Agenda + Minutes
Content from the meeting itself ("the minutes") will be displayed in blue boxes like this.
Before we Start
A few minutes before we officially start, we'll try to have a few people in the IRC channel:
We'll touch on a few metrics such as UNCONFIRMED bug count and regressions, and then we'll have each person in the meeting bring up whatever QA topics they'd like to address.
Some people like the current meeting time on Wednesdays, but if there's enough interest in change, we'll do it.
(we'll just discuss stats in the meeting)
Completed ACTION Items
Pending ACTION Items (and topics)
- State of multimedia testing for Windows (Small follow-up required re: Windows testing (SVG, ODG, PDF))
- ACTION Items:
- ACTION: File an enhancement request for a script that normalizes and diffs two user profiles (mjayfrancis)
- ACTION: Make a simple page of things new QA should be aware of (jphilipz)
- Has some stuff drafted in a Google doc.
- (Q: What's the URL for that doc again?)
- ACTION: Follow-up re: LibreLadies, t-shirts, mailing list, and possible Grace Hopper Hackfest (bubli, colonelqubit)
- ACTION: Work on wiki page for ODF formats/comparison (DennisRoczek) --> stuff started, see Comparison of ODF software.
- ACTION: Investigate creating email list from editors of BHS wiki page (to announce future events) (DennisRoczek) --> send by mail. Now ActionItem of colonelqubit
- ACTION: Work on some graphics, visual stats, etc for us to use at the next BHS in conjunction with live updates on IRC & twitter (beluga)
- ACTION fix EasyHacks table at Development/Easy_Hacks#A_few_random_EasyHacks (colonelqubit)
(05:14:17 AM) colonelqubit: #startmeeting
(05:14:18 AM) IZBot: Meeting started Wed Jan 27 13:14:47 2016 UTC. The chair is colonelqubit. Plugin info at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
(05:14:19 AM) IZBot: Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
(05:14:26 AM) colonelqubit: Hello, hello
(05:14:37 AM) colonelqubit: UNCONFIRMED bugs are down to 606
(05:15:41 AM) colonelqubit: I've heard from just a couple of people re: bugs that should be escalated to the ESC
(05:16:22 AM) colonelqubit: And I got some good feedback and made some nice contacts (especially in education) at the SCALE conference in California this past week
(05:17:17 AM) sophi: colonelqubit: great for your contacts :) I'm not sure there is an ESC tomorrow, as everybody will be at the hackfest
(05:17:29 AM) colonelqubit: sophi: ah yes, that makes sense
(05:18:06 AM) colonelqubit: sophi: if not, that's fine -- we can punt those bugs until next week
(05:18:49 AM) sophi: ok
(05:19:37 AM) colonelqubit: sophi: I've noted a number of persisting mail merge bugs. I don't use that particular feature extensively, but are you seeing any issues in our latest builds?
(05:21:17 AM) sophi: colonelqubit: didn't followed that topic, sorry, but I've not seen much feedback on the lists about it
(05:21:43 AM) DennisRoczek: beluga_away: mentioned a bug yesterday (actually a duplicate of one of jmux reported bugs)
(05:21:58 AM) colonelqubit: DennisRoczek: something particularly bad?
