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#libreoffice-design

(17:01:35) mirek2: hello
 (17:07:06) alexanderW: Are you ok with those XML icons?
 (17:07:39) mirek2: to be honest, I haven't taken much of a look at them
 (17:08:10) mirek2: I'll do so now
 (17:08:30) alexanderW: ok
 (17:10:20) mirek2: btw, when you were offline, have you made any progress on the Impress Remote icon?
 (17:11:39) alexanderW: not really. Does it only need more polish or also basic changes?
 (17:12:57) mirek2: when you say, does it need more polish, which original are you talking about?
 (17:13:32) alexanderW: The one with the blue 'waves'
 (17:14:14) mirek2: If I remember it correctly, I would say it needs basic changes
 (17:14:44) mirek2: as the perspective didn't match the one of standard Android icons
 (17:15:03) mirek2: and the blue wave metaphor, imho, wasn't very strong
 (17:15:24) mirek2: we could do a public whiteboard for it, if you'd like
 (17:15:52) mirek2: to find a suitable metaphor
 (17:16:27) mirek2: Michel published some proposals
 (17:16:28) mirek2: [[1]]
 (17:16:59) mirek2: correction: a proposal
 (17:17:10) alexanderW: I'll have a look
 (17:17:32) mirek2: and Kévin proposed something as well
 (17:17:40) alexanderW: I kinda like it, but the phone shouldn't be that detailed
 (17:17:53) mirek2: it's all in the [libreoffice-design] Android Remote icon thread
 (17:18:09) mirek2: should I start a whiteboard on this?
 (17:19:21) alexanderW: I hope that doesn't result in too many whiteboards again
 (17:19:35) mirek2: I don't think it will
 (17:19:53) mirek2: we'll close the whiteboard by the time the remote comes, whether there's a proposal or not
 (17:19:54) alexanderW: well, do so
 (17:20:00) alexanderW: sure
 (17:20:06) mirek2: alright
 (17:20:14) mirek2: about the XML icons
 (17:20:55) mirek2: I'm not a user of this feature, so I'm not the best judge, but they seem kind of hard to distinguish between
 (17:21:45) mirek2: however, you better send the icons to Kohei -- he'll judge better :)
 (17:22:06) alexanderW: Maybe I could increse the contrast a bit
 (17:22:12) mirek2: there's a UX advise mailing list thread called XML Import -- could you send it there?
 (17:22:29) mirek2: alexanderW: the contrast's not the problem
 (17:22:39) mirek2: it's just that all the icons use the same shapes and colors
 (17:22:47) mirek2: only the position of the colored items is different
 (17:23:02) alexanderW: yes
 (17:23:02) mirek2: which makes it hard to tell them apart at first glance
 (17:23:32) mirek2: what might help, and I don't know if this is a good idea in this context, is to at least use different highlight colors in each icon
 (17:23:32) alexanderW: the syntax seems to be the same forr all theree icon, so this was waht I came up with
 (17:25:43) mirek2: for comparison, these are Office's icons: [[2]]
 (17:26:43) mirek2: not that we want to use the same metaphors, just that it's best to differentiate them
 (17:26:48) mirek2: at least using color
 (17:26:55) alexanderW: I saw them, but IMHO they don't really convey a meaning
 (17:27:16) mirek2: I agree
 (17:27:53) mirek2: perhaps you could differentiate the XML attributes icon from the one for XML elements somehow?
 (17:28:35) mirek2: and find a symbol to differentiate between non-recurring vs. recurring XML elements
 (17:29:14) mirek2: (I suppose I'm not being very helpful)
 (17:29:28) alexanderW: m not sure what that symbol could be
 (17:30:29) alexanderW: The XML structure is basically 
 (17:30:29) alexanderW: <XML attribute>
 (17:30:29) alexanderW:       <Non-recurring element>
 (17:30:37) alexanderW:        <recurring element>
 (17:31:14) mirek2: is the recurring element on the same level as the non-recurring element?
 (17:31:15) alexanderW:         <recurring element>
 (17:31:15) alexanderW:      </non-recurring element>
 (17:31:15) alexanderW: </attribute>
 (17:31:23) alexanderW: it isn't
 (17:31:40) mirek2: oh, ok
 (17:32:47) mirek2: hm...
 (17:34:17) mirek2: I guess I'm just not the right person to talk to in this case
 (17:34:24) mirek2: please send the icons to Kohei
 (17:34:53) alexanderW: Alright
 (17:38:29) mirek2: have you seen the e-mail about cleaning up the toolbars I sent recently?
 (17:38:38) alexanderW: Yes
 (17:38:41) alexanderW: sounds good
 (17:38:57) mirek2: have you read Regina's response?
 (17:39:07) mirek2: (I've just read it, btw)
 (17:39:16) mirek2: haven't had time to write a response
 (17:39:41) alexanderW: reading it right now
 (17:40:57) alexanderW: maybe just kick the unimportant stuff out then?
 (17:42:28) mirek2: well, I had several reasons for starting the thread
 (17:43:05) mirek2: 1) if we want to change the default icon size to large, it'd be good to compensate for it by having just a single row of toolbars instead of two
 (17:44:42) mirek2: 2) most of the buttons on the standard toolbar need to be used maybe once or twice when working with a document; they don't tend to be very relevant when actually editing a document, so they basically just add noise most of the time
 (17:45:17) mirek2: 3) LibreOffice looks really bad with two toolbar rows -- having just a single one would make it look so much cleaner and more balanced
 (17:46:34) mirek2: 4) This "AppMenu" would reduce dependency on the menu bar and pave way toward making the menubar unnecessary (we would still maintain it, it just wouldn't be required to operate LibreOffice)
 (17:47:31) mirek2: 5) Because of the change it would entail, it'd be good to have it in time for 4.0.
 (17:47:41) Medieval: What items are coming to appmenu?
 (17:48:01) Medieval: And wht it differates from File menu?
 (17:48:12) Medieval: why*
 (17:49:03) mirek2: in its first iteration, it would hold most of the commands found in the standard toolbar, except for a few select ones we want to always show by default
 (17:50:13) Medieval: and second: removing menu bar?
 (17:50:36) Medieval: like in firefox, chrome, elementaryOS?
 (17:50:41) mirek2: gradually, it could fit in more and more of selection-independent commands, much like the menu in Chrome, yes
 (17:51:19) mirek2: Medieval: no, the menu bar would still be maintained, "it just wouldn't be required to operate LibreOffice"
 (17:51:26) mirek2: as said above
 (17:51:35) mirek2: this is all just a proposal of mine
 (17:51:52) alexanderW: but wouldn't that increase the effort to do even standard stuff?
 (17:52:25) mirek2: compare IE 6 with Chrome
 (17:52:57) mirek2: IE 6 had loads of toolbar buttons, Chrome has 3, with most commands under an AppMenu
 (17:53:22) Medieval: There will be only setting which are used more often than these which are on options?
 (17:53:59) mirek2: Medieval: sorry, I don't quite understand
 (17:54:02) Medieval: (not save and etc?)
 (17:54:13) mirek2: anyway, the choice of buttons to show would be up to us
 (17:54:33) mirek2: I would show "save", "undo", "redo", and perhaps "paste"
 (17:54:53) alexanderW: But what about styles?
 (17:55:11) mirek2: they're not part of the standard toolbar
 (17:55:42) alexanderW: I'd argue that one needs it quite often
 (17:55:55) Medieval: Isn
 (17:56:14) Medieval: Isn´t it better if we reorginze whole menu system?
 (17:57:18) mirek2: Medieval: that's much, much more complex to do, and doesn't reduce the complexity of the standard toolbar layout
 (17:57:49) mirek2: + our current menu bar layout follows the standards
 (17:58:12) mirek2: its chaotic nature is more a result of bad standards in general than a fault of the developers
 (17:59:33) Medieval: Why is it easier to access "paste" from appmenu than edit menu?
