Design/Meetings/2012-04-28

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General

• Date/Time: 2012-04-21, 1600 GMT (supposed start time)
• Location: IRC, freenode, channel #libreoffice-design

Attendees

• AlexanderW
• Android272
• Astron
• Mirek2

Log

alexanderW 18:02:30
hi#	

mirek2 18:02:49
hi
i guess we can get started 18:03:50
I'd like to take a look at the Design page 18:04:06
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design 18:04:07
 
Android272 18:04:19
ok	

mirek2 18:04:25
Do you think anything important is missing?
Or that something could be organized in a way to better suite our audience? 18:04:41
(Our audience is anyone looking to be on the team or already on it.) 18:05:13
There's been one element that I've been questioning myself -- the language picker 18:05:57
 
Android272 18:06:10
I think the yellow block could be toned down a bit. its kinda bright.
what about it. 18:06:24
 
mirek2 18:06:49
the German version seems to just describe what the team does	

alexanderW 18:06:59
what language picker?	

mirek2 18:07:10
below the menu	

alexanderW 18:07:16
Ah	

mirek2 18:07:17
but as you need to know English to be part of the team, it seems a bit useless
this one 18:07:31
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/zh-cn 18:07:32
 
alexanderW 18:07:36
So should we delete the localized pages?	

mirek2 18:07:59
I just think we don't need them	

alexanderW 18:08:19
agree	

mirek2 18:08:21
at least not when the most they can do is link to our English mailing list...
the spanish one, though, seems interesting 18:08:44
 
Android272 18:08:51
well do the at least tell the person looking for their language that to be apart of this team you need to speak english?	

alexanderW 18:09:23
whats interesting about the spanish page?	

Android272 18:09:32
Yah?	

mirek2 18:09:37
they list some members
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/es/miembros 18:09:39
that's all they do, actually 18:09:43
 
alexanderW 18:10:02
We have a list of all the members, though	

mirek2 18:10:08
maybe these people could serve as a gateway to Spanish members that can't speak English	

Android272 18:10:29
idk	

mirek2 18:10:35
oddly, though, I don't recall either of the two being on the list	

Android272 18:11:21
was "that's all they do, actually" in response to my "that's all they do, actually..."?
aggg, my previous question. 18:11:58
 
mirek2 18:12:23
no, it was a continuation of the sentence "they list some members"
in any case, I don't think the language versions have a point right now 18:12:28
not unless we have representatives that would translate contributions from non-English speakers and push them to the mailing list/whiteboard 18:13:04
I don't think that'll happen, though 18:13:22
 
Android272 18:13:55
it does seem a bit weird seance we only have four different Lagrange and everyone on the mailing list seems to know english. maybe its more important on the dev side?	

mirek2 18:13:56
as I doubt we'll have that many members anytime soon for it to make sense to do...	

Android272 18:14:20
no	

mirek2 18:14:20
you mean on the development page?	

Android272 18:14:25
yes	

mirek2 18:14:43
yeah, there it makes sense
I guess... 18:14:47
 
alexanderW 18:15:05
how does one delete a page?	

mirek2 18:15:08
can I remove the language picker from the design page, then?	

Android272 18:15:21
I bet there are a lot more people on the dev side that speak different languages.	

mirek2 18:15:28
I think you have to be an admin
@Android272: yeah, for sure 18:15:44
removing the menu from the design page, then 18:16:25
 
alexanderW 18:16:31
alright	

Android272 18:16:34
ok	

alexanderW 18:17:00
Apparently, no one else submitted another proposal for the template picker
Is there anything you'd like to comment on? 18:17:21
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Templates_and_documents_rework 18:17:22
It's a GSoc project 18:18:01
 
mirek2 18:18:13
the call for proposals for both the template picker and the alexanderW impress remote goes until next saturday	

alexanderW 18:18:22
ah	

Android272 18:18:31
I just realized that and started something. no ready though	

mirek2 18:18:49
(whoops, freenode added your name to my sentence automatically)
we have about 3 weeks to get the designs done for the GSoC projects 18:19:37
 
Android272 18:20:17
cool	
astron247 hat den Raum betreten 18:20	

alexanderW 18:20:26
hi	

astron247 18:20:31
hello	

Android272 18:20:59
hi	

mirek2 18:21:01
hi	

astron247 18:21:30
sorry for being so late... what are you discussing?	

mirek2 18:21:45
GSoC	

Android272 18:21:45
stuff
18:21:48
 
mirek2 18:21:53
development starts May 21st	

astron247 18:21:59
right...	

