Design/Meetings/2013-11-03

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    Topics

    Attendees

    • ahmad
    • ljelly_
    • LLyaudet
    • mirek2

    Log

    [12:00] <LLyaudet> Hi
[12:00] <mirek2> hi guys
[12:02] <LLyaudet> Shall we wait for more people to join ?
[12:03] <mirek2> yup
[12:03] <mirek2> let's wait until 05
[12:03] <LLyaudet> k
[12:03] <mirek2> LLyaudet: any topic you came here for?
[12:04] <mirek2> anything in particular you'd like to discuss?
[12:04] <LLyaudet> I mainly wanted to see how it goes and maybe talk about my feature request for the upperleft corner of calc
[12:05] <LLyaudet> I looked at the wiki conecerning start center of 4.2 also
[12:06] <mirek2> ok
[12:06] <mirek2> I had a cursory look at your Calc proposal -- it seems nice
[12:07] <LLyaudet> thanks :)
[12:07] <mirek2> ok, let's get started
[12:08] <mirek2> ahmd: are you with us?
[12:08] <LLyaudet> I didn't found Mateusz proposal in the wiki
[12:08] <mirek2> it's on the mailing list
[12:08] <mirek2> I should add my proposal to the wiki as well
[12:09] <LLyaudet> I saw your proposal in the wiki
[12:09] <LLyaudet> but maybe you updated it ?
[12:09] <mirek2> yes
[12:10] <mirek2> the wiki one is just a wireframe
[12:10] <mirek2> there's a high-fidelity version on the ml
[12:10] <LLyaudet> ok so I should take a look on the ml
[12:11] <mirek2> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/3/38/Mirek2-start.png
[12:11] <mirek2> and mateusz's proposal: http://i.imgur.com/RUfcMlw.jpg
[12:11] <mirek2> http://i.imgur.com/KWpS7tu.jpg
[12:12] <LLyaudet> thanks
[12:13] <@ahmd> hi
[12:13] <LLyaudet> I think that Mateusz's proposal looks better
[12:13] <LLyaudet> hi
[12:13] <mirek2> :) ok
[12:13] <LLyaudet> but the sidebar on the right seems odd to me
[12:14] <mirek2> so, there are several things the proposals differ on
[12:14] <mirek2> a) native UI elements
[12:14] <mirek2> which we'll have to use
[12:15] <mirek2> that's the tab bar, the title bar, etc.
[12:15] <mirek2> there's toolbar vs. sidebar
[12:15] <LLyaudet> sidebar on the left is an option ?
[12:16] <mirek2> yes, but it might look strange in relation to the tab bar
[12:16] <mirek2> if it's kept green
[12:16] <LLyaudet> It's kind of Open File Menu option I must admit
[12:17] <mirek2> that's the point
[12:17] <LLyaudet> indeed with the tab bar It would be strange
[12:17] <mirek2> I wish we had Kendy here...
[12:18] <@ahmd> let me see if he's around!
[12:18] <mirek2> he doesn't appear to be on libreoffice-dev...
[12:19] <@ahmd> ok, ping him with an email..
[12:19] <@ahmd> he'll join if he's free
[12:20] <mirek2> just did
[12:21] <mirek2> let's discuss the calc proposal right now
[12:21] <mirek2> it'd be better to have Kendy here for the SC
[12:21] <@ahmd> can i've proposal's link please..
[12:21] <mirek2> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=66472
[12:21] <@ahmd> thanks
[12:22] <mirek2> http://lyaudet.olympe.in/proofOfConceptTriforce_eng.html
[12:23] <mirek2> on closer inspection, I'm not sure whether this is needed
[12:24] <mirek2> can't we just put row and column commands in the X zone's contextual menu?
[12:24] <@ahmd> brilliant idea...
[12:25] <mirek2> LLyaudet: or am I missing something?
[12:25] <LLyaudet> the contextual menu will be huge then
[12:25] <LLyaudet> there are 4 types of actions
[12:25] <LLyaudet> row, columns, row+columns, cells
[12:26] <mirek2> yup...
[12:26] <LLyaudet> I think it's clearer with a part of the triforce for row, one for column and one for row+columns, cells
[12:27] <LLyaudet> because then no action is repeated in a contextual menu
[12:27] <@ahmd> mirek2: how about asking mmeeks to join the discussion?
