Design/Meetings/2013-08-10

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Attendees

  • elixir
  • mirek2

Topics

  • Hidden items menu
  • Toolbar justification
  • Icon labels

Log

[16:28] <elixir> Hi mirek2_
[16:29] <mirek2_> hello
[16:29] <mirek2_> how's the GSoC going?
[16:30] <elixir> So, I have completed the hidden task implementation [till the point kendy asked me to do].
[16:30] <elixir> https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/5296/ is pushed now
[16:30] <elixir> You can see what the patch does in its description in the above link.
[16:30] <mirek2_> it should show up always, not just when the window size is decreased
[16:31] <mirek2_> could you make it work like that?
[16:31] <elixir> Okay, I asked kendy for that. He told me that it may be a bit annoying. But ofcourse, it can be done :)
[16:32] <mirek2_> well, if you simply remove all the hidden items from the toolbar, the menu shouldn't appear
[16:32] <mirek2_> (i.e. if there are no hidden items to show, the >> should work as it does now)
[16:33] <elixir> Yeah, that is one of the aspect of the implementation.
[16:33] <elixir> So, should there be an icon to *always* show the hidden items?
[16:33] <elixir> Like the one I shoed in my proposal?
[16:34] <elixir> s/shoed/showed
[16:34] <mirek2_> could you provide a link?
[16:34] <mirek2_> http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/proposal/review/google/gsoc2013/elixir3192/1
[16:34] <elixir> https://google-melange.appspot.com/gsoc/proposal/review/google/gsoc2013/elixir3192/1
[16:34] <elixir> yes.
[16:34] <elixir> the 1,2 section there
[16:34] <elixir> https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/103335604004940733299/albums/5871530854908159441/5871595137373957650?pid=5871595137373957650&oid=103335604004940733299
[16:34] <elixir> this is the screenshot
[16:35] * elixir wished kendy was also here, so that we have more clear idea from coding aspects also :-)
[16:35] <mirek2_> :)
[16:36] <mirek2_> so, it shouldn't feature the drop-down arrow, as the icon used should represent a drop-down menu by itself
[16:36] <mirek2_> and the Hidden Actions elixir label shouldn't be there
[16:37] <elixir> Okay.
[16:37] <mirek2_> but, yes, it would be good to be able to set an icon for the button
[16:37] <elixir> So, it should work simply like a dropdown menu.
[16:37] <mirek2_> it should work just like the current >> menu does
[16:37] <elixir> And that icon can be of your taste :-)
[16:38] <elixir> Okay!
[16:38] <mirek2_> and the default icon should still be >>
[16:38] <mirek2_> one should be able to set the icon for each toolbar
[16:39] <elixir> You mean that user should select that icon?
[16:39] <mirek2_> integration with the Customize dialog would be nice, but isn't necessary
[16:39] <elixir> Yes, I'll try that too.
[16:40] <elixir> Actually kendy was a bit busy this week, hopefully we'll give more time discussing this one the upcoming week.
[16:40] <mirek2_> the reasoning behind custom toolbar icons is that we might want to have a Gear icon for the Standard toolbar, in a similar manner to how Chrome, elementary, Gnome, Android, ... have application menus
[16:40] <mirek2_> they're not a necessity though
[16:41] <elixir> Okay.
[16:42] <elixir> But I think there was/is some confusion. I'd be great that you, me and kendy have an online chat on IRC so that things become clear, transparent  so as we all know what is feasible and what is getting implemented:-)
[16:42] <mirek2_> yeah, sure
[16:42] <mirek2_> don't worry about the custom icons
[16:42] <elixir> Sure.
[16:42] <mirek2_> it's a minor detail, and I myself am not 100% convinced about it
[16:43] <elixir> Apart, what aspect you wish to be implemented regarding right-aligned toolbar?
[16:43] <mirek2_> so, it'd be great to have justified toolbars rather than right-aligned ones
[16:44] <elixir> What exactly does this mean?
[16:44] <mirek2_> for example, look at iWork Pages top toolbar
[16:44] <mirek2_> or look at Flexible spaces in the Firefox toolbar
[16:44] <elixir> Sorry, I have no access to iWork :(
[16:45] <mirek2_> http://i0.wp.com/www.digitalcupcake.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/iWork-Pages-One-Up-Two-Up.png
[16:45] <mirek2_> this would be the idea:
[16:46] <mirek2_> you would place a "flexible space" within a toolbar (in the middle or at one of the ends)
[16:46] <elixir> So, we've in a way grouped items with flexible spaces between them?
[16:46] <mirek2_> the flexible space would take up as much space in the row as possible
[16:47] <elixir> Okay.
