QA/Meetings/2014/July 16

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    Meeting of the QA Team

    previous - next

    Date and Time (UTC) 2014-07-16 17:30 UTC
    G+ Hangout
    Chair Robinson Tryon
    Secretary Robinson Tryon





    Joel (jmadero), Robinson (colonelqubit),
    Jay (jphilipz), Joren (jorendc1), Florian R. (Reisi007)

    Talkyoo Room Number 537138


    Agenda + Minutes


    Content from the meeting itself ("the minutes") will be displayed in blue boxes like this.

    Before we Start

    A few minutes before we officially start the call, we'll try to have a few people on hand to help assist newbies set up their teleconferencing gear, get things muted, and log on to all of our communication channels:


    Put start time and attendees list in the table

    IRC Minutes

    EXPERIENCING PROBLEMS WITH GOOGLE HANGOUT TODAY ---> Falling back to IRC chat (No Talkyoo meeting today)

    jorendc: then probably wiki text hates you
    jmadero: really really really hate it
    jorendc: how come?

    • colonelqubit laughs

    jmadero: jphilips: if you can't see the problem with 4.3, I quit on bibisecting it
    jmadero: because I always screw it up
    jmadero: I butchered it this time
    jmadero: and now don't know how to fix it
    jmadero: I added a new item and everything went awry
    jorendc: lol
    jorendc: that's a long link/title
    colonelqubit: jmadero: think you added content inside a comment

    • colonelqubit had trouble finding german beer here

    jorendc: eating now, will join after that

    • jorendc lasagna time o/

    jmadero: niiiice
    colonelqubit: just budweiser for me
    jorendc: Is wine okay too

    • jorendc takes a sip of great German White wine

    jmadero: German....
    jmadero: blah - [beep]ing world cup
    jphilips: think i need to restart the net as nothing in google in working
    jorendc: jmadero: you mind inviting me to the hangout ?
    Reisi007: jmadero: ouldn't start the video call because of an error.
    Reisi007: Please try again in a few moments.
    jphilipz: jmadero: about that bug you asked about, just open the file in 4.1 and then 4.3 and you should easily see the problem
    jmadero: jphilipz: I can't see the problem in 4.3

    jmadero: wth is going on
    jmadero: is google hangout?
    colonelqubit: Like groundhogs
    colonelqubit: Who's in the hangout?
    Reisi007: jmadero: Couldn't start the video call because of an error.
    Reisi007: Please try again in a few moments.
    jmadero: setting up a new one

    colonelqubit: Please Stand By -- Technical Difficulties
    Reisi007: colonelqubit: ^^

    • colonelqubit tells jorendc1 to hang out!

    jmadero: jphilipz: join new room
    jphilipz: jmadero: uploading a screenshot for you
    jmadero: we're 10 minutes behind schedule, let's get this started
    jmadero: Reisi007, jphilipz, jorendc1
    colonelqubit: we'll always have paris....I mean IRC as a fallback
    Reisi007: Liongold: Updated CSS right now
    Reisi007: jmadero: Couldn't start the video call because of an error.
    Reisi007: Please try again in a few moments.
    jmadero: so apparently google hangout sucks today
    jmadero: Reisi007: try setting up a new one on your side
    jphilipz: crashed again
    Reisi007: Link
    jphilipz: google hangout
    Reisi007: oh
    Reisi007: same error
    Reisi007: other service?
    Reisi007: or do we type?
    Reisi007: //we need our own service
    Reisi007: ^^
    jmadero: let's try again in 5 and then if that fails let's do IRC
    Reisi007: jmadero: lets do 5 min IRC
    jmadero: sure, Robinson can start in a moment

    • Reisi007 is trying G+ in the background

    jmadero: agenda:


    ------ We'll use IRC for now -------
    '(start: 17:44 UTC )

    jorendc1: +1
    colonelqubit: wait, nevermind. we don't need etherpad for this
    colonelqubit: Okay, who's in the meeting?

    • jmadero raises hand
    • jphilipz raises his hand
    • jorendc1 raises his hand

    colonelqubit: cool
    jmadero: let the meeting begin!
    colonelqubit: Okay

    ----> Project Management
    colonelqubit: We now have a QA project in redmine
    colonelqubit: does everyone have an account?

    • colonelqubit looks arund

    colonelqubit: around
    jmadero: yup
    jphilipz: i dont
    jmadero: need to get comfortable with it
    jmadero: jphilipz: get one
    jmadero: free

    • Reisi007 is in

    jphilipz: whats the purpose of it
    colonelqubit: jphilipz: we can use it to keep track of TODO items, etc..
    jphilipz: okey dokey

    • jphilipz wonders if he has anything TODO

    jorendc1: colonelqubit: also action items of our calls?
    jorendc1: I mean, all action items, or only the big ones?
    jmadero: that's a good question
    colonelqubit: jorendc1: Yes, some ACTION items are good
    jmadero: I'd say any that are lingering and big enough not to get done fast
    colonelqubit: We can keep track of our open ACTION items by just querying redmine -- that could be handy
    jmadero: like "Joren will email Joel to say Germany should have lost the World Cup"
    jmadero: not on redmine
    jorendc1: colonelqubit: so we should use ACTION-RM or so?
    Reisi007: @all: Nothing new about the dev guys who raised their hands
    colonelqubit: what's the RM?
    colonelqubit: oh, redmine
    jorendc1: yes
    colonelqubit: naw, I think we'd just put stuff in Redmine
    jorendc1: so we know we have to create a RM issue for that
    colonelqubit: if the # of todos in redmine filed against QA gets to big, we can start to think about a specific prefix to use
    jorendc1: okay, and who's going to create the issues in redmine, to one who is assigned to the task during the call or is that you ?
    colonelqubit: jorendc1: I guess I'd probably do it at the end of the call
    jorendc1: great +1
    jmadero: lol I feel bad about that setup
    colonelqubit: or if the task already exists, we can just link to it during the call
    jmadero: but I guess once the initial pain in the ass backlog is done

