Design/Meetings/2013-06-09

    From The Document Foundation Wiki

    Cast (in order of appearance)

    • issa
    • astron
    • ahmd
    • mirek2
    • mahfiaz

    Topics

    • Writer default template
    • Flat Icons

    Log

    [16:08] <issa> hello astron
    [16:10] <ahmd_> hello
    [16:10] <issa> hello ahmd
    [16:12] <astron> hi
    [16:13] <ahmd_> astron247: I was discussing with issa the default theme of Writer
    [16:13] <astron> oh ok
    [16:14] <ahmd_> I've noticed many wrong things in the paragraph spacing, default fonts, headings sizes
    [16:15] <ahmd_> it doesn't look professional
    [16:16] <ahmd_> and I believe this is an easy win for Writer if we got it right
    [16:16] <astron> ah ... we had this topic before.
    [16:17] <astron> so, for the default fonts, we can only do so much – it is supposed to always look right, and to this day i believe the only fonts that are always installed with libo are the liberation fonts
    [16:18] <ahmd_> yes, i agree with you
    [16:18] <astron> (because linux vendors like to package everything separately and tend to not ship the newer fonts weve added to libo)
    [16:18] <ahmd_> but what should be the default, sans-serif or serif?
    [16:19] <astron> that said, i think some things used to be hard-coded somewhere
    [16:19] <astron> ahmd_: well, i cant really say. its up to whoever does the default template
    [16:20] <astron> but the way it is, and the way many people still do it: you pick a sans for the headlines and a serif for the text
    [16:20] <astron> but theres not really a way to get it right in all circumstances
    [16:21] <astron> (ie screen text is often quite the opposite – because of the low resolution of most screens)
    [16:21] <ahmd_> i think sans is better to be the default
    [16:22] <ahmd_> because it works on the screen and on the paper
    [16:22] <ahmd_> not like sans-serif which look a bit noisy on screen
    [16:23] <ahmd_> sorry serif
    [16:23] <ahmd_> i can see most word processors now are using sans as default font
    [16:24] <astron> at the same time, it might only be two to three years until high resolution displays (think, retina macbooks, tablets) are widespread (at least in the western world)
    [16:27] <astron> so ... i dont really know
    [16:29] <ahmd__> what do you think, should we proceed and have sans as the default font for paragraphs?
    [16:30] <astron> ahmd_: i cant really tell you. although i believe liberation serif is quite robust in screen settings
    [16:31] <astron> and i can tell you that i like liberation sans even less than arial (which it is supposed to copy).
    [16:31] <ahmd__> issa?
    [16:31] <astron> issa: oh good
    [16:32] <issa> I prefer a serif font because it looks more elegant in both print and pdf documents
    [16:33] <issa> (and I'd say that's where you would encounter most documents produced by writer)
    [16:35] <astron> issa: liberation serif isnt really elegant, its more of a workhorse serif if you will...
    [16:36] <issa> well compared to liberation sans anyway
    [16:36] <astron> right
    [16:36] <issa> (I've never used them much tbh)
    [16:39] <astron> right. after all, they are replacement fonts for arial and times new roman, first and foremost
    [16:40] <ahmd__> ok, so do we leave the default paragraph font as serif?
    [16:41] <astron> i dont know. you may want to try both and put it on the list..?
    [16:42] <astron> btw: ahmd__, are you one of the kacst people?
    [16:43] <ahmd__> yes :)
    [16:43] <astron> ok.
    [16:45] <astron> is there actually any sort of sans/serif distinction in arabic? or anything that replaces it?
    [16:45] <issa> no proper distinction
    [16:45] <astron> ok
    [16:50] <astron> anyway, alexander wilms had started on a new default writer template before.
    [16:50] <astron> not sure if you already knew this
    [16:51] <ahmd__> did he finish it?
    [16:51] <astron> not really.
    [16:53] <ahmd__> regardless default font, there are other important issues
    [16:55] <ahmd__> paragraphs are not separated by default, headings,...
    [16:55] <astron> yes.
    [16:55] <astron> sorry. i tried to find alex's efforts, but wasnt lucky so far
    [16:55] <ahmd__> try heading2 and 3
    [16:56] <mirek> sorry for being so, so late
    [16:56] <ahmd__> hi mirek2 
    [16:56] <mirek> given how many of you are here, I assume you've started?
    [16:56] <mirek> hi everyone
