Design/Meetings/2012-04-07

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General

  • Date/Time: 2012-04-07, 1600 GMT (supposed start time)
  • Location: IRC, freenode, channel #libreoffice-design

Attendees

  • alexanderW
  • Mirek2
  • astron
  • Maggie
  • eagles0513875_
  • IvanFilho
  • bbalazs

Log

[12:00] == Maggie [62580ecd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.88.14.205] has joined #libreoffice-design
[12:00] <@eagles0513875_> hey Maggie
[12:00] <Maggie> Hi
[12:00] <alexanderW> hi
[12:00] <@eagles0513875_> :)
[12:01] <@eagles0513875_> working on getting my experimental android UI stuff into the main repo
[12:01] == IvanFilho [bb72ac5d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.187.114.172.93] has joined #libreoffice-design
[12:01] <Maggie> Yeah saw that on the mailing list
[12:01] <@eagles0513875_> yep thats me :)
[12:01] <IvanFilho> Good afternoon! :)
[12:02] <@eagles0513875_> hey IvanFilho
[12:02] <Maggie> :)
[12:02] <@eagles0513875_> j/w guys do you want to move this to a voice chat server?
[12:02] <@eagles0513875_> I'm hosting a team speak server for a friend and its dead right now we could use it for the meeting
[12:02] <Maggie> I don't have a good mic
[12:02] <IvanFilho> Me neither, I'm not on my PC, sorry :D
[12:02] <@eagles0513875_> its ok guys :)
[12:02] <Maggie> Not too familiar with IRC either
[12:02] <alexanderW> this way we can save the log file on the wiki
[12:03] <@eagles0513875_> agreed
[12:03] <@eagles0513875_> I'm surprised this channel isn't registered on freenode
[12:03] <@eagles0513875_> by the TDF
[12:03] <@eagles0513875_> if it was a registered channel we would have ChanServ in here
[12:03] <Maggie> what is ChanServ?
[12:04] <@eagles0513875_> channel services = making people channel operators to kick and ban people etc
[12:04] <@eagles0513875_> set the channel topic and much more
[12:05] <Maggie> So what's on the agenda today?
[12:06] <@eagles0513875_> android UI is why i am here
[12:06] <@eagles0513875_> hehe
[12:06] <alexanderW> Dciding whether we'll apply the whiteboard template
[12:06] <alexanderW> And then go through each whiteboard
[12:08] <Maggie> I'm not sure what do with the website for the bug submission assistant
[12:08] <@eagles0513875_> :)
[12:08] <alexanderW> What's wrong with that?
[12:08] <@eagles0513875_> are we the only ones
[12:09] <@eagles0513875_> for the meeting or are there others
[12:09] <Maggie> There's nothing wrong with it from what I can tell, but some of the choices for choosing your version of LO are rather confusing.
[12:10] <Maggie> Also, I'm not sure if the design team addresses this but I have relatives who use LO and they have been complaining about some things they have encountered while using Writer.
[12:11] <alexanderW> It's quite verbose, but I think that's neccessary to hunt down the bugs.
[12:12] * eagles0513875_ sits patiently waiting for my turn
[12:12] <Maggie> So is the BSA more for developers/QA or is it for users?
[12:12] * eagles0513875_ continues working on integration of my android UI project into the core code
[12:12] <alexanderW> If those issues are related to the GUI, we could probably come up with a whiteboard.
[12:13] <alexanderW> It's for both I think, but many users don't have a required Bugzilla account
[12:14] <Maggie> If they have to deal with where some options are located on the menu would that deal with the GUI?
[12:15] <Maggie> I would like to see if there was a way to have it auto-detect which version of LO the user was using when they submitted a bug. Not sure how tod it and it's probably out of the scope of the Design team anyways.
[12:16] <IvanFilho> I think there is no way to "auto-detect" this
[12:16] <@eagles0513875_> i have seen auto detect version included in linux bug traces at least when an app crashes in kubuntu and the back trace gets submitted then launchpad seems to automatically set the version and package in the bug report
[12:18] <alexanderW> AFAIK, there no such feature in LO
[12:18] <IvanFilho> What about Windows and Mac users? It's better put instructions in the page to the user to look at the "About" dialog...
[12:19] * eagles0513875_ sits quietly and follows the convo
[12:21] <@eagles0513875_> sigh i hope i didn't break my droid UI project i have in eclipse
[12:25] <Maggie> eagle, what language are you writing your prototype in?