Android272 18:22:38
so then which do we want to talk about first?	

mirek2 18:22:41
that's 3 weeks and 2 days
projects are templates dialog, impress remote, and a java gui for android 18:22:45
I've talked with tor about the java gui 18:22:56
on the ux advise list 18:23:08
 
astron247 18:23:12
really cool that you two are discussing btw	

Android272 18:23:13
when did that happen?	

astron247 18:23:19
~last week	

Android272 18:23:32
the java gui for android	

astron247 18:23:34
ie over the course of this wek
it doesnt exist yet if thats what you mean 18:23:48
 
Android272 18:24:00
duh	

mirek2 18:24:16
I was thinking we could have one whiteboard for the file viewer
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/File_Manager 18:24:22
which I already made prior to the project 18:24:25
I meant file manager 18:24:42
 
Android272 18:24:47
so then what all does the java gui for android intail?	

mirek2 18:24:49
and then one for the file viewer
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/File_Viewer 18:24:50
 
Android272 18:25:02
*entale	

mirek2 18:25:22
it's the whole interface for Android
but just for viewing files, not for editing them 18:25:41
(which is a bit disappointing, IMHO) 18:25:53
 
Android272 18:26:18
thats a bit broad	

mirek2 18:26:32
I've written an e-mail to Tor about what features he'd like us to design for and not to design for and he has yet to respond	

Android272 18:26:45
ohhh	

alexanderW 18:27:03
Will the remote app be seperate from LO for Android?	

mirek2 18:27:14
yes
it's a separate project 18:27:18
or at least it seems so 18:27:23
I'm sure the two could share some code, though 18:27:42
 
astron247 18:27:52
hm, not so much i guess.
and i think the timeframe for releasing the remote app is much different 18:28:05
(ie shorter) 18:28:09
 
mirek2 18:28:33
it's possible
in any case, about the file viewer/manager 18:28:51
 
alexanderW 18:29:04
It would make more sense if it was completely seperate, I think	

mirek2 18:29:19
you can start working on your designs, but be aware that requirements can change
@alex I think so too 18:29:27
if we'd like to produce a tentative design for the Android app on time, then we really should begin now 18:30:04
 
alexanderW 18:30:16
That file viewer would be the base for a complete LO suite on android?	

Android272 18:30:19
yah	

mirek2 18:30:29
I'm not sure
I'm just holding off on adding it to the things we're working on because we don't have all the details yet 18:31:13
Alex, could you remove your e-mail from https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Templates_and_documents_rework and put it on your user page? 18:32:03
it's a more suitable place for it... 18:32:34
alex, you still there? 18:33:29
 
Android272 18:33:35
so then the remote?	

mirek2 18:33:57
what about it?
we just stay on track based on our idea workflow 18:34:43
 
alexanderW 18:34:55
yes	

mirek2 18:34:58
call for proposals ends with next week's IRC chat
ok, thanks 18:35:14
 
Android272 18:36:02
can we start	

mirek2 18:36:13
let's talk about the idea workflow
start what? 18:36:16
 
astron247 18:36:17
okay...	

mirek2 18:36:52
On the color handling page
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Color_handling 18:36:53
 
Android272 18:36:55
talking about the remote or this workflow idea thing or what ever	

mirek2 18:37:17
whoops
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Color_Handling 18:37:18
 
alexanderW 18:37:47
I added some points to the tables	

Android272 18:37:48
I wondered why it was blank	

mirek2 18:38:59
could we go through the open problems one by one?	

Android272 18:39:11
ok	

astron247 18:39:18
amount of colours: im firmly in the 6-clr camp	

mirek2 18:39:25
me too	

alexanderW 18:39:32
I've one question: Why doesn't Impress already use the color picker of Writer?	

astron247 18:39:42
haha.
its just implemented differently. 18:39:54
 
Android272 18:39:59
me too, but can there be more if the user wants them or is this just the standard palette.	

astron247 18:40:14
winfried attacked part of that problem, but he was stuck at some point	

alexanderW 18:40:40
So one implementation could be trashed and the other one be improved?	

astron247 18:41:00
also, when you insert certain sorts of objects into writer you get fill style combo boxes like in impress
yes, one needs to go. 18:41:07
 
mirek2 18:41:24
 great	

astron247 18:41:34
not so much	

mirek2 18:42:01
as in, it will be a pain to code?	

alexanderW 18:42:02
I'd vote for fewer colors in the default palette and a second palette with a 'rainbow' of colors	

Android272 18:43:08
I think there should be many palettes	

astron247 18:43:08
@mirek: pain... cant say, for beginners, probably	

mirek2 18:43:46
how do palette files handle rows/columns?
do they specify them? 18:43:51
btw, I myself would be against a palette with a rainbow of colors 18:44:12
 
Android272 18:44:16
is the number of columns for the standard palette or for all? are the users stuck with only what we allow?  	

mirek2 18:44:21
since it's not touch friendly	

astron247 18:44:29
no, they only specify the colours	

mirek2 18:44:35
and I think the color wheel should suffice there	

astron247 18:44:42
number of rows/cols depends on implementation	

mirek2 18:44:45
ok, that makes our life easier then	

astron247 18:44:51
how so?	

mirek2 18:45:04
I believe we should have 6 columns for every palette, then	

astron247 18:45:16
only wrt to the current palette i think	

mirek2 18:45:19
6 fits well, as it's a factor of both 2 and 3	

Android272 18:45:22
how is a rainbow not touch friendly. it would be just like the other palette just with a rainbow.	

alexanderW 18:45:26
 @mirek: We could keep the number of rows/columns and still show a rainbow instead of color schemes	

Android272 18:46:06
yah	

mirek2 18:46:09
instead of color schemes?	

alexanderW 18:46:21
sure	

mirek2 18:46:24
the same number of columns then	

alexanderW 18:46:25
why not?	