 (17:59:55) Medieval: Appmenu is more visual like chrome menu?
 (18:01:45) mirek2: well, for one thing, commands from the appmenu could be moved out of it to the toolbar much more easily
 (18:01:58) mirek2: simply by unhiding them in the customize dialog
 (18:02:13) mirek2: and hopefully also using drag-and-drop later on
 (18:03:03) mirek2: the idea behind it, though, is more of cleaning up the standard toolbar without people getting upset about where their commands went
 (18:03:29) mirek2: and slowly evolving into something that can hide menubars by default if it's the OS standard
 (18:04:18) mirek2: as it increasingly is (elementary, Gnome, Windows, Android, iOS)
 (18:05:21) mirek2: and having only a single toolbar row -- to follow standards, to look better, and to provide a simpler UI
 (18:06:16) Medieval: And isn´t removing menu leading to something like ribbon in the future?
 (18:06:27) mirek2: nope
 (18:06:35) mirek2: for a whole host of reasons
 (18:06:42) mirek2: we will never implement the ribbon
 (18:06:54) Medieval: [[3]]
 (18:07:51) mirek2: sorry, but we're not implementing a ribbon
 (18:09:23) mirek2: they're actually not a very good UI element, which is also why you don't see them or anything similar as part of any modern HIG except Microsoft's
 (18:09:30) Medieval: I am not proribbon also
 (18:10:12) mirek2: in any case, I guess there's no point in discussing the topic any further here
 (18:10:21) mirek2: I'll have to reply to Regina's comments first
 (18:10:46) astron247 [~frootzowr@dslb-188-102-183-212.pools.arcor-ip.net] hat den Raum betreten.
 (18:10:57) alexanderW: hi
 (18:11:07) astron247: hi alll
 (18:11:10) astron247: -l
 (18:11:20) mirek2: hello
 (18:11:28) mirek2: just in time for a new topic
 (18:11:43) astron247: oh ... youre already done with one :)
 (18:11:56) mirek2: not really, just moved on from one :)
 (18:12:22) mirek2: but we did discuss the XML icons
 (18:12:28) astron247: ok.
 (18:12:41) mirek2: what do you think about them?
 (18:12:44) astron247: can i ask something about them now?
 (18:12:56) alexanderW: sure
 (18:13:27) astron247: what exactly are they for? did someone contact you about them or are they already in use?
 (18:13:40) alexanderW: Kohei asked for them
 (18:13:48) alexanderW: For the Calc XML import
 (18:13:59) astron247: ok
 (18:14:20) mirek2: the thread is on ux-advise
 (18:14:27) astron247: ah. i must have that then
 (18:14:29) mirek2: "XML Import", I believe
 (18:14:57) astron247: ^have^have missed
 (18:15:18) mirek2: we also discussed the "cleaning up the default toolbars" thread that I brought up on the mailing list
 (18:15:49) mirek2: I really ought to respond to Regina before we move any further on the topic
 (18:15:56) astron247: right. 
 (18:16:16) mirek2: anything interesting from the ESC?
 (18:16:23) astron247: i was astonished to see such a long answer from you to the one-sentence message from fitschido
 (18:16:33) astron247: ESC: not really.
 (18:16:39) mirek2: :)
 (18:16:49) mirek2: I like to be thorough
 (18:16:51) astron247: that's part of the reason why i didnt post anything.
 (18:16:58) mirek2: ok
 (18:17:31) astron247: i also havent asked cedric for input, sorry. but the hackfest is now, so maybe we can coerce him to come here ...
 (18:17:44) mirek2: alright, great :)
 (18:17:49) mirek2: btw, you have noticed that with the time change, it's now 17:17 UTC
 (18:17:57) mirek2: not 16:17
 (18:18:19) astron247: i guess i haven't?
 (18:18:25) mirek2: (I didn't notice until two weeks ago, I think, so that's why I'm asking)
 (18:19:00) astron247: ah, now i know what you mean, dst woes
 (18:19:17) mirek2: :) yes
 (18:19:34) astron247: okay. then were probably doing UTC with european DST...
 (18:20:29) mirek2: we actually usually start at 16:00 UTC
 (18:20:41) mirek2: but we could change it if it doesn't suit you
 (18:21:04) alexanderW: 17:00 UTC?
 (18:21:04) astron247: no, i guess starting at 1700 local wouldnt hurt at all.
 (18:21:28) astron247: would just have to get used to that.
 (18:22:14) mirek2: ok
 (18:22:46) mirek2: I've updated the global options analysis -- now it's complete except for one template-related item that we should talk to Cedric about
 (18:23:07) mirek2: and I've posted about it on the G+ page, so hopefully we'll get a little bit of feedback
 (18:23:14) astron247: ok, ill contact him now.
 (18:23:31) mirek2: great :)
 (18:24:57) astron247: ok, whats the best topic to discuss in the meantime then?
 (18:25:43) mirek2: I've updated the color picker design
 (18:25:58) mirek2: [[4]]
 (18:26:05) mirek2: with various scroll bar options
 (18:26:13) alexanderW: Btw, cedric removed the rulers
 (18:26:20) alexanderW: those colorful gifs
 (18:26:34) mirek2: good, glad they're gone
 (18:26:43) astron247: ah, good.
 (18:27:02) astron247: btw: i found similar rulers still lurking within mso 2010...
 (18:27:10) mirek2: heh
 (18:27:40) astron247: ok
 (18:28:13) astron247: mirek, could you maybe remove cmyk from the design for now?
 (18:28:23) mirek2: yes, I will
 (18:28:35) astron247: good
 (18:28:35) alexanderW: what's the difference between the first two scrollbar designs?
 (18:29:26) mirek2: the first design has smaller color tiles
 (18:29:34) mirek2: condensed to fit the scrollbar
 (18:29:53) mirek2: btw, in the second scrollbar proposal, the color label is misaligned
 (18:31:01) mirek2: part of the second proposal would be to have a blank area for the scrollbar on the right at all times
 (18:31:48) astron247: what does that have to do with the label?
 (18:33:24) mirek2: nothing, I just forgot to recenter it when I increased the size of the color preview rectangle
 (18:34:52) astron247: ah, well. its not half as bad as the "centred" text in the about box :)
 (18:35:47) mirek2: :)
 (18:36:30) Medieval: I think it is best if there is arrows like in last one, for touchscreens
 (18:37:21) mirek2: the whole color area would be scrollable on touch screens
 (18:37:27) astron247: you can swipe on touchscreens
 (18:37:40) astron247: (i.e. what mirek said)
 (18:38:00) alexanderW: no need for those buttons i think
 (18:38:23) alexanderW: for scrolling
 (18:38:35) astron247: i dont really like the last one either, because i add a scrollbar too, it will be somewhat duplicated functionality
 (18:38:57) astron247: ^because i^because if you
 (18:39:03) mirek2: I would say the third proposal only makes sense with a scrollbar like Unity's
 (18:39:22) mirek2: (we can't rely on all touchpads to have some sort of scrolling functionality, nor on users to discover it)
 (18:39:23) astron247: right, but we'll in all likelihood have to use native scrollbars
 (18:39:45) mirek2: I don't think we're able to use native scrollbars
 (18:40:02) astron247: (except in the ubuntus case, as we dont yet support the unity scrollbars)
 (18:40:03) mirek2: we can only theme our scrollbars like the default ones
 (18:40:10) astron247: right
 (18:40:27) astron247: but, in most cases thats functionally the same, no?
 (18:40:27) mirek2: well, not macOS's either -- those autodisappear
 (18:40:48) astron247: right, were using the old version of the mac scrollbars iirc
 (18:41:09) astron247: (i. e. those that still had buttons at the top an the bottom)
 (18:41:39) mirek2: the problem with the scrollbars is: we shouldn't change the width of the pop-up when switching categories
 (18:42:05) mirek2: thus if a category requires a scrollbar, we have the options shown in the mockup
 (18:42:26) mirek2: 1) make the color tiles smaller to fit a scrollbar
 (18:42:36) mirek2: 2) have a persistent scrollbar area
 (18:42:48) astron247: id go for 1, still.
