Design/Meetings/2013-06-16

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    Cast (in order of appearance)

    • ahmd
    • issa
    • mirek2
    • astron

    Topics

    • Toolbars and sidebars
    • "Certified developers" badges
    • QA contest banner
    • Android port

    Log

    [16:11] <mirek2> issa_: any icon updates?
[16:12] <issa_> yes, I merged them with the libo master code
[16:12] <issa_> now everyone could try them
[16:12] <mirek2> great! :)
[16:12] <mirek2> what about the shape icons?
[16:12] <issa_> astron is on a train so he might be having connection issues
[16:13] <mirek2> oh, ok
[16:13] <issa_> didn't Norah contact you about them?
[16:13] <issa_> since you offered to help and I'm currently in Hamburg I
told her to email you!
[16:14] <mirek2> just asked for commit access
[16:15] <issa_> so can you still edit them or not?
[16:15] <mirek2> I don't see them in the repo
[16:16] <issa_> I'll email you the svg
[16:16] <issa_> (I don't think I can upload to the repo from this device)
[16:16] <mirek2> I'd rather Norah put the icons up herself
[16:16] <issa_> alright then
[16:17] <mirek2> any other news?
[16:17] <mirek2> or thoughts/ideas?
[16:17] <issa_> not really
[16:18] <mirek2> ok
[16:18] <issa_> I've discussed the toolbars and sidebar with kendy but it
was more of a general discussion without any conclusions
[16:19] <mirek2> what's your stance? what's kendy's stance?
[16:20] <issa_> I kinda wanted to get rid of the menubar and replace it
with the hidden items menu but he was against it
[16:20] <mirek2> I would say the suite has to evolve naturally
[16:20] <issa_> (not completely rid but make it hidden by default)
[16:20] <mirek2> right
[16:21] <mirek2> I would agree with you on that as a vision, but I think
it's a bit early right now
[16:21] <mirek2> given that none of the stuff that would replace the need
for a menubar is implemented yet
[16:21] <issa_> yes I was talking about the big picture since they aren't
implemented yet
[16:22] <issa_> also it seems like the sidebar is replicating the other
context sensitive toolbar
[16:22] <issa_> so I guess once the sidebar is good to go we'll only have
the standard toolbar on top
[16:23] <mirek2> that I wouldn't like
[16:23] <mirek2> I don't think it's a good thing to replace the contextual
toolbar with the sidebar for a variety of reasons
[16:24] <mirek2> (should I list some of them?)
[16:24] <issa_> no I get it
[16:25] <mirek2> ok :)
[16:25] <mirek2> tbh, if anything, I'd rather get rid of the contextual
part of the sidebar
[16:25] <mirek2> what do you think about the sidebar as is?
[16:26] <mirek2> and, if you're running a nightly, do you use it at all?
[16:26] <issa_> it's kind of nice, but I have no idea if it's useful
[16:26] <issa_> I don't really use LibreOffice so I have no idea :p
[16:26] <mirek2> :)
[16:26] <mirek2> what do you use?
[16:27] <mirek2> (I'm just curious)
[16:28] <issa_> nothing, I rarely need to use office applications
[16:28] <mirek2> yeah, me too
[16:28] <issa_> when I'm writing text I'll use notepad or gedit because I
don't really need the extra formatting
[16:29] <mirek2> me too
[16:31] <mirek2> imo, word processors today put too much focus on the
chrome, not enough on the content
[16:31] <issa_> true
[16:33] <mirek2> I like that I'm seeing more and more markdown
[16:33] <mirek2> e.g. at
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/johnonolan/ghost-just-a-blogging-platform/posts
[16:33] <issa_> I guess that's why most people use Google docs since
they're web based and minimalistic
[16:34] <mirek2> Docs has a lot of good going for it
[16:34] <mirek2> the UX is pretty excellent
[16:34] <mirek2> it's under-appreciated, I would say
[16:35] <mirek2> they just get a lot of details right
[16:35] <mirek2> for example, take font selection:
[16:36] <mirek2> you get just a handful of high-quality fonts to choose from
[16:36] <mirek2> and you can add and remove fonts using a dialog that's
accessible right from the font chooser
[16:37] <mirek2> I also like that they show styles based on context