[12:25] <@eagles0513875_> I'm using the native android sdk which is java
[12:25] <@eagles0513875_> i know what i need to do to fix it
[12:28] <alexanderW> SH
[12:28] <alexanderW> Shall we discuss the whiteboards?
[12:28] <Maggie> Sure.
[12:28] <@eagles0513875_> go for it
[12:28] <@eagles0513875_> atm I'm busy trying to fix this project
[12:29] == IvanFilho [bb72ac5d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.187.114.172.93] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
[12:29] <alexanderW> It is aimed at users
[12:30] <alexanderW> scratch that, scrolled up by accident
[12:30] <alexanderW> Does anyone know how this read/write mode is supposed to work?
[12:30] <alexanderW> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Mirek2#Tentative_Whiteboard_Template
[12:33] <alexanderW> Ah, I guess thats just an example of mockups
[12:34] <@eagles0513875_> sigh :(
[12:35] <@eagles0513875_> think I'm going to have to redo this project from source sadly :(
[12:35] <alexanderW> why?
[12:35] <@eagles0513875_> some how broke it
[12:35] <@eagles0513875_> it won't take me a long time to create a new project
[12:36] <@eagles0513875_> i might create the project in the android directory of the core
[12:36] <alexanderW> How much code did you already have?
[12:36] <@eagles0513875_> not much
[12:36] <@eagles0513875_> very little java
[12:36] <@eagles0513875_> i can copy and paste it
[12:36] <@eagles0513875_> actuallly
[12:36] <@eagles0513875_> i think i can still save this
[12:37] <@eagles0513875_> as i removed a directory that was needed i need to revert my last push to my git hub repo
[12:38] <alexanderW> Is there anything that'd need to be changed or added regarding this whiteboard template
[12:39] <alexanderW> ?
[12:40] == fffun [bc678c0b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.103.140.11] has joined #libreoffice-design
[12:41] <alexanderW> hi fffun
[12:42] <alexanderW> who are you?
[12:42] <@eagles0513875_> alexanderW: seeing as i was in here first i have power to kick and ban
[12:43] <Maggie> Alexander, do you intend to have a section on your template for Use Cases?
[12:43] <@eagles0513875_> lets see if the revert fixed it :)
[12:43] <@eagles0513875_> then i have to use git rm to remove the remote directories
[12:43] <@eagles0513875_> ugh this is so confusing
[12:44] <alexanderW> Btw, it's not my template. Mirek added 'Personas', which would be equivalent to Use Cases
[12:45] <@eagles0513875_> shit
[12:45] <@eagles0513875_> i fucked up my project :(
[12:45] <@eagles0513875_> can do it again really fast
[12:45] <alexanderW> I'll be afk for some minutes
[12:45] <@eagles0513875_> in about an hour
[12:48] <Maggie> I saw the Personas. Those looked more like user stories to me. I was thinking of a way to more formally show how each feature/requirement would work.
[12:54] <@eagles0513875_> ping me if you need me
[12:54] <@eagles0513875_> I'm working on a new project
[12:54] <@eagles0513875_> for integration into the core source
[12:56] <Maggie> I'm just waiting to see if there's going to be any more discussion about the white boards..
[12:56] <Maggie> Also, any more icons to be made
[12:56] <@eagles0513875_> we are going to need special icons made for android i think
[12:57] == bbalazs [~bjoern@g230184064.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #libreoffice-design
[12:57] <bbalazs> Hi
[12:57] <bbalazs> I am too late for the meeting I guess :)
[12:58] <@eagles0513875_> bbalazs: nope we still in here discussing on and off
[12:58] <@eagles0513875_> having to redo all my android stuff i had started which wasn't much
[13:00] <bbalazs> If there is any interest: I brought up the idea of user testing the icons - if there is any interest, I could drop some words about that
[13:00] == Mirek2 [d5dcf47d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.220.244.125] has joined #libreoffice-design
[13:01] <Mirek2> hi everyone
[13:01] <Mirek2> no discussion?
[13:01] <@eagles0513875_> Mirek2: there was a bit
[13:02] <@eagles0513875_> I'm redoing my android work
[13:02] <Mirek2> ok
[13:02] <Mirek2> has the chat officially ended?