 (18:42:53) mirek2: 3) have a scrollbar narrow enough to fit
 (18:43:01) alexanderW: 2
 (18:43:13) alexanderW:  for consistency
 (18:43:18) mirek2: I agree with Alex
 (18:43:46) astron247: i find dummy scrollbars are incredibly ugly.
 (18:44:04) mirek2: the look of the scrollbar is debatable
 (18:44:22) astron247: the missing functionality isnt really
 (18:44:42) mirek2: I chose 2 not just for the sake of consistency and appearance, but also in the case that we need the scrollbars in the custom color section or some other non-tiled category
 (18:45:24) mirek2: astron247: missing functionality?
 (18:46:07) astron247: dummy scrollbars = no functionality; or: no scrollbars = useless whitespace
 (18:48:39) mirek2: [[5]]
 (18:49:32) astron247: keep in mind that area might be come arbitrarily larger or smaller
 (18:49:55) mirek2: only if we use the system scrollbars
 (18:50:12) mirek2: if we use our own scrollbars (only for pop-ups), then that's avoided
 (18:50:58) astron247: the problem with rolling our own scrollbars is that they are never, never going to be as good as the default one
 (18:51:02) astron247: s
 (18:51:14) mirek2: I disagree -- they could easily be better
 (18:51:15) alexanderW: agree
 (18:51:18) astron247: see... countless websites, like vimeo.com etc.
 (18:51:57) mirek2: well, Gnome itself uses different scrollbars for its pop-ups and its overview
 (18:52:04) astron247: also, they wouldnt look native and id really like to have that
 (18:53:10) astron247: right, there is something really ugly going on there and that is that gnome shell is written using a completely different toolkit (St) than the rest of gnome (GTK)
 (18:53:28) mirek2: in 3.0, Gnome used white scrollbars with arrows at the ends for common windows, while in pop-ups, it used much simpler monochrome scrollbars
 (18:53:45) mirek2: yet it didn't look inconsistent
 (18:53:49) astron247: what popup for instance?
 (18:53:57) mirek2: and I'd argue the monochromatic icons were really suited for the popups
 (18:54:24) mirek2: astron247: if I remember correctly, at least the default system pop-ups
 (18:54:35) mirek2: shell pop-ups
 (18:54:57) astron247: yes. that is because the shell uses a completely different toolkit, as i just said.
 (18:55:21) astron247: and ftr, i do think it looks inconsistent
 (18:55:36) mirek2: yes, I'm just saying that they managed to pull it off
 (18:55:49) alexanderW: Yeah, I prefer e.g. gtk studown dialogs, too
 (18:55:52) mirek2: honestly, I don't think full-fledged complex scrollbars belong in pop-ups
 (18:56:17) mirek2: imho, pop-up scrollbars should be much simpler
 (18:56:41) mirek2: also, don't assume native is always best
 (18:56:55) mirek2: native elementary scrollbars look horrid in LibreOffice
 (18:57:01) astron247: sure, but were talking about libreoffice ui here.
 (18:57:08) alexanderW: Wouldn't custom widgets contradict the effort to use as much native technology as possible?
 (18:57:15) astron247: native is in almost any case the best we can do.
 (18:57:16) alexanderW: cf. conversion to .ui files
 (18:57:53) astron247: alexanderW: the conversion to ui, is so that people can finally resize windows and so that devs have less hassle in updating them
 (18:59:00) mirek2: alright, then if we do want to use native scrollbars in the pop-up, then that's fine
 (18:59:07) alexanderW: I know, but instead of using a custom src file format, we use a standard file format
 (18:59:14) mirek2: yes, the whitespace will vary, but not too much
 (18:59:52) astron247: alexanderW: its only the standard on gnome
 (19:00:03) mirek2: the main LibreOffice Writer scrollbar counts on the whitespace not varying (because of the buttons at the bottom), the pop-ups can too
 (19:00:09) alexanderW: yeah
 (19:01:06) mirek2: (when I say pop-up, I mean popover)
 (19:01:31) astron247: if you zoom out enough, the scrollbar hides...
 (19:02:28) astron247: ... of course, the buttons are also most useful, when the document is longer than one screen page
 (19:02:55) mirek2: yes -- when you see the whole document, there's no point in those navigation buttons
 (19:03:45) astron247: in any case, this example doesn't really help
 (19:04:15) mirek2: I'm just saying that LibreOffice already counts on the width of a scrollbar to be somewhat rational
 (19:04:32) astron247: and fails, e.g. on gnome 3.6
 (19:04:47) mirek2: gnome 3.6 was fine for me
 (19:04:48) astron247: (the icons there are barely visible)
 (19:04:55) mirek2: but it fails completely on elementary OS
 (19:05:07) mirek2: there the icons don't even appear
 (19:05:23) mirek2: the whitespace in the popover would only be a problem if the system scrollbars were too large
 (19:05:44) mirek2: but in that case, solution 1 wouldn't work either
 (19:06:56) mirek2: so I'd opt for solution 2 with native scrollbars
 (19:07:09) mirek2: (or custom scrollbars, it doesn't matter)
 (19:10:49) alexanderW: should we vote?
 (19:10:58) astron247: well then, as ales agrees with you and i guess i dont have any more arguments...
 (19:11:50) mirek2: how about this:
 (19:12:28) mirek2: I'll send an e-mail to the design list asking for more opinions and designs, with proposal 2 being the winner if nobody answers
 (19:12:35) mirek2: deadline being next irc chat
 (19:13:52) astron247: okay
 (19:14:00) alexanderW: ok
 (19:14:17) mirek2: great
 (19:14:31) mirek2: anything else to add about the picker?
 (19:14:59) mirek2: if not, let's move onto the gallery
 (19:16:14) mirek2: have you read my post on the design list on the topic?
 (19:17:06) alexanderW: yes
 (19:17:16) astron247: just now
 (19:17:36) alexanderW: first, one question: would all the old content be replaced with stuff from openclipart?
 (19:18:48) mirek2: I would like to get rid of all the content we have in there now
 (19:18:55) alexanderW: yes
 (19:19:36) mirek2: however, I'm not satisfied with the selection on openclipart either
 (19:19:39) astron247: ill just check if we need some of that for html export...
 (19:20:03) astron247: mirek: yes, openclipart stuff might still need a lot of improvement
 (19:20:24) alexanderW: having buttons instead of the menu items sounds good to me
 (19:22:03) mirek2: on openclipart, it's very hard to find quality items
 (19:22:15) astron247: right. 
 (19:22:18) mirek2: it's much, much harder to find items of consistent style
 (19:22:31) astron247: i think the best ones usually come from old patent applications
 (19:23:09) mirek2: what do you mean?
 (19:23:28) mirek2: old patent applications?
 (19:24:01) astron247: yes, old patent applications are in the public domain and thus, there are people who feed such images into openclipart.
 (19:24:39) mirek2: are you sure you don't mean old copyrighted works?
 (19:24:51) astron247: yes.
 (19:25:20) astron247: but, of course, patent applications are usually covered by copyright too
 (19:25:42) mirek2: well, sure, of course
 (19:25:59) mirek2: but there aren't many images on patent applications that would be usable for clipart
 (19:26:28) astron247: not in the traditional sense maybe
 (19:27:03) mirek2: :)
 (19:27:18) mirek2: anyway, I'd like to propose teaming up with thenounproject.com instead
 (19:27:31) astron247: "teaming up"..?
 (19:27:40) cbosdonnat [~cbosdo@lhm246.muenchen.de] hat den Raum betreten.
