QA/Meetings/2013/April 10

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    Meeting of the QA Team

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    Date and Time (UTC) 2013-04-10 18:00 UTC (New date/time. See #Prep)
    Chair Bjoern Michaelsen
    Secretary Robinson Tryon
    Started 14:07
    Adjourned 15:12
    Participants Bjoern, Florian R, Petr, Robinson, SteveBell


    • Originally slated for April 5 at 13:00 UTC, but due to scheduling issues for Joel was moved to April 10th, 2013 at 18:00 UTC.
    • Joel has suggested that we try an IRC-only meeting again this week, as we had good participation last week. Thoughts? (please sign your comments)

    Agenda + Minutes


    Content from the meeting itself ("the minutes") will be displayed in blue boxes like this.


    • Meeting started at: 14:07
    • Participants: Bjoern, Florian R, Petr, Robinson, SteveBell

    Meeting opened a little late as we were waiting for more people to join. SteveBell joined partway through the meeting.

    Pending Action Items

    PENDING ITEM: Attachments on FDO (Auto default)

    • [DONE] ACTION: Bjoern is going to ask Tollef if he could use some help with FDO management, we understand he's really busy but we have some small tasks that probably could be done on our side if right permissions were given.
    • Attachments now work properly
    • Tollef had some issues with implementing an extension (?)
    • ACTION: Bjoern will follow-up with Tollef re: FDO management


    • ACTION: Joel will investigate email option and hopefully move forward with closing bugs soon
    • PUNT until Joel can present results

    PENDING ITEM: Documentation for Localized French BSA

    • [SUPERSEDED] ACTION: Robinson will get in touch with Sophie to see if we need a QA wiki page describing procedures with new BSA. If we do, he will coordinate with her to write one
      • March 28 - Robinson: Emailed sophie
      • April 9 - Robinson: Talked to Rob about BSA page refactoring and stubbed-in new section QA/BSA#Localization.
    • Robinson: Gave short report.
    • ACTION: Robinson will talk with Rob and Sophie about the draft language for administration of localized BSAs, and add new Action Items as necessary.

    PENDING ITEM: Contest Swag

    • [DONE] ACTION: Joel and Robinson will shop around for prices for things such as laptop cases, tshirts
      • Robinson: Emailed US-Marketing (cc'd BoD, Developers) regarding the possibility for a bulk purchase of swag/merchandise.
        • Result: Very little interest in group/bulk purchase of swag.
      • Regarding funding of prizes, Michael Meeks writes: "The plan is to encourage SPI to fund this - which should be no issue."
      • Did some pricing work, see #Swag Pricing below.
    • [DONE] ACTION: Petr will talk to Kendy about anything we might currently have available but Joel thinks that it is quite limited currently, our stock of stuff is depleted.
    • Robinson gave update
    • We'll need more info from Joel
    • ACTION: Robinson and Joel will make a shopping list (with numbers of items and prices) that can be passed along to the BoD.

    PENDING ITEM: What to do with FDO bugs filed against Extensions, Templates

    • [SUPERSEDED] AGREED: Move discussion to email, try to find consensus, if not vote to decide
      • Question: no ACTION item for this topic? (or does 'AGREED' imply something similar?)
    • No clear consensus. See #Extension Bugs below.
    • ACTION: Keep discussing on lists.

    PENDING ITEM: Certified QA Team

    • ACTION: Joel will contact web team about this
    • PUNT until Joel can present results

    PENDING ITEM: Talkyoo Problem

    • [DONE] ACTION: Everyone will look at alternatives
    • [DONE] ACTION: Petr will investigate problem with Talkyoo
    • Talkyoo works well enough for now.
    • Petr (?): On some phones we had problems getting the call to work
    • Google+ works (see Talkyoo#Connecting from your computer)
    • Bjoern: I still like mumble (good audio quality, etc..) and we should consider it if we move to a computer-only system.
    • Ed. note: SteveBell had some troubles connecting to the call for this QA Meeting. The first time he tried to connect using Skype. The 2nd time he tried to call the Hamburg number, but got a busy signal. On the 3rd try, he called the Munich number and was connected. SteveBell is going to give a quick report to Floeff (as requested).

