Design/Meetings/2014-02-23
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Attendees
- mirek
- astron
- Llyaudet
Topics
- Tango Testing icons
- Sifr icons
- Writer/Table options
Log
[11:18] <astron> hi. sorry for being late [11:18] <mirek> I came as late as you did :) [11:18] <mirek> (a minute ago) [11:18] <astron> oh... [11:18] <astron> ok [11:19] <mirek> any topics we'd like to get done today? [11:19] <astron> so... there was something on the call about icons [11:19] <astron> björn would love a lighter version of sifr [11:20] <astron> (for people using dark themes) [11:20] <LLyaudet> hi all [11:20] <astron> who do we go to with that? [11:20] <astron> hi [11:20] <mirek> ahmad [11:20] <mirek> I'm all for Sifr light [11:20] <astron> ok [11:20] <mirek> we should use it instead of the HC theme we have [11:21] <astron> also, a hidpi (pixel-doubled) version would imho be good [11:21] <mirek> (that one is terrible) [11:21] <astron> mirek2: the thing is, i dont know if sifr really works as an accessbile theme [11:21] <mirek> astron: I suppose [11:21] <mirek> astron: what do you mean? [11:22] <mirek> imho, the icons are much clearer than the HC icons [11:23] <astron> well, i am just not sure (fine lines? etc.) [11:23] <mirek> doesn't SIFR have thicker lines than the current HC theme? [11:23] <astron> i would like to ask someone who has an accessibility background first [11:24] <mirek> definitely [11:24] <astron> so, i would open a bug about that... ok? [11:24] <mirek> sure, go ahead [11:26] <astron> also, do we still need tango_testing now that almost all the icons are on tango? [11:26] <astron> (tango_testing as a theme, not as a repository) [11:26] <mirek> I don't think we do [11:26] <astron> ok [11:28] <mirek> I still plan to push the icons [11:29] <astron> good... [11:30] <astron> also, if youre interested in creating (as non-controversial as possible) design easy hacks... that would be great [11:30] <astron> like string changes, or missing tooltips etc. [11:31] <mirek> I've been really busy lately [11:31] <mirek> but will do if I have the time [11:32] <mirek> btw, as for string changes: wouldn't it be easier to just make the changes? [11:33] <astron> depends [11:33] <astron> but generally, yes. [11:35] <mirek> anything else? [11:35] <mirek> perhaps we can look at options again? [11:36] <LLyaudet> ok [11:38] <mirek> ok, then... [11:39] <mirek> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Options/Writer#Table [11:40] <mirek> Repeat on each page [11:40] <mirek> this seems like a style setting rather than a global setting [11:41] <astron> it also sets the default for tables, but yes, it is a style settign [11:41] <mirek> and it's set when inserting a table [11:42] <LLyaudet> It is an option and it is also in Table menu right now [11:42] <mirek> so, given our decision for "Heading", I would say this is advanced as well [11:42] <mirek> agreed? [11:43] <LLyaudet> agree [11:43] <astron> wait... let me check [11:44] <astron> i dont really know about making this advanced. this seems like a genuinely useful setting [11:45] <astron> of course, you can also set it when creating a table, but i would bet that it saves a lot of people from that trouble each time they insert a table [11:45] <mirek> but it's set when creating a table [11:45] <astron> as i said, in the options, it's permanent [11:45] <mirek> Perhaps we should remember the last choice, then, as proposed with Heading as well? [11:45] <astron> right. that would make sense [11:46] <LLyaudet> yes [11:46] <mirek> ok [11:46] <mirek> "Do not split (not in HTML)" [11:46] <mirek> the same? [11:48] <astron> yep [11:48] <mirek> and the same with Border, I assume? [11:49] <LLyaudet> yes [11:49] <mirek> would be great to have table styles for these kinds of things... [11:49] <astron> right [11:50] <mirek> Number recognition [11:51] <mirek> is there any way to get the same functionality without the Options dialog? [11:53] <astron> well, libo could always ask, if you want to treat this number like a date/time/... [11:53] <astron> (e.g. see ms office's smarttags) [11:53] <LLyaudet> It