Design/Meetings/2012-12-01

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Unterhaltung mit #libreoffice-design

(16:59:13) Modus ( ns ) von gibson.freenode.net
(17:00:49) alexander [~alexander@d53623f5.access.ecotel.net] hat den Raum betreten.
(17:00:53) alexander hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Client Quit).
(17:03:29) alexanderW_ [d53623f5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.54.35.245] hat den Raum betreten.
(17:06:28) Medieval [c1280ada@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.40.10.218] hat den Raum betreten.
(17:06:34) alexanderW: Hi
(17:06:34) Medieval: hi
(17:07:49) alexanderW: Astron will not come, I hope Mirek makes it
(17:08:22) mirek2 [59b0ae7b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.176.174.123] hat den Raum betreten.
(17:08:50) mirek2: hi everyone
(17:09:40) Medieval: hi
(17:10:16) alexanderW: hi
(17:10:19) mirek2: if you're not in the middle of a topic, perhaps we should begin with the color picker
(17:10:35) alexanderW: sure
(17:10:38) mirek2: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Color Picker
(17:11:03) mirek2: alright
(17:11:43) mirek2: I have second thoughts about the scroll bar choice we made
(17:12:04) alexanderW: yes?
(17:12:07) mirek2: perhaps proposal 4 would be best, as it wouldn't alter the size of the pop-up
(17:12:29) mirek2: and I don't expect there to be many categories where scrolling is necessary
(17:13:12) mirek2: thoughts?
(17:13:48) Medieval hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
(17:13:48) alexanderW_ hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
(17:14:03) alexanderW: Yeah, our standard palette wouldn't need scrolling and usually one doesn't use that many colors in a document
(17:14:25) mirek2: so you'd be ok with proposal 4?
(17:14:36) alexanderW: is that 'scroll bar' on the right only an indicator?
(17:14:42) mirek2: yes
(17:14:45) mirek2: position indicator
(17:14:57) mirek2: similar in function to that on touch devices
(17:15:03) medieval [c1280ada@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.40.10.218] hat den Raum betreten.
(17:15:25) alexanderW: I'm fine with that
(17:15:44) mirek2: ok
(17:15:55) mirek2: @medieval, what do you think?
(17:16:24) Android272 [4bb965d7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.185.101.215] hat den Raum betreten.
(17:16:32) medieval: I was dissconnected, about what?'
(17:16:51) alexanderW: not having an actual scroll bar, but two buttons
(17:16:52) mirek2: scroll bar proposal 4
(17:16:59) medieval: ok with me
(17:17:19) mirek2: cool
(17:17:57) medieval: scrollabe also via mouse wheel?
(17:18:02) mirek2: of course
(17:18:20) mirek2: what do you think about the conversation between and manas on the list?
(17:18:24) Android272: Hello every budy its been a long time but im back. illl write an email to explain things,
(17:18:25) Android272: so fill me in as to what we are talking about here,
(17:18:37) mirek2: color picker
(17:18:43) alexanderW: Hi
(17:18:48) mirek2: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Color_Picker
(17:19:24) Android272: ok sweet it has changed a bit since I left
(17:19:25) alexanderW: Deciding on details of the final final design
(17:19:43) alexanderW: It should be implemented incre,entally
(17:20:34) Android272: I saw something about a scroll bar?
(17:21:11) mirek2: we've picked proposal 4 for now, but the conversation is still open
(17:22:02) Android272: which is the first or the sencond?
(17:22:30) mirek2: C-picker.png
(17:22:34) Android272: pickture... what should I be looking at
(17:22:43) mirek2: the one with the arrows
(17:23:19) mirek2: the third one can be ruled out right away, as it would only work with a Unity-like scrollbar
(17:23:41) mirek2: the tablets in the first are squeezed when there's need for a scroll bar
(17:24:01) mirek2: the second just always has whitespace on the right in case a scroll bar is needed
(17:24:35) mirek2: the fourth uses up/down arrows for navigation a thin position indicator
(17:24:54) mirek2: (all could, of course, be scrolled with a wheel or on a touchpad)
(17:26:13) Android272: so this is for the desktop and tables, changing it just a bit.