[13:02] <@eagles0513875_> created a ui directory with the project inside the android directory and will submit a patch to get that included in the core :)
[13:02] <@eagles0513875_> there was white board discussion and its just ended
[13:02] <Maggie> not sure; there was some discussion about the template for the white board
[13:02] <alexanderW> I'm back
[13:02] == astron1 [~cck@dslb-188-103-140-011.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #libreoffice-design
[13:02] <astron1> hi
[13:02] <alexanderW> hi
[13:03] <Mirek2> hey
[13:03] <@eagles0513875_> alexanderW: i some how busted my initial project lol
[13:03] <@eagles0513875_> redoing it this time with a new directory in the android directory in core
[13:04] <astron1> where are we?
[13:04] <Mirek2> so the topic is the android home screen?
[13:05] <alexanderW> We haven't discussed much yet
[13:05] <@eagles0513875_> Mirek2: i was actually going to drop the start center idea
[13:05] <@eagles0513875_> and go for a file explorer
[13:05] <@eagles0513875_> Tor suggested just for starters to get a UI that will allow only opening of files on android for now
[13:05] <Mirek2> ok
[13:06] <@eagles0513875_> and I agree with him
[13:06] <@eagles0513875_> integration is going to be the toughest part
[13:06] <astron1> afk for dinner...
[13:07] <Mirek2> ok
[13:08] <Mirek2> I've been thinking -- since both the Android port and the web port reuse parts from LibreOffice, how about coding the final browser for the desktop
[13:08] <Mirek2> and then porting it to LibreOffice with a custom UI?
[13:08] <@eagles0513875_> Mirek2:  android is a java UI
[13:09] <Mirek2> yeah, but the backend is the C++ desktop LibreOffice
[13:09] <@eagles0513875_> nope
[13:09] <@eagles0513875_> just functionality
[13:09] <@eagles0513875_> ui is a total rewrite for android
[13:09] <@eagles0513875_> and it won't work for the web ui
[13:10] <@eagles0513875_> for a web version which I'm not sure would integrate with the native c/c++ but i would look at the django python web frame work for that
[13:10] <Mirek2> yes, the ui is a rewrite
[13:10] <Mirek2> but the backend is cross-platform
[13:11] <@eagles0513875_> correct that is not my department though
[13:11] <Mirek2> the web version uses GTK's Broadway backend
[13:11] <@eagles0513875_> mmeeks is the one in charge of that project
[13:11] <Mirek2> yes
[13:11] <@eagles0513875_> I'm not even sure if a UI rewrite is even necessary
[13:11] <@eagles0513875_>  
[13:12] <Mirek2> technically, it's not, but the UI wouldn't follow Android conventions if it wasn't rewritten
[13:12] <@eagles0513875_> agreed
[13:12] <@eagles0513875_> from what I'm reading and i have tried out the ui layout is mostly done in xml
[13:12] <@eagles0513875_> java if I'm not mistaken would be used for functionality
[13:13] == astron1 [~cck@dslb-188-103-140-011.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: astron1]
[13:13] <Mirek2> anyway, you're just working on the prototype, right?
[13:13] <Mirek2> not the final?
[13:13] <Mirek2> in that case, feel free to be creative
[13:13] <@eagles0513875_> prototype
[13:14] <@eagles0513875_> I'm going for simplicity that a user will like yet still retain full functionality of the full version of LO on pc
[13:14] <Mirek2> ok
[13:14] <Mirek2> but don't get your hopes up that your UI will get implemented
[13:15] <Mirek2> it's going to have to be thoroughly reviewed by the design team first
[13:15] == fffun [bc678c0b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.103.140.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
[13:15] <@eagles0513875_> thats fine
[13:16] <@eagles0513875_> at least ill know though how to fix the code and adapt it :D
[13:16] <@eagles0513875_> and can submit patches
[13:16] <Mirek2> ok, good :]
[13:16] <Mirek2> in any case, have you talked about the whiteboard template?
[13:16] <Mirek2> has it been approved?
[13:16] <alexanderW> We tried:)
[13:16] <Mirek2> but...
[13:17] <alexanderW> No critizism so far. Should be vote again or do we regard it as approved?
[13:17] == Mirek2_ [d5dcf47d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.220.244.125] has joined #libreoffice-design
[13:18] <Mirek2_> had to open another tab, chat got stuck
[13:18] <Mirek2_> so why didn't the template get approved again?
