Design/Meetings/2013-06-02

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Attendees

  • issa
  • mirek2
  • SteveBell

Topics

  • Color picker
  • Flat icons

Log

mirek2:  hi issa
issa:  hello mirek2  SteveBell 
mirek2:  hi Steve
mirek2:  @issa: I assume you want to talk about the color picker?
issa:  yes
mirek2:  https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Color_Picker
mirek2:  should I start with my comments?
issa:  sure, go ahead
mirek2:  1) "Recent colors" doesn't belong under "Theme colors", as per our previous discussions
mirek2:  2) Standard colors should not have a separate top row
mirek2:  they should be displayed just like any other color palette
mirek2:  (up till now, the Standard palette was editable, and thus doesn't always fit a nice grid)
issa:  1) would a seperator do the trick?
mirek2:  nope
issa:  2) I'm okay with either
mirek2:  as I said before, I don't want to encourage mixing theme colors and static colors
mirek2:  3) Theme colors are presented as a palette
mirek2:  they're not really a standard palette, though
issa:  3) see the alternate option down (two tabs)
mirek2:  that bottom option seems way too complex for me, on the other hand
mirek2:  and still has issues 1 and 2
issa:  as I said 2 can easily be removed/fixed
mirek2:  right
issa:  as for 1 I disagree, it has to be there
issa:  you can add a seperator or whatever, but it has to always be visible
mirek2:  ok
mirek2:  I disagree, but I don't think it's something we'll ever resolve
issa:  agreed
mirek2:  so, when it comes to the implementation, I would leave it up to the dev
SteveBell:  hi guys, was away and am rather busy atm. but might read along
mirek2:  ok
issa:  This is how MS Office does it by the way: http://i.imgur.com/wvvJJzc.png
mirek2:  I know
mirek2:  however, they present everything in one view
mirek2:  and don't support palettes
mirek2:  another thing I'm somewhat sad about is the workflow for people who change colors a lot
mirek2:  having to add color by color isn't really a pleasant experience, IMHO
issa:  we've been there before
mirek2:  I know
issa:  I guess we'd either need a third party to decide or do a poll
mirek2:  third party: yes
SteveBell:  can I function as a third party?!?
mirek2:  but a designer third party
mirek2:  someone who would analyze the thing
– SteveBell hat sich abgemeldet (Excess Flood)
– SteveBell hat den Raum betreten
mirek2:  a poll: no, at least not a poll based on preference
issa:  ok lets split the matter into the core questions
mirek2:  SteveBell: what are your thoughts on the matter?
mirek2:  issa: and it would also be good to consult the dev on this matter
issa:  1) custom color: dialog or popver?
issa:  2) recent colors: placement/visibility?
mirek2:  2) Recent colors: on the same screen as theme colors?
issa:  mirek2: but in my design it's always there, regardless whether it's theme or palettes
SteveBell:  are there links? what you are referring to?
SteveBell:  I#m on https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Color_Picker
mirek2:  issa: sure, but my issue is with it being shown along with the theme
mirek2:  I don't mind it being shown with palettes
mirek2:  given that palettes are static as well
mirek2:  whereas themes are variable
mirek2:  SteveBell: yes, that's the page
mirek2:  look under Proposals
mirek2:  issa: we did something similar for the Impress Remote
mirek2:  see https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Impress_remote -> Open Problems
issa:  we could add a 3) theme colors and palettes: together or separate tabs?
mirek2:  I would vehemently oppose having theme colors presented as a palette
issa:  mirek2: and how was that decided on?
mirek2:  but I wouldn't oppose it if it was in the same drop-down as palettes if it was separated well
mirek2:  e.g. https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:C-menu.png
issa:  mirek2: what do you mean separated well?
mirek2:  imagine "Theme colors" being in its own section
issa:  sure that's perfect
mirek2:  and there wouldn't be a "Palette:" label
issa:  no problem at all
mirek2:  alright, good
mirek2:  back to your proposal:
mirek2:  4) I'd prefer if "Custom color" would be associated with the Recent colors section
issa:  but then the color names won't appear for custom colors
mirek2:  5) I'd prefer if the color label appeared below everything and previewed the color
issa:  I disagree with previewing the colors since it's supposedly designed for people with vision issues
mirek2:  it's also for people who are color blind
issa:  having the colors as a name only would make sure it's visible and clear for everyone
mirek2:  but a color preview won't hurt them
issa:  mirek2: and? it still would identify the color
issa:  I think the way it is currently implemented looks perfect
mirek2:  so just a on-hover label, then?