    • colonelqubit nods

    jmadero: I think new action items per call is <5 total
    jmadero: generally
    colonelqubit: Any other q's re: redmine?
    jmadero: so how are we grouping them?
    jmadero: like is every item a new ticket
    jmadero: even if they are very similar
    colonelqubit: jmadero: sure
    jmadero: okay sounds good
    colonelqubit: I'm happy to use them and then throw them away
    jmadero: yeah sounds reasonable
    jorendc1: indeed, with a clear scope so we can close them 'as fast as possible'
    jorendc1: we all know the endless bug reports
    colonelqubit: jorendc1: feel free to open sub-items, if that helps to keep track of progress
    jmadero: and then I don't think we have to discuss every action item
    jmadero: like "whiteboard wiki is done" no need to talk about it unless we need additional feedback
    colonelqubit: yep
    jmadero: or if it's a bigger task and we want to celebrate
    jmadero: should cut some time off call
    jorendc1: +1

    ----> UNCONFIRMED bugs
    colonelqubit: Down to 962 from 985
    jmadero: on that
    colonelqubit: Numbers are looking good
    jmadero: right after this call a 60-120 minute blitz
    jmadero: we'll ping dev list to see if any bored developers want to help
    jmadero: just confirming, nothing else
    jorendc1: I'm in
    colonelqubit: I was vaguely following conversation about our triaging methods/closing bugs
    jmadero: ditto
    colonelqubit: what was the result of that?
    jmadero: guy offered no solution
    jmadero: just complained that we close bugs when users report them shitty
    jmadero: he got the same reply from everyone
    jorendc1: ah yes, was a gentle rant as far I can see
    jmadero: and he never replied back
    jmadero: that workflow works well
    colonelqubit: heh
    jmadero: and I see no reason to change it
    jorendc1: agreed
    jmadero: and if that means we miss a nasty bug one of these days - you know that sucks
    colonelqubit: Sounds good -- I just wanted to check in with y'all and make sure we're on the same page
    jmadero: but everyone knows
    jmadero: I believe strongly that users have some responsibility in this chaos as well
    jorendc1: well, our working method did survived all his rant
    jmadero: I liked we all gave basically the same reply
    jorendc1: so I guess our base is pretty solid
    jmadero: even though we didn't plan that
    jphilipz: got disconnect, bad connection today for some reason
    colonelqubit: jphilipz: no worries
    colonelqubit: what was his last quip about melting ice?
    jmadero: lol I didn't see anything about melting ice
    Reisi007: ice? like ice cream colonelqubit
    Reisi007: hangout still not working
    jmadero: his statement boiled down to if the instructions are a little manageable, QA should take the time and energy to reproduce every document from scratch
    jmadero: without asking users to provide examples
    Reisi007: jmadero: I read the thread and I didn't reply because I was red hot
    jmadero: I was irritated as well
    colonelqubit: The comment was "Let some moderate heat melt your ice field."
    jmadero: lol who knows
    jmadero: makes me thinks he was a bit loony
    colonelqubit: I thought it was some pun, but over my head it went
    colonelqubit: okay, moving on
    jorendc1: lets not waste our time with his comment anymore. I think we proved with his 'gentle rant' our work method is solid

    ----> Regression watch
    Reisi007: colonelqubit: one nasty bug fixed today

    Regressions in 4.3 not in 4.2:
    colonelqubit: up from 37 to 41
    Reisi007: nice to have it in .0
    jmadero: Reisi007: #81110?
    IZBot: LibreOffice-Chart normal/medium RESOLVED FIXED Threaded 3D chart rendering ... tdf#81110
    jmadero: nope not that
    jmadero: #81113
    jmadero: the insert external one?
    jmadero: oh okay
    Reisi007: fdo#idk
    jmadero: didn't know about a writer crasher

    • colonelqubit shrugs

    Reisi007: fdo#81333
    colonelqubit: neither do I, but good to hear that we've got a fix
    IZBot: LibreOffice-Writer major/high RESOLVED FIXED Selecting table when comment present on page crashes Writer tdf#81333
    jmadero: but glad it's resolved

    Regressions in 4.2 not in 4.1:
    colonelqubit: Regression count for 4.2 is up to 99 (from 85)
    Reisi007: jmadero: agreed
    jmadero: colonelqubit: ouch
    colonelqubit: 99 regressions, and we ain't fixed one
    jmadero: but maybe mostly just good QA work
    jmadero: I'm not convinced it's actually climbing
    colonelqubit: hopefully yes
    jmadero: how many marked as Major+
    colonelqubit: numbers are 65, 85, 99
    jmadero: ...ouch
    colonelqubit: so slowing down at least
    jmadero: lol half full kind of gu
    jmadero: y
    jphilipz: must be all my doing

    Total open bibisected
    colonelqubit: Total open bibisected bugs is up to 108 (from 95)
    jorendc1: great job jmadero
    colonelqubit: I'll nudge the devs again
    jorendc1: colonelqubit: great
    jmadero: yeah - I think that we should prioritize those
    jorendc1: I think michael S. is doing a great job here
    jmadero: and all regressions
    jmadero: according to the flowchart
    jmadero: then at least devs can try to tackle the more serious ones
    jorendc1: I think Michael S. is one of the biggest regression hunter
    jmadero: yeah I've seen him very active
    jorendc1: my kudo's to him
    colonelqubit: Perhaps we should chat w/him about what else we can provide?
    jmadero: colonelqubit:

     ACTION: Joel will dig through bibisected and regressions confirmed bugs and prioritize according to flowchart

    colonelqubit: good, good

    colonelqubit: NeedAdvice: down to 29 (from 32)
    colonelqubit: I'll continue to chip away at that stack
    jmadero: yeah my suggestion is we pause on adding more
    jmadero: for now let's just skip hard ones
    jmadero: let that number get manageable
    jmadero: then bug devs again
    jmadero: maybe once it's under 15 or something
    jmadero: we can just add a few
    jmadero: vs. giving them 50 bugs and saying "please please please"
    jmadero: at least let them pretend like they are catching up
    colonelqubit: I try to take a handful to them when things aren't too busy in the ESC call
    colonelqubit: but most of the bugs that make it that far just make them groan or sigh
    jmadero: lol
    jmadero: if a dev can't understand it
    colonelqubit: Many of them are know/expected problems
    jmadero: tell them to be more aggressive with NEEDINFO
    colonelqubit: *known
    jmadero: and if that's the case, mark them as NEW
    jmadero: and let it be
    jmadero: just get them out of Unconfirmed
    colonelqubit: Sure
    colonelqubit: I think the problem is that they often exercise some weird aspect of the code, and while what they do might not be very common, there is debate about whether the bug is kosher or not
    colonelqubit: But I agree: Good to either get them in NEEDINFO and get feedback from user, in NEW if we know it's a problem we want to tackle (eventually), or just have them ping another dev if it's unclear if it's actually a bug or if it's our bug
    jmadero: yeah, hopefully if we stop adding, we can at least get like -3 a week or something
    jmadero: that's a reasonable goal
    colonelqubit: jmadero: I'm okay with the current #s -- I'll try to get it down closer to ~15, as you mentioned

    ----> LibreOffice Updater
    jorendc1: colonelqubit: just want to mention: interesting comment of SteveBell on the update topic. tdf#68274#c5
    IZBot: bug 68274: LibreOffice-Installation enhancement/high NEW provide better update mechanism (was: Use Sparkle update with Stable / Beta / Nightly channels to keep users on the latest releases on macOS)

    • colonelqubit goes to read bugzilla

    colonelqubit: jorendc1: "Kendy suggests using Mozilla's software updater"
    jphilipz: sorry guys but i gotta run to the airport, was hoping the meeting would have been finished by this time
    jorendc1: colonelqubit: not sure, but you were investigating options for a kind of branches, right?
    jorendc1: (stable, master, ...)
    colonelqubit: jorendc1: yes, that would be great
    jorendc1: colonelqubit: so just want to mention that here
    jmadero: colonelqubit: maybe talk to ESC about it
    jmadero: ?
    jmadero: the update mechanism
    jmadero: see if they have thoughts
    colonelqubit: I believe we brought up the idea of using Mozilla tooling for that, but I can't recall why it didn't go forward
    colonelqubit: I think it's a great idea
    jmadero: gotcha
    Liongold: I'll do install it. About the update, maybe Opera got some info out, if you're interested.
    jmadero: Opera is closed source
    jmadero: so I'm sure their stuff is not MPL

     ACTION: Bring up proposal to use Mozilla updater tooling for LibreOffice (Robinson)

    Liongold: I know. But they wrote about some utility which helps about patching or something.
    Liongold: If you want I'll find the post.
    jmadero: ah
    colonelqubit: Liongold: Got a link handy?
    jmadero: sure, we've been searching for a better updating mechanism for some time
    jmadero: I think everyone in QA thinks updating is a nightmare
    jmadero: outside of ppa
    colonelqubit: "a better" -> "an"
    Reisi007: jmadero: not that bad on windows with si-gui
    jmadero: sure but that requires futher steps
    jmadero: which is fine, it's a workaround
    jmadero: ideally it works within the software
    jmadero: and you can select a branch
    colonelqubit: +1
    jmadero: including pre-release branch
    Liongold: jmadero: colnelqubit: They mention something called bsdiff
    jmadero: Opera updater
    Liongold: Tell me if it's good when you have time to read it....
    Liongold: They also mention UAc, no code but explanation.
    colonelqubit: bsdiff is vaguely familiar
    colonelqubit: I'll bring the topic to ESC and then we can go from there
    Liongold: Ok, glad I can help.
    colonelqubit: IF anyone would like to send me some notes/ideas before tomorrow, I'll read them over
    colonelqubit: then we'll see what the devs say

    ----> Bugzilla Migration

    • jmadero sighs

    colonelqubit: no news from my side. I've been wrapped up with OSCON and the Boston Hackfest lately
    colonelqubit: jmadero: let's chat about figuring out a schedule
    colonelqubit: I'll have some time in August to dedicate to the process
    jmadero: it's going to get harder and harder for me to find time
    jmadero: just being honest, I had the summer
    colonelqubit: but we do need to coordinate between Infra, Norbert, Joel, me, etc..
    jmadero: multiple emails ignored
    colonelqubit: yeah, I know
    colonelqubit: We'll make it happen
    jmadero: sure, worst case we do it in Bern
    Reisi007: jmadero: extracted it a bit more, so integration is easier
    colonelqubit: jmadero: or in Boston
    jmadero: colonelqubit: but in August, weekends are rough now, after August 15 my schedule becomes really rough for at least a month
    colonelqubit: (at least the planning)
    jmadero: yeah, I'm fine with that
    jmadero: Friday night maybe
    colonelqubit: jmadero: okay, perhaps 2nd half of September might be sanest idea
    jmadero: before people arrive Saturday
    jmadero: we talk about planning at least

    • colonelqubit nods

    jmadero: and ping those who need pinged a 100 times
    jmadero: until we get a commitment

    • jmadero prepares armor, shield and sword

    colonelqubit: +1
    jmadero: I bet FDO guys are irked
    jmadero: we bugged them a bunch
    jmadero: said we were there

    ----> Bibisect and Bibisect GUI
    jmadero: no news as far as I know
    Reisi007: colonelqubit: no news
    colonelqubit: Reisi007: any news from you?