Android272 18:46:37
so then what if the use wants more colors? can other palettes use more as well?	

mirek2 18:46:40
I guess I misunderstood the term rainbow then
there would be no limit on the number of rows 18:46:58
with a significant number of rows, the colors would become scrollable 18:47:21
 
Android272 18:47:59
just columns, ok I thought we were talking about limiting the number of colors period.	

mirek2 18:48:22
the default palettes should not be scrollable, though	

alexanderW 18:48:45
indeed	

astron247 18:49:05
indeed[2]	

Android272 18:49:12
can the user modify the default palette 
? 18:49:14
 
astron247 18:49:26
currently? yes	

Android272 18:49:38
not currently	

mirek2 18:49:40
he should be able to, yes	

Android272 18:49:58
ok 	

mirek2 18:50:27
so has the decision been made? 6 columns on every palette?	

Android272 18:50:34
yes	

mirek2 18:51:02
alex, astron?	

astron247 18:51:07
yep	

alexanderW 18:51:16
yes	

mirek2 18:51:25
great
onto the next problem then 18:51:29
palette editing 18:51:38
within a pop-over or a modal dialog? 18:51:48
 
Android272 18:52:07
I like your editor, but I sees what guy was talking about.	

astron247 18:52:07
why not a non-modal dlg?	

alexanderW 18:52:17
If we have a modal dialog, that window could be reused	

Android272 18:52:46
thats true	

mirek2 18:53:01
I don't think that the user would need to edit the palette while working on his document	

Android272 18:53:18
not really	

mirek2 18:53:39
we could add it to the mix, though, if you'd like	

astron247 18:53:46
but they might need a custom colour	

Android272 18:53:50
what?	

astron247 18:54:20
adding a custom colour to the palette seems obvious to me at least
(know, havent done any proposal) 18:54:35
 
mirek2 18:54:42
hold on
which only applied to the document 18:54:59
my proposal included a custom color tab 18:54:59
I mean, just to the selected object 18:55:22
the color wouldn't be saved anywhere, except it would appear in the Document palette 18:55:38
 
astron247 18:55:40
yes, but you might want it on another object too
maybe its even the company color and you want to save it 18:56:04
 
mirek2 18:56:05
if you wanted it on another object within the document, you would use the Document colors palette
If you wanted to export all your document colors, you could from a non-modal dialog 18:56:26
 
astron247 18:56:44
using custom c. first, then adding it to the palette would seem more likely to me.
clearly... im missing something right now. 18:58:05
ill look at your proposal again.. 18:58:15
 
mirek2 18:58:48
how about having an "Add to palette" button in the "Custom color" section?
which would allow you to pick a palette to add a color to 18:59:12
 
Android272 18:59:18
thats good	

mirek2 18:59:27
one of the choices could be "new palette" for quick palette creation	

astron247 18:59:38
how about being able to drag colors from "recent" to the actual palette?
(additionally, i guess 19:00:05
) 19:00:07
 
mirek2 19:00:16
seems pretty unintuitive
only because no other color picker does it 19:00:25
 
Android272 19:00:27
would the "new palette" option bring up the color editor dialog 	

mirek2 19:00:33
also a bit accident-prone...	

astron247 19:00:38
right	

mirek2 19:00:46
but I wouldn't mind, I guess
how would it work with touch, though? 19:00:55
long-tap to select, then drag? 19:01:03
 
alexanderW 19:01:16
Yeah	

astron247 19:01:17
why long tap?	

alexanderW 19:01:44
One might drag a color by accident	

mirek2 19:01:48
just dragging means scrolling on a touch device, simply tapping would choose the color	

astron247 19:01:59
ohkay
i see 19:02:06
 
mirek2 19:02:22
yeah, I also think it might cause more accidents than good
I believe palette customization is a pretty rare thing in itself... 19:02:46
 
Android272 19:03:02
so would the "new palette" option bring up the color editor dialog?	

mirek2 19:03:35
the one offered after clicking the "Add to palette" button?
the "Add to palette" button would launch a drop-down menu offering a choice of all the palettes available plus a "New palette" option 19:04:50
clicking that would let the user name the palette 19:05:11
either within the drop-down itself or within a dialog, whatever's feasible 19:05:30
 
Android272 19:05:38
yes and would the also be able to change all other colors in that palette?	

mirek2 19:05:55
and then the pop-over would show the new palette, along with the one color that was added
separately, within a dialog 19:06:23
(that's not my original proposal, but I like the idea the most now) 19:06:34
 
alexanderW 19:06:40
Deleting a color would work how?	

mirek2 19:06:55
again, within the dialog	

alexanderW 19:07:12
ok	

mirek2 19:07:15
you've seen this mockup
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:C-select.png 19:07:16
 
astron247 19:07:24
@mirek: another question: what does the X button on your proposals?	

