Design/Meetings/2014-02-23

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Attendees

  • mirek
  • astron
  • Llyaudet

Topics

  • Tango Testing icons
  • Sifr icons
  • Writer/Table options

Log

[11:18] <astron> hi. sorry for being late
[11:18] <mirek> I came as late as you did :)
[11:18] <mirek> (a minute ago)
[11:18] <astron> oh...
[11:18] <astron> ok
[11:19] <mirek> any topics we'd like to get done today?
[11:19] <astron> so... there was something on the call about icons
[11:19] <astron> björn would love a lighter version of sifr
[11:20] <astron> (for people using dark themes)
[11:20] <LLyaudet> hi all
[11:20] <astron> who do we go to with that?
[11:20] <astron> hi
[11:20] <mirek> ahmad
[11:20] <mirek> I'm all for Sifr light
[11:20] <astron> ok
[11:20] <mirek> we should use it instead of the HC theme we have
[11:21] <astron> also, a hidpi (pixel-doubled) version would imho be good
[11:21] <mirek> (that one is terrible)
[11:21] <astron> mirek2: the thing is, i dont know if sifr really works as an accessbile theme
[11:21] <mirek> astron: I suppose
[11:21] <mirek> astron: what do you mean?
[11:22] <mirek> imho, the icons are much clearer than the HC icons
[11:23] <astron> well, i am just not sure (fine lines? etc.)
[11:23] <mirek> doesn't SIFR have thicker lines than the current HC theme?
[11:23] <astron> i would like to ask someone who has an accessibility background first
[11:24] <mirek> definitely
[11:24] <astron> so, i would open a bug about that... ok?
[11:24] <mirek> sure, go ahead
[11:26] <astron> also, do we still need tango_testing now that almost all the icons are on tango?
[11:26] <astron> (tango_testing as a theme, not as a repository)
[11:26] <mirek> I don't think we do
[11:26] <astron> ok
[11:28] <mirek> I still plan to push the icons
[11:29] <astron> good...
[11:30] <astron> also, if youre interested in creating (as non-controversial as possible) design easy hacks... that would be great
[11:30] <astron> like string changes, or missing tooltips etc.
[11:31] <mirek> I've been really busy lately
[11:31] <mirek> but will do if I have the time
[11:32] <mirek> btw, as for string changes: wouldn't it be easier to just make the changes?
[11:33] <astron> depends
[11:33] <astron> but generally, yes.
[11:35] <mirek> anything else?
[11:35] <mirek> perhaps we can look at options again?
[11:36] <LLyaudet> ok
[11:38] <mirek> ok, then...
[11:39] <mirek> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Options/Writer#Table
[11:40] <mirek> Repeat on each page
[11:40] <mirek> this seems like a style setting rather than a global setting
[11:41] <astron> it also sets the default for tables, but yes, it is a style settign
[11:41] <mirek> and it's set when inserting a table
[11:42] <LLyaudet> It is an option and it is also in Table menu right now
[11:42] <mirek> so, given our decision for "Heading", I would say this is advanced as well
[11:42] <mirek> agreed?
[11:43] <LLyaudet> agree
[11:43] <astron> wait... let me check
[11:44] <astron> i dont really know about making this advanced. this seems like a genuinely useful setting
[11:45] <astron> of course, you can also set it when creating a table, but i would bet that it saves a lot of people from that trouble each time they insert a table
[11:45] <mirek> but it's set when creating a table
[11:45] <astron> as i said, in the options, it's permanent
[11:45] <mirek> Perhaps we should remember the last choice, then, as proposed with Heading as well?
[11:45] <astron> right. that would make sense
[11:46] <LLyaudet> yes
[11:46] <mirek> ok
[11:46] <mirek> "Do not split (not in HTML)"
[11:46] <mirek> the same?
[11:48] <astron> yep
[11:48] <mirek> and the same with Border, I assume?
[11:49] <LLyaudet> yes
[11:49] <mirek> would be great to have table styles for these kinds of things...
[11:49] <astron> right
[11:50] <mirek> Number recognition
[11:51] <mirek> is there any way to get the same functionality without the Options dialog?
[11:53] <astron> well, libo could always ask, if you want to treat this number like a date/time/...
[11:53] <astron> (e.g. see ms office's smarttags)
