Design/Meetings/2014-07-27

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Attendees

  • abhra
  • LLyaudet
  • mahfiaz
  • mirek


Topics

  • Design workflow
  • bugzilla, redmine, github

Log

[14:25] == LLyaudet [58ab762a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.171.118.42] has joined #libreoffice-design
[14:25] <LLyaudet> Hi everyone
[14:25] <LLyaudet> Sorry for being late
[14:26] <mirek2> hi laurent
[14:26] <LLyaudet> have you started already ?
[14:27] <LLyaudet> * did you start
[14:27] <mirek2> not yet
[14:27] <mirek2> I was hoping we'd have more people attending, but alas
[14:28] <LLyaudet> ok let's start anyway
[14:28] <mirek2> any topics you'd like to cover today?
[14:28] <LLyaudet> any topic you would like to discuss?
[14:29] <LLyaudet> we can talk about the decision process
[14:29] <mirek2> I was hoping to talk a bit about the color picker, but now I'm thinking I'll leave that up to the mailing list
[14:30] <mirek2> ok, we can talk about that
[14:31] <mirek2> so, here's my proposal, for reference: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Our-decision-making-workflow-td4114935.html
[14:31] <LLyaudet> I'm rereading first your mails to ml
[14:31] <LLyaudet> thx was already on it
[14:36] <LLyaudet> Do you maintain that you want to use bugzilla?
[14:37] <mirek2> I hate Bugzilla, but I'm relatively certain TDF won't be moving to another bug tracker anytime soon
[14:37] <LLyaudet> people talked about using redmine in complement or instead
[14:37] <mirek2> right -- I'm in the middle of responding to that
[14:40] <mirek2> finished my response, bcc'd you so that you get it right away
[14:41] <mirek2> basically, I don't want the team to stretch among too many services
[14:41] <LLyaudet> I agree with that
[14:44] <LLyaudet> If we agree to centralize arguments on bugzilla, I would add in point 1) of your mail that the bug report must be communicated on the mailing list
[14:45] <LLyaudet> Then we need to be sure that all following arguments from the ml or the IRC Chat are added as comment on the bug report
[14:46] <mirek2> we already have a separate mailing list for bugs that require UX discussion -- ux-advise
[14:47] <LLyaudet> yes but it still need
[14:47] <LLyaudet>  to be centralized on bugzilla
[14:47] <mirek2> and bugs that are tagged with ux-advise get sent to the mailing list immediately
[14:47] <mirek2> what do you mean by that?
[14:48] <LLyaudet> In order to reach a good decision, we need to have all the arguments in one place
[14:48] <LLyaudet> (i.e. bugzilla)
[14:49] <LLyaudet> the discussion may go on on the ml but after some synthesis at least must go to bugzilla
[14:52] <mirek2> well, ux-advise discussions usually take place in the Bugzilla comments
[14:52] <mirek2> unless they're discussed on the design ml, in which case there should be a link
[14:53] <mirek2> it's a pretty terrible workflow, though
[14:53] <mirek2> maybe we should give redmine a try just to see how it changes our workflow
[14:54] <LLyaudet> I prefer that we try to have a better worflow with bugzilla first
[14:55] <LLyaudet> *workflow
[14:56] <LLyaudet> If we try redmine, we must be sure that everything is in redmine AND bugzilla during our tests ; it will be more work
[14:56] <mirek2> the thing is, bugzilla is an utter pain to work with
[14:57] <mirek2> but we are tied to bugzilla, because developers use it and users report bugs there
[14:58] <LLyaudet> why is it an utter pain ? if we only need to comments the bug ? the bug is communicated on the ml ; people interested to it subscribe to the bug report and taht's it
[14:58] <LLyaudet> *that
[14:58] <mirek2> the bugzilla UX is an utter mess
[15:00] <mirek2> search is terrible, filtering unnecessarily complex, the search page is hard to look through, the bug page is could also have a better layout, etc.
[15:01] <LLyaudet> I agree that it's not perfect but for what I've done with it it does the job
[15:01] <LLyaudet> maybe we can improve bugzilla ?
[15:02] <mirek2> that'd be great, but I doubt we'll find the developers for that
[15:02] <LLyaudet> latest release of bugzilla is 3 days old
[15:03] <LLyaudet> maybe we can try it and see if it is greatly better
[15:04] <mirek2> from a look at the changelog, it doesn't seem so
[15:07] <mirek2> what we need for now is something that would just list all our UX bugs in a readable manner
[15:08] <mirek2> which I guess could be a simple link in the wiki to a Bugzilla search with certain filters applied
[15:09] <LLyaudet> searching ux-advise should be the good way to do it
[15:09] <mirek2> you mean the mailing list?