Android272 19:07:24
ok then so we have decided to make Editing palettes in a popover and dialog?	

mirek2 19:07:26
something similar, just within a dialo
@astron: it means "no color" 19:07:53
in my mockups, it's the icon that goes along with "Automatic" 19:08:01
of course, under text color, it would show black 19:08:15
since that's the automatic color 19:08:21
 
astron247 19:08:23
okay... i think the choice of an x might be debatable	

Android272 19:08:27
can we do that currently? if not then why would you want it?
or close 19:08:52
 
mirek2 19:09:06
inkscape uses a similar icon
what would you propose? 19:09:06
 
astron247 19:09:39
so, theres the choice of a checkerboard pattern, or nothing (as it is today)	

mirek2 19:09:42
I really couldn't think of a better symbol for "no color"
the checkerboard pattern could be confusing 19:09:59
especially if there was no text label next to the icon 19:10:11
like https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:C-grad.png 19:10:21
 
astron247 19:10:25
less so than an X button that doesn't close anything	

mirek2 19:10:52
ok, then I guess no color is best...	

astron247 19:11:20
maybe a single thin / would work?
but from corner to corner 19:11:30
 
mirek2 19:11:48
alright
we'll experiment with that later 19:11:58
 
Android272 19:12:05
that is use in other programs 	

mirek2 19:12:12
back to the dialog problem
I've added a non-modal entry to the wiki 19:13:14
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Color_Handling#Editing_palettes 19:13:15
I suppose the size of the non-modal dialog would resemble that of inkscape non-modal dialogs 19:13:54
or Navigator, for example 19:14:03
astron? 19:14:46
 
Android272 19:15:00
couldent it bring you to the options menu we currently have?	

astron247 19:15:07
oh please no	

Android272 19:15:09
just change it as well.	

astron247 19:15:16
@mirek: thanks!	

Android272 19:15:20
I agree it sucks	

alexanderW 19:15:22
That would be quite overwhelming	

mirek2 19:15:48
	

astron247 19:15:52
so, one of the things thats bothering me is that colors doesnt really even belong into the options	

mirek2 19:16:05
I agree	

Android272 19:16:16
ok just wondering	

mirek2 19:16:44
am I right about the size of the dialog, though, Astron?	

astron247 19:17:13
well, probably, just, i would still add a close button	

mirek2 19:17:43
of course	

Android272 19:17:49
what size? when did you ask about the size of it?	

astron247 19:18:06
a minute ago	

Android272 19:18:13
oh	

mirek2 19:18:31
could you clue us in about the layout of it?
could it be docked to the side? 19:18:38
would it be horizontal or vertical? 19:18:46
actually, you know what, since this whiteboard is not a priority 19:19:15
how about we just skip the issue for now 19:19:45
 
astron247 19:20:07
sorry. dockable wouldnt really fit libo right now...
but okay... move on 19:20:13
 
mirek2 19:20:20
Astron, if you'd like, you can work on a mockup for the dialog in the meantime	

astron247 19:20:35
ill see, no promises	

mirek2 19:20:36
once GSoC is done, we'll revisit the page
right now, we're just testing the workflow 19:20:45
 
astron247 19:20:49
right.	

alexanderW 19:21:11
a bit off-topic: Does anyone know whether such dialogues could be written in native gtk, for example?	

astron247 19:21:30
caolan is working on making it possible to do dlgs in glade	

alexanderW 19:21:44
There was a GSoc project about converting them to glade files, right?	

astron247 19:22:09
i talked to björn btw, and he doesnt really see any way to fit working on colours in his schedule right now	

mirek2 19:22:12
hold on -- there's a possibility LibreOffice could include GTK+ elements in the future?
or am I misreading what you said? 19:22:43
 
astron247 19:22:49
no, as far as i understood were either translating glade ui files or were abel to read them in
-el+le 19:22:58
 
mirek2 19:23:09
so translating GTK+ into VCL?	

alexanderW 19:23:13
Would that still involve VCL	

astron247 19:23:20
its still all vcl
the difference is that we get a graphical ui designer and "intelliegent" xml files 19:23:46
-e 19:23:49
 
alexanderW 19:23:53
ah	

astron247 19:23:58
"intelligent" = hierarchical	

mirek2 19:24:04
but, theoretically, this would allow new UI elements to be coded in GTK+, just converted afterwards	

astron247 19:24:17
no
(i think) 19:24:27
 
mirek2 19:24:30
no? ah, too bad	

astron247 19:24:37
i dont want to say anything too definite.
best to talk to caoln 19:24:44
+a 19:24:48
 
mirek2 19:24:55
I was hoping that we could slowly move to GTK+ without really disturbing the codebase	

astron247 19:24:58
or check out his branch	

alexanderW 19:25:09
Yeah, that would be so awesome	

Android272 19:25:34
can we get back to designing?	

mirek2 19:25:59
last problem: document color presentation
I'd prefer to have the colors listed in a separate palette 19:26:17
for the reasons listed on the wiki 19:26:33
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Color_Handling#Presentation_of_document_colors 19:26:33
 
astron247 19:27:38
as a palette its not likely to be seen by users	

mirek2 19:27:40
I'd really like the color picker to be as simple as possible, and putting document colors along with recent colors under the dialog feels like overload	

Android272 19:27:50
ultimately i just want it any where. but I think it would be good to have it under the current palette.	

alexanderW 19:27:58
I'd support putting them in a seperate palette, but one bug report requested easy access to those colors as well	

mirek2 19:28:23
@alex: I don't know if we have any access right now	

alexanderW 19:28:36
probably not	

astron247 19:28:49
we dont, right	

mirek2 19:29:24
so having an access to the palette under a dropdown is, IMHO, easy and discoverable enough	

astron247 19:29:50
having the colours under the popover would make it easier to mix colours from the document and those from the palette
not sure if theres a strong use case for that 19:30:06
 
mirek2 19:30:30
but we already have recent colors, though
the user might want to mix colours from various palettes, not just from the document palette 19:30:53
 
