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[12:20] <@ahmd> i'm working on the template code right now
[12:21] <mirek2> excellent :)
[12:21] <mirek2> on the code?
[12:21] <@ahmd> yes
[12:21] <@ahmd> it should be done in C++
[12:21] <mirek2> now I'm confused
[12:22] <mirek2> what exactly are you working on?
[12:22] <@ahmd> default template
[12:23] <@ahmd> the templates i've done before were just to show how things will look
[12:23] <mirek2> what part of that involves C++?
[12:23] <mirek2> Isn't the template just an OTT file?
[12:24] <@ahmd> yes, but we don't have mechanism right now to set an OTT file as a default template
[12:24] <@ahmd> + loading a file will affect the start-up time of writer
[12:25] <mirek2> oh, ok
[12:26] <mirek2> have you made any edits to your proposal after my comments?
[12:26] <@ahmd> no, not yet
[12:27] <mirek2> you'll do that after you've played with the C++ code?
[12:27] <@ahmd> yes
[12:28] <mirek2> ok
[12:28] <@ahmd> we need to update the wiki page
[12:28] <@ahmd> regarding the 12pt size
[12:28] <@ahmd> the default liberation family size is 11pt
[12:28] <@ahmd> what do you think?
[12:29] <mirek2> as I said in my mail, I'd prefer 12pt
[12:29] <mirek2> that's been default for now and it's more legible
[12:29] <mirek2> and it brings us closer to our goal of 2-3 alphabets per line
[12:30] <@ahmd> yes, but most office suites use 11pt
[12:30] <@ahmd> anyway, 12pt looks good
[12:30] <mirek2> a) who cares what the others are doing
[12:30] <@ahmd> you're right
[12:31] <mirek2> b) is that really true? I think Mac:Office uses 12pt, need to check the others
[12:31] <@ahmd> anyway i'll compare 11pt and 12pt on printed paper
[12:31] <mirek2> abiword is using 12pt
[12:31] <mirek2> openoffice is as well, of course
[12:31] <@ahmd> old software uses 12pt
[12:31] <@ahmd> but all the new ones use 11pt
[12:31] <@ahmd> there is a reason for that?
[12:32] <mirek2> I think that the most recent build of Mac Office uses 12pt
[12:32] <mirek2> but I can't check right now
[12:33] <@ahmd> i'll check it tomorrow, and i'll try to find why 11pt
[12:33] <@ahmd> if there isn't a strong reason i'll go with 12pt
[12:33] <mirek2> I think Pages might be using 12pt as well, though, again, can't check
[12:35] <mirek2> From Butterick: "The average line length should be 45–90 char­ac­ters (in­clud­ing spaces)."
[12:36] <@ahmd> what about the margins of the page?
[12:36] <@ahmd> do you think we need to change them?
[12:36] <mirek2> I would keep them as they are -- I don't see a need to change them, and the defaults have worked well
[12:37] <@ahmd> ok good
[12:37] <mirek2> but I wouldn't object to changing them if you wanted to and had reasons to
[12:37] <@ahmd> no, i wanted to make sure
[12:38] <@ahmd> for the headings, i've removed all the bold styling
[12:38] <@ahmd> what do you think?
[12:38] <mirek2> about margins: might be useful to read
[12:38] <mirek2> (I haven't done so yet, but will later)
[12:39] <mirek2> ahmd: I gave you my opinion on the mailing list
[12:39] <@ahmd> yes, i'm lazy to open the mail again :P
[12:39] <mirek2> I'm afraid it will be harder to distinguish the different heading levels
[12:39] <mirek2> especially when there's a lot of body text in between
[12:40] <mirek2> ideally, some headings would be bold, some italic, some both, some neither
[12:41] <@ahmd> I'll try to find the best balance, especially for small headings
[12:41] <@ahmd> anyway, bold still looks good
[12:44] <@ahmd> by the way,we'll contact the liberation font original designer this week
[12:44] <mirek2> to help with further refinement?
