Design/Meetings/2013-05-11

From The Document Foundation Wiki
Jump to: navigation, search

Attendees

  • astron
  • issa
  • mafiaz
  • mirek2
  • samuel_m

Topics

  • Photo Album Dialog
  • Flat Icons
  • Copying Styles from Templates/Documents

Log

[16:00] <astron> hi all
[16:00] <mirek2> hi astron
[16:00] <mirek2> hi issa
[16:01] <mirek2> ESC update while we're waiting for others?
[16:01] <astron> sorry .. didnt do it via mail
[16:02] <astron> uhm ... but anyway, i cant tell much more than you could already glean from the mail about the button ordering i wrote to ux-advise
[16:02] <astron> (there is more, but that is private)
[16:02] <astron> (actually just one more topic)
[16:03] <mirek2> oh, ok
[16:03] <astron> also, i havent been able to attend last week
[16:03] <astron> in fact it is getting a bit hard to attend for me...
[16:04] <mirek2> hm... I can't attend either at that time
[16:05] <astron> so it will remain as is ... for now
[16:05] <@issa> hi all
[16:05] <astron> hi
[16:06] <mirek2> hello
[16:06] <@issa> was there a time change or something?
[16:07] <astron> issa, were using gmt
[16:08] <astron> so, the local times will change between summer & winter
[16:08] == samuel_m [~samuel@dslb-088-069-015-180.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #libreoffice-design
[16:09] <samuel_m> Hi, has the Design Chat already begun?
[16:09] <mirek2> it has just begun
[16:10] <mirek2> so, first order of business? is there anything you'd like to discuss?
[16:11] <@issa> astron: I'm a bit a confused, currently it is the time we started in winter
[16:11] <samuel_m> I'd have some questions concerning the Photo Album Dialog
[16:11] <mirek2> issa: the chat is always at 16:00 UTC
[16:12] <mirek2> samuel_m: go ahead
[16:13] <samuel_m> http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Streamlining-the-Photo-Album-Creator-tp4054397p4055364.html
[16:13] <@issa> mirek2: I know
[16:13] <samuel_m> These are suggestions from Mattias
[16:13] <samuel_m> 1st he suggests to remove the "Text Slides"
[16:14] <astron> issa: we often started late for one reason or another
[16:14] <samuel_m> All that does at the moment is to insert an empty slide
[16:14] <samuel_m> Which you could also do manually after inserting the photos
[16:15] <astron> is someone still developing that?
[16:15] <astron> (the text slides feature?)
[16:16] <samuel_m> No, I don't think so. Gergö didn't continue to work on it
[16:17] <astron> well, then i guess id agree with mattias
[16:17] <astron> also, you could then rename the insert photo slide button to a simple "add..." and put it at the bottom
[16:17] <astron> => much cleaner
[16:17] <mirek2> +1
[16:18] <samuel_m> Ok, I would also prefer that.
[16:19] <samuel_m> Any objections against putting the "Insert Images" below the other buttons below the listbox?
[16:20] <mirek2> none from me
[16:21] <samuel_m> Ok
[16:21] <samuel_m> Then he suggested to remove the Slide Layout "1 Image with Title"
[16:23] <samuel_m> Btw this is how the Dialog currently looks like: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:PhotoAlbumDialog.png
[16:23] <samuel_m> And Slide Layout has the Options: 1 Image, 1 Image with Title, 2 Images, 4 Images
[16:24] <@issa> just a minute, the "Insert text" will be above the listbox but "Insert images" below?
[16:24] <mirek2> Does Slide layout apply to all the slides, or just the selected one?
[16:25] <astron> issa: insert text will go completely
[16:25] <samuel_m> mirek2: It applies to all
[16:26] <@issa> astron: oh ok, sorry I missed that part
[16:26] <astron> hm ... samuel, how does one add the text in the end?
[16:27] <samuel_m> You would need to manually edit the Slides afterwards
[16:27] <astron> (title text)
[16:27] <astron> ohk.
[16:27] <samuel_m> But you could do the same without this option, you only need to change the Slide Layout
[16:27] <astron> well, i guess thats better than reimplementing the whole spreadsheet editor there..?
