Design/Meetings/2014-05-25

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    Attendees

    • astron
    • LLyaudet
    • mahfiaz
    • mirek


    Topics

    • Sifr (repository GitHub vs. freedesktop or both, high-ppi version, etc.)
    • Design team organization (positions : visual design lead, user testing lead, UI design lead, projects leads, IRC chat moderator)
    • bug 78662 (start menu entries, libo start center entries, help menu entries)

    Log

    [13:57] <mirek2> hi guys
[13:58] <astron> hi there
[14:00] <mirek2> I'm in the middle of finals, so I still won't be very involved in the next few weeks, but I will hopefully have time afterwards
[14:00] <LLyaudet> hi mirek
[14:00] <mirek2> I'd like to get the team organized a bit more
[14:01] <mirek2> would be good to have some official positions and some official decision makers
[14:01] <mirek2> (I think the democracy we have leads to bikeshedding and blurs the line between actual UX bugs and personal thoughts/ideas)
[14:02] <mirek2> I'll post about that to the list when I have time
[14:02] <astron> ok
[14:02] <mirek2> so, what's new?
[14:03] <mirek2> astron, any news from ESC calls? have you attended?
[14:03] <LLyaudet> sorry but what does bikeshedding means (not literraly) ?
[14:04] <astron> LLyaudet: discussing about details instead of working
[14:04] <astron> more or less
[14:04] <LLyaudet> thank you :)
[14:04] <astron> LLyaudet: http://bikeshed.com/
[14:05] <mirek2> :) didn't know about that website
[14:05] <mirek2> astron: any news?
[14:06] <astron> right,...
[14:06] <astron> ive attended a few, this week i completely forgot.
[14:06] <astron> so, feature freeze for 4.3 was monday
[14:07] <astron> (not esc-related but maybe good to know)
[14:07] <astron> then,...
[14:07] <astron> * weve discussed sifr a bit
[14:07] <mirek2> ok
[14:08] <astron> it would be great to have a high-ppi version of sifr etc.
[14:08] <astron> so, there is a need to get all of the icons in the same place.
[14:08] <mirek2> isn't that just a matter of exporting at a higher resolution?
[14:09] <astron> hence, my mail on the ml
[14:09] <mirek2> ok
[14:09] <mirek2> right
[14:09] <mirek2> it's high on my priority list
[14:09] <astron> no one has answered to that so far ... not sure why
[14:10] <mirek2> so, I still need to finish sorting the icons
[14:10] <mirek2> (unfortunately)
[14:11] <mirek2> hopefully, it won't take too long, as I think I'm most of the way there
[14:11] <astron> mirek2: is this for the tango icons or sifr?
[14:11] <mirek2> then the Sifr icon set can be rebased
[14:11] <mirek2> it's for tango icons, but the same sheets should be used for both
[14:12] <astron> ok, can you publish some kind of short status report/timeline on the ml?
[14:12] <mirek2> can I post it once I'm done with finals?
[14:13] <mirek2> I really can't guess at the timeline right now
[14:13] <astron> soem status?
[14:13] <mirek2> and I will need to coordinate with Ahmad and Reda for the Sifr icons
[14:14] <astron> btw, reda is not a kacst student, right?
[14:14] <mirek2> the status is whatever is on github
[14:14] <mirek2> astron: afaik, no
[14:14] <mirek2> he got in contact through Google+
[14:14] <astron> ok
[14:15] <mirek2> as to moving to freedesktop.org, I'm not sure of the advantages
[14:15] <mirek2> we'd still need a separate repo
[14:15] <astron> why?
[14:16] <mirek2> given that some of us use SparkleShare, which is very liberal with the number of commits it produces, I would think using the same repo would clutter up commit messages
[14:17] <mirek2> (correct me if I'm wrong)
[14:17] <mirek2> it's also nice to be able to handle access rights independently
[14:18] <mirek2> and previews can come in handy
[14:18] <astron> right
[14:19] <astron> but the other issue is licensing & aligning with libo releases
[14:19] <mirek2> explain, please :)
[14:19] <mirek2> isn't GitHub better for that as well, given that we're using CC-by-sa for graphics?
[14:20] <mirek2> (whereas LibO code is MPL licensed)
[14:20] <astron> licensing -- normally, people are on file in the ml & on the wiki. since sifr is neither really inside of libo nor outside of it, i am not sure of the situation
[14:21] <astron> aligning with releases -- someone would regularly have to copy the icos from github => fdo for every release
[14:22] <mirek2> well, the icons will probably only be exported when one intends to push them to fdo
[14:23] <mirek2> if we had a separate repo on fdo, would things be different?
[14:24] <astron> right.
[14:24] <mirek2> and if we used the same repo, would there be a way not to clutter up commit messages with SparkleShare pushes?
[14:24] <astron> i guess not.
[14:25] <mirek2> I think github is probably still the best option, then?
[14:26] <astron> ok, i think the bottom line is that need some sort of build process (e.g. just a bash script that exports everything and then tars it) for repeatability/
[14:26] <mirek2> unless we don't use SparkleShare, but that would make the experience a lot less comfortable for me