[12:45] <@ahmd> we want to merge Arabic font + to see what to improve for Latin
[12:45] <mirek2> great :)
[12:45] <@ahmd> yes :)
[12:45] <mirek2> it might be good to contact Google's Dave Crossland as well
[12:46] <mirek2> they've contributed to the font under the Tinos/Arimo/Cousine names
[12:48] <mirek2> anyway, really happy to see work being done on those
[12:48] <mirek2> too bad we're stuck with the fonts, though
[12:48] <@ahmd> still we can improve them
[12:49] <mirek2> definitely
[12:49] <mirek2> any word on the Calibri/Cambria alternatives?
[12:49] <mirek2> (Carlito and Caladea, I believe)
[12:49] <@ahmd> i didn't look into that
[12:50] <@ahmd> we can design a new metrically compatible font, but that needs time and resources
[12:50] <mirek2> we don't have to design a font, they've already been designed
[12:51] <mirek2> see the "Carlito + Caladea" thread on the mailing list
[12:51] <mirek2> (I was just wondering if you heard anything new, given that you're looking into fonts)
[12:52] <mirek2> I don't expect them to be nearly as good as the Liberation fonts given their maturity
[12:53] <mirek2> so they're probably not fit for use in the default template yet
[12:53] <@ahmd> good, I'll look into them and see how much work needed to improve them + if they lack Arabic alphabet
[12:54] <@ahmd> regarding the styling system in LO
[12:54] <mirek2> yes?
[12:54] <@ahmd> is there any proposals?
[12:55] <mirek2> on what exactly?
[12:56] <@ahmd> first on the Style items on the Style list
[12:56] <mirek2> as in, which styles to get rid of?
[12:56] <@ahmd> for example we can replace Heading with Heading 1
[12:57] <@ahmd> reducing the number of headings to two main headings and two subheadings...
[12:57] <mirek2> Heading as a style is useful to style all the headings
[12:57] <@ahmd> yes, but we can change the parent heading
[12:58] <@ahmd> to heading 1
[12:58] <mirek2> but that would make things more complicated
[12:58] <mirek2> as now you couldn't style Heading 1 individually
[12:58] <mirek2> I'd keep the parent styles as they are
[12:58] <mirek2> we could present them in a better way, though
[12:58] <@ahmd> since i'm already on the code
[12:59] <mirek2> and if we're getting rid of headings, I'd only get rid of 7-10
[12:59] <@ahmd> i'm looking at what others are doing
[13:00] <mirek2> we definitely shouldn't have just 2 headings
[13:01] <mirek2> what are others doing?
[13:02] <@ahmd> iwork for example have two headings and two subheadings
[13:02] <@ahmd> we'll still support other documents with as much headings
[13:02] <mirek2> are you using iwork, or are you basing that on screenshots?
