Agenda + Minutes
Content from the meeting itself ("the minutes") will be displayed in blue boxes like this.
Before we Start
A few minutes before we officially start the call, we'll try to have a few people on hand to help assist newbies set up their teleconferencing gear, get things muted, and log on to all of our communication channels:
Put start time and attendees list in the table
NOTE: We're trying something a bit different today -- we're going to have a much shorter meeting (15-30 min). We may have the meeting in IRC, as that's more accessible for some.
We'll touch on a few metrics such as UNCONFIRMED bug count and regressions, and then we'll have each person in the meeting bring up whatever QA topics they'd like to address.
Some people like the current call time on Wednesdays, but if there's enough interest in change, we'll do it.
- UNCONFIRMED count
- Regressions #'s
- NeedAdvice #'s
Topics from last time:
- tdf#81759 - LibreOffice-BASIC normal/medium NEW the Speech Editor Siri of macOS 10.9.4 does not work with Libreoffice 220.127.116.11
- Multimedia in macOS
- LibreOffice Bern Conference?
- LibreFest Bug-Triaging event in Seattle - Advertising!
- Bugzilla migration
- SI-GUI Rename?
colonelqubit: So, anyone have preferences on staying in IRC or moving to Talkyoo? -- 01:34:29 PM
colonelqubit: QA Meeting -- we'll start in a couple of minutes
sophi: colonelqubit: I prefer IRC because I need to eat something :)
colonelqubit: fair enough
Liongold: sophi: http://vm-1.liongold.kd.io/silverstripe/SilverStripe-cms-v3.1.5/libreoffice-contributor-maps/?key=1460a060a12aa6aefef74a7204209eb81f3a6194&token=c1e2ac65709e8515f353e2024f2c3cad
Liongold: Ok, dinner time. Then I'll be silent so as to not interrupt the meeting
sophi: Liongold: I've changed my email address
colonelqubit: Liongold: no worries
colonelqubit: So first off, it's great that Liongold is working on the contributor map
colonelqubit: I think that's going to be very helpful for the QA Team and other teams to see where everyone is from
Sweetshark: colonelqubit: so?
- Sweetshark was stuck a few days back in backlog.
- Sweetshark finally found the solution to timetravel. ;0
colonelqubit: So before I start rattling off some stats and numbers, let's take a look at who's here
colonelqubit: So we have me. Sweetshark is in some kind of time-travel conundrum. Sophie and Liongold are getting food
colonelqubit: who else is listening in?
mjayfrancis: *waves* - 1:40AM local, so my brain isn't working very well :)
- sophi can fortunately type while eating ;)
- colonelqubit hadns mjayfrancis a pillow and a cup of coffee
colonelqubit: (take your pick)
colonelqubit: So let's look at some numbers. UNCONFIRMED bugs are up again to 904
sophi: colonelqubit: conference effect?
IZBot: News from fdonew: [Bug 83726] Applying Styles Does Not Consistently Set Character Properties <https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=83726> || [Bug 83725] Font-Size changes ignored for special formatted text field <https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=83725>
jmadero: FIX MY BUG! BLOCKER, NIGHTMARE ^^
colonelqubit: yes, I think that everyone being away was definitely a drain on our resources
jmadero: oh perfect timing, that was NOT planned
colonelqubit: aha! a wild joel appears
jmadero: nope, in copyright, not here
sophi: even growing the unconfirmed bugs ;)
colonelqubit: just an echo
colonelqubit: As we're all getting increasingly busy, recruitment is going to be a big deal
colonelqubit: I've got some future events lined up, but in the meantime I think we should continue to draw from the users list and other sources
colonelqubit: Perhaps jmadero can give us some tips on the best way to bring in new contributors
jmadero: pinging good bug reporters directly (email them a nice message) or go to the user list with a specific question (as I just did about my bug)
jmadero: personal touch is always better
jmadero: and perhaps time to plan another bug squashing event
sophi: jmadero: one is planed for October
jmadero: probably start advertising it aggressively in a week or two
jmadero: sophi: is that a bug hunting or bug finding session?
jmadero: I mean bug hunting or bug squashing
colonelqubit: jmadero: so just a direct personal email is what you use?