    New Action Items

    NEW ITEM: If we're going to stick with Talkyoo, do more people need the admin access code to open the call? (Robinson)

    • No problems during actual meetings so far, but couldn't open a call to test on April 3rd
    • April 5 - Joel now has the access code.
    • AGREED: Now that Joel and Florian R. have the admin code, we're probably covered.

    NEW ITEM: Should we activate voting on FDO? (Steve Bell)

    • Bug: tdf#37141 - BUGTRACKER: Please enable "Voting" in the LibreOffice Bugtracker - NEW
    • Where does QA stand on this/Should we tell devs that we support the idea?
    • Discussion boils down to "Voting doesn't mean anything" vs. "voting could be a good way to motivate users to search the bug-tracker first before reporting a duplicate".
    • Joel thinks that the decision may rest in the hands of the ESC.
    • Lots of requests for voting to be enabled
    • If we enable voting, then we need to decide what votes on a bug *means* in terms of actual development
      • How do we actually use it?
    • Bjoern: One possibility would be to turn high-voted items into Easy Hacks (if possible)
    • Bjoern: Right now devs are having periodic issues keeping up with our current set of Hard Hacks. Adding another set of responsibilities would put even more work on their shoulders.
    • Robinson: How do other projects deal with voting in their bug trackers?
    • Bjoern: In Launchpad (Ubuntu's bugtracker) there is an "Affects me" button for users. If several users mark a bug thusly, it will increase the "Bug heat"
    • Several upvotes by different users could help us confirm even UNCONFIRMED bugs (by sheer numbers)
    • Much less scary to upvote a bug than change other options
    • Bjoern: If we enable voting, we (TDF) should have a blog post explaining how the voting will work.
      • Ask Marketing guys to write the blog post -- they're much better at phrasing.
    • ACTION: Bjoern will ask Tollef if we can change the text on the voting feature to something like "This bug affects me"
    • ACTION: Bjoern/Petr: Will take this proposal to the Dev call tomorrow (April 11)

    NEW ITEM: Formal Structure (Joel)

    • Joel thinks it's time to have a formal structure for QA
    • If others agree then first step is to vote for positions (Chair, Vice-Chair & Secretary)
    • Might want to postpone so we can chat with Joel
    • Bjoern: In general, the BoD is against this type of hierarchical structure. We had problems with it in OOo
    • A "QA committee" would be better (perhaps "QA Core Team"?)
    • Bjoern: The BoD gives power to the ESC to run the LibreOffice project, and the ESC hands out powers to individuals
    • Robinson: Without a hierarchy, I often don't know who to ask for help or who can give me power to do something
    • Robinson: If individuals need to talk to the ESC for power, then we need to tell volunteers that from Day #1
    • ACTION: Bjoern will create a proposal for a mailing list or email contact where people can contact the BoD or ESC and ask for help using TDF infrastructure or funds
      • (e.g. "Who can open a Talkyoo room for me to have a Design meeting?" or "How can I get $100 to do X?")

    NEW ITEM: QA Call Consistency (Joel)

    • If call cannot be attended by at minimum 3 people, call should be canceled until next meeting
    • Changing times around becomes confusing both internally and to our users who we are trying to encourage more participation
    • This being said, we should aim to finalize a time that works for all or most of us
    • Joel's preference is later, such as 1800 UTC/GMT any week day, but earlier works if it makes it easier for everyone else
    • If we put a hard minimum of 3 people, most calls would be canceled
    • If there aren't many people on a call, punt on important Action Items until the next meeting
      • If there are only 2 people in a call, don't bother with formal minutes, just collaborate as best as you can, make a note that the call happened, and punt the entire agenda forward.
    • If the author of an Agenda Item isn't present and we don't understand the purpose, PUNT on it!
    • NOTE: If we change the QA call time we should ping User:Marcpare or the Marketing/Mailing List so that the EventsCalendar can be updated.

    NEW ITEM: General Structure of QA (Joel)

    • How much hierarchy are we accepting?
      • This stems from questions such as "can we just move this page", can one person answer this or is it expected a vote, or going to the original author?
    • Regarding the wiki, if you want to do something, just do it
    • AGREED: If there's conflict over layout or edits on the wiki, postpone the changes until we can talk about it during our next scheduled QA meeting. If the wiki changes cover more than QA pages, schedule the discussion for the next ESC meeting.