[13:03] <mirek2> I think iWork shows styles based on context
[13:03] <@ahmd> my flatmate has iworks on his ipad + macbook
[13:03] <mirek2> so it shows headng sublevels only once you use the superior headings
[13:04] <mirek2> being a user of styles, I would say that most styles we have are actually important to have
[13:04] <@ahmd> i've tried the ipad one and it doesn't give me more than two headings! (i have to double check)
[13:04] <mirek2> but that they should be visible only in certain circumstances
[13:05] <mirek2> i.e. you don't need the Footer style if you don't have a footer
[13:05] <@ahmd> i'll test it more and tell you my findings, if you've access to a new version of ipages that will be great
[13:05] <mirek2> not right now
[13:05] <@ahmd> anytime
[13:06] <mirek2> and not a new version
[13:06] <mirek2> only the old one
[13:06] <@ahmd> i think it's free now
[13:06] <mirek2> just with new computers and ipads
[13:06] <@ahmd> aha
[13:06] <@ahmd> :/
[13:06] <mirek2> I don't own any Apple device, btw
[13:07] <mirek2> I also rely on loaners for this kind of testing
[13:07] <mirek2> as for tablet/phone apps, I'm not sure that's a fair comparison, given that they tend to be quite limited compared to their desktop counterparts
[13:07] <@ahmd> we've macbook pro at the office, i'll ask to buy iworks for it
[13:08] <mirek2> you can download the demo
[13:08] <mirek2> I mean, the 30-day trial
[13:08] <@ahmd> ok good
[13:08] <@ahmd> back to styles
[13:09] <@ahmd> there are many things like Contents 1~10
[13:09] <mirek2> I also have lots of screenshots of iWork, should you need to check anything
[13:09] <@ahmd> List1~10
[13:09] <@ahmd> Numbering 1~10
[13:10] <@ahmd> User Index 1~10
[13:10] <mirek2> never used those styles
[13:10] <@ahmd> and most of them has exactly the same settings
[13:10] <mirek2> not sure what they're for
[13:10] <mirek2> I assume you mean the paragraph styles, not the list styles
[13:10] <@ahmd> yes
[13:11] <mirek2> and I assume they refer to the individual list levels
[13:11] <mirek2> would be good to do some user research here
[13:11] <mirek2> find out if these styles are being used
[13:12] <mirek2> perhaps Bjorn Balazs might be willing to help?
[13:12] <@ahmd> yes, but most of these have the same styling settings
[13:13] <mirek2> sure, but they might be useful for people who want different styling settings
[13:13] <mirek2> I imagine it would be quite laborious to define these styles by yourself
[13:13] <@ahmd> yes, but the user can add anything he wants
[13:14] <@ahmd> since for example Contents 1 ~ 10 are exactly the same
[13:14] <mirek2> yes, but there's also the question of linking these styles to the individual items
[13:15] <mirek2> not sure where that's done, btw
[13:15] <@ahmd> ok, but we've to look at that when we finish the new templtae
[13:16] <mirek2> is it even possible to link paragraph styles manually to list levels?
[13:16] <@ahmd> i believe yes
[13:17] <mirek2> ahmd: I wouldn't get rid of any styles for now
[13:17] <@ahmd> OK, sure
[13:17] <mirek2> ahmd: how?
[13:18] <@ahmd> I'll not remove anything!
[13:18] <@ahmd> until we get the new template out
[13:18] <@ahmd> then we'll look together what should be done
[13:19] == sveinki [~Thunderbi@] has joined #libreoffice-design
[13:19] <@ahmd> i'm not to take any step in this area alone ;)
[13:19] <mirek2> by "new template", I hope you mean a revised version of the current template, not a new from-the-ground-up template
[13:19] <mirek2> ahmd: great :)
[13:19] <@ahmd> yes
[13:20] <@ahmd> i'm leaving the office now
[13:20] <@ahmd> is there anything else to discuss?
[13:21] <mirek2> any progress on icons?
[13:21] <mirek2> have the volunteers I directed to you made any contributions?
[13:21] <@ahmd> yes
[13:21] <@ahmd> :)
[13:21] <@ahmd> they're doing great
[13:22] <mirek2> excellent :)
[13:22] <@ahmd> Also we've added more icons and improved others
[13:22] <mirek2> how is export working, btw?
[13:23] <mirek2> what's the mechanism for naming icons?
[13:23] <@ahmd> you've to make an empty square over the icon's elements and group them together
[13:24] <@ahmd> the square should be the exact size of the intended icon
[13:24] <@ahmd> then right-click
[13:24] <@ahmd> >Object Properties
[13:24] <@ahmd> and in the ID field give it the exact name of the icon without the extention
[13:24] <mirek2> you're welcome to use the tango-testing icon sheets
[13:25] <@ahmd> thanks :)
[13:25] <mirek2> they now include rectangles for all the icons from the cmd folder
[13:25] <mirek2> the rectangles for exporting are on a separate layer
[13:25] <@ahmd> nice idea :)
[13:25] <@ahmd> we've them on the same layer
[13:26] <@ahmd> OK, I think I've to go now