[13:18] <alexanderW> no one voted
[13:19] <alexanderW> Well, I approve
[13:19] <Mirek2_> if nobody raised any complaints/reservations, then it's approved
[13:19] <alexanderW> I think we should start implementing it/ discussing individual whiteboards
[13:19] <Mirek2_> yes
[13:20] <Maggie> I just have one question: Would it be possible to allow for more formal use cases in the template?
[13:20] <Maggie> Because other than that i approve of it.
[13:20] <Mirek2_> such as?
[13:20] <Mirek2_> name a use case
[13:21] <Maggie> Example: A user wants to open a document
[13:21] == Mirek2 [d5dcf47d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.220.244.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
[13:21] <Mirek2_> ok
[13:21] <Maggie> Then along with the Personas, if necessary, I could show a formal flow demonstrating how this works.
[13:21] <Maggie> I know that's a very simplistic example.
[13:22] <Mirek2_> not sure what you mean
[13:22] <Mirek2_> would the whiteboard be about finding the best way to open documents?
[13:22] <Maggie> No, not like that.
[13:23] <Maggie> Let me show you an example on the mailing list. I don't want to hold the voting because I approve of the whiteboard template otherwise.
[13:23] <Mirek2_> would this be an analysis of the current behavior or a description of the tentative design?
[13:23] <Mirek2_> ok
[13:23] <Maggie> Yes.
[13:23] <Mirek2_> so you approve, then?
[13:23] <Maggie> Yeah.
[13:23] <Mirek2_> ok
[13:24] <Mirek2_> then let's look at the first Interaction design whiteboard
[13:24] <Mirek2_> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Color_Handling
[13:24] <Mirek2_> wait, hold on
[13:25] <Mirek2_> about the status indicators
[13:26] <Mirek2_> it would be nice if Astron were here
[13:26] <Mirek2_> "design taking shape" vs. "finalizing proposal"
[13:27] <Mirek2_> I think design taking shape would be better, as the single tentative design really is taking shape from the ground up
[13:27] <Mirek2_> although it's based on the analysis of the submitted proposals
[13:27] <Mirek2_> what do you all think?
[13:28] <Mirek2_> (it's a minor thing, but it's better to get it figured out before we start implementing it on all whiteboards)
[13:28] <Mirek2_> no opinion?
[13:29] <Maggie> I think 'design taking shape' is fine.
[13:29] <Maggie> Might be a better way of putting it though
[13:30] <Mirek2_> ok
[13:30] <Mirek2_> then let's keep it that way for now
[13:30] <Mirek2_> and let's look at the color handling page
[13:31] <Mirek2_> problem 1: what do we do with the thoughts and ideas section?
[13:31] <Mirek2_> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Color_Handling#Thoughts_and_Ideas
[13:31] <Mirek2_> should I start a thread with these questions, so that we can discuss them and at the same time remove them from the whiteboard?
[13:33] == Mirek2 [d5dcf47d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.220.244.125] has joined #libreoffice-design
[13:34] <Mirek2> i must be doing something wrong, as this chat keeps crashing
[13:34] <Maggie> I would take the issues under "Thoughts & Ideas" and put them under Analysis. Then take the remaining questions and make a thread out of them. I'm guessing that by thread you mean making one on the mailing list.
[13:34] <Maggie> Anyone agree?
[13:35] <@eagles0513875_> ?
[13:35] <@eagles0513875_> sry working on my android stuff
[13:35] <alexanderW> Do you mean a mailing list thread?
[13:35] <Mirek2> there's no space for analysis of the current situation in the whiteboard, though
[13:36] <Mirek2> yes, mailing list thread
[13:36] == bbalazs [~bjoern@g230184064.adsl.alicedsl.de] has left #libreoffice-design ["Konversation terminated!"]
[13:36] == Mirek2_ [d5dcf47d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.220.244.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
[13:36] <Mirek2> only space for bugs and analysis of the proposals
[13:36] <alexanderW> I think the analysis of the current situation could be part of the summary
[13:37] <Mirek2> so what would you propose to add to the summary on the color handling page?
[13:39] <alexanderW> "The following issues with the current implementation should be avoided: ..."