    NEW ITEM: Add BOLD statement to each FDO mail sent out to not reply via mail (Steve Bell)

    • Too many users reply via mail and clutter the bug tracker with useless information.
    • Maybe disable mail replies completely (only possible if bots can be whitelisted).
    • Regarding blocking email: If a user tries to reply via email, will we lose information? Will some people who would give a reply by email not bother with the extra step of going to Bugzilla?
    • Suggestion: Add a warning message that tells users not to not quote the original email text.
    • ACTION: Bjoern will ping Tollef and ask if emails can include the line: "If you reply to this bug by email, please do not quote this entire email in your reply"

    NEW ITEM: Update the whiteboard/keywords page (Robinson/Joel)

    • Joel wants this Action Item assigned to him.
    • Not sure which page -- this one? QA/BugTriage
    • ACTION: Joel will update the whiteboard/keywords page

    NEW ITEM: How should the BugReport and Bug Documentation wiki pages be organized? (Robinson)

    • There are a lot of wiki pages related to Bug Reports, including
      • BugReport
      • BugReport_details
      • Many BugzAssHlp pages (e.g. BugzAssHlp_Writer_long)
    • How do these and other report-related pages fit together?
    • Bjoern: This is a complicated topic and could easily the entire hour of one of our meetings
    • POSTPONE discussion
    • ACTION: Robinson will organize a separate call when Rainer, Rob, and other interested parties can figure out a plan here.

    NEW ITEM: Establish 'End of Life' for LibreOffice releases (Robinson)

    • Some discussion on the mailing list.
    • Our interpretation of 'End of Life' should match other projects (i.e. "No more releases, no more support")
    • Create set of tasks to be completed when build EOL'd:
      • Update wiki pages
      • Remove version from picker in FDO
      • Bulk-update bugs in FDO with this version?
    • Good discussion ongoing on the mailing list
    • Likely to reach consensus soon
    • AGREE: Punt until next meeting
    • ACTION: Follow-up at next QA Meeting to make sure that we've resolved this issue

    New Action Items (Proposed at the Meeting)

    NEW ITEM: Use an online collaborative editor for minutes so that they can be viewed as the call progresses (SteveBell)

    • Interesting idea
    • Florian R: Google hangouts with Google Docs / Google Drive
      • Public G+ hangouts might encourage people to join
      • One problem: With G+ hangouts we are forced to use Google, so this option probably has no chance because of the one downside
    • ACTION: Robinson will investigate options and will try to use such an editor for taking minutes at the next meeting

    NEW ITEM: SI-GUI (Florian R.)

    • Server Install GUI
    • From now on I will try to give updates on this program for testing on Windows. Ideal for asking for input :)
    • ACTION: Florian R. -- Update Wikipage

    NEW ITEM: Windows QA guys (For all from Florian R.)

    • Especially at the beginning (or at the end) of the call there should be a "Windows heavy" part [I prefer at the beginning] because most of the people in the call use Linux (Florian R's opinion)
      • Hopefully this will encourage many more people to join our meetings
    • ACTION: Florian R. will lead discussion on how to encourage Windows QA guys to join our meetings

    NEW ITEM: Q&A for QA (Florian R.)

    • Also preferably at the beginning
    • Answering questions from new triagers and invite them to join the whole call
    • ACTION: Florian R. will lead discussion on proposed call section: Q&A for new triagers


    • ANNOUNCEMENT: Our next meeting will take place in our usual time slot on Friday, April 19th, unless otherwise noted on the QA/Mailing List.


    • Meeting adjourned at: 15:12


    Swag Pricing


    • Delivery is included in all CustomInk prices.