 (19:27:40) astron247: (cedric just answered)
 (19:27:44) cbosdonnat: Hello guys
 (19:27:47) alexanderW: hi cedric
 (19:28:00) ***cbosdonnat is live from Munich hackfest
 (19:28:02) mirek2: hi cedric
 (19:28:03) astron247: thanks for making it :)
 (19:28:17) mirek2: yes, thanks a lot
 (19:28:30) cbosdonnat: so from what I understood you have some questions to discuss about the template manager
 (19:28:43) mirek2: yes
 (19:29:06) astron247: yes, we wanted to ask what the plan for it is right now... are we looking for a 4.0 release or another gsoc or so?
 (19:29:23) cbosdonnat: I'ld say 4.0 would be nice
 (19:29:31) cbosdonnat: thanks for reminding me to push on that ;)
 (19:30:10) mirek2: before we get started on the dialog itself, I'd like to ask about an option
 (19:30:28) moggi [~moggi@lhm246.muenchen.de] hat den Raum betreten.
 (19:30:37) mirek2: [[6]] : Paths > Templates
 (19:31:03) mirek2: is this being handled by the dialog in any way?
 (19:31:21) cbosdonnat: mirek2, not ATM
 (19:31:34) mirek2: ok
 (19:31:37) cbosdonnat: mirek2, what Rafael did is just use the existing config
 (19:31:58) mirek2: alright, that makes sense
 (19:32:07) astron247: hi moggi...
 (19:32:15) mirek2: hello
 (19:32:17) alexanderW: hi
 (19:32:52) moggi: hi astron247 
 (19:33:20) mirek2: before the template dialog ships, there are some bugs and glitches that should be taken care of first
 (19:33:39) astron247: okay, so there were two main thing that somewhat irk us about the new template manager:
 (19:33:40) astron247: * first, its still modal.
 (19:33:43) astron247: * second, it uses double-clicks... which kind of defeats the designs purpose of being usable on touch
 (19:34:21) astron247: (sorry, but i had already started typing...)
 (19:34:28) alexanderW: Is it easy to make it a normal dialog?
 (19:35:01) cbosdonnat: astron247, ok
 (19:35:09) alexanderW: There was a line like 'ModalDialog...' in the .src file, is that all what needs to be changed?
 (19:35:14) cbosdonnat: shouldn't be complex to make it a normal dialog
 (19:35:32) cbosdonnat: alexanderW, there is certainly also the base class to change as well
 (19:35:47) alexanderW: ah, okay
 (19:37:15) alexanderW: Also I have two patches which should make the dialog use icons, it would be great if someone could take a loo why they don't work as intended
 (19:37:43) astron247: ah, right. sorry for that alex. it still didnt work for me...
 (19:39:29) astron247: anyway, so the modality is not so hard to do away with, i assume the double clicks arent either..?
 (19:39:34) cbosdonnat: alexanderW, ok
 (19:39:49) cbosdonnat: alexanderW, I need to get my build fixed and switch to that
 (19:40:17) alexanderW: thanks
 (19:41:19) cbosdonnat: could you also help me to find the inconsistent places where we forgot to trigger that dialog?
 (19:41:59) astron247: you mean from the file menu etc.?
 (19:42:59) alexanderW: Patch 1: [[7]]
 (19:43:13) alexanderW: Patch 2: [[8]]
 (19:43:33) alexanderW: I didn't notice any inconsistency
 (19:43:40) cbosdonnat: astron247, not only
 (19:43:57) cbosdonnat: astron247, any place where we should trigger this one
 (19:44:23) cbosdonnat: IIRC I saw one... I'll need to test that intensively
 (19:44:26) alexanderW: Maybe the File > Templates > Organize dialog?
 (19:44:46) cbosdonnat: alexanderW, well, that one still has some features we want to move to some other place
 (19:44:55) alexanderW: alright
 (19:44:56) cbosdonnat: alexanderW, so we'll need to keep it for a while
 (19:45:44) astron247: what are those features?
 (19:45:46) alexanderW: The start center, the toolbar button and the File > New entry all lead to the new dialog
 (19:46:44) cbosdonnat: astron247, one very badly know but powerful is to add/replace styles from a document by picking styles from other documents
 (19:47:07) cbosdonnat: astron247, another one is to set a template as default
 (19:47:58) alexanderW: cbosdonnat: can one use styles from other docs via the 'Styles and Formatting' window?
 (19:48:12) alexanderW: The latter is possible with the new one
 (19:48:53) astron247: alexanderW: is it implemented, too?
 (19:49:09) cbosdonnat: alexanderW, you can bulk load styles from a template in the template path using the "Styles and Formatting" indeed
 (19:50:27) alexanderW: astron: yes, it works
 (19:51:29) astron247: great. so those are basically both already covered?
 (19:52:00) alexanderW: yes
 (19:52:20) cbosdonnat: the Template > Manage dialog allows you to do it between documents and you can drag&drop styles one by one
 (19:52:30) alexanderW: cbosdonnat: So you want to keep the functionality to import only certain styles?
 (19:53:02) cbosdonnat: alexanderW, that was my first idea, but as we can bulk load styles from templates... not sure that's a good reason to keep it ;)
 (19:53:31) alexanderW: :)
 (19:54:06) alexanderW: Should we as on UX-advise?
 (19:56:29) cbosdonnat: you mean raise the question there?
 (19:56:33) astron247: sounds good. if the case of importing only some styles is important, we can probably add a selector window after the file open dialogue.
 (19:57:13) cbosdonnat: astron247, yeah, but I'm not sure we will have time to do that for 4.0... that's why I'm tempted to keep the Templates > Manage dialog
 (19:57:49) cbosdonnat: astron247, that dialog is only used by LO gurus... so if we need to be careful when removing it
 (19:57:58) astron247: hm, i think it would be better if we temporarily lose the ability then
 (19:58:22) astron247: ah, the vocal minorities :)
 (19:59:38) mirek2: what's wrong with keeping the manage dialog just for the release?
 (20:00:13) cbosdonnat: mirek2, nothing from my POV
 (20:00:43) mirek2: I would keep it for now, then
 (20:01:00) astron247: its confusing, because we have two uis for the same thing
 (20:01:10) astron247: (and they work quite differently)
 (20:01:40) mirek2: yes, but the older UI is accessible from different places
 (20:01:45) cbosdonnat: astron247, yes sure, but the one to remove has some important features we want
 (20:02:03) cbosdonnat: pizzas arrived here
 (20:02:21) astron247: so, italo isnt cooking?
 (20:02:34) cbosdonnat: was for lunch
 (20:02:35) alexanderW: bon appétit
 (20:02:41) cbosdonnat: thanks :)
 (20:02:50) alexanderW: :)
 (20:03:28) alexanderW: One detail that bothers me a bit is the fact that the previews taken from the zipped od* files are scaled
 (20:04:07) alexanderW: DIN A4 previews look pretty broken
 (20:05:02) astron247: i think we store those previews directly in the file, making them any larger would mean bloating up the file
 (20:05:29) alexanderW: I'm fine with their size in the zip, but their ratio should be kept
 (20:06:02) astron247: ah okay
 (20:07:07) mirek2: I wish I LibreOffice had built for me -- I can't really try the dialog now, have to recall it from memory
 (20:07:22) alexanderW: Do you need debs?
 (20:07:30) mirek2: anyway, I remember there being complaints of the overlay rendering incorrectly
 (20:07:34) alexanderW: [[9]]
 (20:07:43) alexanderW: debs + rmps of master
 (20:07:49) alexanderW: *rpms
 (20:08:16) mirek2: never would think to look in a Fedora directory for debs
 (20:08:19) mirek2: thanks
 (20:09:37) alexanderW: But 1 Gig, wtf
 (20:10:03) astron247: im uploading screenshots right now
 (20:10:32) astron247: [[10]] , [[11]]
 (20:11:26) mirek2: thanks for that
 (20:12:24) mirek2: (I don't have a 64-bit OS, so I looked for the 32-bit deb, which wouldn't install because of some dependency)
 (20:12:47) alexanderW: ah
 (20:13:10) astron247: alexanderW: how do i use the style importing from templates
 (20:13:14) astron247: ?
