Design/Meetings/2014-02-23

    From The Document Foundation Wiki

    Attendees

    • mirek
    • astron
    • Llyaudet

    Topics

    • Tango Testing icons
    • Sifr icons
    • Writer/Table options

    Log

    [11:18] <astron> hi. sorry for being late
    [11:18] <mirek> I came as late as you did :)
    [11:18] <mirek> (a minute ago)
    [11:18] <astron> oh...
    [11:18] <astron> ok
    [11:19] <mirek> any topics we'd like to get done today?
    [11:19] <astron> so... there was something on the call about icons
    [11:19] <astron> björn would love a lighter version of sifr
    [11:20] <astron> (for people using dark themes)
    [11:20] <LLyaudet> hi all
    [11:20] <astron> who do we go to with that?
    [11:20] <astron> hi
    [11:20] <mirek> ahmad
    [11:20] <mirek> I'm all for Sifr light
    [11:20] <astron> ok
    [11:20] <mirek> we should use it instead of the HC theme we have
    [11:21] <astron> also, a hidpi (pixel-doubled) version would imho be good
    [11:21] <mirek> (that one is terrible)
    [11:21] <astron> mirek2: the thing is, i dont know if sifr really works as an accessbile theme
    [11:21] <mirek> astron: I suppose
    [11:21] <mirek> astron: what do you mean?
    [11:22] <mirek> imho, the icons are much clearer than the HC icons
    [11:23] <astron> well, i am just not sure (fine lines? etc.)
    [11:23] <mirek> doesn't SIFR have thicker lines than the current HC theme?
    [11:23] <astron> i would like to ask someone who has an accessibility background first
    [11:24] <mirek> definitely
    [11:24] <astron> so, i would open a bug about that... ok?
    [11:24] <mirek> sure, go ahead
    [11:26] <astron> also, do we still need tango_testing now that almost all the icons are on tango?
    [11:26] <astron> (tango_testing as a theme, not as a repository)
    [11:26] <mirek> I don't think we do
    [11:26] <astron> ok
    [11:28] <mirek> I still plan to push the icons
    [11:29] <astron> good...
    [11:30] <astron> also, if youre interested in creating (as non-controversial as possible) design easy hacks... that would be great
    [11:30] <astron> like string changes, or missing tooltips etc.
    [11:31] <mirek> I've been really busy lately
    [11:31] <mirek> but will do if I have the time
    [11:32] <mirek> btw, as for string changes: wouldn't it be easier to just make the changes?
    [11:33] <astron> depends
    [11:33] <astron> but generally, yes.
    [11:35] <mirek> anything else?
    [11:35] <mirek> perhaps we can look at options again?
    [11:36] <LLyaudet> ok
    [11:38] <mirek> ok, then...
    [11:39] <mirek> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Options/Writer#Table
    [11:40] <mirek> Repeat on each page
    [11:40] <mirek> this seems like a style setting rather than a global setting
    [11:41] <astron> it also sets the default for tables, but yes, it is a style settign
    [11:41] <mirek> and it's set when inserting a table
    [11:42] <LLyaudet> It is an option and it is also in Table menu right now
    [11:42] <mirek> so, given our decision for "Heading", I would say this is advanced as well
    [11:42] <mirek> agreed?
    [11:43] <LLyaudet> agree
    [11:43] <astron> wait... let me check
    [11:44] <astron> i dont really know about making this advanced. this seems like a genuinely useful setting
    [11:45] <astron> of course, you can also set it when creating a table, but i would bet that it saves a lot of people from that trouble each time they insert a table
    [11:45] <mirek> but it's set when creating a table
    [11:45] <astron> as i said, in the options, it's permanent
    [11:45] <mirek> Perhaps we should remember the last choice, then, as proposed with Heading as well?
    [11:45] <astron> right. that would make sense
    [11:46] <LLyaudet> yes
    [11:46] <mirek> ok
    [11:46] <mirek> "Do not split (not in HTML)"
    [11:46] <mirek> the same?
    [11:48] <astron> yep
    [11:48] <mirek> and the same with Border, I assume?
    [11:49] <LLyaudet> yes
    [11:49] <mirek> would be great to have table styles for these kinds of things...
    [11:49] <astron> right
    [11:50] <mirek> Number recognition
    [11:51] <mirek> is there any way to get the same functionality without the Options dialog?
    [11:53] <astron> well, libo could always ask, if you want to treat this number like a date/time/...
    [11:53] <astron> (e.g. see ms office's smarttags)