[16:37] <mirek2> (i.e. at first, they only show heading 1, once you've used
it, they also show heading 2, etc.)
[16:37] <issa_> but I guess we are currently focusing on replace MS Office,
maybe our web version could replace Google docs
[16:38] <mirek2> that's one of the things that disappoints me most about
LibreOffice
[16:38] <mirek2> the development is very competition-centered
[16:38] <issa_> you can't really blame them
[16:38] <mirek2> it's not exactly goal-driven
[16:38] <mirek2> issa_: why not?
[16:39] <mirek2> being competiton-driven just holds you back...
[16:39] <issa_> because our main goal is to offer a FOSS equivalent of MS
Office
[16:39] <issa_> not really, we have a lot of new features
[16:40] <mirek2> IDK
[16:40] <mirek2> probably
[16:40] <mirek2> issa_: in the eyes of some developers...
[16:40] <mirek2> in my eyes, it's to provide an excellent set of creation
tools
[16:41] <mirek2> office compatibility is just a feature, in my eyes
[16:41] <issa_> it's a killer feature
[16:41] <mirek2> yup
[16:41] <mirek2> but there's a difference
[16:42] <mirek2> the goal of iWork isn't to be an alternative to MS Office
[16:42] <mirek2> the goal of Drive isn't that either
[16:43] <mirek2> iWork started out with Keynote, because, for Steve Jobs,
there wasn't any good presentation software on the market
[16:44] <mirek2> Pages started out primarily as a desktop publishing tool,
only later did formatting features gain more prominence
[16:44] <mirek2> and Numbers is a very different beast from Excel
[16:44] <issa_> I've never tried it tbh
[16:45] <mirek2> I've only used a trial version, and only a little bit
[16:45] <mirek2> still, iWork maintains Office compatibility, but it isn't
chained to what Office does
[16:45] <mirek2> it goes its own path
[16:45] <issa_> true
[16:46] <mirek2> that's what I'd like LibreOffice to do
[16:46] <mirek2> just focus on helping people create stuff
[16:46] <mirek2> forget about the competition
[16:46] <mirek2> (though, sure, maintain compatibility)
[16:47] <issa_> but it's harder since LibreOffice is pretty much lead by
developers
[16:47] <issa_> that's why the design needs a lot of work
[16:48] <issa_> (let alone creating our own path)
[16:49] <mirek2> I feel like that's not the problem, though
[16:49] <issa_> what is it then?
[16:50] <mirek2> the problem, imho, is the mindset that we should follow
what Office or another piece of software does
[16:50] <mirek2> it's this focus on competition rather than on the purpose
of the software
[16:51] <mirek2> let me draw a comparison:
[16:53] <mirek2> if the Firefox team had the same mindset when they were
creating Firefox, they'd be  very focused on making sure all the IE quirks
were being rendered the same way in Firefox as well
[16:54] <issa_> hmm true
[16:55] <mirek2> anyway, I guess we've swerved way off-topic... :)
[16:55] <mirek2> any topic that you'd really like to discuss today?
[16:56] <issa_> you wanted to discuss the color picker while I'm here no?
[16:57] <mirek2> I'd like to discuss it with astron around as well
[16:57] <issa_> ok
[16:57] <issa_> I discussed it with him yesterday and he seemed to agree
for the most part
[16:57] <mirek2> ok
[16:58] <mirek2> it's not a pressing problem, though
[16:58] <mirek2> as nobody's offered to work on it
[16:58] <issa_> hmmm
[16:59] <mirek2> what?
[16:59] <mirek2> do you know of someone that would like to hack on it?
[16:59] <issa_> nothing, I was wondering if I should ask the guys here at
the hackfest if they knew someone who'd do it
[17:00] <mirek2> sure, go ahead
[17:00] <mirek2> it's a big project, though
[17:01] <issa_> yeah
[17:02] <mirek2> are you asking now or should we continue with the chat?
[17:02] == astron [2e736604@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.115.102.4] has
joined #libreoffice-design
[17:03] <issa_> we should continue, they are discussing other things
[17:03] <mirek2> astron: could you give an esc update?
[17:03] <astron> not sure how long the 3g will allow me to stay this time
[17:04] <mirek2> ok, just say whatever's important, or pick a topic and
we'll discuss it