     ACTION: Joel will poke the new guy again on email that showed up with dev experience
    • colonelqubit nods

    jmadero: see if I can get him happy again
    jmadero: god that sounds terrible
    jorendc1: lol
    colonelqubit: jmadero: sentence trying are write you?
    jmadero: ...ol
    Liongold: lol
    jmadero: Captainmajid: any time for a bug squashing session after our meeting, tends to be a bit more entertaining when we go as a group
    jmadero: plus more satisfying seeing the #'s drop fast
    jmadero: next item

    ----> Hackfests
    colonelqubit: The Boston Hackfest will be in a week and a half
    colonelqubit: Planning a few activities, including some intro to QA:
    colonelqubit: If any of you have suggestions, please include them there
    jmadero: and if anyone is around that weekend
    jmadero: please join QA channel - we'll have at least some online stuff going on
    jmadero: including hopefully google hangout
    jorendc1: if I do have time, I'll surely jump in

    • colonelqubit warns jorendc1 about breaking LibreOffice during the hackfest

    Liongold: I'll try as well.... from Malta of course

    • jorendc1 looks away
    • jorendc1 knows from nothing

    jorendc1: knows nothing* jeez
    jmadero: it's okay, no one speaks English well in this chat anyways
    colonelqubit: That 'innocent' routine ain't gonna work this time!

    • colonelqubit bleeps and bloops

    jmadero: jorendc1: soms ben je boos dat Engels de dominante taal in de wereld?

    ----> ( Frozen Items)
    colonelqubit: Anyone want to discuss one of our Frozen/Long-term items?
    jorendc1: jmadero: lol, please stop that google translate crap
    jmadero: lol
    jmadero: colonelqubit: looking now
    colonelqubit: I thought it was the Sweedish Chef
    jmadero: nothing on those frozen items here
    jorendc1: I think the sentences the Sweedish Chef forms are better constructed then English->Dutch in Google Translate
    colonelqubit: Ok, then let's move to the New Item

    ----> NEW ITEM: Demonstrate our Interoperability
    jmadero: one is a brainstorming event, maybe we can actually discuss next call
    colonelqubit: preach!
    jmadero: so I'd love to somehow demonstrate our interoperability more clearly
    jmadero: including where we fail

    • colonelqubit gets out his brain slicker for the brain storm

    jmadero: so my idea is to somehow track lots of things - and provide test cases
    jmadero: and show interoperability
    jmadero: so for instance "basic text in one paragraph, nothing special"
    jmadero: I see a long list of tests
    jmadero: but let's think about how and then go from there
    jmadero: right now I think there is just a lot of FUD out there about where we are
    jmadero: and honestly, we don't know where we are
    colonelqubit: So you're talking about compatibility tests?
    jmadero: yes, but stripped down to the most basic level
    Reisi007: jmadero: LibO has unit tests
    jmadero: in some very organized fashion, that we can keep adding to
    Reisi007: automated
    colonelqubit: Some kind of programmatic proof that we can properly handle a variety of documents in ODF, DOCX, etc.. ?
    jmadero: Reisi007: are those easy to add to?
    Reisi007: jmadero: coding
    jmadero: blah
    jmadero: I want something that many in QA can contribute to
    Reisi007: jmadero: or the test script
    Reisi007: which pulls from FDO
    colonelqubit: Unit tests aren't all bad
    jmadero: sure, so let's talk about it next call
    jmadero: hopefully via voice
    jmadero: not IRC
    jmadero: but I'd love to have like 5,000 really basic test cases
    colonelqubit: with a little training, I think that Joel and others could start to write some unit tests
    Reisi007: jmadero: yes
    Reisi007: colonelqubit: agreed
    colonelqubit: I think that we do need to think about the overall message, as Joel says
    jmadero: so that's me, lol I want something that "many" can contribute to
    jorendc1: indeed, I know on writer-side (ooxml etc) for every fix in the docx section, an unit test is added
    jmadero: and we need to be transparent
    jmadero: I mean blogs
    jmadero: marketing
    jmadero: the works
    colonelqubit: Indeed
    jmadero: to really discuss where we stand as a project
    Reisi007: jmadero: script that
    jmadero: and have easily accessed samples for the public to see
    colonelqubit: So we have a few different motivations/groups that use LibreOffice
    jorendc1: but please don't forget it do consume CPU time during build
    jmadero: "oh yes, clearly this works well"
    jorendc1: so we might now want to 'randomly' test something
    Reisi007: needed 1) a PC 2) libo 3) file + expected result in 2 folders
    jmadero: or "shit, that particular thing is broken"
    jorendc1: and test it 1000x due overlapping test cases
    jmadero: LibreOffice and MSO will be required
    Reisi007: another tool we need
    jmadero: okay let's talk about it live next call
    jmadero: but that's my brainstorming idea
    colonelqubit: +1
    jorendc1: +1
    jmadero: and I've suggested similar things in private behind the scenes
    jmadero: others have agreed that we could use some clarity in this aspect
    colonelqubit: I'll be seeing Italo at OSCON next week
    jmadero: both internally and publicly
    jmadero: like we know image handling is "mangled"
    colonelqubit: I'll try to find time to chat w/him about some of the aspects
    jmadero: but who knows how bad it is without clean sample cases
    colonelqubit: I think our biggest win is to promote it as an overall user experience
    colonelqubit: that we're doing this so that our users can experience maximum interoperability with their peers, with