[12:28] <LLyaudet> example unhide row+columns, unhide rows, unhide columns
[12:28] <mirek2> ahmd: not sure if I want to bother him
[12:28] <mirek2> and don't know if he's involved with the SC at all
[12:28] <mirek2> I would say he probably isn't
[12:29] <mirek2> LLyaudet: what's the advantage of one for columns and one for rows
[12:29] <LLyaudet> mouse distance
[12:29] <mirek2> you'd get the exact same commands as when clicking on a row/column header
[12:29] <@ahmd> he's not involved, but he's following the development closely with kohi
[12:29] <mirek2> ahmd: it's up to you
[12:30] <@ahmd> ok
[12:30] <LLyaudet> with row headers and columns headers that's 5 clicks
[12:30] <LLyaudet> with triforce that's 2 clciks
[12:31] <mirek2> but it could be 2 clicks if we just add a contextual menu to the X zone, right?
[12:31] <LLyaudet> yes but mouse distance is bigger
[12:31] <LLyaudet> because of a bigger contextual menu
[12:32] <LLyaudet> with a small mouse distance in the triforce you select a kind of actions
[12:32] <mirek2> but the contextual menu would be the same as that of the top left region of the triforce, wouldn't it?
[12:32] <LLyaudet> no topleft would be row+column and cells only
[12:33] <@ahmd> mmeeks won't be around, last seen 16hrs ago!
[12:33] <@ahmd> if forgot it's Sunday today....
[12:33] <LLyaudet> by row +column I don't mean row action + column action
[12:33] <mirek2> mirek2: right -- that's what I meant as well
[12:33] <mirek2> for the X zone
[12:34] <LLyaudet> I mean action that can be simultaneously applied to row and columns
[12:34] <mirek2> yup -- so do I :)
[12:34] <LLyaudet> ok :)
[12:35] <LLyaudet> so the contextual menu of topleft triforce is not the same as contextual menu for X zone
[12:35] <mirek2> no, it would be
[12:35] <mirek2> (currently, there is no contextual menu for the X zone)
[12:35] <LLyaudet> I should have extended my proof of Concept  to make clearer that point
[12:36] <LLyaudet> there is 3 unhide :
[12:36] <LLyaudet> in topleft triforce you just show unhide bith rows and columns -> 1 action
[12:36] <LLyaudet> in X zone you must display 3 actions
[12:37] <LLyaudet> *both
[12:37] <mirek2> what I'm asking is: if the X zone had the same contextual menu as the menu for the top left of the triforce, would there still be any advantage in having the triforce?
[12:37] <LLyaudet> yes
[12:38] <LLyaudet> if you want to unhide rows only
[12:38] <LLyaudet> with X zone -> left click then right click rows headers
[12:38] <LLyaudet> with triforce -> right click down triforce
[12:39] <mirek2> ok, I see
[12:39] <mirek2> the disadvantages I see to that are:
[12:40] <LLyaudet> That's good to explain that. I'll add it to the feature request
[12:40] == ljelly_ [3aad297b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.58.173.41.123] has joined #libreoffice-design
[12:40] <mirek2> hi lj
[12:40] <LLyaudet> X zone with contextual menu is a good option but not the better
[12:40] <mirek2> hi ljelly_
[12:40] <ljelly_> hi is this libreoffice design irc?
[12:40] <LLyaudet> hi
[12:40] <mirek2> yup
[12:41] <@ahmd> yes
[12:41] <mirek2> we're discussing https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=66472 right now
[12:41] <mirek2> anyway, as I was saying, the disadvantages I see are:
[12:42] <mirek2> a) as it's only relevant for contextual menus, the division of the X zone could be potentially confusing...
[12:43] <mirek2> I assume any part of the triforce selects all cells, right?
[12:44] <LLyaudet> Yes it selects but only the topleft part has cell actions in contextual menu
[12:45] <LLyaudet> leftclicking any part of the triforce is the same as leftclicking X zone
[12:46] <LLyaudet> thus there is no regression
[12:46] <mirek2> yes -- I'm saying that adding separators could be potentially confusing for the user
[12:46] <mirek2> but I suppose that's solveable with a good design
[12:46] <ljelly_> it would probably be confusing.
[12:46] <LLyaudet> I had the opposite opinions at work when  I presented that idea
[12:47] <mirek2> this is something that should be tested, really
[12:47] <@ahmd> i don't think it's confusing
[12:47] <mirek2> maybe it won't be confusing
[12:47] <mirek2> it's not confusing when you know what it's for
[12:48] <LLyaudet> the small triangles were intuitive to my coworkers
[12:48] <mirek2> you didn't tell them what they were for before asking their opinion?
[12:48] <LLyaudet> they told it was clear it was selecting rows or columns
[12:49] <ljelly_> I'm not 100% sure what its for.