(17:27:01) mirek2: anyway, before you came, I asked for comment on Manas's proposals: Color_picker_scroll.png
(17:28:13) mirek2: yes, it's designed for both touch and mouse input
(17:28:20) Android272: would you be able to use the scroll wheel? I like the arrows for those who don't use the wheel, but someone like me would never use them
(17:28:31) mirek2: yes
(17:29:36) Android272: then you could use the arrow keys as well. then what is the question.
(17:30:46) mirek2: we were deciding which one of the scroll bar proposals to go with
(17:32:18) mirek2: I picked proposal 4, alex and medieval nodded along, but of course the choice is changeable
(17:32:38) mirek2: anyway, everyone, what do you think about Manas's ideas Color_picker_scroll.png?
(17:33:12) mirek2: (there was no response on the mailing list, and I'd hate to impose my own ideas when there's a difference of opinion)
(17:33:40) medieval: I think let go with number 4
(17:35:41) mirek2: about imposing my own ideas: that was mostly meant in relation to my stance on Manas's ideas
(17:35:55) mirek2: I'd really like a bit more input on them
(17:35:59) Android272: I like the scroll bar more. its more triditional and you have to move the mouse a lot to move up and down the page
(17:37:12) alexanderW: Issues with that solution are the extra space needed
(17:37:35) mirek2: which would make the popover look uneven
(17:37:54) alexanderW: Either we always have a blank area on the right or the color squares would need to be resized
(17:38:51) Android272: why is that?
(17:40:02) Android272: what happend to it only having 5 colums of colors?
(17:40:30) alexanderW: Well, if we go with the Tango palette, 6 per row is preferable
(17:41:00) Android272: Why?
(17:41:07) mirek2_ [59b0ae7b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.176.174.123] hat den Raum betreten.
(17:41:12) mirek2_: to fit a scrollbar in, the width of the popover would have to change (which we don't want to do, because clickable targets would move) or there would need to be a persistent whitespace
(17:41:43) mirek2 hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
(17:41:53) Android272: also I thought that there would be many different palettes to chose from?
(17:42:40) alexanderW: That would be implemented later on
(17:43:25) Android272: oh
(17:43:55) mirek2 [59b0ae7b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.176.174.123] hat den Raum betreten.
(17:44:03) mirek2: palette support will come eventually
(17:44:58) mirek2: anyway, about Color_picker_scroll.png
(17:45:26) mirek2: could you please read the thread on the mailing list that accompanied this proposal and then tell me who you side with?
(17:45:28) mirek2_ hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
(17:46:17) mirek2: (I'd like to get the tentative design finished up and looked at by our G followers, so we would be ready for implementation)
(17:49:13) mirek2: anyone?
(17:49:29) Android272: how long ago was this email sent and what was the subject?
(17:49:37) medieval: As I said am OK with 4
(17:51:04) mirek2: "Scrollbars in popovers"
(17:51:18) medieval: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Scrollbars-in-popovers-td4020753.html
(17:51:51) mirek2: however, Manas's proposal also involves a different representation of "Automatic"/"None" and a different highlight style
(17:52:11) Android272: why is there so much white space to the very far left of the color picker? is it for more room for longer named palettes?
(17:52:38) mirek2: the names were actually longer originally
(17:52:50) mirek2: I'll fix the spacing, don't worry
(17:53:44) Android272: kk
(17:53:45) alexanderW: that might be easier to hit
(17:54:18) alexanderW: the bigger scroll buttoins as well as the automatic box
(17:55:07) mirek2: the scroll buttons are only wider, which, according to Fitts's law, only makes a difference when moving horizontally
(17:55:51) mirek2: so it's irrelevant in this case, as the user will be within the confines of the category, thus moving the mouse vertically
(17:56:03) Android272: I do like the bigger automatic box. the other way is just a big wast of space.