(05:22:32 AM) IZBot: News from tdfnew: [Bug 97393] English Dictionaries update - 2016 <https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=97393>
(05:23:22 AM) colonelqubit: sophi: Here's the link: http://bit.ly/1POJrmp
(05:23:39 AM) colonelqubit: 7 open (6 in NEW) mail merge regressions
(05:23:49 AM) DennisRoczek: a crash, lemme check my logs
(05:23:56 AM) ***colonelqubit nods
(05:24:39 AM) DennisRoczek: #97287 and tdf#90185
(05:24:42 AM) IZBot: LibreOffice-Writer major/high NEW Writer crashes just as Mailmerge begins to send the first email. https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=90185
(05:25:53 AM) colonelqubit: DennisRoczek: 90185 is on that list; 97287 is not
(05:27:18 AM) DennisRoczek: you're welcome
(05:27:24 AM) colonelqubit: :-)
(05:28:02 AM) sophi: colonelqubit: the jmux one should be the last of your list #96914
(05:28:05 AM) IZBot: LibreOffice-Writer normal/medium UNCONFIRMED MAILMERGE crash on first run after DB registration https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=96914
(05:28:25 AM) colonelqubit: DennisRoczek: looks like beluga has at least mentioned 97287 on 90185; if it's confirmed and not a dupe, I'll make sure to bring it up to ESC
(05:29:22 AM) ***colonelqubit really wishes we could avoid more regressions through unit tests
(05:30:01 AM) colonelqubit: let's take a look at the pending items
(05:30:04 AM) colonelqubit: #topic Pending Items
(05:30:05 AM) DennisRoczek: colonelqubit: write more unit tests :-D
(05:30:05 AM) IZBot has changed the topic to: Pending Items
(05:30:11 AM) DennisRoczek: oh some for you ^^
(05:31:17 AM) colonelqubit: DennisRoczek: (re: Unit Tests) -- yeah, at some point it probably makes a lot of sense to try to stop the bleeding from starting (via tests) than to just sop up the lost blood (by triaging bugs)
(05:31:35 AM) DennisRoczek: \offtopic /me is doing a great comparison on Calc/Apple's iWork Numbers function names (see https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Functions_comparison_of_LibreOffice_Calc_and_Numbers )
(05:32:43 AM) DennisRoczek: colonelqubit: well as some devs say: every bug / regression fix should include a tests for not introducing yet another the same test
(05:32:43 AM) colonelqubit: DennisRoczek: is that related to your work comparing ODF software?
(05:32:49 AM) jmux: sophi, DennisRoczek: my bug is not directly mail merge related. There is already a fix for it in private/jmux/mm-cleanup
(05:32:57 AM) DennisRoczek: and depending on our frameworks, it shouldn't be so hard to get more tests in
(05:33:11 AM) DennisRoczek: (btw: do we take part of google code-in?)
(05:33:13 AM) sophi: jmux: ok, thanks
(05:33:27 AM) colonelqubit: jmux: great to hear!
(05:33:40 AM) DennisRoczek: colonelqubit: totally unrelated. but I need to check iWorks if it finally is able to export/import ODF stuff
(05:34:08 AM) colonelqubit: DennisRoczek: I'd be very interested to hear your results
(05:34:34 AM) colonelqubit: obviously understanding what's out there in the ODF ecosystem is important
(05:34:37 AM) DennisRoczek: but it was fun (and will be fun for the rest) to check which spreadsheet software is isuperior in which area
(05:34:39 AM) DennisRoczek: we won :-p
(05:34:40 AM) jmux: And while testing stuff, I even found more bugs. I actually stopped opening new reports and just continued fixing the stuff I found. The patchset is already 25 patches long
(05:34:48 AM) steve-_-2 [~Adium@22.214.171.124] entered the room.
(05:35:09 AM) colonelqubit: if iWorks is struggling (or disagreeing) about how to handle ODF, then that's something that we should perhaps investigate
(05:35:45 AM) DennisRoczek: colonelqubit: scroll to the bottom of the link i gave: simple calculation + bug ticket in the introduction for dtardon ^^
(05:35:59 AM) DennisRoczek: colonelqubit: well apple is crap
(05:36:03 AM) DennisRoczek: no odf :-(
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(05:37:02 AM) DennisRoczek: well at least in iWork. in textedit and finder there is odf support -.-
(05:37:33 AM) colonelqubit: DennisRoczek: a few years back when I asked people on the Apple forums whether Pages supported ODF and open standards, I got rather bellicose "The file format is XML! It's open -- just read it yourself" responses
(05:37:55 AM) DennisRoczek: colonelqubit: that WAS true. now it is binary
(05:38:17 AM) colonelqubit: DennisRoczek: the fact that the "premier"/most office-suite-like stuff is the one that *doesn't* support ODF is absolutely hilarious
(05:38:46 AM) colonelqubit: I will definitely make sure to let everyone know about that the next time I give a talk
(05:39:34 AM) colonelqubit: DennisRoczek: we should wrap up the digression (although we are riffing on one of your pending items ;-), but is the binary format documented, or just some internal, proprietary thing?