    [11:53] <LLyaudet> It doesn't seem so. There is number format in table menu but it only appplies to the cells
    [11:53] <LLyaudet> *selected cells
    [11:54] <mirek> that's too bad
    [11:55] <astron> hm... could quickly go back to the previous four options...
    [11:55] <mirek> sure
    [11:55] <astron> i think lots of people dojn't even know the "insert table" dialogue exists, because they are creating tables from the toolbar
    [11:56] <astron> personally, see it rather seldomly, because i always use the little arrow next to the icon
    [11:56] <mirek> true
    [11:56] <astron> so these people wouldnt really get the chance to set these options (or see that these options are set)
    [11:57] <astron> ^dojn't^don't
    [11:57] <astron> not sure if those same people care about repeating headers or not ... just wanted to bring it up
    [11:58] <mirek> I feel like Table styles would be the ideal solution
    [11:58] <mirek> especially given that not all tables are alike
    [11:59] <mirek> e.g. "Heading" is very table-specific
    [11:59] <LLyaudet> I agree
    [11:59] <astron> right...
    [12:00] <mirek> I feel like the discoverability of these properties is another matter to setting the defaults under options
    [12:01] <astron> ..?
    [12:01] <astron> what does that mean?
    [12:01] <mirek> I mean that finding where to set these properties (e.g. under Insert > Table) is one thing
    [12:01] <mirek> and setting the defaults in Options is another
    [12:02] <astron> right
    [12:02] <mirek> so the solution isn't to make these things more visible in Options, but to make the per-table properties more discoverable
    [12:04] <mirek> it'd be good to at least bring some table properties to the Properties panel
    [12:04] <mirek> (the sidebar panel)
    [12:04] <astron> ok right. please add that to the description in the wiki page too
    [12:04] <mirek> will do
    [12:07] <mirek> anyway, back to number recognition
    [12:07] <mirek> it seems that it's not a table property...
    [12:08] <mirek> so, as much as it pains me to say it, perhaps it should be generic?
    [12:08] <LLyaudet> In the current state, I think so
    [12:10] <mirek> astron, what do you think?
    [12:10] <astron> right, keep it generic
    [12:10] <mirek> ok
    [12:11] <mirek> Number format recognition
    [12:11] <mirek> not sure I understand what this does...
    [12:12] <mirek> important to note: Number format recognition and Alignment are both tied to Number recognition
    [12:12] <astron>  i can see that.
    [12:13] <astron> Help: If Number format recognition is not marked, only input in the format that has been set at the cell is accepted. Any other input resets the format to Text.
    [12:14] <astron> right... that is in the wiki already
    [12:15] <astron> i would think, this refers to locally different number formats etc.?
    [12:16] <astron> eg, your local date format actually is 12/23/2004, but libreoffice, with this option would also recognise 23/12/2004
    [12:16] <astron> or so??
    [12:17] <mirek> I understood it this way:
    [12:17] <mirek> if the option is not marked, when you mark a cell with e.g. the Date format, it only recognizes dates
    [12:17] <mirek> and any other numbers are treated as text
    [12:17] <astron> or that
    [12:18] <mirek> if it is marked, I guess it might try to make out what kind of number was input
    [12:18] <mirek> not sure how to tell, though...
    [12:18] <astron> ok.
    [12:19] <astron> could you create some category like "ask a developer"?
    [12:19] <mirek> actually, that guess might be wrong
    [12:19] <mirek> sure :)
    [12:20] <astron> maybe not a category, but jsut add some extra rtext
    [12:20] <astron> ^rtext^text
    [12:20] <mirek> I think a category's fine
    [12:21] <mirek> "Alignment" should be renamed
    [12:21] <mirek> perhaps to something like "Align numbers separately", or something like that...
    [12:22] <mirek> and I guess I'd mark it as Generic as well
    [12:23] <astron> right
    [12:23] <mirek> agreed?
    [12:23] <astron> actually, the last three items, i noticed were cell formats
    [12:23] <astron> so... that may be another case for the sidebar..?
    [12:24] <mirek> the difference is whether it makes sense to set these things per cell
    [12:24] <mirek> e.g. alignment seems like it should be set at least per table