doesn't seem so. There is number format in table menu but it only appplies to the cells [11:53] <LLyaudet> *selected cells [11:54] <mirek> that's too bad [11:55] <astron> hm... could quickly go back to the previous four options... [11:55] <mirek> sure [11:55] <astron> i think lots of people dojn't even know the "insert table" dialogue exists, because they are creating tables from the toolbar [11:56] <astron> personally, see it rather seldomly, because i always use the little arrow next to the icon [11:56] <mirek> true [11:56] <astron> so these people wouldnt really get the chance to set these options (or see that these options are set) [11:57] <astron> ^dojn't^don't [11:57] <astron> not sure if those same people care about repeating headers or not ... just wanted to bring it up [11:58] <mirek> I feel like Table styles would be the ideal solution [11:58] <mirek> especially given that not all tables are alike [11:59] <mirek> e.g. "Heading" is very table-specific [11:59] <LLyaudet> I agree [11:59] <astron> right... [12:00] <mirek> I feel like the discoverability of these properties is another matter to setting the defaults under options [12:01] <astron> ..? [12:01] <astron> what does that mean? [12:01] <mirek> I mean that finding where to set these properties (e.g. under Insert > Table) is one thing [12:01] <mirek> and setting the defaults in Options is another [12:02] <astron> right [12:02] <mirek> so the solution isn't to make these things more visible in Options, but to make the per-table properties more discoverable [12:04] <mirek> it'd be good to at least bring some table properties to the Properties panel [12:04] <mirek> (the sidebar panel) [12:04] <astron> ok right. please add that to the description in the wiki page too [12:04] <mirek> will do [12:07] <mirek> anyway, back to number recognition [12:07] <mirek> it seems that it's not a table property... [12:08] <mirek> so, as much as it pains me to say it, perhaps it should be generic? [12:08] <LLyaudet> In the current state, I think so [12:10] <mirek> astron, what do you think? [12:10] <astron> right, keep it generic [12:10] <mirek> ok [12:11] <mirek> Number format recognition [12:11] <mirek> not sure I understand what this does... [12:12] <mirek> important to note: Number format recognition and Alignment are both tied to Number recognition [12:12] <astron> i can see that. [12:13] <astron> Help: If Number format recognition is not marked, only input in the format that has been set at the cell is accepted. Any other input resets the format to Text. [12:14] <astron> right... that is in the wiki already [12:15] <astron> i would think, this refers to locally different number formats etc.? [12:16] <astron> eg, your local date format actually is 12/23/2004, but libreoffice, with this option would also recognise 23/12/2004 [12:16] <astron> or so?? [12:17] <mirek> I understood it this way: [12:17] <mirek> if the option is not marked, when you mark a cell with e.g. the Date format, it only recognizes dates [12:17] <mirek> and any other numbers are treated as text [12:17] <astron> or that [12:18] <mirek> if it is marked, I guess it might try to make out what kind of number was input [12:18] <mirek> not sure how to tell, though... [12:18] <astron> ok. [12:19] <astron> could you create some category like "ask a developer"? [12:19] <mirek> actually, that guess might be wrong [12:19] <mirek> sure :) [12:20] <astron> maybe not a category, but jsut add some extra rtext [12:20] <astron> ^rtext^text [12:20] <mirek> I think a category's fine [12:21] <mirek> "Alignment" should be renamed [12:21] <mirek> perhaps to something like "Align numbers separately", or something like that... [12:22] <mirek> and I guess I'd mark it as Generic as well [12:23] <astron> right [12:23] <mirek> agreed? [12:23] <astron> actually, the last three items, i noticed were cell formats [12:23] <astron> so... that may be another case for the sidebar..? [12:24] <mirek> the difference is whether it makes sense to set these things per cell [12:24] <mirek> e.g. alignment seems like it should