Design/Meetings/2013-11-10

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Attendees

astron
LLyaudet
mahfiaz
mirek2
Topics

Start Center
Log

[11:55] <astron247_> hi
[11:55] <mirek2> hi guys
[11:56] <mirek2> has anyone succeeded with opening StartCenter.ui in Glade?
[11:56] <mirek2> Glade keeps crashing on me...
[11:56] <astron247_> i can try -- where is the file?
[11:57] <mirek2> http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/tree/sfx2/uiconfig/ui/startcenter.ui
[11:58] <astron247_> opens, but tells me that the libreoffice catalogue is unavailable
[11:58] <mirek2> See the discussion on http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Welcome-graphics-for-the-Startcenter-in-4-2-td4077497i40.html#a4082302
[11:59] <astron247_> okay ... so you are telling me, i should try to create a sidebar?
[12:01] <astron247_> that should not be a problem, though, three points:
[12:01] == LLyaudet [58ab762a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.171.118.42] has joined #libreoffice-design
[12:02] <LLyaudet> hi
[12:02] <mirek2> hi there
[12:02] <astron247_> 1. logically it does not make much sense to connect the green and the white area actually -- it does look better of course
[12:03] <astron247_> 2. i have no idea how to get a green area there – i dont know but i guess glade is not made for creating custom-coloured controls
[12:04] <mirek2> that's ok -- we can just design it without color, Kendy will add it later
[12:04] <mirek2> I think Kendy said on the ML that adding that green is a bit more complicated
[12:04] <astron247_> 3. id rather like if we could replace the logo with a pattern
[12:04] <mirek2> +1
[12:04] <mirek2> or with nothing at all
[12:05] <astron247_> no, some secondary branding is probably a good idea, but i hate the way current libo versions have the logo palstered all over them
[12:05] <LLyaudet> the logo in the sidebar ?
[12:06] <astron247_> LLyaudet:  http://i.imgur.com/RUfcMlw.jpg
[12:06] <astron247_> the start centre design were discussing
[12:06] <LLyaudet> yes I'm lloking at that already
[12:06] <LLyaudet> thx anyway :)
[12:07] <astron247_> ah sorry
[12:07] <astron247_> yes, thats the logo i mean
[12:07] <LLyaudet> I think a logo on the start center is needed
[12:07] <astron247_> what for?
[12:07] <LLyaudet> maybe not in other places but a start center needs it
[12:09] <mirek2> I have to agree with Astron here
[12:09] <mirek2> the SC is there to fulfil a role
[12:10] <mirek2> a role similar to (though much more basic than) e.g. Google Docs's document overview, or the in-app file manager in Android/iOS apps
[12:11] <LLyaudet> I don't know, it feels more human to allow it.
[12:11] <mirek2> tacking on unnecessary elements just adds clutter to the UI
[12:11] <astron247_> what do you mean by "feels more human"?
[12:11] <astron247_> btw, as a replacement, i was thinking about: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Motif
[12:12] <LLyaudet> empty spaces can be *moderately* filled with elements that are unnecessary for ergonomics
[12:12] <astron247_> (but we'd need a whitish version of this)
[12:12] <mirek2> LLyaudet: but that's at the cost of visual clutter
[12:13] <mirek2> the user has to process all those extra elements and separate them out from actionable elements
[12:13] <LLyaudet> yes let me give an example
[12:16] <LLyaudet> when reading a scientific article in a journal, the title is repeated on the upper part of half of the pages ; it is usefull because it helps finding the article if you browse through the journal but it also feels more "finished" than the pdf of just the article without it.
[12:16] <mirek2> go ahead
[12:17] <LLyaudet> it 's hard to express this feeling, it's not purely rational
[12:18] <astron247_> we already have colour recognition (and if we go for the motif: shape recognition). both are elements of the brand
[12:19] <mirek2> we have the app name in the title bar and, in some cases, in another bar (on Gnome, it's part of the app menu, on macOS, it's in the menu as well, in older Windows builds, it's in the taskbar, ...)
[12:19] <LLyaudet> I'm ok for the motif as well
[12:19] <mirek2> I'd prefer to keep the space empty
[12:20] <mirek2> but if you agree on the motif, I won't argue with you
[12:20] <mirek2> astron247_: would you like to produce the tentative design?
[12:20] <astron247_> maybe...
[12:20] <astron247_> do we need this tomorrow?
[12:21] <mirek2> it'd be good to have, yes
[12:21] <astron247_> then not
[12:21] <mirek2> at least a mockup?