[13:39] <alexanderW> And the a short description of the problems
[13:39] <alexanderW> *then
[13:39] <Mirek2> that should be inside a bug report then
[13:40] <Mirek2> we'd just link to the bug report
[13:40] <Mirek2> or inside the scope
[13:41] <alexanderW> I meant smthg like this: Handles are "hidden" in the menu (hard to customize the gradient for the current object)
[13:41] <alexanderW> Thats not really a bug
[13:41] <Mirek2> it is a design bug
[13:41] <@eagles0513875_> making progress with integration of my android project hopefully should have a patch soon
[13:41] <@eagles0513875_> at least a patch to get the initial project into the core repo :)
[13:42] <@eagles0513875_> that way people have access to it in master and can start developing and experimenting
[13:42] <Mirek2> but we coudl put it as "make gradient handles more apparent" under scope
[13:42] <Maggie> "    Naming of colors that are stored within documents but not available in the current --> How does the user know that this is a "non-standard" color? How does LibO set the name ("Color n", n=number)? "
[13:42] <Mirek2> or "expose gradient customization" or something along those lines
[13:42] <Maggie> Is this a current problem with the LibO color picker?
[13:43] <Mirek2> don't really understand the question
[13:43] == alexanderW [~alexander@dslb-088-078-119-147.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #libreoffice-design []
[13:43] <Mirek2> ok, now I get it
[13:43] <Maggie> I saw this under Issues in "Thoughts & Ideas"
[13:44] <Maggie> I was wondering why that couldn't be put under the Analysis section.
[13:44] <Mirek2> there is no analysis section on the whiteboard template
[13:45] <Mirek2> should be either under scope as "figure out how to name non-standard colors" or under bugs
[13:45] <Mirek2> preferably the former
[13:46] <Mirek2> in general, if it's something that every proposal should take into account, then it should be under scope
[13:46] == alexander [~alexander@dslb-088-078-119-147.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #libreoffice-design
[13:46] <alexander> empathy sux
[13:46] == alexander [~alexander@dslb-088-078-119-147.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
[13:47] <Mirek2> if it's not that important, then it's okay to keep to the discussion list
[13:47] <@eagles0513875_> good news guys
[13:48] <@eagles0513875_> generating patch to submit to the developers list to get the project included in core/android in the UI directory :)
[13:48] == Guest93207 [~alexander@dslb-088-078-119-147.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #libreoffice-design
[13:48] <Mirek2> looking forward to screenshots
[13:48] <Mirek2> can't test it though
[13:48] <Mirek2> anyway, back to the whiteboard
[13:48] <Guest93207> I'm Alex
[13:48] <Mirek2> can we agree on this?
[13:48] <Mirek2> ok
[13:49] <Mirek2> maybe you could try http://webchat.freenode.net/ instead<
[13:49] <Guest93207> now using Xchat
[13:49] <@eagles0513875_> Mirek2: going to do some more work on it to get it back to where it was before
[13:49] <Mirek2> ok
[13:49] <@eagles0513875_> Mirek2: on another note actually trying to get an Xcode project for mac devs
[13:49] <@eagles0513875_> mac has a lot of very nice tools and a
[13:49] <@eagles0513875_> �
[13:49] <@eagles0513875_> Xcode is a very nice IDE
[13:50] <Guest93207> For java?
[13:50] <@eagles0513875_> no
[13:50] <@eagles0513875_> for objective -c and c/c++
[13:50] <@eagles0513875_> also trying to build against the 10.7 mac SDK
[13:50] <Mirek2> alex, if you
[13:50] <Mirek2> if you'd like to get caught up, I posted some of the chat on https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Mirek2#Discussion
[13:51] <Mirek2> sorry it's not spaced properly
[13:51] <Maggie> alright Mirek now I see what you mean
[13:51] <Guest93207> ah, thx
[13:52] <Guest93207> Yeah, such things should be under 'scope'
[13:52] <Mirek2> so could we keep all the important issues in either bugs or the scope and the unimportant or subjective stuff to the mailing list?
[13:52] <Guest93207> Makes it also look a bit more optimistic compared to highlighting all current shortcomings :)
[13:53] <Mirek2> :) yeah
[13:53] <Mirek2> so about the thoughts and ideas section...
[13:53] <Mirek2> would it be ok to just start a mailing list thread on it and remove it from the whiteboard
[13:54] <Maggie> Yeah.
[13:54] <Mirek2> ok
[13:54] <Maggie> That way the issues can be discussed with the team. Maybe even shared with the dev team in the future.