[15:10] <LLyaudet> no, ux-advise is listed in bugzilla
[15:10] <mirek2> if you mean the component, then yes, and UI as well
[15:11] <LLyaudet> it seems all relevant bug either have ux-advise in component or ux-advise ml is added as CC
[15:12] <LLyaudet> hence ux-advise search should be sufficient
[15:13] <mirek2> all UI bugs are UX bugs, hence they should be relevant as well
[15:13] <mirek2> btw, here's the Bugzilla link I'd suggest: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/buglist.cgi?list_id=449796&query_format=advanced&bug_status=UNCONFIRMED&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&bug_status=VERIFIED&bug_status=NEEDINFO&bug_status=PLEASETEST&component=UI&component=ux-advise&product=LibreOffice
[15:13] <LLyaudet> don't they have ux-advise as CC
[15:13] <LLyaudet> * ?
[15:13] <mirek2> (I'm thinking list_id isn't necessary; who knows)
[15:14] <mirek2> LLyaudet: both UI and ux-advise are components, so they're mutually exclusive
[15:14] <LLyaudet> I know but I said CC
[15:14] <mirek2> there is a difference, though, at least AFAIK
[15:15] <mirek2> for example, take https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=65754
[15:15] <mirek2> there's no discussion needed, just an icon needed
[15:15] <LLyaudet> ux-advise is a substring of the ux-advise ml
[15:15] <mirek2> I think ux-advise is there when a decision needs to be made
[15:17] <mirek2> LLyaudet: I think the mailing list is now used only for bugs with the ux-advise component
[15:17] <LLyaudet> If some bug with UI component has "libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org" in CC, then it appears in "ux-advise" search
[15:20] <mirek2> is that still in practice, though?
[15:20] <mirek2> I thought that the component was added to avoid this
[15:21] <LLyaudet> your bugzilla search misses bugs like this one :https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=77826
[15:21] <LLyaudet> It is still in practice
[15:22] <mirek2> hmph, that doesn't seem very consistent
[15:23] <LLyaudet> in fact I don't see why the ux-advise ml exists, I would prefer that evrything goes to the design ml
[15:25] <mirek2> I think the original idea was to have design for discussions within the team and ux-advise for bringing attention to UX bugs
[15:25] <mirek2> we're not getting very far, so let's identify the current workflow problems and go through them to see if we can fix them
[15:26] <LLyaudet> having two mailing lists is one of them IMHO
[15:26] <mirek2> well, if each one has a clear purpose, there is no problem
[15:27] <mirek2> but I'm not sure whether ux-advise makes much sense anymore
[15:27] == abhra [~dr@117.232.196.228] has joined #libreoffice-design
[15:27] <mirek2> hi
[15:27] <LLyaudet> I don't think ux-advise is listed on the wiki, I'll add it
[15:28] <LLyaudet> hi abhra
[15:28] <mirek2> I'll start listing what I think are our problems:
[15:28] <mirek2> * It's hard to get a list of open UX bugs
[15:28] <abhra> hi LLyaudet
[15:29] <mirek2> * It's hard to track UX design progress on smaller UX bugs (i.e. those without whiteboards)
[15:30] <mirek2> * It's hard to know whether a decision has been reached on smaller UX bugs within the design team or whether people are just giving their opinions
[15:31] <mirek2> (which is perfectly fine -- the design team shouldn't discuss everything; it's just useful to know the decision process)
[15:32] <mirek2> * It's hard to guess at how many users are affected by a bug (important for prioritization)
[15:32] <mirek2> * There's no clear overview of the design team's current activities
[15:33] <mirek2> (makes getting involved much harder than it needs to be)
[15:33] <mirek2> anything you'd add?
[15:35] <mirek2> * There's no clear place to host designs.
[15:35] <mirek2> * There's no clear place to discuss individual designs.
[15:35] <LLyaudet> I don't see anything to add but I agree with what you said. In particular with yours first and 5th point that we have no global view of current open bugs or activities
[15:36] <LLyaudet> Well for the 6th and 7th points, there is the wiki and the ml
[15:37] <mirek2> the wiki isn't that great for hosting designs
[15:37] <mirek2> as Reda said last time, GitHub is probably better for that
[15:37] <LLyaudet> yes probably
[15:38] <mirek2> and discussion also happens on Bugzilla and the IRC
[15:39] <mirek2> so let's go through the problems one by one
[15:39] <mirek2> "tracking design progress on UX bugs"
[15:40] <mirek2> can redmine help us there?