sophi: jmadero: or November, it's a bug hunting for first 4.4.0
jmadero: often times yes
jmadero: with a specific task
jmadero: maybe a small query with a few bugs
sophi: colonelqubit: jmadero: do you blog on the planet? it could be a good way also to spread the work
colonelqubit: colonelqubit: I want to blog, but I just can't find the time right now
jmadero: sophi: not enough time to blog these days, but I do occasionally
jmadero: I'm linked in
jmadero: I'm afraid it's not as useful as we hope
jmadero: most non contributors don't follow the blog
jmadero: and those people we want to become contributors
sophi: jmadero: lot of people follow the planet, so inviting them could work
jmadero: ah okay
jmadero: maybe a small query and a blog post
jmadero: so people reading can just click the link and start
jmadero: probably newer reported bugs
sophi: jmadero: yes :)
Sweetshark: jmadero: also the planets recent posts are now on the libreoffice.org frontpage ...
jmadero: ah! that's fantastic
colonelqubit: If we want to be successful at recruiting and onboarding new QA people, I think we need to reduce the training effort
colonelqubit: perhaps a couple of screencasts could make it much more of a watch-and-follow process
sophi: colonelqubit: and also Moztrap could help here to drive people to tests, then to more advanced QA tasks
jmadero: colonelqubit: I tend to find that just giving two steps is best
jmadero: "set to NEW if you can confirm, set to WORKSFORME if you can't"
jmadero: everything else is just extra
Sweetshark: colonelqubit: yes they do (talking from the screencasts development did). but its a _lot_ of work.
jmadero: and "leave a short message with your OS and version of LibreOffice"
colonelqubit: Right now I think we're really tentative about setting stuff to WORKSFORME. Perhaps we should be a bit more bold there
jmadero: I am quite bold about it - but that's with a little bit of experience
jmadero: oh and NEEDINFO
jmadero: "if instructions aren't quite clear, set to NEEDINFO"
colonelqubit: Sweetshark: okay, I'll try to figure out how much time a screencast will take, and then maybe just make a couple so we can start to iterate on quality
colonelqubit: More numbers
Sweetshark: colonelqubit: from my experience you can easily assume ~one evening for a good 5 minutes thing ...
mjayfrancis: I haven't used the "easy" bug submission assistant, but if it doesn't already, perhaps some text would be useful to make clear that the point is first to help another person to reproduce the bug?
mjayfrancis: I see a lot of bugs go past that fail on that front
colonelqubit: I think the text of the BSA says "Steps to reproduce the problem"
colonelqubit: mjayfrancis: we could try to improve that -- any suggestions you have would be appreciated
Sweetshark: colonelqubit, mjayfrancis: yes. the BSA has "steps to repro"/"expected b."/"actual behaviour" thingies
mjayfrancis: I'll take a look in the daylight and get back to you
colonelqubit: Okay, quickly looking at other numbers
colonelqubit: Regressions in 4.3 not in 4.2 -- up to 56 from 49
Liongold: If I may get in...
colonelqubit: Regressions in 4.2 not in 4.1 -- stable at 107
colonelqubit: Liongold: yep, what's up?
Liongold: The BSA has a search while the user is filling in the form which shows him if there are similar bugs.
Sweetshark: What possibly might help the BSA would possibly interlinking with ask.l.o and an link to a freenode #libreoffice-qa webchat ...
Liongold: Maybe add some more text inviting those who find their bug to confirm it?
colonelqubit: Bringing bug reporters into IRC could be helpful, but I'm not sure if we have consistent coverage
colonelqubit: I think we're doing better these days
Liongold: Also most likely, they will be sent to bugzilla again
colonelqubit: Liongold: not sure what you mean. Do you mean having the bug reporter provide a persuasive argument why someone should repro it?
jmadero: another idea btw for contributors - is sharing contributors, having some "cross over training"
slacka: Could anyone help with a bug? I just tested https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=83664 on a 3rd laptop and had no issue reproducing it
IZBot: bug 83664: LibreOffice-Writer normal/medium UNCONFIRMED VIEWING: Assertion failed! Error with Win-x86@39 build
colonelqubit: slacka: maybe a bit later
slacka: but the tester thinks it's a corrupt download issue or something...thanks colonel
sophi: slacka: we are currently in a meeting
Liongold: colonelqubit: I'm talking about proposing to send users to IRC. Most likely, someone will tell them open a bug report.