[14:26] <mirek2> sounds good
[14:26] <astron> and maybe we should try to make sifr a proper external dependency?
[14:27] <astron> (e.g. not directly in the source tree but rather tgz on dev-www.l.o)
[14:27] <mirek2> ok, sounds good
[14:27] <astron> not sure if that will sound as good to developers
[14:28] <mirek2> it's worth a try
[14:29] <astron> ok.
[14:29] <astron> are we sure that we have all the icons in github, btw
[14:29] <astron> ?
[14:30] <mirek2> all the Sifr icons
[14:30] <mirek2> ?
[14:30] <astron> yes
[14:30] <mirek2> no, at least I don't think so
[14:30] <mirek2> I'll ask Ahmad where they all are
[14:30] <astron> ok.
[14:30] <mirek2> (I think at one point they just sent packages through e-mail -- yikes)
[14:31] <astron> riiight.
[14:32] <mirek2> I'll get on the icons once I have free time
[14:32] <astron> actually, i cc'd my mail to the design list to ahmed etc.
[14:33] <mirek2> I'll talk to him
[14:33] <astron> ok, great. thanks
[14:33] <mirek2> anything else from the ESC?
[14:35] <astron> * you may have seen björns bug about start menu links to various libreoffice related websites
[14:36] <mirek2> no
[14:36] <astron> we discussed that a bit...
[14:36] <astron> (its also ccd on ux-adv)
[14:36] <mirek2> ok
[14:37] <astron> not really sure about this, because björn wants to get away from people being "consumers" of libreoffice to people joining qa etc.
[14:37] <mirek2> hold on -- do you mean the help menu entries?
[14:38] <astron> not sure if links to all pages from the known libo universe are the best way to do this
[14:38] <astron> well, there were several things discussed:
[14:38] <astron> + start menu entries (only really applicable on windows 7 or below)
[14:39] <astron> + libo start center entries
[14:39] <astron> + help menu entries (björn found those too subtle)
[14:41] <mirek2> just the "new features" and "recent fixes" entries, or are there more?
[14:42] <astron> if you mean #79195, thats not it
[14:42] <astron> it is https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=78662
[14:44] <mirek2> thanks for the link
[14:44] <mirek2> I basically agree with what you said
[14:48] <mirek2> undecided on the start screen page
[14:49] <mirek2> anything else?
[14:50] <astron> those should be the major things, but i am not sure.
[14:50] <astron> (or at least the most discussed things)
[14:51] <astron> oh, also i did not do anything regarding robinsons report from spinachcon (which is not so great of me)
[14:51] <mirek2> ok
[14:54] <mirek2> I need to get in contact with Nickkolas, get some testing going
[14:54] <astron> nickkolas?
[14:54] <mirek2> the person from FOSDEM
[14:54] <astron> ok
[14:54] <mirek2> Nicolas Goyer, to be precise
[14:55] <mirek2> in the meantime, if we don't have any pressing topics (?), I'd like to talk about how to get the design team going again
[14:56] <mirek2> as I mentioned, I'd really like to have some official team positions
[14:57] <mirek2> right now, I'm thinking it'd be good to have:
[14:57] <mirek2> * a visual design lead
[14:57] <mirek2> * user testing lead
[14:58] <mirek2> * UI design lead
[14:58] <astron> not sure this is going to work
[14:59] <mirek2> because of lack of people?
[14:59] <mirek2> (who generally have a lack of time)
[14:59] <mirek2> or some other concern?
[15:00] <astron> yes, and those people would have to act like what they are supposed to be
[15:00] <mirek2> what do you mean?
[15:01] <astron> experience & the ability to defend good decisions...
[15:03] <mirek2> I'm thinking these positions would be voted on, say, annually (does that sound good?), so bad decision makers should be weeded out
[15:04] <LLyaudet> I have one fear
[15:04] <mirek2> in any case, what alternative is there?
[15:04] <mirek2> yes?
[15:04] <astron> phew... who is voting?
[15:04] <LLyaudet> who will have the time to really be a lead ?
[15:05] <mirek2> I'd suggest any member of the LibreOffice community (again, how does that sound?)
[15:05] <LLyaudet> maybe we'll end up with only one posssibility
[15:05] <mirek2> that's a valid concern
[15:05] <LLyaudet> and bad decision makers will not be weeded out
[15:05] <mirek2> I think it'd be good to have nobody as a possible choice
[15:06] <mirek2> in which case the community would democratically fill the role
[15:06] <mirek2> (as it has been doing up till now)
[15:07] <mirek2> also, people could only nominate themselves for the position, so it might turn out that there's nobody who wants to fill the role
[15:07] <mirek2> LLyaudet: would having "nobody" as a possible choice alleviate your concerns?
[15:08] <mirek2> btw, this would all be just within the scope of the design team
[15:08] <LLyaudet> partly I'm mainly embarrassed with the lack of time I (at least) can spend on LO
[15:08] <mirek2> me too :)
[15:09] <LLyaudet> however if positions could motivate some people who have more time it may be a good opportunity
[15:09] <mirek2> but I'm thinking there's a lot of time being wasted because jobs are not designated properly
[15:09] <mirek2> I agree