[17:04] <astron> ok, most important thing: there will be a ux-advise
component in bugzilla
[17:04] <mirek2> ok
[17:05] <astron> and the ux-advise list will mostly be used for automatedly
collecting bugzilla comments from this component
[17:05] <astron> so, developers (or anyone else, but thats discouraged)
will be able to file bugs under this component
[17:05] <astron> then the list will be notified
[17:05] <mirek2> ok
[17:06] <mirek2> sounds reasonable
[17:06] <astron> the advantage is that its easily queriable which problems
arent solved yet
[17:06] <astron> we sadly have to use a component, otherwise the thing with
sending mails wouldnt work
[17:06] <mirek2> ok
[17:08] <mirek2> that's fine
[17:10] <astron_>  what did you discuss so far?
[17:11] <mirek2> just LibreOffice and UI in general
[17:11] <astron_> ok
[17:11] <mirek2> you can read it afterwards
[17:11] <astron_> sure –
[17:12] <mirek2> if you're really curious: http://piratepad.net/wNykNwK5bM
[17:12] <astron_> thanks. since k-j didnt seem to really want to drive the
"certified developers" badge discussion...
[17:12] <astron_> would anyone else like to do this?
[17:13] <mirek2> not me
[17:13] <issa_> I can do it
[17:13] <astron_> ok.
[17:13] <astron_> it shouldnt be too hard
[17:13] <astron_> i hope
[17:14] <astron_> the shields are a good start, i think – although its not
completely great that he already made them for about everything you can do
on the project
[17:14] <astron_> because the certified developers should be a little bit
different
[17:14] <issa_> yeah
[17:15] <astron_> ok – any input on the banner proposal?
[17:16] <issa_> it looks great
[17:16] <mirek2> where is it?
[17:17] <issa_> mirek2: no idea, he showed it to me in person :p
[17:17] <mirek2> :)
[17:18] <mirek2> there's no link in the design list thread
[17:19] == astron_ [2e737ad2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.115.122.210] has
quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
[17:19] <mirek2> :/
[17:21] <mirek2> I guess we should talk about something else for now?
[17:22] <issa_> sure, any ideas?
[17:23] == astron [2e7372dc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.115.114.220] has
joined #libreoffice-design
[17:23] <mirek2> astron: in case you missed it, I asked where the proposal
is
[17:24] <astron> ah... look at mails on the design list...
[17:24] <mirek2> astron: I don't see a link there
[17:24] <astron> fsck!
[17:25] <astron> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/87946285/libreoffice/qabanner/banner.html
[17:25] <astron> sorry – forgot the link in there…
[17:26] <mirek2> I like it, except for the "Learn more" button
[17:27] <mirek2> which:
[17:27] <mirek2> 1) I don't think is really necessary, given that all
banners link to a page with more info
[17:27] <mirek2> 2) has an odd shadow
[17:27] <astron> am i still here?
[17:28] <issa_> astron: yes :p
[17:29] <mirek2> 3) the on-hover change being confined to a small space
directs attention away from the main content
[17:29] <mirek2> (would be best to change the whole banner on hover, or at
least the main text)
[17:32] == astron [2e7372dc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.115.114.220] has
quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
[17:32] <mirek2> issa_: as for topics, we can choose one of those at
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards
[17:32] <mirek2> perhaps we could finally move on with the option sorting
stuff
[17:33] <mirek2> or do something about copying styles from templates
[17:33] <mirek2> which, I believe, Cédric wanted to work on
[17:33] == astron [~frootzowr@46.115.54.41] has joined
#libreoffice-design
[17:35] <mirek2> astron: any other topic you wanted to raise?
[17:35] <astron> hum, no, guess not
[17:35] <mirek2> ok
[17:35] <mirek2> any design requrests from devs?
[17:35] <mirek2> (from the conference)
[17:36] <astron> hehe... michael contacted me with some android things
[17:36] <astron> :)
[17:36] <mirek2> working on the remote stuff?
[17:36] <mirek2> or the android port stuff?
[17:36] <mirek2> cool :)
[17:36] <astron> android port