(17:56:16) mirek2: on the contrary -- according to Higgs's law, the closer the two buttons are the faster one can target them
(17:56:25) mirek2: so it makes more sense to have them side by side
(17:56:50) mirek2: (the same reasoning behind the scrollbar buttons above each other in Mac OS)
(17:57:12) mirek2: about the Automatic box, please see my comments in the thread
(17:57:38) mirek2: also, the actual clickable area wouldn't change
(17:58:06) mirek2: (the whole automatic row would be clickable in both proposals)
(17:59:01) mirek2: my concerns in a nutshell:
(17:59:28) Android272: the "color preview" is the box at the bottom of the page that tells the color?
(17:59:39) mirek2: yes
(18:00:00) alexanderW: ok, so a bigger automatic color box, and keep the rest of your proposal?
(18:01:15) mirek2: if you all agree for a bigger automatic color box, then we need to figure out what to do in case "None" is selected
(18:02:01) Android272: have a bit box with none in it...?
(18:02:17) mirek2: I mean, what background color to use
(18:02:26) mirek2: since none != white
(18:02:32) Android272: white
(18:02:36) alexanderW: usually one has a grey and white cherboard texture
(18:02:53) alexanderW: *checkerboard
(18:03:14) Android272: some may get that but I do think the cross through or the x is much better indicator of that.
(18:03:27) mirek2: that would make the label harder to read, though
(18:03:39) Android272: that too
(18:04:08) mirek2: Android272: I agree, but a cross-through isn't well-suited as a backdrop
(18:04:35) alexanderW: a very faint checkerboard?
(18:05:23) mirek2: could you mock it up, perhaps?
(18:06:16) alexanderW: yes
(18:06:23) mirek2: great :)
(18:07:58) Android272 hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
(18:10:34) mirek2: I see "requested CTCP DCC from mirek2: SEND "checker.png" 3577095157 59901 1608"
(18:10:49) mirek2: I'm on the web client
(18:10:54) alexanderW: ah, ok
(18:11:26) android272 [4bb965d7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.185.101.215] hat den Raum betreten.
(18:11:30) android272: did i miss anythig
(18:11:57) alexanderW: http://ubuntuone.com/0OsPTzYt4xieIO093pox0h
(18:12:06) alexanderW: no
(18:12:22) mirek2: tbh, I think that's very hard to read
(18:12:50) mirek2: (kind of gives me a headache)
(18:13:13) alexanderW: better now?
(18:13:52) android272: I do like it better lighter.
(18:13:59) mirek2: much better, though I'd still prefer for the text and the preview to be separate
(18:14:14) mirek2: (especially as "None" will be the default in many cases)
(18:14:28) android272: could you put one with a / and one with a x beside them to see what that would look like? plez
(18:15:03) mirek2: nevertheless, if you all agree a full-width tile would be best, then full-width tile it is
(18:15:15) android272: I like it that way
(18:16:15) android272: also I do like the highlighting of the selected color palette. but I agree with Mirek that it should be flat.
(18:18:07) alexanderW: updated
(18:18:53) mirek2: the checkerboard one is universal, so let's go with that
(18:19:13) android272: thats not what I meant but it looks good. I meant a red x and / like most programs do.
(18:19:16) mirek2: but maybe still even a bit lighter
(18:19:17) android272: sorry
(18:19:24) alexanderW: ah
(18:21:11) android272: should we decide here or let the mailing list decide what "none" button they like?
(18:21:32) mirek2: we should decide
(18:21:51) alexanderW: i changed them to red / or x
(18:21:52) mirek2: with the mailing list's input always being considered if there is any
(18:22:19) alexanderW: Well, I'd go with the more or less universal checkerboard
(18:22:40) android272: yah lets go with the checker board.
(18:22:49) mirek2: alright
(18:23:05) mirek2: I'll incorporate it all into the tentative design
(18:23:26) mirek2: and then I'll ask for feedback on Google
(18:23:46) android272: copy
(18:24:20) mirek2: I guess we can skip the gallery art for now -- I'd like astron to be here for that
(18:25:11) android272: ok
(18:25:43) alexanderW: styles?
(18:25:48) mirek2: sure
(18:26:26) android272: real quick is the gallery art like clip art?