(05:40:45 AM) DennisRoczek: colonelqubit: give me until tomorrow night. I do want to do some further tests regarding macOS
(05:40:52 AM) DennisRoczek: then I give you material to fire
(05:41:00 AM) ***colonelqubit nods
(05:41:46 AM) colonelqubit: thanks!
(05:42:22 AM) colonelqubit: DennisRoczek: so to the topic at hand: Do you think that 'Comparison of ODF Software' should live under ODF/ somewhere?
(05:43:25 AM) DennisRoczek: well we have multiple comparison pages. no. i do not think so. moreover we have Category:ODF and it is linked on ODF under see also, too
(05:43:25 AM) sophi: colonelqubit: it's more 'coverage of ODF implementation' no?
(05:43:33 AM) DennisRoczek: sophi: not at this stage
(05:43:54 AM) DennisRoczek: for that you best talk to the devs of the ODF test suites
(05:44:05 AM) DennisRoczek: (the Netherland guys, I always miss the name(s))
(05:44:13 AM) DennisRoczek: or was it dutch?
(05:44:32 AM) sophi: DennisRoczek: Jos
(05:45:09 AM) colonelqubit: DennisRoczek: sure, and for the comparison pages, maybe they could all live under some hierarchy? (if they fit together at all...)
(05:46:09 AM) DennisRoczek: thx
(05:46:25 AM) colonelqubit: It's like with the BugHunting Sessions -- I was thinking that instead of having each one be a top-level page (BugHunting_Session_126.96.36.199), we could have (BugHunting_Sessions/188.8.131.52)
(05:46:47 AM) DennisRoczek: colonelqubit: how do you want to map them together? Comparison/LibreOffice_vs.MSO?
(05:47:00 AM) DennisRoczek: colonelqubit: how do you want to map them together? Comparison/ODF_software?
(05:47:08 AM) sophi: colonelqubit: yes, you're right, that's more logical and easier to find
(05:47:30 AM) DennisRoczek: Marketing/comparison/OPC_software ?
(05:47:34 AM) DennisRoczek: *ODF
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(05:48:15 AM) colonelqubit: DennisRoczek: hmm...they seem somewhat disparate
(05:48:41 AM) colonelqubit: DennisRoczek: if some hierarchy doesn't lend itself well, perhaps a sidebar or horizontal bar, like Wikipedia uses for a number of articles in a category?
(05:49:33 AM) colonelqubit: DennisRoczek: Most of these comparison pages are pretty accessible by the userbase, I believe?
(05:49:35 AM) DennisRoczek: it's all possible. simply say (at best with an en.wikipedia example) what you want
(05:49:49 AM) DennisRoczek: hopefully they are
(05:50:31 AM) colonelqubit: DennisRoczek: My biggest concern is that we'll have pages with good content that don't get used or viewed much, because there's no strong path to find them
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(05:51:02 AM) ***DennisRoczek hopes on google :-p
(05:51:49 AM) colonelqubit: Let's see -- I haven't had a chance to look at that BHS stuff yet. Thanks for that, Dennis!
(05:52:01 AM) DennisRoczek: colonelqubit: well my function comparison was mostly because I do will implement the Numbers function mapping the week after the next as it seems (just got the framework from dtardon https://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/libetonyek/commit/src?id=e54e5817f7d56a5fac0e0dac2f1cfd1255355e44
(05:52:03 AM) IZBot: libetonyek - allow to map function names
(05:52:03 AM) DennisRoczek: ^^
(05:52:32 AM) DennisRoczek: brb
(05:52:36 AM) IZBot: News from tdfnew: [Bug 97394] Format a sheet section CLEAR Function <https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=97394>
(05:56:12 AM) colonelqubit: DennisRoczek: I'm taking at look at the EasyHacks page as well --> you mentioned having trouble there previously?