[17:36] <astron> well, the problem i have is how "fast" it all has to be
[17:37] <mirek2> is it a secret plan?
[17:37] <astron> it will basically be the same libo we know and ... uh
... whatever, but it will have some kind of window/tab manager builtin
[17:38] <mirek2> :(
[17:38] <mirek2> I'd rather they focus on getting the formatting features in
[17:38] <mirek2> devote to multitasking once that's part of the Android HIG
[17:38] <astron> but at first, of course we want the viewer to be there, still
[17:39] <mirek2> multi-windowing rather than multitasking
[17:40] <astron> mirek2: is multi-windowing planned for android?
[17:40] <mirek2> you never know
[17:40] <mirek2> but I assume it will come eventually
[17:41] <astron> hm, but it wouldnt really make sense to do it on the usual
10 in tablets
[17:41] <mirek2> do it the usual 10 in tablets?
[17:41] <astron> since finger-friendly title bars etc would have to be
quite large
[17:42] <mirek2> I would assume they might do something more along the
lines of what Windows 8 does
[17:42] <astron> hm... but thats nothing to do with "windows" really :)
[17:43] <astron> but yeah, given that windows 8.1 is supposed to be much
more flexible there, this might actually become useful
[17:43] <mirek2> I know
[17:44] <astron> (youll gain the option to split your screen 50:50 etc.)
[17:44] <mirek2> btw, Samsung already implements a multi-window environment
in its tablets (possibly just some of them)
[17:45] <astron> yeah.. samsung does lots of things
[17:45] <mirek2> yeah
[17:45] <mirek2> the thing is, though, I don't see much of a use for tabs
in LibreOffice
[17:46] <mirek2> tabs are useful when you need to constantly switch between
several things
[17:46] <astron> they throw lots of things out on the market to see what
sticks and what doesnt :)
[17:46] <mirek2> that's the nice thing about Android, though
[17:47] <mirek2> how moldable it is
[17:47] <mirek2> similar thing with Linux and its various desktops
[17:47] <astron> ok... going back to the button discussion. did you have
any advise for me how to do it better?
[17:49] <mirek2> astron: yeah: remove the "Learn more" button; apply an
on-hover effect over the whole area or over the main content, so focus
doesn't shift
[17:49] <astron> did you say anything?
[17:49] <mirek2> no
[17:50] <mirek2> (not while you were gone)
[17:53] <mirek2> astron: could you post some of the details from the
Android discussion?
[17:53] <mirek2> or encourage Michael to do so?
[17:53] <mirek2> would be good to see
[17:54] <mirek2> as for multi-windowing/tabbing, I'd really prefer at least
some basic formatting functions first
[17:57] <astron> sure...
[17:58] <mirek2> thanks :)
[17:58] <astron> as i said, well have everything immediately ...
[17:58] <astron> so, if your fingers are small enough, formatting wont
be a problem
[17:58] <mirek2> "have everything immediately"?
[17:59] <astron> the whole of libreoffice
[17:59] <mirek2> LibreOffice without Android-specific theming
[17:59] <mirek2> will that be released officially?
[18:01] <mirek2> so if we'll have it without Android-specific theming at
first, at least we can work on making the desktop version touch-friendly
[18:01] <astron> sure
[18:02] <mirek2> I'll post the log after you confirm that it wasn't
[18:02] <astron> well, the sifr (flat icons) should be easy to make
larger at least
[18:03] <astron> and the toolbar may be android native actually
[18:03] <mirek2> hm, can't really imagine it
[18:03] <mirek2> will menus be there?
[18:03] <mirek2> if so, that would be a really, really odd match-up
[18:04] <astron> basically, the model will be to have a ui thread that
is basically receiving image data from a libo thread, so scrolling etc works
reasonably responsive
[18:05] <astron> ok ... have to get off the train now
[18:05] <mirek2> ok, talk to you later
[18:05] <mirek2> and please send details to the ml

    Note: small parts of this log have been amended. Also, in the statement at [18:04], "sending" has been replaced by "receiving" for correctness.

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