mirek2:  that'd be fine by me
issa:  no no
issa:  not the hover the one in the bottom
mirek2:  the thing is, right now, you have all the colors in the same section
issa:  the hover is a bit annoying when you're "browsing" colors
mirek2:  it's how MS Office implements it
mirek2:  it's easy to find the selected color in the picker now, because there's no other place to look for it
mirek2:  however, when you have various palettes, custom colors and theme colors, it's hard to find the current color
issa:  and why would you need to find it?
mirek2:  the picker might tell you that the current color is red, but you have no clue which red it is
issa:  actually if the color is chosen that means you will most likely be on the same palette the color is in
mirek2:  if you're opening an old document or someone else's, you might not be
mirek2:  that's not the issue, though
mirek2:  what I was getting at is that it's harder to compare the current color with a new color when you don't have a preview
issa:  just a second
mirek2:  labels can be misleading
issa:  would the preview show the currently selected color or the color of the selected object?
mirek2:  it's your design, so you tell me
mirek2:  I assumed you meant it to be like the current implementation
issa:  yes, mine shows the selected color
mirek2:  which shows the object's color until you hover over a color
issa:  if it's the selected color then %90 of the time you will be on the same palette
issa:  unless of course you chose a color then changed the palette (without choosing another color)
mirek2:  well, for one thing, the theme colors should not be labeled with color names, but with theme color names
mirek2:  e.g. "Accent 1" instead of "Red"
mirek2:  (Office does that, BTW)
issa:  it does both (Red, Accent 1)
mirek2:  on Mac OS, it seems to do just one
mirek2:  just "Accent 1"
issa:  oh, I'm on Windows
mirek2:  I'm on Linux, but I checked it out on my mom's laptop
mirek2:  and I'd prefer it to just show the theme color name
issa:  then that would ruin it for the color blind
mirek2:  no, as the person shouldn't care about the actual color
mirek2:  e.g. if he needs Red, then he needs to use a static color
mirek2:  if he wants a theme that uses red as an accent color, he should change the theme
issa:  I guess, but they could possibly make terribly mismatched themes
issa:  anyway back to the tooltips
mirek2:  themes use static colors, so when choosing theme colors, they would see the color names
mirek2:  I mean to say that themes are set with static colors
mirek2:  hopefully you understand what I mean
issa:  mirek2: yeah I get it now
mirek2:  anyway, I would assume that "Custom colors" would be the most frequent way to get a static color
mirek2:  though that's only an assumption
issa:  LibreOffice does the tooltips way too fast that they are annoying, in MS Office they only appear after a few seconds
mirek2:  since we're designing for the color-blind, I think they should appear instantly
mirek2:  LibreOffice's behavior never bothered me
issa:  it bothers me
mirek2:  and, in LibreOffice, it's more a label than a tooltip 
mirek2:  oh, wait, just launched LibO and noticed that there' also an actual tooltip
issa:  yes that's what I'm talking about
mirek2:  which is strange, given that the label has the same info
mirek2:  yeah, I agree with you
issa:  exactly
mirek2:  I would keep one or the other
issa:  either keep the label or slowdown the tooltips
mirek2:  I would keep the label in the current implementation
mirek2:  anyway, given that "Recent colors" has a limited number of slots, sometimes the current color wouldn't be there at all
mirek2:  what do you think about previewing the color next to the color label?
mirek2:  simply showing a box next to the label
issa:  it's previewed on the toolbar button itself
mirek2:  right, but there it can be barely visible
mirek2:  but, ok, I guess I'd be fine with previewing the color at the bottom
mirek2:  I mean, with labels at the bottom
mirek2:  anyway, I guess I'd be fine with your design for the picker
mirek2:  I'd love for someone to do some user research, testing, ...
mirek2:  and I think we should probably discuss this further when we do find a developer
issa:  btw why are your palette colors fewer in quantity than the theme colors?
mirek2:  to fit snugly in a 10x10 grid, and simply because I don't think it's necessary to have 6 per color
mirek2:  a column-based layout isn't really possible -- every palette would have to have 10 colors then
mirek2:  and having some colors bleed into the next row is kind of... fugly
issa:  I see
mirek2:  anyway, I'd be fine with you labeling your proposal as the tentative design
mirek2:  as long as you remove the Palette: label
mirek2:  label theme colors with the theme color name
mirek2:  and present palettes in a grid
issa:  I'm modifying it as we're speaking
mirek2:  switching between theme colors and palettes could happen in the drop-down, so long as they're clearly separated
mirek2:  btw, recent colors: those would be global, I assume?
mirek2:  not document dependent?
issa:  yes
mirek2:  what's the difference between "Colors history" and "More recent colors"?
