Computer1_> Hey!
    [22:38] <Computer1_> i am working on fdo#41572...and i wanted some guidance regarding the UI part to it...
    [22:38] <Computer1_> if its convinient for you!
    [22:38] <mirek2> sure
    [22:38] <mirek2> coul you provide a link to the bug?
    [22:39] <mirek2> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41572
    [22:40] <Computer1_> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41572
    [22:40] <Computer1_> and yeah it would be of great help to me as well as on your side if someone can have a look at their emails,i had sent a detailed email regarding the help i need.
    [22:40] <Computer1_> my email id is : janit92 at gmail.com
    [22:44] <mirek2> I'm not sure I understand your proposal
    [22:45] <Computer1_> what proposal..? :/
    [22:45] <mirek2> in "[Libreoffice-ux-advise] Help to make it possible to add custom animation to Master Slides."
    [22:45] <mirek2> the last bullet point
    [22:45] <Computer1_> yeah wait
    [22:46] <mirek2> with regards to the code-related things, I can't help you
    [22:46] <mirek2> you should try libreoffice-dev for that
    [22:46] <Computer1_> yeah
    [22:47] <mirek2> or what exactly do you need help with?
    [22:47] <Computer1_> oh yeah the last bullet point :
    [22:47] <Computer1_> we can provide users with a toolbox or popup...which has all the slide no's and the no. of textboxes they have..
    [22:48] <Computer1_> we can select the details of them and choose the CustomAnimation effect we decide to add
    [22:48] <mirek2> in the master?
    [22:48] <mirek2> so, say, the 3rd text box on the tenth slide would have a specific animation?
    [22:50] <mirek2> I probably just misunderstood what the proposal is
    [22:52] <mirek2> Computer1_: are you still there?
    [22:52] <Computer1_> yeah
    [22:53] <Computer1_> morek2 : your are right
    [22:53] == Computer1_ has changed nick to Computer1
    [22:54] <mirek2> I can't imagine any use case for that
    [22:56] <mirek2> if a user needs that functionality, it's better to do simply using custom animations
    [22:56] <mirek2> not using master slides
    [22:56] <Computer1> look right now the problem is that we arent able to assign custom animation to all the slides at one go.
    [22:56] <mirek2> right
    [22:56] <Computer1> that is what the fdo#41572 says
    [22:56] <Computer1> :P
    [22:56] <mirek2> yup
    [22:57] <mirek2> and you want feedback on your feature suggestion or a suggestion on what the UI should be for adding animations to elements in master slides?
    [22:58] <Computer1> yeah on the first one
    [22:58] <mirek2> well, as I said, I can't imagine a use case
    [22:59] <mirek2> especially as users tend to move slides and objects around
    [22:59] <mirek2> if you want a specific animation for a certain kind of element, that would be a better fit for styles
    [23:00] <medieval> if i understand the point is to change all animations in one place? as we change theme in maste slide?
    [23:02] <Computer1> medieval : that is what is missing and i am planning to work on the code to fix it
    [23:02] <Computer1> :)
    [23:02] <medieval> then i see a lot of use cases
    [23:03] <medieval> mirek2?
    [23:04] <mirek2> I see a lot of use-cases for that, yes
    [23:04] <mirek2> I don't see use-cases for specifying a certain object to apply that animation to in the master
    [23:04] <mirek2> as proposed in "[Libreoffice-ux-advise] Help to make it possible to add custom animation to Master Slides."
    [23:05] <mirek2> which is what I though the conversation was about?
    [23:05] <Computer1> mirek2 : medieval : i am sure we can do that...but i have just proposed an additional feature to the same issue which i am sure can ease up stuff for users
    [23:05] <medieval> why not add these same way as we add them to specific slide?
    [23:06] <medieval> (from right pane?)
    [23:06] <Computer1> yeah we can do that too....so that is what i was asking----suggestions
    [23:07] <medieval> because changing other aspects of themes work same way - just changing them in master slide
    [23:07] <mirek2> I'm still confused
    [23:08] <mirek2> you're asking where to set these animations from?
    [23:08] <medieval> yes
    [23:08] <mirek2> in that case, I agree with medieval
    [23:10] <Computer1> mirek2 : i think u r running a different story :/
    [23:12] <mirek2> sorry
    [23:12] <mirek2> I understand the general proposal
    [23:12] <mirek2> but I don't agree with the last point on your ML thread
    [23:12] <mirek2> "We can provide something like a popup/box,etc. that can provide a user to select the slide no. as well as the textbox no. upon which he/she wants to apply the corresponding CustomAnimation Effect."
    [23:14] <mirek2> the master slide workflow should be to select an element, then apply an animation effect to it in the animation pane
    [23:14] <Computer1> mirek2 : why not..?
    [23:15] <mirek2> just like one would do with elements in regular slides
    [23:15] <Computer1> mirek2 : can u please guide me if there is already a feature of that sort..!
    [23:16] <mirek2> I don't think there is for master slides
    [23:17] <Computer1> mirek2 : the fdo#41572 talks about giving the same animation to all the textboxes in all the slides at one go right..?
    [23:18] <mirek2> oh, I misunderstood it as giving an animation to certain master slide elements in one go
    [23:19] <Computer1> nope...the first comment itself states the purpose for the bug.
    [23:24] <mirek2> ok
    [23:25] <mirek2> then I'm with medieval on this one
    [23:29] <mirek2> I guess that's all you needed?
    [23:29] <Computer1> hmmm...because presently it doesnt give the animation to "all" the textboxes in "all" the slides
    [23:30] <mirek2> I'm sorry guys, I really have to go
    [23:30] <mirek2> issa, medieval, I hope one of you can upload the log
    [23:31] <mirek2> see you next week :)
    [23:31] <@issa> mirek2: sure
    [23:31] <@issa> see you
    [23:31] <mirek2> bye