Design/Meetings/2014-07-27
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Attendees
- abhra
- LLyaudet
- mahfiaz
- mirek
Topics
- Design workflow
- bugzilla, redmine, github
Log
[14:25] == LLyaudet [58ab762a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.171.118.42] has joined #libreoffice-design [14:25] <LLyaudet> Hi everyone [14:25] <LLyaudet> Sorry for being late [14:26] <mirek2> hi laurent [14:26] <LLyaudet> have you started already ? [14:27] <LLyaudet> * did you start [14:27] <mirek2> not yet [14:27] <mirek2> I was hoping we'd have more people attending, but alas [14:28] <LLyaudet> ok let's start anyway [14:28] <mirek2> any topics you'd like to cover today? [14:28] <LLyaudet> any topic you would like to discuss? [14:29] <LLyaudet> we can talk about the decision process [14:29] <mirek2> I was hoping to talk a bit about the color picker, but now I'm thinking I'll leave that up to the mailing list [14:30] <mirek2> ok, we can talk about that [14:31] <mirek2> so, here's my proposal, for reference: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Our-decision-making-workflow-td4114935.html [14:31] <LLyaudet> I'm rereading first your mails to ml [14:31] <LLyaudet> thx was already on it [14:36] <LLyaudet> Do you maintain that you want to use bugzilla? [14:37] <mirek2> I hate Bugzilla, but I'm relatively certain TDF won't be moving to another bug tracker anytime soon [14:37] <LLyaudet> people talked about using redmine in complement or instead [14:37] <mirek2> right -- I'm in the middle of responding to that [14:40] <mirek2> finished my response, bcc'd you so that you get it right away [14:41] <mirek2> basically, I don't want the team to stretch among too many services [14:41] <LLyaudet> I agree with that [14:44] <LLyaudet> If we agree to centralize arguments on bugzilla, I would add in point 1) of your mail that the bug report must be communicated on the mailing list [14:45] <LLyaudet> Then we need to be sure that all following arguments from the ml or the IRC Chat are added as comment on the bug report [14:46] <mirek2> we already have a separate mailing list for bugs that require UX discussion -- ux-advise [14:47] <LLyaudet> yes but it still need [14:47] <LLyaudet> to be centralized on bugzilla [14:47] <mirek2> and bugs that are tagged with ux-advise get sent to the mailing list immediately [14:47] <mirek2> what do you mean by that? [14:48] <LLyaudet> In order to reach a good decision, we need to have all the arguments in one place [14:48] <LLyaudet> (i.e. bugzilla) [14:49] <LLyaudet> the discussion may go on on the ml but after some synthesis at least must go to bugzilla [14:52] <mirek2> well, ux-advise discussions usually take place in the Bugzilla comments [14:52] <mirek2> unless they're discussed on the design ml, in which case there should be a link [14:53] <mirek2> it's a pretty terrible workflow, though [14:53] <mirek2> maybe we should give redmine a try just to see how it changes our workflow [14:54] <LLyaudet> I prefer that we try to have a better worflow with bugzilla first [14:55] <LLyaudet> *workflow [14:56] <LLyaudet> If we try redmine, we must be sure that everything is in redmine AND bugzilla during our tests ; it will be more work [14:56] <mirek2> the thing is, bugzilla is an utter pain to work with [14:57] <mirek2> but we are tied to bugzilla, because developers use it and users report bugs there [14:58] <LLyaudet> why is it an utter pain ? if we only need to comments the bug ? the bug is communicated on the ml ; people interested to it subscribe to the bug report and taht's it [14:58] <LLyaudet> *that [14:58] <mirek2> the bugzilla UX is an utter mess [15:00] <mirek2> search is terrible, filtering unnecessarily complex, the search page is hard to look through, the bug page is could also have a better layout, etc. [15:01] <LLyaudet> I agree that it's not perfect but for what I've done with it it does the job [15:01] <LLyaudet> maybe we can improve bugzilla ? [15:02] <mirek2> that'd be great, but I doubt we'll find the developers for that [15:02] <LLyaudet> latest release of bugzilla is 3 days old [15:03] <LLyaudet> maybe we can try it and see if it is greatly better [15:04] <mirek2> from a look at the changelog, it doesn't seem so [15:07] <mirek2> what we need for now is something that would just list all our UX bugs in a readable manner [15:08] <mirek2> which I guess could be a simple link in the wiki to a Bugzilla search with certain filters applied [15:09] <LLyaudet> searching ux-advise should be the good way to do it [15:09] <mirek2> you