[12:49] <@ahmd> it's just three actions
[12:49] <ljelly_> but.
[12:49] <@ahmd> the user will get it fast
[12:49] <ljelly_> maybe if you a dialog can be displayed when the mouse is hovered with the correct function could eliminate the confusion.
[12:49] <LLyaudet> I told them but they told me it was natural
[12:49] <mirek2> ok
[12:50] <mirek2> ahmd: how hard would this be to implement?
[12:50] <@ahmd> as a function, it's easy
[12:50] <mirek2> it'd be good to test this out in context
[12:50] <@ahmd> but how are we going to draw that...
[12:50] <@ahmd> in code
[12:51] <mirek2> potential solution to the problem: show a contextual toolbar on single-click
[12:52] <@ahmd> yes this is easy to do
[12:52] <mirek2> (I was talking about the confusion problem, not the drawing problem)
[12:53] <@ahmd> aha ....
[12:54] <LLyaudet> If you accept my proposal, I wanted to propose this development to students. We have apprentices in my company that would be interested in coding that.
[12:54] <mirek2> LLyaudet: oh, in that case, sure :)
[12:54] <LLyaudet> Great :)
[12:55] <mirek2> but if it turns out that it's counterproductive for some reason (based on user testing), I hope you won't mind a) refining the feature until it's good, or b) having the feature removed
[12:56] <LLyaudet> Of course. My goal is to improve the UX not make it worse :)
[12:56] <mirek2> great :)
[12:57] <mirek2> do you need graphic design for the feature?
[12:57] <LLyaudet> Yes I would definitely appreciate some help for the graphic design :)
[12:57] <mirek2> (I was thinking about losing the gloss of the bars anyway)
[12:58] <mirek2> alright, I'll make a post to the mailing list and start a whiteboard
[12:58] <LLyaudet> thanks :)
[12:58] <mirek2> would you be willing to change the background of the header bars in general?
[12:59] <LLyaudet> I didn't thought about it.
[12:59] <mirek2> the gloss would probably not sit well with the triforce, plus it looks dated
[13:00] <LLyaudet> I agree it's better if we make a design that is well-themed with the headers
[13:00] <mirek2> so you'd be willing to retheme the headers?
[13:01] <mirek2> just so I know the scope of the design proposals
[13:02] <LLyaudet> at least the triforce must be in the same theme as the headers, so maybe it will need to retheme the headers. I don't really know right now.
[13:02] <LLyaudet> It can be done in two phases.
[13:03] == ljelly_ [3aad297b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.58.173.41.123] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
[13:03] <LLyaudet> First a triforce with the current theme. Then an improved theme for headers and triforce.
[13:04] <mirek2> ok
[13:04] <LLyaudet> The first step should give us feedback on the triforce.
[13:05] <mirek2> sounds good
[13:05] <LLyaudet> Then we will know if it's needed to slightly increase the height of the columns headers in the next step.
[13:06] <mirek2> alright, let's move on to a different topic
[13:06] <LLyaudet> ok
[13:07] <mirek2> you don't need a design for the triforce right away, right?
[13:07] <mirek2> you can start hacking without a design?
[13:08] <LLyaudet> Yes of course. Moreover I may have a contest for students on the design with a prize :)
[13:09] <mirek2> for students?
[13:09] <LLyaudet> I'll exactly what I need in the next weeks
[13:09] <LLyaudet> *know*
[13:09] <mirek2> ok, post to the mailing list then
[13:09] <mirek2> or we can chat about it here again
[13:10] <mirek2> so, next topic...
[13:10] <@ahmd> default template?
[13:10] <mirek2> sounds good
[13:10] <mirek2> what's the progress so far?
[13:10] <@ahmd> ok, i've finished coding most of the style
[13:11] <@ahmd> remaining is the spaces between headers and paragraphs
[13:11] <mirek2> ok
[13:12] <@ahmd> also i forgot earlier to change placeholder color...
[13:12] <mirek2> what's the reasoning behind that, btw?
[13:12] <@ahmd> the color isn't suitable
[13:12] <mirek2> why is that?
[13:13] <@ahmd> i forgot the name of the color, just a moment
[13:14] <@ahmd> color cayan 4
[13:15] <@ahmd> somebody complained about it in the mailing list
[13:15] <mirek2> oh, ok
[13:15] <mirek2> anything you'd like feedback on in regards to the default theme?
[13:16] <mirek2> (I plan to give feedback when it's coded and pushed)
[13:16] <@ahmd> headers sizes now are 130% 115% 100% 85% 85% 75% 75%
[13:16] <mirek2> what's 100%
[13:16] <mirek2> ?