    • T-Shirts
      • Custom Ink: Gildan Ultra Cotton White T-shirts, 2-color front,
        • Quantity: 1 ( Large ), $20.75
        • Quantity: 60 (10 S, 10 M, 30 L, 10 XL), $438 ($7.30 each) Delivery included
      • Custom Ink: Same as above, but green shirt:
        • Quantity: 1, $24.75
        • Quantity: 60, $510 ($8.50 each)
    • Polo Shirt
      • CI: Ultra Club Pique Polo - Forest Green, Embroidery Printing: 1 Side,
        • Quantity: 6 (Minimum order) $273.48 ($45.58 each)
        • Quantity: 20 (5 M 10 L 5 XL): $560 ($28.00 each)
    • Hats
      • Custom Ink: Baseball cap (Gold), Green/Black printing,
        • Quantity: 12 (Minimum order) - $308.28 ($25.69 each)
        • Quantity: 50 (50 Adult) - $707 ($14.14 each)
    • - Mugs
      • CI: Ceramic Mug - White, Screen Printing: 1 Color,
        • Quantity: 72 (Minimum order) - $365.04 ($5.07 each). (If we get 100, $4.71 each)
    • - Posters
    • - Pens
      • CI: Bic WideBody Retractable Pen (black ink) - White / Forest, Screen Printing: 2 Color,
        • Quantity: 300 (Minimum order) $375 ($1.25 each)
    • - Pins
    • - Patches
      • American Patch: 1" x 4" patch, Green twill, marrowed border,
        • Quantity: 50: (Minimum Quantity) - $95.50 ($1.91 each)
        • Quantity: 200: $176 ($0.88 each)
      • American Patch: 1" x 3" (or 2" x 2") patch, Green twill, marrowed border,
        • Quantity: 50: (Minimum Quantity) - $75 ($1.50 each)
        • Quantity: 200: $134 ($0.67 each)
    • - Hoodies
      • CI: Jerzees 50/50 Hooded Sweatshirt - Kelly, Screen Printing: 2 Color,
        • Quantity: 6 (Minimum order) (3 M 3 L) - $202.62 ($33.77 each)
        • Quantity: 25 (5 S 5 M 10 L 5 XL): $507.75 ($20.31 each)
      • CI: Gildan Zip Hoodie - Irish Green, Screen Printing: 2 Color,
        • Quantity: 6 (Minimum order) (3 M 3 L) - $258.06 ($43.01 each)
        • Quantity: 25 (5 S 5 M 10 L 5 XL): $738.75 ($29.55 each)
    • - Laptop cases
      • Logo Sportswear: Design Gemline Portfolio Professional, Black, Quantity: 6: $143.70 ($23.95 each) (Free Shipping)
    • Stickers
      • CI: 7.5 in. x 3.75 in. Rectangular Bumper Sticker - White, Screen Printing: 2 Color,
        • Quantity: 250 (Minimum order) - [Image fits twice, so potentially 500]: $355.00 ($1.42 each, or if doubled-up, $0.71 each)
    • Roll-up/Pop-up Banners (request from Thorsten; not for contest)
      • These are expensive.
      • Banner Stand Pros has a pretty cheap one: Econo Stand, Economy Banner: Smooth Blockout Vinyl, 33.4" x 79" - $139.00
      • Cheapest one from Displays2Go is: ECBST33BN, Pop Up Banner Stand with Full-Color Custom Graphic: 33.25" x 77" - $215.94

    Extension Bugs

    Talkyoo Alternatives

    • Robinson, Joren, and Thomas Van Der Meulen tested WebRTC via and it worked very well for us.
      • One potential issue is that WebRTC is largely a peer-to-peer audio/video chat system, and we haven't yet figured out how to set up a WebRTC <-> phone bridge that would be needed by members like Joel.
    • As it turns out, Joel liked the IRC meeting, so Talkyoo becomes less important.
    • Robinson: Setting up a quick test of Talkyoo with Petr (who is the one with the admin access), Joel, and Joren
      • This test should tell us if Talkyoo is reliable enough for us to do phone-based conference calls.
      • April 3 - Robinson/Joel/Joren tried to test Talkyoo, but didn't have the admin access code.
    • Robinson: Trying to get in touch with a tech representative of Talkyoo to see if we can connect with FLOSS software (WebRTC? XMPP? Something else?)
      • Skype support is completely unreliable (per Floeff)
      • Even if we had Skype support, we'd still want a FLOSS-friendly way to connect to the calls
      • Floeff points out that we may not be able to get phone + computer connectivity: "the problem, however, is that all solutions I found so far mean that we have to decide to either use computers to connect, or phone. Mixing both is not possible. Reason is that we would have to buy dial-in numbers in foreign countries on our own, which is extremeley expensive.".
    • Mumble might be an alternative. Downside: requires extra infrastructure (just added that for completeness, Steve).
    • April 5 - Test of Talkyoo with Joren + Joel + Floeff was successful.
      • Joren used a Google account to connect to Talkyoo via Google Hangout (not ideal, but a temporary hack just to get our QA Team members connected)
      • Phones and computer connection were both clear and worked well.