[16:28] <@issa> I think it should be a checkbox rather than an option
[16:29] <astron> issa: good idea
[16:30] <samuel_m> issa: You mean that you can apply it also to the other Slide Layouts (2/4 Images)=
[16:30] <samuel_m> ?
[16:30] <@issa> samuel_m: exactly
[16:30] <samuel_m> Yeah that would make more sense
[16:30] <astron> although you could end up with too many titles on the slide...
[16:30] <samuel_m> But I wonder if we need that at all
[16:31] <samuel_m> because you would anyway have to manually edit the slides to enter the title
[16:31] <@issa> a photo album feature should be accessible to entry level users, so I think it could be this simple
[16:32] <astron> samuel_m: could you maybe upload an example odp somewhere, where we (read: i) can look at it? (i currently dont have a nightly here)
[16:32] <mirek2> btw, the placement of the Album layout  is a bit misleading
[16:32] <astron> (an odp mad with the photo album functionality, and that uses titles)
[16:32] <@issa> astron: I think it should be one title per slide
[16:32] <mirek2> below the preview, it seems like it's relevant only to the selection
[16:33] <samuel_m> astron: one moment please
[16:33] <astron> issa: of course, i would just be interested, how it would be displayed. samuel_m: thanks a lot!
[16:34] <astron> agree with mirek2...
[16:35] <astron> ...hm, on the topic of the preview: how should it work? should it always try to preview the entire slide or just the selected image?
[16:35] <@issa> mirek2: where should it be then?
[16:36] <@issa> astron: I like the way the mockup does it
[16:36] <mirek2> issa: the "Album layout" label is unnecessary; the two items it groups can either be laid out above ore below the row with the listbox
[16:36] <samuel_m> mirek2: You are right, I'll remove the heading "Album Layout"
[16:37] <mirek2> same with the "Album Content" label
[16:38] <samuel_m> mirek2: Well, then the only Heading left would be the "Preview" label
[16:38] <mirek2> ... which I would say is unnecessary as well
[16:38] <samuel_m> Here are 4 Slides with the different Slide layouts: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Photo_album_slide_layouts.odp
[16:38] == mahfiaz [~mattias@gprs-inet-65-72.elisa.ee] has joined #libreoffice-design
[16:39] <samuel_m> Hi mahfiaz, we are just discussing your suggestiosn
[16:39] <samuel_m> *suggestions
[16:40] <mahfiaz> hi everyone
[16:40] <mahfiaz> samuel_m: good to know I made it :)
[16:40] <samuel_m> mahfiaz: We agreed to remove the "Text Box" feature
[16:41] <samuel_m> And put the "Insert Images" button next to the others, call it "Add"
[16:41] <samuel_m> (below the listbox)
[16:43] <samuel_m> Here's the history: http://pastie.org/7831383
[16:43] <samuel_m> Now we are discussing whether we should remove the "1 Image with Title" layout
[16:43] <mahfiaz> samuel_m: thanks
[16:45] <samuel_m> So everyone agrees to remove the three headings "Preview", "Album Layout", "Album Content"?
[16:46] <@issa> yes for me
[16:46] <astron> ah... wait.
[16:47] <astron> album layout -- not sure; album content -- completely unnecessary; preview -- could maybe be clarified to image preview (as opposed to slide preview)
[16:47] <samuel_m> When you start the Dialog, there is no Preview, it's just empty. And it looks weird when there is no heading
[16:48] <astron> we have a placeholder image... in icon-themes/sw/ somewhere...
[16:48] <astron> not sure that's a good idea though
[16:49] <mirek2> perhaps it could work like the Gnome Open dialog, when you get the preview pane on click?
[16:49] <astron> bah ..no
[16:49] <astron> without an animation that is just unelegant.
[16:49] <astron> and libreoffice doesnt really do animations
[16:49] <@issa> instead of a placeholder image it should be an outline with the word "preview" in the middle
[16:49] <mahfiaz> I don't like gnome style here, resizing dialogs are just confusing
[16:50] <astron> issas idea is probably best here
[16:50] <samuel_m> How should that look?
[16:50] <astron> (but it should be localisable)
[16:52] <mirek2> that sounds good
[16:52] <samuel_m> can someone create a mockup and send it to me?