[13:54] <Mirek2> yeah
[13:54] <Mirek2> "competitive analysis" should go under "relevant art" -- agree?
[13:55] <Mirek2> can we get rid of the "today's behavior" section?
[13:55] <Guest93207> I think so
[13:56] <Mirek2> alright
[13:57] <Mirek2> about this patch -- http://www.mail-archive.com/libreoffice@lists.freedesktop.org/msg09942.html
[13:57] <Mirek2> I don't really see how it's relevant to the whiteboard...
[13:58] <Mirek2> what do you think?
[13:59] <Maggie> Looks like that would be more relevant for the dev team. Who submitted the bug and is that person a part of this team?
[14:00] <@eagles0513875_> initial patch submitted now we wait and see if its pushed to master :)
[14:00] <Mirek2> I just don't see it's use on the whiteboard...
[14:02] <Mirek2> do you?
[14:04] <Guest93207> Maybe a link to the video
[14:05] <Mirek2> does it only serve as relevant art? why is it under technical constraints?
[14:08] <Mirek2> anyone?
[14:08] <Maggie> The video provides an example of how the redesigned color picker would work.
[14:08] <Maggie> The technical information doesn't really talk about tech. constraints.
[14:09] <Mirek2> I think it's already implemented
[14:09] <Mirek2> I'll put the video under relevant art
[14:09] <Mirek2> don't think it's necessary to put the discussion on the page
[14:09] <Maggie> That can be taken out. It looks like it would be for the development team.
[14:10] <Mirek2> ok
[14:12] <Mirek2> working on rewriting the page, give me a minute
[14:12] <@eagles0513875_> working on getting the android stuff to where I had it
[14:13] <Mirek2> is there a thread devoted to color handling on the design team list?
[14:14] <Mirek2> I can't find it, don't think there is one.
[14:14] <Guest93207> Just make a new one
[14:16] <Guest93207> I'll be back in a few minutes
[14:16] <Mirek2> ok
[14:25] <Mirek2> first attempt: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Color_Handling
[14:27] <Mirek2> feedback wanted
[14:27] <Mirek2> :)
[14:27] <@eagles0513875_> :D
[14:27] <@eagles0513875_> making progress here again :)
[14:29] <Mirek2> nobody?
[14:29] <@eagles0513875_> sry not really following :(
[14:29] <@eagles0513875_> really want to move this android stuff forward
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[14:34] <Maggie> Much cleaner than the original whiteboard
[14:34] <Maggie> I'm guessing that the Discussion section would include any logs dealing with the color picker
[14:34] <Maggie> Or mail list threads
[14:34] <Maggie> Right?
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[14:35] <Mirek2> yes
[14:36] <Mirek2> exactly
[14:36] <Mirek2> Shall we move on to the next one?
[14:36] <Mirek2> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboard/Calc_Range_Names
[14:37] <Mirek2> That's going to be a lot of work
[14:38] <Mirek2> It's not in my range of expertise -- I don't use calc
[14:39] <Mirek2> does anyone here want to take care of it?
[14:40] <Maggie> I would do it, but I'm not too familiar with Calc.
[14:40] <Maggie> Would be willing to work with someone who is;  I'm more familiar with Writer and Impress
[14:41] <Mirek2> yeah, me too
[14:41] <Mirek2> I'll ask when Astron or Alex comes...
[14:41] <Mirek2> I'm surprised that you could make it for today's chat, Maggie
[14:42] <Mirek2> the Doodle poll said you wouldn't be available
[14:42] <Mirek2> would this time be acceptable for you every week?
[14:42] <Maggie> Not every week.
[14:42] <Mirek2> as I'm afraid that this time is best for most people and it really can't satisfy everyone
[14:43] <Maggie> I can make the weekends (Sat and Sun)
[14:43] <Maggie> I'll try and make it as often as I can.
[14:43] <Mirek2> so it's ok if it's our weekly meeting time?
[14:43] <Maggie> Well, it's at 12 PM Saturday it seems so that's fine.
[14:43] <Maggie> At least 12 PM in my timezone.
[14:43] <Mirek2> ok
[14:44] <Mirek2> the next IRC chat will be the same time next week
[14:44] <Maggie> Alright.
[14:44] <Maggie> If I can't make it I'll yet you know ahead of time.
[14:44] <Mirek2> alright
[14:44] <Mirek2> one more thing -- do you have a complete log of this chat?