colonelqubit: Liongold: I guess that all depends upon what our strategy is
Sweetshark: Liongold, colonelqubit: I thought more along the lines of "If you want to check back with the QA team if there is anything missing or wrong with your report, you can go to #libreoffice-qa (link)" at the end of the BSA ...
colonelqubit: Liongold: if we have a policy where we accept user q's into a channel (#-qa or not)
Liongold: Anyway, I retire again. If there's a need for work on the BSa, tell me.
sophi: Sweetshark: +1
colonelqubit: Sweetshark: I think one of the big problems is that we have a lot of users who just aren't sure where to start
colonelqubit: I field a couple of inquiries daily from users who are posting to the Q&A feedback form on the Ask site
colonelqubit: I think some of that comes from them not being sure how to log in to the Ask site or (perhaps) to our bug tracker
colonelqubit: Clearer up-front documentation about how to file a bug report and what information we need to reproduce it might lessen that support burden
Sweetshark: colonelqubit: being the devils advocate here: Do you really want to train someone that cant figure out a OpenID-login to the state that they are useful to the QA team? Id guess that is a lot of work ...
sophi: colonelqubit: but that is supposed to be done by the BSA
colonelqubit: All I know is that we have more work right now than the team can handle
colonelqubit: And we have a lot of users posting in the wrong spot
sophi: colonelqubit: so what we have to improve is the way users check for their problems
colonelqubit: So that seems to tell me that we need
1) More QA team members
2) Better docs
sophi: colonelqubit: and ask them to make it reproduce first on ask or on the users list or anywhere it could be reproduced
Sweetshark: colonelqubit: so we have a/ too many report for us to confirm/reject in a good way b/ people who write bug reports of limited use in the wrong place that would give us even more report if reported in the right place
Sweetshark: colonelqubit: IMHO ignore b/ for now and focus on a/
jmadero: docs are an endless hole - they are nice, but time consuming, and currently we have more important things to accomplish
colonelqubit: Ok. I feel back about ignoring those inquiries, but I'll follow your lead
mjayfrancis: If users are going to ask.l.o first, is there any procedure whereby someone scans questions for probable bugs? Or is it just a matter of waiting for someone to jump up and down about an issue
mjayfrancis: and, same question wrt non-English questions
colonelqubit: mjayfrancis: I used to work on getting potential bugs from Ask -> Bugzilla, but as Joel and Bjoern say, the problem is so big we're already overloaded with the existing stuff that makes it into Bugzilla in English
mjayfrancis: English questions are perhaps one thing, but it seems to me that if we also ignore all the foreign language questions, there's a disconnect where the non-Englishly-inclined may have a hard time getting problems taken notice of
sophi: mjayfrancis: in the FR lists, we filter what could be a bug and reproduce it on several OS and narrow the version number before filling it, but we miss more teams like this in the NLPs
Sweetshark: mjayfrancis: my feeling is that at some point, someone comes along with a link to a existing bug report and asking "maybe you see this bug?". Often the bugzilla bug already has more useful info at that point than the ask.l.o question.
colonelqubit: So from a QA perspective, we'll focus on Bugzilla. If Ask users can figure out how to use Bugzilla, then we'll pay attention
Sweetshark: colonelqubit: sounds good to me.
sophi: colonelqubit: +1 too
colonelqubit: FWIW, I think I've been the only person responding to English inquiries to the Ask Q&A form. If we're not going to allocate time to deal with those inquiries, I suggest that we just disable that tool.
Sweetshark: colonelqubit: We might have an EasyHack about helping people out on ask.l.o (from the QA teams point of view, thats an excellent exercise without much mentoring needed -- once someone is doing that, we should just try to pick them up).
colonelqubit: perhaps evgeny can help with that
colonelqubit: Sweetshark: that could be useful. I know that oweng and a few others are active there
Sweetshark: colonelqubit: right. and oweng is essentially running the show on libreofficeforum.org, so good to have him happy and motivated IMHO.