[15:40] <LLyaudet> I don't know
[15:41] <LLyaudet> is th search any simpler than in bugzilla?
[15:41] <LLyaudet> *the
[15:41] <mirek2> it's faster and it only searches the project you're in
[15:42] <LLyaudet> faster ? I don't think performance is an issue in bugzilla
[15:43] <mirek2> then you, sir, have faster internet than I do
[15:43] <LLyaudet> If we agree to have ux-advise in CC of all bugs related, the search in bugzilla is straightforward
[15:44] <LLyaudet> well I don't think the network load between bugzilla and redmine will be susbtantially different
[15:45] <mirek2> redmine would only host a subset of bugzilla links, so it should be faster that way
[15:45] <mirek2> also, from my experience, bugzilla's search is just slow
[15:45] <LLyaudet> ???
[15:46] <mirek2> anyway, we got completely sidetracked
[15:46] <mirek2> let's focus on tracking progress for now
[15:46] <LLyaudet> what do you mean by "a subset of bugzilla links" ? there is no difference if the number of opened bugs is the same
[15:48] <mirek2> there are fewer things for redmine to search through and fewer people searching
[15:50] <LLyaudet> ok but the servers must be more powerfull and if your performance issue is related to the network tehre will be no difference
[15:51] <mirek2> ok
[15:51] <mirek2> redmine gives us a % done field that might be of use
[15:51] <mirek2> we could map it to different design stages
[15:52] <LLyaudet> like 50% = design decision made ?
[15:53] <mirek2> I'm thinking ones corresponding to our whiteboard statuses
[15:53] <LLyaudet> further 50% are for the dev ?
[15:54] <LLyaudet> 0% analysis, 25% call for proposals, 50% shaping tentative design and the rest for the dev ?
[15:54] <mirek2> e.g. 0% no progress, 20% analyzing problem, 40% proposing solutions, 60% shaping tentative design, 80% ready for implementtion, 100% implemented
[15:55] <LLyaudet> ok
[15:55] <mirek2> wait, that was not thought out well
[15:57] <mirek2> 20% problem analysis done, 40% gathering proposals done, 60% tentative design done and ready for implementation, 80% experimental implementation needing testing, 100% implemented and tested
[15:57] <LLyaudet> ok
[15:59] <mirek2> I'm not too familiar with Bugzilla -- is there an easy way we could accomplish something similar with it?
[16:01] <LLyaudet> I don't know. Having distinct status cannot be an option since we can not modify them only for design bugs
[16:02] <mirek2> yes, exactly
[16:03] <mirek2> ok, so Redmine seems like a good possible solution here
[16:03] <mirek2> (unless there's another tool that could help us sort out Bugzilla bugs)
[16:03] <mirek2> * It's hard to get a list of open UX bugs
[16:03] <mirek2> Could be solved by a link to a search query, as mentioned above
[16:04] <LLyaudet> I agree
[16:04] <mirek2> Redmine could help, but there would need to be a maintainer to keep it up-to-date
[16:05] <mirek2> or we could just say that any designer interested in a UX bug needs to add it to Redmine
[16:05] <LLyaudet> ok but then we need a comment in bugzilla with a link to redmine
[16:06] <mirek2> yup, that would be useful
[16:06] <mirek2> "It's hard to know whether a decision has been reached on smaller UX bugs within the design team or whether people are just giving their opinions" -- solved by the Redmine progress indicator
[16:07] <mirek2> (based on whether it's collecting solutions or whether the tentative design is ready)
[16:07] <LLyaudet> ok
[16:07] <abhra> ok
[16:07] <mirek2> "It's hard to guess at how many users are affected by a bug"
[16:08] <mirek2> not sure how to deal with that
[16:09] <LLyaudet> it's surprising bugzilla has no way of telling "this bug affects me" like PHP bug tracker system does
[16:09] <mirek2> yup, that's what I was thinking as well
[16:09] <abhra> even that will not give an accurate figure
[16:09] <abhra> very few people actually take the initiative to report the bug
[16:10] <mirek2> no, but it at least allows an educated guess
[16:10] <abhra> could an automatic bug reporter be added in libreoffice?
[16:10] <mirek2> it's not the best way to gauge the importance of a bug, but it's at least some way
[16:11] <abhra> something under About section like "report a bug"
[16:11] <LLyaudet> it would be nice
[16:11] <mirek2> abhra: we already have a "Send feedback" link under "Help"
[16:12] <abhra> which will open the default browser to the bugzilla page with some important information automatically filled up (eg, OS, lebreoffice version, module affected)
[16:12] <mirek2> that links to https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/feedback/?LOversion=4.3.0.1&LOlocale=en-US&LOmodule=TextDocument
[16:14] <mirek2> You'll have to suggest that to the people working on the bug submission assistant.