[12:21] <astron247_> ok.
[12:21] <mirek2> ok, great
[12:22] <astron247_> another concern of mine: wed need custom buttons that look good with a green background, where are we going to get these?
[12:22] <mirek2> you mean, for the on-hover and active states?
[12:22] <astron247_> yep
[12:23] <mirek2> is it possible to define our own for those?
[12:24] <astron247_> the best i can think of using link-like underlined elements. other than that, no, i guess there is not much we can do.
[12:24] <astron247_> as normal buttons are drawn by the OS's UI drawing library (Gtk, Cocoa, GDI, etc.)
[12:26] <mirek2> that's through VCL, though
[12:27] <mirek2> so maybe we could have an exception for these buttons?
[12:27] <astron247_> VCL asks the platform library to draw.
[12:27] <mirek2> would be good to ask Kendy....
[12:28] <mirek2> if we can't draw the hover and active states ourselves, should we keep the background white/light gray/light green?
[12:28] <astron247_> ok. ill put something like this in the mockup
[12:29] <mirek2> ok
[12:29] <LLyaudet> I have a question concerning the sidebar : it seems odd to me on the right, especially when there is no  recent document
[12:29] <LLyaudet> I tried putting it on the left : http://i.imgur.com/M3gdrcQ.jpg
[12:30] <mirek2> I agree that it's better to have it on the left
[12:30] <mirek2> seems more logical, at least in a LTR world
[12:31] <mirek2> the tab bar should begin at the very left of the dialog, though
[12:31] <LLyaudet> Moreover it seems needed for Open and Templates
[12:34] <mirek2> that's another concern I wanted to bring up:
[12:34] <mirek2> the appearance of the Open and Templates buttons
[12:34] <mirek2> is it clear enough that they are clickable compared to "Create New"?
[12:35] <LLyaudet> it seems so
[12:35] <mirek2> and is it possible to have the arrows as part of the button?
[12:35] <astron247_> i think the mockup suggests, they open inside the same window.
[12:35] <mirek2> if not, perhaps the two could take on a more standard button appearance, with an icon
[12:35] <mirek2> astron247_: but they won't in the current implementation
[12:36] <astron247_> i know. just trying to explain the mockup to you & myself
[12:36] <mirek2> ok
[12:37] <mirek2> so... standard button appearance, yes or no?
[12:37] <LLyaudet> I think we could put Open and Templates in two "boxes" delimited by a rectangle with "circle corners"
[12:38] <LLyaudet> the boxes could be just a small line with darker green
[12:38] <LLyaudet> I'll try to draw it quick
[12:44] <LLyaudet> ok it's quite ugly right now : http://i.imgur.com/YdC3Vzs.jpg
[12:44] <LLyaudet> I need to find a better dark green
[12:44] <mirek2> :)
[12:44] <LLyaudet> but you see the idea :)
[12:45] <mirek2> How about just getting rid of the arrows at the ends and adding icons at the beginning, like the rest of the sidebar buttons?
[12:46] <LLyaudet> I like the arrows because you see you're still in the start center by clicking these
[12:46] <mirek2> LLyaudet: no, not in the current implementation?
[12:46] <mirek2> -?
[12:46] <LLyaudet> ok didn't knew
[12:46] <mirek2> right now, Templates and Open are separate dialogs
[12:47] <mirek2> "Create new" could be smaller, to separate it out from the buttons
[12:47] <LLyaudet> then it doesn't need arrows
[12:47] <mirek2> yes, but it needs to be separated from "Create new", which isn't a button
[12:47] <LLyaudet> indeed
[12:49] <mirek2> theoretically, there doesn't need to be a header
[12:49] <mirek2> the buttons could just read "New Document", "New Spreadsheet", ...
[12:49] <astron247_> well, we could change the order (open & templates first), and then give Create a smaller font size
[12:50] <mirek2> why change the order?
[12:50] <mirek2> Create seems more important, as Open is partly taken care of by the recent documents
[12:50] <LLyaudet> I think "Create new" is better than "New Document", "New Spreadsheet" (factorisation)
[12:51] <LLyaudet> size of create b
[12:51] <mirek2> yes, but the buttons also say less themselves
[12:51] <mirek2> it's generally better to have the whole action described by the button
[12:51] <LLyaudet> must be slightly larger than Document, Spreadsheet
[12:52] <LLyaudet> maybe for accessibility you're right
[12:52] <mirek2> not just for accessibility
[12:52] <mirek2> but generally for scanning the UI
[12:52] <mirek2> it applies especially to dialog boxes and infoboxes
[12:53] <mirek2> where the user often just reads the buttons
[12:55] <LLyaudet> what about "Create" and "New document", "New spreadsheet", etc.