Android272 19:30:56
could we be able to switch out resent and document colors?	

astron247 19:31:04
okay. so would it make sense mash recent and document colours together?	

mirek2 19:31:21
no, I don't think so	

astron247 19:31:30
+to	

mirek2 19:31:40
btw, document colors should also list colors found within the default palette
if they're used, of course 19:31:41
 
astron247 19:31:43
to both? or just to andrews idea?	

mirek2 19:32:00
to both
recent does, in most cases, list document colors 19:32:41
 
Android272 19:32:45
be able to show the document colors instead of the resent colors? or show a left and right arrow to switch between them?
yah but not if the document is old. 19:33:03
 
astron247 19:33:20
@mirek: well, even better, we dont need to list them twice	

mirek2 19:33:25
the problems I see with showing document colors below the pop-over:
1) if the user uses colors from the default palette, the colors will appear once in the default palette and once in the document palette 19:33:49
so there could be a lot of duplication 19:33:57
 
alexanderW 19:34:11
that could be worked-around	

Android272 19:34:20
how?	

astron247 19:34:22
thats true but tbh i dont think we should show them if theyre dupes	

mirek2 19:34:24
2) presentations and drawings, and even some documents, tend to be highly graphical	

alexanderW 19:34:24
by simply exluding those	

mirek2 19:34:48
but what if the user wanted to know which colors he used in the document
or which colors were used in the document, considering he wasn't the author 19:35:05
and wouldn't it be inconsistent if the user exported the document colors palette and it included more colors that he saw? 19:35:40
 
astron247 19:35:59
okay, the last one is the most troubling imho	

mirek2 19:36:20
and wouldn't it surprise the user if the switched palettes using the drop-down menu and suddenly some colors appeared in the "Document colors" section and some disappeared?	

astron247 19:36:49
2 – there are selection markers around the selected colour.
4 – oh wow. 19:36:59
hadnt thought of that 19:37:05
but 4, with a nice animation wouldnt be soo bad 19:38:12
 
mirek2 19:38:16
2 - I meant, if the user wanted to continue with the color palette of the original author, he would need to see all the colors that were used in the document	

astron247 19:38:34
yes.
so? 19:38:37
 
mirek2 19:38:44
the document might have 100+ pages, so going through all the elements to deduce the used colors wouldn't be an option	

Android272 19:38:55
thats what document colors is for.?	

mirek2 19:39:03
it is a use case, yes	

astron247 19:39:42
okay. 100-page documents that also use 100s of colours are probably not the norm
ie we shouldnt actually design for people using 100s of colours 19:40:06
 
Android272 19:40:32
document colors would be contextual so the amount of color would be slimmed down a bit. the text, highlight, shape ect. would all have there own different document colors section.	

mirek2 19:40:38
ok, well, I wouldn't want to go through all the colors on a graphically-intense document with 20 pages
@astron: how many rows do you think the document colors section should have? 19:41:02
 
astron247 19:41:23
hard to say... two to four..?	

mirek2 19:41:37
I mean, a lot of palettes can have about 70 colors
+ a row for recent colors 19:42:02
+ 2-4 rows per document colors 19:42:13
+ scroll buttons (or scroll bars?) 19:43:10
how would you handle scrolling, btw? 19:43:38
 
astron247 19:43:40
obviously, you could show the first twelve document colours, then show a More button that would bring up ... something
so, no scrolling if at all possible 19:43:54
 
mirek2 19:44:06
bring up a dialog?	

alexanderW 19:44:13
simply elongate the popover	

Android272 19:44:23
well guys I think that Im going to go. iv got a place to be and no one is commenting on my questions any way.	

mirek2 19:44:41
which ones?	

Android272 19:44:54
all of them
*most of them 19:45:05
 
astron247 19:45:18
which ones exactly?	

Android272 19:45:25
document colors would be contextual so the amount of color would be slimmed down a bit. the text, highlight, shape ect. would all have there own different document colors section.
be able to show the document colors instead of the resent colors? or show a left and right arrow to switch between them? 19:45:36
could we be able to switch out resent and document colors? 19:45:46
 
alexanderW 19:46:15
what do you mean by switch out?	

Android272 19:46:17
just look through the log when your done and you will see. but bie	

mirek2 19:46:21
I answered no to that, actually	

Android272 19:46:44
to show the document colors instead of the resent colors.	

mirek2 19:47:30
that still doesn't solve the scrolling problem	

astron247 19:47:49
@andrew: btw, i answered your question on the ml regarding cond formatting	

mirek2 19:47:55
let's say that if the pop-over really was to be elongated, the pop-over wouldn't fit onscreen anymore	

Android272 19:47:56
yah but it slaves the document color being under the palette problem.
ok 19:48:19
@astron maybe but not here. anyway iv got to go 19:48:54
Android272 hat sich abgemeldet (Quit: Page closed) 19:48	

mirek2 19:49:01
bye
we need to have some way to scroll colors 19:49:36
just in case a user happens to have a tiny screen or happens to use many colors... 19:50:01
 
alexanderW 19:50:27
We could use a scrollbar like ubuntu uses	

astron247 19:50:27
what, btw is your proposal for how scrollbars should work in palettes?
@alex: we should try to stay as native as possible 19:50:49
so, we have to support both incredibly slim as well as thick scrollbars with the proposal 19:51:11
 
mirek2 19:51:15
what do you think about having one button at the top and one at the bottom?	