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(05:59:18 AM) colonelqubit: DennisRoczek: yeah, looks like the Keywords piece is what's not working. IIRC I also ran into some caching issues with that plugin previously
(06:00:11 AM) colonelqubit: #topic New Items
(06:00:12 AM) IZBot has changed the topic to: New Items
(06:00:29 AM) colonelqubit: sophi: You mentioned investigating a new time for the QA meeting
(06:01:08 AM) colonelqubit: (it's a perennial problem)
(06:01:17 AM) sophi: colonelqubit: yes, I think it's too early and maybe we should find a later time in the day to gather more team members
(06:01:24 AM) ***colonelqubit nods
(06:02:18 AM) colonelqubit: I'll send out an email with a link to one of those meeting-time-pickers
(06:02:25 AM) colonelqubit: sophi: How late is too late for Europe?
(06:03:55 AM) sophi: I think it would be past 9 PM UTC
(06:04:01 AM) ***colonelqubit nods
(06:05:06 AM) DennisRoczek: re, colonelqubit: well I have no clue how the plugin needs the keywords provided (in contrast to the whiteboads keywords)
(06:05:24 AM) colonelqubit: I'd suggest that we keep it to a weekday, as well
(06:05:27 AM) DennisRoczek: dunno about the caching. it simply doesn't work
(06:05:52 AM) colonelqubit: DennisRoczek: I'll dig into the code
(06:05:55 AM) DennisRoczek: colonelqubit: weekday is bad for me.
(06:06:06 AM) sophi: colonelqubit: yes I agree
(06:06:12 AM) DennisRoczek: 19 utc+1 infra call and de-call sometimes
(06:06:25 AM) DennisRoczek: at 20:00utc+1 I'm away (always)
(06:06:27 AM) colonelqubit: DennisRoczek: did you say you have a test VM for that wiki?
(06:07:04 AM) DennisRoczek: we have a testwiki, but not configured. no db etc. alex is doing it at fosdem so i can finally test the upgrade (this is important)
(06:07:36 AM) colonelqubit: DennisRoczek: ah ok, that might make it faster to identify and fix
(06:08:30 AM) colonelqubit: DennisRoczek: if we don't do weekend, what day(s) of the week would work well for you?
(06:09:01 AM) DennisRoczek: well for what?
(06:09:09 AM) DennisRoczek: oh i see
(06:09:22 AM) DennisRoczek: friday is bad. all other days should work mostly
(06:09:41 AM) DennisRoczek: (so mo, th, tu,)
(06:09:42 AM) sophi: colonelqubit: but it's important that the time fits for you too
(06:09:51 AM) colonelqubit: sophi: oh, definitely
(06:10:38 AM) colonelqubit: :-)
(06:12:14 AM) colonelqubit: Okay, I've got some good rough parameters for meeting times. We'll look Mon-Thu from say 14:00 UTC - 20:00 UTC
(06:12:44 AM) colonelqubit: And I'll block-off TDF and ESC call times
(06:13:14 AM) colonelqubit: #action Set up doodle for new QA Meeting time
(06:13:22 AM) sophi: colonelqubit: I've no meetings on Tuesday, it's the only day of the week, and Wednesday is impossible
(06:13:51 AM) DennisRoczek: colonelqubit: how about the pending actions regarding BHS? have you all information you need?
(06:13:51 AM) colonelqubit: sophi: so you'd prefer Tues, or would like to keep it clear?
(06:14:16 AM) sophi: colonelqubit: Tues is ok, no problem, it's fully available :)
(06:14:24 AM) ***colonelqubit nods
(06:14:36 AM) colonelqubit: DennisRoczek: I think I have info -- I'll email you if I have additional q's
(06:16:22 AM) colonelqubit: Looks like our time is about up.