[12:55] <mirek2> that's a possibility
[12:56] <LLyaudet> this way we still group the "new _"
[12:56] <mirek2> sounds good
[12:57] <LLyaudet> ok approved for everybody ?
[12:57] <mirek2> I think so
[12:57] <LLyaudet> :)
[12:58] <mirek2> astron247_: ?
[13:00] <mirek2> still there?
[13:02] <astron247_> yes. sorry. working on the mockup
[13:03] <mirek2> ok
[13:03] <mirek2> another issue: how do we deal with the sidebar background transitioning into the tab bar?
[13:07] <mirek2> ideas?
[13:08] <mirek2> should we have stark contrast between the white of the tab and green of the sidebar?
[13:09] <mirek2> or have the sidebar and the active tab have the same color? (my preferred solution)
[13:09] <mirek2> astron247_: I assume you're playing with ideas on how to transition?
[13:09] <LLyaudet> I agree with you (have the sidebar and the active tab have the same color)
[13:12] <mirek2> in that case, the sidebar would have to be a light color
[13:13] <LLyaudet> why ?
[13:15] <mirek2> I'm not sure how much customization the tab bar allows (if any), but since we'll be using native widgets, which tend to be designed for dark text on light backgrounds, a dark tab would seem out of place
[13:15] <mirek2> there's also the question of the transition to the document area
[13:16] <mirek2> if we want a smooth transition, that would probably mean the sidebar, the document area, and the active tab should all have the same background
[13:17] <mirek2> or we could have a linear gradient at the top of either the sidebar or the document area
[13:18] <LLyaudet> Is the small line on the active tab with same color as sidebar's bakcground impossible to do ?
[13:19] <mirek2> we'd be using native widgets, so I would assume that we wouldn't have that line
[13:19] <LLyaudet> ok
[13:21] <LLyaudet> what options do we have with backgrounds widgets : if we have background image with repeat for the length we can do the line
[13:21] <LLyaudet> *native* widgets
[13:22] <mirek2> ask Kendy or Astron
[13:22] <LLyaudet> thx I'll do :)
[13:23] <mirek2> the thing is, some themes have their own rectangle at the top of the tab, which could interfere with our own
[13:23] <LLyaudet> ok
[13:24] <mirek2> but VCL is not my area of expertise
[13:25] <LLyaudet> I'll try to find time to document myself on VCL. I need to know what is possible compared to applying CSS to some elements
[13:26] <mirek2> sounds good
[13:31] <mirek2> astron247_: how's the mockup coming along
[13:31] <mirek2> do you need anything else discussed?
[13:32] <LLyaudet> no
[13:35] <LLyaudet> I have kendy mail from the mails to the ml but I don't think I have astron's. I'll ask Kendy if I need help with VCL
[13:36] <mirek2> ok
[13:39] <astron247_> not that far: http://jsfiddle.net/2J4mV/
[13:40] <astron247_> LLyaudet: you need my email address..?
[13:40] <mirek2> wow, a whole HTML prototype
[13:41] <astron247_> mirek2: its not much actually. and it does not work at all...
[13:41] <LLyaudet> yes please :)
[13:42] <LLyaudet> can you give me a pointer to start with VCL (source code, doc?) ?
[13:42] <mirek2> astron247_: I know; still, a lot more that a static mockup
[13:43] <astron247_> actually, for simplicity's sake: do we need the category chooser (spreadsheets, presentations, etc.)?)
[13:44] <LLyaudet> you mean in the tab bar ?
[13:44] <astron247_> yes, that.
[13:44] <astron247_> are there really that many different recent documents that it actually makes sense?
[13:45] <astron247_> surely we just display the last ~100 documents or so?
[13:45] <mirek2> in the future, it would be good to have, but I guess it doesn't make much sense right now
[13:45] <LLyaudet> it seems a good idea to have it but maybe it's not really needed I don't know
[13:46] <astron247_> also, would you agree that the sidebar would look cleaner with single-coloured icons?