 (20:13:35) alexanderW: Click on the rightmost button in the styles and formatting dialog
 (20:13:59) astron247: no, i mean the function that cedric described
 (20:14:07) astron247: (i found the other one)
 (20:14:29) mirek2: cbosdonnat: so, a few comments:
 (20:14:50) mirek2: a) would it be possible to have some sort of border or shadow around the overlay?
 (20:14:50) alexanderW: astron: File > Templates > Organize
 (20:15:01) astron247: right.
 (20:15:06) astron247: and then?
 (20:15:23) alexanderW: then double-click on the two documents between which you want to exhange styles and drag them over
 (20:15:58) astron247: ah, i wouldnt have found that! thanks
 (20:17:27) astron247: the fact that you need to double click and that there are no plus/minus signs to click makes it completely unintuitive
 (20:17:33) alexanderW: Indeed
 (20:18:12) mirek2: b) how hard would it be to have a UI control with "joint buttons", as seen in [[12]] ?
 (20:18:34) mirek2: this control would not only be useful for the dialog, but also for other dialogs and the new color picker popover
 (20:19:14) mirek2: there should be native widget for it in Gnome and macOS
 (20:22:30) mirek2: btw, designers, what would you say if we got rid of the selection mode altogether, and just show the checkboxes by default?
 (20:23:58) astron247: the point of the selection mode is that you can use your extremely fat fingers and press anywhere on the template. if we get rid of that, youd have to hit the tick box
 (20:25:09) astron247: (not trying to insult anyone here=
 (20:25:17) mirek2: alright, just checking :)
 (20:25:52) mirek2: would you propose to handle the selection mode differently than now, though?
 (20:26:35) mirek2: I know we weren't completely happy with it the last time we talked about it
 (20:27:47) astron247: right, because the change from normal → selection mode isnt really communicated to the user
 (20:29:10) mirek2: so how would you remedy that?
 (20:29:26) mirek2: use a different tickbox control for the selection mode?
 (20:29:43) mirek2: increase the size of the tickbox in general, or only for the selection mode?
 (20:30:51) alexanderW: not use native tickboxes?
 (20:31:06) mirek2: or perhaps get rid of the selection mode button altogether, enable it on long-push/right-click, and show an "exit selection mode" button in the toolbar when in the mode
 (20:31:28) astron247: dont show a box in normal mode, enable selection mode when right clicking, and somehow increase the size of the box (although this one will really get us in trouble, because it will look completely non-native)
 (20:32:27) astron247: maybe we could also add a background image to the dialouge when in selection mode (a tick)
 (20:32:44) mirek2: btw, by the "exit selection mode" button, I mean a button that with a checkbox and a "done" label, like in Android
 (20:33:40) alexanderW: Long-click sounds good
 (20:34:14) alexanderW: long-click on one enables slection mode and lets appear tick boxes?
 (20:34:19) astron247: long-click? i dont think that exists, but long-tap does and it is the equivalent (usually) of the right click.
 (20:35:02) mirek2: I would show a box in normal mode, though, for discoverability
 (20:35:11) mirek2: and for efficiency
 (20:35:22) astron247: but you could right-click
 (20:35:34) astron247: (and then enter the mode)
 (20:35:45) astron247: its also efficient
 (20:35:57) mirek2: but not discoverable
 (20:36:27) astron247: right. but the problem we have now, is that it isnt discoverable that we have a selection mode
 (20:36:30) mirek2: (long-tap to select is a standard on touch devices, but right-click to select isn't a standard yet, except in Windows 8 Windows 8 UI apps)
 (20:37:03) mirek2: astron247: the selection mode doesn't need to be discoverable on mouse+keyboard devices, since it's intended only for touch users
 (20:37:21) mirek2: mouse+keyboard users do fine with an on-hover checkbox
 (20:37:34) astron247: but the ui should function for both...
 (20:37:35) mirek2: btw, here's the "Done" button that I was talking about [[13]]
 (20:38:00) astron247: gnome documents has sth similar
 (20:38:33) mirek2: astron247: yes -- as I say, enable selection mode with long-tap, then show a "Done" button on the toolbar to a) signify that the user is in selection mode, b) have a way to exit the mode
 (20:39:21) astron247: btw, win 8 is really quirky with regards to right click/left click for selection. the app store for instance only lets you use left clicks and right clicks do nothing, while the opposite is the case on the start screen
 (20:40:07) astron247: right, but do we hide the selection mode from everyone else or what?
 (20:40:26) astron247: (ie from the mouse and keyboard users)
 (20:40:52) mirek2: yes, they don't need it
 (20:41:03) mirek2: since they have on-hover check boxes
 (20:41:12) mirek2: and fat fingers don't make a difference
 (20:41:25) alexanderW: alright, should we list all suggested changes?
 (20:42:15) astron247: mirek2: so the idea is to detect whether there is a touch input device and hide the button on that basis?
 (20:42:27) mirek2: no, the button would always be hidden
 (20:42:37) mirek2: the selection mode would be enabled using long-tap
 (20:43:03) mirek2: which is a standard for selection
 (20:43:05) astron247: okay
 (20:43:15) astron247: that makes sense again.
 (20:43:36) astron247: but incidentally will lead to no one implementing it right now, i guess
 (20:43:59) astron247: which is fine given the current market penetration of windows 8...
 (20:45:18) mirek2: so, suggested changes: remove the selection mode button, have selection mode activated using long-tap on any of the templates, show a "Done" button on the toolbar when in selection mode for deactivating the mode
 (20:45:27) mirek2: what do you all think?
 (20:46:28) alexanderW: A good solution
 (20:46:52) astron247: ok, sounds good.
 (20:47:31) mirek2: great :)
 (20:47:55) alexanderW: would you agree to show the previews with their original ratio?
 (20:48:25) mirek2: I think so
 (20:48:42) mirek2: hm... cédric hasn't been here in 45 minutes, wonder if he's coming back
 (20:48:58) alexanderW: Must be a huge pizza
 (20:49:33) mirek2: :)
 (20:53:21) cbosdonnat: mirek2, sure it should be possible
 (20:53:56) mirek2: cbosdonnat: what exactly do you mean by "it"?
 (20:54:06) cbosdonnat: mirek2, for the joint buttons is that it's depending on the OS ATM
 (20:54:21) cbosdonnat: mirek2, we could have tab pages (those are rendered this way on MacOS)
 (20:54:22) mirek2: cbosdonnat: what do you mean?
 (20:54:27) cbosdonnat: but not on other OSes
 (20:54:30) alexanderW: It would have to be emulated on Windows and maybe KDE
 (20:55:16) cbosdonnat: mirek2, I meant the border
 (20:55:23) cbosdonnat: mirek2, I was reading the backlog ;)
 (20:55:27) mirek2: don't VCL widgets have to be emulated on every platform
 (20:55:35) cbosdonnat: mirek2, no idea
 (20:55:38) mirek2: ?
 (20:56:45) mirek2: the idea with the joint button widgets would be to simply take the theming information from actual buttons
 (20:56:57) mirek2: that should be compatible with every platform
 (20:58:04) astron247: the problem i guess is that enough platforms use pixel graphics and we cant really read the information about borders that would have to be created etc.
 (20:59:57) astron247: whats more pressing is probably that the pressed button also shows as pressed
 (20:59:59) mirek2: astron247: I'm not sure I follow -- isn't reading information about borders required to theme buttons?