astron247 19:51:23
like ms?	

mirek2 19:51:27
menus work similarly	

astron247 19:51:48
ive never liked that too much.	

mirek2 19:51:49
@astron could you provide a screenshot?
me neither, but this would just appear in rare cases 19:52:12
I think it's easier that trying to fit in a scroll bar 19:52:34
what do you think? 19:53:04
 
astron247 19:53:16
http://www.orzeszek.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/word-2010-ffi-ligature.png
see the styles section 19:53:22
but yes, it would be different from what you proposed 19:53:40
 
mirek2 19:54:26
if the buttons were vertical like in MS Office, where would they be?
how about this: a single row for both of the buttons 19:54:54
would make navigating easier 19:55:07
the user wouldn't have to constantly go to the bottom and the top for getting up or down 19:55:22
the buttons would be horizontal, btw 19:55:41
 
astron247 19:55:54
ascii mockup:
A        |        V 19:55:56
O O O O O O 19:55:58
 
mirek2 19:56:09
yes
19:56:13
what do you imagine to be the use cases for document colors? 19:56:30
 
astron247 19:56:41
it would certainly minimise mouse travel	

mirek2 19:56:49
right	

astron247 19:56:53
ok document colours...
not wanting to add colours to palette; editing so elses doc 19:57:20
 
alexanderW 19:57:20
Mostly if one got a document created without LO or with custom colors and one needs to reuse those colors	

mirek2 19:58:33
I think most of the use cases in which it would be advantageous to put it under the default palette are covered with the "Recent colors" section
how about saving these 6 colors with the document? 19:59:22
if you're editing someone else's doc and want to reuse the colors he used, you should be able to see all the colors he used, not just those that aren't within your palette 19:59:35
 
astron247 20:00:30
that sounds like an awful file format hack
but i like the proposal in general 20:00:40
 
mirek2 20:00:46
 ok
how about showing the last 6 document colors in the "Recent colors" section if there are no recent colors yet? 20:01:34
and putting document colors in a separate section 20:01:44
we could even expand recent colors to 2 row, 20:01:56
rows 20:01:59
if you don't think 6 colors is enough 20:02:10
 
astron247 20:03:03
so, to conclude:
document colours = own palette, 20:03:05
recent colours = up to twelve, contains some document colurs? 20:03:07
sound good 20:03:09
 
mirek2 20:03:18
sounds great	

astron247 20:03:47
alex?	

alexanderW 20:03:58
What are the last 6 document colors?	

astron247 20:04:11
well thats a good question	

alexanderW 20:04:13
If I open a document from someone else	

mirek2 20:04:35
the document colors would be read from top to bottom of the document, I presume
so the last 6 colors would be ones on the last few pages 20:04:48
 
astron247 20:04:55
given that the file format probably doesnt support it, we want either the most used colours or as mirek said	

mirek2 20:05:04
where they're likely to have been most recently used	
android272 hat den Raum betreten 20:05	

mirek2 20:05:24
the most used colors sounds good too	

android272 20:05:27
I guess I do not have to leave	

mirek2 20:05:36
hi again	

alexanderW 20:05:37
Good
hi 20:05:41
 
astron247 20:05:51
but would be too processing intense
hi 20:05:53
 
mirek2 20:06:08
alright, then just the last-used colors	

android272 20:06:12
what are we talking about now?	

astron247 20:06:18
still colours	

android272 20:06:26
what about them	

astron247 20:06:28
(recently used ones)	

android272 20:06:35
oh	

mirek2 20:07:08
document colors would appear in their own palette, recent colors would list the 12 last-used document colors if there were no recent colors to list yet	

android272 20:07:26
what does any one think about the recently used colors being kept across sessions? 	

alexanderW 20:07:42
Would make sense	

mirek2 20:08:33
you mean: if I opened a separate presentation, I would get the same recent colors as I had when working on my document?	

astron247 20:09:13
makes sense in some environments, not so much in others	

android272 20:09:17
if i make a doc, then close it then make a new one the colors I used from the first would still be there.	

mirek2 20:09:42
I agree with astron	

astron247 20:09:49
but basically, in the environments where it makes sense, it might make more sense to have a new palette	

android272 20:09:53
ok	

astron247 20:10:04
(= corporate colours is what i think of=
-0+) 20:10:08
 
mirek2 20:10:10
I agree
so no, then? 20:10:16
 
alexanderW 20:10:27
si	

astron247 20:10:29
~no...	

mirek2 20:10:33
alex?	

android272 20:11:12
@astron what about corporate colors	

astron247 20:11:29
... makes sense to have them as a palette.	

android272 20:11:43
oook	

astron247 20:12:06
did i miss something?	

mirek2 20:12:16
I don't think so	

alexanderW 20:12:32
sorry, that was my annying brother	
Getrennt 20:13	
Verbunden 20:13	

mirek2 20:13:51
ok	

astron247 20:14:14
ok, another problem right now: how to deal with "alternate" fills.	