be set at least per table [12:25] <astron> per column, probably, but yes [12:25] <mirek> can number alignment be set per cell? [12:26] <mirek> also, what exactly do you propose? to have the settings be advanced, and remember the last cell setting? [12:30] <astron> so, my proposal is entirely theoretical right now... since the sidebar does not yet seem to have any table or cell properties [12:31] <astron> in any case: table and cell properties could be displayed at the same time in the sidebar [12:31] <astron> so, you could select multiple cells or even the entire table and select a fitting cellalignment mode [12:31] <astron> ^cellalignment^cell alignment [12:32] <astron> and yes, you could also store the setting from the last usage and make the option advanced too [12:33] <LLyaudet> I must go see you :) [12:34] <mirek> hm... [12:34] <mirek> so should I mark it as advanced and note that? [12:34] <mirek> or generic for now? [12:35] <astron> generic + a long note? [12:35] <mirek> ok [12:37] <mirek> moving on... [12:37] <mirek> Move cells [12:38] <mirek> i would mark that as advanced [12:38] <mirek> just given the nature of the feature [12:39] <astron> i guess... [12:40] <mirek> insert cells the same? [12:40] <astron> is it relevant for accessibility? [12:41] <astron> (i dont even know how to enable these functions, so it must be soem arcane accessibility key combination) [12:41] <mirek> it seems alt+arrow key moves the cells [12:41] <astron> ^soem^some [12:41] <mirek> not moves, but increases the size of [12:41] <astron> ahh... [12:41] <mirek> not sure if that's it, but I suppose it is [12:41] <astron> "move" is weird word anyway here... is it actually correct? [12:43] <mirek> it doesn't seem so... [12:43] <astron> this sounds as if, originally the function was called "move cell border" which then got shortened to "move cell" [12:43] <mirek> sounds like it, yes [12:43] <astron> ill file a bug about this... [12:43] <astron> should it be in the ux-advise component? [12:43] <mirek> on the other hand, it does move rows/columns... [12:44] <mirek> that depends whether you want more designer feedback [12:45] <astron> in how far does it move things? it increases/decreases the size of cells [12:46] <mirek> it moves rows/columns [12:46] <mirek> it doesn't increase the size of just the single cell, but also the rows or columns it's in [12:48] <astron> right ...but thats not really moving [12:48] <mirek> right [12:49] <astron> for moving, id expect rows/columns to swap palces [12:49] <astron> ^palces^places [12:49] <mirek> true [12:51] <mirek> anyway, advanced? [12:51] <astron> yes [12:52] <mirek> same with insertion? [12:52] <astron> yes [12:52] <mirek> (not sure how to insert with the keyboard, though) [12:52] <astron> hm [12:52] <astron> it would be nice if the help explained it [12:53] <mirek> yup [12:54] <astron> ok. [12:54] <mirek> Behavior of rows/columns [12:55] <astron> is that available in table settings? [12:55] <mirek> seems to be [12:55] <astron> you misunderstood me... i meant the insert table dialogue. [12:55] <astron> there, it is not available. [12:56] <mirek> no, it's not [12:56] <mirek> but it seems to be under "Table Properties" > "Columns" > "Adapt table width" + "Adjust columns proportionally" [12:56] <astron> so, i guess => generic [12:56] <mirek> (at least I think that's the same thing) [12:56] <mirek> how about having it in the sidebar? [12:56] <astron> right. might be [12:56] <astron> ok [12:57] <mirek> and advanced? [12:57] <astron> ok [12:58] <astron> should we stop here? [12:58] <mirek> ok, sure [12:58] <mirek> any other topics? [12:59] <astron> not really [12:59] <astron> ok, then. [12:59] <mirek> not sure I'll be able to make it to the chat next week [12:59] <astron> right. [12:59] <mirek> should I cancel it, then? [13:00] <astron> ill upload the log again (sorry for not doing it the whole of last week, but it will be immediate now) [13:00] <astron> mirek2: you could. [13:00] <astron> not sure i will be there either [13:00] <mirek> ok :) [13:00] <mirek> see you later, then [13:01] <astron> see you