(18:26:34) alexanderW: jes
(18:26:36) alexanderW: yes
(18:26:42) alexanderW: One suggestion from the ML
(18:26:42) alexanderW: Title
(18:26:42) alexanderW: Subtitle
(18:26:42) alexanderW: Headline 1
(18:26:42) alexanderW: Headline 2
(18:26:47) alexanderW: Headline 3
(18:26:56) alexanderW: Text Body
(18:27:09) alexanderW: Those are paragraph styles
(18:27:21) alexanderW: Somebody suggested to add the Quotation char style
(18:27:56) mirek2: I would leave character styles out of it for now
(18:28:11) android272: so what styles are we talking about?
(18:28:17) mirek2: until we have some sort of indication of what style applies to what
(18:28:23) mirek2: android272: style dropdown
(18:28:31) android272: oh ok
(18:28:57) alexanderW: WHich has previews now
(18:29:33) alexanderW: So would you be okay with that selection, omitting Quotation?
(18:31:14) android272: it just puts quotes around things? I think we can omit it.
(18:31:18) mirek2: if possible, it'd be great if we could only show the (hierarchically) bottom-most heading used the next one up
(18:31:36) mirek2: that's badly worded
(18:31:48) mirek2: I mean, show only "Heading 1" if no heading is used
(18:32:02) alexanderW: android: It aplies the 'Quotation' character style
(18:32:07) mirek2: show "Heading 4" if Heading 1, 2, and 3 are used
(18:32:15) alexanderW: it doesn't add quote marks
(18:32:40) android272: I like that... but then again im a random writer and may have different sections written at different times.
(18:33:31) android272: oh ok alex
(18:33:34) alexanderW: well, that would require code
(18:34:03) alexanderW: I think atm, it was only about the default selection, not the logic
(18:34:17) android272: it would save so much room. we have like 9 different headings.
(18:34:18) mirek2: alexanderW: would it be hard to code, though?
(18:34:34) alexanderW: I guess not
(18:34:46) mirek2: in any case, there's no harm in suggesting it
(18:34:47) alexanderW: there's already code for showing the styles in use
(18:35:17) android272: then it should not be too hard to add this
(18:35:18) alexanderW: that could be copied and adapted to only look for heading styles
(18:35:33) mirek2: it doesn't need to be just heading styles
(18:35:56) mirek2: any kind of style hierarchy that appears in the dropdown
(18:36:13) android272: what else?
(18:36:29) mirek2: (yes, right now it's just styles, but it's better to not hardcode it)
(18:36:49) mirek2: also, would everyone agree to having a drop-down menu associated with every style, � la Google Docs?
(18:36:52) mirek2: http://gappstips.com/userfiles/attachments/news/49/styles.jpg?width=1050&height=750&nf=trans
(18:37:19) android272: yes
(18:37:21) mirek2: this would make it much easier to edit styles
(18:37:37) alexanderW: yes
(18:37:37) android272: I really like what google did
(18:38:06) mirek2: in addition to "Change style based on selection", we could add "Change style..." for the edit dialog
(18:38:47) android272: do we not have a whiteboard for this?
(18:39:29) mirek2: do we need one?
(18:39:37) mirek2: the idea is straightforward
(18:39:42) mirek2: if we all agree, that is
(18:39:50) alexanderW: which edit dialog?
(18:40:06) android272: I agree but iv been looking for one
(18:40:10) mirek2: the one for editing styles
(18:40:34) alexanderW: There's already Modify... in the context menu
(18:41:52) mirek2: I'm talking about a possible implementation of split buttons for the style dropdown
(18:41:53) mirek2: https://clickortap.wordpress.com/2012/02/19/notice-google-docs-new-style-management/#jp-carousel-973
(18:42:10) mirek2: Modify... would be an additional entry in a style menu
(18:42:27) mirek2: (context menus aren't good for ux-discoverability)
(18:43:16) alexanderW: Change Style... would do the same as Modify..., right?
(18:43:43) alexanderW: Because the name should be the smae for the dropdown and the side pane
(18:43:43) mirek2: we could call it "Modify..."