[16:47] <mirek2_> elixir: yes, flexible spaces act as a different kind of separator
[16:47] <mirek2_> but it's not a replacement for the separator
[16:48] <mirek2_> if you look at http://spiceofdesign.deviantart.com/art/Writer-Concept-351501580, the top toolbar is:
[16:48] <elixir> And there'd be no vertical separator: |  ?
[16:48] <mirek2_> there would be
[16:48] <mirek2_> as I said, it's not a replacement for the separator
[16:49] <elixir> Ok.
[16:49] <mirek2_> as I was saying, in http://spiceofdesign.deviantart.com/art/Writer-Concept-351501580, the top toolbar is "5 commands, flexible space, title, flexible space, 3 commands and menu"
[16:50] <elixir> Yes, got it.
[16:50] <mirek2_> ok, cool
[16:51] <elixir> So, is it for the 1st line of the toolbar or for all the toolbars?
[16:51] <mirek2_> what do you mean?
[16:52] <mirek2_> say you have two toolbars in the a row: Drawing and Search
[16:52] <mirek2_> by default, they're left-aligned
[16:52] <elixir> Yeah, so?
[16:53] <mirek2_> if you add a flexible space to Drawing, all the commands to the right of the flexible space, including the Search toolbar, go to the right
[16:53] <mirek2_> none of the other rows of toolbars are affected
[16:54] == elixir [~Prashant@14.139.122.114] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
[16:54] == elixir [~Prashant@14.139.122.114] has joined #libreoffice-design
[16:54] <elixir> Sorry, server logged me out, back now.
[16:55] <elixir> Sorry, server logged me out, back now.
[16:55] <mirek2_> just in case you missed my messages:
[16:55] <mirek2_> if you add a flexible space to Drawing, all the commands to the right of the flexible space, including the Search toolbar, go to the right
[16:55] <mirek2_> none of the other rows of toolbars are affected
[16:56] <elixir> Ok, so this flexible space thing is visible *only* when the user tries to merge some toolbar into another.
[16:56] <elixir> And rest no other toolbar is affected.
[16:56] <elixir> Right?
[16:57] <mirek2_> no
[16:57] <elixir> Oops.
[16:57] <mirek2_> the flexible space is an item inside a toolbar, much like a separator
[16:58] <mirek2_> you can insert several inside a toolbar, and it can produce an effect like the iWork toolbar
[16:59] <mirek2_> if there are other toolbars on the same line as the toolbar with flexible spaces, those are affected as well
[16:59] <elixir> By default, when there is only one toolbar in a row, what does it look like?
[16:59] <mirek2_> does that toolbar have flexible spaces inside it?
[16:59] <elixir> Yes.
[17:00] <elixir> After implementation I meant
[17:00] <elixir> How should it look like when we have only one toolbar in a row after implementation?
[17:01] <mirek2_> well, most toolbars wouldn't have flexible spaces inside them, so they would look and act just like they do now
[17:02] <mirek2_> but we might have a few toolbars with flexible spaces
[17:02] <elixir> Ok.
[17:03] <mirek2_> my intention was to have a small Standard toolbar aligned to the right of the top toolbar row.
[17:03] <mirek2_> To accomplish this, the Standard toolbar would consist of a flexible space and then some commands.
[17:04] <elixir> Our always visible standard toolbar?
[17:05] <mirek2_> e.g. https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=76252
[17:05] <mirek2_> (except the toolbar handle should be right after the formatting toolbar, before the flexible space)
[17:06] <elixir> Okay, great :-)
[17:07] <mirek2_> I feel like I'm doing a horrible job explaining this...
[17:07] <elixir> And this has to be always in the first line of the toolbar (means this toolbar is to be appended to the right of whichever toolbar is in the first line) ?
[17:08] <mirek2_> no
[17:08] <mirek2_> the flexible space is part of the toolbar
[17:08] <mirek2_> whichever line you move the toolbar with a flexible space to, that's the line it's going to affect
[17:08] <elixir> Okay, got it now.
[17:09] <mirek2_> ok, good :)
[17:09] <elixir> Sorry for some vague and silly questions :)
[17:09] <mirek2_> they weren't silly
[17:09] <mirek2_> and it's important that you understand what exactly the goal is before implementing it
[17:10] <elixir> I think, the amount of task done in the patch (the hidden one), let's first finish off that task, then we can come back to this indentation one.
[17:11] <mirek2_> finish off how?
[17:11] <elixir> by coding and implementing.
[17:12] <elixir> I meant since the hidden-task is on half way, let me first implement it completely because I am more aware of tha code part.
[17:12] <mirek2_> but haven't you already pushed the patch?
[17:12] <mirek2_> ok