mirek2 20:14:31
ok	

android272 20:14:36
at least its there, I had to argue why it should be there for a while.	

astron247 20:14:38
gradients (linear and radial), ...
hatchings 20:14:55
 
mirek2 20:14:56
does LibreOffice support radial gradients?	

astron247 20:15:12
it does. you can ever position their centre freely	

android272 20:15:16
do they support linear?	

astron247 20:15:23
yes
albeit, gradients dont seem to export well 20:15:38
 
alexanderW 20:15:49
not even to odf?	

astron247 20:16:12
odf is just saving, not exporting. what i mean is mso formats, pdf etc.	

mirek2 20:16:12
I'll stick to my proposal
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:C-grad.png 20:16:14
just without the pencil icon for editing 20:16:26
and with an icon for radial gradients next to the linear gradient icon 20:16:50
 
astron247 20:17:13
which should open the all-encompassing dialogue box for colours?	

android272 20:17:39
I really like that. do you click the circles and then the color you want?	

astron247 20:17:52
i personally dont think hatchings or radial gradients or bg images should have a place in our /main/ ui at all and should be better hidden.
thus, the all-encompassing colour dialogue actually sounds like a sane idea to me 20:18:27
 
mirek2 20:18:33
no, it wouldn't open the dialog for colors
it would simply be this 20:18:38
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:C-grad.png 20:18:39
the slider would be used to edit the gradient 20:18:51
 
astron247 20:19:01
then were losing features	

mirek2 20:19:09
what features?	

astron247 20:19:22
positioning the radial gradient for instance.
gradient palettes 20:19:29
 
mirek2 20:19:35
that would be done on the shape itself
we have that feature? 20:19:44
 
astron247 20:19:50
yes.	

alexanderW 20:19:53
Not yet I think
Moving the gradient? 20:20:06
 
mirek2 20:20:20
I see that we do	

astron247 20:20:23
take a look at impress and play around with gradients hatchings etc.	

mirek2 20:20:54
hm...	

astron247 20:21:13
@alex: moving the gradient is possible inside the Area dialogue	

alexanderW 20:21:51
Ah, I meant actually editing within the shape, like in Inkscape	

mirek2 20:22:42
how about adding a drop-down menu to the gradient section too?
the one on https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:C-grad.png would be the "Custom gradient" section 20:23:05
what do you think? 20:23:53
 
alexanderW 20:23:55
two dropdown boxes?	

mirek2 20:24:10
one for gradient palettes, one for color palettes
at least it's being consistent 20:24:15
alternatively, the user could be able to edit the colors inline 20:24:43
gradient handles would be shown as overlay on the shape 20:25:02
 
alexanderW 20:25:11
gradient palette would contain linear, radial etc?	

astron247 20:25:54
just so you dont misunderstand me: im not against keeping things simple up front, but theres a whole slew of long-tail use cases we need to keep	

mirek2 20:26:23
clicking a handle would show a toolbar with a color picker for the handle, which would be used to pick a single color
@astron: I understand 20:26:32
I'd have to rethink this 20:26:43
what about using https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:C-grad.png and when no node is selected, the dialog would show the gradient palette? 20:27:29
 
astron247 20:27:40
the gradient toolbar idea sounds good.	

mirek2 20:28:08
and the second idea?
because I like that one better 20:28:13
20:28:16
 
astron247 20:28:48
i dont think i understand it yet	

mirek2 20:29:36
by default, the gradient section would show the gradient palette
there would only be one gradient palette, which is the current behavior today 20:29:49
 
astron247 20:30:06
when theres a gradient applied... it would show the gradient editor?	

mirek2 20:30:27
now I don't understand you...	

astron247 20:30:37
ok, just explain	

alexanderW 20:30:45
within the popover or as a seperate window?	

mirek2 20:30:54
within the popover
above the gradient palette would be a "custom gradient" button which would span a whole row 20:31:08
clicking on this button would launch something like this 20:31:20
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:C-grad.png 20:31:24
just with a back button 20:31:28
 
astron247 20:31:29
okay	

alexanderW 20:31:40
ok	

mirek2 20:31:44
and a button to add the gradient to the palette
both of which would be above the gradient preview 20:32:15
(by "gradient preview", I mean that line with the + and - buttons and the gradient nodes) 20:33:03
have I explained it clrealy enough? 20:33:11
clearly 20:33:28
anyone? 20:34:21
 
alexanderW 20:34:23
Why have a button to activate this?
Would we have predefined gradients? 20:34:59
 
astron247 20:35:15
i guess id have to see it, sorry	

alexanderW 20:35:26
I think these would be too manny possible combinations	

mirek2 20:35:28
alright, I'll produce a mockup someday
maybe after the GSoC projects are done, probably not sooner 20:35:55
 
astron247 20:36:11
btw i just noticed we also have square, rectangular and ellipsoid gradients
20:36:15
 
mirek2 20:36:39

I'll think about it 20:36:52
Ellipsoid and radial could be merged, I believe 20:37:08
so could square and rectangular 20:37:15
 
astron247 20:37:25
sure, with better ui
(like in inkscape 20:37:31
) 20:37:33
 
alexanderW 20:37:41
Wait a sec, I'll just create a mockup	

mirek2 20:37:45
exactly
alright 20:37:55
 
astron247 20:38:58
i wonder if anyone has ever used the "transpancy" page ... that seems unnecessary at least
+re 20:39:07
 
mirek2 20:40:10
btw, andrew mentioned using different document colors based on the object in question
@astron: I haven't noticed it, to be honest 20:40:39
 
android272 20:40:51
hay some one was listening 	

astron247 20:41:11
how would it work?	
android272 hat sich abgemeldet (Quit: Page closed) 20:41	

mirek2 20:41:52
	

astron247 20:42:05
was that offensive..?	