[11:53] <LLyaudet> It doesn't seem so. There is number format in table menu but it only appplies to the cells
[11:53] <LLyaudet> *selected cells
[11:54] <mirek> that's too bad
[11:55] <astron> hm... could quickly go back to the previous four options...
[11:55] <mirek> sure
[11:55] <astron> i think lots of people dojn't even know the "insert table" dialogue exists, because they are creating tables from the toolbar
[11:56] <astron> personally, see it rather seldomly, because i always use the little arrow next to the icon
[11:56] <mirek> true
[11:56] <astron> so these people wouldnt really get the chance to set these options (or see that these options are set)
[11:57] <astron> ^dojn't^don't
[11:57] <astron> not sure if those same people care about repeating headers or not ... just wanted to bring it up
[11:58] <mirek> I feel like Table styles would be the ideal solution
[11:58] <mirek> especially given that not all tables are alike
[11:59] <mirek> e.g. "Heading" is very table-specific
[11:59] <LLyaudet> I agree
[11:59] <astron> right...
[12:00] <mirek> I feel like the discoverability of these properties is another matter to setting the defaults under options
[12:01] <astron> ..?
[12:01] <astron> what does that mean?
[12:01] <mirek> I mean that finding where to set these properties (e.g. under Insert > Table) is one thing
[12:01] <mirek> and setting the defaults in Options is another
[12:02] <astron> right
[12:02] <mirek> so the solution isn't to make these things more visible in Options, but to make the per-table properties more discoverable
[12:04] <mirek> it'd be good to at least bring some table properties to the Properties panel
[12:04] <mirek> (the sidebar panel)
[12:04] <astron> ok right. please add that to the description in the wiki page too
[12:04] <mirek> will do
[12:07] <mirek> anyway, back to number recognition
[12:07] <mirek> it seems that it's not a table property...
[12:08] <mirek> so, as much as it pains me to say it, perhaps it should be generic?
[12:08] <LLyaudet> In the current state, I think so
[12:10] <mirek> astron, what do you think?
[12:10] <astron> right, keep it generic
[12:10] <mirek> ok
[12:11] <mirek> Number format recognition
[12:11] <mirek> not sure I understand what this does...
[12:12] <mirek> important to note: Number format recognition and Alignment are both tied to Number recognition
[12:12] <astron>  i can see that.
[12:13] <astron> Help: If Number format recognition is not marked, only input in the format that has been set at the cell is accepted. Any other input resets the format to Text.
[12:14] <astron> right... that is in the wiki already
[12:15] <astron> i would think, this refers to locally different number formats etc.?
[12:16] <astron> eg, your local date format actually is 12/23/2004, but libreoffice, with this option would also recognise 23/12/2004
[12:16] <astron> or so??
[12:17] <mirek> I understood it this way:
[12:17] <mirek> if the option is not marked, when you mark a cell with e.g. the Date format, it only recognizes dates
[12:17] <mirek> and any other numbers are treated as text
[12:17] <astron> or that
[12:18] <mirek> if it is marked, I guess it might try to make out what kind of number was input
[12:18] <mirek> not sure how to tell, though...
[12:18] <astron> ok.
[12:19] <astron> could you create some category like "ask a developer"?
[12:19] <mirek> actually, that guess might be wrong
[12:19] <mirek> sure :)
[12:20] <astron> maybe not a category, but jsut add some extra rtext
[12:20] <astron> ^rtext^text
[12:20] <mirek> I think a category's fine
[12:21] <mirek> "Alignment" should be renamed
[12:21] <mirek> perhaps to something like "Align numbers separately", or something like that...
[12:22] <mirek> and I guess I'd mark it as Generic as well
[12:23] <astron> right
[12:23] <mirek> agreed?
[12:23] <astron> actually, the last three items, i noticed were cell formats
[12:23] <astron> so... that may be another case for the sidebar..?
[12:24] <mirek> the difference is whether it makes sense to set these things per cell
[12:24] <mirek> e.g. alignment seems like it should be set at least per table