(18:43:58) alexanderW: Doesn't really matter
(18:44:04) alexanderW: *same
(18:44:32) mirek2: alright, I'll bring it this split button and headings automation up on ux-advise
(18:45:02) mirek2: alex, you can bring up your desired selection of styles for the dropdown, which I agree with
(18:45:13) mirek2: (except Quotation, as I said)
(18:45:43) alexanderW: It wasn't me who suggested this
(18:46:20) alexanderW: Also, 'Default style' should be removed
(18:46:32) alexanderW: and simply show Text Body by default
(18:46:49) mirek2: while I agree, I'd prefer to leave that discussion to you
(18:47:23) mirek2: (I'm not caught up with the mails, and it's not an issue that would interest me very much)
(18:48:14) alexanderW: okay
(18:49:20) mirek2: is anyone here interested in the feedback options discussed on the list?
(18:49:41) android272: what is it?
(18:50:18) mirek2: see the mailing list
(18:50:24) android272: kk
(18:50:46) medieval: As I said in mailing list, there should be Get involved too
(18:50:48) mirek2: "send feedback option"
(18:51:00) medieval: (which needs update itself too)
(18:51:33) mirek2: (I'll leave the discussion to you, I'm staying out of this topic)
(18:52:54) alexanderW: But I wouldn't highlight it too much
(18:53:23) alexanderW: it's not strictly realted to feedback
(18:54:02) medieval: yes
(18:56:34) medieval: (Astron isn�t here, it is pointless to discuss it here know)
(18:57:55) medieval: Next topic?
(19:00:03) mirek2 hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
(19:02:58) alexanderW: Default toolbar config
(19:03:03) android272: I think im going tot go
(19:03:25) android272 hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Quit: Page closed).
(19:05:18) alexanderW: Does it make sense to discuss this?
(19:06:26) medieval: possibly
(19:06:42) medieval: Gallery option will be removed?
(19:07:28) mirek2 [59b0ae7b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.176.174.123] hat den Raum betreten.
(19:07:30) mirek2: sorry, my computer froze
(19:07:44) mirek2: did the topic change while I was gone?
(19:07:55) alexanderW: default toolbar conf
(19:08:12) mirek2: alright, what did you talk about so far?
(19:08:25) mirek2: any conclusions reached?
(19:08:30) alexanderW: not much
(19:08:34) alexanderW: just started
(19:08:50) alexanderW: does any app use the gallery in a toolbar?
(19:09:33) alexanderW: I think not
(19:09:55) mirek2: what do you mean?
(19:10:06) mirek2: I think the gallery is in all the Standard toolbars, no?
(19:10:48) alexanderW: Ah, I modified the toolbar
(19:10:50) alexanderW: okay
(19:10:58) mirek2: (I'm on an older version, though)
(19:11:17) mirek2: my netbook froze while I was building the nightly
(19:11:34) alexanderW: Did you ever succeed in building LibO?
(19:11:58) mirek2: yes, once
(19:12:12) alexanderW: Stuff has been improved during the Munich hackfest, maybe I should try again
(19:12:17) mirek2: but then style previews came and I've been hoping to rebuild
(19:12:25) mirek2: yes
(19:13:03) alexanderW: Okay, I'd drop Insert Hyperlink, gallery, data sources and maybe non-prining chars
(19:13:18) alexanderW: but add some stuff from the insert menu
(19:13:29) mirek2: hm... I'd like to go the other way
(19:13:40) mirek2: ideally, I'd like to end up with a minimal Standard menu
(19:13:42) alexanderW: which stuff we need?
(19:13:45) mirek2: with an appmenu at the end
(19:13:45) medieval: (Why don�t you use daily builds)
(19:14:02) medieval: Help button=
(19:14:06) medieval: ?
(19:14:12) mirek2: (I still need to respond to the thread tat I raised up about it)
(19:14:14) alexanderW: I do use daily builds
(19:14:37) alexanderW: Not sure about the help button
(19:15:01) mirek2: (such as on overflow.png)
(19:15:28) mirek2: or http://bassultra.deviantart.com/art/Word-Processor-in-fullscreen-338262486
(19:16:12) mirek2: I'd just like to have LibreOffice use one line for its main toolbar, so that it could look better
(19:16:32) mirek2: and have an app menu to fit in with Gnome 3, elementary, and move toward making menus unnecessary
(19:17:08) alexanderW: And drop most of the stuff in the upper toolbar?