    ----> NEW ITEM: Whiteboard Naming Conventions
    jmadero: okay now whiteboard, there are multiple things here
    Reisi007: jmadero: Bibisect is bad
    Reisi007: bibisect and bibisectRequest
    Reisi007: +1
    jmadero: so let's start with the easy one
    jmadero: what does interoperability mean
    jmadero: is it just ooxml and older mso files
    jmadero: or does it include like rtf, html
    Reisi007: jmadero: compatibility with other formats
    jmadero: etc...
    jmadero: is it "anything with any other format"
    jmadero: I always thought it was just the major competitor
    jmadero: meaning doc/docx, etc...
    jmadero: yup
    colonelqubit: okay, now go to town
    jmadero: so thoughts on interopability - this would add to our clarity/transaparency
    jmadero: if we start using this status more
    jmadero: so is it every format not equal to odf
    jmadero: or it is the major competitor filter
    colonelqubit: I'm a big fan of KISS
    jmadero: ?
    jmadero: lol I'm hearing silence
    colonelqubit: Keeping it simple
    jmadero: and I'd love to have this finalized and done
    Reisi007: jmadero: keep it short and simple
    jmadero: what's that mean?
    jmadero: in this case
    colonelqubit: Well I'd like to have consistency, so I'd push Filter:xxx more
    colonelqubit: that being said, I believe that devs will grumble
    jmadero: colonelqubit: so my thought is we'd have Filterocx, and then "interoperability" also
    jmadero: but if it was Filter:HTML, then no interoperability
    jmadero: so you could easily query every single interoperability issue
    jmadero: and ignore those other not so popular formats
    jmadero: basically my argument is we are mostly concerned with odf, then ooxml, then microsoft old format
    jmadero: and lastly, those other formats
    jmadero: so highlighting all issues with MSO with "interoperability" is nice
    colonelqubit: So what do we use 'interoperability' for right now?
    colonelqubit: i.e. are we consistent?
    Reisi007: jmadero: colonelqubit : As I won't remember/ use them no vote from here
    colonelqubit: Reisi007: you won't remember what?
    jmadero: colonelqubit: we are not consistent
    jmadero: that's why I brought it up
    Reisi007: colonelqubit: the filerocx thing
    jmadero: Jay is using it for everything
    Reisi007: I love typos
    Reisi007: ^^ or they love me
    jmadero: or do we just want to "retire" interoperability
    jmadero: and swing fully to "Filter:XXX"
    jmadero: stupid faces
    colonelqubit: Standardize, standardize
    jmadero: Filter : XXX
    jmadero: so interop gone?
    colonelqubit: (is my suggestion)
    colonelqubit: New QA folks and new users don't know what 'interoperability' means
    jmadero: so every other filter status should be retired
    jmadero: for instance rtf_filter
    colonelqubit: QA/Bugzilla/Fields/Whiteboard#interoperability <-- NOT intuitive
    jmadero: and we should move 100% to Filter : XXX
    jmadero: I'm happy with that
    jmadero: can we get a quick vote
    jmadero: +1
    colonelqubit: I really feel like the way that we use Bugzilla is bespoke and esoteric
    Reisi007: pls lowercase
    jmadero: I'll deal with devs
    jmadero: Reisi007: let's deal with that next
    jorendc1: +1
    jmadero: for now just the filter isssue
    Reisi007: filter:xyz
    colonelqubit: For long-time QA and devs, there's just comfort with what we know, but that serves as a limitation to new participants
    Reisi007: not Filter:XYZ
    colonelqubit: and means that what info is tagged is less useful
    jmadero: colonelqubit: sure but the reality is no one new is adding these
    jmadero: and if experts can quickly go through 100 bugs and add "filter : ..."
    jmadero: it'll help organize
    jmadero: Jay has been doing some good work here
    colonelqubit: oh, i'm not suggesting that new people add them (at least not at first)
    jmadero: and I know some devs like it
    colonelqubit: I'm saying that new people can't *read* the current descriptors on bugs
    jmadero: filter : docx seems fine?
    colonelqubit: "Filter:XXX" is much more readable
    jmadero: yeah let's do it
    jmadero: that's manageable
    jmadero: good?
    colonelqubit: Is 'filter' the right prefix?
    jmadero: yeah I was told that by devs
    jmadero: before I suggested extension
    jmadero: MStahl said Filter
    jmadero: or Bjoern
    jmadero: one of them
    slacka: So I think I found a strange bug/behavior in calc
    colonelqubit: I mean, it makes sense w.r.t. how our code is formatted
    jmadero: slacka: give us a few
    jmadero: finishing a meeting
    jmadero: yeah I think it's obvious
    jmadero: people see filter: docx
    jmadero: they know what it means
    colonelqubit: (side note: We did have...might STILL have... a couple of different filters for one format, but I think that's mostly going away)
    colonelqubit: And I think that was just export filters
    jmadero: I'm happy with the proposal
    jmadero: and if we push it hard - I will
    jmadero: devs will accept it
    jmadero: and sooner or later appreciate it
    jmadero: good there?
    jmadero: so now caps
    jmadero: Reisi007 clearly has an opinion here
    jmadero: I'm happy where it is
    jorendc1: colonelqubit: no, we do have a different filter for SVG files if you do file>open or insert them as an image
    jmadero: just wanted to figure out if we need/want to change it
    jorendc1: colonelqubit: but it's a minority
    jmadero: but filter we're just talking about the things after .
    colonelqubit: Yep, so the proposal is to use "[Ff]ilter:XXX" to describe bugs that relate to a given filter/format
    Reisi007: jmadero: a second, switched device
    jmadero: so .svg would be filter : svg
    jmadero: yup
    colonelqubit: (no spaces, just to be clear)
    jorendc1: filtervg (without spaces I hope)
    jmadero: yes it keep sadding smileies
    jmadero: filtervg