issa:  not just custom colors all colors from all palettes
issa:  should probably be replaced with document colors
issa:  (just a bad idea I quickly wrote down)
mirek2:  Recent colors wouldn't show colors from palettes?
mirek2:  if not, perhaps it should be called "Custom colors" or "Recent custom colors"?
issa:  should it show colors from palettes?
mirek2:  possibly...
mirek2:  if it doesn't, then I think it should be more tightly coupled with the "Custom colors" button
issa:  hmm
issa:  when I think about it would be useful for it to have the colors from other palettes
issa:  but then it would be silly to have the other palettes always available
mirek2:  Gnome does this: http://afaikblog.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/colour2.png?w=640
mirek2:  it labels the section "Custom" and has a plus button for adding colors
issa:  I see
mirek2:  I personally really like that implementation
mirek2:  ... and it would save space
issa:  I don't like the idea of a plus button for something like that
mirek2:  why not?
mirek2:  I would think that it would be in line with ux-natural-mapping
mirek2:  given that "Recent colors" is where custom colors get added
issa:  well I don't necessarily have a logical reason :P
mirek2:  :) ok
mirek2:  perhaps you're more comfortable with it because it's Office's design
mirek2:  Google Drive has an interesting design as well, btw...
mirek2:  http://www.google.com/help/hc/images/docs/docs_1696586_color_picker_en.gif
mirek2:  "Custom..." is a button which launches the custom color picker
mirek2:  that design also maps the recent colors to the custom color dialog
mirek2:  also, clicking on the empty slots launches the dialog as well
mirek2:  what do you think about that?
mirek2:  (perhaps try it at first)
issa:  ok now I get the Gnome design
issa:  I didn't realize that the plus button was shaped like the colors!
mirek2:  :)
mirek2:  do you still feel the same way about it?
issa:  it sounds a bit better
issa:  which program is that from btw? I use Gnome but I don't think I've ever ran into it
mirek2:  I remember running across the dialog when choosing a static color background
mirek2:  however, they seem to have changed that dialog and you can no longer choose a custom color, I believe
issa:  oh I see
mirek2:  I can't tell, though
mirek2:  running 3.8 on Ubuntu Gnome and it crashes when I try to pick a background color
mirek2:  if you have an older Gnome version, you might still have the dialog
issa:  btw is that what you meant by labeling the theme? http://i.imgur.com/tK0bVeI.png
mirek2:  I like the separator
mirek2:  don't like the ": LibreOffice", though
issa:  I thought that's what you meant
mirek2:  or the triangle on the right
issa:  you mentioned something about the theme name
mirek2:  I think I was talking about color labels
issa:  the triangle is because there is an arrow that shows interaction in the file I'm working on :P
issa:  oh alright then
mirek2:  labeling a color "Accent 1" instead of "Red"
issa:  http://i.imgur.com/3Drl2cH.png
mirek2:  the color picker still seems too separate
mirek2:  (e.g. background color, separator, ...)
issa:  the background color was supposed to denote selectable items
mirek2:  I don't understand
mirek2:  except for the labels, everything in the pop-over is selectable
issa:  true I guess
mirek2:  btw, as I said before, I don't think it'll be possible to have palettes presented in columns
mirek2:  also, it seems like you're missing a theme color
mirek2:  there should be 10
mirek2:  (4 background/foreground and 6 accents, with hyperlink and followed hyperlink not offered)
issa:  you meant palettes should be in rows or unordered?
mirek2:  (unless I'm mistaken, palettes are simply a list of colors)
mirek2:  they're an ordered list, but not a categorized list
issa:  I don't think there's such a thing implemented
mirek2:  the colors are ordered as a sequence, not as a grid
mirek2:  I'm thinking we'll probably use an existing palette file, not invent our own
mirek2:  so that people can use their GIMP/Inkscape palettes in LibreOffice
issa:  I don't think MS Office has palettes, does it?
mirek2:  I don't know
mirek2:  but GIMP and Inkscape do
mirek2:  I haven't checked out the file, though
mirek2:  perhaps GIMP palettes are organized into grids
mirek2:  hm, it seems like .gpl files really do have a "columns" setting
mirek2:  the pop-over should have a maximum column number
mirek2:  and it should have a fixed width, so tiles would either be bigger or smaller
issa:  you want the tiles to be dynamic?
mirek2:  no, but I can imagine palettes having different tile sizes
mirek2:  alternatively, palettes could have the same tile size
mirek2:  and just a lot of white space at the sides
mirek2:  (e.g. if a palette specified 4 columns)
mirek2:  or LibreOffice could ignore the column setting
issa:  yes I think that would be the most logical use
issa:  after all I'd that most palettes will be created by us
mirek2:  I would only include a single "Standard" palette by default and a Document colors palette
issa:  why not have fun with them?