[12:25] <astron> per column, probably, but yes
[12:25] <mirek> can number alignment be set per cell?
[12:26] <mirek> also, what exactly do you propose? to have the settings be advanced, and remember the last cell setting?
[12:30] <astron> so, my proposal is entirely theoretical right now... since the sidebar does not yet seem to have any table or cell properties
[12:31] <astron> in any case: table and cell properties could be displayed at the same time in the sidebar
[12:31] <astron> so, you could select multiple cells or even the entire table and select a fitting cellalignment mode
[12:31] <astron> ^cellalignment^cell alignment
[12:32] <astron> and yes, you could also store the setting from the last usage and make the option advanced too
[12:33] <LLyaudet> I must go see you :)
[12:34] <mirek> hm...
[12:34] <mirek> so should I mark it as advanced and note that?
[12:34] <mirek> or generic for now?
[12:35] <astron> generic + a long note?
[12:35] <mirek> ok
[12:37] <mirek> moving on...
[12:37] <mirek> Move cells
[12:38] <mirek> i would mark that as advanced
[12:38] <mirek> just given the nature of the feature
[12:39] <astron> i guess...
[12:40] <mirek> insert cells the same?
[12:40] <astron> is it relevant for accessibility?
[12:41] <astron> (i dont even know how to enable these functions, so it must be soem arcane accessibility key combination)
[12:41] <mirek> it seems alt+arrow key moves the cells
[12:41] <astron> ^soem^some
[12:41] <mirek> not moves, but increases the size of
[12:41] <astron> ahh...
[12:41] <mirek> not sure if that's it, but I suppose it is
[12:41] <astron> "move" is weird word anyway here... is it actually correct?
[12:43] <mirek> it doesn't seem so...
[12:43] <astron> this sounds as if, originally the function was called "move cell border" which then got shortened to "move cell"
[12:43] <mirek> sounds like it, yes
[12:43] <astron> ill file a bug about this...
[12:43] <astron> should it be in the ux-advise component?
[12:43] <mirek> on the other hand, it does move rows/columns...
[12:44] <mirek> that depends whether you want more designer feedback
[12:45] <astron> in how far does it move things? it increases/decreases the size of cells
[12:46] <mirek> it moves rows/columns
[12:46] <mirek> it doesn't increase the size of just the single cell, but also the rows or columns it's in
[12:48] <astron> right ...but thats not really moving
[12:48] <mirek> right
[12:49] <astron> for moving, id expect rows/columns to swap palces
[12:49] <astron> ^palces^places
[12:49] <mirek> true
[12:51] <mirek> anyway, advanced?
[12:51] <astron> yes
[12:52] <mirek> same with insertion?
[12:52] <astron> yes
[12:52] <mirek> (not sure how to insert with the keyboard, though)
[12:52] <astron> hm
[12:52] <astron> it would be nice if the help explained it
[12:53] <mirek> yup
[12:54] <astron> ok.
[12:54] <mirek> Behavior of rows/columns
[12:55] <astron> is that available in table settings?
[12:55] <mirek> seems to be
[12:55] <astron> you misunderstood me... i meant the insert table dialogue.
[12:55] <astron> there, it is not available.
[12:56] <mirek> no, it's not
[12:56] <mirek> but it seems to be under "Table Properties" > "Columns" > "Adapt table width" + "Adjust columns proportionally"
[12:56] <astron> so, i guess => generic
[12:56] <mirek> (at least I think that's the same thing)
[12:56] <mirek> how about having it in the sidebar?
[12:56] <astron> right. might be
[12:56] <astron> ok
[12:57] <mirek> and advanced?
[12:57] <astron> ok
[12:58] <astron> should we stop here?
[12:58] <mirek> ok, sure
[12:58] <mirek> any other topics?
[12:59] <astron> not really
[12:59] <astron> ok, then.
[12:59] <mirek> not sure I'll be able to make it to the chat next week
[12:59] <astron> right.
[12:59] <mirek> should I cancel it, then?
[13:00] <astron> ill upload the log again (sorry for not doing it the whole of last week, but it will be immediate now)
[13:00] <astron> mirek2: you could.
[13:00] <astron> not sure i will be there either
[13:00] <mirek> ok :)
[13:00] <mirek> see you later, then
[13:01] <astron> see you