    [16:57] <ahmd__> we are discussing the default Writer template
    [16:57] <mirek> ok, cool
    [17:00] <ahmd__> do you know where can i find code for default template?
    [17:00] <astron> i think you could ask cedric...
    [17:01] <astron> but i think there was a way to just use a normal template instead of the hardcoded values
    [17:03] <mirek> alex's efforts: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Are-you-okay-with-those-new-default-styles-td3989652.html
    [17:03] <astron> ah, thanks!
    [17:04] <mirek> :) you're welcome
    [17:05] <astron> mind you, there were a few things, most people didn't like about it:
    * colour – thats a bit expressive for the default template
    * too different headline sizes
    * etc.
    [17:06] <mirek> ahmd__: you're clearly motivated to make a new default template, so how about you send a proposal to the list and we'll judge it then?
    [17:06] <mirek> a couple of rules, though:
    [17:06] <mirek> * must be black-and-white, for printing purposes
    [17:07] <mirek> * must use the Liberation fonts, for compatibility purposes
    [17:07] <mirek> (the fonts have the same metrics as Arial, Times New Roman, and Courier so that the document layout is the same on every machine)
    [17:08] <mirek> * in general, it must be print-friendly (e.g. no flashing text :) )
    [17:09] <ahmd__> ok, i'll make two templates and send it to the design list
    [17:10] <mirek> sounds good :)
    [17:10] <astron> btw, ahmd__: what do you think is so wrong about the current h2 and h3? (not that i love them, but what sticks out to you?)
    [17:11] <ahmd__> astron247: you can't decide priority between them (which one is higher)
    [17:12] <ahmd__> actually h3 feels h2 and vice versa
    [17:12] <astron> ok. right
    [17:13] <astron> if one of them weren't bold, it would indeed help
    [17:13] <astron> especially because bold italics are a bit nasty anyway
    [17:14] <ahmd__> try to make h1: 24px bold, h2: 19px bold, h3: 16px bold, h4: 13px bold
    [17:14] <ahmd__> this is what i think about for headings
    [17:15] <ahmd__> and what about having 11 heading levels? there is nothing on Earth that uses 11 heading levels
    [17:18] <mirek> I agree
    [17:19] <ahmd_> agree on?
    [17:19] <mirek> if you look at the current state, though, the last few levels aren't differentiated in any way
    [17:19] <mirek> agree that 11 may be a bit too many
    [17:20] <mirek> on the other hand, though, you never know...
    [17:21] <mirek> anyway, perhaps we should move to a different topic?
    [17:22] <ahmd_> ok
    [17:22] <mirek> astron247: have you been attending ESC calls?
    [17:23] <astron> no
    [17:23] <mirek> alright
    [17:23] <astron> but i should be next week
    [17:23] <mirek> ok, sounds good
    [17:23] <mirek> issa, how is the icon pack going?
    [17:24] <mirek> have you asked about packaging it in unstable builds?
    [17:24] <issa> not yet
    [17:25] <mirek> ok
    [17:25] <issa> I don't think anyone would refuse it tbh, but I'm just waiting for a more polished state
    [17:25] <issa> at least for the shapes
    [17:25] <mirek> how are the shapes doing?
    [17:26] <mirek> have they been updated from what I saw last?
    [17:26] <issa> no
    [17:26] <mirek> ok
    [17:26] <issa> Norah needs more specific comments about each of them
    [17:26] <issa> I will need to go through them one by one soon
    [17:27] <mirek> honestly, I might prefer to just tweak them myself
    [17:27] <mirek> when/if I have time
    [17:28] <mirek> (trying to explain exactly what my issues are with a certain icon often feels harder to me)
    [17:28] <issa> if you have time within the next two weeks or so that would be great
    [17:28] <mirek> on the topic of icons, I don't suppose there's anyone who would like to pick up on the orphaned Tango testing icons
    [17:29] <mirek> or at least encourage others to do so
    [17:29] <mirek> the pack could be pushed in portion by portion
    [17:30] <mirek> I was thinking we could get the shapes done first
    [17:30] <mirek> as those should be the simplest in this case
    [17:31] <issa> I'm pretty full at the moment, and I'm not really fond of them
    [17:31] <mirek> of the Tango testing icons in general, or just the shape icons?
    [17:31] <mirek> the shape icons in particular are, imho, much better than the current set
    [17:32] <issa> the Tango testing icons