[16:52] <samuel_m> or the list
[16:52] <mahfiaz> I can do it
[16:53] <samuel_m> ok, thanks
[16:53] <@issa> mahfiaz: I'm doing it now
[16:53] <mahfiaz> issa: cool
[16:54] <samuel_m> oh the list doesn't accept attachments, so you could upload it in the WIki
[16:54] <mahfiaz> my vote goes to the preview inside image box as well
[16:54] <samuel_m> I'm also fine with it
[16:57] <samuel_m> Now what about the Layouts? Should have a checkbox "With title" for all layouts or remove it completely?
[16:57] <astron> on the topic of the "multiple images + multiple titles" idea: i dont think it will be as easy to make this work. the photo album dialogue is using pre-existing slide templates,  and we dont have any that do multiple titles
[16:57] <@issa> http://i.imgur.com/1EpvBNt.png
[16:59] <mirek2> astron: the title would be above the grid of images, not one per image
[16:59] <astron> mirek2: right. that would be possible...
[16:59] <astron> didnt think about that
[17:01] <samuel_m> I guess it wouldn't hurt to leave the checkbox there
[17:01] <samuel_m> Though the Image is too small with the current layout
[17:02] <mahfiaz> samuel_m: do you mean the "Keep aspect ratio" checkbox?
[17:02] <samuel_m> The Layouts Impress has all have a border
[17:03] <samuel_m> mahfiaz: No, We wanted to create a checkbox "With Title" that does what the "1 Image with Title" Layout does, but for all Layout options
[17:09] <samuel_m> Hm I think my preference is to remove this option. I think it will create more confusion than it is actually helpful.
[17:10] <astron> which option now? the title option?
[17:10] <@issa> I think the option is very helpful, but we need a smarter label
[17:12] <samuel_m> astron: yes
[17:13] <astron> i dont think we should remove it either. (agree with issa here)
[17:14] <samuel_m> So how could the label be called?
[17:14] <astron> as for smart labelling: is "add title" good enough?
[17:15] <mirek2> would it be possible to preview the slide instead of the image so that the user would know what he would get?
[17:16] <mirek2> given our different interpretations of what "add title" would do, a preview would clear things up
[17:17] <samuel_m> mirek2: I don't know how to create previews of the actual Slides, but we could use Images
[17:17] <@issa> mirek2: it could be "add slide titles" or "title slides"
[17:17] <mahfiaz> http://imgur.com/t5AxyIP
[17:18] <astron> mirek2: it would not make sense to preview slides, unless you also change the list on the left
[17:19] <mirek2> yeah, I suppose
[17:19] <astron> (it could be a tree that you could expand to see the images you have put on the slides or something like this)
[17:19] <astron> not sure that cuts it
[17:19] <samuel_m> I think generic Images showing the general layout would be nice. Just some grey boxes for each image and a box for the title or such
[17:19] <mahfiaz> This image explains just that: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Create_photo_album_4-images.png
[17:19] <mirek2> I was just saying that the titles feature might need a preview, as people can have different expectations of what iw ould do
[17:20] <mirek2> or perhaps we could use the label "Add title to each slide" for the textbox?
[17:23] <mahfiaz> about the image image positioning: IMO this plugin should make images as big as possible, this is the only way I would ever want to create a photo album
[17:27] <astron> hm, right
[17:28] <samuel_m> I also agree.
[17:30] <@issa> I think the zoom or crop option is good
[17:31] <astron> zoom or crop?
[17:32] <samuel_m> I'm AFK for 15min
[17:33] <@issa> astron: I meant zoom or fit
[17:33] <@issa> (zoom is crop)
[17:36] <astron> hm... ok, but that would be a new feature then?
[17:36] <@issa> I guess
[17:41] == mahfiaz [~mattias@gprs-inet-65-72.elisa.ee] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
[17:48] <mirek2> seems we've reached a dead end?
[17:48] <samuel_m> You mean we should have the user choose between zoom or crop and remove the "Keep Aspect Ratio" checkbox
[17:49] <astron> samuel_m agree with that conclusion
[17:50] <mirek2> choose between zoom or fit
[17:50] <mirek2> "zoom" would zoom the picture and crop it to fit the area, right?