sophi: he is also on the users@list
colonelqubit: sophi: Okay, I'll touch base with oweng and see if he can help feed contributors into QA
sophi: colonelqubit: ok, let me know if I can help with him
colonelqubit: sophi: Sure, I'll email him and cc you
sophi: colonelqubit: ok :)
ACTION: Robinson will email oweng re: recruiting for QA from users list and Ask.LO
colonelqubit: Okay, didn't want the meeting to stretch out for too long here
sophi: colonelqubit: np, I've finished my diner ;)
colonelqubit: Bugzilla migration work is still underway
colonelqubit: I'll be installing Bugzilla on our VM starting next week. If anyone would like to help, just drop me an email
colonelqubit: We'll do some load testing after that
colonelqubit: what else..
sophi: colonelqubit: if you think I can help by testing, just ping me
colonelqubit: Big thanks to everyone who gave me bugs for the ESC
colonelqubit: sophi: (will do)
Sweetshark: colonelqubit: do you have some upload space from infra to put the VM?
colonelqubit: Sweetshark: upload space?
colonelqubit: Sweetshark: there's a VM for the bugzilla test
Sweetshark: colonelqubit: then you could upload the VM image there ... and possibly tell e.g. the QA list "new bugzilla is there, come and play with it" ...
colonelqubit: Sweetshark: yep, that's the plan
Sweetshark: colonelqubit: great
sophi: colonelqubit: so count me in when it's ready
bfoman: anyone know/can explain why UX bugs will be moved to RedMine?
sophi: bfoman: they are moving all there workflow to redmine
colonelqubit: bfoman: AFAIK, the Design team wanted to use Redmine for organization
sophi: bfoman: forum, bugs, wiki, etc
Sweetshark: bfoman, sophi: thats on hold -- we will be discussing this on the ESC
colonelqubit: They said that they'll keep LO bugs in bugzilla, but we'll see what happens
sophi: bfoman: they found it more convenient for their work to have all in one place
bfoman: bugs both in bugzilla and redmine doesn't make sense
sophi: Sweetshark: ah, just had the result of their meeting where they said they finally moved
colonelqubit: Once we get bugzilla migrated, then we can actually do things like create new projects
bfoman: from qa point of view it is more convenient for my work to have all bugs in one place
colonelqubit: bfoman: certainly
Sweetshark: bfoman, sophi: having some bugs on RM and others is horribly confusing to newcomers and will cause a lot of friction along the lines of two entrenched teams yelling at each other "I wont get a bz login, use our shiny RM" -- "I wont get a RM login, use our shiny bz"
colonelqubit: And from the QA side of things, we'll be focused on Bugzilla
sophi: bfoman: we all want that :)
Sweetshark: (not to mention having a tiny design wiki that nobody will know about because it is shadowed by the TDF wiki)
colonelqubit: Sweetshark: you mean like having the TDF wiki and the help wiki, and they have the same primary icon and the same favicon?
sophi: Sweetshark: I agree, but the so small team needs a way to work and if it's redmine that is better for them, I tend to support that
Sweetshark: sophi: yeah, as said: we will discuss in the ESC call tomorrow.
sophi: Sweetshark: ok
colonelqubit: So, anything else? Other topics?
Sweetshark: sophi: IMHO the best way would be to convince them that we could make our own bugzilla fix most of their issues ...
Sweetshark: sophi: but lets see
sophi: Sweetshark: but they won't have a forum and a wiki at the same place
bfoman: i can't imagine to say a bug reporter to register at yet another tracker, because ux guys are there
bfoman: see also is nt a solution
colonelqubit: bfoman: the Design team said in Bern that they'd do the translation back and forth
colonelqubit: but with such a small team (or any team, really) that's not a long-term solution
bfoman: waste of time and scarce workforce (ux decisions are taking forever)
Sweetshark: sophi: having them in a wiki on RM will almost certainly mean that the design pages on the TDF wiki will be unmaintained (and thus hurt ux team growth severly) ...
bfoman: another wiki? doesn't make sense
colonelqubit: This brings up a bigger issue: Aside from the teams themselves, who's encouraging both team growth and inter-team coordination?