[16:15] <abhra> very well
[16:15] <mirek2> The version, locale, and module seem to be transmitted, but don't seem to be filled in by default... odd
[16:17] <mirek2> try reporting a bug for that
[16:18] <mirek2> anyway, back to users affected
[16:19] <mirek2> it seems that redmine doesn't offer anything like that either
[16:21] <mirek2> and I can't really think of anything else we could use
[16:22] <mirek2> except it'd be useful if we could collect button usage statistics, like OOo used to
[16:23] <mirek2> https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Tracking_results
[16:23] <mirek2> and that might provide some insight into how well things are designed
[16:25] == abhra [~dr@117.232.196.228] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
[16:25] <mirek2> "There's no clear overview of the design team's current activities"
[16:25] <mirek2> I guess this could be solved using Redmine
[16:26] <mirek2> If we agree to have ALL currently worked-on issues there.
[16:26] <mirek2> any alternative suggestions?
[16:27] <LLyaudet> no. Bugzilla list of open bugs can help but it will not yield the percent of completion for each task
[16:27] <mirek2> ok
[16:28] <mirek2> "There's no clear place to host designs."
[16:28] <mirek2> we could use GitHub for this, as suggested by Reda
[16:28] <LLyaudet> yes what were the responses on the ml to this ?
[16:29] <LLyaudet> there was no response to this suggestion on the ml
[16:30] <mirek2> it seems so
[16:30] <mirek2> as long as there were no objections, we can try it for now
[16:31] <LLyaudet> let's try it and link github on the wiki
[16:31] <mirek2> yup, sounds good
[16:31] <mirek2> I think I'll dig through the wiki a bit, retool it to our new way of working
[16:31] <mirek2> if that's okay with you
[16:31] <LLyaudet> ok please do
[16:32] <mirek2> what about the redmine forum that KJ introduced?
[16:33] <LLyaudet> I'm not particularly in favor of it
[16:33] <mirek2> should we try it instead of the mailing list? should we use it for certain things?
[16:33] <LLyaudet> I think a forum will be less good than the ml
[16:33] <mirek2> well, both have their advantages and disadvantages
[16:33] <LLyaudet> Personnaly I don't want to dig in a forum
[16:34] <mirek2> well, you can "watch" the forum and get updates sent to your e-mail address
[16:35] <LLyaudet> unless the forum is "coupled with the ml"
[16:35] <mirek2> you can also read the feed: https://redmine.documentfoundation.org/projects/design/boards.atom?key=d495d1d8f48d347b079913d649f213ce94903193
[16:35] <LLyaudet> yes but you should also be able to  simply reply to a mail and it goes atumatically ine the forum
[16:35] <mirek2> and it allows file uploads, ideal for quick mockups
[16:35] <LLyaudet> *automatically
[16:36] <mirek2> that's one of the disadvantages
[16:36] <mirek2> however, the more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to suggest that we move from the list to the forum
[16:36] <LLyaudet> I think it will be a mess
[16:37] <mirek2> I agree we shouldn't use both for the same purpose
[16:37] <mirek2> that would be a mess
[16:37] <LLyaudet> as you said at the beginning of the meeting about redmine : "basically, I don't want the team to stretch among too many services"
[16:38] <mirek2> right -- that's why I'm thinking we should use the Redmine forums instead of the mailing list
[16:38] <mirek2> not in addition to
[16:38] <mirek2> would that be a mess?
[16:38] <LLyaudet> ok but I prefer the ml
[16:38] <LLyaudet> we need more persons involved to reach a decision on this point
[16:39] <mirek2> well, could we try it for, say, a month and decide based on that experience?
[16:40] <mirek2> (you can't make a fully informed decision unless you try it)
[16:40] <mirek2> by "try it", I mean not use the design list at all and use only the forum, directing everyone who writes to the list to the forum
[16:40] <LLyaudet> ok but then post to the ml with all instructions in order to watch the forum and recieve mails for any change to the forum
[16:41] <mirek2> ok, sounds good
[16:41] <mirek2> I think we've covered everything
[16:41] <LLyaudet> ok if you agree we can finish the meeting for today
[16:41] <mirek2> ok
[16:41] <mirek2> I'll go through the wiki and write to the ml about the suggested changes
[16:42] <LLyaudet> I'll post the log on the wiki
[16:42] <mirek2> great, thanks
[16:42] <mirek2> see you next month
[16:42] <LLyaudet> see you :)