[17:50] <samuel_m> right
[17:50] <mirek2> "crop" is a better term than "zoom" for the feature
[17:52] <astron> ok... should we close this topic then?
[17:52] <samuel_m> What did we decide about the Title issue?
[17:52] <mirek2> I'd be in favor of the option "Add Title to Each Slide"
[17:53] <samuel_m> That sounds good
[17:53] <samuel_m> And what about the preview?
[17:54] <mirek2> I liked Issa's proposal
[17:54] <mirek2> and agree that it should only preview the picture, not the slide
[17:54] <astron> right -- no label, just a placeholder saying [Preview]
[17:55] <samuel_m> Ok
[17:56] <@issa> the slide layout label will be kept though, right?
[17:56] <samuel_m> issa: can you send me a png image for the preview placeholder which I can then use in the Dialog?
[17:56] <samuel_m> issa: I guess so
[17:57] <astron> samuel_m: i think it would be better to generate it on the fly, especially for localisation
[17:57] <samuel_m> Hm, should we maybe remove the word "Preview" from it and just put a generic Image there?
[17:58] <astron> no, because that would be a bit misleading
[17:58] <astron> (it would look a bit like there already is an image)
[17:58] <@issa> for now you can use the lines image and add "preview" on top of it
[17:59] <mirek2> that sounds good
[17:59] <samuel_m> Ok. Not sure if that works, but I'll give it a try.
[17:59] <mirek2> I wouldn't be for embedding "Preview" in the image
[18:00] <mirek2> for localization as well as styling purposes (Ubuntu is not a common system font)
[18:01] <samuel_m> Yeah, I will put a translatable label instead
[18:02] <@issa> I think the black lines wouldn't be always black but will depend on theme, but for now they will do
[18:02] <astron> mirek2: what do you mean by "(Ubuntu is not a common system font)"?
[18:02] <mirek2> astron: I just mean that, if the text was embeded, the Ubuntu font could stand out on a system that has a different system font
[18:03] <mirek2> like Windows or Mac OS
[18:03] <astron> why would it be the ubuntu font unless on ubuntu?
[18:03] <astron> here's what i had in mind: http://imgur.com/NoGA97c
[18:04] <mirek2> astron: that's why I'm saying the text shouldn't be embeded in the image
[18:04] <mirek2> astron: looks good as well
[18:10] <mirek2> so... what do others think?
[18:10] <mirek2> samuel_m: what do you think?

--- continued on PiratePad because of Freenode outage ---

18:32 Astron: i linked to imgur.com/NoGA97c btw
18:35 issa: this is the one without the text http://i.imgur.com/kU99Yer.png
18:37 Astron: hm ... i like mine better :) i am biased of course
18:37 Astron: ftr: mahfiaz linked to http://www.upload.ee/files/3303498/Example_presentation.odp.html
18:37 Astron: (i agree it looks much better than what we have now)
18:38 Astron: but it is also harder to do
18:38 Samuel: I think it's doable
18:38 issa: also it goes a bit against the concept of using "what's already there"
18:39 issa: I mean since this is Impress and not another program I think it should use the current slide layouts
18:39 issa: (or add the new ones as new slide layouts)
18:40 Astron: hm, no i guess this would largely depend on the masterpage...
18:40 mahfiaz: issa, are you talking about dialog or template?
18:40 issa: Astron: oh right
18:41 issa: mahfiaz: template
18:42 mahfiaz: it is a dumb question at this point, but where can I get this dialog in the Impress?
18:42 Samuel: I like your layout, mahfiaz, but I think it's too specific if that is the default behavior. In future we might have some templates specifically for the Photo Album Dialog, there it would fit better
18:42 Astron: mahfiaz: you need to use a nightly...
18:42 Samuel: mahfiaz, Insert->Image->Photo Album. But you need a recent build
18:43 Samuel: http://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/master/
18:43 mahfiaz: no builds for linux x86_64, but thanks anyway
18:45 Samuel: I think the easiest way to test those is on windows
18:45 mahfiaz: so what would be the other use if not for photo album? show scientific images about microbes? (I would do this fullscreen as well)
18:45 Astron: mahfiaz: with different distros etc, it is easier to try a windows build under wine anyway
18:45 Astron: mahfiaz: well, some people may have scanned slides or so
18:46 Astron: (basically, redoing someone elses presentation)
18:46 Samuel: I don't understand, what's the problem now?