    • colonelqubit same-fives jorendc1

    jmadero: so caps
    jmadero: single word, lower case
    Reisi007: " filtervg"
    jmadero: more than one CamelCase
    jmadero: filter = 1 word?
    Reisi007: islandCase
    jmadero: gah, changing it again
    colonelqubit: I'd like to see consistency from one word to two
    colonelqubit: So yes, either "Camel" and "CamelCase" or "island" and "islandCase"
    jmadero: right now we have been using CamelCase for some time
    jmadero: to go back and change those will suck
    jmadero: and devs will get email pings
    jmadero: etc...
    Reisi007: jmadero: ok, it is just error,prone
    jmadero: I don't see how it's worse than islandCase
    colonelqubit: does that make sense?
    jmadero: so right now we're neither of those
    jmadero: we're island, CamelCase
    colonelqubit: I know, and it's another source of confusion
    colonelqubit: take mediawiki -- it uses Capital and CapitalCamelCase
    jmadero: bibisect, BibisectRequest
    colonelqubit: (okay, so it doesn't enforce the latter part, but it does upper-case all first words in page names)
    jmadero: bibisected*
    jmadero: so, what the solution, we accept what it is
    jmadero: or we switch one
    colonelqubit: I'm a big fan of consistency
    colonelqubit: is it confusing to have things like 'needAdvice' ?
    colonelqubit: maybe that's fine
    jmadero: lol I think it looks a little goofy, but not confusing
    jmadero: if that's what we decide to use
    jmadero: I'm 100% about consistency

    • colonelqubit agrees

    jorendc1: +1
    jmadero: Reisi007: why is your opinion so strong for island, islandCase
    jmadero: vs Camel, CamelCase
    Reisi007: Less error prone
    jmadero: for whom?
    Reisi007: If you write quick, you ignore the case
    jmadero: and we can monitor errors I suppose easily
    Reisi007: So you leave it small
    jmadero: but that's no good at all, then we might as well just do islandcase
    jmadero: all small
    jmadero: which to me is not bueno
    jmadero: people using whiteboard should be experienced enough to slow down a little
    jmadero: and do it right
    jmadero: whatever "right" is
    Reisi007: jmadero: no word seperation
    jorendc1: lol, lets not spend to much time discussion or we should start or end with a case lets vote for islandCase or CamelCase
    jorendc1: as long as we are consistent in it
    jorendc1: +1 for islandCase
    jmadero: yes, agreed, let's just be done with this
    jmadero: thanks jorendc1
    jorendc1: (I hate and forget always to case the first letter)
    jmadero: sure, okay fine, Robinson can we agree with this
    jmadero: I'm fine with that, consistency is more important
    jmadero: islandCase, island
    colonelqubit: I looked at Mozilla's bugzilla, and they use their whiteboard for other stuff... no help there
    jmadero: haha let's just decide!
    jmadero: 5
    jmadero: 4
    jmadero: vote closes in
    jmadero: 3
    jmadero: 2
    jmadero: 1
    colonelqubit: So jmadero what did you vote for?
    jmadero: I changed it just to get consensus
    jmadero: I vote for consistency
    Reisi007: Island case
    colonelqubit: island, islandCase ?
    jmadero: Joren and Reisi have feelings for islandCase
    jmadero: so I said fine
    colonelqubit: That's fine with me
    jmadero: okay done
    jmadero: meeting done!?
    jorendc1: okay, islandCase it is
    colonelqubit: we'll need to do some updating
    jorendc1: Neeext
    jmadero: and we can start squashing
    jmadero: I did 2 more bibisects while we did that
    jorendc1: I'm ending my build here. /me had to revert some commits that broke debug-build

     ACTION: Update tags in the whiteboard to use 'islandCase' (ALL)
     [Ed. note -- Wikipedia/Google don't seem to know about 'islandCase', so I chose 'wimpyCaps' as a descriptive term]

    Liongold: I have to go. Bye.