    [12:25] <astron> per column, probably, but yes
    [12:25] <mirek> can number alignment be set per cell?
    [12:26] <mirek> also, what exactly do you propose? to have the settings be advanced, and remember the last cell setting?
    [12:30] <astron> so, my proposal is entirely theoretical right now... since the sidebar does not yet seem to have any table or cell properties
    [12:31] <astron> in any case: table and cell properties could be displayed at the same time in the sidebar
    [12:31] <astron> so, you could select multiple cells or even the entire table and select a fitting cellalignment mode
    [12:31] <astron> ^cellalignment^cell alignment
    [12:32] <astron> and yes, you could also store the setting from the last usage and make the option advanced too
    [12:33] <LLyaudet> I must go see you :)
    [12:34] <mirek> hm...
    [12:34] <mirek> so should I mark it as advanced and note that?
    [12:34] <mirek> or generic for now?
    [12:35] <astron> generic + a long note?
    [12:35] <mirek> ok
    [12:37] <mirek> moving on...
    [12:37] <mirek> Move cells
    [12:38] <mirek> i would mark that as advanced
    [12:38] <mirek> just given the nature of the feature
    [12:39] <astron> i guess...
    [12:40] <mirek> insert cells the same?
    [12:40] <astron> is it relevant for accessibility?
    [12:41] <astron> (i dont even know how to enable these functions, so it must be soem arcane accessibility key combination)
    [12:41] <mirek> it seems alt+arrow key moves the cells
    [12:41] <astron> ^soem^some
    [12:41] <mirek> not moves, but increases the size of
    [12:41] <astron> ahh...
    [12:41] <mirek> not sure if that's it, but I suppose it is
    [12:41] <astron> "move" is weird word anyway here... is it actually correct?
    [12:43] <mirek> it doesn't seem so...
    [12:43] <astron> this sounds as if, originally the function was called "move cell border" which then got shortened to "move cell"
    [12:43] <mirek> sounds like it, yes
    [12:43] <astron> ill file a bug about this...
    [12:43] <astron> should it be in the ux-advise component?
    [12:43] <mirek> on the other hand, it does move rows/columns...
    [12:44] <mirek> that depends whether you want more designer feedback
    [12:45] <astron> in how far does it move things? it increases/decreases the size of cells
    [12:46] <mirek> it moves rows/columns
    [12:46] <mirek> it doesn't increase the size of just the single cell, but also the rows or columns it's in
    [12:48] <astron> right ...but thats not really moving
    [12:48] <mirek> right
    [12:49] <astron> for moving, id expect rows/columns to swap palces
    [12:49] <astron> ^palces^places
    [12:49] <mirek> true
    [12:51] <mirek> anyway, advanced?
    [12:51] <astron> yes
    [12:52] <mirek> same with insertion?
    [12:52] <astron> yes
    [12:52] <mirek> (not sure how to insert with the keyboard, though)
    [12:52] <astron> hm
    [12:52] <astron> it would be nice if the help explained it
    [12:53] <mirek> yup
    [12:54] <astron> ok.
    [12:54] <mirek> Behavior of rows/columns
    [12:55] <astron> is that available in table settings?
    [12:55] <mirek> seems to be
    [12:55] <astron> you misunderstood me... i meant the insert table dialogue.
    [12:55] <astron> there, it is not available.
    [12:56] <mirek> no, it's not
    [12:56] <mirek> but it seems to be under "Table Properties" > "Columns" > "Adapt table width" + "Adjust columns proportionally"
    [12:56] <astron> so, i guess => generic
    [12:56] <mirek> (at least I think that's the same thing)
    [12:56] <mirek> how about having it in the sidebar?
    [12:56] <astron> right. might be
    [12:56] <astron> ok
    [12:57] <mirek> and advanced?
    [12:57] <astron> ok
    [12:58] <astron> should we stop here?
    [12:58] <mirek> ok, sure
    [12:58] <mirek> any other topics?
    [12:59] <astron> not really
    [12:59] <astron> ok, then.
    [12:59] <mirek> not sure I'll be able to make it to the chat next week
    [12:59] <astron> right.
    [12:59] <mirek> should I cancel it, then?
    [13:00] <astron> ill upload the log again (sorry for not doing it the whole of last week, but it will be immediate now)
    [13:00] <astron> mirek2: you could.
    [13:00] <astron> not sure i will be there either
    [13:00] <mirek> ok :)
    [13:00] <mirek> see you later, then
    [13:01] <astron> see you