mean the mailing list? [15:10] <LLyaudet> no, ux-advise is listed in bugzilla [15:10] <mirek2> if you mean the component, then yes, and UI as well [15:11] <LLyaudet> it seems all relevant bug either have ux-advise in component or ux-advise ml is added as CC [15:12] <LLyaudet> hence ux-advise search should be sufficient [15:13] <mirek2> all UI bugs are UX bugs, hence they should be relevant as well [15:13] <mirek2> btw, here's the Bugzilla link I'd suggest: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/buglist.cgi?list_id=449796&query_format=advanced&bug_status=UNCONFIRMED&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&bug_status=VERIFIED&bug_status=NEEDINFO&bug_status=PLEASETEST&component=UI&component=ux-advise&product=LibreOffice [15:13] <LLyaudet> don't they have ux-advise as CC [15:13] <LLyaudet> * ? [15:13] <mirek2> (I'm thinking list_id isn't necessary; who knows) [15:14] <mirek2> LLyaudet: both UI and ux-advise are components, so they're mutually exclusive [15:14] <LLyaudet> I know but I said CC [15:14] <mirek2> there is a difference, though, at least AFAIK [15:15] <mirek2> for example, take https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=65754 [15:15] <mirek2> there's no discussion needed, just an icon needed [15:15] <LLyaudet> ux-advise is a substring of the ux-advise ml [15:15] <mirek2> I think ux-advise is there when a decision needs to be made [15:17] <mirek2> LLyaudet: I think the mailing list is now used only for bugs with the ux-advise component [15:17] <LLyaudet> If some bug with UI component has "libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org" in CC, then it appears in "ux-advise" search [15:20] <mirek2> is that still in practice, though? [15:20] <mirek2> I thought that the component was added to avoid this [15:21] <LLyaudet> your bugzilla search misses bugs like this one :https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=77826 [15:21] <LLyaudet> It is still in practice [15:22] <mirek2> hmph, that doesn't seem very consistent [15:23] <LLyaudet> in fact I don't see why the ux-advise ml exists, I would prefer that evrything goes to the design ml [15:25] <mirek2> I think the original idea was to have design for discussions within the team and ux-advise for bringing attention to UX bugs [15:25] <mirek2> we're not getting very far, so let's identify the current workflow problems and go through them to see if we can fix them [15:26] <LLyaudet> having two mailing lists is one of them IMHO [15:26] <mirek2> well, if each one has a clear purpose, there is no problem [15:27] <mirek2> but I'm not sure whether ux-advise makes much sense anymore [15:27] == abhra [~dr@117.232.196.228] has joined #libreoffice-design [15:27] <mirek2> hi [15:27] <LLyaudet> I don't think ux-advise is listed on the wiki, I'll add it [15:28] <LLyaudet> hi abhra [15:28] <mirek2> I'll start listing what I think are our problems: [15:28] <mirek2> * It's hard to get a list of open UX bugs [15:28] <abhra> hi LLyaudet [15:29] <mirek2> * It's hard to track UX design progress on smaller UX bugs (i.e. those without whiteboards) [15:30] <mirek2> * It's hard to know whether a decision has been reached on smaller UX bugs within the design team or whether people are just giving their opinions [15:31] <mirek2> (which is perfectly fine -- the design team shouldn't discuss everything; it's just useful to know the decision process) [15:32] <mirek2> * It's hard to guess at how many users are affected by a bug (important for prioritization) [15:32] <mirek2> * There's no clear overview of the design team's current activities [15:33] <mirek2> (makes getting involved much harder than it needs to be) [15:33] <mirek2> anything you'd add? [15:35] <mirek2> * There's no clear place to host designs. [15:35] <mirek2> * There's no clear place to discuss individual designs. [15:35] <LLyaudet> I don't see anything to add but I agree with what you said. In particular with yours first and 5th point that we have no global view of current open bugs or activities [15:36] <LLyaudet> Well for the 6th and 7th points, there is the wiki and the ml [15:37] <mirek2> the wiki isn't that great for hosting designs [15:37] <mirek2> as Reda said last time, GitHub is probably better for that [15:37] <LLyaudet> yes probably [15:38] <mirek2> and discussion also happens on Bugzilla and the IRC [15:39] <mirek2> so let's go through the problems one by one [15:39] <mirek2> "tracking design progress on UX bugs" [15:40] <mirek2> can redmine help us there? [15:40] <LLyaudet> I don't know [15:41] <LLyaudet> is th search any simpler than in bugzilla? [15:41] <LLyaudet> *the [15:41] <mirek2> it's faster and it only searches the project you're in [15:42] <LLyaudet> faster ? I don't think performance is an issue in bugzilla [15:43] <mirek2> then you, sir, have faster internet than I do [15:43] <LLyaudet> If we agree to have ux-advise in CC of all bugs related, the search in bugzilla is straightforward [15:44] <LLyaudet> well I don't think the network load between bugzilla and redmine will be susbtantially different [15:45] <mirek2> redmine would only host a subset of bugzilla links, so it should be faster that way [15:45] <mirek2> also, from my experience, bugzilla's search is just slow [15:45] <LLyaudet> ??? [15:46] <mirek2> anyway, we got completely sidetracked [15:46] <mirek2> let's focus on tracking progress for now [15:46] <LLyaudet> what do you mean by "a subset of bugzilla links" ? there is no difference if the number of opened bugs is the same [15:48] <mirek2> there are fewer things for redmine to search through and fewer people searching [15:50] <LLyaudet> ok but the servers must be more powerfull and if your performance issue is related to the network tehre will be no difference [15:51] <mirek2> ok [15:51] <mirek2> redmine gives us a % done field that might be of use [15:51] <mirek2> we could map it to different design stages [15:52] <LLyaudet> like 50% = design decision made ? [15:53] <mirek2> I'm thinking ones corresponding to our whiteboard statuses [15:53] <LLyaudet> further 50% are for the dev ? [15:54] <LLyaudet> 0% analysis, 25% call for proposals, 50% shaping tentative design and the rest for the dev ? [15:54] <mirek2> e.g. 0% no progress, 20% analyzing problem, 40% proposing solutions, 60% shaping tentative design, 80% ready for implementtion, 100% implemented [15:55] <LLyaudet> ok [15:55] <mirek2> wait, that was not thought out well [15:57] <mirek2> 20% problem analysis done, 40% gathering proposals done, 60% tentative design done and ready for implementation, 80% experimental implementation needing testing, 100% implemented and tested [15:57] <LLyaudet> ok [15:59] <mirek2> I'm not too familiar with Bugzilla -- is there an easy way we could accomplish something similar with it? [16:01] <LLyaudet> I don't know. Having distinct status cannot be an option since we can not modify them only for design bugs [16:02] <mirek2> yes, exactly [16:03] <mirek2> ok, so Redmine seems like a good possible solution here [16:03] <mirek2> (unless there's another tool that could help us sort out Bugzilla bugs) [16:03] <mirek2> * It's hard to get a list of open UX bugs [16:03] <mirek2> Could be solved by a link to a search query, as mentioned above [16:04] <LLyaudet> I agree [16:04] <mirek2> Redmine could help, but there would need to be a maintainer to keep it up-to-date [16:05] <mirek2> or we could just say that any designer interested in a UX bug needs to add it to Redmine [16:05] <LLyaudet> ok but then we need a comment in bugzilla with a link to redmine [16:06] <mirek2> yup, that would be useful [16:06] <mirek2> "It's hard to know whether a decision has been reached on smaller UX bugs within the design team or whether people are just giving their opinions" -- solved by the Redmine progress indicator [16:07] <mirek2> (based on whether it's collecting solutions or whether the tentative design is ready) [16:07] <LLyaudet> ok [16:07] <abhra> ok [16:07] <mirek2> "It's hard to guess at how many users are affected by a bug" [16:08] <mirek2> not sure how to deal with that [16:09] <LLyaudet> it's surprising bugzilla has no way of telling "this bug affects me" like PHP bug tracker system does [16:09] <mirek2> yup, that's what I was thinking as well [16:09] <abhra> even that will not give an accurate figure [16:09] <abhra> very few people actually take the initiative to report the bug [16:10] <mirek2> no, but it at least allows an educated guess [16:10] <abhra> could an automatic bug reporter be added in libreoffice? [16:10] <mirek2> it's not the best way to gauge the importance of a bug, but it's at least some way [16:11] <abhra> something under About section like "report a bug" [16:11] <LLyaudet> it would be nice [16:11] <mirek2> abhra: we already have a "Send feedback" link under "Help" [16:12] <abhra> which will open the default browser to the bugzilla page with some important information automatically filled up (eg, OS, lebreoffice version, module affected) [16:12] <mirek2> that links to https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/feedback/?LOversion=4.3.0.1&LOlocale=en-US&LOmodule=TextDocument [16:14] <mirek2> You'll have to suggest that to the people working on the bug submission assistant. [16:15] <abhra> very well [16:15] <mirek2> The version, locale, and module seem to be transmitted, but don't seem to be filled in by default... odd [16:17] <mirek2> try reporting a bug for that [16:18] <mirek2> anyway, back to users affected [16:19] <mirek2> it seems that redmine doesn't offer anything like that either [16:21] <mirek2> and I can't really think of anything else we could use [16:22] <mirek2> except it'd be useful if we could collect button usage statistics, like OOo used to [16:23] <mirek2> https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Tracking_results [16:23] <mirek2> and that might provide some insight into how well things are designed [16:25] == abhra [~dr@117.232.196.228] has quit [Quit: Leaving] [16:25] <mirek2> "There's no clear overview of the design team's current activities" [16:25] <mirek2> I guess this could be solved using Redmine [16:26] <mirek2> If we agree to have ALL currently worked-on issues there. [16:26] <mirek2> any alternative suggestions? [16:27] <LLyaudet> no. Bugzilla list of open bugs can help but it will not yield the percent of completion for each task [16:27] <mirek2> ok [16:28] <mirek2> "There's no clear place to host designs." [16:28] <mirek2> we could use GitHub for this, as suggested by Reda [16:28] <LLyaudet> yes what were the responses on the ml to this ? [16:29] <LLyaudet> there was no response to this suggestion on the ml [16:30] <mirek2> it seems so [16:30] <mirek2> as long as there were no objections, we can try it for now [16:31] <LLyaudet> let's try it and link github on the wiki [16:31] <mirek2> yup, sounds good [16:31] <mirek2> I think I'll dig through the wiki a bit, retool it to our new way of working [16:31] <mirek2> if that's okay with you [16:31] <LLyaudet> ok please do [16:32] <mirek2> what about the redmine forum that KJ introduced? [16:33] <LLyaudet> I'm not particularly in favor of it [16:33] <mirek2> should we try it instead of the mailing list? should we use it for certain things? [16:33] <LLyaudet> I think a forum will be less good than the ml [16:33] <mirek2> well, both have their advantages and disadvantages [16:33] <LLyaudet> Personnaly I don't want to dig in a forum [16:34] <mirek2> well, you can "watch" the forum and get updates sent to your e-mail address [16:35] <LLyaudet> unless the forum is "coupled with the ml" [16:35] <mirek2> you can also read the feed: https://redmine.documentfoundation.org/projects/design/boards.atom?key=d495d1d8f48d347b079913d649f213ce94903193 [16:35] <LLyaudet> yes but you should also be able to simply reply to a mail and it goes atumatically ine the forum [16:35] <mirek2> and it allows file uploads, ideal for quick mockups [16:35] <LLyaudet> *automatically [16:36] <mirek2> that's one of the disadvantages [16:36] <mirek2> however, the more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to suggest that we move from the list to the forum [16:36] <LLyaudet> I think it will be a mess [16:37] <mirek2> I agree we shouldn't use both for the same purpose [16:37] <mirek2> that would be a mess [16:37] <LLyaudet> as you said at the beginning of the meeting about redmine : "basically, I don't want the team to stretch among too many services" [16:38] <mirek2> right -- that's why I'm thinking we should use the Redmine forums instead of the mailing list [16:38] <mirek2> not in addition to [16:38] <mirek2> would that be a mess? [16:38] <LLyaudet> ok but I prefer the ml [16:38] <LLyaudet> we need more persons involved to reach a decision on this point [16:39] <mirek2> well, could we try it for, say, a month and decide based on that experience? [16:40] <mirek2> (you can't make a fully informed decision unless you try it) [16:40] <mirek2> by "try it", I mean not use the design list at all and use only the forum, directing everyone who writes to the list to the forum [16:40] <LLyaudet> ok but then post to the ml with all instructions in order to watch the forum and recieve mails for any change to the forum [16:41] <mirek2> ok, sounds good [16:41] <mirek2> I think we've covered everything [16:41] <LLyaudet> ok if you agree we can finish the meeting for today [16:41] <mirek2> ok [16:41] <mirek2> I'll go through the wiki and write to the ml about the suggested changes [16:42] <LLyaudet> I'll post the log on the wiki [16:42] <mirek2> great, thanks [16:42] <mirek2> see you next month [16:42] <LLyaudet> see you :)