Design/Meetings/2013-10-27

    From The Document Foundation Wiki

    Attendees

    • ahmd
    • mirek2

    Topics

    • Default template
    • Fonts
    • Flat icons

    Log

    [12:20] <@ahmd> i'm working on the template code right now
    [12:21] <mirek2> excellent :)
    [12:21] <mirek2> on the code?
    [12:21] <@ahmd> yes
    [12:21] <@ahmd> it should be done in C++
    [12:21] <mirek2> now I'm confused
    [12:22] <mirek2> what exactly are you working on?
    [12:22] <@ahmd> default template
    [12:23] <@ahmd> the templates i've done before were just to show how things will look
    [12:23] <mirek2> what part of that involves C++?
    [12:23] <mirek2> Isn't the template just an OTT file?
    [12:24] <@ahmd> yes, but we don't have mechanism right now to set an OTT file as a default template
    [12:24] <@ahmd> + loading a file will affect the start-up time of writer
    [12:25] <mirek2> oh, ok
    [12:26] <mirek2> have you made any edits to your proposal after my comments?
    [12:26] <@ahmd> no, not yet
    [12:27] <mirek2> you'll do that after you've played with the C++ code?
    [12:27] <@ahmd> yes
    [12:28] <mirek2> ok
    [12:28] <@ahmd> we need to update the wiki page
    [12:28] <@ahmd> regarding the 12pt size
    [12:28] <@ahmd> the default liberation family size is 11pt
    [12:28] <@ahmd> what do you think?
    [12:29] <mirek2> as I said in my mail, I'd prefer 12pt
    [12:29] <mirek2> that's been default for now and it's more legible
    [12:29] <mirek2> and it brings us closer to our goal of 2-3 alphabets per line
    [12:30] <@ahmd> yes, but most office suites use 11pt
    [12:30] <@ahmd> anyway, 12pt looks good
    [12:30] <mirek2> a) who cares what the others are doing
    [12:30] <@ahmd> you're right
    [12:31] <mirek2> b) is that really true? I think Mac:Office uses 12pt, need to check the others
    [12:31] <@ahmd> anyway i'll compare 11pt and 12pt on printed paper
    [12:31] <mirek2> abiword is using 12pt
    [12:31] <mirek2> openoffice is as well, of course
    [12:31] <@ahmd> old software uses 12pt
    [12:31] <@ahmd> but all the new ones use 11pt
    [12:31] <@ahmd> there is a reason for that?
    [12:32] <mirek2> I think that the most recent build of Mac Office uses 12pt
    [12:32] <mirek2> but I can't check right now
    [12:33] <@ahmd> i'll check it tomorrow, and i'll try to find why 11pt
    [12:33] <@ahmd> if there isn't a strong reason i'll go with 12pt
    [12:33] <mirek2> I think Pages might be using 12pt as well, though, again, can't check
    [12:35] <mirek2> From Butterick: "The average line length should be 45–90 char­ac­ters (in­clud­ing spaces)."
    [12:36] <@ahmd> what about the margins of the page?
    [12:36] <@ahmd> do you think we need to change them?
    [12:36] <mirek2> I would keep them as they are -- I don't see a need to change them, and the defaults have worked well
    [12:37] <@ahmd> ok good
    [12:37] <mirek2> but I wouldn't object to changing them if you wanted to and had reasons to
    [12:37] <@ahmd> no, i wanted to make sure
    [12:38] <@ahmd> for the headings, i've removed all the bold styling
    [12:38] <@ahmd> what do you think?
    [12:38] <mirek2> about margins: might be useful to read http://practicaltypography.com/page-margins.html
    [12:38] <mirek2> (I haven't done so yet, but will later)
    [12:39] <mirek2> ahmd: I gave you my opinion on the mailing list
    [12:39] <@ahmd> yes, i'm lazy to open the mail again :P
    [12:39] <mirek2> I'm afraid it will be harder to distinguish the different heading levels
    [12:39] <mirek2> especially when there's a lot of body text in between
    [12:40] <mirek2> ideally, some headings would be bold, some italic, some both, some neither
    [12:41] <@ahmd> I'll try to find the best balance, especially for small headings
    [12:41] <@ahmd> anyway, bold still looks good
    [12:44] <@ahmd> by the way,we'll contact the liberation font original designer this week