(06:16:31 AM) colonelqubit: Any other New Items?
(06:18:17 AM) colonelqubit: Okay, that wraps it up!
(06:19:34 AM) colonelqubit: Thanks for attending. Our next meeting will be tentatively... February 10th, unless we change it based on that Doodle
(06:20:00 AM) colonelqubit: hopefully we get a good number of responses!
(06:20:02 AM) colonelqubit: #endmeeting
(06:20:06 AM) DennisRoczek: i didn't get a mail
(06:20:39 AM) colonelqubit: DennisRoczek: mail?
(06:21:07 AM) DennisRoczek: ups. I should read correctly
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(06:30:32 AM) ***colonelqubit hmms
(06:30:53 AM) ***colonelqubit wonders if IZbot will close the meeting...
(06:31:07 AM) DennisRoczek: colonelqubit: izbot left
(06:31:22 AM) DennisRoczek: cloph seems to have still no stable internet connection
(06:31:23 AM) colonelqubit: DennisRoczek: right, but it left *after* the meeting was over
(06:31:29 AM) DennisRoczek: lemme ping him (by telegram)
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(06:31:45 AM) colonelqubit: well, we can try by IRC first? :-)
(06:32:03 AM) DennisRoczek: colonelqubit: nope, he is on the way to fosdem atm
(06:32:12 AM) ***colonelqubit shrugs
(06:32:17 AM) DennisRoczek: maybe by phone he can reconnect izbot
(06:32:26 AM) colonelqubit: okay, I might just jam all of the minutes into the wiki for now, to hedge bets
(06:34:12 AM) beluga_: DennisRoczek: the OpenIndiana packager's schedule did not synch with the FOSDEM hackfest.. I told him to ambush some build-savvy LibreOfficial
(06:34:42 AM) DennisRoczek: beluga_: well two hackfests then :-p
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(06:47:46 AM) DennisRoczek: colonelqubit: what is the new "proposedEasyHack"?
(06:48:08 AM) colonelqubit: DennisRoczek: something completely non-intuitive, IIRC
(06:48:13 AM) colonelqubit: needsDevEval, maybe?
(06:48:16 AM) DennisRoczek: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=97348
(06:48:45 AM) DennisRoczek: ok, updated
(06:48:53 AM) colonelqubit: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/describekeywords.cgi
(06:49:04 AM) ***colonelqubit shakes his head
(06:49:38 AM) beluga_: DennisRoczek: yeah that proposed one is old and abandoned
(06:49:42 AM) colonelqubit: it's like those showers that have hidden mechanisms that are not intuitive at all
(06:50:07 AM) colonelqubit: Don't you want me to get clean, shower!!??
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(06:50:41 AM) DennisRoczek: colonelqubit: do we use still whiteboards for anything?
(06:50:42 AM) colonelqubit: Probably an intentional speed bump: Make it difficult for people to proposed Easy Hacks, and you don't have every yokel doing it
(06:50:55 AM) colonelqubit: DennisRoczek: let's see...some random notes, target:X.y.z
(06:51:17 AM) DennisRoczek: needsDevEval [use sparingly] This bug needs review by a dev as a potential Easy Hack. Search 503 ==> [use sparingly] = 503 ?!? wtf?
(06:51:49 AM) colonelqubit: good place to test out an idea before proposing we add a Keyword
(06:52:04 AM) colonelqubit: DennisRoczek: yeah, probably needs some dev attention
(06:52:16 AM) colonelqubit: (the 503 number)
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(06:52:35 AM) steve-_-2: colonelqubit: greetings. any timeline for the bz 5 update or vm testing of the same?
(06:52:47 AM) colonelqubit: steve-_-2: heya, good to hear from you!
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(06:53:58 AM) colonelqubit: steve-_-2: no dates set, afaik
(06:54:25 AM) steve-_-2: ah ok, rough time suggestion was jan 2016, so rather feb / march?