    [17:33] <mirek> ok
    [17:33] <mirek> I'm not fond of some of them either
    [17:34] <mirek> but, then again, I'm not that fond of the current set
    [17:36] <mirek> so, no takers for the task, I guess...
    [17:36] <issa> the shading on the icons containing letters in particular is bad
    [17:36] <mirek> any other topics to cover?
    [17:36] <issa> while we are on icons..
    [17:36] <issa> I did label the latest batch of icons I made for impress http://i.imgur.com/NbA8A35.png
    [17:37] <mirek> the sizing seems a bit inconsistent
    [17:38] <mirek> for example, compare undo/redo with some of the icons on the left
    [17:39] <mirek> maybe that's just me, though...
    [17:39] <mirek> other than that, they seem quite good :)
    [17:40] <issa> I don't like the line icon but didn't what else to use (far left)
    [17:41] <mirek> yeah, you're right, that should be different
    [17:41] <issa> any suggestions?
    [17:41] <mirek> (the icon looks good, but it should represent the pen tool, not the stroke)
    [17:42] <issa> (the icon looks good because it's straight from Inkscape :p)
    [17:42] <mirek> :)
    [17:43] <mirek> perhaps just a line?
    [17:43] <mirek> with a wrench next to it?
    [17:44] <mirek> (the wrench represents "options" in the Gnome icon set)
    [17:45] <mirek> (for example, in the new Gnome PDF viewer, the Document options menu is represented by a document page and a wrench to the right of it)
    [17:45] <issa> I doubt it would look good, but I'll try
    [17:46] <mirek> rather than next to it, perhaps I should have said overlaying it
    [17:46] <mirek> take a look at the Document Options icon before doing the line icon
    [17:47] <issa> I did use these for the character and paragraph icons respectively http://i.imm.io/18MtG.png
    [17:48] <mirek> the wrench you're using doesn't seem like gnome's
    [17:49] <mirek> could you replace it for Gnome's?
    [17:49] <mirek> also, perhaps the wrench could overlay the symbols?
    [17:50] <astron> mirek2: it already slightly overlays the "a" in the first version
    [17:50] <astron> i wouldnt overdo it so much that you cant recognise the a anymore
    [17:50] <issa> astron247: exactly
    [17:51] <mirek> touché, though I would still say that it could be a bit higher
    [17:51] <issa> I actually wanted to add it to the line and area icons but they weren't recognizable anymore
    [17:51] <issa> the wrench is from gnome but it was part of another icon, didn't know about the one you are talking about
    [17:52] <mirek> if you have the gnome-stencils.svg file from the gnome-icon-theme-symbolic github repo, the icon I'm talking about is at the end of the second row
    [17:54] <issa> I don't have it now but I'll check it later
    [17:54] <mirek> btw, here's how Expression Design portrays fill/outline: http://www.grafika.cz/old-idif/grafika/images6/expression_web3_04.png
    [17:55] <mirek> fill is a large filled rectangle while outline is an empty rectangle with a very thick stroke
    [17:57] <issa> but it's called "area"
    [17:57] <mirek> isn't it the same thing, though?
    [17:57] <mirek> just noticed Inkscape has icons for outline and fill as well
    [17:58] <mirek> on its tabs
    [17:58] <mirek> rectangles as well
    [17:59] <issa> I suppose, but I mean it's both fill and outline
    [18:00] <mirek> "area" seems to only concern the fill
    [18:01] <mirek> "line" seems to only concern the outline
    [18:01] <mirek> they're just different names
    [18:01] <mirek> or am I missing something?
    [18:03] <issa> right
    [18:04] <issa> ok makes sense
    [18:06] <mirek> any comments about the icons from anyone else?
    [18:07] <astron> hm, the raster icon is weird, i think
    [18:07] <astron> (display gird)
    [18:08] <astron> it looks fuzzy and different from the others
    [18:10] <issa> I don't see it
    [18:10] <issa> it's different because it's the only one with single pixels
    [18:10] <astron> right
    [18:11] <mirek> I like it
    [18:11] <mirek> if you have a different vision for it, though, perhaps you could propose a different one?
    [18:12] <astron> how about using the lighter grey colour for the lines and the darker for the edges?
    [18:14] <issa> sure, will try that
    [18:14] <astron> just an idea
    [18:14] <astron> thanks
    [18:14] <mirek> sounds good
    [18:15] <mirek> anything else with the icons?