[15:10] <astron> i am not sure if it is really because of positions, really
[15:10] <mirek2> time being wasted? no, it's not just because of positions, but positions are a good first step toward a remedy, no?
[15:11] <LLyaudet> I agree Mirek
[15:11] <mirek2> btw, any other suggestions are appreciated
[15:12] <mirek2> it would also be good to have an IRC chat moderator
[15:12] <LLyaudet> It's easier with a position to say to the ML "We'll try to organize the work for the next months in this direction..."
[15:13] <astron> wouldnt it be better to just let individual people take care of projects?
[15:13] <mirek2> what projects?
[15:13] <LLyaudet> we can vote on a per project basis in that case
[15:14] <mirek2> there can still be project leads, separate from the main leads
[15:14] <astron> project ~ whiteboard
[15:14] <mirek2> it's a good idea to have project leads
[15:14] <mirek2> however, I think we need the leads I mentioned as well
[15:16] <mirek2> if you look at mailing list and bug discussions, it'd be good to have a go-to person for each issue
[15:16] <astron> hm...
[15:17] <mirek2> and, in general, it's good to have a designated decision maker for a final say
[15:17] <LLyaudet> not necessarily
[15:17] <LLyaudet> the final say may be a vote
[15:18] <mirek2> it may be
[15:18] <LLyaudet> but aleast someone must organize and structure the debate if any
[15:18] <LLyaudet> *at least
[15:18] <mirek2> the developers are still free not to listen to the designer
[15:19] <mirek2> LLyaudet: definitely
[15:20] <mirek2> the lead should be responsible for allowing a discussion to take place before a big decision, for having the final say if it seems impossible to reach a consensus, and for backing up that final say
[15:21] <LLyaudet> I agree
[15:21] <mirek2> astron: your thoughts?
[15:22] <astron> none
[15:22] <mirek2> ok
[15:22] <mirek2> I'll post to the ML about this later, then, and we'll see how it goes :)
[15:23] <mirek2> LLyaudet, mahfiaz_ : since you both attend the IRC chat relatively frequently, would either of you like to be the IRC chat moderator?
[15:23] <astron> im really just not sure about all the continued voting about who will be voting.
[15:24] <mirek2> it would be an annual vote, and the leads won't be voting
[15:25] <LLyaudet> I would be glad to help by being the IRC chat moderator however I'm not fast with english so I don't know if I'm the best candidate
[15:26] <mirek2> well, I imagine the job to involve:
[15:26] <LLyaudet> and so far I don't really what I would have to do
[15:26] <LLyaudet> *really see
[15:26] <mirek2> * sending an e-mail to the design ML announcing the chat and asking for topics that should be discussed
[15:27] <mirek2> (you can use some of mine as a template, though do note that they've been written hastily and sometimes don't ask for topics)
[15:28] <mirek2> I'm thinking it'd be good, from now on, to lay out what we want to get done and discussed in the chat before the chat starts
[15:28] <mirek2> so, if we agree to do that, the job would involve:
[15:30] <LLyaudet> I agree
[15:30] <mirek2> * gathering a list of things that the IRC chat should accomplish
[15:31] <mirek2> * trying to keep the discussion focused on those topics
[15:31] <mirek2> * and, finally, uploading the log to the wiki
[15:31] <mirek2> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings
[15:31] <LLyaudet> ok
[15:31] <mirek2> would you be willing to do that?
[15:32] <LLyaudet> yes
[15:32] <mirek2> great :)
[15:33] <LLyaudet> I'll send a mail one week before each meeting asking for topics to be discussed to the next chat
[15:33] <mirek2> yup, sounds good
[15:34] <mirek2> also, please upload today's log (if you have all of it)
[15:34] <LLyaudet> yes I'll do it :)
[15:34] <mirek2> ok, thanks
[15:35] <mirek2> any other thoughts on the design team structure, way of working, positions needed, etc. ?
[15:36] <astron> hm, different topic: what is sophies Preparing 4.3.0 coordination mail about?
[15:36] <LLyaudet> Should we formalize all this somewhere ?
[15:37] <mirek2> the log is fine for now, I think
[15:37] <mirek2> I hope to make a post to the mailing list soon
[15:37] <mirek2> (probably not today, though)
[15:38] <mirek2> about the team positions
[15:38] <mirek2> astron: not sure; is the wiki page set up?
[15:38] <astron> no idea
[15:39] <astron> but the information in her mail is strangely unspecific
[15:39] <mirek2> it is
[15:39] <mirek2> I was hoping she'd post the link
[15:40] <mirek2> your best bet is to just contact Sophie
[15:41] <astron> hm. right
[15:41] == mirek2_ [56311b91@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.49.27.145] has joined #libreoffice-design
[15:42] <mirek2_> sorry guys, Firefox crashed for me
[15:43] <mirek2_> if there are no other topics you'd like to discuss and no ideas as to how the team should work, let's end the chat
[15:44] <astron> ok
[15:44] <astron> bye then
[15:44] <LLyaudet> ok see you all
[15:44] <mirek2_> see you
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