    [12:44] <mirek2> to help with further refinement?
    [12:45] <@ahmd> we want to merge Arabic font + to see what to improve for Latin
    [12:45] <mirek2> great :)
    [12:45] <@ahmd> yes :)
    [12:45] <mirek2> it might be good to contact Google's Dave Crossland as well
    [12:46] <mirek2> they've contributed to the font under the Tinos/Arimo/Cousine names
    [12:48] <mirek2> anyway, really happy to see work being done on those
    [12:48] <mirek2> too bad we're stuck with the fonts, though
    [12:48] <@ahmd> still we can improve them
    [12:49] <mirek2> definitely
    [12:49] <mirek2> any word on the Calibri/Cambria alternatives?
    [12:49] <mirek2> (Carlito and Caladea, I believe)
    [12:49] <@ahmd> i didn't look into that
    [12:50] <@ahmd> we can design a new metrically compatible font, but that needs time and resources
    [12:50] <mirek2> we don't have to design a font, they've already been designed
    [12:51] <mirek2> see the "Carlito + Caladea" thread on the mailing list
    [12:51] <mirek2> (I was just wondering if you heard anything new, given that you're looking into fonts)
    [12:52] <mirek2> I don't expect them to be nearly as good as the Liberation fonts given their maturity
    [12:53] <mirek2> so they're probably not fit for use in the default template yet
    [12:53] <@ahmd> good, I'll look into them and see how much work needed to improve them + if they lack Arabic alphabet
    [12:54] <@ahmd> regarding the styling system in LO
    [12:54] <mirek2> yes?
    [12:54] <@ahmd> is there any proposals?
    [12:55] <mirek2> on what exactly?
    [12:56] <@ahmd> first on the Style items on the Style list
    [12:56] <mirek2> as in, which styles to get rid of?
    [12:56] <@ahmd> for example we can replace Heading with Heading 1
    [12:57] <@ahmd> reducing the number of headings to two main headings and two subheadings...
    [12:57] <mirek2> Heading as a style is useful to style all the headings
    [12:57] <@ahmd> yes, but we can change the parent heading
    [12:58] <@ahmd> to heading 1
    [12:58] <mirek2> but that would make things more complicated
    [12:58] <mirek2> as now you couldn't style Heading 1 individually
    [12:58] <mirek2> I'd keep the parent styles as they are
    [12:58] <mirek2> we could present them in a better way, though
    [12:58] <@ahmd> since i'm already on the code
    [12:59] <mirek2> and if we're getting rid of headings, I'd only get rid of 7-10
    [12:59] <@ahmd> i'm looking at what others are doing
    [13:00] <mirek2> we definitely shouldn't have just 2 headings
    [13:01] <mirek2> what are others doing?
    [13:02] <@ahmd> iwork for example have two headings and two subheadings
    [13:02] <@ahmd> we'll still support other documents with as much headings
    [13:02] <mirek2> are you using iwork, or are you basing that on screenshots?
    [13:03] <mirek2> I think iWork shows styles based on context
    [13:03] <@ahmd> my flatmate has iworks on his ipad + macbook
    [13:03] <mirek2> so it shows headng sublevels only once you use the superior headings
    [13:04] <mirek2> being a user of styles, I would say that most styles we have are actually important to have
    [13:04] <@ahmd> i've tried the ipad one and it doesn't give me more than two headings! (i have to double check)
    [13:04] <mirek2> but that they should be visible only in certain circumstances
    [13:05] <mirek2> i.e. you don't need the Footer style if you don't have a footer
    [13:05] <@ahmd> i'll test it more and tell you my findings, if you've access to a new version of ipages that will be great
    [13:05] <mirek2> not right now
    [13:05] <@ahmd> anytime
    [13:06] <mirek2> and not a new version
    [13:06] <mirek2> only the old one
    [13:06] <@ahmd> i think it's free now
    [13:06] <mirek2> just with new computers and ipads
    [13:06] <@ahmd> aha
    [13:06] <@ahmd> :/
    [13:06] <mirek2> I don't own any Apple device, btw