    • colonelqubit waves

    jmadero: Liongold: take it easy
    jmadero: jorendc1: still willing to squash?
    jmadero: might be just you and I
    jorendc1: jmadero: sure
    jmadero: let's do it
    jmadero: I'll handle Calc
    jmadero: in reverse chrono order
    colonelqubit: We should email out to QA and Dev list when we start to update the whiteboard tags, just so that everyone's on board
    colonelqubit: and knows that we're changing things

     Colonelqubit --> Will do that nowish

    jorendc1: jmadero: I'm doing writer. also in reverse chrone
    colonelqubit: I think that devs will be most happy with that
    jorendc1: jmadero: but I hope my build is done in 5 minutes
    colonelqubit: Okay, what's next?
    jorendc1: colonelqubit: +1 that
    jmadero: colonelqubit: think that's it
    jmadero: so it's filter:xxx
    jmadero: stpk;asfd
    jmadero: filter:yxy
    colonelqubit: yep
    jmadero: good
    colonelqubit: that means that things like 'perf' can be left as-is
    jmadero: yeah, that is nice
    jmadero: and bibisected
    jmadero: also consistent with keywords

    • colonelqubit sighs

    colonelqubit: don't even get me started with keywords
    jmadero: lol don't start
    jmadero: get to squashing
    colonelqubit: Okay folks, thanks for the meeting
    jorendc1: jmadero: lets discuss for 20 minutes it is biBisect or bibisect (abreviation of binary bisect
    jmadero: ....
    jmadero: shut up
    jmadero: haha

    • jorendc1 runs

    colonelqubit: I'll get these minutes formatted and out, and write something about islandCase for QA and Dev lists
    jmadero: and replacing rtf_filter, etc...
    jmadero: with consistent filter:yxy
    jmadero: oh yes
    jmadero: Jay wanted ooxml, etc..
    jmadero: I don't
    jmadero: he's not here to speak up
    Reisi007: Filter:rtf
    jmadero: if it affects more than just docx
    jmadero: no Filter dammit!
    jmadero: haha
    jmadero: filter, lower
    Reisi007: BUT could we getbthat from attached test doc
    jmadero: oh geeze, no no meeting is done
    jmadero: no more

    • jmadero screams

    colonelqubit: So in my mind the quick test for ooxml would be if the problem affects more than one type of format
    jmadero: okay fine
    jmadero: filteroxml
    jmadero: that's fine
    colonelqubit: So unless it's explicitly known at the time of bug filing, we'd just see 'filterocx'
    jmadero: yup
    jmadero: what about older doc format
    jmadero: or MSO format
    jmadero: filter:mso97?
    colonelqubit: and then later, if we determine it's more pervasive, then we can add 'filter : ooxml'
    jorendc1: jmadero: that'd be filteroc I guess?
    colonelqubit: what names are actually used in the filters?
    jmadero: if it affects doc, xls
    jmadero: etc...
    jorendc1: because mso97 = doc/xls/...
    colonelqubit: we have that filter list somewhere..
    jmadero: yes
    jmadero: that's what I mean
    jorendc1: jmadero: grouping them = WW8
    jmadero: if it affects basically all of the formats
    jmadero: no a dev replied to Jay saying that
    jmadero: he said that's just word
    jorendc1: ah yes, WinWord8
    jorendc1: grrr, I think my build is stuck on sd_html_export_tests
    jmadero: colonelqubit: I don't see anything relevant
    jmadero: for "all filters from MSO 97"
    colonelqubit: If the plan is to say 'filter : blah', then that really is talking about our import or export filter
    colonelqubit: vs. 'format : blah'
    colonelqubit: does that make sense?
    jmadero: ...I just listened to devs
    jmadero: they said the extension/filter/format whatever should be called "filter:"
    colonelqubit: Devil's advocate: What if there's a potential bug in MSO's ODF importer?
    colonelqubit: or how they handle docx?

    • jorendc1 hits colonelqubit in the eye

    jmadero: let devs deal with that
    colonelqubit: do we still label it 'Filter : docx' ?
    jmadero: we're just identifying the stuff after the period
    jmadero: yes
    jmadero: if the bug is demonstrated in .docx
    jmadero: we put filterocx
    colonelqubit: I guess either way, we're going to have deal with it ourselves -- no guarantee that they're going to patch their stuff for us/compatibility
    jmadero: this is meant to just be a simple thing to add so that we can query

    • colonelqubit totally agrees

    jmadero: ideally if every bug was marked
    jmadero: devs could have a hackfest where they say
    colonelqubit: Okay, well I guess we'll punt on the question of Word97 vs. Word2003 binary formats
    jmadero: let's make docx filters better
    jmadero: and just query every bug with that filter
    jmadero: it's not perfect, but it's a matter of time spent
    colonelqubit: We can just use 'filter : doc' for now
    jmadero: the harder we make it
    jmadero: the less likely anyone will do it
    jmadero: sounds good
    jmadero: okay dunzo, squashing
    colonelqubit: heeeee's back
    jphilipz: i'm back, i'm assuming its still going on right?

    • colonelqubit waves the flag

    jmadero: jphilipz: nope
    jmadero: we're done
    jmadero: so for your notes
    jmadero: interopability is no longer
    jphilipz: anything i miss
    jmadero: everything is moving to filter:yxyx
    jphilipz: roger
    jmadero: if it affects all of MSO, either ooxml, or mso97
    colonelqubit: DONE with meeting: 19:17 UTC
    jmadero: else we'd have filterocx
    jmadero: etc...
    jmadero: what else
    jmadero: oh yeah no more CamelCase
    jmadero: instead island, islandCase
    jphilipz: what is mso97
    jmadero: doc/xls
    jmadero: affects all those old formats
    jphilipz: okey dokey
    colonelqubit: jphilipz: I'm going to email out to the QA and Dev lists about the changes
    jmadero: and yes we know there is a difference between MSO 2000 and 1997
    jmadero: but, to make it easy
    jmadero: let devs worry about that
    jmadero: this is better than we've been in the past
    colonelqubit: okay, food time for me
    jmadero: if we mark every bug
    jphilipz: there is also mso xp and 2003
    jmadero: devs will have a much better idea of bugs
    colonelqubit: thanks all -- have fun squashing bugs!
    jmadero: yes, anything doc/xls/etc...
    jmadero: if it affects all of them
    jmadero: mso97
    jmadero: docx/xlsx/etc... (affects all) ooxml
    jmadero: so filteroxml