 (20:59:59) cbosdonnat: honestly I fear we couldn't get something perfect by emulating that
 (21:00:26) alexanderW: I agree with astron
 (21:01:00) alexanderW: Some polish would be nice, but It doesn't look really bad right now
 (21:02:00) mirek2: alright
 (21:02:32) mirek2: cbosdonnat: then we had a long conversation between ourselves that you can skip
 (21:02:36) astron247: mirek: youd have to add a line of the same color between the individual buttons
 (21:04:01) mirek2: ok, I guess it boils down to being hard to implement for now
 (21:04:40) mirek2: cbosdonnat: we ended up agreeing that it would be best to remove the selection mode button, have selection mode activated using long-tap on any of the templates, show a "Done" button on the toolbar when in selection mode for deactivating the mode
 (21:04:55) mirek2: do you think that would be possible?
 (21:05:28) cbosdonnat: mirek2, that doesn't imply that much changes isn't that?
 (21:05:42) cbosdonnat: mirek2, just inverting the logic, if I'm getting you right
 (21:05:57) cbosdonnat: mirek2, but what is long tap on a normal computer? ;)
 (21:06:18) mirek2: right-click, at least on Windows
 (21:06:46) mirek2: not sure what you mean by "inverting the logic", but yes, it shouldn't involve much change
 (21:08:14) astron247: cbosdonnat: does libo at this point even recognise any touch events?
 (21:08:42) cbosdonnat: astron247, no, it's only Mouse events
 (21:09:08) cbosdonnat: mirek2, could you summarize that some how and drop me a mail with that so that I don't forget it?
 (21:09:17) astron247: i guess in that case, it doesnt make much sense to have the selection mode...
 (21:09:24) mirek2: sure :)
 (21:09:47) mirek2: does it make sense to keep the mode around for when LibO does recognize touch events?
 (21:11:35) mirek2: also, is it possible that any operating system translates touch events into coresponding mouse events?
 (21:12:01) mirek2: (i.e. long tap = right-click in legacy applications)
 (21:12:28) astron247: maybe, but i dont think most do
 (21:12:59) astron247: (thats pure speculation)
 (21:13:05) astron247: (sorry)
 (21:14:03) mirek2: in any case, I would say it makes sense to keep selection mode around, as touch support is bound to happen sooner or later
 (21:14:22) mirek2: if it's not already being handled by the OS
 (21:15:06) mirek2: cbosdonnat: if you're still there, I'd like to comment a bit on your infobar as well
 (21:15:38) cbosdonnat: mirek2, ok
 (21:16:02) mirek2: I'm judging solely based on the screenshot you posted, but:
 (21:16:24) mirek2: a) it seems as if the action buttons are aligned to the right, not next to the question
 (21:16:43) cbosdonnat: mirek2, that's how it's done in other applications (look at Gnome)
 (21:16:52) cbosdonnat: mirek2, even in Word it's on the right
 (21:18:10) mirek2: quoting from Alex Faaborg's notification redesign: "The message and the actions are often very far apart if the user has a wide monitor."
 (21:18:40) mirek2: that's a problem because when the user is done reading, his eyes have to skip all the way to the other end of the screen to see what options he has
 (21:19:11) cbosdonnat: mirek2, oh... in that case, why not change for sure
 (21:19:27) cbosdonnat: mirek2, that was mostly to keep consistence with other things
 (21:19:41) mirek2: I know Chrome aligns the action buttons to the left
 (21:20:05) mirek2: and Gnome is really inconsistent with the other implementations -- it stacks the buttons vertically
 (21:20:48) astron247: cbosdonnat: is there a way to see the action bar currently, without having to set up servers etc.?
 (21:21:25) cbosdonnat: astron247, no as there is no other case where those are used
 (21:21:38) cbosdonnat: astron247, or you can try with cloudoku.com
 (21:21:46) cbosdonnat: astron247, it's a Google Docs CMIS wrapper
 (21:22:08) cbosdonnat: but I'm not sure it supports checkout feature
 (21:22:15) astron247: ok
 (21:22:29) cbosdonnat: from what I know cloudoku support has to be fixed (on the LO side)
 (21:22:37) mirek2: b) if I remember correctly, your infobar had one action button and an "X" to dismiss
 (21:22:59) mirek2: it's good practice to have another action button for declining
 (21:23:23) mirek2: the "X" to dismiss button is there for people who just don't want to deal with the infobar, don't even want to read it
 (21:23:37) mirek2: and thus it makes sense to display on the right-hand side
 (21:24:13) mirek2: for illustration, see this Chrome notification bar: [[14]]
 (21:24:35) mirek2: or see my specification [[15]] :)
 (21:25:16) mirek2: that should be easy, though, I bet -- adding a decline button
 (21:27:05) mirek2: I'll send you all this stuff by e-mail, that's all I wanted to discuss
 (21:27:50) mirek2: unless anyone else has anything to add, perhaps we should get back to the topic of gallery contents and finish up
 (21:28:32) alexanderW: I'll also mail the suggestion to keep the original ratios, ok?
 (21:29:02) mirek2: sure, go ahead
 (21:29:27) cbosdonnat: mirek2, I have nothing to add... but news from the gallery content ;)
 (21:30:41) mirek2: well, since OpenClipart has pretty bad artwork, and it would be impossible to find a consistent-looking quality set, I was about to propose that we partner up with the noun project instead
 (21:31:01) mirek2: this could go several ways
 (21:31:42) mirek2: A) we simply choose and bundle some CC0/PD art from tnp.com
 (21:31:46) astron247: i guess we cant be too picky about the cliparts.
 (21:31:54) cbosdonnat: FYI: [[16]]
 (21:32:10) mirek2: great! :)
 (21:32:16) astron247: big +1
 (21:32:49) alexanderW: Does that also remove it from the Insert menu?
 (21:33:27) astron247: looks like it.
 (21:33:36) alexanderW: nice
 (21:34:02) alexanderW: mirek2: What would be B)?
 (21:34:48) mirek2: B) tnp.com shows interest in LibreOffice as a potential way to make money and invests in coding the LibreOffice gallery (with support for online repositories)
 (21:35:01) mirek2: obviously, B is controversial
 (21:35:36) astron247: oh my. really?
 (21:35:59) mirek2: the idea would be that parties would be able to sell artwork through the gallery as long as it's creative commons
 (21:36:15) astron247: and you spoke to them already?
 (21:36:22) mirek2: no, of course not
 (21:36:27) astron247: oh ok
 (21:36:32) mirek2: it's just an idea
 (21:37:06) alexanderW: A sounds more feasible
 (21:37:11) astron247: the one thing about tnp is that what they have isnt what people expect as clip art – its very functional and single-coloured
 (21:38:18) mirek2: yes, but it can be used as clipart as well
 (21:38:46) mirek2: I'd argue that, when used as clipart, the quality of the work produced tends to be much better than with traditional clipart
 (21:39:02) astron247: sure, but most people will say meh to it.
 (21:39:23) mirek2: especially when the user has the ability to change the color, which is something we should let users do somehow
 (21:39:35) astron247: i am all for having a gallery of single coloured icons but we shouldnt expect everyone to share our taste...
 (21:39:49) mirek2: astron247: don't be presumptuous
 (21:40:35) mirek2: as said, we should let the user change the color
 (21:40:50) mirek2: and if the user wants colored pictures, a Google search should suffice
 (21:41:02) astron247: that again means that the gallery feature needs to be changed
 (21:41:30) mirek2: the gallery feature?
 (21:41:43) mirek2: how does it need to be changed?
 (21:42:08) astron247: what i meant was that the gallery code would have to be changed to do that
 (21:42:52) mirek2: I wasn't saying that we should integrate Google search into the gallery
 (21:42:54) alexanderW: Would that be worth the effort?
 (21:43:37) astron247: you said, you wanted the ability to recolour clip-art
 (21:43:44) mirek2: I just meant that if a person wants an image, we're very unlikely to have it in our gallery and he will use a search engine
 (21:44:08) mirek2: astron247: well, the ideal solution would simply be to allow the user to edit SVG images
 (21:44:25) alexanderW: within e.g. Writer?