mirek2:  because I don't want to add extra cruft
mirek2:  simple tends to be better
issa:  also I'd like to have a Reds/Greens/Blues palettes for a larger standard palette
mirek2:  and it's not like the picker is aimed at designers
mirek2:  so I don't see the point for a Reds/Greens/Blues palette
mirek2:  (if it was aimed at designers, custom colors would be more accessible)
issa:  well we don't have the color hexagon MS Office has
mirek2:  the primary use-case I see for palettes is e.g. a palette with corporate colors
issa:  I'd like to have some way to choose colors digitally from a large array
issa:  corporate colors should be themes :P
mirek2:  in most cases, yes
mirek2:  but you could have a complementary set of corporate colors for illustrations
mirek2:  a set that includes all the colors of the rainbow to complement your corporate color theme
issa:  how can I view palettes in GIMP?
mirek2:  they're a panel
mirek2:  "Window" > Panels ? > Palettes
mirek2:  (my OS is not in English, not sure what the menu names actually are)
issa:  ok thank you, I was look somewhere else
issa:  they are 16x16
mirek2:  you mean the tile size?
issa:  no, the grid size
mirek2:  depends on the palette
mirek2:  you can set the number of columns at the bottom of the panel
issa:  but that's the default I guess
mirek2:  I suppose so
issa:  so now which is better keeping the colors as columns or not?
mirek2:  I would adhere to the column number set in the palette if it was below 10
issa:  so that means keeping the colors in columns, no?
mirek2:  yes
issa:  http://i.imgur.com/HAcnV1C.png
mirek2:  all palettes should be in the same section
mirek2:  except for that, seems acceptable
mirek2:  still not completely happy with the way the picker is presented, but that's ok
issa:  even document colors?
mirek2:  document colors should probably be separate
mirek2:  given that they're stored in the document and vary from doc to doc
issa:  ok one more question
mirek2:  go ahead
issa:  do you think it would be a good idea for the color picker to have something similar to MS Office color hexagon?
mirek2:  I've never liked the hexagon
issa:  hehe I loved it
issa:  (mind you as a kid I used Power Point for everything but it's intended purpose)
mirek2:  :)
mirek2:  I don't think PowerPoint works well even for its intended purpose
issa:  I also would always pick digital over analog
issa:  it gives you enough tools to work with
mirek2:  oh, sure
mirek2:  that was badly phrased
mirek2:  I mean, PowerPoint is designed as a multi-purpose tool
mirek2:  just as good at pumping out presentations as for crafting a simple game
mirek2:  some people use Keynote for mockups
mirek2:  and if you used PowerPoint as it encourages you to use it, you would have a lot of slides with bullet points, animations, ClipArt, WordArt, all of which I would say actually take away from a presentation
issa:  word art I'd agree
issa:  animations can be nice when subtle (fading, etc)
issa:  bullet points are the essence of most presentations
mirek2:  here's a good presentation on presentations: http://www.slideshare.net/HubSpot/what-would-steve-do-10-lessons-from-the-worlds-most-captivating-presenters
issa:  clip art are like stock images, terrible standards
mirek2:  exactly
mirek2:  from the presentation: "tip 7: Ditch the bullet points. Permanently."
issa:  you aren't always marketing things
mirek2:  this is about presenting, not about marketing
mirek2:  presentations should supplement your talk
mirek2:  they shouldn't duplicate what you're talking about
issa:  not when you are in a business meeting and you are showing boring data and numbers
mirek2:  and even when the presentation is the content, you can easily do without bullet points
mirek2:  just look at the presentation -- it doesn't use bullets
mirek2:  issa: if you're showing data, you should use graphs
issa:  it doesn't suit all sorts of data
mirek2:  example?
issa:  I don't know, random unrelated numbers
mirek2:  why would you use bullet points for those?
mirek2:  if they're unrelated, you should probably use a slide for each one
mirek2:  anyway... :) any other topics?
issa:  they are related but can't exist in the same graph
issa:  anyway most presentations I've made were about things I didn't believe in/care about :P
mirek2:  I understand
issa:  I have icons to show
mirek2:  I know I made a ton of presentations for school which I basically read off the screen
issa:  https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Flat_icon_set#Snapshots
issa:  check Impress
mirek2:  looking good
mirek2:  I'm not sold on the look of the presentation
mirek2:  the spacing seems uneven
mirek2:  the roundness as well
issa:  inside the presentation icon itself?
