Design/Meetings/2013-06-09
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Cast (in order of appearance)
- issa
- astron
- ahmd
- mirek2
- mahfiaz
Topics
- Writer default template
- Flat Icons
Log
[16:08] <issa> hello astron [16:10] <ahmd_> hello [16:10] <issa> hello ahmd [16:12] <astron> hi [16:13] <ahmd_> astron247: I was discussing with issa the default theme of Writer [16:13] <astron> oh ok [16:14] <ahmd_> I've noticed many wrong things in the paragraph spacing, default fonts, headings sizes [16:15] <ahmd_> it doesn't look professional [16:16] <ahmd_> and I believe this is an easy win for Writer if we got it right [16:16] <astron> ah ... we had this topic before. [16:17] <astron> so, for the default fonts, we can only do so much – it is supposed to always look right, and to this day i believe the only fonts that are always installed with libo are the liberation fonts [16:18] <ahmd_> yes, i agree with you [16:18] <astron> (because linux vendors like to package everything separately and tend to not ship the newer fonts weve added to libo) [16:18] <ahmd_> but what should be the default, sans-serif or serif? [16:19] <astron> that said, i think some things used to be hard-coded somewhere [16:19] <astron> ahmd_: well, i cant really say. its up to whoever does the default template [16:20] <astron> but the way it is, and the way many people still do it: you pick a sans for the headlines and a serif for the text [16:20] <astron> but theres not really a way to get it right in all circumstances [16:21] <astron> (ie screen text is often quite the opposite – because of the low resolution of most screens) [16:21] <ahmd_> i think sans is better to be the default [16:22] <ahmd_> because it works on the screen and on the paper [16:22] <ahmd_> not like sans-serif which look a bit noisy on screen [16:23] <ahmd_> sorry serif [16:23] <ahmd_> i can see most word processors now are using sans as default font [16:24] <astron> at the same time, it might only be two to three years until high resolution displays (think, retina macbooks, tablets) are widespread (at least in the western world) [16:27] <astron> so ... i dont really know [16:29] <ahmd__> what do you think, should we proceed and have sans as the default font for paragraphs? [16:30] <astron> ahmd_: i cant really tell you. although i believe liberation serif is quite robust in screen settings [16:31] <astron> and i can tell you that i like liberation sans even less than arial (which it is supposed to copy). [16:31] <ahmd__> issa? [16:31] <astron> issa: oh good [16:32] <issa> I prefer a serif font because it looks more elegant in both print and pdf documents [16:33] <issa> (and I'd say that's where you would encounter most documents produced by writer) [16:35] <astron> issa: liberation serif isnt really elegant, its more of a workhorse serif if you will... [16:36] <issa> well compared to liberation sans anyway [16:36] <astron> right [16:36] <issa> (I've never used them much tbh) [16:39] <astron> right. after all, they are replacement fonts for arial and times new roman, first and foremost [16:40] <ahmd__> ok, so do we leave the default paragraph font as serif? [16:41] <astron> i dont know. you may want to try both and put it on the list..? [16:42] <astron> btw: ahmd__, are you one of the kacst people? [16:43] <ahmd__> yes :) [16:43] <astron> ok. [16:45] <astron> is there actually any sort of sans/serif distinction in arabic? or anything that replaces it? [16:45] <issa> no proper distinction [16:45] <astron> ok [16:50] <astron> anyway, alexander wilms had started on a new default writer template before. [16:50] <astron> not sure if you already knew this [16:51] <ahmd__> did he finish it? [16:51] <astron> not really. [16:53] <ahmd__> regardless default font, there are other important issues [16:55] <ahmd__> paragraphs are not separated by default, headings,... [16:55] <astron> yes. [16:55] <astron> sorry. i tried to find alex's efforts, but wasnt lucky so far [16:55] <ahmd__> try heading2 and 3 [16:56] <mirek> sorry for being so, so late [16:56] <ahmd__> hi mirek2 [16:56] <mirek> given how many of you are here, I assume you've started? [16:56] <mirek> hi