[13:46] <LLyaudet> recent documents must really be used for the last 3-5 documents I think
[13:48] <LLyaudet> I mean most of the time
[13:48] <mirek2> astron247_: yes, but monochrome icons would also lead to slower recognition times
[13:49] <LLyaudet> astron247_ : I don't know. I need to see bot to compare
[13:49] <LLyaudet> *both
[13:49] <mirek2> (recall when OpenOffice.org stopped using color to differentiate modules)
[13:49] <astron247_> mirek2: wow. you against monochrome icons :)
[13:49] <mirek2> I wouldn't say I'm against them
[13:49] <mirek2> but we should weigh both sides
[13:50] <mirek2> we could also make this icon theme dependent
[13:50] <mirek2> now that we have a WIP monochrome icon theme
[13:50] <LLyaudet> I like the idea  that it could be done icon theme dependent
[13:51] <astron247_> ok. that seems like a "no" overall.
[13:51] <mirek2> :)
[13:53] <astron247_> ok, shall we stop here? ill send my results to the ml tonight.
[13:54] <mirek2> don't forget to mock up a screen with no recents as well
[13:54] <astron247_> ok
[13:54] <mirek2> btw, I'd prefer if there wasn't a "Recent documents" header, purely for cosmetic reasons
[13:55] <astron247_> lets see. ill need to work on the alignment, i noticed that.
[13:56] <LLyaudet> I must go. Bye :)
[13:56] <astron247_> bye
[13:56] <mirek2> see you
[13:56] <mirek2> oh, and don't forget to include the menu bar
[13:57] <astron247_> right
[13:57] <astron247_> so, kendy has told us in the meantime that it cant be hidden somehow?
[13:58] <mirek2> he said he'd rather just streamline it for now
[13:58] <astron247_> ok
[13:58] <mirek2> (which, in this case, makes sense, as not all menu items are included in the sidebar)
[13:59] <astron247_> I can include help, options and addons...
[13:59] <astron247_> although it would get too much
[13:59] <mirek2> well, since we'll have the menu anyway, I don't think that's necessary
[13:59] <astron247_> fine
[14:00] == LLyaudet [58ab762a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.171.118.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
[14:00] <mirek2> also, could you try to make the buttons look as close to native as possible (font + icon sizes and all)?
[14:01] <mirek2> or perhaps we're going for a uniform size regardless of platform?
[14:07] <mirek2> astron247_: ?
[14:14] == astron247_ [~frootzowr@p54AFF16A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
[14:15] == astron247_ [~frootzowr@p54AFEF23.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #libreoffice-design
[14:15] <mahfiaz> I read the backlog and have to (at least partially) agree with LLyaudet
[14:15] <mirek2> on what?
[14:16] <mahfiaz> not because of using logos is "human", but I have seen strange startup screens which just look like they are half baked (especially when empty)
[14:16] <mahfiaz> fortunately the lastly linked image is not plague by this, it looks just beautiful http://i.imgur.com/M3gdrcQ.jpg)
[14:19] <mahfiaz> and just a thought, probably not helpful at all, but tabs and new document menu items are quite similar, maybe these could be somehow unified (but again, this is just random though and would break the aesthetics of current design, also would leave too much empty room)
[14:20] <mirek2> as I said, I'd prefer to leave the space empty (the added benefic of that would be no need to work on hiding the image when there's not enough space for it), but it seems Astron and LLyaudet agreed on having the motif there
[14:20] <mirek2> mahfiaz: we're probably getting rid of tabs for v1
[14:22] <astron247_> sorry mirek – yes, i think we should go for a uniform look of the buttons on all platforms (the font will be different of course, but i think a change in font size is well warranted)
[14:23] <mahfiaz> mirek2: no objections here, just chiming in
[14:23] <mahfiaz> also getting rid of tabs would be interesting, but I cannot guarantee that I would like it more, but who knows :)
[14:23] <mirek2> astron247_:
[14:23] <mirek2> ok
[14:23] <mahfiaz> anyway I'm impressed with this good work (thumbs up)
[14:38] <mirek2> sorry, I haven't been very focused
[14:39] <mirek2> astron247_: why is a uniform font size needed?
[14:39] <mirek2> if we're using icons, shouldn't the text size match the icons based on the platform, like it would in the toolbar?
[14:40] <mirek2> (the icon size would, of course, be uniform, as is the case with toolbars)
[14:41] <mirek2> or is the font size in the toolbar always uniform as well?
[14:57] <astron247_> mirek2: but were using bigger icons at the side (i went for 32*32), it just wouldnt look good with a 8-10pt font size
[15:00] <mirek2> ok