mirek2:  I'm talking about the slide
issa:  yes
mirek2:  I'd probably prefer it if the rectangles weren't round at all
mirek2:  given that the boxes inside a slide aren't round either
mirek2:  and if the spacing between them was 1 or 2 px
issa:  sure
mirek2:  it'd be good to try the icons out, though
mirek2:  do you have commit access?
mirek2:  perhaps you could put the icons into unstable builds, just like with Tango testing
mirek2:  also, what's the progress on shapes?
issa:  I'm trying them myself on my machine
issa:  I'm hoping to add them just as the shapes finish to have a complete look for Writer, Calc and Impress
issa:  the shapes are supposedly progressing but I have not seen the latest update yet
mirek2:  ok
issa:  I told Norah about the meeting today she probably couldn't make it
mirek2:  alright
mirek2:  btw, I'm now a co-mentor of the "Improved toolbars" GSoC project
issa:  Goran wrote a script and a blog post explaining how to use the iconset http://blog.goranrakic.com/archives/2013/05/try_the_new_flat_icon_set_for_libreoffice.html
mirek2:  I'll announce it on the design list soon
issa:  did any student pick that?
mirek2:  yup
issa:  oh that's great
mirek2:  Prashant Pandey
issa:  I was planning on working on it in the upcoming hackfest!
mirek2:  on what exactly?
mirek2:  there's still plenty of tasks to choose from
issa:  the hidden item menu in particular, since kendy will be there
mirek2:  if you'd like to work on a specific thing, just say so
mirek2:  Kendy gave him the task of allowing to set a different icon size per toolbar, inspired by http://spiceofdesign.deviantart.com/art/Writer-Concept-351501580
mirek2:  the idea is to possibly have some toolbars use the symbolic set and some use the Tango set
issa:  yeah that seemed pretty weird to be honest
issa:  that concept does make sense though
mirek2:  yeah, I agree (with both)
issa:  although honestly I'm hoping for a one toolbar future
issa:  I think it can be achievable with the hidden item menu
mirek2:  yeah, I'm hoping for that, too
mirek2:  Kendy wasn't keen on that idea, though
mirek2:  at least that's what it seemed like to me
issa:  any specific reason?
mirek2:  I think he's just used to the current toolbar layout
issa:  in anyway I think it needs a lot of work, and study
mirek2:  definitely
issa:  I mean while working on the icons I see a lot of weird choices
mirek2:  such as?
issa:  https://raw.github.com/libodesign/flat-icons/master/sw_small2.png
issa:  this is part of the toolbar that appears when selecting autoshapes
mirek2:  ok...
issa:  you have bring to front and bring to back (instead of the whole alignment selector button) 
issa:  you also have the rightmost group and ungroup
mirek2:  hm, the symbolism isn't clear there, imho
issa:  which one in particular?
mirek2:  the group/ungroup
issa:  I picked these straight from Inkscape
issa:  they aren't perfect but I don't think I can think of better ones
mirek2:  ok
issa:  also you'd usually choose these from a menu rather than an icon
mirek2:  I know
issa:  actually I would like to go over the new icons one by one if that's ok
mirek2:  I'd prefer to do that when I can use them
mirek2:  they're much harder to judge without that context
mirek2:  also, I'd prefer it if there were more people
issa:  the thing is I don't want to commit things without discussing them first
issa:  because once comitted you would like to minimize changes
issa:  you could try the script I linked http://blog.goranrakic.com/archives/2013/05/try_the_new_flat_icon_set_for_libreoffice.html
mirek2:  the Tango testing icons aren't unchangeable
mirek2:  and they were committed nevertheless, although just for unstable builds
issa:  I know, but how we tackled most of the icons so far
issa:  *that's how we
mirek2:  well, I'd still prefer if there were more people
mirek2:  I don't want the design to be based on how I'm feeling
mirek2:  especially since that has a habit of changing
issa:  maybe in next week's meeting then
mirek2:  ok, sounds good
issa:  technically we are discussing them in a meeting :P
mirek2:  perhaps we'll have the shape icons by then too
mirek2:  issa: sure, but I wouldn't say I't have a good eye for these things
mirek2:  - 't
mirek2:  I guess we're done for today?
issa:  I think
mirek2:  do you want to post the log or should I?
issa:  just a minute
issa:  shall I edit the color picker tentative design?
issa:  (upload mine instead of the current)
mirek2:  sure, go ahead :)
issa:  ok great
issa:  you can post the log if you'd like
mirek2:  don't add it to the blueprints just yet, though
issa:  yeah I know
mirek2:  it'd be good to have more people take a look at it
mirek2:  ok, I'll put it up
issa:  I agree
mirek2:  alright
mirek2:  bye then
issa:  bye :)