[14:45] <Mirek2> the web version failed twice for me, so I only have a fraction
[14:45] <Maggie> I was thinking of just copy and pasting what's in the window.
[14:45] <Mirek2> yes
[14:45] <Mirek2> could you do that and then put it on the wiki page once the chat is over?
[14:45] <Maggie> Okay. I don't have a name for the wiki yet.
[14:46] <Mirek2> at https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings
[14:46] <Mirek2> see the past two logs for the structure
[14:46] <Maggie> Alright.
[14:47] <Mirek2> are there any whiteboards you'd like to tweak to the new whiteboard template?
[14:47] <Maggie> I don't have the names of everyone who attended.
[14:48] <Maggie> i would have to look at the white boards. I'm afraid I haven't put any up myself. I don't want to edit ones done by other members without their knowledge.
[14:48] <Mirek2> you, me, Alex Wilms, Stefan Knorr (Astron), Jonathan Aquilina, and perhaps some others
[14:49] <Mirek2> ok
[14:50] <Mirek2> I'll edit even the ones not authored by me, since it's going to be faster
[14:50] <Mirek2> thankfully the history is always saved
[14:51] <Mirek2> so we can always revert back or look back at what we had
[14:51] <Mirek2> and the original author can always tweak it to his liking
[14:52] <Maggie> If that's the case, then let me take another look at the whiteboards.
[14:52] <Maggie> I'm not too familiar with editing the wiki. is there anywhere I can go to learn more about this?
[14:52] <Maggie> I've only used pbWiki
[14:52] <Mirek2> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Wiki_markup
[14:53] <Guest93207> hi again
[14:53] <Maggie> Alright.
[14:53] <Mirek2> if you're not comfortable with it, you don't have to
[14:53] <Guest93207> looks much better than before
[14:53] <Maggie> No I would like to contribute more
[14:53] <Maggie> I figure I should start somewhere
[14:53] <Mirek2> ok
[14:53] <Mirek2> pick a whiteboard to work on
[14:54] <Mirek2> and post your choice up here, so we don't accidentally end up working on the same stuff
[14:54] <Guest93207> i could start with table styles and templates dialog
[14:54] <Mirek2> Alex, how familiar are you with Calc?
[14:54] <Guest93207> not too familiar
[14:55] <Mirek2> neither Maggie nor me use it much
[14:55] <Guest93207> have only used it lonce
[14:55] <Mirek2> ok, then I assume you won't want to work on https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboard/Calc_Range_Names
[14:56] <Guest93207> maybe we could split the work on that whiteboard
[14:56] <Mirek2> also possible
[14:56] <Maggie> Mirek, I'll do the whiteboard for the Overflow menu. Is that alright?
[14:56] <Mirek2> sure
[14:57] <Maggie> And when do you need everything to be changed to the new template?
[14:57] <Mirek2> no due date
[14:58] <Mirek2> no developers are working on whiteboards yet, so we can convert them whenever
[14:58] <Maggie> Alright.
[14:58] <Mirek2> but faster is always better
[14:58] <Maggie> Ok. Are there still new icons proposals?
[14:58] <Maggie> And what's going with Citrus UI?
[14:59] <Mirek2> Citrus UI was always just a UI proposal
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[14:59] <Maggie> So there's no plans for a new UI for now.
[14:59] <Mirek2> not yet
[15:00] <Mirek2> nobody's working on it
[15:00] <Maggie> Okay. So no mockups for that for now.
[15:00] <@eagles0513875_> well update on android stuff
[15:00] <@eagles0513875_> I'm almost back to where i was before i screwed up my last project
[15:00] <Maggie> Good to hear eagles
[15:01] <Maggie> What was wrong?
[15:01] <@eagles0513875_> testing and improving as i go along in regards to it
[15:01] <@eagles0513875_> i fucked up the eclipse project lol
[15:01] <Mirek2> about icon proposals: what do you think about testing them?
[15:01] <Maggie> You don't how it messed up?
[15:01] <Maggie> how would we test them?
[15:01] <Mirek2> not sure
[15:01] <@eagles0513875_> Maggie: i needed to not have the bin and gen directories included in version control
[15:01] <astron1> @mirek: wheres björn now?