    [13:07] <mirek2> I also rely on loaners for this kind of testing
    [13:07] <mirek2> as for tablet/phone apps, I'm not sure that's a fair comparison, given that they tend to be quite limited compared to their desktop counterparts
    [13:07] <@ahmd> we've macbook pro at the office, i'll ask to buy iworks for it
    [13:08] <mirek2> you can download the demo
    [13:08] <mirek2> I mean, the 30-day trial
    [13:08] <@ahmd> ok good
    [13:08] <@ahmd> back to styles
    [13:09] <@ahmd> there are many things like Contents 1~10
    [13:09] <mirek2> I also have lots of screenshots of iWork, should you need to check anything
    [13:09] <@ahmd> List1~10
    [13:09] <@ahmd> Numbering 1~10
    [13:10] <@ahmd> User Index 1~10
    [13:10] <mirek2> never used those styles
    [13:10] <@ahmd> and most of them has exactly the same settings
    [13:10] <mirek2> not sure what they're for
    [13:10] <mirek2> I assume you mean the paragraph styles, not the list styles
    [13:10] <@ahmd> yes
    [13:11] <mirek2> and I assume they refer to the individual list levels
    [13:11] <mirek2> would be good to do some user research here
    [13:11] <mirek2> find out if these styles are being used
    [13:12] <mirek2> perhaps Bjorn Balazs might be willing to help?
    [13:12] <@ahmd> yes, but most of these have the same styling settings
    [13:13] <mirek2> sure, but they might be useful for people who want different styling settings
    [13:13] <mirek2> I imagine it would be quite laborious to define these styles by yourself
    [13:13] <@ahmd> yes, but the user can add anything he wants
    [13:14] <@ahmd> since for example Contents 1 ~ 10 are exactly the same
    [13:14] <mirek2> yes, but there's also the question of linking these styles to the individual items
    [13:15] <mirek2> not sure where that's done, btw
    [13:15] <@ahmd> ok, but we've to look at that when we finish the new templtae
    [13:16] <mirek2> is it even possible to link paragraph styles manually to list levels?
    [13:16] <@ahmd> i believe yes
    [13:17] <mirek2> ahmd: I wouldn't get rid of any styles for now
    [13:17] <@ahmd> OK, sure
    [13:17] <mirek2> ahmd: how?
    [13:18] <@ahmd> I'll not remove anything!
    [13:18] <@ahmd> until we get the new template out
    [13:18] <@ahmd> then we'll look together what should be done
    [13:19] == sveinki [~Thunderbi@212.30.246.130] has joined #libreoffice-design
    [13:19] <@ahmd> i'm not to take any step in this area alone ;)
    [13:19] <mirek2> by "new template", I hope you mean a revised version of the current template, not a new from-the-ground-up template
    [13:19] <mirek2> ahmd: great :)
    [13:19] <@ahmd> yes
    [13:20] <@ahmd> i'm leaving the office now
    [13:20] <@ahmd> is there anything else to discuss?
    [13:21] <mirek2> any progress on icons?
    [13:21] <mirek2> have the volunteers I directed to you made any contributions?
    [13:21] <@ahmd> yes
    [13:21] <@ahmd> :)
    [13:21] <@ahmd> they're doing great
    [13:22] <mirek2> excellent :)
    [13:22] <@ahmd> Also we've added more icons and improved others
    [13:22] <mirek2> how is export working, btw?
    [13:23] <mirek2> what's the mechanism for naming icons?
    [13:23] <@ahmd> you've to make an empty square over the icon's elements and group them together
    [13:24] <@ahmd> the square should be the exact size of the intended icon
    [13:24] <@ahmd> then right-click
    [13:24] <@ahmd> >Object Properties
    [13:24] <@ahmd> and in the ID field give it the exact name of the icon without the extention
    [13:24] <mirek2> you're welcome to use the tango-testing icon sheets
    [13:25] <@ahmd> thanks :)
    [13:25] <mirek2> they now include rectangles for all the icons from the cmd folder
    [13:25] <mirek2> the rectangles for exporting are on a separate layer
    [13:25] <@ahmd> nice idea :)
    [13:25] <@ahmd> we've them on the same layer
    [13:26] <@ahmd> OK, I think I've to go now