Sweetshark: sophi: from the 10000 feet view, it is more important to grow the ux team than to get the most of the current tiny team ...
sophi: Sweetshark: I don't know, they have tested it since more than a month and are more happy with this way of working, so it's something to take care too
jmadero: ...this stuff seems slightly outside of the scope of QA
Sweetshark: sophi: yeah, well. lets not discuss by proxy ;) -- lets punt this to the ESC team.
colonelqubit: Well I guess we'll see after we chat in ESC tomorrow
jmadero: every team has to find volunteers and all that fun stuff
sophi: Sweetshark: agreed, but again, they can't grow if they don't feel at ease with there workflow
jmadero: we successfully did this in QA - others need to find their ways
jmadero: we can't be responsible for everyone
colonelqubit: jmadero: I hope they do :-)
jmadero: Jay has joined the design team
jmadero: as have a few others
jmadero: sure - just can't overstretch our team
jmadero: to get concerned about every other team
sophi: jmadero: this is my concern ;)
colonelqubit: I think that's part of the problem: A lot of insular teams
jmadero: colonelqubit: sure - but our job right now is not to deal with this during a QA call
jmadero: if some volunteer wants to spend their own time
jmadero: to get comfortable with every team
colonelqubit: Maybe it's not the QA team's role here, but there should be some body tasked with that role
jmadero: and then help onboard people to every team
jmadero: "should be"
jmadero: sure a volunteer would be fantatsic
jmadero: I'm not jumping up for that job ;)
colonelqubit: Anyhow, not the QA's job. We've got plenty of other stuff to deal with!
colonelqubit: So for now we'll be insular and focus on QA stuff.
colonelqubit: Anything else, folks?
sophi: jmadero: again, that's part of what I try
jmadero: sophi: +1
jmadero: sophi: I'm going to try to get more comfy with documentation stuff
jmadero: so I can be a little familiar with their procedures
jmadero: but QA alone takes hours and hours
jmadero: and yet we still fall behind
sophi: jmadero: I'm on it just now :)
colonelqubit: Okay, sounds like everyone's had a chance to talk
colonelqubit: Thanks for showing up. Our next meeting will be on September 24th at the same time - 02:42:06 PM
sophi: colonelqubit: ok, thanks for running it :)
colonelqubit: I'm now off in search of greener network pastures
Sweetshark: jmadero: cant be a volunteer -- at least not one who is not a project veteran. If you have two teams fighting to use their pet toy tool and you make a call on that, there will always be bad blood.
jmadero: Sweetshark: I think it's just about being comfortable onboarding new volunteers
jmadero: not usurping the procedures to be equal
Sweetshark: jmadero: but IMHO the BoD has to have an eye on that. In the past there were a lot of these introduced e.g. in the infra team and we need to make sure those tools are not causing friction and duplicting functionality for essentially personal preference.
jmadero: sure, understandable
sophi: all: look at Regina's mail on the marketing list
Sweetshark: colonelqubit: did you talk to cloph about the tagging releng stuff already?
colonelqubit: Sweetshark: yes, I've been fighting with hotel wifi networks here
colonelqubit: luckily there's a conf network downstairs, so I'm heading there right after this and hopefully it will give me more love
Sweetshark: colonelqubit: great
The State of QA
Including any Opening Discussion
- xx- Bugzilla migration
- Re: need to reset passwords
- Email notification ahead of migration
- Tweak the change-password page and the front page to indicate that people will need to reset their passwords
- Create an 'About our new Bugzilla' video as a part of our 'Intro to QA' series
- SUGGESTION: Use bugs.documentfoundation.org/ to host Bugzilla
- We can have both LibreOffice and some of the Document Liberation Project libraries all exist as top-level products in the bugtracker
- QUESTION: Should we refocus ourselves as the TDF QA Team (to cover LibreOffice, DLP, etc.. ?)
- ACTION: Send thank-yous to Xamarin and Michael's brother (Joel)
UNCONFIRMED bug count:
- July 30th: 712
- Today: 822
- Difference: 110
- ACTION: Joel will come up with strategies (bloggers? other marketing?) to get us under 500 UNCONFIRMED over the summer (by the end of August)
Regression watch (Bjoern)
- ACTION: Joel will dig through bibisected and regressions confirmed bugs and prioritize according to flowchart
Topics for ESC?