[17:12] <mirek2_> so, what do you mean by implementing it completely?
[17:13] <mirek2_> the custom icons?
[17:13] <elixir> I can be amended. Another developer pushed it, kendy didn't, nor me
[17:13] <mirek2_> oh, ok
[17:15] <mirek2_> about the custom icons:
[17:16] <mirek2_> I'm worried a bit that they add too much complexity
[17:16] <elixir> Complexity from user's perspective?
[17:17] <mirek2_> and given that it's needed just for the gear/app menu, perhaps it might be better to just have a special icon for that?
[17:18] <mirek2_> well, the ability to set the icon for each toolbar seems a bit needless to me...
[17:18] <elixir> Possibly yes.
[17:18] <elixir> What is gear/app menu?
[17:20] <mirek2_> the gear menu at the end of elementary apps, the Chrome menu, the gear menu at the end of Gnome apps, ...
[17:20] <mirek2_> in a few hours, you'll be able to read about it at http://elementaryos.org/docs/human-interface-guidelines/ui-toolkit-elements/toolbars/appmenu
[17:21] <elixir> Okay.
[17:21] <mirek2_> it's quite similar to the Android action overflow
[17:22] <mirek2_> anyway, it's probably best not to implement the custom icons for now
[17:22] <mirek2_> and figure out what we want to do later
[17:22] <elixir> Hmm..okay.
[17:22] <mirek2_> I've been thinking it'd be good to standardize some types of toolbars for easier management
[17:23] <elixir> So, on Monday I'll talk with kendy also regarding this.
[17:23] <elixir> Like?
[17:23] <mirek2_> yeah, sounds good
[17:24] <mirek2_> if you'll be chatting on the IRC, I might like to attend as well
[17:24] <elixir> Ofcourse.
[17:24] <mirek2_> (though not sure if I'll be available)
[17:24] <elixir> I'd love you to be there too. :-)
[17:24] <mirek2_> thanks :)
[17:24] <mirek2_> I also wanted to ask you about the toolbar labels
[17:24] <elixir> Yes?
[17:25] <mirek2_> have you been following the back and forth between me and Astron on the mailing list?
[17:25] <elixir> I couldn't read _all_ the mails.
[17:25] <mirek2_> that's ok
[17:25] <mirek2_> it boils down to this:
[17:26] <elixir> I got confused at some point in between IIRC and then left the conversation/
[17:26] <elixir> Yes?
[17:27] <mirek2_> Right now, as I understand it, there are 2 "tags" for an icon: "with label" and "without label"
[17:28] <mirek2_> how hard would it be to introduce a tag of "with label if there's space"
[17:28] <mirek2_> ?
[17:30] <elixir> Ohh, I think introducing it wouldn't be much difficult but I am not sure if there'd be much of labour work or otherwise.
[17:30] <elixir> Actually kendy would be again be the best person to answer.
[17:30] <mirek2_> in other words, could commands be rated by how much they need a label, with 0 meaning "never show a label", 3 meaning "always show a label", and 1 and 2 would show labels only if there's room for them, with 2 being preferred over 1
[17:30] <mirek2_> ok
[17:31] <mirek2_> please ask him on Monday, then
[17:32] <elixir> Since introducing flexible space and varying it would be another challenging task as far as I can see, so this can be done once the flexible space part is correctly done.
[17:32] <elixir> Sure.
[17:32] <mirek2_> great
[17:32] <mirek2_> flexible spaces are much more important to me
[17:32] <elixir> Sure.
[17:32] <mirek2_> also, would it be possible to have labels in the sidebar?
[17:33] <elixir> Yes.
[17:33] <mirek2_> ok, good
[17:33] <elixir> The sidebars are managed by the .ui files in glade, so I think its possibe
[17:34] <mirek2_> alright
[17:34] <elixir> So, kendy: here's the whole log for you :-) I think we all need to discuss the exact implementation regarding the leftover tasks, hopefully we'll have a much more productive next week :-)
[17:35] <mirek2_> :)
[17:35] <mirek2_> I'll publish the log on the Design wiki, if you don't mind
[17:36] <elixir> mirek2_: How can I inform you about the IRC chat, or what should be the notice time prior to call you for IRC chat?
[17:36] <elixir> Sure, no problem :)
[17:36] <mirek2_> send me an e-mail, I might catch it
[17:36] <elixir> On the day itself?
[17:37] <elixir> Or atleast one day before I meant? :)
[17:37] <mirek2_> it doesn't really matter
[17:37] <elixir> Ok. I'll mail you in that case. Thanks :)
[17:37] <mirek2_> I'm meeting someone on Monday, so I might not be able to make it
[17:37] <elixir> Ok.
[17:38] <mirek2_> oh, and be sure to invite Astron as well
[17:38] <elixir> Anyways, kendy has the log now, so hopefully we can come to a conclusion :)
[17:38] <elixir> Ok.
[17:38] <mirek2_> great :)
[17:38] <mirek2_> see you Monday, then, hopefully
[17:39] <elixir> Sure.