 (21:44:56) mirek2: yes
 (21:45:21) cbosdonnat: anyway, the gallery UI needs to be changed too
 (21:45:33) cbosdonnat: but that's another big job ;)
 (21:45:51) mirek2: yes
 (21:46:07) mirek2: that's also one of the motivators behind suggestion B
 (21:48:28) mirek2: suggestion B would basically involve thenounproject.com getting behind the gallery
 (21:48:39) cbosdonnat: mirek2, if you start thinking about a new gallery ui, then it would be nice to think of it as a stencil library (a bit like in Visio)
 (21:49:30) mirek2: hm, never used visio
 (21:50:11) mirek2: ideally, I would like for the gallery and the insert image dialog to be merged
 (21:50:29) mirek2: Google Docs does something similar
 (21:50:46) astron247: i was just about to write "like on google?"...
 (21:50:47) mirek2: [[17]]
 (21:50:57) mirek2: :)
 (21:52:23) mirek2: anyway, I think working with tnp.com could be beneficial for everyone, if we keep the gallery open for other open-source/CreativeCommons repositories as well
 (21:52:53) mirek2: and if the user has the option to hide commercial stuff
 (21:53:24) mirek2: on the other hand, maybe having paid (yet still open-source) elements in LibreOffice is going too far?
 (21:53:54) alexanderW: I think so
 (21:54:09) astron247: well, you only need to pay if you dont want to give attribution
 (21:54:19) astron247: (well, okay, i see how that is bad)
 (21:55:29) astron247: btw, i am currently trying to make a list of clip art on openclipart that i dont find terrible: delicious.com/astron/
 (21:55:31) mirek2: I don't think that's bad as long as we communicate the licenses clearly
 (21:56:41) mirek2: astron247: it's not hard to find non-terrible clip art there, it's hard to find lots of non-terrible clip art of the same style
 (21:57:15) astron247: we wont succeed with that, i know
 (21:59:19) mirek2: btw, if we do take stuff from openclipart, we should select items with a transparent background
 (21:59:50) astron247: well, we'll have to edit them a bit anyway
 (22:00:16) astron247: given how our new svg engine might not support everything
 (22:00:51) mirek2: alright
 (22:01:14) mirek2: so not partnering with tnp.com for now, I suppose?
 (22:01:58) alexanderW: I  guess the selection of openclipart is enough for now
 (22:02:36) astron247: you can take stuff from there, and it would be good if we had some things from there, but i am not sure if you can get them interested in libo
 (22:03:38) mirek2: they were looking for a way to make money (hence the payments, which they introduced not too long ago), LibreOffice could bring in a sizeable audience
 (22:03:57) astron247: ok
 (22:04:09) mirek2: should I try to contact them?
 (22:04:34) mirek2: (of course, you'd need to check with the ESC first)
 (22:05:04) astron247: in this case, maybe you better check yourself
 (22:05:07) astron247: ?
 (22:05:39) mirek2: through the ux-advise mailing list?
 (22:07:16) astron247: why dont you check if they have any interst at all, and then go through someone like michael/thorsten/whoever
 (22:07:30) mirek2: alright, sure
 (22:08:43) mirek2: would both of you agree to merge the insert picture dialog and the gallery in the future?
 (22:09:20) alexanderW: insert picture is a normal file dialog, I wouldnt trade it for a custom one
 (22:10:02) mirek2: alright, just checking
 (22:10:33) mirek2: but we may have this discussion again if/when we're redesigning the gallery :)
 (22:10:41) alexanderW: probably
 (22:11:13) mirek2: ok, I'm out of topics
 (22:11:21) mirek2: anything else to discuss?
 (22:11:45) alexanderW: I wanted to ask Björn something
 (22:11:55) mirek2: which one?
 (22:12:02) alexanderW: ?
 (22:12:20) mirek2: Balazs or Michaelsen?
 (22:12:27) alexanderW: ah, Michaelsen
 (22:12:39) alexanderW: cbosdonnat: Is he around?
 (22:13:00) cbosdonnat: alexanderW, Sweetshark is around, talking
 (22:13:37) cbosdonnat: alexanderW, he is coming
 (22:13:46) alexanderW: great
 (22:17:57) alexanderW: *Just talking to him on *-dev
 (22:21:38) mirek2: could you insert the whole conversation into the log afterwards, pls?
 (22:22:34) alexanderW: Sure
 (22:22:42) Medieval hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Quit: Page closed).
 (22:30:17) alexanderW: Are we done?
 (22:32:41) mirek2: yes, I think so
 (22:32:49) mirek2: would you like to upload the log?
 (22:34:03) mirek2: (given that you'll be uploading the log of your conversation with Bjoern from #libreoffice-dev)
 (22:37:01) alexanderW: yes
 (22:38:37) mirek2: ok, great
 (22:49:25) mirek2 hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Quit: Page closed).
 (22:53:29) alexanderW: bye. everyone. Have a nice weekend
 (23:06:02) astron247: bye
 (23:35:42) astron247 hat den Raum verlassen.

#libreoffice-dev

(22:04:31) Das Thema für #libreoffice-dev ist: This is the LibreOffice DEVELOPER channel, user questions and discussions about bugs without code: #libreoffice, bugs: [[18]] | master used for LO-4.0 | 3.6.3 and 4.0.0.alpha1 are out | [[19]] | Use [[20]] for build logs | dev list: libreoffice@lists.freedesktop.org

328: [[21]]
(22:06:32) alexanderW: Sweetshark ?
(22:12:46) ertai: alexanderW: not at his pc
(22:13:26) alexanderW: thanks
(22:14:17) Sweetshark: alexanderW: poOOong
(22:14:27) alexanderW: Good evening :9
(22:14:30) alexanderW: :)
(22:14:47) alexanderW: I have some questions regarding the Template git repo
(22:15:09) Sweetshark: alexanderW: shoot
(22:15:26) alexanderW: Would one need additional folders in order to add Calc & Writer templates?
(22:15:46) Sweetshark: alexanderW: lemme check how I set that stuff up ...
(22:15:56) alexanderW: And do I need to save them via a certain export filter to remove translatable string.
(22:16:57) alexanderW: IIRC, last time, someone used an xlst filter
(22:17:04) Sweetshark: alexanderW: yes, different folders would be good
(22:17:35) alexanderW: are certain names required?
(22:17:36) Sweetshark: alexanderW: if you add stuff there, I would adapt the Makefile (currently it only copies presentations)
(22:18:21) DuncanIdaho hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
(22:18:55) Sweetshark: alexanderW: that would only be a convention ... having them the same as in the final installation would be nice, but dont block on that.
(22:19:19) alexanderW: ah, I thought that was a requirement
(22:19:23) alexanderW: So I can simply add two folders 'writer' and 'calc'
(22:19:31) mirek2_ [59b0ae7b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.176.174.123] hat den Raum betreten.
(22:19:43) alexanderW: maybe 'draw' and put the new files there
(22:20:29) Sweetshark: renaming the folders doesnt hurt at all, so just take what is sensible. So I might move them to the names that are used in the installation, to keep things consistent.
(22:20:46) Sweetshark: alexanderW: yeah, great -- just go ahead.
(22:21:05) alexanderW: alright. And what about the XLST filter?
(22:21:43) alexanderW: Or can I simply uppload regular files without any modification? OTP, OTT, OTS
(22:22:32) Sweetshark: alexanderW: I wanted to add those anyway, but did find the time (for checking who is the original author to be credited etc.) ...
(22:23:02) Sweetshark: alexanderW: adding OTP, OTT, OTS should Just Work(tm).
(22:24:17) alexanderW: or Calc templates like timetables it would probably good to translate them...