Does anyone have any topics/concerns that I should bring to the Engineering Steering Committee (ESC)? (Robinson)
- Previous counts: 80+, 32, 32, 29, 23, 24
- ACTION: Investigate auto-updates for regular users and/or for QA/testing purposes (Robinson)
- ACTION: Open discussion again re:auto-update for QA on the mailing list (Robinson)
- Related: tdf#78592 - "LibreOffice-Installation enhancement/medium NEW UI: Provide RSS feed for torrent downloads" (Joel)
- PUNTED: Bring up proposal to use Mozilla updater tooling for LibreOffice (Robinson)
- ACTION: Organize time to stress-test new Bugzilla VM (Joel)
- ACTION: Make sure to suppress outgoing email during our testing of the test Bugzilla (Robinson)
- ACTION: Perhaps add Simple HTTP Auth (htaccess) control restricting access to https://bugzilla-test.documentfoundation.org/ (Robinson/Norbert)
- ACTION: Resolve url for hosting our Bugzilla instance (Joel)
- Deal with acronym if using tdf.org url (tdf# ?)
- ACTION: Set up call and/or thread(s) with the useful people on a mailing list (Robinson)
- May 22 - Started process
- June - Need to follow-up again with key people re: current progress (Robinson)
- ACTION: Chat w/Bjoern, etc... re: updates to bibisect repos (Robinson)
- Propose docs on testing w/3.3.0 separately to place bugs in pre-LO category (Robinson)
- ACTION: Provide documentation for mac bibisect on wiki (Norbert)
- Perhaps ask Cloph for help re: Bibisect stuff, and keep Norbert's cycles free for Bugzilla migration
- IDEA: Add bibisect into regular Developer workflow
- IDEA: Create graph/tool to show which builds contain a given commit
- ACTION: Review BibiGUI -- any
Windows/C# Python volunteer dev (Bjoern)
- June 19 - Joel may have found a volunteer?
- ACTION: Create
an EasyHack a bug for the process of rewriting the existing C# code in Python (or Java) (Florian R.)
- ACTION: Joel will poke the new guy again on email that showed up with dev experience
- ACTION: SI-GUI: Contact the people running "interesting" Windows tinderboxes and ask for their assistance (Florian R.)
- ACTION: Check on status of LibreOffice building in the cloud for hackfests (Robinson)
- Included in the notes for hackfest planning
- ACTION: Update tags in the whiteboard to use 'wimpyCaps' (ALL)
- We had a discussion about filter:xxx, and not sure we found a perfect resolution...
- Also continue to clarify the use of capitals in the whiteboard, etc..
Some ideas for our possible QA Budget
- Host bibisect repo in the cloud -- use VNC to connect
- Testing builds in the cloud @ the Boston Hackfest -- good for 1-off testing, but slow for 10 bibisects in a row (Robinson)
- Perhaps a good target for onboarding (Bjoern)
- Makes things run very quickly, get people hooked
- We can spin-up a new machine for each person we're onboarding
- Daily builds (also in the cloud?)
- SDK tutorial?
- Get python community interested in LibreOffice
- Python IDE support for creating LibreOffice extensions?
- Can be beneficial for both communities
- Need to find someone in Python community to help move this forward
- Hackfest hardware
- Especially helpful when we don't have good bandwidth/stable connection
- Other items
- Crash reporter for Windows
- Moztrap improvements
- Ask sophie about a solid proposal for what could be done
- Native-lang BSA for more projects
- Biggest hurdle is getting native-lang communities to sign-up for long-term commitment to deal with bug reports (Robinson)
Long-term/Frozen Pending Items
These are long-term or frozen items (i.e. on ice until something else happens) that we don't want to forget about...
- ACTION: MozTrap translation (GUI and tests) continues to be high-priority for QA (Needs someone to shepherd)
- Other project who might want to work on translating GUI w/us?
- ACTION: Sophie will shepherd native-lang versions of Feedback page
- Next steps for NL versions (bug #?)
PENDING ITEM: US Merch Store
- ACTION: Joel will propose stricter guidelines for what qualifies as a MAB
- How is the test going? (using the 'Priority' field in Bugzilla)
- ACTION: Put up a message on the message board at his University and see who is interested (Joel)
- Need to meet w/Charlie R. to talk with his Uni contacts as well
New Action Items
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New Items (Proposed/Discussed at the Meeting)
NEW ITEM: description (your name)
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