mirek2 20:42:59
no, I think it was a computer problem or something
if I understood Andrew correctly, the Document colors palette would present different colors based on the object and color picker in question 20:43:39
i.e. text highlight would present one different from text color 20:43:51
and shape fill would have one different from table cell fill 20:44:29
I personally would prefer to have one "Document colors" palette per document 20:44:49
 
astron247 20:45:04
makes some sense... especially to limit the number of selections ... but then, users might want to
use the same colours for different objects 20:45:06
 
alexanderW 20:45:12
http://ubuntuone.com/1wxLWeHbV6jqd0Pd7WJ9Dw
One can choose a kind of gradient and the palette 20:45:48
 
mirek2 20:46:03
and if we saw that Andrew's idea would be beneficial, then we could additionally have a separate palette for each object that would only show up when that object type was selected
i.e. selecting a table would give the user access to "Table colors", selecting a shape to "Shape colors", etc. 20:46:27
 
alexanderW 20:47:04
The gradient can be moved and the single stops can be moved in the popover and live in the shape	

mirek2 20:47:18
it's missing the gradient palette, though
open up Impress or Draw and see what it looks like 20:47:32
 
astron247 20:47:47
right, also, wouldnt the palette close when moving one of the nodes?
(in the object itself= 20:48:16
 
mirek2 20:48:44
I think it would
it works the same way in Fireworks, from what I remember 20:48:53
 
alexanderW 20:49:13
@astron: Yes	

mirek2 20:49:17
the idea is that moving a stop on the shape is done separately from work in the popover
you're not meant to work with both at the same time 20:49:40
 
alexanderW 20:49:51
One could also move the nodes in the popover, but one doesn't need the popover to move and scale the gradient	

astron247 20:50:35
i see...	

mirek2 20:51:17
@alex: you know what I mean by the gradient palette, right?	

alexanderW 20:51:40
@mirek: To select different gradients?	

mirek2 20:52:00
right, different predefined gradients
have you forgotten to include it or is it somewhere there and I'm just not finding it? 20:52:20
 
alexanderW 20:52:27
Forgot it	

mirek2 20:52:34
perhaps under the alexanderW "Radial"/"Linear" dropdown?
oh, ok 20:52:36
 
alexanderW 20:52:39
3 Drop-down menus seems to be a bit too much	

mirek2 20:52:47
I agree	

alexanderW 20:52:49
we could have icons for the kind of gradient	

mirek2 20:53:05
I agree	

astron247 20:53:22
i _think_ the question is if radial and square gradients are really importnat enough to have them in our palette popover	

mirek2 20:54:02
then we could have a toolbar with all the gradient types and a button that would show the gradient palette
which mixes the gradient types 20:54:15
@astron: I would list the elliptical and rectangular gradients 20:54:33
and figure out a way to easily make square and circular gradients from those 20:54:56
+ the linear gradient, of course 20:55:08
 
astron247 20:55:51
okay.	

mirek2 20:56:33
are we agreed on this?
a toolbar with: custom linear gradient, custom elliptical gradient, custom rectangular gradient, and gradient palette (showing a mix of all of the above) 20:57:10
 
astron247 20:57:26
i guess...
anyway, i think ill leave now... 20:57:58
 
mirek2 20:58:05
alright
I think we discussed everything 20:58:13
 
astron247 20:58:26
okay, then, bye.	

mirek2 20:58:31
bye	
astron247 hat den Raum verlassen 20:58	

mirek2 20:58:51
alex, is there anything you want to discuss?	

alexanderW 20:59:01
I don't think so
I just updated that sketch 20:59:08
So will you adapt your mocjup to those suggestions 20:59:28
? 20:59:30
 
mirek2 20:59:45
Why the gradient dropdown?
what does it do? 20:59:48
I won't have time these coming weeks 21:00:37
 
alexanderW 21:00:43
Ah
Weren't you suggesting adding that 21:00:54
 
mirek2 21:00:57
have exams coming up
so after that's all over 21:00:57
I suggested having a "gradient palette" button 21:01:16
 
alexanderW 21:01:29
A mode button?	

mirek2 21:01:48
it would show the gradient palettes
in any case, let's call it a day and leave color handling for another time 21:03:32
 
alexanderW 21:03:47
alright	

mirek2 21:04:10
should I put the meeting log up?
or do you want to? 21:04:25
 
alexanderW 21:05:06
Yeah, I'm not too sure how to do it besides copy-pasting	

mirek2 21:05:16
me neither
I think there's nothing more to it 21:05:24
 
alexanderW 21:05:57
I'll do so
Ok, bye then 21:06:07
 
mirek2 21:06:11
alright
alright, bye 21:06:27