everyone [16:57] <ahmd__> we are discussing the default Writer template [16:57] <mirek> ok, cool [17:00] <ahmd__> do you know where can i find code for default template? [17:00] <astron> i think you could ask cedric... [17:01] <astron> but i think there was a way to just use a normal template instead of the hardcoded values [17:03] <mirek> alex's efforts: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Are-you-okay-with-those-new-default-styles-td3989652.html [17:03] <astron> ah, thanks! [17:04] <mirek> :) you're welcome [17:05] <astron> mind you, there were a few things, most people didn't like about it: * colour – thats a bit expressive for the default template * too different headline sizes * etc. [17:06] <mirek> ahmd__: you're clearly motivated to make a new default template, so how about you send a proposal to the list and we'll judge it then? [17:06] <mirek> a couple of rules, though: [17:06] <mirek> * must be black-and-white, for printing purposes [17:07] <mirek> * must use the Liberation fonts, for compatibility purposes [17:07] <mirek> (the fonts have the same metrics as Arial, Times New Roman, and Courier so that the document layout is the same on every machine) [17:08] <mirek> * in general, it must be print-friendly (e.g. no flashing text :) ) [17:09] <ahmd__> ok, i'll make two templates and send it to the design list [17:10] <mirek> sounds good :) [17:10] <astron> btw, ahmd__: what do you think is so wrong about the current h2 and h3? (not that i love them, but what sticks out to you?) [17:11] <ahmd__> astron247: you can't decide priority between them (which one is higher) [17:12] <ahmd__> actually h3 feels h2 and vice versa [17:12] <astron> ok. right [17:13] <astron> if one of them weren't bold, it would indeed help [17:13] <astron> especially because bold italics are a bit nasty anyway [17:14] <ahmd__> try to make h1: 24px bold, h2: 19px bold, h3: 16px bold, h4: 13px bold [17:14] <ahmd__> this is what i think about for headings [17:15] <ahmd__> and what about having 11 heading levels? there is nothing on Earth that uses 11 heading levels [17:18] <mirek> I agree [17:19] <ahmd_> agree on? [17:19] <mirek> if you look at the current state, though, the last few levels aren't differentiated in any way [17:19] <mirek> agree that 11 may be a bit too many [17:20] <mirek> on the other hand, though, you never know... [17:21] <mirek> anyway, perhaps we should move to a different topic? [17:22] <ahmd_> ok [17:22] <mirek> astron247: have you been attending ESC calls? [17:23] <astron> no [17:23] <mirek> alright [17:23] <astron> but i should be next week [17:23] <mirek> ok, sounds good [17:23] <mirek> issa, how is the icon pack going? [17:24] <mirek> have you asked about packaging it in unstable builds? [17:24] <issa> not yet [17:25] <mirek> ok [17:25] <issa> I don't think anyone would refuse it tbh, but I'm just waiting for a more polished state [17:25] <issa> at least for the shapes [17:25] <mirek> how are the shapes doing? [17:26] <mirek> have they been updated from what I saw last? [17:26] <issa> no [17:26] <mirek> ok [17:26] <issa> Norah needs more specific comments about each of them [17:26] <issa> I will need to go through them one by one soon [17:27] <mirek> honestly, I might prefer to just tweak them myself [17:27] <mirek> when/if I have time [17:28] <mirek> (trying to explain exactly what my issues are with a certain icon often feels harder to me) [17:28] <issa> if you have time within the next two weeks or so that would be great [17:28] <mirek> on the topic of icons, I don't suppose there's anyone who would like to pick up on the orphaned Tango testing icons [17:29] <mirek> or at least encourage others to do so [17:29] <mirek> the pack could be pushed in portion by portion [17:30] <mirek> I was thinking we could get the shapes done first [17:30] <mirek> as those should be the simplest in this case [17:31] <issa> I'm pretty full at the moment, and I'm not really fond of them [17:31] <mirek> of the Tango testing icons in general, or just the shape icons? [17:31] <mirek> the shape icons in particular are, imho, much better than the current set [17:32] <issa> the