[13:16] <@ahmd> these are web css sizes
[13:16] <@ahmd> which is the code is using
[13:17] <mirek2> 100% =12pt? isn't that too small for heading 3?
[13:17] <@ahmd> no it's 14
[13:17] <LLyaudet> is there a screenshot of a sample document with default theme?
[13:17] <@ahmd> it's 12 for the serif and 14 for sans
[13:17] <@ahmd> i'll push the code sometime tomorrow
[13:18] <@ahmd> we'll have plenty of time to make changes
[13:18] <mirek2> why is that?
[13:18] <mirek2> isn't that unnecessarily inconsistent?
[13:18] <mirek2> looking forward to it
[13:18] <@ahmd> inconsistent with?
[13:18] <mirek2> 12 for serif, 14 for sans
[13:18] <mirek2> inconsistent with each other
[13:18] <@ahmd> the base size for each font
[13:19] <@ahmd> i'm talking about liberation
[13:20] <mirek2> will replacing sans with serif in a theme shrink the font size?
[13:20] <mirek2> I feel like the base size should be 12pt for both...
[13:21] <@ahmd> that's how Liberation designers did it
[13:22] <mirek2> how does that affect font replacement, though?
[13:22] <@ahmd> i've to test it
[13:22] <mirek2> if you use Liberation Serif for headings, does 100% suddenly mean 12pt?
[13:23] <@ahmd> yes
[13:23] <@ahmd> it's not doing that...!
[13:23] <@ahmd> sorry, then no
[13:24] <@ahmd> there is something i'm missing here!!
[13:25] <mirek2> so... 100% for body text != 100% for headings? I'm confused...
[13:26] <@ahmd> OK it looks that it measures based on the parent style, not font base size!
[13:26] <@ahmd> if the parent is 14 then 100% for the child is 14...
[13:26] <@ahmd> and so on
[13:26] <mirek2> that makes sense
[13:27] <mirek2> in that case, perhaps the parent for headings could be 12
[13:27] <@ahmd> but that's not the way it should work
[13:27] <mirek2> as it's easier to divide
[13:27] <@ahmd> it should be based on the font base size
[13:27] <mirek2> no, that would make it more confusing
[13:28] <@ahmd> that's how browsers work...
[13:28] <mirek2> with CSS, 100% = 12pt
[13:28] <mirek2> unless there's a parent
[13:28] <mirek2> in which case 100% is 100% of the parent font size
[13:29] <mirek2> that's the way LibreOffice should work as well, IMHO
[13:29] <@ahmd> ok... then
[13:30] <@ahmd> do you build LO at home or you download nightly builds?
[13:30] <mirek2> I build it
[13:30] <@ahmd> ok i'll ping you when i push it
[13:31] <mirek2> ok, sounds good
[13:31] <@ahmd> this will help also for more feedback
[13:31] <@ahmd> then i'll start making a proposal for the whole styling system
[13:32] <@ahmd> since i'm already involved with the code now...
[13:32] <@ahmd> can you start a wiki page for that?
[13:32] <mirek2> perhaps you start it?
[13:32] <mirek2> I'm not sure what a whole new styling system entails
[13:33] <@ahmd> making it more user friendly ...
[13:33] <mirek2> there's a template at https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Whiteboard_Template
[13:33] <@ahmd> thanks will start a new page for it
[13:34] <@ahmd> and i'll update the default template page
[13:34] <mirek2> ahmd: sure, but can you remove styles? can you add styles? can you change the ODF standard to use CSS instead of what it uses now? (probably not) etc.
[13:35] <mirek2> (that was in response to what all it entails; nevermind that)
[13:35] <mirek2> sounds good :)
[13:35] <mirek2> any other topics?
[13:36] <mirek2> I'll see if we can have a chat on the start center during the week...
[13:36] <mirek2> it'd be really good to have Kendy there
[13:37] <@ahmd> how about setting a time within the week to discuss with him?
[13:38] <LLyaudet> I will probably not be able to join if it's during the week.
[13:38] <mirek2> I'll try to do that
[13:39] <LLyaudet> I'll post any interesting opinion on the start center on the ml
[13:39] <mirek2> please do
[13:39] <mirek2> and please discuss the individual parts
[13:39] <LLyaudet> ok
[13:39] <mirek2> great :)
[13:41] <@ahmd> ok, i've to leave know...
[13:41] <@ahmd> bye :)
[13:41] <LLyaudet> Thanks for the meeting Bye :)
[13:41] <mirek2> see you
[13:41] <mirek2> I'll post the log
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