(06:54:31 AM) steve-_-2: no hurry for that change anyways
(06:54:33 AM) steve-_-2: just asking
(06:54:36 AM) ***colonelqubit nods
(06:54:51 AM) colonelqubit: steve-_-2: yep, yeps
(06:55:39 AM) steve-_-2: what about unittests briefly discussed during meetup? are those in place and created for regressions that where again fixed=
(06:55:42 AM) steve-_-2: ?
(06:56:42 AM) colonelqubit: steve-_-2: there's encouragement to create unit tests whenever a bug is fixed or feature implemented, and especially when a regression has been removed
(06:57:27 AM) steve-_-2: colonelqubit: ok, guess we all agree that's the route to take.
(06:57:38 AM) colonelqubit: however AFAIK there's no policy that requires it, even for regressions
(06:58:55 AM) steve-_-2: are regressions a thing that devs have their eyes on, generally speaking? with over 700 regressions, it looks a bit like there could be stronger focus on that area?
(06:59:49 AM) colonelqubit: moggi was a big proponent of improved testing/test coverage, but it seems like the history of the codebase makes it tough to move towards consistent test-driven development
(07:00:25 AM) steve-_-2: colonelqubit: sounds logical. so first clean up historic code chaos?
(07:01:47 AM) colonelqubit: steve-_-2: one of the challenges is that there's also new development taking place, so some of it is trying to hit a moving target
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(07:03:20 AM) ***colonelqubit peers suspiciously at IZBot
(07:03:21 AM) DennisRoczek: colonelqubit: close the meeting again
(07:03:46 AM) steve-_-2: yes, LO is really painful to develop. I take my hat off to all devs. frustration is guaranteed at several points...
(07:03:49 AM) colonelqubit: Here. Goes. Nothing....
(07:03:51 AM) colonelqubit: #endmeeting
(07:04:02 AM) ***colonelqubit crosses his fingers
(07:04:11 AM) DennisRoczek: nope
(07:04:27 AM) DennisRoczek: cloph: any hope that izbot does close the meeting now :-p
(07:05:02 AM) steve-_-2: lol
(07:05:16 AM) steve-_-2: so my random ramblings will go into the history of LO QA meetups
(07:05:17 AM) steve-_-2: °/
(07:05:30 AM) ***colonelqubit makes the sound of the hyperdrive trying to spin up and failing....
(07:05:39 AM) colonelqubit: PEW...Pew...pew
(07:06:16 AM) colonelqubit: steve-_-2: yeah, it'll be preserved forever, just like Han Solo in that carbonite
(07:08:05 AM) beluga_: DennisRoczek: LibO has never tried to get into Google code-in
(07:08:46 AM) beluga_: perhaps next time, if janIV has managed to organize the mentoring side more
(07:11:10 AM) DennisRoczek: beluga_: oh really? create simple tests would be easy. even for stuff that now fails...
(07:11:14 AM) DennisRoczek: (rtegression)
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(07:11:33 AM) beluga_: DennisRoczek: well even QA and such non-coding tasks are allowed
(07:11:47 AM) beluga_: bug triaging etc.. like we did with KDE
(07:12:06 AM) ***beluga_ goes to basement
(07:12:15 AM) DennisRoczek: i know, but such tasks also help to get really fresh blood into the community
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(07:31:18 AM) IZBot: News from tdfnew: [Bug 97397] When adding a caption to an image, an extra space is added <https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=97397>
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(08:52:45 AM) colonelqubit: IZBot: ping
(08:52:46 AM) IZBot: pong
(08:52:53 AM) ***colonelqubit sighs
(08:52:58 AM) colonelqubit: Let's try again..
(08:53:00 AM) colonelqubit: #endmeeting
(08:53:56 AM) beluga_: IZbot is filibustering this meeting
(08:54:03 AM) colonelqubit: IZBot: y u not remember me?
(08:54:30 AM) steve-_-1: the day the bots went to strike…