(22:24:27) loirkerbot: LibreOffice (core) anistenis * wizards/com/sun/star/wizards/letter/ (LetterDocument.py LetterWizardDialogImpl.py): pyletter: Fix letterhead
(22:24:28) loirkerbot: LibreOffice (core) anistenis * wizards/com/sun/star/wizards/ (4 files in 4 dirs): pywizards: better us os.path
(22:24:28) loirkerbot: LibreOffice (core) anistenis * wizards/com/sun/star/wizards/ (5 files in 5 dirs): pywizards: sort lists again
(22:24:29) loirkerbot: LibreOffice (core) anistenis * wizards/com/sun/star/wizards/ (fax/FaxDocument.py text/TextFieldHandler.py): pywizards: fix textfields
(22:24:51) alexanderW: e.g. that income/expenses spreadsheets. Do I need to worry about that
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(22:24:53) alexanderW: ?
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(22:28:00) alexanderW: Sweetshark: Do I need to worry about translatablility?
(22:31:04) Sweetshark: alexanderW: the package does no translations at all. it would be great if the templates would thus be as universal as possible. However, if something is great, do not simply exclude it, because it would be even better with localization.
(22:34:47) alexanderW: So if we got some relly good ones which need localization we'll simply ask you how to proceed?
(22:37:28) alexanderW: Sweetshark: ^
(22:38:38) Sweetshark: alexanderW: for now I would just use an english/international version of those. In the end, localizing this is tricky: Installing one presentation template 100 times for 100 languages is not a good solution. Doing separate localized template builds is quite an effort.
(22:39:04) Sweetshark: s/builds/packages/
(22:39:43) alexanderW: Alright, we'll try to keep the number low
(22:39:56) alexanderW: Thanks for your answers
(22:40:27) Sweetshark: alexanderW: np, thanks for pushing this forward!
(22:42:06) MechtiIde hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
(22:42:31) alexanderW: Have a nice evening :)
(22:42:31) arnaud_versini hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
(22:48:27) Sweetshark: alexanderW: will do, same to you!
(22:49:22) mirek2_ hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Quit: Page closed).
(22:55:03) loirkerbot: LibreOffice (core) atimar * helpcontent2: Updated core
(22:55:04) loirkerbot: LibreOffice (help) atimar * source/text/shared/optionen/01140000.xhp: tdf#55909 add help for date acceptance patterns
(22:55:08) IZBot: LibreOffice-Documentation normal/medium RESOLVED FIXED LOCALHELP for Date Acceptance Patterns missing [tdf#55909]
(22:58:25) RaducuG [~RaducuG@79.112.47.157] hat den Raum betreten.
(23:00:56) Sweetshark: sberg: [[22]]
(23:01:27) sberg: Sweetshark, no thanks ;)
(23:05:52) eagles0513875 [eagles0513@gateway/shell/trekweb.org/x-lyrqeegjnbkxpumf] hat den Raum betreten.
(23:09:52) ***andreasma called Impress remote from inside of Impress 4.0-alpha and the dialog pops up but I could not close it. I can't close Impress and LibreOffice. I had to kill it (on openSuSE 12.1-x64).
(23:10:48) loirkerbot: LibreOffice (core) atimar * helpcontent2: Updated core
(23:10:49) loirkerbot: LibreOffice (help) atimar * source/text/shared/main0108.xhp: tdf#53902 add help text for Help - Send Feedback...
(23:10:52) IZBot: LibreOffice-Documentation normal/medium RESOLVED FIXED WIKIHELP: "Send feedback" item is missing on online help documentation: [tdf#53902]
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(23:23:31) erAck: quote of the day: "calc is not really a geometry program"
(23:26:40) loirkerbot: LibreOffice (core) sbergman * sfx2/source/dialog/filtergrouping.cxx: One DBG_ASSERT -> SAL_WARN_IF
(23:26:41) loirkerbot: LibreOffice (core) sbergman * (50 files in 19 dirs): Turn PDF import from bundled extension to plain code
(23:27:37) matus [~matus@adsl-dyn148.78-98-148.t-com.sk] hat den Raum betreten.
(23:28:06) Michael21 [~wecker@193-83-234-9.adsl.highway.telekom.at] hat den Raum betreten.
(23:28:25) Michael21: hello - why i get this message? [[23]]
(23:29:47) Michael21: Is this a error in libre config file?
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(23:35:43) Modus (+o mmeeks) von ChanServ
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(23:38:46) glosoli [~glosoli@78.63.245.161] hat den Raum betreten.
(23:39:19) glosoli: I have just seen in Softpedia that Alpha 1 of LibreOffice became available under Linux, that made me curious maybe there is Alpha 1 for macOS too ?
(23:40:24) erAck hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Quit: n8).
(23:41:34) andreasma: glosoli, [[24]]
(23:42:20) glosoli: andreasma: thanks for the link
(23:43:39) glosoli hat den Raum verlassen.
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(23:51:36) Michael21: Mr andreasma, you can read me?
(23:52:37) andreasma: Michael21, shure
(23:53:00) Michael21: you are german?
(23:53:44) mst__ hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
(23:53:56) andreasma: Michael21, this is an English channel.
(23:54:45) Michael21: ok - I get an error message, if i run the config script. Have you an idea why?
(23:54:52) mst__ [~mst@lhm246.muenchen.de] hat den Raum betreten.
(23:54:54) Michael21: [[25]]
(23:55:27) andreasma: Michael21, currently not, but I'm busy with other tasks.
(23:55:43) Michael21: ok - could I wait ?
(23:56:51) andreasma: wait for the other devs. They have more experience with the building than myself.
(23:57:09) Michael21: ok - thanks
(23:57:30) andreasma: I'm currently hacking on Plone stuff for LibreOffice/TDF.
(23:58:17) Michael21: Do you know a further libreoffice channel for help?
(23:59:05) meow27 [~meow27@c-65-96-174-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] hat den Raum betreten.
(23:59:12) andreasma: Michael21, that should be the best channel if you are looking for help in building.
(23:59:27) Michael21: ok
(25.11.2012 00:00:13) meow27 hat den Raum verlassen.
(00:00:14) andreasma: But many devs are currently hacking on stuff at the Munich Hackfest and are very busy.
(00:00:37) Michael21: oh
(00:00:45) Michael21: Are I am in danger *g*
(00:03:11) cbosdonnat: Michael21, are you building for mingw?
(00:03:14) Tribiasz hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Quit: Tribiasz).
(00:03:30) cbosdonnat: Michael21, what are you trying to build? master branch?
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(00:04:34) Michael21: libreoffice-core-3.6.4.1
(00:05:14) cbosdonnat: Michael21, you should better git clone the repository and build that
(00:05:26) cbosdonnat: Michael21, I guess you are building a src package, isn't it?
(00:05:43) Michael21: what is a glit clone?
(00:05:49) cbosdonnat: Michael21, [[26]]
(00:06:09) astron247 hat den Raum verlassen.
(00:06:19) cbosdonnat: Michael21, that page describes all the step to get your first build done
(00:06:35) cbosdonnat: Michael21, git is a distributed version control
(00:06:55) Michael21: Ok - i read this. But I have 50 hours worked if i can build a version
(00:08:04) Michael21: Please wait a minute - i will show you an error output of my correcty installation - I have no idea how i can solve this bug
(00:09:26) cbosdonnat: Michael21, I have no idea how to get the source package to build, the upstream sources are much easier to build and hack
(00:09:45) Michael21: [[27]]
(00:10:32) Michael21: You are right - this is a challange for me.
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(00:27:42) Michael21: Who have a Idea, where is the problem [[28]] ?
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(00:33:50) cbosdonnat: Michael21, it looks like the source packages are split
(00:33:58) cbosdonnat: Michael21, and of course there are some missing bits
(00:34:48) cbosdonnat: Michael21, really grab the sources as described on the wiki: you'll gain a lot of time
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