    [18:15] <astron> hm, i guess there is the issue with the zoom and search icon being the same..?
    [18:16] <issa> like this http://i.imm.io/18MFt.png
    [18:16] <issa> (I missed one pixel!)
    [18:17] <astron> hm, can you do solid instead of dashed lines?
    [18:18] <astron> (i mean for the lighter lines)
    [18:18] <issa> but the grid is actually dotted
    [18:18] <astron> ok. right.
    [18:19] <astron> still can you try?
    [18:23] <astron> (just tried it, though very inexactly, and it looks okayisher to me)
    [18:24] <issa> http://i.imm.io/18MIx.png
    [18:24] <issa> I don't like it
    [18:25] <mirek> I prefer the previous one as well
    [18:26] <astron> ok. then im alone in this, i guess.
    [18:27] <astron> also, the inside (the compass needle) of the navigator icon looks too little like a triangle to me somehow
    [18:33] <issa> what do you propose?
    [18:34] <astron> not really sure here
    [18:34] <astron> just pointing out theres a legibility problem
    [18:35] <mirek> an eyeglass with a + or a -?
    [18:35] <mirek> a + seems to be most common: http://thenounproject.com/noun/zoom/#icon-No1669
    [18:36] <issa> mirek2: we're talking about the navigator (the one left of zoom)
    [18:36] <mirek> oh, sorry
    [18:36] <mirek> seems like we skipped over the zoom icon, though
    [18:36] <astron> (but the zoom icon is another issue)
    [18:37] <astron> yes ... 
    [18:37] <mirek> I find the Navigator icon acceptable, but I agree it could use improvements
    [18:37] <mirek> I'd leave it as is for now, though
    [18:37] <mirek> and focus on the other icons
    [18:37] <mirek> perhaps, in time, someone will come along and make it better
    [18:39] <mirek> as for zoom metaphors, in sliders, Apple employs a small shape on one end and then a visibly larger one on the other
    [18:39] <mirek> don't see a practical way of utilizing that metaphor in a square icon, though
    [18:40] <astron> hm, no. me neither
    [18:40] <astron> but the < and > in the icon are actually a good idea
    [18:41] <mirek> ok
    [18:41] <mirek> issa: does that sound doable?
    [18:41] <issa> I didn't quite get it
    [18:41] <astron> (its from the the noun project page mirek linked to)
    [18:41] <astron> not my idea
    [18:43] <issa> you're saying this for the page width icon?
    [18:43] <mirek> for the zoom icon
    [18:43] <issa> oh
    [18:44] <issa> I don't quite get it but it should be doable
    [18:44] <astron> well, the issue is, that the zoom and search icon would look the same otherwise
    [18:44] <issa> true
    [18:45] <issa> sorry all but I have to leave now
    [18:45] <astron> ok.
    [18:45] <astron> we should finish anyway, i think
    [18:45] <issa> you should possibly discuss the latest color picker
    [18:46] <issa> bye
    [18:46] <mirek> hi mahfiaz
    [18:47] <mahfiaz> hi mirek2
    [18:47] <mirek> any topic that you'd like to discuss?
    [18:48] <mahfiaz> nope, I just came to see if you have already done for today
    [18:48] <mirek> astron247: would you like to discuss the color picker?
    [18:48] <mirek> personally, I'd like to put it off until issa is here
    [18:48] <mirek> as he designed the latest tentative design
    [18:49] <mirek> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Color_Picker
    [18:49] <astron> i havent really looked at it, so...
    [18:49] <mirek> next week, then?
    [18:50] <astron> i suppose
    [18:50] <mirek> ok
    [18:50] <mirek> is Sunday good for you next week?
    [18:50] <astron> probably not.
    [18:50] <mirek> and Saturday?
    [18:51] <astron> maybe
    [18:51] <mirek> the thing is, I won't be able to attend Saturday...
    [18:51] <mirek> ... but I don't like the chat being moved because of me
    [18:53] <mirek> so if you're able to attend on Saturday, perhaps you could lead the chat next week?
    [18:53] <astron> ok. lets see
    [18:54] <astron> i can try to.
    [18:54] <mirek> alright
    [18:55] <mirek> could you announce on the list that the next chat will be on Saturday again? :)
    [18:55] <astron> lets tentatively do it saturday, if no one shows up, well do it sunday
    [18:55] <mirek> alright
    [18:55] <astron> mirek2: ok
    [18:56] <mirek> it seems like we're done for today
    [18:56] <mirek> astron247: given that you've been here longest today, could you put up the log?
    [18:56] <astron> shall i put up the log?
    [18:56] <astron> ok... then
    [18:56] <mirek> :) thanks
    [18:56] <astron> bye