[15:01] <Mirek2> perhaps have something along the lines of the current "in context" image
[15:02] <@eagles0513875_> but now i added it directly in the android directory in core and generated a patch to get it included in master
[15:02] <Mirek2> just with a full UI
[15:02] <Mirek2> bjorn probably left
[15:02] <Mirek2> for good
[15:02] <Mirek2> im not sure though
[15:02] <astron1> ok
[15:03] <Mirek2> astron, are there any whiteboards you'd like to work on converting to the new whiteboard template?
[15:03] <Maggie> Mirek, where's the final version of the new whiteboard template?
[15:03] <astron1> hm my own about:config thing...
[15:03] <Mirek2> still at https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Mirek2#Tentative_Whiteboard_Template
[15:03] <astron1> that isnt actually started yet
[15:04] <Mirek2> :) ok
[15:04] <Mirek2> astron -- about the "design taking shape" vs. "finalizing proposals" issue
[15:04] <astron1> yeah
[15:04] <Mirek2> I think "design taking shape" is more appropriate
[15:04] <Mirek2> as:
[15:05] <Mirek2> we're making the design from scratch, although based on the analysis of the submitted proposals
[15:06] <Mirek2> and "design" is the term that the whiteboard uses for the tentative design
[15:06] <astron1> oh ok ... from scratch but based on the proposals. isnt that a contradiction?
[15:06] <Mirek2> not really
[15:07] <astron1> but well decide on one that were using primarily.
[15:07] <Mirek2> all designs are basically from scratch, but based on proposed/past/competitor designs
[15:07] <Mirek2> yeah
[15:08] <astron1> thats not from scratch
[15:08] <Mirek2> sorry, misunderstood the question
[15:08] <Mirek2> we won't always necessarily take a single proposal and start from that
[15:09] <astron1> sure but therell be some sort of main influence
[15:09] <astron1> sorry for my terminology nazi-ness...
[15:09] <Mirek2> we should take into account all of the proposals and produce something from that
[15:10] <Mirek2> yeah, probably, not necessarily always though
[15:11] <Mirek2> theoretically, the tentative design is separate from the proposals and is based purely on what comes out of the proposal analysis
[15:11] <astron1> ok
[15:12] <Mirek2> but it's likely that it will resemble one proposal more than others
[15:12] <Mirek2> so is "design taking shape" ok?
[15:13] <astron1> okay... still weird somehow. but accepted
[15:14] <Mirek2> okay, good :)
[15:14] <Mirek2> if you can think of something better-worded, though, now is the time to say it
[15:14] <astron1> sure
[15:15] <Mirek2> should I replace https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/IdeaWorkflow with the new whiteboard template?
[15:15] <Mirek2> or create a separate page for it?
[15:16] <@eagles0513875_> next time guys we should do one on my team speak server
[15:18] <astron1> do we have some sort of replacement for requirements/wishes/constraints yet?
[15:18] <astron1> ~scope?
[15:19] <Mirek2> Scope, yes
[15:20] <astron1> well then do that, i guess... we can always roll back.
[15:20] <Mirek2> replace Idea Workflow, you mean?
[15:20] <astron1> yes
[15:20] <Mirek2> alright
[15:21] <astron1> obviously idea workflow is a bad title though...
[15:21] <Mirek2> everyone here agrees?
[15:21] <Mirek2> what would you suggest?
[15:21] <Mirek2> whiteboard template?
[15:21] <astron1> so ... maybe a new page, but link from the same pages
[15:21] <astron1> wb tmpl.
[15:21] <astron1> is fine
[15:22] <astron1> going off...
[15:22] <astron1> sorry.
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[15:22] <Mirek2> ok
[15:23] <Mirek2> everyone agree?
[15:23] <@eagles0513875_> I'm around still :)
[15:23] <@eagles0513875_> sadly not really following I'm in my own android world :(
[15:23] <Maggie> Yeah that's fine.
[15:24] <Mirek2> alex?
[15:27] <Mirek2> ok, I moved it
[15:29] <Mirek2> so everyone has a whiteboard to work on?
[15:29] <Mirek2> I'll take all of mine except the overflow menu
[15:30] <Mirek2> I guess we're done then?
[15:30] <Mirek2> anything else you guys want to discuss?
[15:31] <Maggie> I'm done for today.
[15:32] <Mirek2> alright
[15:32] <Mirek2> so, Maggie, please post the chat log on the wiki
[15:32] <Maggie> Alright. Will do when this chat is officially over.
[15:32] <Mirek2> officially over as of now