    Meeting ENDS

    The State of QA

    Including any Opening Discussion

    • xx- Bugzilla migration
      • Updates...
      • Re: need to reset passwords
        • Email notification ahead of migration
        • Tweak the change-password page and the front page to indicate that people will need to reset their passwords
        • Create an 'About our new Bugzilla' video as a part of our 'Intro to QA' series
    • Bugzilla:
      • SUGGESTION: Use to host Bugzilla
      • We can have both LibreOffice and some of the Document Liberation Project libraries all exist as top-level products in the bugtracker
    • QUESTION: Should we refocus ourselves as the TDF QA Team (to cover LibreOffice, DLP, etc.. ?)

    weekly status



    UNCONFIRMED bug count:

    • July 2nd: 985
    • Today: 962
    • Difference: -23
    • ACTION: Joel will come up with strategies (bloggers? other marketing?) to get us under 500 UNCONFIRMED over the summer (by the end of August)

    Regression watch (Bjoern)

    * Regressions in 4.3 not in 4.2
      • Previous Counts: 32, 37, 41
    * Regressions in 4.2 not in 4.1
      • Previous Counts: 65, 85, 99

    Topics for ESC?

    Does anyone have any topics/concerns that I should bring to the Engineering Steering Committee (ESC)? (Robinson)

    needAdvice Bugs

    needAdvice bugs

    • Previous counts: 80+, 32, 32, 29

    Pending Items

    PENDING ITEM: Auto-updates for regular users and QA Testing

    • ACTION: Investigate auto-updates for regular users and/or for QA/testing purposes (Robinson)
    • ACTION: Open discussion again re:auto-update for QA on the mailing list (Robinson)
      • Related: tdf#78592 - "LibreOffice-Installation enhancement/medium NEW UI: Provide RSS feed for torrent downloads" (Joel)

    PENDING ITEM: Bugzilla Migration etc.

    • ACTION: Organize time to stress-test new Bugzilla VM (Joel)
    • ACTION: Make sure to suppress outgoing email during our testing of the test Bugzilla (Robinson)
    • ACTION: Perhaps add Simple HTTP Auth (htaccess) control restricting access to (Robinson/Norbert)
    • ACTION: Resolve url for hosting our Bugzilla instance (Joel)
      • Deal with acronym if using url (tdf# ?)
    • ACTION: Set up call and/or thread(s) with the useful people on a mailing list (Robinson)
      • May 22 - Started process
      • June - Need to follow-up again with key people re: current progress (Robinson)

    PENDING ITEM: Bibisect Repositories

    • ACTION: Chat w/Bjoern, etc... re: updates to bibisect repos (Robinson)
      • Propose docs on testing w/3.3.0 separately to place bugs in pre-LO category (Robinson)
    • ACTION: Provide documentation for mac bibisect on wiki (Norbert)
      • Perhaps ask Cloph for help re: Bibisect stuff, and keep Norbert's cycles free for Bugzilla migration

    To review:

    • IDEA: Add bibisect into regular Developer workflow
    • IDEA: Create graph/tool to show which builds contain a given commit

    PENDING ITEM: GUI for Bibisect

    • ACTION: Review BibiGUI -- any Windows/C# Python volunteer dev (Bjoern)
      • June 19 - Joel may have found a volunteer?
    • ACTION: Create an EasyHack a bug for the process of rewriting the existing C# code in Python (or Java) (Florian R.)


    • ACTION: SI-GUI: Contact the people running "interesting" Windows tinderboxes and ask for their assistance (Florian R.)

    PENDING ITEM: Hackfests

    • ACTION: Check on status of LibreOffice building in the cloud for hackfests (Robinson)
      • Included in the notes for hackfest planning

    Update on:

    Long-term/Frozen Pending Items

    These are long-term or frozen items (i.e. on ice until something else happens) that we don't want to forget about...

    PENDING ITEM: MozTrap Localization

    • ACTION: MozTrap translation (GUI and tests) continues to be high-priority for QA (Needs someone to shepherd)

    To review:

    • Other project who might want to work on translating GUI w/us?

    PENDING ITEM: Feedback pages

    • ACTION: Sophie will shepherd native-lang versions of Feedback page

    To review:

    • Next steps for NL versions (bug #?)

    PENDING ITEM: US Merch Store

    • (Future progress)

    PENDING ITEM: Most Annoying Bug List

    • ACTION: Joel will propose stricter guidelines for what qualifies as a MAB

    To review:

    • How is the test going? (using the 'Priority' field in Bugzilla)


    PENDING ITEM: Talk to CS Department/others at University

    • ACTION: Put up a message on the message board at his University and see who is interested (Joel)
      • Need to meet w/Charlie R. to talk with his Uni contacts as well

    New Action Items

    All items proposed between meetings go here

    Whiteboard Consistency and Use

    New Items (Proposed/Discussed at the Meeting)

    NEW ITEM: Currently we use lower case for 1 word, CamelCase for more than 1. Should we change or is it not worth the effort? Also, should we move away from things like odf, rtf_filter, etc.... and move 100% to Filter:XXX? Interopability - is this just for major formats (ooxml, and the old MSO fomats, or anything other than odf? Lastly, Jay's been really active with whiteboard status - big thank you! (Joel)


    • ANNOUNCEMENT: Our next meeting will take place... July 30th (Wednesday) at 17:30 UTC, unless otherwise noted on the QA/Mailing List.


    Put meeting-adjourned time in the table


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