Tango testing icons [17:33] <mirek> ok [17:33] <mirek> I'm not fond of some of them either [17:34] <mirek> but, then again, I'm not that fond of the current set [17:36] <mirek> so, no takers for the task, I guess... [17:36] <issa> the shading on the icons containing letters in particular is bad [17:36] <mirek> any other topics to cover? [17:36] <issa> while we are on icons.. [17:36] <issa> I did label the latest batch of icons I made for impress http://i.imgur.com/NbA8A35.png [17:37] <mirek> the sizing seems a bit inconsistent [17:38] <mirek> for example, compare undo/redo with some of the icons on the left [17:39] <mirek> maybe that's just me, though... [17:39] <mirek> other than that, they seem quite good :) [17:40] <issa> I don't like the line icon but didn't what else to use (far left) [17:41] <mirek> yeah, you're right, that should be different [17:41] <issa> any suggestions? [17:41] <mirek> (the icon looks good, but it should represent the pen tool, not the stroke) [17:42] <issa> (the icon looks good because it's straight from Inkscape :p) [17:42] <mirek> :) [17:43] <mirek> perhaps just a line? [17:43] <mirek> with a wrench next to it? [17:44] <mirek> (the wrench represents "options" in the Gnome icon set) [17:45] <mirek> (for example, in the new Gnome PDF viewer, the Document options menu is represented by a document page and a wrench to the right of it) [17:45] <issa> I doubt it would look good, but I'll try [17:46] <mirek> rather than next to it, perhaps I should have said overlaying it [17:46] <mirek> take a look at the Document Options icon before doing the line icon [17:47] <issa> I did use these for the character and paragraph icons respectively http://i.imm.io/18MtG.png [17:48] <mirek> the wrench you're using doesn't seem like gnome's [17:49] <mirek> could you replace it for Gnome's? [17:49] <mirek> also, perhaps the wrench could overlay the symbols? [17:50] <astron> mirek2: it already slightly overlays the "a" in the first version [17:50] <astron> i wouldnt overdo it so much that you cant recognise the a anymore [17:50] <issa> astron247: exactly [17:51] <mirek> touché, though I would still say that it could be a bit higher [17:51] <issa> I actually wanted to add it to the line and area icons but they weren't recognizable anymore [17:51] <issa> the wrench is from gnome but it was part of another icon, didn't know about the one you are talking about [17:52] <mirek> if you have the gnome-stencils.svg file from the gnome-icon-theme-symbolic github repo, the icon I'm talking about is at the end of the second row [17:54] <issa> I don't have it now but I'll check it later [17:54] <mirek> btw, here's how Expression Design portrays fill/outline: http://www.grafika.cz/old-idif/grafika/images6/expression_web3_04.png [17:55] <mirek> fill is a large filled rectangle while outline is an empty rectangle with a very thick stroke [17:57] <issa> but it's called "area" [17:57] <mirek> isn't it the same thing, though? [17:57] <mirek> just noticed Inkscape has icons for outline and fill as well [17:58] <mirek> on its tabs [17:58] <mirek> rectangles as well [17:59] <issa> I suppose, but I mean it's both fill and outline [18:00] <mirek> "area" seems to only concern the fill [18:01] <mirek> "line" seems to only concern the outline [18:01] <mirek> they're just different names [18:01] <mirek> or am I missing something? [18:03] <issa> right [18:04] <issa> ok makes sense [18:06] <mirek> any comments about the icons from anyone else? [18:07] <astron> hm, the raster icon is weird, i think [18:07] <astron> (display gird) [18:08] <astron> it looks fuzzy and different from the others [18:10] <issa> I don't see it [18:10] <issa> it's different because it's the only one with single pixels [18:10] <astron> right [18:11] <mirek> I like it [18:11] <mirek> if you have a different vision for it, though, perhaps you could propose a different one? [18:12] <astron> how about using the lighter grey colour for the lines and the darker for the edges? [18:14] <issa> sure, will try that [18:14] <astron> just an idea [18:14] <astron> thanks [18:14] <mirek> sounds good [18:15] <mirek> anything else with the