(19:17:27) mirek2: I'll bring it up on the mailing list, I think
(19:17:37) mirek2: the stuff wouldn't be dropped, just moved into the appmenu
(19:17:42) alexanderW: But is that a change feasible for 4.0?
(19:17:50) mirek2: http://elementaryos.org/docs/human-interface-guidelines/ui-toolkit-elements/toolbars/appmenu
(19:18:20) mirek2: alexanderW: it's certainly feasible -- it's just adding a drop-down menu, which should be simple
(19:18:55) mirek2: on the other hand, now that I think about it, it might involve a bit more
(19:18:56) medieval: only text? or icons?
(19:19:03) mirek2: if we want to do it right
(19:19:29) mirek2: I'll mention it all on the mailing list, will be happy if you respond to it there afterwards
(19:20:37) mirek2: anyway, about insertion tools -- I'd suggest to move them to the drawing toolbar, since that's where Insert Image is placed
(19:21:18) mirek2: (and if we consider inserting an image as "drawing" it, then we should definitely consider a table or a chart being drawn)
(19:22:13) alexanderW: I'd restrict the drawing toolbar to the draw functions within LibO
(19:22:44) mirek2: there's already "Insert Image" and sometimes "Gallery"
(19:23:05) alexanderW: And therefore remove those two from the drawing toolbar
(19:23:10) mirek2: I'd propose to rename the Drawing toolbar to the Insert toolbar
(19:23:25) medieval: there is already insert toolbar
(19:23:56) mirek2: that one would be merged with the new one
(19:24:04) mirek2: it includes mostly duplicates anyway
(19:24:33) mirek2: the reasoning behind this proposal is manifold:
(19:24:54) mirek2: a) having one single consistent place for inserting items into the document
(19:25:02) medieval: there is only 1 duplicate
(19:25:38) medieval: (but integrating them make more sense)
(19:25:47) mirek2: (I've been looking at the one in Impress, sorry)
(19:26:33) mirek2: it would also make sense to have text-related insertion commands in a separate toolbar (Insert text), which would appear only when inside a text field
(19:27:15) alexanderW: text fields are probably rather rare in writer
(19:27:39) mirek2: by text field, I mean any place where you can insert text
(19:27:39) alexanderW: you nean stuff like page number, author etc. ?
(19:27:52) mirek2: yes
(19:28:30) alexanderW: IMHO a single button would suffice
(19:28:43) alexanderW: exposing the sub-meu of Insert > Fields
(19:29:14) mirek2: I didn't mean just fields
(19:29:26) mirek2: all insertion commands that apply only when working with text
(19:30:01) mirek2: fields, special characters, endnote, footnote, etc.
(19:30:51) mirek2: we could have these in a separate toolbar not shown by default, but perhaps have a button on the text formatting toolbar that would trigger it as a pop-up
(19:31:12) mirek2: (similarly to how "Align" is a toolbar hidden by default, appearing as a button on formatting toolbars)
(19:32:12) medieval: one way to reduce space usage is using more popups
(19:33:04) medieval: (but it makes more clicks and unusable for touchscreen)
(19:33:06) mirek2: we're talking about just reorganizing the commands, not creating new UI elements
(19:33:14) medieval: yes
(19:33:40) mirek2: pop-ups should be usable with touch elements
(19:33:54) mirek2: anyway, should I start a whiteboard on this?
(19:34:10) medieval: yes
(19:34:31) alexanderW: prrobably
(19:34:47) mirek2: okay
(19:34:59) mirek2: I will
(19:34:59) medieval: Isn�t the help button unsable know? When clicking on it it opens some odd place?
(19:35:11) medieval: unusable*
(19:35:27) alexanderW: it opens the help viewer
(19:35:28) mirek2: it works for me
(19:36:33) medieval: http://help.libreoffice.org/swriter/.uno:HelpIndex?Language=en-US&System=WIN&Version=3.6#bm_id3149178
(19:36:48) medieval: It send me to this page
(19:36:55) alexanderW: Are you on win?