18:47 mahfiaz: I'm just trying to get my head around how using current layouts would be useful
18:48 Astron: then, take a look at michael meeks presentations showing off libreoffice features ... hes using a screenshot on most pages
18:53 mahfiaz: Astron, thanks, found one, really nice and useful
18:54 Mirek: I think it'd be best if the dialog stuck to what's possible with the current layouts
18:54 Mirek: we certainly don't want people to use this dialog to insert a picture with a prettier layout
18:55 Mirek: I mean, using the dialog to insert a single image slide
18:55 Mirek: it'd be good if we could add a layout or two
18:56 Astron: mahfiaz: i meant one of these slide shows as an example what the photo album functionality could be useful for
18:56 Astron: mirek: guess i agree.
18:57 Samuel: The problem with the default Slide layouts is, that the have *huge* borders, so the image is very small in the end
18:57 Samuel: but that's not what you want when creating a photo album
19:00 Samuel: Don't know if there is a way to change those
19:01 Mirek: so, my advice would be to add the 3 layouts that we want
19:01 Mirek: I would also love to see a layout for a centered title
19:01 Mirek: but that's a whole other topic
19:01 Astron: three? should it not be four?
19:02 Samuel: 1/2/4 Images
19:02 Samuel: three layouts
19:02 Samuel: actually six
19:02 Astron: yeah.
19:02 Samuel: with/without title
19:03 Astron: thats what i meant
19:03 mahfiaz: layouts won't do cropped images
19:05 mahfiaz: wrong, they kind of do still, but changing aspect ratios of already cropped images (or not) won't happen later
19:07 Mirek: hm, not sure how to deal with cropped images
19:10 Mirek: but we can agree to add the 3 layouts, right?
19:10 Samuel: yeah
19:11 mahfiaz: would these images use as much screen space as possible?
19:12 Mirek: that would be best
19:12 mahfiaz: if yes, then absolutely
19:13 Mirek: samuel, does that sound doable?
19:13 Samuel: That needs to be documented on the Whiteboard, it's not something I can do immediately.
19:14 Mirek: I think the designs proposed in the presentation cover it well...
19:14 Mirek: what else is there to add?
19:17 Samuel: Ok, then just link the presentation on the whiteboard
19:17 Samuel: that we not forget it or that others can step in and implement it
19:18 Mirek: I wouldn't say that a full-fledged whiteboard is necessary
19:20 Mirek: perhaps I could just add a link to the Developer Blueprints section we have?
19:20 Samuel: should we create a bug report instead? that's what we have already: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Photo_Album_Creator
19:20 Astron: i think a whiteboard is fine ... just umho
19:21 Astron: ^umho^imho
19:22 Mirek: can you create it then? :)
19:22 Mirek: I assume we've agreed on the final design?
19:23 mahfiaz: I modified the presentation a little, added an example about "Fit to slide" image with caption and the last slide has modified layout title position, which shows how using layouts *with* title could look like (please note that the black box is not shown when actually presenting)
19:23 mahfiaz: http://www.upload.ee/files/3303744/Example_presentation_v2.odp.html
19:35 Mirek: not sure I understand what you said about the last slide
19:35 Mirek: what black box?
19:36 Mirek: how is the title position modified?
19:41 mahfiaz: Mirek, I changed the title position by hand, but for photo template this could be the default position
19:41 Mirek: wouldn't centered be the best position?
19:42 mahfiaz: and when you decide to leave it empty the box with "Click to add title" shows only when editing
19:43 mahfiaz: centered title would cover the picture, usually bottom is where images have the most unnecessary information
19:44 Mirek: right, the way you mocked it up is good
19:44 Mirek: so... everyone agree on the proposals?
19:47 Samuel: I think it's ok. Can we agree to add an option whether the title is on top or at the bottom?
19:47 mahfiaz: would this mean extra layouts?