icons? [18:15] <astron> hm, i guess there is the issue with the zoom and search icon being the same..? [18:16] <issa> like this http://i.imm.io/18MFt.png [18:16] <issa> (I missed one pixel!) [18:17] <astron> hm, can you do solid instead of dashed lines? [18:18] <astron> (i mean for the lighter lines) [18:18] <issa> but the grid is actually dotted [18:18] <astron> ok. right. [18:19] <astron> still can you try? [18:23] <astron> (just tried it, though very inexactly, and it looks okayisher to me) [18:24] <issa> http://i.imm.io/18MIx.png [18:24] <issa> I don't like it [18:25] <mirek> I prefer the previous one as well [18:26] <astron> ok. then im alone in this, i guess. [18:27] <astron> also, the inside (the compass needle) of the navigator icon looks too little like a triangle to me somehow [18:33] <issa> what do you propose? [18:34] <astron> not really sure here [18:34] <astron> just pointing out theres a legibility problem [18:35] <mirek> an eyeglass with a + or a -? [18:35] <mirek> a + seems to be most common: http://thenounproject.com/noun/zoom/#icon-No1669 [18:36] <issa> mirek2: we're talking about the navigator (the one left of zoom) [18:36] <mirek> oh, sorry [18:36] <mirek> seems like we skipped over the zoom icon, though [18:36] <astron> (but the zoom icon is another issue) [18:37] <astron> yes ... [18:37] <mirek> I find the Navigator icon acceptable, but I agree it could use improvements [18:37] <mirek> I'd leave it as is for now, though [18:37] <mirek> and focus on the other icons [18:37] <mirek> perhaps, in time, someone will come along and make it better [18:39] <mirek> as for zoom metaphors, in sliders, Apple employs a small shape on one end and then a visibly larger one on the other [18:39] <mirek> don't see a practical way of utilizing that metaphor in a square icon, though [18:40] <astron> hm, no. me neither [18:40] <astron> but the < and > in the icon are actually a good idea [18:41] <mirek> ok [18:41] <mirek> issa: does that sound doable? [18:41] <issa> I didn't quite get it [18:41] <astron> (its from the the noun project page mirek linked to) [18:41] <astron> not my idea [18:43] <issa> you're saying this for the page width icon? [18:43] <mirek> for the zoom icon [18:43] <issa> oh [18:44] <issa> I don't quite get it but it should be doable [18:44] <astron> well, the issue is, that the zoom and search icon would look the same otherwise [18:44] <issa> true [18:45] <issa> sorry all but I have to leave now [18:45] <astron> ok. [18:45] <astron> we should finish anyway, i think [18:45] <issa> you should possibly discuss the latest color picker [18:46] <issa> bye [18:46] <mirek> hi mahfiaz [18:47] <mahfiaz> hi mirek2 [18:47] <mirek> any topic that you'd like to discuss? [18:48] <mahfiaz> nope, I just came to see if you have already done for today [18:48] <mirek> astron247: would you like to discuss the color picker? [18:48] <mirek> personally, I'd like to put it off until issa is here [18:48] <mirek> as he designed the latest tentative design [18:49] <mirek> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Color_Picker [18:49] <astron> i havent really looked at it, so... [18:49] <mirek> next week, then? [18:50] <astron> i suppose [18:50] <mirek> ok [18:50] <mirek> is Sunday good for you next week? [18:50] <astron> probably not. [18:50] <mirek> and Saturday? [18:51] <astron> maybe [18:51] <mirek> the thing is, I won't be able to attend Saturday... [18:51] <mirek> ... but I don't like the chat being moved because of me [18:53] <mirek> so if you're able to attend on Saturday, perhaps you could lead the chat next week? [18:53] <astron> ok. lets see [18:54] <astron> i can try to. [18:54] <mirek> alright [18:55] <mirek> could you announce on the list that the next chat will be on Saturday again? :) [18:55] <astron> lets tentatively do it saturday, if no one shows up, well do it sunday [18:55] <mirek> alright [18:55] <astron> mirek2: ok [18:56] <mirek> it seems like we're done for today [18:56] <mirek> astron247: given that you've been here longest today, could you put up the log? [18:56] <astron> shall i put up the log? [18:56] <astron> ok... then [18:56] <mirek> :) thanks [18:56] <astron> bye