(19:37:07) alexanderW: ah, of course
(19:37:17) alexanderW: I guess you didn't install the offline help
(19:37:19) medieval: yes
(19:37:24) medieval: ok
(19:38:10) medieval: But help should be removed from main toolbar
(19:38:19) alexanderW: I think so, too
(19:38:21) medieval: It has its own menu
(19:38:34) mirek2: I agree
(19:40:13) medieval: Do you have the link about how much are buttons used in openoffice?
(19:40:40) alexanderW: there was an oo.org ux page
(19:40:55) alexanderW: can't find it right now
(19:41:03) mirek2: http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Tracking_results
(19:41:41) alexanderW: is there also a picture for writer?
(19:42:44) mirek2: don't know
(19:43:42) mirek2: if there is, I don't know about it
(19:44:10) mirek2: most of the standard toolbar items should be applicable to Writer as well
(19:45:54) medieval: Navigator=
(19:45:54) mirek2: if we're done with the topic, I'd like to discuss one more thing
(19:45:57) alexanderW: the table is useful, tough
(19:46:40) alexanderW: we could check which items that are not visible by default are pretty high-ranked
(19:46:53) alexanderW: e.g. .uno:InsertGraphic
(19:47:00) alexanderW: or .uno:PageDialog
(19:47:21) alexanderW: So maybe it would be useful to add the page dialog to the default toolba
(19:47:24) alexanderW: *r
(19:47:36) mirek2: isn't that "Insert Image"?
(19:48:35) alexanderW: the ico is named insertgraphic, so I guess that's the insert image button
(19:48:35) mirek2: I'd prefer to have a dedicated page formatting toolbar and a way to select pages
(19:48:57) mirek2: that one's visible by default already
(19:48:57) alexanderW: .uno:InsertBreak also pretty high
(19:49:26) mirek2: could also be part of the page toolbar
(19:50:19) mirek2: if you'd be up for it, I'd love to start designing a way to select pages
(19:50:22) alexanderW: IMHO we should also work on the individual toolbars, but make the most used items part of the default toolbar
(19:50:30) mirek2: within a whiteboard
(19:51:17) mirek2: alexanderW: I don't want to add items to the default toolbar
(19:51:36) mirek2: it's not a discoverable place
(19:51:47) mirek2: since it includes all kinds of unrelated commands
(19:52:34) alexanderW: They might be unrelated, but they are pretty exposed
(19:52:48) mirek2: as I said, I'd prefer to have a place for object-related commands (that's basically what the formatting toolbar does now), a place for inserting stuff (could be an evolution of the drawing toolbar), and a small place for file-related stuff
(19:53:57) alexanderW: file-related like printing, cut & isert etc?
(19:54:03) alexanderW: *insert
(19:54:09) alexanderW: pdf-export...
(19:54:10) mirek2: I'd like to bring order to all the toolbars
(19:54:31) mirek2: cut is object-related (depends on what object you select)
(19:54:44) mirek2: insert, as stated, would have its own bar
(19:55:02) alexanderW: Ah, I meant paste
(19:55:07) medieval: Navigator, Data sources - are these not used one time per document? These are easily accessable from menu, no need to be on toolbar
(19:56:45) mirek2: I'd love to put in an appmenu/action overflow, like elementary and Android recommend for all its applications
(19:56:55) mirek2: or like that seen in Chrome or Firefox
(19:56:56) mirek2: http://elementaryos.org/docs/human-interface-guidelines/ui-toolkit-elements/toolbars/appmenu
(19:57:03) mirek2: for file-related commands
(19:57:18) mirek2: even MS Office puts these commands out-of-the-way
(19:57:32) mirek2: has them in a completely different view
(19:58:36) alexanderW: Sorry guys, I got to go
(19:58:55) mirek2: can you post the log?
(19:59:05) mirek2: (I can't)
(19:59:26) alexanderW: Up until now, or I leave the IRC client open
(19:59:30) alexanderW: yeah
(19:59:40) mirek2: I'll go as well
(19:59:49) mirek2: I think we discussed everything important
(19:59:57) alexanderW: okay, good
(20:00:03) mirek2: I'll put up a command organization whiteboard
(20:00:09) alexanderW: Have a nice evening
(20:00:26) mirek2: you too
(20:02:08) mirek2: good night, everyone
(20:03:23) medieval: bye