19:48 Samuel: It's not layouts, it's positioning with the "None" Layout
19:48 Samuel: At least that's what I thought of
19:51 Samuel: Well, I have to leave now. Thanks for all thoughts, we made some good decisions. Feel free to continue without me.
19:52 Samuel: see you
19:52 Mirek: see you :)
19:52 Mirek: perhaps we should move to another topic now?
19:55 mahfiaz: agreed
19:57 Mirek: ok -- anything one of you two would like to discuss?
19:59 mahfiaz: I'll be AFK for the next 15 minutes, and no topic I'd like to raise today
19:59 Astron: hm...
20:00 Mirek: ok
20:00 Astron: issa: how is the flat icon theme going?
20:00 Astron: (also: can you somehow coordinate with mariano)
20:00 Astron: ?
20:03 Astron: hello?
20:05 Mirek: I'm still here...
20:05 Mirek: perhaps we could discuss something else until Issa shows up?
20:06 Astron: we still need a design for the style-copying thing that used to be in the template manager ...
20:07 Mirek: right
20:07 Mirek: I posted to the mailing list about that
20:07 Astron: hm, right.
20:08 Mirek: I would propose just having separate "Load Styles from Template" and "Load Styles from File" entries in the Styles and Formatting menu, with the former launching the Template manager, but without a toolbar and with "Cancel" and "Load" buttons at the bottom right, and the latter launching the Open dialog.
20:08 Mirek: thoughts?
20:08 Astron: right. thants good - but could you make a mockup of it, please?
20:08 Astron: -n
20:10 issa: sorry I'm back
20:10 Astron: also, i think it used to be possible to load styles from another open document
20:10 Mirek: mockup of the tweaked template dialog, I assume?
20:10 Mirek: as I said, I would use the Open dialog for that
20:12 Astron: mirek: yes. but also, we need a dialogue to select the styles that shoud be copied over
20:12 Mirek: hm, ok, I might make a mockup
20:14 Astron: btw, we have retained the ability to copy all styles from a template, but it does not use the new template manager: in the the Styles and Formatting window, click the top-right icon, and choose Load Styles
20:15 Astron: so, that would probably be the best integration point
20:16 Mirek: yup
20:16 Mirek: my thoughts exactly
20:18 Astron: ok.... that solved, i guess...
20:18 Astron: issa... then...
20:18 Astron: i know you spoke with mariano about the theme -- is there some way you can work together?
20:19 issa: I didn't actually
20:19 issa: I was travelling the past ten days and just saw his message today
20:19 issa: I'm not sure how but hopefully there is
20:19 issa: I just need to figure it out
20:20 issa: (so yes I don't have real updates)
20:20 Astron: ok. i know it is a bit hard to communicate with mariano ... but maybe you can get him to contribute directly...
20:21 issa: Norah is currently working on the shapes and they are shaping up nicely
20:21 Astron: actually not sure how much of the faenza theme is hiss work, though.
20:21 Astron: oh, who is norah?
20:21 Astron: another kacst student?
20:21 issa: another kacst employee
20:21 Astron: /me has been "away" too long.
20:22 Astron: oh, i thought you were students..=?
20:22 issa: not really, we are a research organization
20:22 Astron: ohk.
20:22 issa: but we also are the nation FOSS program
20:22 issa: *national
20:23 Astron: hm... i have probably misunderstood that then before
20:24 issa: so the shapes are "shaping up" nicely, needs a few adjustments to stick to guidelines and they she can probably show them here
20:24 issa: don't worry about it
20:24 issa: *and then she can
20:24 issa: as for Mariano splitting work in a way that ensures consistency is a bit hard
20:25 issa: but I will try my best
20:26 Astron: okay. thanks
20:28 Astron: ok. shall we close the chat for today?
20:30 issa: I have nothing to add
20:31 Mirek: hm, I guess it's too late to open up the topic of the color picker
20:31 Mirek: so, yes, let's end the chat for today
20:31 Astron: ok... i dont have a log of the start of the conversation... so i cant upload to the wiki.
20:31 Astron: samuel, you maybe?
20:31 Mirek: I uploaded the beginning
20:31 Mirek: the non-Pirate Pad parts
20:32 Astron: ah, good. then you can do the log uploading thing :)
20:33 Astron: ok. bye all.